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Which Ring cycle to get - Solti or Keilberth?

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rubio

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Feb 10, 2007, 3:50:58 PM2/10/07
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Now, I'm ready to get more into Wagner, as I'm now listening to
Solti's Walkure on Decca which I find really nice! So, now I will
plunge out for a ring cycle, and I wonder if I should get the classic
Solti set or the recently released, critically hailed Kleiberth Ring
on Testament. Has anybody here had the chance to compare these sets
and can give any descriptions?

William Sommerwerck

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Feb 10, 2007, 4:31:06 PM2/10/07
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I'm being nasty when I say you should avoid the Kleiberth, simply because
it's so grotesquely overpriced.

I'd buy the Solti, and put aside the money you saved by not buying the
Kleiberth to purchase some other good set at a later date.

Me, I'm waiting for Kleibert to be remaindered at $2 a disk, or reissued by
LaserLight.


Richard Loeb

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Feb 10, 2007, 4:48:33 PM2/10/07
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"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NbGdnWmkAaV6pFPY...@comcast.com...

I thought I saw the Keilberth Ring on Cantus - yes for a first Ring go for
the Solti. Richard

>


Chris

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Feb 10, 2007, 4:58:02 PM2/10/07
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I'll be as objective as possibe:

Sound quality on both are excellent, but Solti's is a studio
recording, has sound effects, and of course, no stage noises.
Keilberth's is live, and has the problems (which can be easily
overlooked) associated with that.

Price advantage goes to Solti: You can get it for close to $100 from
overstock.com if you find some online coupons. Keilberth will run you
close to $300.

Packaging advantage goes to Solti: Nice box set, full librettos, and
it's fairly compact.

Both have strong artistic merits, but in my opinion, if you buy
Keilberth, and fall in love with The Ring, you will inevitably buy
Solti anyway....so why not buy Solti now and wait for Keilberth to get
rereleased at a lower price?

On Feb 10, 3:48 pm, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote in message

alanwa...@aol.com

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Feb 10, 2007, 4:59:45 PM2/10/07
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On Feb 10, 9:31?pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

I swallowed hard and went for the Keilberth LP option (which makes the
CDs a bargain) simply because I have equipment far better equipped for
LPs than CD and roughly 75 per cent of my "collection" is LP and I
have no plans to change that.

Best balance (on the LPs of Das Rheingold) I have heard from Bayreuth
of that period. No idea what the CDs are like.

Wonderful singing however which hopefully survives either medium.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

Paul Ilechko

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Feb 10, 2007, 5:13:37 PM2/10/07
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I'm not enough of a Wagner fanatic to have multiple rings, but I have
and enjoy the Solti. However, if price is an issue, what about
Janowski/Staatskapelle Dresden? It has great singers, has received
primarily good reviews, and can be had used from Amazon sellers for
around $50.

Juan I. Cahis

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Feb 10, 2007, 6:55:18 PM2/10/07
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Yes, you can find the Keilberth set on small (pirate?) labels, but the
big difference with the Testament set is its sound, which is superb
and stereo. The other Bayreuth sets on small (pirate?) labels,
normally, they sell the same music but picked by a mono AM radio
transmission. A world of difference in sound.

"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote:

Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!

david...@aol.com

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Feb 10, 2007, 7:10:51 PM2/10/07
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On Feb 10, 4:31 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> I'm being nasty when I say you should avoid the Kleiberth, simply because
> it's so grotesquely overpriced.

Guillaume,

I agree that the price is absurd, the distribution of Siegfried over
four discs being especially unconscionable. Money aside, though,
which would you prefer? I haven't heard a note of Keilberth's Ring,
but the only installment of the Solti Ring I don't have major
reservations about is the Siegfried.

-david gable

Juan I. Cahis

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Feb 10, 2007, 7:21:29 PM2/10/07
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Dear David & friends:

I prefer Keilberth's Siegfried to Solti. I cannot tolerate Gerhard
Stolze's Mime with his clown-like voice. Also, I don't like all the
sound effects that are included, in Solti set, every time that Fafner
appears in the scene.

"david...@aol.com" <david...@aol.com> wrote:

William Sommerwerck

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Feb 10, 2007, 8:04:38 PM2/10/07
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>> I'm being nasty when I say you should avoid the Kleiberth,
>> simply because it's so grotesquely overpriced.

> Guillaume,

As I'm of German extraction, I'd prefer Wilhelm. <grin>


> I agree that the price is absurd, the distribution of Siegfried over
> four discs being especially unconscionable. Money aside, though,
> which would you prefer? I haven't heard a note of Keilberth's Ring,
> but the only installment of the Solti Ring I don't have major
> reservations about is the Siegfried.

I haven't heard the Keilberth, though I'd very much like to.

Until the CD edition, I always found the Solti "Seigfried" to be the weakest
of the series, simply because I didn't find the work itself very appealing.
The CD changed that.

If I had any strong criticism of the Solti, I'd say it was a little too
"energetic". An "ideal" performance would be more romantic and
self-indulgently introspective. But I've heard the Solti at least a
half-dozen times, and other performances (of which I like the Boulez, an
altogether different interpretation), and see no good reason not to give it
a warm recommendation.

The issue here is which recording "rubio" should choose as his first Ring.
Almost everyone * likes the Solti set, and as it is generally considered one
of the landmark recordings in the history of recording, why shouldn't it be
his first set? But not his last.

* There's a female critic who absolutely despises it. But I don't remember
where I read her essay.


wkasimer

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Feb 10, 2007, 8:45:58 PM2/10/07
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On Feb 10, 4:31 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> I'm being nasty when I say you should avoid the Kleiberth, simply because


> it's so grotesquely overpriced.

I can't help but comment that when one considers inflation, the
Keilberth on Testament is considerably cheaper than the Solti was when
it was first issued.

With a choice between the Solti and the Keilberth, I'd choose the
latter, without hesitation. Generally better sung, and certainly more
consistently cast (Solti's Rheingold is, essentially, a completely
different cast from the rest of the operas). And I prefer the more
straightforward, less gimmicky sound of the Keilberth.

Bill

wkasimer

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Feb 10, 2007, 8:48:39 PM2/10/07
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On Feb 10, 4:58 pm, "Chris" <sxech...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Price advantage goes to Solti: You can get it for close to $100 from
> overstock.com if you find some online coupons. Keilberth will run you
> close to $300.

About $250 from MDT, including postage. And worth every penny.

Bill

Edward A. Cowan

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Feb 10, 2007, 9:20:27 PM2/10/07
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You can find, in _Opera_ magazine, October, 1955, pp.639-641 -- each
volume is paginated continuously from issue to issue -- a review of
the 1955 Bayreuth _Ring_ cond. Keilberth that is anything but
favorable. Peter Heyworth disliked the production and most especially
the orchestral playing. As for the singing, apart from the expected
praise for Hotter, Moedl, Neidlinger, and Windgassen, most of the
singing comes in for criticism.

Mind you, I have not heard this celebrated set of the _Ring_ from
Testament. The Keilberth set that I have -- there have been several,
including the celebrated "Allegro _Ring_" of 1953 -- is the one from
1952, with its unusual casting in several roles. I have not heard it
in some time, so I hope RSN to rehear it and report back. Meanwhile,
perhaps someone here has heard the 1952 cycle more recently and can
comment upon it. And perhaps someone will read Heyworth's review and
write a rebuttal to it here. --E.A.C.


On Feb 10, 2:50 pm, "rubio" <espen.kibsga...@bredbandsservice.no>
wrote:

Bob Harper

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Feb 10, 2007, 10:27:19 PM2/10/07
to
Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> You can find, in _Opera_ magazine, October, 1955, pp.639-641 -- each
> volume is paginated continuously from issue to issue -- a review of
> the 1955 Bayreuth _Ring_ cond. Keilberth that is anything but
> favorable. Peter Heyworth disliked the production and most especially
> the orchestral playing. As for the singing, apart from the expected
> praise for Hotter, Moedl, Neidlinger, and Windgassen, most of the
> singing comes in for criticism.
>
> Mind you, I have not heard this celebrated set of the _Ring_ from
> Testament. The Keilberth set that I have -- there have been several,
> including the celebrated "Allegro _Ring_" of 1953 -- is the one from
> 1952, with its unusual casting in several roles. I have not heard it
> in some time, so I hope RSN to rehear it and report back. Meanwhile,
> perhaps someone here has heard the 1952 cycle more recently and can
> comment upon it. And perhaps someone will read Heyworth's review and
> write a rebuttal to it here. --E.A.C.
>
The 1953 Ring (the one on Allegro) was conducted by Clemens Krauss, and
it's pretty special. Not stereo, alas, but pretty good mono, at least in
this latest incarnation, and *very* reasonable.

Bob Harper

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 10, 2007, 11:07:24 PM2/10/07
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Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:AIudnYEZ1by8EFPY...@comcast.com:

No, Herr Doktor Professor Cowan was right. There were two Ring cycles in
1953. It was the Keilberth which was issued pseudonymously by cheapie label
Allegro, a set with *very* low production values. Krauss had the other
cycle, generally highly regarded for its casting and conducting, and this is
the one which has been available variously in recent years.

The casts were identical except that Keilberth had Nilsson as Brünnhilde, and
Krauss had Varnay.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 10, 2007, 11:07:23 PM2/10/07
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"Edward A. Cowan" <eac...@hughes.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1171160427.932860.244720
@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:

> You can find, in _Opera_ magazine, October, 1955, pp.639-641 -- each
> volume is paginated continuously from issue to issue

Ah, the way Gramophone used to be, before it commenced jumping the shark.

> -- a review of the 1955 Bayreuth _Ring_ cond. Keilberth that is anything
> but favorable. Peter Heyworth disliked the production and most especially
> the orchestral playing. As for the singing, apart from the expected
> praise for Hotter, Moedl, Neidlinger, and Windgassen, most of the singing
> comes in for criticism.

Ah, but that was in comparison to what else was available "live" in the
day, and what was fondly remembered from recent years by the listener, even
from the pre-war years. For example, my mental comparisons these days are
made with singers I heard twenty or thirty years ago. In 1955, Heyworth
would have been thinking of Leider, Lawrence, maybe the Konetzni sisters,
and most of all the young Melchior.

Also consider that this stereo Keilberth Ring has had the benefit of maybe
forty years of free publicity, thanks to John Culshaw.

Paul Ilechko

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Feb 10, 2007, 11:22:42 PM2/10/07
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Matthew B. Tepper wrote:

> Ah, the way Gramophone used to be, before it commenced jumping the shark.

I don't know how anyone can use that phrase without squirming into a
ball of embarrassed blubber.

Bob Harper

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Feb 11, 2007, 1:42:05 AM2/11/07
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I sit corrected. Clearly I am a very imperfect Wagnerite. In addition, I
think we're talking different Allegros (the current Opera d'Oro set
comes from Allegro Corp. in Portland, which I assume is not connected
with the other?) At any rate, a good deal with some great singing and
conducting.

Bob Harper

Lasse

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Feb 11, 2007, 1:53:43 AM2/11/07
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On Feb 11, 6:07 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:


>
> No, Herr Doktor Professor Cowan was right. There were two Ring cycles in
> 1953.
>

> The casts were identical except that Keilberth had Nilsson as Brünnhilde, and
> Krauss had Varnay.

No way. Birgit Nilsson made her debut in Bayreuth 1954 as Ortrud, I
don't think she sang Brunnhilde
there before 1956 or 57.
I have a Keilberth Ring from 1952 (Varnay Brunnhilde) on Archipel.
It's in decent sound, most singers are in great
voice but I can't say I find Keilberth as exciting as say Krauss or
Knappertsbusch. Have not heard the Testament
Ring from 1955 though.


r/l


Todd Schurk

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Feb 11, 2007, 3:09:37 AM2/11/07
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On Feb 10, 8:07 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed innews:AIudnYEZ1by8EFPY...@comcast.com:
> My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
> My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html

> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet

Krauss had Varnay in his '53 cycle, but I believe Keilbreth had Modl
as his Brunnhilde in '53.

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 11, 2007, 4:12:56 AM2/11/07
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Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:537k0iF...@mid.individual.net:

Were you born an asshole or did you work hard for many years to become one?

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 11, 2007, 4:12:56 AM2/11/07
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"Todd Schurk" <patte...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the

following letters to be typed in
news:1171181377.5...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com:

> Krauss had Varnay in his '53 cycle, but I believe Keilbreth had Modl
> as his Brunnhilde in '53.

Oops, now I'm the one who sits corrected. Thanks.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!

My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 11, 2007, 4:12:56 AM2/11/07
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Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:WsGdnXqizaxUJ1PY...@comcast.com:

> I sit corrected. Clearly I am a very imperfect Wagnerite. In addition, I
> think we're talking different Allegros (the current Opera d'Oro set comes
> from Allegro Corp. in Portland, which I assume is not connected with the
> other?) At any rate, a good deal with some great singing and conducting.

That edition of Keilberth's 1953 Bayreuth Ring was a set of pirated LPs
issued back in the mid 1950s. In addition to the bad sound and the awful
editing, the pressings were decidedly crappy.

Michael Schaffer

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Feb 11, 2007, 6:22:26 AM2/11/07
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I bought that for $8.99 or so from amazon last year. No kidding. New.
But that deal is long gone.

rubio

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Feb 11, 2007, 6:29:26 AM2/11/07
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I have already borrowed Solti's Walkure from the library and I
absolutely like it. The problem is that I don't have any references. I
have the oppertunity to borrow the whole cycle by Solti from the
library before I plunge out. They even have the Siegfried from the
Keilberth/Testament, so at least I have the oppertunity to check which
Siegfried I like the most.


Paul Ilechko

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Feb 11, 2007, 7:53:49 AM2/11/07
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Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:537k0iF...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, the way Gramophone used to be, before it commenced jumping the shark.
>> I don't know how anyone can use that phrase without squirming into a
>> ball of embarrassed blubber.
>
> Were you born an asshole or did you work hard for many years to become one?
>

Fuck you.

Karafan

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Feb 11, 2007, 9:38:35 AM2/11/07
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I have both Keilberth and Solti. With the keilberth you do get the frisson
of live performance but Solti's box exudes the care and sense of perfection
he and Culshaw lavished on it.

The sound on the Keilberth is remarkably good stereo with a good spatial
sense of the famous Bayreuth acoustic. The stage noise isn't too intrusive.
The VPO for Solti play like gods - listen to the vengeance trio in
Goetterdaemmerung, and of course La Nilsson's laser beam of a voice cutting
through the orchestral tumult is wonderfully thrilling. You pays your
money.....

Also enjoyed recently - the whipcrack and very reasonably priced live
Bohm/Nilsson cycle on Philips from 1967. Windgassen is extraordinarily good
and the sound is very vivid.
"rubio" <espen.k...@bredbandsservice.no> wrote in message
news:1171193366.6...@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 11, 2007, 2:31:02 PM2/11/07
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Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:538hutF...@mid.individual.net:

And there's my answer; it was the many years of hard work.

alanwa...@aol.com

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Feb 11, 2007, 5:09:14 PM2/11/07
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On Feb 10, 9:31?pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>

wrote:
> I'm being nasty when I say you should avoid the Kleiberth, simply because
> it's so grotesquely overpriced.
>
> I'd buy the Solti, and put aside the money you saved by not buying the
> Kleiberth to purchase some other good set at a later date.
>
> Me, I'm waiting for Kleibert to be remaindered at $2 a disk, or reissued by
> LaserLight.

However, Testament have the greatest recorded account of Scheherazade
that I have ever heard on a recording and for me that is a bargain
(musically).

RPO/Kempe SBT 1280.

Just a personal opinion, of course.

Absolutely wonderful playing by the orchestra and better than for
Beecham in this score, I would suggest.

Jim

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Feb 11, 2007, 5:57:38 PM2/11/07
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Does anyone have any thoughts on the Karajan?


On Feb 11, 5:09 pm, "alanwatkin...@aol.com" <alanwatkin...@aol.com>
wrote:

Feuillade

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Feb 11, 2007, 6:05:47 PM2/11/07
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On Feb 11, 5:57 pm, "Jim" <jamesatkinspritch...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have any thoughts on the Karajan?
>

Nice recording, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Or my second choice.

Or my third choice.

Given that I haven't heard the Testament Keilberth yet (I'm waiting
until *after* I win the lottery), I would rank the Ring Cycles to buy
in this order.

1) Solti
2) Bohm
3) Krauss Bayreuth 53
4) Furtwangler RAI
5) Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 56

2) and 3) are practically a tie.

If you've gotten all five, then I would go with Moralt, and then maybe
Karajan.

Tom Moran


david...@aol.com

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Feb 11, 2007, 6:36:35 PM2/11/07
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Just about the only Keilberth performance I know is the live Arabella
on DG with Della Casa, Rothenberger, and Fischer-Dieskau: the
comments of Bill Kasimer and others have made me curious to hear at
least the Siegfried from the Keilberth Ring. In the opinion of the
perfect Wagnerites, what are the relative merits of the live Bayreuth
Ring's with Keilberth, Knappertsbuch, and Clemens Krauss: not of the
singing or the quality of the recording but of the conducted
performance?

I haven't heard the Solti Rheingold in years, but, for what it's
worth, I'm much less enthusiastic about the Solti Walküre and
Götterdämmerung than the Siegfried. I normally don't think of Solti
as the most distinctive of micromanagers when it comes to phrasing,
but, even at the level of the tiniest individual motive or gesture,
his shaping of the Siegfried strikes me as extraordinary, both his
surprisingly refined shaping at the level of the motives and the way
he projects the broader sweep of the thing. (Solti's elastic handling
of the prelude to Act I and the beautiful way he delineates the
individual motives, for example, are not to be believed.) I don't
feel the same way about the Walküre and Götterdämmerung at all: he
muscles his way through Götterdämmerung one disjointed episode after
another. Not that there isn't a lot of pleasure to be derived from
the raw energy and gorgeous playing, but this is not exactly first
class music making.

-david gable

Richard Loeb

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Feb 11, 2007, 7:55:17 PM2/11/07
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"Feuillade" <Feui...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1171235146.9...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Well 2 and 3 are living proof that speed alone that doesn't mean much - both
are fast but Bohms lickety-split, surface reading is totally devoid of the
dramatic import that infuses the also quick Krauss reading. Richard


wkasimer

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Feb 11, 2007, 10:16:49 PM2/11/07
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On Feb 11, 1:53 am, "Lasse" <vandenbrou...@eurosport.com> wrote:

> No way. Birgit Nilsson made her debut in Bayreuth 1954 as Ortrud,

Actually, she sang Elsa.

Bill

jrs...@aol.com

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Feb 12, 2007, 12:30:01 AM2/12/07
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It's got first-class excitement, though. If the original poster liked
one of the set, I think he'll like them all and should proceed to buy
the whole cycle. A generation or two of Wagnerians got hooked on this
music because of the intensity and vividness of Solti's (Culshaw's;
the Vienna Philharmonic's, whoever's) recording. There's no need to
shy away from getting it now that it is relatively cheap.

But I would ultimately recommend Krauss for a more sophisticated (and
still very exciting, passionate, dramatic, sensuous) live performance.
It exudes all the things that make Wagner engrossing theater--even
more than the theatrical gimmickry that makes Solti tick (very well, I
might add).

I am hardly a "Perfect Wagnerite," but I know one when I hear one,
like Krauss.

--Jeff

Richard Loeb

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Feb 12, 2007, 5:16:12 AM2/12/07
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<jrs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1171258201.4...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...

--Jeff

The flaccid sounding Keilberth of the 60s is very different from the more
vibrant work of the 1950s and the mid-50s found him in top form. Not a
candidate for the pantheon of great Wagner conductors - his work is just not
all that distinctive - but it can often be exciting and very beautiful - I
would also recommned the 1953 Lohengrin - much better than the more highly
touted Kempe stereo set which has a lot going wrong for it. BTW the latest
Allegro incarnation of the Krauss Ring is superbly remastered and presented.
Richard


ukr...@yahoo.com

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Feb 12, 2007, 3:48:49 PM2/12/07
to
I think it is critical for the listener to know how much an 'old'
sound will affect their listening pleasure. Solti is the 'Gold
Standard' of sorts. Everything gets compared to it and it has some
incredibly great moments. And if modern sound is a requirement, I
think it is, hands down, the best set for most people to get. And
let's face it, the sound of a Wagner recording when the stereo is
blazing (and the family is out) is hard to get if the recording has
too much age.

Many of these other great sets have 'issues' because of how long ago
they were recorded. The Krauss set, although the sound drives me crazy
sometimes, has some wonderful singing and story-telling/drama indeed
and can be had for a relatively low price compared to many of the
other great recordings. It is currently in an Opera D'Oro pressing for
about $50 (supposedly the best of many pressings), and will bring you
great value for money even if you want to supplement it with others.

And depending on your knowledge of the RIng, the Introduction with
Cooke (first name doesn't come to mind) and Solti is very useful.
Helps explain a lot of the music and the motifs. It can be had
separately, and is something I'd recommend for anyone learning the
RIng or wanting to know more.

In the end, I chose the Solti and Krauss editions. And I only got
Krauss becuase I got it was on sale for like $35-40, and I thought -
shoot, I gotta hear what everyone else is talking about. The Keilberth
is just too much money in my opinion. You can buy like 30 sets/discs
from Berkshire for that money!

But, I would listen away and see what you like. Sounds like a lot of
fun ahead!

makropulos

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Feb 12, 2007, 4:05:43 PM2/12/07
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On Feb 12, 12:55 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Feuillade" <Feuill...@aol.com> wrote in message


Ho Hum. It takes all sorts to make a world, I suppose. I find Böhm's
conducting both exciting and dramatically powerful (it's one of my
favourite Rings along with Fürt/RAI). By contrast I've never really
understood the passionate enthusiasm for Krauss's Ring which has
always struck me as lightweight.

Curtis Croulet

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Feb 12, 2007, 4:18:58 PM2/12/07
to
> I find Böhm's conducting both exciting and dramatically powerful > (it's
> one of my favourite Rings along with Fürt/RAI).

Culshaw had some very derogatory things to say about it in "Ring
Resounding."
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W


rubio

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Feb 12, 2007, 4:41:08 PM2/12/07
to
Thank you all for interesting answers.

In fact, I would say that there's something attractive with opera
recordings in historical sound. Maybe, I feel some of the singing in
some of the more modern recordings can be a bit over-whelming. I
really like the old Maria Callas stuff, so maybe I will have the same
relationship with Wagner? And then maybe even the Krauss cycle could
be very good. It's a bit attractive as it is cheaper than many other
sets. So maybe that could be a good start?

Feuillade

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Feb 12, 2007, 5:02:13 PM2/12/07
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On Feb 12, 4:41 pm, "rubio" <espen.kibsga...@bredbandsservice.no>
wrote:
You could do a lot worse. :)

Tom Moran

Matthew B. Tepper

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Feb 12, 2007, 8:26:22 PM2/12/07
to
"Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:6R4Ah.910$hp4.737@trnddc02:

>> I find Böhm's conducting both exciting and dramatically powerful
>> (it's one of my favourite Rings along with Fürt/RAI).
>
> Culshaw had some very derogatory things to say about it in "Ring
> Resounding."

And indeed he was entitled to his opinions. One must, however, keep in
mind that the Böhm Ring was for him "the competition."

Curtis Croulet

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Feb 12, 2007, 10:09:45 PM2/12/07
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> And indeed he was entitled to his opinions. One must, however, keep in
> mind that the Böhm Ring was for him "the competition."

Yes, but his remarks are entertaining to read, just the same.

Curtis Croulet

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Feb 12, 2007, 11:19:48 PM2/12/07
to

Actually, Böhm's Ring wasn't available to the public when Culshaw wrote his
book. Böhm may have been competition in the broad scheme of things, but not
for the record-buying public.

Feuillade

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Feb 13, 2007, 12:21:29 AM2/13/07
to
On Feb 12, 11:19 pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
wrote:

> Actually, Böhm's Ring wasn't available to the public when Culshaw wrote his
> book. Böhm may have been competition in the broad scheme of things, but not
> for the record-buying public.
>
Speaking of the record-buying public, I just saw that the Boulez Ring
Cycle is available on CD. Price comparable to the Bohm.

Tom Moran

david...@aol.com

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Feb 13, 2007, 1:13:53 AM2/13/07
to
On Feb 13, 12:21 am, "Feuillade" <Feuill...@aol.com> wrote:

> Speaking of the record-buying public, I just saw that the Boulez Ring
> Cycle is available on CD. Price comparable to the Bohm.

Although one really should be warned that Miss Jones's voice is in
complete tatters in the Siegfried, flapping like a torn flag in the
wind, and very nearly so in the Goetterdaemmerung while the Siegfried
has the sophistication of an awkward bull. (Jones fares rather better
in the very different music for the Walkuere Bruennhilde, although
we're not talking Frida Leider's technique in any case.)

-david gable

david...@aol.com

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Feb 13, 2007, 1:18:32 AM2/13/07
to
On Feb 12, 4:41 pm, "rubio" <espen.kibsga...@bredbandsservice.no>
wrote:
> Thank you all for interesting answers.
>
> In fact, I would say that there's something attractive with opera
> recordings in historical sound. Maybe, I feel some of the singing in
> some of the more modern recordings can be a bit over-whelming. I
> really like the old Maria Callas stuff, so maybe I will have the same
> relationship with Wagner?

AH! Then you ought to hear Miss Callas sing "Dolce e calmo" from
Tristano ed Isotta both on the 1949 Cetra recording and at the Athens
concert from 1956 (?). Votto's conducting in Athens is very fine.
(I'm much less of a Parsi-phile, but there's also the Kundry under
Gui.)

-david gable

Josep Vilanova

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Feb 13, 2007, 4:24:51 AM2/13/07
to


On 13/2/07 06:13, in article
1171347232.9...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com, "david...@aol.com"
<david...@aol.com> wrote:


Watching that Ring on TV was my introduction to Wagner and I still love it
(on the DVD incarnation). Jones' voice wobble, that's true, but she is such
a humane actress that watching her made me forget about her vocal problems.
The direction was by the great Patrice Chereau, who I greatly admire and who
has done one of my favourite films (l'homme blesse). Then, this is not a
Ring I would choose for CD listening, but I would consider it indispensable
on DVD.

j

Richard Loeb

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Feb 13, 2007, 5:24:23 AM2/13/07
to
"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C1F73463.1E78%josepv...@hotmail.com...

I agree completely - I saw that Ring live at Bayreuth three times and it
remains one of the greatest theatrical experiences I ever witnessed - but
you really have to see it - the aural part only is but a pale reflection
Richard


makropulos

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Feb 13, 2007, 7:11:53 AM2/13/07
to
On Feb 13, 10:24 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Josep Vilanova" <josepvilan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:C1F73463.1E78%josepv...@hotmail.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 13/2/07 06:13, in article
> > 1171347232.988480.229...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com,
> > "david7ga...@aol.com"


Likewise (only once, alas, not three times - I envy you that). I
totally agree about it being a completely overwhelming and
unforgettable theatrical experience, notwithstanding the vocal
imperfections that are all too obvious on the audio-only recording. In
the theatre (and even on the DVD) they seem not to matter anything
like as much.

Edward A. Cowan

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Feb 13, 2007, 8:45:19 AM2/13/07
to
For any who may be interested, there was a review of the Bayreuth/Böhm
_Ring_ in the issue of _High Fidelity_ for October, 1973, pp. 91-95.
("A Redundant Ring?", review by David Hamilton) --E.A.C.


On Feb 12, 10:19 pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
wrote:

Richar...@gmail.com

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Feb 13, 2007, 10:26:42 AM2/13/07
to

>
> Absolutely wonderful playing by the orchestra and better than for
> Beecham in this score, I would suggest.
>
Certainly superior to Beecham's, which I found over-rated when I last
heard it.
Kempe's Tchaik Five (BPO) is another recording in his Scheherazade's
class, IMO.

Richar...@gmail.com

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Feb 13, 2007, 10:29:18 AM2/13/07
to

>
> Well 2 and 3 are living proof that speed alone that doesn't mean much - both
> are fast but Bohms lickety-split, surface reading is totally devoid of the
> dramatic import that infuses the also quick Krauss reading. Richard

Could not agree more.

Curtis Croulet

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Feb 13, 2007, 11:50:07 AM2/13/07
to
There's much useful info in that article, such as the fact that parts of
that Ring must have been taken from the previous season (previous to 1967).
When Wolfgang W. took over Bayreuth, he deleted the brief scene for Gutrune
that follows Siegfried's funeral procession, but it's on the recording.

jrs...@aol.com

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Feb 13, 2007, 12:13:28 PM2/13/07
to
On Feb 12, 1:41 pm, "rubio" <espen.kibsga...@bredbandsservice.no>
wrote:

In that case maybe start with Krauss (it's so cheap!) because the
story has never been told better nor sung better, really. But at some
point, maybe after you've come home from a live performance, you'll be
wondering if you can wallow at home in the overwhelming deliciousness
of Wagner's sound world. And at that moment you might consider getting
a second Ring in better sound...Solti, Janowski, or maybe Barenboim,
for instance.

--Jeff

Richard Loeb

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Feb 13, 2007, 12:13:49 PM2/13/07
to
"Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3%lAh.1545$E71.1225@trnddc04...

Actually it was Wieland Wagner who decided to delete that short scene and
only in that Ring production, not the earlier ones. Richard

>
>


Curtis Croulet

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Feb 13, 2007, 12:48:13 PM2/13/07
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I was working from memory. Should've dug out the article :-(

Walter Traprock

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Feb 13, 2007, 2:26:08 PM2/13/07
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"makropulos" <makro...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > >>> Speaking of the record-buying public, I just saw that the Boulez Ring
> > >>> Cycle is available on CD. Price comparable to the Bohm.

The Boulez Ring is awesome, vocal flaws and all; I'm glad that it's
finally coming out sans chereau, and am a bit miffed at buying the
last, of the fully equipped releases with libretto, first three operas,
then buying the "Got" DVD out of desperation, and then the CD full Ring
set, and still would rather just have had the "Got" with libretto,
without duplicates and/or dvds. Still no "Got" with printed libretto,
but I'll live.

The 20% off Border's coupon was useful for the full Boulez CD Ring.

Many years ago, I remember making an ordinary audio-excerpt cassette out
of the VHS's and listened to that many times, with great sound quality.
At the time, I was surprised to dig out an old Ring excerpt cassette I
had, to find the really poor quality of the sound and excerpting choices
was an actual Philips Boulez cassette.

> > I agree completely - I saw that Ring live at Bayreuth three times and it
> > remains one of the greatest theatrical experiences I ever witnessed - but
> > you really have to see it - the aural part only is but a pale reflection

I find the CDs much better than DVDs if you know what I mean!

> Likewise (only once, alas, not three times - I envy you that). I
> totally agree about it being a completely overwhelming and
> unforgettable theatrical experience, notwithstanding the vocal
> imperfections that are all too obvious on the audio-only recording. In
> the theatre (and even on the DVD) they seem not to matter anything
> like as much.

Boulez rulez, Chereau drulz.

William Sommerwerck

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Feb 13, 2007, 2:33:21 PM2/13/07
to
> Speaking of the record-buying public, I just saw that the Boulez
> Ring is available on CD. Price comparable to the Bohm.

Pardone moi, but I happen to like the Gallic coolness of Boulez's
interpretaion.


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