Barenboim's CSO farewell
David Royko
and despite all the recent talk of him not planning on returning, I
have to think that what the orchestra did for him today was a direct
plea not to be a stranger. He gave a 14 minute address to the audience
before Beethoven's 9th, talking about conducting and the significance
to him of his 36-year relationship with the CSO, and ending with the
announcement that he was made Honorary Conductor for Life by them
earlier in the day, when he had his 'private' farewell with them.
The Choral Fantasy was a perfect final curtain raiser, letting DB play
solo piano, chamber music with the principles, direct the woodwinds,
and conduct--a fun summary.
The 9th was a rich, romantic performance--the orchestra gorgeous (last
night's Bruckner 9th had some of the best orchestral cello playing I've
ever heard--stunning), the soloists and chorus inspired. Clocked in at
1 hour 14 minutes, followed by a 15 minute ovation that ended only when
DB led concertmaster Robert Chen off the stage. Before doing that, he
worked his way through the orchestra, shaking hands or hugging every
single member of the CSO. Of course, he received a tusche (sp?) from
them.
A moving night, made all the more special by a superb Beethoven 9. He
will be missed. And how many music directors can end their reign with a
series of concerts like he has, including the complete Well-Tempered
Clavier?
Dave Royko
Chew Chiat Naun wrote:
> RX-01 wrote:
> > I can't wait for his next release (whatever
> > this may be) with the same forces...
>
> I fervently hope we get a recorded Mahler 9th from him before too long.
> I heard him conduct it here in Chicago a couple of years ago, and again
> in one of his CSO farewell concerts on Thursday night, and it's very,
> very special. It's also different: not at all the marmoreal, monumental
> piece we hear in most interpretations, but red-blooded and passionate
> and loving. He's completely inside the idiom, and it's not backhanded
> praise to say that I've never heard the middle movements done better.
> All the way through, his interpretative ideas are very specific -- the
> phrasing carries a wealth of meaning -- but at the same time sound
> completely spontaneous. I can't imagine another orchestra matching the
> CSO's performance of it with him, but I really would like to see this
> interpretation made available in some form.
>
> Naun.
rkhalona
David Royko wrote:
> He gave a 14 minute address to the audience
> before Beethoven's 9th, talking about conducting and the significance
> to him of his 36-year relationship with the CSO, and ending with the
> announcement that he was made Honorary Conductor for Life
Shame on the CSO. Honorary conductor for life should go to a more
deserving musician.
RK
Alex Singleton
>
> Shame on the CSO. Honorary conductor for life should go to a more
> deserving musician.
>
> RK
Seems like a very good choice to me.
Alex
GMS
A token gesture, instigated by a minority of DB supporters within the
orchestra, is turned into an "achievement" by the self-serving maestro,
to the surprise of us all. Unfortunately, the press and others will
probably not remember the word "honorary".
Mr. Royko, thanks for your compliments to the cello section. I hope
that we may meet some time.
Gary Stucka
Cellist, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
tomdeacon
There is no more deserving musician. Shame on Mr. Khalona!
TD
tomdeacon
GMS wrote:
> rkhalona wrote:
> > David Royko wrote:
> > > He gave a 14 minute address to the audience
> > > before Beethoven's 9th, talking about conducting and the significance
> > > to him of his 36-year relationship with the CSO, and ending with the
> > > announcement that he was made Honorary Conductor for Life
> >
> > Shame on the CSO. Honorary conductor for life should go to a more
> > deserving musician.
> >
> > RK
>
> A token gesture, instigated by a minority of DB supporters within the
> orchestra, is turned into an "achievement" by the self-serving maestro,
> to the surprise of us all. Unfortunately, the press and others will
> probably not remember the word "honorary".
Mr. Barenboim's history with the CSO will be remembered far longer than
any other member of the orchestra, I wager.
Hardly the most gracious words to come from your pen, Gary, I would
also suggest, regardless of your personal opinion of Daniel Barenboim.
TD
tomdeacon
Dick Sexton wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
>
> > GMS wrote:
> >> rkhalona wrote:
> >> > David Royko wrote:
> >> > > He gave a 14 minute address to the audience
> >> > > before Beethoven's 9th, talking about conducting and the
> >> > > significance to him of his 36-year relationship with the CSO, and
> >> > > ending with the announcement that he was made Honorary Conductor
> >> > > for Life
> >> >
> >> > Shame on the CSO. Honorary conductor for life should go to a more
> >> > deserving musician.
> >>
> >> orchestra, is turned into an "achievement" by the self-serving
> >> maestro, to the surprise of us all. Unfortunately, the press and
> >> others will probably not remember the word "honorary".
> >
> > Mr. Barenboim's history with the CSO will be remembered far longer
> > than any other member of the orchestra, I wager.
> >
> > Hardly the most gracious words to come from your pen, Gary, I would
> > also suggest, regardless of your personal opinion of Daniel Barenboim.
>
Which only means that you can't judge, it would seem.
TD
david...@aol.com
Gary Stucka wrote some ungracious nonsense, betraying a surprising
animus:
"A token gesture . . . "
What's wrong with that?
"instigated by a minority of DB supporters within the orchestra . . . "
What's wrong with that?
"is turned into an 'achievement' by the self-serving maestro, to the
surprise of us all."
But it is an achievement. The only thing that surprises me is your
cattiness.
"Unfortunately, the press and others will probably not remember the
word 'honorary.'"
Oh, please. The title is the sort of honorarium granted on such
occasions and forgotten soon thereafter . . . except by CSO publicists
who will continue to list Barenboim as Honorary Conductor for Life in
subscription brochures as yet one more flower in the CSO's cap.
-david gable
tomdeacon
Precisely.
TD
rkhalona
david...@aol.com wrote:
>
>The title is the sort of honorarium granted on such
> occasions and forgotten soon thereafter . . . except by CSO publicists
> who will continue to list Barenboim as Honorary Conductor for Life in
> subscription brochures as yet one more flower in the CSO's cap.
If the title means nothing (except for a political gimmick), why award
it?
I certainly hope this is not the kind of deal that Mehta got with the
IPO.
How is this a flower in the CSO's cap? The Barenboim era, when enough
time passes,
will be seen as an era of wasted opportunities for the CSO.
The good news is that he is gone, but this came sixteen years too late.
RK
sechumlib
> "Unfortunately, the press and others will probably not remember the
> word 'honorary.'"
>
> Oh, please.
Oh, please indeed. How often do orchestra MEMBERS give an "honorary"
anything to a departing conductor? This seems to me to be a tremendous
vote of confidence and respect.
It never happened in Cleveland.
Of course, I may not know what I'm talking about.
david...@aol.com
rkhalona wrote:
> If the title means nothing (except for a political gimmick)
Your bias against Barenboim is showing here. It wasn't HIS idea to
award him an honorary title, and "political gimmick" is your
interpretation. If the retiring Music Director of the CSO were a
conductor you liked, you wouldn't bat an eye that he had been granted
an honorary title on the occasion of his retirement.
>why award it?
For the same reason that all such honorary positions for life are
granted.
-david gable
jrs...@aol.com
I believe Solti was made "Conductor Laureate" upon his "retirement"
from Chicago. Wasn't this was the same honorary term that Bernstein was
granted in New York? Had the CSO bestowed the same status on Barenboim,
I think it would have rightly been considered a sign of great
affection. Anything else is kind of a makeshift title. I think Gary is
right that Barenboim was given more of a token of limited cordiality,
considering the options. However, the title "honorary conductor for
life" is juiced up just enough to recognize that DB has been a regular
presence in Chicago for a very long time.
If only a minority of DB's supporters pushed for this title, I wonder
what his other supporters thought. And overall, I wonder how many of
the musicians consider themselves DB's supporters....After so many
years, you'd think any boss would pretty much have exhausted the good
will that his underlings could extend, unless he'd radically raised
their salaries in the process.
--Jeff
alanwa...@aol.com
> Mr. Barenboim's history with the CSO will be remembered far longer than
> any other member of the orchestra, I wager.
I am sure he will be remembered longer but I suspect some of his
"moments" will have been assisted by the members of his orchestra
unless he did it entirely on his own.
Certainly he will be remembered longer than the orchestral players.
That is the way of things.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Jenn
"alanwa...@aol.com" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
This is interesting. I think for many people, the quality of
contributions by Bud, Larry, Dale, Jay, and others over the years will
be just as well remembered.
rkhalona
david...@aol.com wrote:
> rkhalona wrote:
>
>
> > If the title means nothing (except for a political gimmick)
>
> award him an honorary title,
We all know that David, that's why I blasted the orchestra in my
initial post.
>and "political gimmick" is your
> interpretation.
You actually implied in your response that it is a marketing ploy.
Hiring and firing an MD nowadays is a political decision just as much
as it is a musical one.
>If the retiring Music Director of the CSO were a
> conductor you liked, you wouldn't bat an eye that he had been granted
> an honorary title on the occasion of his retirement.
Actually NO. If the title were to mean something, it should be awarded
to someone with an outstanding record of achievement and dedication to
the orchestra.
You and I simply differ on this. I will always maintain the CSO is a
great orchestra that has deserved a much better MD than it has had for
the last sixteen years.
>
> >why award it?
>
> For the same reason that all such honorary positions for life are
> granted.
If what Gary Stucka says it's true (and we have no reason to doubt him,
or would you say he is biased too?), that a minority of DB's supporters
instigated this, do you think politics was not involved?
RK
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:1150683001.140156.317730
@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
Well, there is one oboe player who is Still remembered.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Jenn
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "alanwa...@aol.com" <alanwa...@aol.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:1150683001.140156.317730
> @i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> Mr. Barenboim's history with the CSO will be remembered far longer than
> >> any other member of the orchestra, I wager.
> >
> > I am sure he will be remembered longer but I suspect some of his
> > "moments" will have been assisted by the members of his orchestra
> > unless he did it entirely on his own.
> >
> > Certainly he will be remembered longer than the orchestral players.
> > That is the way of things.
>
> Well, there is one oboe player who is Still remembered.
lol Especially by Don Peck.
Vaneyes
rkhalona wrote:
>
> If what Gary Stucka says it's true (and we have no reason to doubt him,
> or would you say he is biased too?), that a minority of DB's supporters
> instigated this, do you think politics was not involved?
It's often a few in any endeavor or profession, that instigate or lead.
Nothing wrong with that, unless maybe you're the insecure type that
seldom has an original idea.
You have no reason to doubt Stucka, because you like what he says.
Regards
david...@aol.com
Ramon wrote: "You actually implied in your response that it is a
marketing ploy."
I don't believe the decision to award Barenboim an honorific title
was a marketing ploy. I said the only reason people will remember that
Barenboim was awarded an honorary title is because the marketing
department will list Barenboim by that title in all of their
subscription brochures. I don't believe that's why the title was
awarded in the first place.
."If what Gary Stucka says it's true (and we have no reason to doubt
him, or would you say he is biased too?), that a minority of DB's
supporters instigated this, do you think politics was not involved?"
Politics are involved in everything. Nevertheless, if the question is
why Barenboim was awarded an honorific title when he stepped down as
Music Director of the CSO, I don't think you need politics to answer
it. By far the most plausible explanation is that a sufficient number
of people felt that a gesture should be made. And there are not only
Barenboim's admirers. There are always people who feel that a
gesture should be made under such circumstances regardless of who the
honoree is. "X is retiring. We should do something for him."
Since Gary Stucka quite obviously dislikes Barenboim, I'm not sure we
can tell exactly how large or small a per centage of the orchestra was
in favor of doing something for Barenboim. But the actual per centage
is not relevant. All it would take to launch the project of honoring
Barenboim on the occasion of his retirement would be a sufficiently
enthusiastic handful of people. Couple their genuine enthusiasm with
the feeling that something should be done for the retiree simply
because he's retiring and it's easy to see how an honorary title
might come about.
Dissenting from the Barenboim enthusiasts, Mr. Stucka takes the
opportunity to complain here. Nothing criminal about that. It's human
nature. But to draw the inference from Mr. Stucka's grousing that an
evil cabal was required to secure an honorific title for so talentless
a hack as Daniel Barenboim is preposterous.
-david gable, who is very far from considering Maestro Barenboim a
talentless hack
Richard Schultz
:>The title is the sort of honorarium granted on such
:> occasions and forgotten soon thereafter . . . except by CSO publicists
:> who will continue to list Barenboim as Honorary Conductor for Life in
:> subscription brochures as yet one more flower in the CSO's cap.
:
: If the title means nothing (except for a political gimmick), why award it?
In order that they can keep putting his name on the program.
: I certainly hope this is not the kind of deal that Mehta got with the IPO.
The deal that Mehta got is that he is *music director* (not "honorary"
music director) for as long as he wants to be. I honestly do not know
how "hands on" his music direction is; I suspect that it's not very, based
on the general lack of variety in the programming. I do know that he is
very committed to the orchestra on a personal level.
On the other hand, the IPO programs *still* list Leonard Bernstein as
"laureate conductor" or some such even though he's been dead these 15 years.
So you can see that there is some marketing value in giving an honorary
title to some famous conductor.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
c47...@yahoo.com
nights. My expectations were that the potential for inspired readings
would be great on these valedictory occasions. I had attended maybe
three of Barenboim's performances during his tenure. The most
memorable was a Bruckner fifth several years ago, in which the first
movements were very well played and interesting, but then things
degenerated into a performance which was memorable only for its
mediocrity. Both the Carter and especially the Boulez performances
were truly impressive. Intensity and involvement of Barenboim and the
musicians was captivating. But in the second portion of both programs
the focus gradually deteriorated in much the same fashion that it had
years ago with the Bruckner fifth. The revealing balances in Carter
and Boulez were lost in beautiful brass sonorities that always seemed
at least one dynamic level too high, especially in the Bruckner.
Shaping of phrases was inconsistent despite sometimes histrionic
gestures from Barenboim. There were some distracting mistakes,
especially from soloists whose abilities are unquestioned.
Essentially, the performances lost effect through lack of focus and
concentration--unlike the Carter and Boulez. There were many, many
wonderful moments and much truly impressive playing. But they didn't
lead me anywhere. It seemed to me that Barenboim failed to inspire
interest, and at times even attention, from the musicians--who I think
really wanted to make these performances special. It is the
responsibility of a conductor to have a vitally clear conception and to
convey this to the musicians so that unity of purpose and interest in
realizing that vision is generated. When he steps before an orchestra
he needs to know exactly what he wants and have the capacity to
communicate his vision. But here we had two concerts where the
identical pattern of loss of interest, hence concentration, prevailed.
It was much more obvious in the Mahler, possibly because of its
greater length. Contrast this with performances by, say, Boulez of
music by Bruckner with the CSO where everyone was deeply engaged and
focused on a conception, the realization of which gripped the audience
as it unfolded--no matter what one may think of the conception
personally. Based on the few Barenboim performances I have witnessed,
I feel comfortable in saying that he is not a consistently capable
conductor because he usually fails to engage the musicians and
audience. His departure should be a positive for the orchestra. The
audience, however, looked past everything that I heard and gave him
such extended ovations that after the Mahler the orchestra finally
walked off stage in order to bring things to a conclusion. Many of the
same individuals who were thumbing through programs during the
performances were unrelentingly vociferous. Oh yes--and he got long
ovations after walking on stage, before a single note was played. So
I suspect this had more to do with civic pride than with music. But
perhaps they succeeded in making Barenboim feel good about what had
just happened. Stan Collins
Matthew Silverstein
>: If the title means nothing (except for a political gimmick), why award
>: it?
>
> In order that they can keep putting his name on the program.
I'm not sure they'll be able to do even that. From yesterday's Tribune:
"The title is only an honorific, since it does not have the sanction of the
CSO board."
Matty
tomdeacon
By their mothers, of course.
TD
tomdeacon
rkhalona wrote:
> If what Gary Stucka says it's true (and we have no reason to doubt him,
> or would you say he is biased too?), that a minority of DB's supporters
> instigated this, do you think politics was not involved?
Why should we think that Mr. Stucka is NOT biased one way or the other?
In fact, I would have thought that was "taken as read"!!!
As for politics, well, it affects everything in life. Grow up.
TD
tomdeacon
Gee. That all of a sudden makes you an expert?
> Based on the few Barenboim performances I have witnessed, I feel comfortable in saying...
Well, I don't feel anywhere near as comfortable in giving your opinions
much credit.
Sorry. But if you had shown more interest in class, you might have got
a passing grade. As it is, you flunk!
TD
tomdeacon
Don't worry.
They'll sanction it as long as the name continues to inspire people to
donate money. Money aways talks. Bigtime. The CSO did very poorly with
investments during the bubble and bust of recent years. Their endowment
is sorely in need of repair. Remember: they fired their manager as a
result of this debacle. So, the board will do ANYTHING to entice people
to donate money.
TD
Norman M. Schwartz
<c47...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1150693885....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> But
> perhaps they succeeded in making Barenboim feel good about what had
> just happened.
....not that there is anything wrong with it
Frank Berger
"Matthew Silverstein" <msil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3vikvdy70sn4.14...@40tude.net...
This would appear to shed some light on Gary's initial remarks.
tomdeacon
Frank Berger wrote:
> > "The title is only an honorific, since it does not have the sanction of
> > the
> > CSO board."
> >
> > Matty
>
> This would appear to shed some light on Gary's initial remarks.
And what light would that be, Frankie?
TD
GMS
wrote for the Chicago Sun-Times:
"Monday, June 19, 2006 -- Chicago Sun-Times, plus
CSO lauds departing Barenboim as 'conductor for life'
Musicians' statements at Barenboim's CSO Farewell
By Andrew Patner
In a move unprecedented in the 115-year history of the Chicago
Symphony
Orchestra, CSO musicians borrowed a page from their European
counterparts and voted
overwhelmingly last week to confer upon departing music director
Daniel
Barenboim the title of "Honorary Conductor for Life."
In keeping with the surprise nature of the action, the move was
announced
from the Orchestra Hall stage by Barenboim himself when he
acknowledged the
title, "with deep joy and pride, with great joy" at the end of
impromptu and
unscheduled remarks delivered before the closing half of his final
concert as music
director Saturday night.
Of the four earlier CSO music directors with the most significant
tenures,
three -- founder Theodore Thomas, Frederick Stock, and Fritz Reiner --
died "in
office" or just after their retirements and one, Sir Georg Solti, was
awarded
the title "music director laureate" by CSO management and trustees.
When Barenboim announced his plans two years ago to leave the
orchestra he
said, "I am not laureatizable." In the meantime, relations between the
complex
and temperamental music director and senior trustees and management
had
reached the point where it was unclear what official honor, if any,
would be an
appropriate one to mark the end of the Barenboim era in Chicago.
Trustee, staff,
and musician members of the search committee for Barenboim's
replacement had
also expressed concern that any move by the players bypassing
management could
jeopardize discussions with prospective successors.
These arguments and others were aired at a closed meeting of the full
orchestra on Thursday whereupon the following resolution was adopted
by a
three-to-one margin and was read on behalf of the players at a
post-concert reception
Saturday night by veteran CSO trombonist Michael Mulcahy:
"Maestro Barenboim,
"This is a difficult time for us. After so many years, it is hard to
believe
that we will no longer be sharing the transcendent musical experiences
we
have known with you. Yet we have chosen to celebrate this occasion,
not to mourn
it. We celebrate first of all our extraordinary good fortune in having
had
these years together. We will always cherish our memories of what we
have
accomplished under your leadership.
"We also celebrate because it is simply beyond imagining that this is
last
time that you will conduct us. There is too much music left to make.
"So at this time, we do not wish to say good-bye. In the eyes of the
members
of the Chicago Symphony, in our hearts and minds, you are our Honorary
Conductor for Life. In this way, we wish to thank you for all that you
have given us
in the past, and to thank you in advance for all you have left still
to give.
In introducing the resolution, Mulcahy, regarded by many members of
the
orchestra as a voice of conscience and consensus, told the crowd of
several hundred
players, CSO chorus members, staff, and trustees, that a "symphony
orchestra
is a living being and the Chicago Symphony encompasses an almost
unfathomable
amount of life. So when this orchestra encountered Daniel Barenboim,
it was
the case of a behemoth coming into contact with a force of nature." He
went on
to praise Barenboim's uniquely personal connection to the orchestra
and his
passionate, intuitive, and uncompromising approach to music.
Alison Dalton, a longtime member of the first violin section,
announced a
gift to Barenboim from the orchestra that she said the players hoped
would
commemorate "two lessons you have shared with us: Your moral center
and fearless
self-expression which eschews sentimentality, and the art you make out
of
remembering without looking back." Referring to comments Barenboim
made to the
players in their last rehearsal together, Dalton said that she hoped
that the
crystal obelisk, carved with the signatures of the 110 members of the
orchestra,
"will help the magic that will keep us in your frontal view while
leaving us
behind."
Senior concertmaster Samuel Magad then read the inscription on the
commemorative gift, "Presented in love and gratitude tour our friend
and maestro Daniel
Barenboim by his colleagues the musicians of the Chicago Symphony
Orchestra,
Saturday, June 17, 2006."
Barenboim closed the informal ceremony by saying, "I am glad that this
evening, this week, this time, is ending with joy. As I told the
musicians
privately in our last rehearsal together, I don't know if and when or
how many times
my eyes will set on them as a group, but my heart will be with them
always.
They will be my honorary orchestra for life."
Andrew Patner is critic-at-large for WFMT radio (98.7FM)."
Now, THE FACTS, quoted from a response to Patner from Steve Lester,
Chair of the CSO players' Members Committee.
"Dear Andrew,
Thank you for forwarding the articles. I am sorry to tell you that the
facts of the situation are very different than what you presented in
your article. First, DB appointed himself something that the Members
did not vote to him. It is very embarrassing that from the stage DB
blurred an important distinction and that a small cadre of devoted
supporters has provided misinformation to you. The motion as you have
it was amended by the inclusion of "consider in our hearts and minds"
because frankly, there was not consensus to appoint him Honorary
Conductor for Life. It may seem a small distinction but, in fact, it
carries significance.
Second, not so much weight should be place on this honorific. It was
an emotional expression for the purpose of saying good bye and even
that was very controversial. Trying to get the orchestra to approve
something that does the right thing by saying good bye and thank you is
difficult when there is so much history and ill feeling in the
orchestra. The meeting was held with only fifty members in attendance,
and only 40 voted, and the vote was far from unanimous. A significant
number did not attend, wishing to avoid controversy and the wrath of
this vocal divisive minority.
Third, everyone at the meeting was asked to keep, as we always do, our
business private, and not discuss this in the press. Obviously, our
confidence was compromised by someone in the orchestra. Not only that,
but misinformation was provided by someone. It is unprecedented and
unethical that you would have and publish the wording of a motion made
in one of our meetings. And it is incorrect that you should assume that
anyone can speak for the orchestra who is not an elected
representative. Should this happen in the future I hope you would give
us the courtesy of checking your facts.
I would be happy to discuss this sutation in detail with you, as I
know you would agree that these are important concerns.
Sincerely,
Steve Lester "
My remark to this newsgroup at 6:30am after a sleepless night may
indeed have been "catty". However, I'd just been through one of the
most stressful weeks of my entire professional life, trying, as a
member of the CSO Members Committee, to seek appropriate representation
of the feelings of the entire orchestra in our Good-Bye gesture to Mr.
Barenboim. That the gesture was distorted from the stage by DB and
that misinformation continues to be distributed by a small "cadre" has
left me physically ill.
Gary Stucka
Cellist, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
tomdeacon
GMS wrote:
> My remark to this newsgroup at 6:30am after a sleepless night may
> indeed have been "catty". However, I'd just been through one of the
> most stressful weeks of my entire professional life, trying, as a
> member of the CSO Members Committee, to seek appropriate representation
> of the feelings of the entire orchestra in our Good-Bye gesture to Mr.
> Barenboim. That the gesture was distorted from the stage by DB and
> that misinformation continues to be distributed by a small "cadre" has
> left me physically ill.
First of all, I hope you take time off to recover from your illness.
Secondly, neither you, nor the other "musician" whose words have been
quoted by you, make me sanguine about the musical health of this once
great orchestra.
Thirdly, this is not the place for you, Gary, as a member of the CSO,
to air your personal gripes, washing your dirty linen in public, as it
were. Your remarks are an embarrassment to the CSO, in my opinion.
Now, go away, nurse your "wounds", and return at some future date with
a more open and a healthier mind.
TD
GMS
Dear Deac,
Washing dirty linen? No, just presenting facts for those who may be
interested.
NO ONE here needs to go away just because you arrogantly and pompously
order them to do so. BTW, when have you ever adopted an "open and
healthy mind"?
rkhalona
GMS wrote:
> >
> > Now, go away, nurse your "wounds", and return at some future date with
> > a more open and a healthier mind.
> >
> > TD
>
> Dear Deac,
> Washing dirty linen? No, just presenting facts for those who may be
> interested.
> NO ONE here needs to go away just because you arrogantly and pompously
> order them to do so. BTW, when have you ever adopted an "open and
> healthy mind"?
>
> Gary Stucka
> Cellist, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Yes, this is a free forum and the fired DJ is the last person to tell
anyone to go away, let alone to someone who contributes with substance
as opposed to drivel.
If he'd only listen to his own advice, this forum would be so much more
enjoyable.
RK
tomdeacon
GMS wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
> > GMS wrote:
> >
> > > My remark to this newsgroup at 6:30am after a sleepless night may
> > > indeed have been "catty". However, I'd just been through one of the
> > > most stressful weeks of my entire professional life, trying, as a
> > > member of the CSO Members Committee, to seek appropriate representation
> > > of the feelings of the entire orchestra in our Good-Bye gesture to Mr.
> > > Barenboim. That the gesture was distorted from the stage by DB and
> > > that misinformation continues to be distributed by a small "cadre" has
> > > left me physically ill.
> >
> > First of all, I hope you take time off to recover from your illness.
> >
> > Secondly, neither you, nor the other "musician" whose words have been
> > quoted by you, make me sanguine about the musical health of this once
> > great orchestra.
> >
> > Thirdly, this is not the place for you, Gary, as a member of the CSO,
> > to air your personal gripes, washing your dirty linen in public, as it
> > were. Your remarks are an embarrassment to the CSO, in my opinion.
> >
> > Now, go away, nurse your "wounds", and return at some future date with
> > a more open and a healthier mind.
> >
> > TD
>
> Dear Deac,
> Washing dirty linen? No, just presenting facts for those who may be
> interested.
Hmmmmmmm.
Is that what you thought you were doing? Presenting facts?
You know, Gary, you might convince your mother with that line, but not
this guy. I am far too cynical to believe in the inherent "niceness" or
"just plain honesty" of your comments.
I dare say that you would have never expressed such honesty to Maestro
Barenboim himself.
> NO ONE here needs to go away just because you arrogantly and pompously
> order them to do so.
Of course not. You can stay as long as you like.
But you have just seriously altered my impression of your value, both
to this group AND to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
With guys like you in the band, I wonder which dumbass conductor would
want to take you all on!
> BTW, when have you ever adopted an "open and healthy mind"?
You may not consider my mind open, but I do. Certainly open to new
musical experiences. Also open to the genius that is Daniel Barenboim.
But it is totally closed to the kind of negative "spin" you dished out
to this forum.
Chicago has had a strange relationship with its Music Directors. The
members of the orchestra widely loathed Fritz Reiner. Ditto for Jean
Martinon, who dared to show them how to play French music. And I will
wager that Solti wasn't exactly loved, except during the glory days
when he was leading you all to sold out CH concerts with brassy
Bruckner.
So, y'all have in your wisdom soured on Daniel Barenboim. Well, tough
shit, is all I can say. Musicians all hate they guy who stands up there
with a stick and waves it at them. But he's the guy with the brains and
the talent to go along with them and he's the one who got the job. So,
just get on with yours and keep scratching away at that instrument of
yours.
Kinda makes one wish the AFofM didn't exist at all and musicians could
get fired when they didn't cooperate with the boss. That and perhaps
put them all on minimum wage for a few weeks, just to make them
appreciate the privilege they enjoy to play music at all. And the all
wonder why no record company wants to belly up to the bar and pay for
such grudging music-makers.
What Chicago needs now is a few decades with a mediocre, third rate
conductor of no repute, just to teach them a bit of humility. Think
Boston. Think Ozawa. That should do the trick. The musicians will then
look back on the Barenboim years as though it was covered in a golden
hue.
TD
tomdeacon
rkhalona wrote:
> If he'd only listen to his own advice, this forum would be so much more enjoyable.
I doubt that very much.
Cause, you see, you'd still be here.
TD
GMS
tomdeacon wrote to GMS:
> But you have just seriously altered my impression of your value, both
> to this group AND to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
Frankly, I don't care what your impression is. If others in this group
do, that's their problem. I have merely presented FACTS that you
simply choose not to believe.
Enjoy the rest of your day, Tom.
tomdeacon
GMS wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote to GMS:
> > But you have just seriously altered my impression of your value, both
> > to this group AND to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
>
> Frankly, I don't care what your impression is. If others in this group
> do, that's their problem. I have merely presented FACTS that you
> simply choose not to believe.
No. You have presented your opinion of the facts, which is quite
different.
> Enjoy the rest of your day, Tom.
I always enjoy my days. Perhaps a little Barenboim to pick me up and
remind me how petty all of this talk really is.
TD
John Wilson
wrote:
Pay no attention to the washed-up DJ. He's merely a barnacle on the
ship of music.
John
Curtis Croulet
always enjoy getting some insight into the classical music biz from the
other side of the CD, so to speak (i.e., all I really know is what comes out
of the speakers). But I'd be very surprised if musicians are different from
other professions. If the boss is demanding or difficult, you don't like
him because he makes you work hard. If the boss is *not* demanding or
difficult, then you lose respect for him, because he seemingly doesn't care
and will accept anything you put out. For the guy at the top, it's a no-win
situation, if popularity is one of his goals. It's not clear to me what the
beef is with Barenboim, and I'm surprised that one of my friends in this
forum has been unusually blunt (for him) about not liking him. From what
little I know of them (stories and anecdotes), there has not been a single
music director or major conductor of the CSO in the last half-century who
could play and win both sides of that demanding vs laissez-faire equation.
Maybe Giulini was an exception (I've always heard they loved him in L.A.),
and I keep hearing that musicians have a lot of admiration, perhaps even
awe, for Boulez's ear and attention to detail. But neither of these were MD
at the CSO, either. I know the CSO made a lot of recordings with Solti, and
I have quite a few on my shelves, and the CSO received a lot of fame and
Grammys during the Solti years, but Mr. Watkins of this forum considered Sir
Georg to be so bad, simply as a time-beater, that the musicians of his
orchestra just ignored him (if I got this wrong Mr. Watkins, please say
so). So, I'm left wondering if the Barenboim years, too, will someday be
regarded as a "golden age" at the CSO.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
alanwa...@aol.com
A few comments. I shall have to steer away from the specific matter
because I a) have no knowledge of it and far more importantly b) have
never played for Mr Barenboim.
With great respect, I would suggest that the value of Mr Stucka to the
orchestra was determined at the point at which he won the audition for
the post, possibly against some competition.
I think it wrong to suggest that all musicians hate the guy waving the
stick. That has not been my experience at all and indeed I would
suggest the absolute opposite: I believe we are a remarkably tolerant
bunch considering what we are sometimes given to work with in sheer
terms of technical directing. Indeed, we sometimes wonder why someone
is famous for waving a stick while another is not as we may have
thought that the "another" was somewhat better at it.
I also believe musicians give performances their "best shot", sometimes
against the odds, some of which can be considerable.
Indeed it is my personal belief that I have, in fact, endured third
rate conductors who (remarkably) are not necessarily considered third
rate on the basis of their recordings and, if so, I would like to claim
a small part in helping to assist their elevation.
None of the foregoing applies to Mr Barenboim and the Chicago Orchestra
"situation" but is only offered as a general observation.
I have no idea whether Mr Stucka and others agreed with the "boss" or
not but my bet is that, whether he and his colleagues agreed with it or
not, they went along with it for the sake of the performance.
That does not mean, I think, that you necessarily have to go along with
it in extraneous musical "ceremonies" but of course you would have to
in performance. There is, I think, a considerable difference.
There is a freedom difference between performance and ceremonies and,
if, in the case of Mr Barenboim, it came to a head in the orchestra in
such a way I do not find that surprising and not a musical reflection
on the quality or capability of the players. There are wonderful
personal opinions on here: working musicians have personal opinions,
too, but that does not mean that any of us are right, merely that it is
a personal opinion.
For five years I was Chairman of a Prague "Orchestral Committee" with
(probably) far less powers at the time than anyone in the then "West"
but my wife claims that appointment was directly related to the process
of my hair beginning to fall out.
As to the American Federation of Musicians or the Czech Federation of
Artists or the UK Musicians Union (member of the latter since aged 15
and the penultimate organisation since 23) I cannot say but I have
mostly played on minimum rates (with the occasional top up if they are
desperate).
Mr Stucka will no doubt continue to "scratch away" as best he can as I
continue to "bang away" as best I can but I think on an open forum such
as this our personal opinions are equally valid (as we see them,
personally).
As a "musical" example, for instance, I happen to think that the best
performances of both sets of Dvorak Slavonic Dances Op 46/72 I have
ever taken part in (January, 1997) are by Petr Altrichter. If he was a
bit more "pushy" he might be better known.
I have played these a few times over the years but know, in recording
terms, recommendations will lie elsewhere which is fair enough.
So, maybe, we musicians have disparate thoughts?
That is a surprise?
tomdeacon
O wrote:
> Whenever Tom thinks he's drawn a paper cut, he tries to shove the shiv
> in harder. Most of the time, he only draws the paper cut. This is his
> sole amusement.
Not quite, Owen.
My other amusement is trying to figure out how an otherwise sensible
person can possibly hold the political views you have expressed on this
forum.
Both amusements keep me busy, as many are in need of "the shiv", as you
put it so Tony Soprano-ish, that doesn't leave me as much time as I
would like to your own bewildering condition.
TD
jrs...@aol.com
Thank you for the clarification. I hope you get some rest, as many of
us, like Mr. Royko, think very highly specifically of your work and
your section, not just the orchestra as a whole.
It does seem particularly unpleasant for people to publicly disagree on
how to send off the boss--someone who has been making appearances and
recordings with the CSO for more than three decades. Someone who has
shared many a kind word about the CSO musicians with the public. It
would have been nice if the details of the voting meeting had been kept
private.
Although it might compromise the search committee to have DB named
something like "honorary conductor for life", it is obvious that NOT
naming him something reasonably affectionate would have exactly the
same effect: showing the potential music director candidates that the
orchestra is deeply divided about how to put a dignified and appealing
end to DB era disagreements. That vote should have been a unanimous
"voice" vote of the entire orchestra. Anything less indeed indicates
unhealed wounds. The implication is that unrest will continue no matter
who is hired.
Audiences actually don't like to think that the close bonds of
musicmaking are at odds with real personal disagreements within an
orchestra. Such rancor should be far from their minds when they
consider purchasing tickets and when they sit down to listen. This
isn't opera, after all, where fans feed off of backstage feuds and love
affairs.
I think the compromise language was very effective and touching.
However, the "hearts and minds" bit makes very little difference. Since
this was from the musicians, and not the management, there's nothing
"official" about any of this, anyway. Isn't the unbestowed title
equally unofficial and heartfelt with or without the compromise clause?
--Jeff
tomdeacon
As do we mere observers of the musical scene.
I had no intention of casting aspersions upon your own self, Alan, as I
feel sure that you work very hard for each and every Kroner you earn in
the Czech Republic. Life is certainly no bed of roses in that new
democracy. My remarks were aimed at an American musician performing in
one of the top orchestras in the world. This person's minimum salary is
in the six figures, according to the latest information I have been
able to gather. The number of "sessions" would hardly be a burden to
those of us who have worked 60 hour weeks year in year out. The
possibility of additioanl money-making endeavours would be many and
frequent. So, the average orchestral musician - AFofM member - in the
CSO would qualify as one of the most privileged musicians on the
planet. Hardly one to gripe in a public forum about his "boss",
specially when that person is a world-renowned musician of Barenboim's
abilities. I know few musicians in all time who have been able to
perform the Well Tempered Clavier by Bach and also conduct Tristan from
memory. Who has performed all the Beethoven sonatas frequently, and
recorded them twice, and who has performed the same trick with the
Mozart Concertos. He also does a very mean impersonation of Moritz
Rosenthal when he dusts the keyboard with that pianist's Papillons.
Barenboim is perhaps the only musician ever to have masterred that
piece AND Tristan. And one could go on and on and on and on. But
everyone would be bored in the process.
Suffice it to say that Barenboim is not nobody.
Mr. Stucka, next to Barenboim, is someone whom we would like to take
the measure of. To give him his due. Unfortunately, he is one of many
and simply blends into the musical wall-paper which is the CSO on
parade.
I have no intention of diminishing Mr. Stucka's abilities, nor his
position, nor his rights as a human being, nor even his person. But
when he casts aspersions, in public, upon a musician of Barenboim's
standing, it is time to take stock of his own stature and draw the
appropriate conclusions.
Owen may take this as what he calls a "shiv". If facing up to the
reality of these two gentlemen is a shiv, so be it. But sometimes life
is tough. And we just go on.
TD
jrs...@aol.com
tomdeacon wrote:
I know few musicians in all time who have been able to
> perform the Well Tempered Clavier by Bach and also conduct Tristan from
> memory. Who has performed all the Beethoven sonatas frequently, and
> recorded them twice, and who has performed the same trick with the
> Mozart Concertos. He also does a very mean impersonation of Moritz
> Rosenthal when he dusts the keyboard with that pianist's Papillons.
> Barenboim is perhaps the only musician ever to have masterred that
> piece AND Tristan. And one could go on and on and on and on. But
> everyone would be bored in the process.
Knowing music from memory..and stamina at banging it out on the
piano...isn't really what conducting is about, though we all admire
those feats.
And the evidence suggests Cortot in his prime was a master both of
Wagner's operas and of Schumann's keyboard repertoire.
--Jeff
Paul Goldstein
>
>In article <1150746965.2...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, GMS
><slidem...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> tomdeacon wrote to GMS:
>> > But you have just seriously altered my impression of your value, both
>> > to this group AND to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
>>
>> Frankly, I don't care what your impression is. If others in this group
>> do, that's their problem. I have merely presented FACTS that you
>> simply choose not to believe.
>>
>> Enjoy the rest of your day, Tom.
>
>in harder. Most of the time, he only draws the paper cut. This is his
>sole amusement.
When the troll Deacon tries to shove a shiv in harder, he invariably winds up
impaling only one person, his own ridiculous self. It would be difficult to
create a fictional character combining his extremes of pomposity, nastiness, and
cluelessness.
I do not understand why any sensible participant in this newsgroup ever replies
to the Troll directly. I've stopped doing it, and I think everyone should.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:e77a9...@drn.newsguy.com:
> When the troll Deacon tries to shove a shiv in harder, he invariably
> winds up impaling only one person, his own ridiculous self. It would be
> difficult to create a fictional character combining his extremes of
> pomposity, nastiness, and cluelessness.
>
> I do not understand why any sensible participant in this newsgroup ever
> replies to the Troll directly. I've stopped doing it, and I think
> everyone should.
I stopped long ago.
There was a time long ago when he was of some use; I recall he was a
banner-bearer in the campaign against the vile attempt by UCLA to rename
Schoenberg Hall after Mo Ostin. But that was years ago.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Steven de Mena
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns97E7AD5EAC4...@207.217.125.201...
>> I do not understand why any sensible participant in this newsgroup ever
>> replies to the Troll directly. I've stopped doing it, and I think
>> everyone should.
>
> I stopped long ago.
>
> There was a time long ago when he was of some use; I recall he was a
> banner-bearer in the campaign against the vile attempt by UCLA to rename
> Schoenberg Hall after Mo Ostin. But that was years ago.
Thankfully I don't remember that. (Schoenberg Hall incident).
Steve
Vaneyes
Joe Vitale wrote:
>
>The only thing I haven't cared for in the DB era were his
> Erato recordings that came off surprisingly mundane.
Nothing mundane about his de Falla (w. Martha), Scriabin Sym. 3, Liszt
Sonata.
Regards
Bob Harper
(snip)
> I have no intention of diminishing Mr. Stucka's abilities, nor his
> position, nor his rights as a human being, nor even his person.
(snip)
> TD
>
Tom, you tell us you value honesty. Why, then, tell a bald-faced lie
like this? What you claim not to intend is *precisely* what you are
doing, and it's disgusting. At least as bad as someone impugning the
reputation of Craig Dory.
Bob Harper
tomdeacon
jrs...@aol.com wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
> I know few musicians in all time who have been able to
> > perform the Well Tempered Clavier by Bach and also conduct Tristan from
> > memory. Who has performed all the Beethoven sonatas frequently, and
> > recorded them twice, and who has performed the same trick with the
> > Mozart Concertos. He also does a very mean impersonation of Moritz
> > Rosenthal when he dusts the keyboard with that pianist's Papillons.
> > Barenboim is perhaps the only musician ever to have masterred that
> > piece AND Tristan. And one could go on and on and on and on. But
> > everyone would be bored in the process.
>
> Knowing music from memory..and stamina at banging it out on the
> piano...isn't really what conducting is about, though we all admire
> those feats.
Who talked about "banging"? Papillons doesn't require that and it is
not what Mr. Barenboim did. When I say "dusted the keys", I mean he
seduced the listener with the most gossamer of pps imaginable.
> And the evidence suggests Cortot in his prime was a master both of
> Wagner's operas and of Schumann's keyboard repertoire.
As is Mr. Barenboim, albeit in an entirely different way.
So far you have said nothing. When are you going to correct that
lacuna?
TD
tomdeacon
Paul Goldstein wrote:
> I do not understand why any sensible participant in this newsgroup ever replies
> to the Troll directly. I've stopped doing it, and I think everyone should.
This is a small blessing. But apparently Mr. Goldstein is weak, and he
continues to reply, otherwise we would not have had this post. Of
course.
He should retire to his corner, I think, as all those many shivs are
quite visible beneath his skirts.
TD
tomdeacon
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Paul Goldstein <Paul_...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:e77a9...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
> > When the troll Deacon tries to shove a shiv in harder, he invariably
> > winds up impaling only one person, his own ridiculous self. It would be
> > difficult to create a fictional character combining his extremes of
> > pomposity, nastiness, and cluelessness.
> >
> > I do not understand why any sensible participant in this newsgroup ever
> > replies to the Troll directly. I've stopped doing it, and I think
> > everyone should.
>
> I stopped long ago.
>
> There was a time long ago when he was of some use; I recall he was a
> banner-bearer in the campaign against the vile attempt by UCLA to rename
> Schoenberg Hall after Mo Ostin. But that was years ago.
Tepper is fantasizing again.
Never heard of Mo Ostin. Nor renaming Schoenberg Hall. Nor even of
UCLA. Never set foot in the place.
TD
sechumlib
> In article <1150756463.1...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Which means....
>
>
> You are a man with far too much time on his hands.
Seems to me YOU have plenty, too.
As I do, so don't throw it at me; I know already.
tomdeacon
And certainly his ground-breaking recording for Erato of John
Corigliano's Symphony No. 1 "Of Rage and Remembrance" can hardly be
called mundane.
TD
jrs...@aol.com
tomdeacon wrote:
> jrs...@aol.com wrote:
> > tomdeacon wrote:
> > I know few musicians in all time who have been able to
> > > perform the Well Tempered Clavier by Bach and also conduct Tristan from
> > > memory. Who has performed all the Beethoven sonatas frequently, and
> > > recorded them twice, and who has performed the same trick with the
> > > Mozart Concertos. He also does a very mean impersonation of Moritz
> > > Rosenthal when he dusts the keyboard with that pianist's Papillons.
> > > Barenboim is perhaps the only musician ever to have masterred that
> > > piece AND Tristan. And one could go on and on and on and on. But
> > > everyone would be bored in the process.
> >
> > Knowing music from memory..and stamina at banging it out on the
> > piano...isn't really what conducting is about, though we all admire
> > those feats.
>
> Who talked about "banging"? Papillons doesn't require that and it is
> not what Mr. Barenboim did. When I say "dusted the keys", I mean he
> seduced the listener with the most gossamer of pps imaginable.
And your point again eludes me. In what way does Barenboim's touch on
the piano inform us about his skill as a conductor?
--Jeff
tomdeacon
Bob Harper wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
> (snip)
> > I have no intention of diminishing Mr. Stucka's abilities, nor his
> > position, nor his rights as a human being, nor even his person.
>
> (snip)
>
> > TD
> >
>
> Tom, you tell us you value honesty. Why, then, tell a bald-faced lie
> like this? What you claim not to intend is *precisely* what you are
> doing, and it's disgusting.
So, you don't value honesty, Bob. You wish that I should pass over the
snide, derogatory remarks made about DB by GS.
Not about to do that.
I have nothing against GS. Only against what he said about DB. If you
feel that is "disgusting", so be it, I certainly cannot stop you from
feeling that way.
But just imagine that you were Daniel Barenboim and that comment was
passed to you as you left and orchestra which he has served for many,
many years. Do you think he would appreciate that comment, Bob? Do you
think he would value the remark? If you don't, and you don't think it
is deserved, which is my feeling, then it is obligatory to speak out.
> At least as bad as someone impugning the reputation of Craig Dory.
Just as I have done in the case of Craig Dory.
TD
tomdeacon
O wrote:
> You are a man with far too much time on his hands.
Don't let jealousy take over your feelings, Owen. It will not make you
happy.
TD
tomdeacon
O wrote:
> In article <1150757278.2...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> tomdeacon <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> > Owen may take this as what he calls a "shiv". If facing up to the
> > reality of these two gentlemen is a shiv, so be it. But sometimes life
> > is tough. And we just go on.
>
> you weren't in the classical music biz.
Almost precisely the opposite.
I abhor idle gossip, which is why I took exception to the comments of
that useless twit who impugned Craig Dory here a few weeks back.
> P.S. How did your heart transplant go the other week?
I decided to do without a heart, Owen. Useless things, actually. They
only make you sympathize with other human beings. And you certainly
would be a case in point.
TD
tomdeacon
jrs...@aol.com wrote:
> And your point again eludes me. In what way does Barenboim's touch on the piano inform us about his skill as a conductor?
Seems you're not a musician. I didn't know that.
Otherwise you would have known that Mr. Barenboim has an incredible
musical imagination. That and the ear to discern how to obtain what he
hears in his mind.
That, you see, is also musical intelligence. Both are essential
ingredients in any real conductor. Show me one without it, and I will
show you a Kapellmeister.
TD
tomdeacon
Curtis Croulet wrote:
> So, I'm left wondering if the Barenboim years, too, will someday be regarded as a "golden age" at the CSO.
My thoughts exactly.
After due thought on this entire matter, I feel that there is an
elephant in this room.
That elephant has to do with Mr. Barenboim's connection with a now dead
Palestinian political figure with an interest in music and the arts.
Methinks that much of the opposition to him as a musician comes from
the likes of Samir Golescu, who has spewed his thoughts on the subject
here more than once, often to concerted agreement from the obvious
members of this forum.
Hmmmmmmmm.
Now, of course, denials will be forthcoming. From the usual suspects.
But that old duck proverb sticks in my mind all the same. And this duck
quacks.
TD
Frank Berger
"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1150764943.6...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
You've failed to notice that Mr. Goldstein was talking *about* you, not *to*
you.
bzuk...@phillynews.com
pianist),
But I've got no problem whatsoever believing that Barenboim the walking
ego would pull a stunt like the one Mr. Stucka described.
Barry
Frank Berger
>
> Curtis Croulet wrote:
>
>> So, I'm left wondering if the Barenboim years, too, will someday be
>> regarded as a "golden age" at the CSO.
>
> My thoughts exactly.
>
> After due thought on this entire matter, I feel that there is an
> elephant in this room.
>
> That elephant has to do with Mr. Barenboim's connection with a now dead
> Palestinian political figure with an interest in music and the arts.
> Methinks that much of the opposition to him as a musician comes from
> the likes of Samir Golescu,
Samir has influence with the CSO? I had no idea. I also must have missed
his participation in this thread.
Steven de Mena
On 6/19/06 6:21 PM, in article
1150766508....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com, "tomdeacon"
<tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Conversely, one could say that same elephant could be part of your
unwavering support for DB? You really have this guy on a high pedestal.
Steve
Frank Berger
<bzuk...@phillynews.com> wrote in message
news:1150767510.4...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Ego, I imagine, is what also convinced him it was OK to renig on his
agreement with the Israel Festival not to play Wagner at that concert.
jrs...@aol.com
tomdeacon wrote:
> jrs...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > And your point again eludes me. In what way does Barenboim's touch on the piano inform us about his skill as a conductor?
>
> Seems you're not a musician. I didn't know that.
You don't have to admit everything you don't know, Tom. There won't be
time for you to write any of your haughty opinions if you try.
>
> Otherwise you would have known that Mr. Barenboim has an incredible
> musical imagination. That and the ear to discern how to obtain what he
> hears in his mind.
You've missed too many of my posts about Mr. Barenboim. Too busy
writing about what you don't know, eh?
>
> That, you see, is also musical intelligence. Both are essential
> ingredients in any real conductor. Show me one without it, and I will
> show you a Kapellmeister.
You see, there are many great musicians with musical intelligence who
are lousy conductors, Tom. You can have a great musical imagination and
no ability to convey it or no ability to convince others of its worth.
If you were an orchestral musician, you might have known that. But I
see you are not, nor much of a guide to conductors in general.
--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
If you ever decide you're interested, use Google Groups to search posts in
this newsgroup containing the term "Ostin."
Richard Schultz
: He keeps checking his mailbox for his six figure paycheck.
:
: But then, so do I.
Tampering with the mails is a federal offense; I recommend that you stop
checking Samir's mailbox before you get into serious trouble.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Richard Schultz
: I do not understand why any sensible participant in this newsgroup ever
: replies to the Troll [Tom Deacon] directly. I've stopped doing it, and I
: think everyone should.
Some of us are fortunate enough to use newsreaders with a kill file option.
If everyone would join me in putting Mr. Deacon in his or her kill file, then
he (Deacon) would effectively cease to exist.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska
Richard Schultz
: . . . Indeed, we [in the orchestra] sometimes wonder why someone
: is famous for waving a stick while another is not as we may have
: thought that the "another" was somewhat better at it.
If it's any consolation, a lot of us out in the audience are frequently
wondering the same thing.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Richard Schultz
: In article <1150765897....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
: tomdeacon <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
:> > P.S. How did your heart transplant go the other week?
:>
:> I decided to do without a heart, Owen.
: I had expected as much. Perhaps the mighty Wizard of Oz can find you one.
Thank you, Owen -- the thought of Tom Deacon being carried away by flying
monkeys pretty much has made my week.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"That's *genius*!"
"Really? I thought it was Rachmaninov."
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:e77tf7$9eh$7...@news.iucc.ac.il:
> In article <190620062234489771%owenxr...@xids.xnet>, O
> <owenxr...@xids.xnet> wrote:
>: In article <1150765897....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>: tomdeacon <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>:> > P.S. How did your heart transplant go the other week?
>:>
>:> I decided to do without a heart, Owen.
>
>: I had expected as much. Perhaps the mighty Wizard of Oz can find you
>: one.
>
> Thank you, Owen -- the thought of Tom Deacon being carried away by
> flying monkeys pretty much has made my week.
Or better still, if he would rust in place for several years and not be
able to communicate.
Bob Harper
> Bob Harper wrote:
>> tomdeacon wrote:
>> (snip)
>>> I have no intention of diminishing Mr. Stucka's abilities, nor his
>>> position, nor his rights as a human being, nor even his person.
>> (snip)
>>
>>> TD
>>>
>> Tom, you tell us you value honesty. Why, then, tell a bald-faced lie
>> like this? What you claim not to intend is *precisely* what you are
>> doing, and it's disgusting.
>
> So, you don't value honesty, Bob.
You wish that I should pass over the
> snide, derogatory remarks made about DB by GS.
of his Schumann set and Mahler 7 he's a fine conductor, but that doesn't
make him a fine person, and certain of his other actions in recent years
raise the suspicion that he can be a real jerk.
>
> Not about to do that.
>
> I have nothing against GS.
assassination:
> First of all, I hope you take time off to recover from your illness.
> >
> > Secondly, neither you, nor the other "musician" whose words have been
> > quoted by you, make me sanguine about the musical health of this once
> > great orchestra.
> >
> > Thirdly, this is not the place for you, Gary, as a member of the CSO,
> > to air your personal gripes, washing your dirty linen in public, as it
> > were. Your remarks are an embarrassment to the CSO, in my opinion.
> >
> > Now, go away, nurse your "wounds", and return at some future date with
> > a more open and a healthier mind.
> >
> > TD
Only against what he said about DB. If you
> feel that is "disgusting", so be it, I certainly cannot stop you from
> feeling that way.
>
> But just imagine that you were Daniel Barenboim and that comment was
> passed to you as you left and orchestra which he has served for many,
> many years. Do you think he would appreciate that comment, Bob?
Depends on whether he can be honest with himself.
>Do you think he would value the remark?
He should certainly think about why someone felt it necessary to correct
the record by making it.
If you don't, and you don't think it
> is deserved, which is my feeling, then it is obligatory to speak out.
Which is your right. What is *not* your right is to speak down to Gary
or anyone else as if you were the fons et origo of all wisdom. You know
a great deal about recordings, but sometimes you confuse that with
omniscience about things of which you are ignorant.
Bob Harper
Richard Schultz
:>:> I decided to do without a heart, Owen.
:>: I had expected as much. Perhaps the mighty Wizard of Oz can find you
:>: one.
:> Thank you, Owen -- the thought of Tom Deacon being carried away by
:> flying monkeys pretty much has made my week.
: Or better still, if he would rust in place for several years and not be
: able to communicate.
I realize that intellectually, there is an advantage to your plan, but
emotionally, I have to go with the flying monkeys.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
tomdeacon
I have enormous respect for Barenboim the musician, Steve. Don't
particularly care for the person. But that means nothing anyway.
I have heard him, on and off, for about forty years. Most recently in a
recital in Toronto which simply blew me away. He put most pianists
before the public today to shame. Brilliant, composed, poetic. He has
everything. Still.
Then there were all those chamber concerts in Paris in the 1960s. Yes,
Steve, some of us were alive before you were born! With Pinky, and
Jackie and alone in the complete Beethoven sonatas. And then there are
his recordings. Some are among the best. All are opinionated and
magnificent.
As a conductor he bombed out in Paris, really, but then he started to
gain confidence and ability. And has landed in Berlin, and Milan, at La
Scala, no less. And he is fresh from decades in Chicago.
Like, if you want to pummel someone, better to try someone else, I
would suggest.
That said, Karajan always had his detractors, even when he was
producing some of the most beautiful sounds ever to come from an
orchestra. But Karajan was limited next to Barenboim. He could manage
the amateur pianist's part in Mozart's Triple piano concerto - I heard
him do it - but not much more. Barenboim can play Iberia plus the WTC
plus the Beethoven Sonatas, plus the Liszt Sonata, plus, plus, plus.
And he can conduct Tristan from memory.
Try it, Steve.
And then let me know if you still hold Barenboim in low esteem in
comparison to his very limited colleagues.
TD
tomdeacon
Never heard that ego was a problem for performing musicians. Show me
one without an ego and I'll show you a dud!
TD
tomdeacon
jrs...@aol.com wrote:
> You see, there are many great musicians with musical intelligence who
> are lousy conductors, Tom.
Name one.
> You can have a great musical imagination and
> no ability to convey it or no ability to convince others of its worth.
Really? And your experience in the matter is what, precisely? You're
not a musician; I thought that was clear?
> If you were an orchestral musician, you might have known that.
Thank God I have never been one of those slaves to the man with the
stick.
> But I see you are not, nor much of a guide to conductors in general.
Hmmmmmmm.
You have no idea which conductors I admire and which I don't. I have
never said much about conductors. I could, but I don't waste my time
here spouting off about it.
TD
tomdeacon
Bob Harper wrote:
Look, DB may be a genius; certainly on the evidence
> of his Schumann set and Mahler 7 he's a fine conductor, but that doesn't
> make him a fine person, and certain of his other actions in recent years
> raise the suspicion that he can be a real jerk.
I really don't give a flying fuck if Barenboim is a jerk or not, Bob.
That jerk is a great musician, and as such deserves the respect of
those who love music for what he has done in his lifetime.
You may remember a certain Leonard Bernstein. Now, talk about a jerk!
Barenboim is a pussy-cat in comparison. But who cared? Who cares? We
still miss his brilliance, Bob. I'll wager that even his kids and his
wife miss that.
> > I have nothing against GS.
> Really!? Hard to tell when you're engaging in this kind of character
> assassination:
Nope. Just objecting strenuously to his "catty" (someone else's words,
not mine) comments about his former boss.
Now he has NO boss. Wonder how he will enjoy that. Pierre will be nice,
drop in from time to time, lead them in some of his sweet music.
Bernard will also drop in from time to time. And he will be nice.
(Actually, Haitink is a royal SOB, as anyone who has ever had anything
to do with him knows full well. Just ask his Amsterdam musicians who
ran him out of the orchestra for one of his dalliances!) And then there
will be that string of nonentities he will face, most of whom will make
Barenboim seem like the best thing since sliced bread!
> > First of all, I hope you take time off to recover from your illness.
> > >
> > > Secondly, neither you, nor the other "musician" whose words have been
> > > quoted by you, make me sanguine about the musical health of this once
> > > great orchestra.
> > >
> > > Thirdly, this is not the place for you, Gary, as a member of the CSO,
> > > to air your personal gripes, washing your dirty linen in public, as it
> > > were. Your remarks are an embarrassment to the CSO, in my opinion.
> > >
> > > Now, go away, nurse your "wounds", and return at some future date with
> > > a more open and a healthier mind.
> > >
> > > TD
>
>
> Only against what he said about DB. If you
> > feel that is "disgusting", so be it, I certainly cannot stop you from
> > feeling that way.
> >
> > But just imagine that you were Daniel Barenboim and that comment was
> > passed to you as you left and orchestra which he has served for many,
> > many years. Do you think he would appreciate that comment, Bob?
>
> Depends on whether he can be honest with himself.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
> >Do you think he would value the remark?
>
> He should certainly think about why someone felt it necessary to correct
> the record by making it.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
> If you don't, and you don't think it
> > is deserved, which is my feeling, then it is obligatory to speak out.
>
> Which is your right. What is *not* your right is to speak down to Gary
> or anyone else as if you were the fons et origo of all wisdom.
You have no idea whether I speak from a height or not, Harper. My feet
are firmly planted on the ground. I don't look "down" upon GS or even
you. Just squarely in the eye, as I would if you were staring at me.
> You know a great deal about recordings,
A little. Not a great deal. Peter Schenkmann knew a great deal.
> but sometimes you confuse that with omniscience about things of which you are ignorant.
You don't have to be omniscient in order to determine bad manners.
TD
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>
>Curtis Croulet wrote:
>
>>So, I'm left wondering if the Barenboim years, too, will someday be regarded as
>>a "golden age" at the CSO.
>
>My thoughts exactly.
>
>After due thought on this entire matter, I feel that there is an
>elephant in this room.
>
>That elephant has to do with Mr. Barenboim's connection with a now dead
>Palestinian political figure with an interest in music and the arts.
>Methinks that much of the opposition to him as a musician comes from
>the likes of Samir Golescu, who has spewed his thoughts on the subject
>here more than once, often to concerted agreement from the obvious
>members of this forum.
I guess you missed the occasion when he expressed the opinion that Barenboim's
Brahms cto 2 in one of the CSO boxes is one of the two or three best
performances he's heard of the piece. Some opposition....
Simon
jrs...@aol.com
tomdeacon wrote:
>
> > If you were an orchestral musician, you might have known that.
>
> Thank God I have never been one of those slaves to the man with the
> stick.
>
It shows.
> > But I see you are not, nor much of a guide to conductors in general.
>
> Hmmmmmmm.
>
> You have no idea which conductors I admire and which I don't. I have
> never said much about conductors. I could, but I don't waste my time
> here spouting off about it.
Correction: you are not wasting *our* time spouting off about it.
Instead, you are wasting our time in a thread about a conductor by
spouting off about pianism and *claiming* to have something to say
about conductors.
--Jeff
tomdeacon
Indeed. Considerable opposition.
I won't bother to dredge up Golescu's well-known comments on Barenboim.
They are almost legendary in this place. It is generous of him to find
one example of his musicianship which meets his standards. So generous.
Thank you for reminding me of that sole occasion.
As for his other thoughts, I shall try hard to ignore them when next he
chooses to find something nice to say about this great musician.
TD
tomdeacon
Only about this one, as I have had considerable experience of him as a
musician over many decades.
I have also been known to wax enthusiastic about Levine, Leinsdorf,
Walter, Reiner, and many others. But I won't try to impress you with my
knowledge of the world of conductors. What does interest me, however,
is your own knowledge of this world. I still have absolutely no feeling
for your own experience, knowledge and judgment. In other words, I only
have your bald opinion, and only on this one man. Perhaps you know
something?
TD
jrs...@aol.com
I'm not interested in your interests. Whether you can express an
interesting opinion and experience about Barenboim's conducting,
however, remains in doubt.
I have said many things about his conducting in many different threads
(which apparently you do not follow, because they have to do with
conducting). The long and short of it is that I too consider him one of
the great musicians of our time, with an emphasis on his chamber music
and concerto skills. Ego or not, he is a great collaborator.
But as a conductor--as a _leader_, ultimately, I have long felt he has
only sometimes fulfilled his huge potential. There are times when one
can see how much better he could be, like when you compared him to
Karajan in another post. Karajan is an interesting antithesis--an
example that shows much of what Barenboim lacks as a conductor. That
doesn't mean I prefer Karajan, but it is telling that you brought up
Karajan but did not use this obvious comparison to make any useful
comments about Barenboim's conducting skills.
--Jeff
Josep Vilanova
On 20/6/06 16:17, in article
1150816655.0...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com, "jrs...@aol.com"
<jrs...@aol.com> wrote:
> But as a conductor--as a _leader_, ultimately, I have long felt he has
> only sometimes fulfilled his huge potential. There are times when one
> can see how much better he could be,
But that may only be a reflection on the variable quality of the recordings
he has produced. In live performances, at least on the ones I've attended,
he can be as good as any. He may go really wild in live performances, mostly
if he has an orchestra willing to go to those extremes. The levels or rubato
he's manage to produce in the third movement of Brahms 3 with the Berlin
Staatskapelle were far more extreme than in the recording with the CSO and,
at that time, they felt like more satisfying.
j
Steven de Mena
I was born in 1961, though did not attend my first concert until 1973.
> With Pinky, and
> Jackie and alone in the complete Beethoven sonatas. And then there are
> his recordings. Some are among the best. All are opinionated and
> magnificent.
>
> That said, Karajan always had his detractors, even when he was
> producing some of the most beautiful sounds ever to come from an
> orchestra. But Karajan was limited next to Barenboim. He could manage
> the amateur pianist's part in Mozart's Triple piano concerto - I heard
> him do it - but not much more. Barenboim can play Iberia plus the WTC
> plus the Beethoven Sonatas, plus the Liszt Sonata, plus, plus, plus.
Maybe James Levine would be a more fitting comparison, though I suspect he
spends little time practicing at the piano these days?
> And he can conduct Tristan from memory.
>
> Try it, Steve.
>
> And then let me know if you still hold Barenboim in low esteem in
> comparison to his very limited colleagues.
>
> TD
I'll listen to some more. I have Beethoven and Schumann symphonies, some
Bruckner with CSO and BPO, and Strauss and R-K with CSO. And Tristan, which
I have never played. Actually I enjoyed those Mozart EMI symphonies and
concertos too.
Steve
jrs...@aol.com
I agree. I think the Chicago orchestra went to certain extremes with
him for many years yet at the same time was a bit of a buffer, to good
effect. In any case, almost all of his concerts have been superb in
some way, but some of them have had annoying flaws, too--not enough to
bother me much, but enough to notice. He just isn't the kind of
conductor who shows a range of sonorities and great sense of colorful
detail. And yet...no conductor does everything well.
I agree his recordings can seem like compromises, but what works in
concert doesn't always work so well on record anyway.
--Jeff
tomdeacon
jrs...@aol.com wrote:
> I'm not interested in your interests.
Quelle surprise!
> Whether you can express an interesting opinion and experience about Barenboim's conducting,
> however, remains in doubt.
Not to me. But then I am not you, mercifully. Nor you, me.
> I have said many things about his conducting in many different threads
> (which apparently you do not follow, because they have to do with
> conducting).
And this is supposed to carry weight?
> The long and short of it is that I too consider him one of
> the great musicians of our time, with an emphasis on his chamber music
> and concerto skills. Ego or not, he is a great collaborator.
Opinions all, and worth what opinions are worth on the market these
days. Yours are just like mine, fairly useless.
> But as a conductor--as a _leader_, ultimately, I have long felt he has
> only sometimes fulfilled his huge potential. There are times when one
> can see how much better he could be, like when you compared him to
> Karajan in another post. Karajan is an interesting antithesis--an
> example that shows much of what Barenboim lacks as a conductor. That
> doesn't mean I prefer Karajan, but it is telling that you brought up
> Karajan but did not use this obvious comparison to make any useful
> comments about Barenboim's conducting skills.
You have NO idea why I likened Barenboim to Karajan. Of course
Furtwangler is the closer analogy one could draw. And both conductors
worshipped Furtwangler.
In any event, your very vague thoughts on this subject are fairly
useless
Another "Bon a rien" from what I can determine!
But I have to say I can't possibly have any idea what kind of conductor
Barenboim may or may not be, nor even what music is, when push comes to
shove. In fact I must live in a veritable abyss of ignorance and enjoy
the continued emptiness of my mind. Come to think of it, I don't even
have one of those. It is completely addled by advanced senility. And
now that I have decided to do without a heart I can just spout nonsense
without a care in the world.
Pour yourself a beer and watch some soccer.
TD
Ian Pace
"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:e78u1...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> I guess you missed the occasion when he expressed the opinion that
> Barenboim's
> Brahms cto 2 in one of the CSO boxes is one of the two or three best
> performances he's heard of the piece. Some opposition....
>
Ian
Steven de Mena
"Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote in message
news:i0%lg.61885$rC1...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Playing, with Carlo Maria Giulini. 1977.
Steve
Bob Harper
(snip)
> But I have to say I can't possibly have any idea what kind of conductor
> Barenboim may or may not be, nor even what music is, when push comes to
> shove. In fact I must live in a veritable abyss of ignorance and enjoy
> the continued emptiness of my mind. Come to think of it, I don't even
> have one of those. It is completely addled by advanced senility. And
> now that I have decided to do without a heart I can just spout nonsense
> without a care in the world.
I'm glad you finally decided to open up to us, Tom. Don't you feel
better now? :)
Bob Harper
>
>(snip)
>
> TD
>
Sacqueboutier
>
> GMS wrote:
>> rkhalona wrote:
>>> David Royko wrote:
>>>> He gave a 14 minute address to the audience
>>>> before Beethoven's 9th, talking about conducting and the significance
>>>> to him of his 36-year relationship with the CSO, and ending with the
>>>> announcement that he was made Honorary Conductor for Life
>>>
>>> Shame on the CSO. Honorary conductor for life should go to a more
>>> deserving musician.
>>>
>>> RK
>>
>> A token gesture, instigated by a minority of DB supporters within the
>> orchestra, is turned into an "achievement" by the self-serving maestro,
>> to the surprise of us all. Unfortunately, the press and others will
>> probably not remember the word "honorary".
>
> Mr. Barenboim's history with the CSO will be remembered far longer than
> any other member of the orchestra, I wager.
>
> Hardly the most gracious words to come from your pen, Gary, I would
> also suggest, regardless of your personal opinion of Daniel Barenboim.
>
> TD
Ah, yes...and this coming from our resident "master of the gracious".
Get real, Tom.
The man has his opinions and from what I've heard, he's not along
amongst the CSO musicians.
Personally, I think DB has grown quite a bit. I've never liked his
70s Bruckner cycle, save for the magnificent playing of the orchestra.
But, I've liked the few discs I've heard from his Berlin set, and no, it's
not merely for the orchestra. I can't stand Karajan's set with the same
orchestra.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier