Hatto-Kormendi unidentified
ckho...@ckhowell.com
Ever since Klara Kormendi's Naxos CD of Debussy was "identified" as
the source for "La plus que lente" I've been trying to get hold of
this disc which Naxos still list as available on their site but which
after a long wait turned out to be "discontinued".
I have finally had access to the disc and it is NOT the source for the
"Hatto". It's true that at the beginning the two are sufficiently
close in tempo to induce a suspicion that "Hatto" is Kormendi put
through an echo chamber. But anyone with access to both should hear
from the pause on page 2. The pause itself is treated differently by
the pianists, then follow all sorts of different rubatos, and the two
pianists both make occasional use of left-hand-before-right, but in
different places.
While I was about it I checked the Kormendi Arabesques against
"Hatto". No match there either.
Christopher Howell
Rugby
Any luck yet on the Rachmaninoff Op.33 Etudes ? I am still fond of my
Webster theory,although his was an lp.
ckho...@ckhowell.com
> Kormendi (at my suggestion, after hearing a short online sample).
>
> Best,
>
> mrt
Mario, I've just looked up your original posting because I remembered
this:
I got word from Abe Schwarts that he is sure that the Joyce Hatto and
>Klara Körmendi "La plus que lente" match. He did it purely by ear by
>repeated listening over a couple of days. He did comment that he was
>puzzled by what sounded like a coughing fit in the Kormendi recording
>(at between 44 and 46 seconds into the piece) but were absent in the
>Hatto.
There's no coughing fit in my Kormendi. I've just checked again on
headphones, pretty loud, up to 50 seconds or so.
I've got Kormendi on 8.550253 which is all Debussy. It's also on
8.553279 which is Debussy/Ravel. Maybe both are highlights from more
extensive projects. Naxos would presumably have alternative takes in
their vaults with which to edit out the coughing in later reissues. If
they substituted another complete take, perhaps that's the source for
the Hatto, but how did WBC edit out the coughing?
To my ears, the Hatto pianist has considerably greater refinement of
nuance than Kormendi, and I don't see how that could be changed by
Naxos' substituting another Kormendi take to clean up the coughing,
but that's subjective and I prefer to base identifications on rubato,
pedalling, left-before-right etc which can be objectively observed.
Christopher
Andrew Rose
If you can get me MP3s of both I'll take a look at them - certainly
coughing can be pretty easy to deal with using the same kind of software
that will stretch and compress tempi...
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
ckho...@ckhowell.com
> coughing can be pretty easy to deal with using the same kind of software
> that will stretch and compress tempi...
>
> --
> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
>
> - Mostra testo tra virgolette -
For some reason my computer will download and play MP3s but won't make
them. I can send CDRs to any address you care to name.
However, unless we can know exactly what Abe Schwartz has, and why his
Kormendi has a fit of coughing that mine doesn't have, the exercise
seems pointless. The Kormendi I've got isn't the source for Hatto, so
it only becomes interesting if it turns out that an earlier issue of
the Kormendi had a different performance, rather than the same one
before the coughing was edited out.
Christopher
MrT
> > If you can get me MP3s of both I'll take a look at them - certainly
> > coughing can be pretty easy to deal with using the same kind of software
> > that will stretch and compress tempi...
>
> > --
> > Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
>
> > - Mostra testo tra virgolette -
>
> For some reason my computer will download and play MP3s but won't make
> them. I can send CDRs to any address you care to name.
>
> However, unless we can know exactly what Abe Schwartz has, and why his
> Kormendi has a fit of coughing that mine doesn't have, the exercise
> seems pointless. The Kormendi I've got isn't the source for Hatto, so
> it only becomes interesting if it turns out that an earlier issue of
> the Kormendi had a different performance, rather than the same one
> before the coughing was edited out.
Chris, I forwarded the question to Abe, though he may be on vacation.
Another possibility is that there is more than one Kormendi recording.
One would only hear coughs in a concert performance, never in the
studio. By the way, does anyone know anything about pianist Istvan
Szekely?
Best regards,
mrt
Andrew Rose
Just as a point of clarification then, as I'm recording an interview for
Irish radio on Friday on the subject and I know one of the questions wil
involve the identification of tracks by such devices as coughs - the
apparent chopping and changing of originals for Hatto releases suggests
this is a partially valid approach for those with listening equipment
only? And also that it's quite possible that one person's 'Hatto' might
be completely different to another's?
ckho...@ckhowell.com
> Just as a point of clarification then, as I'm recording an interview for
> Irish radio on Friday on the subject and I know one of the questions wil
> involve the identification of tracks by such devices as coughs - the
> apparent chopping and changing of originals for Hatto releases suggests
> this is a partially valid approach for those with listening equipment
> only? And also that it's quite possible that one person's 'Hatto' might
> be completely different to another's?
>
> --
> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
This particular cough seems to be a Kormendi mystery not a Hatto one.
Abe Schwartz was convinced of the match even though there was a
coughing fit on Kormendi and not on Hatto.
My Kormendi has no coughing fit and I'm quite sure it isn't the source
for Hatto. Naxos issued the Kormendi on at least two different discs
and until Mario get a reply from Abe Schwartz we don't know which he
has.
More generally, I doubt if coughing is going to help amateur sleuths
trying to identify a "Hatto" since none are live recordings. To
identify a "Hatto" by ears alone you have to study things like
pedalling, left-before-right, rubato, ornaments (in earlier music). If
you're not a pianist, preferably with a score in hand, I should think
it's very easy to "imagine" things.
Re alternative "Hattos", I suppose another possibility is that Abe
Schwartz has a different "Hatto" "La plus que lente" and his is from
Kormendi, but these cases are not all that common. The Liszt/Simon/
Nojima situation is well-known, Farhan Malik has found a few Beethoven
sonatas where some discs have O'Conor and some don't (but not many),
Brahms op.118 has four pieces from Ranki in the version coupled with
Brahms 2 (ex Ashkenazy) but only two in Brahms vol.5. Some versions of
Debussy's "Bruyères" have the first two notes played twice (an editing
glitch on the original Tateno), some have it corrected. My Brahms op.
118 (coupled with PC2) has no.4 played twice, while no other copy with
this oddity has come to light. However, these cases seem fortunately
rare.
Christopher
>
> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com- Nascondi testo tra virgolette -
MrT
> MrT wrote:
> > On Jun 27, 7:34 am, ckhow...@ckhowell.com wrote:
> >>> If you can get me MP3s of both I'll take a look at them - certainly
> >>> coughing can be pretty easy to deal with using the same kind of software
> >>> that will stretch and compress tempi...
> >>> --
> >>> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
> >>> - Mostra testo tra virgolette -
> >> For some reason my computer will download and play MP3s but won't make
> >> them. I can send CDRs to any address you care to name.
>
> >> However, unless we can know exactly what Abe Schwartz has, and why his
> >> Kormendi has a fit of coughing that mine doesn't have, the exercise
> >> seems pointless. The Kormendi I've got isn't the source for Hatto, so
> >> it only becomes interesting if it turns out that an earlier issue of
> >> the Kormendi had a different performance, rather than the same one
> >> before the coughing was edited out.
>
> > Chris, I forwarded the question to Abe, though he may be on vacation.
> > Another possibility is that there is more than one Kormendi recording.
> > One would only hear coughs in a concert performance, never in the
> > studio. By the way, does anyone know anything about pianist Istvan
> > Szekely?
>
> Just as a point of clarification then, as I'm recording an interview for
> Irish radio on Friday on the subject and I know one of the questions wil
> involve the identification of tracks by such devices as coughs - the
> apparent chopping and changing of originals for Hatto releases suggests
> this is a partially valid approach for those with listening equipment
> only? And also that it's quite possible that one person's 'Hatto' might
> be completely different to another's?
>
Andrew, I don't know what to tell you about this. There have been a
few different Hatto recordings of the same piece, but that has been
the exception so far. I don't know that there are two or more Hatto
versions of La plus que lente. My question was whether there are two
Kormendis, and I don't know the answer to that. A priori, I would say
it's unlikely.
Best,
mrt