B-C Update on Gramophone's Site
Andrew Rose
Update, February 20
In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
refuted any accusations of wrongdoing – adding that a friend of his had
compared the Bronfman and Hatto Rachmaninovs and thought the Hatto far
superior. Barrington-Coupe also, the critic reported to Gramophone,
asserted that Hatto had made the Godowsky recording using her own
hand-prepared copies of the scores made when she was 16. He further
identified recording venues used for the recordings as mainly colleges
and churches where he used mobile recording facilities. He stated his
intention to have his own sound engineer prepare his own comparisons.
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2759&newssectionID=1
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
Paul Ilechko
> I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition today:
>
>
> Update, February 20
>
> In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
> refuted any accusations of wrongdoing – adding that a friend of his had
> compared the Bronfman and Hatto Rachmaninovs and thought the Hatto far
> superior.
That friend perhaps being an unwelcome denizen of this n.g. ?
Tony Overington
> Andrew Rose wrote:
> > I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition today:
>
> > Update, February 20
>
> > In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
> > compared the Bronfman and Hatto Rachmaninovs and thought the Hatto far
> > superior.
>
> That friend perhaps being an unwelcome denizen of this n.g. ?
Do you think the friend was judging the recording or the cover art?
Tony Overington
John Briggs
> I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition
> today:
> Update, February 20
>
> In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe
> has refuted any accusations of wrongdoing
They are misusing the English language - he has certainly not refuted the
accusations, he has rejected them.
--
John Briggs
Andrew Rose
Agreed!
Paul Ilechko
Or perhaps disputed them ...
Araf
<and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition today:
>
>
>Update, February 20
>
>In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
>refuted any accusations of wrongdoing – adding that a friend of his had
>compared the Bronfman and Hatto Rachmaninovs and thought the Hatto far
>superior. Barrington-Coupe also, the critic reported to Gramophone,
>asserted that Hatto had made the Godowsky recording using her own
>hand-prepared copies of the scores made when she was 16. He further
>identified recording venues used for the recordings as mainly colleges
>and churches where he used mobile recording facilities. He stated his
>intention to have his own sound engineer prepare his own comparisons.
>
Well, he's certainly got chutzpah! I'm amazed he's still around - if I
were he I'd be well on my way to South America.
Araf.
Paul Goldstein
>
>I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition today:
>
>
>Update, February 20
>
>In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
An illiterate misuse of the word "refuted." It should say "denied." What
followed this sentence does not refute anything.
Andrew Rose
His mastering engineer (who I spoke to this morning) likewise seems to
refuse to believe the Hatto recordings are not genuine.
His comment that a part of his mastering process included "EQing the
recordings to make them sound the same..." raised some questions in my
mind, as did the entire lack of any editing requirement, which would
surely raise some question marks for most engineers.
He didn't seem to think than the analyses thus far presented either by
myself or by CHARM added up to anything particularly conclusive, and was
dismissive of other questions I raised. He was particularly well-versed
in the life story of one René Köhler.
He's apparently been working with B-C for about four years, since B-C
brought him the 1/4" master tapes of the 1970 Bax/Handley/Hatto recordings.
All of which amounts to nothing conclusive - he too could have been
duped by B-C. I do however find it hard to believe any competent or
experienced sound engineer would be less than convinced with the
evidence we've presented.
Perhaps he'll be doing B-C's alternative analysis for him, from the
comfort of his well-equipped digital mastering studio?
John Briggs
Yes - literally a combination of the two! But "refute" isn't a portmanteau
word, it has a precise meaning of its own.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
>
> His mastering engineer (who I spoke to this morning) likewise seems to
> refuse to believe the Hatto recordings are not genuine.
>
> His comment that a part of his mastering process included "EQing the
> recordings to make them sound the same..." raised some questions in my
> mind, as did the entire lack of any editing requirement, which would
> surely raise some question marks for most engineers.
He had presumably been told that they had already been edited - which should
itself have raised questions about "EQing the recordings to make them sound
the same...", of course.
> He didn't seem to think than the analyses thus far presented either by
> myself or by CHARM added up to anything particularly conclusive, and
> was dismissive of other questions I raised. He was particularly
> well-versed in the life story of one René Köhler.
Do tell - that should be a good one!
> He's apparently been working with B-C for about four years, since B-C
> brought him the 1/4" master tapes of the 1970 Bax/Handley/Hatto
> recordings.
Which is worrying, because there will now always be a question mark over
them, and they have to be absolutely genuine, don't they? But how did B-C
come to have them: wasn't it an EMI recording?
--
John Briggs
Andrew Rose
> Andrew Rose wrote:
>> His mastering engineer (who I spoke to this morning) likewise seems to
>> refuse to believe the Hatto recordings are not genuine.
>>
>> His comment that a part of his mastering process included "EQing the
>> recordings to make them sound the same..." raised some questions in my
>> mind, as did the entire lack of any editing requirement, which would
>> surely raise some question marks for most engineers.
>
> He had presumably been told that they had already been edited - which should
> itself have raised questions about "EQing the recordings to make them sound
> the same...", of course.
>
sessions, and he suggested something like pedal noises and shuffling
between movements. ISTR the claim that she did the recordings in whole
takes - but all first time round? Now that would be a first.
If B-C (or A.N.Other) had edited the takes, why get a third party to
edit the gaps between them?
>> He didn't seem to think than the analyses thus far presented either by
>> myself or by CHARM added up to anything particularly conclusive, and
>> was dismissive of other questions I raised. He was particularly
>> well-versed in the life story of one René Köhler.
>
> Do tell - that should be a good one!
Only that he was very well-versed in the "authorised biography" (by W.
B-C) and found it convincing. I mentioned Peter Lemkens's research into
Kohler, which he was also aware of.
Of course all of this could be gleaned from conversations with B-C.
>
>> He's apparently been working with B-C for about four years, since B-C
>> brought him the 1/4" master tapes of the 1970 Bax/Handley/Hatto
>> recordings.
>
> Which is worrying, because there will now always be a question mark over
> them, and they have to be absolutely genuine, don't they? But how did B-C
> come to have them: wasn't it an EMI recording?
He said they were on EMI tapes. Why they're with B-C and not in EMI's
vaults is perhaps unusual, though I guess not impossible. But I do know
from experience that once the EMI library at Hayes gets its hands on
anything they're very reluctant to let it go out of their sights, even
if it's not actually theirs in the first place...
I guess the closer you are to B-C the harder it is to believe all of
this, but it seems that by now even the most hardened Hatto fans have
accepted that there has been some trickery here. I was therefore a
little surprised to find an experienced sound engineer, one who has had
his hands on all the Hatto material, still convinced of their
authenticity several days after first hearing about the story.
If it were me I'd have been on the phone right away trying to find out
more about the story and making sure my own involvement was verifiably
squeaky clean.
None of which, I stress, adds up to any accusation whatsoever on my part
- I have no idea who tampered with the recordings or, if it was the
case, substituted other recordings for any which might have been made by
Joyce Hatto. A disgruntled pressing plant engineer in Prague, perhaps?
It merely raises possible questions, which I trust will find wholly
innocent answers in the fullness of time.
As yet I've found no trace of the other 'recording engineers' mentioned
on the CA sleevenotes...
Thornhill
> Araf wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:54:05 +0100, Andrew Rose
> > <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>
> >> I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition today:
>
> >> Update, February 20
>
> >> In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
Have you asked these people to just produce the original unedited
master tapes? That should be pretty conclusive proof whether or not
they actually made the recordings.
Andrew Rose
>
> Have you asked these people to just produce the original unedited
> master tapes? That should be pretty conclusive proof whether or not
> they actually made the recordings.
>
I would have expected this to be the first evidence offered by B-C -
rather than an "analysis" by his own engineers...
Andrew Rose
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:42:24 +0100, Andrew Rose wrote:
>
>> Thornhill wrote:
>>> Have you asked these people to just produce the original unedited
>>> master tapes? That should be pretty conclusive proof whether or not
>>> they actually made the recordings.
>>>
>>>
>> I would have expected this to be the first evidence offered by B-C -
>> rather than an "analysis" by his own engineers...
>
> a symphony orchestra. Those statements could be supported by e.g. work
> permits, visa etc. for foreign artists to make recordings in the UK.
>
If they were Polish, as claimed, I don't think this is a requirement any
more. It depends on whether the alleged recordings were made before or
after Poland joined the EU.
Peter Lemken
> If they were Polish, as claimed, I don't think this is a requirement any
> more. It depends on whether the alleged recordings were made before or
> after Poland joined the EU.
Poland joined the EU when?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
Araf
<and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>>> He's apparently been working with B-C for about four years, since B-C
>>> brought him the 1/4" master tapes of the 1970 Bax/Handley/Hatto
>>> recordings.
>>
>> Which is worrying, because there will now always be a question mark over
>> them, and they have to be absolutely genuine, don't they? But how did B-C
>> come to have them: wasn't it an EMI recording?
>
>He said they were on EMI tapes. Why they're with B-C and not in EMI's
>vaults is perhaps unusual, though I guess not impossible. But I do know
>from experience that once the EMI library at Hayes gets its hands on
>anything they're very reluctant to let it go out of their sights, even
>if it's not actually theirs in the first place...
It isn't an EMI recording - this is a myth that's been perpetuated for
the last few years because, yet again, no-one has bothered to check
the facts.
The recording was issued on the Revolution label (another of Mr. B-C's
many outlets), number RCF 001, with the Guildford Philharmonic (a
partly amateur,but very good orchestra - who presumably didn't charge
very much). It was recorded at the EMI Abbey Road Studios, which are
available on a hire basis to anyone who can afford to pay for them.
This is not at all the same thing as being "an EMI recording" as
various obituaries claimed.
Araf.
Thornhill
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:42:24 +0100, Andrew Rose wrote:
>
> >> Have you asked these people to just produce the original unedited
> >> master tapes? That should be pretty conclusive proof whether or not
> >> they actually made the recordings.
>
> > I would have expected this to be the first evidence offered by B-C -
> > rather than an "analysis" by his own engineers...
>
> a symphony orchestra. Those statements could be supported by e.g. work
> permits, visa etc. for foreign artists to make recordings in the UK.
>
> Chel van Gennip
> Visit Serg van Gennip's sitehttp://www.serg.vangennip.com
Considering how strict union labor rules are generally, there should
be pretty detailed records from the orchestral recordings listing all
the musicians, the hours they recorded from, and then payment
receipts. Bottom line: if any of this happened, then there's a paper
trail.
Andrew Rose
But it would account for being on EMI tape rather than Ampex or other.
John Briggs
>
> It isn't an EMI recording - this is a myth that's been perpetuated for
> the last few years because, yet again, no-one has bothered to check
> the facts.
>
> The recording was issued on the Revolution label (another of Mr. B-C's
> many outlets), number RCF 001, with the Guildford Philharmonic (a
> partly amateur,but very good orchestra - who presumably didn't charge
> very much). It was recorded at the EMI Abbey Road Studios, which are
> available on a hire basis to anyone who can afford to pay for them.
>
> This is not at all the same thing as being "an EMI recording" as
> various obituaries claimed.
Thanks - I couldn't find it in the BL Sound Archive Online Catalogue (I see
why, now).
Anyway, is this the recording she deserves to be remembered by? It will
presumably be lost in the crash of the B-C empire. Is there a case for
someone pirating it?
--
John Briggs
Araf
<and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>> It isn't an EMI recording - this is a myth that's been perpetuated for
>> the last few years because, yet again, no-one has bothered to check
>> the facts.
>
>But it would account for being on EMI tape rather than Ampex or other.
Indeed, and it would also explain why Mr. B-C had possession of the
tapes - they were never EMI's in the first place.
Incidentally, I've just been playing the recording, which suggests
that in her prime Joyce Hatto was certainly a very considerable
pianist. And as the recording followed a public performance with a
real conductor, Vernon Handley, I think it's reasonable to assume that
this recording at least is the real thing.
Araf.
O
In view of what we've found out, I don't think it's reasonable to
assume that at all.
While there may have been such a concert, there's no reason to think
that the recording on the CD is any more legitimate than any other
"Hatto recording."
-Owen
Araf
>
>> Incidentally, I've just been playing the recording, which suggests
>> that in her prime Joyce Hatto was certainly a very considerable
>> pianist. And as the recording followed a public performance with a
>> real conductor, Vernon Handley, I think it's reasonable to assume that
>> this recording at least is the real thing.
>
>In view of what we've found out, I don't think it's reasonable to
>assume that at all.
>
>While there may have been such a concert, there's no reason to think
>that the recording on the CD is any more legitimate than any other
>"Hatto recording."
Where then, do you think the recording came from? It's an extremely
obscure piece of music, and at the time the recording was issued there
had never been another recording.
And I don't think a reputable conductor like Vernon Handley would put
his name to a piece of fakery.
Are you there, Vernon?
Araf.
Peter Lemken
> spam.f...@buerotiger.de (Peter Lemken) - 20 Feb 2007 18:34:21 GMT
> in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>> Poland joined the EU when?
>>
>> Peter Lemken
>> Berlin
>
70 km.
What's your distance to rhetorical questions? A galaxy?
Paul Ilechko
> spam.f...@buerotiger.de (Peter Lemken) - 20 Feb 2007 18:34:21 GMT
> in rec.music.classical.recordings:
>
>>
>> Peter Lemken
>> Berlin
>
I don't know, but my father once walked from Poland to Celle. Not
willingly, of course.
Julia Liebetrau
> I don't know, but my father once walked from Poland to Celle. Not
> willingly, of course.
Who would want to go to Celle anyway? Well, it is said that the dialect
in Celle comes as close to the perfect german stage pronunciation as
possible, but in my opinion that's not a proper reason.
Julia
--
"I love mankind; it's people I can't stand." - Linus van Pelt
Paul Ilechko
> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
>> I don't know, but my father once walked from Poland to Celle. Not
>> willingly, of course.
>
> Who would want to go to Celle anyway? Well, it is said that the dialect
> in Celle comes as close to the perfect german stage pronunciation as
> possible, but in my opinion that's not a proper reason.
>
>
> Julia
>
There's a place there that used to be called Bergen-Belsen.
REG
"Andrew Rose" <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote in message
news:45db0b8e$0$5107$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
>I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition today:
>
>
> Update, February 20
>
> In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
> superior. Barrington-Coupe also, the critic reported to Gramophone,
> asserted that Hatto had made the Godowsky recording using her own
> hand-prepared copies of the scores made when she was 16. He further
> identified recording venues used for the recordings as mainly colleges and
> churches where he used mobile recording facilities. He stated his
> intention to have his own sound engineer prepare his own comparisons.
>
>
>
>
>
A mobile recording studio? Is that anything like the mobile weapons stations
which were deployed in Iraq by Sadaam before the invasion?
Michael Schaffer
> "Andrew Rose" <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote in message
>
> news:45db0b8e$0$5107$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
>
> >I note the Gramophone news page has received the following addition today:
>
> > Update, February 20
>
> > In a private e-mail to one of our critics, William Barrington-Coupe has
> > compared the Bronfman and Hatto Rachmaninovs and thought the Hatto far
> > superior. Barrington-Coupe also, the critic reported to Gramophone,
> > asserted that Hatto had made the Godowsky recording using her own
> > hand-prepared copies of the scores made when she was 16. He further
> > identified recording venues used for the recordings as mainly colleges and
> > churches where he used mobile recording facilities. He stated his
> > intention to have his own sound engineer prepare his own comparisons.
>
>
> A mobile recording studio? Is that anything like the mobile weapons stations
> which were deployed in Iraq by Sadaam before the invasion?
Yes. The technical term is WMC - Weapons for Mass Copying.
Michael Schaffer
And when the finished CDs came back, nobody, including "Concert
Artists" who should know them better than anyone else, noticed they
were actually different recordings?
Andrew Rose
O
<and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
George Bush is looking for international support for an invasion of
Croyden.
-Owen
O
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:17:07 -0500, O <ow...@idsx.netx> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Incidentally, I've just been playing the recording, which suggests
> >> that in her prime Joyce Hatto was certainly a very considerable
> >> pianist. And as the recording followed a public performance with a
> >> real conductor, Vernon Handley, I think it's reasonable to assume that
> >> this recording at least is the real thing.
> >
> >In view of what we've found out, I don't think it's reasonable to
> >assume that at all.
> >
> >While there may have been such a concert, there's no reason to think
> >that the recording on the CD is any more legitimate than any other
> >"Hatto recording."
>
>
> Where then, do you think the recording came from? It's an extremely
> obscure piece of music, and at the time the recording was issued there
> had never been another recording.
I have no idea where the recording came from -- but I do know that a
lot of recordings purported to come from Joyce Hatto did not come from
that source.
>
> And I don't think a reputable conductor like Vernon Handley would put
> his name to a piece of fakery.
>
> Are you there, Vernon?
No one's accusing Mr. Handley of anything. I don't think Bernard
Haitink knew he was conducting JH's Brahms 2nd!
If Mr. Handley says he conducted on that disc, then that's good enough
for me. Obviously, there was such a program performed at the time, but
whether any JH discs are legitimate is still a matter of question.
-Owen
O
Reimer <wrdslremovethis濃pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article <i0nmt2tacm8l0csjj...@4ax.com>, Araf says...
> I think Handley was interviewed about it for the Hatto program aired in
> NZ. So yes, it appears to be real. And I think some people may be
> over-reacting to some jocular posts about whether Hatto really existed
> at all. I don't think there's much question that there was a real
> person named Joyce Hatto who once played piano; the question is, how
> much of her story as it was presented over the last few years is real?
It's not a conspiracy theory -- it's a real conspiracy!
The question is "what is the extent?"
-Owen
Brendan R. Wehrung
Maybe that's why Blair is calling the troops home from Iraq?
Brendan