Re: Chicago Tribune: Muti to CSO? -"No guarantee"
phlmae...@yahoo.com
interesting MD.
Still, based on his history of making strong first impressions on
orchestras, it wouldn't surprise me if he's offered the position at
some point after the tour. And I don't just mean musically. Based on
quotes I've read over the years, he seems to have a knack for saying
the right things to win the loyalty of musicians (at least initially).
Barry
Richard Loeb
<phlmae...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171082776....@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I know that Muti's personality is not the kind at all that panders to
musicians or anyone else; he just doesn't work that way - also, a couple of
disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to grind) - the Phila
orchestra at least would love to have him back. Richard
phlmae...@yahoo.com
>
>
> I know that Muti's personality is not the kind at all that panders to
> musicians or anyone else; he just doesn't work that way - also, a couple of
> disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to grind) - the Phila
> orchestra at least would love to have him back. Richard
And there are plenty of concertgoers in Philly who would want no part
of another go around with him. But it's a mute point.
"Pander" isn't the word I'd use. The impression I have is that he
charms the musicians. I'm not saying it as a criticism. Better to
charm them than to alienate them.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> On Feb 10, 12:10 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I know that Muti's personality is not the kind at all that panders to
> > musicians or anyone else; he just doesn't work that way - also, a couple of
> > disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to grind) - the Phila
> > orchestra at least would love to have him back. Richard
>
> And there are plenty of concertgoers in Philly who would want no part
> of another go around with him. But it's a mute point.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to grind) - the Phila
> orchestra at least would love to have him back. Richard
And do you really think it's having an axe to grind to be pissed at
the guy for cancelling every time he's been committed to conduct a
series of subscription concerts here since his tenure as MD ended?
They should stop embarrassing themselves by continuing to invite him.
He's not worth the trouble.
Steve de Mena
> On Feb 10, 12:10 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> I know that Muti's personality is not the kind at all that panders to
>> musicians or anyone else; he just doesn't work that way - also, a couple of
>> disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to grind) - the Phila
>> orchestra at least would love to have him back. Richard
>
> And there are plenty of concertgoers in Philly who would want no part
> of another go around with him.
What didn't they like about him? Programming?
Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:1171085627.7...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
> On Feb 10, 12:25 am, phlmaestr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Feb 10, 12:10 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I know that Muti's personality is not the kind at all that panders to
>> > musicians or anyone else; he just doesn't work that way - also, a
>> > couple of disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to
>> > grind) - the Phila orchestra at least would love to have him back.
>>
>> And there are plenty of concertgoers in Philly who would want no part
>> of another go around with him. But it's a mute point.
>
> Moot even.
You don't say.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
Ego.
Richard Loeb
news:1171086397....@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
He is worth the trouble- thats why they keep inviting him; you don't like
him but please don't express your opinions as being those of the general
public or orchestra - they aren't and its as simple as that = they do like
seeing him and working with him cancellations or not. I have seen him
countless times in rehearsal with the orchestra and seen the audience
attendance and reactions to much of his work - they would love to have him
back. Now I don't think he's coming back, for some reasons that are not
specifically orchestra related and thats a shame - audience attendance would
certainly positively reflect his presence here. Richard
Sacqueboutier
> phlmae...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:1171085627.7...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
>> On Feb 10, 12:25 am, phlmaestr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Feb 10, 12:10 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know that Muti's personality is not the kind at all that panders to
>>>> musicians or anyone else; he just doesn't work that way - also, a
>>>> couple of disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to
>>>> grind) - the Phila orchestra at least would love to have him back.
>>>
>>> And there are plenty of concertgoers in Philly who would want no part
>>> of another go around with him. But it's a mute point.
>>
>> Moot even.
>
> You don't say.
{chuckle}
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> Steve de Mena <ste...@stevedemena.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed innews:45cd69c6$0$16973$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>
> >> On Feb 10, 12:10 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>> I know that Muti's personality is not the kind at all that panders to
> >>> musicians or anyone else; he just doesn't work that way - also, a
> >>> couple of disgruntled members aside (who have their own axes to grind)
> >>> - the Phila orchestra at least would love to have him back. Richard
>
> >> And there are plenty of concertgoers in Philly who would want no part
> >> of another go around with him.
>
> > What didn't they like about him? Programming?
>
> Ego.
>
No. I mean, yes, he's got a big ego. But that's not why the people I
know who don't have fond memories of Muti's tenure here wouldn't want
him back. It's a combination of programming and his conducting style,
which some think ruined the Philadelphia sound, at least until
Sawallisch partially restored it. He made them sound leaner and more
generic; which may be fine for some orchestras; but we've got a
trademark sound here that many Philadelphians love.
Another regular in the rush ticket line once told me he was sick of
all those Italian overtures and of much of the other music Muti
conducted being made to sound like Italian overtures.
Admittedly, he seemed like the perfect antidote to the aging and
slowing Ormandy when he was hired. But after the initial burst of
excitement, he settled into a very unremarkable tenure. When you look
back, out of the numerous recordings he made here, only a handful are
worth holding onto. For each good one, there were several that were
thoroughly forgettable.
Also, of all the conductors I've seen in concert more than a couple
times, he's probably the only one for whom I can't pick out at least
one or two performances I'd call great or unforgettable. I certainly
can't say that for Sawallisch or Eschenbach, not to mention some of
their frequent guest conductors over the years like Rattle and
Temirkanov.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
>
> You don't say.
>
without an edit button. And I have a bad habit of hiting the send
button without reading back.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> >
>>
> He is worth the trouble- thats why they keep inviting him; you don't like
> him but please don't express your opinions as being those of the general
> public or orchestra - they aren't and its as simple as that = they do like
> seeing him and working with him cancellations or not. I have seen him
> countless times in rehearsal with the orchestra and seen the audience
> attendance and reactions to much of his work - they would love to have him
> back. Now I don't think he's coming back, for some reasons that are not
> specifically orchestra related and thats a shame - audience attendance would
> certainly positively reflect his presence here. Richard
My opinions are obviously mine. But I have the opportunity to interact
with a number of other people who have been regular orchestra-goers
for many years, both at work and even more so in the rush ticket line
on Saturdays. Since we've got time to kill, we inevitably wind up
discussing music and concerts we've been to over the years. A number
of them have commented on Muti, and mainly negatively. Sawallisch is
the one most seem to adore above the others. Obviously this isn't
scientific polling. But it's my sense that among serious music fans in
this city, there would hardly be a groundswell of support to bring
Muti back. It may be different among more casual fans. I don't know,
although I've mentioned before that several women over the years have
mentioned to me how much they miss him, always with a word about his
hair or how sexy he is on the podium.
As for the musicians, what they want and what audiences want are two
seperate matters.
And if he is so hugely popular, why did they have so many tickets
available at the last minute when he came back to conduct one concert
for the first time in something like five or six years a season or two
ago? I recall the Orchestra had to put on a big PR blitz the week of
the concert to try to sell tickets that had been available for months.
Richard Loeb
news:1171114279.9...@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
How many tickets did they have - what reasons could there have been??? - I
don't know what people in the rush line think since I have never been there
or how many of them think what - all I know is what I have observed close
hand with him working with the orchestra and his interaction with the
audiences at rehearsals and concerts., In any case you have made up you
rmind so there is no real reason to continue is there??? Richard
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> <phlmaestr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
Well you said attendance would jump if he came back and I merely
pointed out that the last time he came back, they had problems selling
tickets for it. I don't know the numbers, but if they had to try so
hard to sell them in the days leading up to the concert, there must
have been a lot of them.
I know I may have come off as a Muti-hater, but I'm really not. I'm
fairly luke warm on the guy (he may not lead many performances that
I'd consider great; but they usually aren't terrible either......just
not very interesting); as opposed to the strongly negative views I
have of some other conductors (the one in Cleveland for example). But
as you say, there is no point in a debate. We both know our opinions
and he's not coming back regardless.
My first statement in this thread holds for me. I think the CSO can
find someone more interesting, both in terms of repertoire and style,
to be their MD than Muti; preferably someone a bit younger too. He'd
be in his late 60s by the time he takes over, and they've already got
a couple fine seventysomething conductors.
Barry
Matthew B. Tepper
> On Feb 10, 3:07 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Moot even.
>>
>> You don't say.
>>
>:::rolling eyes:::: Of all the boards I post on, this is the only one
> without an edit button. And I have a bad habit of hiting the send
> button without reading back.
"Who was that?" "He didn't say."
MSWD...@gmail.com
> > What didn't they like about him? Programming?
> Ego.
Muti was bragging to interviewers that he was under consideration by
the CSO for MD before the contract had been signed for his first guest
appearance. If he becomes a finalist for the position, it will be
with everyones full awareness of how much he enjoys attention. And
the CSO will want a MD that wants media attention, but I don't think
this is what they have in mind.
To me the key sentence of JvR's article is "David Robertson of the St.
Louis Symphony and Esa-Pekka Salonen of the Los Angeles Philharmonic,
who once looked to be highly desirable prospects, have taken
themselves out of the running, at least for the time being." There's
a lot less to that statement than there might appear to be.
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:1171161420....@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
Cleveland has been trying to poach Esa-Pekka for years. He has a house
here, and he contributed a big chunk o' change to help build Disney Hall.
He's not going anywhere any time soon. I'd have a better chance hanging
around Mariska Hargitay and making doe eyes at her to persuade her to leave
her husband for me, than they have of signing Salonen.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> here, and he contributed a big chunk o' change to help build Disney Hall.
> He's not going anywhere any time soon. I'd have a better chance hanging
> around Mariska Hargitay and making doe eyes at her to persuade her to leave
> her husband for me, than they have of signing Salonen.
>
And if there was even a remote chance he may have taken on another
American orchestra, it went by the boards when he signed on with the
Philharmonia a few months ago.
Barry
GustavM
> hitch the orchestra's future to a safer, less incendiary prospect than
> Muti
> Among those sharing the podium next season with principal conductor Bernard
> Haitink and conductor emeritus Pierre Boulez will be such familiar figures
> as Valery Gergiev, Semyon Bychkov, Mark Elder, Myung-Whun Chung and Antonio
> Pappano, along with the Americans Kent Nagano, Michael Tilson Thomas and
> Leonard Slatkin.
Of these, the only two that are worthy to head the CSO are Gergiev and
MTT. After his hissy hissy fit at LaScala, I couldn't get too excited
about Muti as CSO head either.
Steve de Mena
> MSWD...@gmail.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:1171161420....@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Feb 10, 2:07 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> What didn't they like about him? Programming?
>>> Ego.
>> Muti was bragging to interviewers that he was under consideration by the
>> CSO for MD before the contract had been signed for his first guest
>> appearance. If he becomes a finalist for the position, it will be with
>> everyones full awareness of how much he enjoys attention. And the CSO
>> will want a MD that wants media attention, but I don't think
>> this is what they have in mind.
>>
>> To me the key sentence of JvR's article is "David Robertson of the St.
>> Louis Symphony and Esa-Pekka Salonen of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, who
>> once looked to be highly desirable prospects, have taken themselves out
>> of the running, at least for the time being." There's a lot less to that
>> statement than there might appear to be.
>
> Cleveland has been trying to poach Esa-Pekka for years. He has a house
> here, and he contributed a big chunk o' change to help build Disney Hall.
I find it hard to believe Salonen contributed a
single penny towards the building of Disney Hall.
Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>> Cleveland has been trying to poach Esa-Pekka for years. He has a house
>> here, and he contributed a big chunk o' change to help build Disney Hall.
>
> I find it hard to believe Salonen contributed a single penny towards the
> building of Disney Hall.
I read a while back that it was something like half a million pennies.
Steve de Mena
> Steve de Mena <ste...@stevedemena.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:45cea6e8$0$1425$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>> Cleveland has been trying to poach Esa-Pekka for years. He has a house
>>> here, and he contributed a big chunk o' change to help build Disney Hall.
>> I find it hard to believe Salonen contributed a single penny towards the
>> building of Disney Hall.
>
> I read a while back that it was something like half a million pennies.
>
I'm impressed.
http://www.musiccenter.org/wdch/campaign.html
$100,000 TO $499,999
Jane and Esa-Pekka Salonen
Steve
Michael Schaffer
I looked at that list and thought, shit all these people are already
dead, there must be something like a curse on Disney Hall. But then I
saw that they used the † like an asterisk:
† Constitutes or includes gifts to endowment
Michael Schaffer
Gergiev? I just watched a video of him conducting DSCH13 at the Proms
last year, his head mostly buried in the score, gesturing wildly
about. I have heard some really good stuff from him live and on disc,
and when he's "on", he can be really good. But it also looks to me
like he isn't really all that well prepared often, and I hear stories
of him flying in at the last moment, and assistants rhearsing the
orchestras for him. Dunno if that's true, but if so, that doesn't look
very good in my eyes.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
>
>
> Gergiev? I just watched a video of him conducting DSCH13 at the Proms
> last year, his head mostly buried in the score, gesturing wildly
> about. I have heard some really good stuff from him live and on disc,
> and when he's "on", he can be really good. But it also looks to me
> like he isn't really all that well prepared often, and I hear stories
> of him flying in at the last moment, and assistants rhearsing the
> orchestras for him. Dunno if that's true, but if so, that doesn't look
> very good in my eyes.
>
I'm going to see him conduct the Philadelphia this afternoon. The
review local of the Thursday performance sounded exactly like the
stories you've heard. There was little rehearsal, and according to the
critic, it showed (I'm hoping they'll be better by today). He
apparently rams through the Debussy Prelude and Lam Mer and Schubert's
9th at break-neck speed. According to the review, the performances
were pure excitement with no depth at all.
Barry
jrs...@aol.com
I agree. But then, there's a lot less to the entire article than the
headline would sugggest. A conductor who hasn't been in town in
several decades, and who left an ugly situation with his former
orchestras, is not a frontrunner in any search, no matter how much the
media will suggest it. Muti may be a candidate, but everybody's a
candidate on somebody's list. Muti's just better at generating idle
speculation than the others.
No guarantee indeed.
Now, some of the people on my own personal list...Gatti, Fischer,
Dudamel, Noseda, Volkov, Honeck (oops...gone!)...these names are
nowhere to be found in the article. That means they are equal to Muti:
they are no guarantee.
--Jeff
sechumlib
> Now, some of the people on my own personal list...Gatti, Fischer,
> Dudamel, Noseda, Volkov, Honeck (oops...gone!)...these names are
> nowhere to be found in the article. That means they are equal to Muti:
> they are no guarantee.
Which Fischer? Adam or Ivan?
jrs...@aol.com
> On 2007-02-11 11:41:12 -0500, jrsn...@aol.com said:
>
> > Now, some of the people on my own personal list...Gatti, Fischer,
> > Dudamel, Noseda, Volkov, Honeck (oops...gone!)...these names are
> > nowhere to be found in the article. That means they are equal to Muti:
> > they are no guarantee.
>
> Which Fischer? Adam or Ivan?
Ivan. And Jurowski too. Vladimir, for sure, not necessarily Mikhail.
And Paavo Jarvi, Osmo Vanska, Jukka-Pekka Saraste and Sakari Oramo,
too, just for fun.
--Jeff
Steve de Mena
HA.
The asterisk was used to denote gifts from LA Phil
employees or musicians. Salonen was the only one
on the list with an asterisk.
Steve
jrs...@aol.com
I'll take pure excitement when I can get it. Depth is a lot to ask.
But Gergiev is too erratic (too overcommitted, underrehearsed) to be a
music director of a US orchestra). The musicians might be able to
carry on despite such nonsense, but they would not be amused, and
"standards" would slip, causing consternation.
Better to have a occasionally wild spirit like Gatti, who at least has
strong notions about details and quality, then to take a wild spirit
like Gergiev, who gambles with the orchestra's reputation every time.
--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
news:1171219087....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
Got any more Finns or Estonians you'd like to add to the list? Count out
Osmo; he's on a mission in Minneapolis.
Matthew B. Tepper
Okay, so at least ten million pennies. But I recall reading about one
particular gift of $50,000; maybe he gave that much at one point, and then
more towards the end when the project inevitably went way over budget.
If there are still people in Cleveland or Chicago who think E-PS can be
poached, I'd appreciate it if they'd send me Mariska's number. ;--)
George Murnu
the two "hot latino conductors" (sorry for being politically incorrect),
Harth-Bedoya and Dudamel will codnuct the CSO on consecutive weeks. My
money are with Harth-Bedoya.
Though I think Harth-Bedoya would be a better choice for the NYPO, not the
CSO.
Alas, he's not in the running. And yes, he still has to grow.
Regards,
George
"Rich Litel" <ric...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D2E2FE6279...@216.196.97.131...
> Muti Takes Center Stage
> Italian maestro to open the CSO's new season
>
> By John von Rhein
> Tribune music critic
> Published February 9, 2007
>
>
> No one is exactly calling it a public audition. Not when you're talking
> about an internationally celebrated conductor such as Riccardo Muti.
>
> Even so, all ears will be on the charismatic if controversial Italian
> maestro Sept. 14 when he opens the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's 2007-08
> concert season, which the orchestra will announce Friday.
>
> After his two-week engagement on the subscription series, Muti will take
> the CSO on a seven-city tour to Italy, Germany, England and France in late
> September and early October. High-profile gigs for a conductor who hasn't
> led the CSO in nearly 32 years.
>
> It's no secret that Muti, 65, is among the leading conductors (and also
the
> biggest international name) under consideration to succeed Daniel
Barenboim
> as the CSO's next music director. The big question is whether he's got the
> right stuff to engage with the orchestra, the audience and the city. These
> concerts, which will mark his belated return to an orchestra he last
> conducted in 1975, should tell the tale.
>
> 'No blank checks'
>
> Deborah Card, president of the CSO Association, said the public should not
> assume that because Muti is opening the season and will lead the CSO's
next
> European tour that he has the inside track on becoming the orchestra's
next
> music director.
>
> "There are no blank checks at 220 S. Michigan Ave.," she cautioned. "And
> this isn't a music director tryout per se." But, she added, cryptically,
> "everything is a music director tryout as well."
>
> Card said that the orchestra initiated "conversations" with Muti in 2005
> when the upcoming European tour was being planned. His availability and
> readiness to return to the CSO coincided with the orchestra's desire to
> make the tour "big, bold and different from what we've had previously,"
she
> said.
>
> The fall swing through Europe, she added, "is reaffirming who the CSO is,
> making sure the world knows what we sound like and doing so in a really
> important way."
>
> Even if Muti's musicmaking is respected here, there is no guarantee the
> orchestra or its administration will warm to Muti himself. He will return
> to Chicago bearing the heavy burden of his rancorous public divorce from
> Milan's La Scala in 2005, during which orchestra musicians there assailed
> his reportedly dictatorial ways.
>
> The CSO board, having suffered Barenboim's ego, ultimately might decide to
> hitch the orchestra's future to a safer, less incendiary prospect than
> Muti.
>
> Although Card insists the search committee has no short list, next
season's
> roster of guest conductors hints at where the committee might be looking
as
> it narrows its sights to a select number of brand-name candidates.
>
> Among those sharing the podium next season with principal conductor
Bernard
> Haitink and conductor emeritus Pierre Boulez will be such familiar figures
> as Valery Gergiev, Semyon Bychkov, Mark Elder, Myung-Whun Chung and
Antonio
> Pappano, along with the Americans Kent Nagano, Michael Tilson Thomas and
> Leonard Slatkin.
>
> David Robertson of the St. Louis Symphony and Esa-Pekka Salonen of the Los
> Angeles Philharmonic, who once looked to be highly desirable prospects,
> have taken themselves out of the running, at least for the time being.
> Both, however, are scheduled to return as guests next season.
>
> Missing in action will be two highly desirable European-based candidates,
> Riccardo Chailly and Mariss Jansons. Chailly will bring his Leipzig
> Gewandhaus Orchestra to Chicago later this month; Jansons last appeared
> here in November with his Bavarian Radio Symphony. Both conductors are
> heavily committed abroad, and Chailly thus far has been loath to accept a
> permanent post in the U.S. Jansons ended his seven-season tenure with the
> Pittsburgh Symphony in 2004.
>
> In no hurry to decide
>
> The sense I get when talking to CSO officials and orchestra members close
> to the search committee is that everyone has agreed to wait at least
> another season until they have found the right person to fill Barenboim's
> shoes. CSO players tell me they were very pleased with Boulez's concerts
> late last year and are looking forward to working with Haitink in his
first
> full residency as principal conductor.
>
> The eminent Dutch conductor will direct five weeks of subscription
> concerts, three in fall 2007 and two in spring 2008. Haitink also will
lead
> the CSO on a tour to New York's Carnegie Hall in May 2008. Program
> highlights of the Haitink weeks include Mahler's first and sixth
> symphonies, Shostakovich's Symphony No. 4, Peter Lieberson's "Neruda
> Songs" and the premiere of a new work by CSO composer-in-residence Mark-
> Anthony Turnage.
>
> Boulez will direct two weeks of CSO concerts at Symphony Center plus two
> concerts in Carnegie Hall. His programs will include works by Berlioz,
> Stravinsky, Bartok and Luciano Berio, along with the premiere of German
> composer Matthias Pintscher's "Osiris," a work co-commissioned by the CSO,
> London Symphony and Carnegie Hall.
>
> Card said she expects the CSO to close out fiscal year 2007 with a
balanced
> budget, as she has repeatedly promised she would achieve. Ticket sales
this
> season are projected to run between 82 percent and 84 percent of capacity,
> slightly ahead of last season, she said..."
>
>
tho...@antispam.ham
> Steve de Mena wrote:
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>> Steve de Mena wrote:
>>>> I find it hard to believe Salonen contributed a single penny towards
>>>> the building of Disney Hall.
>>> I read a while back that it was something like half a million pennies.
>> $100,000 TO $499,999
>> Jane and Esa-Pekka Salonen
> Okay, so at least ten million pennies. But I recall reading about one
> particular gift of $50,000;
That's 5 million pennies, not half a million pennies.
GustavM
> jrsn...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be typed innews:1171219087....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Feb 11, 9:48 am, sechumlib <sechum...@liberal.net> wrote:
> >> On 2007-02-11 11:41:12 -0500, jrsn...@aol.com said:
>
> >> > Now, some of the people on my own personal list...Gatti, Fischer,
> >> > Dudamel, Noseda, Volkov, Honeck (oops...gone!)...these names are
> >> > nowhere to be found in the article. That means they are equal to Muti:
> >> > they are no guarantee.
>
> >> Which Fischer? Adam or Ivan?
>
> > Ivan. And Jurowski too. Vladimir, for sure, not necessarily Mikhail.
>
> > And Paavo Jarvi, Osmo Vanska, Jukka-Pekka Saraste and Sakari Oramo,
> > too, just for fun.
>
> Got any more Finns or Estonians you'd like to add to the list? Count out
> Osmo; he's on a mission in Minneapolis.
>
The greatest living Finn of them all: Segerstam. And he has conducted
the CSO several times, wonderfully. But he doesn't appear to be a
leading candidate.
GMS
> The greatest living Finn of them all: Segerstam. And he has conducted
> the CSO several times, wonderfully. But he doesn't appear to be a
> leading candidate.
My favorite story regarding Segerstam is from his most recent
appearance with the CSO. He was telling the orchestra about the only
extant recording of Sibelius as conductor. Segerstam struggled to
describe the material used to make that 78 and instead of referring to
shellac, he called the material "stonecake". As the collector of
@5000 "stonecakes", I was mightily amused.
Gary Stucka
Cellist, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
phlmae...@yahoo.com
>
It was not as bad as I thought it might be. The fact that it was their
third and final performance of the program probably helped. The first
performance is what is reviewed for the paper generally and the
execution sometimes improves between Thursday and Saturday. But
Gergiev certainly isn't a stickler for clarity and detail. That
actually doesn't bother me as much as it may some people, but I agree
that he'd be a risky selection. And knowing him, he'd want to add the
job onto his others, rather than giving one up.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
conductor (also the son of a conductor who I believe recently died)
who is making his Philly debut later this week in a program that
includes Messiaen's Les Offrandes oubilées and Ein Heldenleben.
jrs...@aol.com
Collecting stonecakes...now there's something one can actually brag
about with his mates at the pub.
My apologies for forgetting to list Segerstam among the candidates. I
don't his generally slow tempi all that appealing, but even so I like
many of his recordings.
--Jeff
jrs...@aol.com
> jrsn...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be typed innews:1171219087....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Feb 11, 9:48 am, sechumlib <sechum...@liberal.net> wrote:
> >> On 2007-02-11 11:41:12 -0500, jrsn...@aol.com said:
>
> >> > Now, some of the people on my own personal list...Gatti, Fischer,
> >> > Dudamel, Noseda, Volkov, Honeck (oops...gone!)...these names are
> >> > nowhere to be found in the article. That means they are equal to Muti:
> >> > they are no guarantee.
>
> >> Which Fischer? Adam or Ivan?
>
> > Ivan. And Jurowski too. Vladimir, for sure, not necessarily Mikhail.
>
> > And Paavo Jarvi, Osmo Vanska, Jukka-Pekka Saraste and Sakari Oramo,
> > too, just for fun.
>
> Got any more Finns or Estonians you'd like to add to the list? Count out
> Osmo; he's on a mission in Minneapolis.
I agree. I think it would be sad to see him leave Minneapolis. Maybe
they can share him with Chicago? He could buy a nice appartment in
Milwaukee and conduct there, too.
Let's see...Sakari, Ikininen, Franck, Storgards, ...there are plenty
of these candidates from the lands of minimal winter sun.
--Jeff
GustavM
That's funny. He does have a way with the English language. Of course,
I suppose that might eventually be a problem if he ever took over a
U.S. orchestra. Probably won't ever happen anyway. I can still
remember his comments from the podium when the CSO performed his
conductorless tone poem FEBRUARY. He said something to the effect
that, listening to an orchestra without a conductor was like buying
vegetables directly from the farmer. I remember almost cracking up in
my seat. Great piece, though.
GustavM
> My apologies for forgetting to list Segerstam among the candidates. I
> don't his generally slow tempi all that appealing, but even so I like
> many of his recordings.
>
> --Jeff
It takes a special conductor to make really slow tempos work.
Segerstam and Celibidache are the only two I can think of offhand.
jrs...@aol.com
Sometimes Eschenbach makes them work, too. And of course Bernstein,
late in his life. I haven't listened to Mikko Franck's 80 minute
Mahler 5, but I hear he made that work well.
--Jeff
GustavM
I've heard that Eschenbach might be kicked out of Philly soon. The CSO
should keep him in mind too. I've seen him conduct some really nice
Mahler, one of the CSO's bread and butter composers.
80 minute Mahler 5? Interesting. The 5th is one of the few from
Segerstam's Chandos Mahler cycle that I haven't heard yet. My guess is
that it's probably close to 80 too.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> On Feb 11, 1:31�pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> jrsn...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
>> typed in news:1171219087....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Feb 11, 9:48 am, sechumlib <sechum...@liberal.net> wrote:
>> >> On 2007-02-11 11:41:12 -0500, jrsn...@aol.com said:
>>
>> >> > Now, some of the people on my own personal list...Gatti, Fischer,
>> >> > Dudamel, Noseda, Volkov, Honeck (oops...gone!)...these names are
>> >> > nowhere to be found in the article. That means they are equal to
>> >> > Muti: they are no guarantee.
>>
>> >> Which Fischer? Adam or Ivan?
>>
>> > Ivan. And Jurowski too. Vladimir, for sure, not necessarily Mikhail.
>>
>> > And Paavo Jarvi, Osmo Vanska, Jukka-Pekka Saraste and Sakari Oramo,
>> > too, just for fun.
>>
>> Got any more Finns or Estonians you'd like to add to the list? Count
>> out Osmo; he's on a mission in Minneapolis.
>
> The greatest living Finn of them all: Segerstam. And he has conducted
> the CSO several times, wonderfully. But he doesn't appear to be a
> leading candidate.
Yes, I ought to have mentioned Segerstam, but I was under the impression
that he had been cutting back his conducting work due to health problems.
Matthew B. Tepper
news:1171256322.8...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
Have you so soon forgotten Klemperer? Or did you omit him on purpose?
jrs...@aol.com
> jrsn...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be typed innews:1171256322.8...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Feb 11, 8:38 pm, "GustavM" <mmt6...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> It takes a special conductor to make really slow tempos work.
> >> Segerstam and Celibidache are the only two I can think of offhand.
>
> > Sometimes Eschenbach makes them work, too. And of course Bernstein,
> > late in his life. I haven't listened to Mikko Franck's 80 minute
> > Mahler 5, but I hear he made that work well.
>
> Have you so soon forgotten Klemperer? Or did you omit him on purpose?
Klemperer was before my time. :-)
Actually, Klemperer didn't make slow tempi work all that well for me.
Not very often at least. Nor do I find his Bruckner or Mozart on EMI
particularly slow, and I like those recordings very much. I don't have
much other Klemperer from that period. I admit I do like his Mahler 7
though, and that is too slow for many other listeners. I like the
earlier, fiery Klemperer, who was no slowpoke. I don't mind his Bach
slow, in fact I may prefer it to what I've heard of his earlier Bach
recordings.
However, I don't much like Barbirolli's slow studio Mahler recordings
(not all of his studio Mahler is slow).
Knappertsbusch is another name that comes to mind. I like much of his
slow work and a lot more of his not-so-slow work.
Inouye is another slow conductor, come to think of it. And some of
MTT's Mahler 4 is quite slow and quite good.
Getting back to Segerstam, I like most of his Mahler slow, but his
Sibelius when it is too slow simply seems wrong to me, even though I
certainly respect it. And some of his Sibelius is great and not
particularly slow, so...what we're we discussing again?
--Jeff
eye...@aol.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtyLBBq9f_E
Michael Schaffer
Seriously? I find everything I heard from him intensely mediocre,
everything sounds "nice" and round, but without a distinctive musical
shape. He bulldozes over a lot of the fine details of the Sibelius
symphonies - both in the recordings I heard with the Danish RSO and
the HPO, but much more so in the latter case - and drowns everything
in a sauce of warm fuzziness. I agree these recordings sound agreeable
at first ear, but I don't think there is that much behind it, and on
repeated listening, I actually found them less and less interesting. A
typical example for Segerstam treatment is how he has the basses play
the Eb-Bb-Eb-D entry of the main motif in the last movement of the 5th
an octave lower than written, so it sounds boomier and "richer", and
he is totally destroying the effect Sibelius obviously intended by
writing celli and basses *in the same octave*. A very typical Sibelius
moment, a very typical touch of his unmistakeable handwriting, and
Segerstam just sacrifices that to some superficial effect.
I think an orchestra like the CSO deserves much better than such a
musical gourmand who just plows through pieces like that, like he
writes apparently dozens and dozens of symphonies.
Eric Nagamine
> On Feb 11, 2:02 pm, jrsn...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Feb 11, 8:34 am, phlmaestr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> I'm going to see him conduct the Philadelphia this afternoon. The
>>> review local of the Thursday performance sounded exactly like the
>>> stories you've heard. There was little rehearsal, and according to the
>>> critic, it showed (I'm hoping they'll be better by today). He
>>> apparently rams through the Debussy Prelude and Lam Mer and Schubert's
>>> 9th at break-neck speed. According to the review, the performances
>>> were pure excitement with no depth at all.
>>> Barry
>
> third and final performance of the program probably helped. The first
> performance is what is reviewed for the paper generally and the
> execution sometimes improves between Thursday and Saturday. But
> Gergiev certainly isn't a stickler for clarity and detail. That
> actually doesn't bother me as much as it may some people, but I agree
> that he'd be a risky selection. And knowing him, he'd want to add the
> job onto his others, rather than giving one up.
>
>
Seems he was doing double duty again this week conducting at the MET on
Friday night doing Onegin while doing the Thurs/Saturday/Sunday
performances in Philly. Someone told me that Gergiev is the only
conductor who has been late to a concert in Philadelphia in the last 25
years. Seems that on a previous visit he was conducting a matinee at the
MET and was late in getting back to Philadelphia. He really is a heart
attack waiting to happen burning the candle at both ends.
A friend of mine who subs in the MET said that Gergiev can be hard to
follow, but there's usually a sense of excitement not found in a lot of
other conductors.
Some how I couldn't see him doing double duty on two continents as Music
director of the Kirov and someplace in the U.S. Even for him it's
stretching it.
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mahlerb/broadcaststartpage.html
jrs...@aol.com
But he can always stop for a rest in Rotterdam and London on the way
from Kiev to Chicago. And then if he picks up directorship of the NHK
orchestra, he'd be able to hop across the globe like a giant
conductorial bunny.
--Jeff
jrs...@aol.com
My only encounter with him was memorable indeed, through a Proms
concert with Shostakovich 6 (the ECYO, I believe). It was a superb
performance. There's also a Minnesota Orchestra broadcast with him--
you can hear that online anytime from their radio-broadcast archive.
Actually, I think the Proms concert was uploaded to OperaShare. I
don't know if it is an active file. If you hear it, let me know if you
agree with my high opinion of it.
His father is/was Armin Jordan, as you probably know. The RAI just
last week broadcast a good Mahler 4 of his from a recent concert in
the Baltics, with the Liege Philharmonic on tour. Of course Armin did
a lot of really good work with the Suisse Romande orchestra and
elsewhere, including the soundtrack for the Parsifal movie that came
out a couple of decades ago..
--Jeff
TareeDawg
news:1171251651.2...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 11, 11:31 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
> jrsn...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be typed
> innews:1171219087....@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Feb 11, 9:48 am, sechumlib <sechum...@liberal.net> wrote:
> >> On 2007-02-11 11:41:12 -0500, jrsn...@aol.com said:
>
> >> > Now, some of the people on my own personal list...Gatti, Fischer,
> >> > Dudamel, Noseda, Volkov, Honeck (oops...gone!)...these names are
> >> > nowhere to be found in the article. That means they are equal to
> >> > Muti:
> >> > they are no guarantee.
>
> >> Which Fischer? Adam or Ivan?
>
> > Ivan. And Jurowski too. Vladimir, for sure, not necessarily Mikhail.
>
> > And Paavo Jarvi, Osmo Vanska, Jukka-Pekka Saraste and Sakari Oramo,
> > too, just for fun.
>
> Got any more Finns or Estonians you'd like to add to the list? Count out
> Osmo; he's on a mission in Minneapolis.
-I agree. I think it would be sad to see him leave Minneapolis. Maybe
-they can share him with Chicago? He could buy a nice appartment in
-Milwaukee and conduct there, too.
-Let's see...Sakari, Ikininen, Franck, Storgards, ...there are plenty
-of these candidates from the lands of minimal winter sun.
Whilst Paavo Berglund, one of the greatest Sibelians, and a Finn to boot, is
probably too old I suppose?
Besides which, he would terrorize the likes of the CSO.
<g>
Ray H
Taree, NSW
phlmae...@yahoo.com
> Friday night doing Onegin while doing the Thurs/Saturday/Sunday
> performances in Philly. Someone told me that Gergiev is the only
> conductor who has been late to a concert in Philadelphia in the last 25
> years. Seems that on a previous visit he was conducting a matinee at the
> MET and was late in getting back to Philadelphia. He really is a heart
> attack waiting to happen burning the candle at both ends.
>
>
>
Which explains the unusual circumstance of Jurowski conducting
thursday-Saturday and Tuesday (a normal rotation), but then coming
back again to conduct the same program on a second straight Friday (I
guess he had some free time and agreed to fill in the second Friday
since Gergiev would be at the Met).
Barry
GMS
> Besides which, he would terrorize the likes of the CSO.
> Ray H
> Taree, NSW
I've never worked with Berglund, but I've enjoyed many of his
recordings. I'd appreciate an explanation to your "terrorize the
likes" comment.
Regards,
Gary Stucka
Cellist, Unterrorizable Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Josep Vilanova
> My only encounter with him was memorable indeed, through a Proms
> concert with Shostakovich 6 (the ECYO, I believe). It was a superb
> performance. There's also a Minnesota Orchestra broadcast with him--
> you can hear that online anytime from their radio-broadcast archive.
> Actually, I think the Proms concert was uploaded to OperaShare. I
> don't know if it is an active file. If you hear it, let me know if you
> agree with my high opinion of it.
>
> His father is/was Armin Jordan, as you probably know. The RAI just
> last week broadcast a good Mahler 4 of his from a recent concert in
> the Baltics, with the Liege Philharmonic on tour. Of course Armin did
> a lot of really good work with the Suisse Romande orchestra and
> elsewhere, including the soundtrack for the Parsifal movie that came
> out a couple of decades ago..
>
> --Jeff
>
My experiences of Philippe Jordan are not that positive. I first saw him on
a Carmen in Glyndebourne that was ok, a very vital performance, but without
anything there being memorable. Then I saw him with the Philharmonia. They
did the Corolian overture, the Mozart PC 22 and Brahms Symphony 1. I found
that concert disappointing. His performances came across as slick, very
polished, with some nice details every now and then, but devoid of life. He
seemed to favour an orchestral sound without much bass, all very precise,
with overall fast tempi. Any sense of poetry, or warmth, or drama, was lost
in the process. It was something like the polar opposite of Furtwangler;
perhaps a good thing for some people, but it wasn't good for me.
j
jrs...@aol.com
> On Feb 12, 8:19 am, "TareeDawg" <rayto...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > Besides which, he would terrorize the likes of the CSO.
> > Ray H
> > Taree, NSW
>
> I've never worked with Berglund, but I've enjoyed many of his
> recordings. I'd appreciate an explanation to your "terrorize the
> likes" comment.
You mean you don' t have a backstage color warning system....green for
Giulini, yellow for Leinsdorf, orange for Toscanini, red for Reiner?
--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
news:1171308062.0...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com:
Grey for The Screaming Skull?
Michael Schaffer
That would probably be a good idea for recordings, in the form of
stickers on the cover...
oops
Seriously now, I have never played under Berglund either and
unfortunately only saw him once in concert (but that was very good,
Sibelius 6 with the BP), but I specifically remember the Philharmonics
had a very good opinion of him. Quiet, but saying to the point what he
wanted, prepared, professional, unshowy and very clear in his
conducting (he holds the baton in his left hand, BTW) with very active
visual communication with players.
I also remember when I saw him in concert (I sat behind the orchestra)
his tails left a strong impression on me, they had some nice
folkloristic embellishments on the front flaps (lapels or whatever
these are called).
TareeDawg
news:1171293992.1...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
Firstly, I mentioned Paavo Berglund, because he seemed an obvious omission,
as a Finn. As regards the "terrorizing" mention, and not being an orchestral
musician myself, I can't directly explain his approach to orchestras, but on
the 'grapevine' I have heard he is a pretty hard taskmaster. I am not
suggesting the likes of Fritz Reiner here, even though 'his' reputation is
built up, to the many here, on what they have read.
I heard Berglund many times live, whilst living in Portsmouth, UK, with the
Bournemouth SO, and many of his performances were firmly controlled, and
tight. I was also in the audience on two occasions, the first when Berglund
stopped the Eroica mid first movement, and turned and stared across the
audience towards the back of the hall (apparently it was reported he had
heard some building construction work going on outside). After a while, he
turned back to the orchestra and started the Eroica off from scratch again.
But many of us in the audience were paralysed with fear. The second occasion
was as Berglund was preparing himself to commence a work, when a "cougher"
started up in the audience, and Paavo saw red. Again he turned and
shrivelled the "cougher" with a stare that lasted for a "considerable" time.
Seemed like ages. No big deal, but again it made us feel more than a tad
uncomfortable. He is as tough as old rope too, because on another occasion
he appeared complete with plaster cast on one leg, result of a car accident.
It was initially thought he had done his leg in playing soccer (a game he
follows). He conducted mostly sitting down with leg outstretched.
As for "the likes" part of my comment, well, as a pretty big orchestra, I
presumed that you should be able to deal with many of the 'harder' men/women
with some ease. I did have the privilege of hearing the CSO live in the late
70s, with Giulini. I was at the very top back, in hang glider territory.
Good sound from there though, if a bit distant.
Ray H
Taree, NSW
MSWD...@gmail.com
The second occasion
> was as Berglund was preparing himself to commence a work, when a "cougher"
> started up in the audience, and Paavo saw red. Again he turned and
> shrivelled the "cougher" with a stare that lasted for a "considerable" time.
> Seemed like ages. No big deal, but again it made us feel more than a tad
> uncomfortable. He is as tough as old rope too, because on another occasion
A friend of mine was at an SFSO (or is it SFS?) concert with MTT. He
also turned full around mid-movement to stare down a very loud hacker,
but he continued to conduct, his hands arching back over his head. I
wonder what the orchestra thought about that trick...
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:1171321385.8...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:
Neville Marriner used to throw the stinkeye at latecomers in Minneapolis.
Richard Schultz
: Neville Marriner used to throw the stinkeye at latecomers in Minneapolis.
Peter Schickele (in his "PDQ Bach Farewell Tour") just made fun of them
as they came in. Sometimes I think that it might be fun if once in a while
a conductor would throw a tantrum when one too many cell phones goes off.
Something along the lines of "This concert will not continue until that
person is taken out and shot."
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"