German Critics attack Simon Rattle
pgaron
bzuk...@phillynews.com
Berlin next season. If the performances come off as well as his 7th and
9th have in Philly over the past few years, I think people will be
happy with what they hear. His Brahms has been a bit less impressive.
Barry
Peter Lemken
Who says so?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
FOAD
Matthew B. Tepper
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:4dluv7F...@individual.net:
>> Manuel Brug, a leading German critic,
>
> Who says so?
Why, he says so himself. And who should know better?
jrs...@aol.com
Peter Lemken wrote:
> > Manuel Brug, a leading German critic,
>
> Who says so?
>
Herr Brug, of course.
As usual the article is highly selective and obscure to useless in
meaning.
I do think the orchestra was taking a chance by nabbing a conductor
identified mostly with non-German repertoire, but it's not like Mahler,
Haydn, and Beethoven--in all of which Rattle had shown some signs of
interesting ideas--are inconsequential.
I also think that any qualities they liked in Rattle in, say Ades or
Sibelius or Debussy, before 1999 are going to translate into similar
qualities in Bruckner or Brahms or Strauss, for better or worse. Rattle
was a known quantity and I can't see how he has been a disappointment.
If the musicians at times seem unemotional...well, that is, at times,
the way Rattle's orchestras play. If it seems that he has mastered the
"romantic sounds" without the drama or intensity...that too has always
been a criticism of Rattle.
If the recent Schubert 9 recording is any indication, the playing is
great, the search for fresh ways of playing old music is alive, and
well, that's all very nice but it's probably not going to be my
favorite recording of the piece.
--Jeff
Jenn
jrs...@aol.com wrote:
Has anyone seen the DVD of Rattle/BPO in a concert version of "Wonderful
Town"? The playing and singing are great, but one aspect had me
slack-jawed in amazement and picturing HvK turning over in his grave:
the sight of the Berlin Phil dancing and mugging to "Conga!" Priceless.
rkhalona
conclusions. The Emperor had no clothes from the beginning.
RK
bzuk...@phillynews.com
Have you heard him conduct any live Bruckner? I've said on here before
that he was generally less impressive in his last few visits to Philly
than in his first few times around. But the exception has been his
Bruckner. I mentioned above how good his 7th and 9th were. I'd say they
were unquestionably the standout performances of his recent visits,
which is why I find it a bit ironic that some Germans are complaining
that he doesn't conduct enough Bruckner (which looks like it will be
recitified next season).
Barry
rkhalona
I have never seen Rattle conduct Bruckner, but I have listened to some
of his recordings (incl. the 9th with Philadelphia) and I have heard
nothing revelatory.
The German critics' complaint that he doesn't conduct enough Germanic
music appears to be secondary. I think the novelty has worn off and
there doesn't appear to be enough weight and substance behind the man.
I have no doubt he is a very nice man, but I find it amusing that
"leading" players defend him after seeing their salaries go up under
him and after seeing the house full nearly every night. This was all
very predictable.
RK
Thornhill
I though the highlight of the Bruckner performances in Philly was the
Orchestra.
The Brahms 2 he did two years ago was unbelievably boring, but the
recent Brahms 4 was quite successful. In the same program as the Brahms
2 he did the Act 1 prelude from "Tristan," which I thought was pretty
good.
I'm not very impressed with the modern music/unknown he champions, nor
his conducting of it. Again on the Brahms 2 program was a new Hans
Werner Henze symphony, which was pretty dry. Then this year, the
Gubaidulina piece was just oppressive. I understand what her intention
is, and can appreciate it, but I don't want to listen to it, nor do you
really have to listen to understand it.
I know some people like his micromanaged Schubert 9, but I couldn't
stand it when he conducted it two years ago in Philly.
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
'Proms' when he did 'The Rite of Spring' (which he had to re-start
because someone's mobile phone rang during the opening bassoon solo). I
was glad when the camera cut away from Rattle because his preposterous
countenance, with its grotesque array of ludicrous facial expressions
that bore no relation to the music nor had any effect on the
performance, were thoroughly vomit-inducing. The previous contributor
is lucky indeed not to have seen Rattle conduct.
bzuk...@phillynews.com
> ...I was glad when the camera cut away from Rattle because his preposterous
> countenance, with its grotesque array of ludicrous facial expressions
> that bore no relation to the music nor had any effect on the
> performance, were thoroughly vomit-inducing.
>
his facial expressions quite entertaining from a purely extramusical
standpoint. Actually, that was for the Schubert 9th that Thornhill
hated so much. I wasn't crazy about it either, although I wouldn't use
the word hate to describe my reaction. Boring was more like it.
Barry
Paul Ilechko
> He won an award, so I see. I still don't know what a "leading critic"
> is though.
A critic who tells all the other critics what to think. There has to be
one willing to do this, or none of them would know what to write.
sechumlib
Well, he did an absolutely great job on the Mahler 10th with the
Cleveland Orchestra several decades ago.
Of course, I couldn't see his face since I was sitting in the audience!
Gerard
But why should they think? It's enough when they write what the leading critic
thinks.
So a leading critic is a critic who thinks (that other critics will write what
he writes).
alain...@gmail.com
> See:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1782437,00.html
I presume Magdalena Kozena has not made the same criticism of Sir
Simon.
ad
Michael Schaffer
rkhalona wrote:
> bzuk...@phillynews.com wrote:
> > rkhalona wrote:
> > > The surprise here is that it took them four years to reach these
> > > conclusions. The Emperor had no clothes from the beginning.
> > >
> > > RK
> >
> > Have you heard him conduct any live Bruckner? I've said on here before
> > that he was generally less impressive in his last few visits to Philly
> > than in his first few times around. But the exception has been his
> > Bruckner. I mentioned above how good his 7th and 9th were. I'd say they
> > were unquestionably the standout performances of his recent visits,
> > which is why I find it a bit ironic that some Germans are complaining
> > that he doesn't conduct enough Bruckner (which looks like it will be
> > recitified next season).
But I think that's a good thing in general. Of course the musicians
will like it when he looks out for them and helps them get more money.
Everybody would. The most drastic salary increases in the orchestra's
history happened in the 60s under Karajan.
Michael Schaffer
I am not at all a big Rattle fan either, but I really liked the recent
Debussy disc they made. I will be in Berlin soon, and if I can make it
I will swing by and hear the concert in which he conducts Brahms 4.
Curtis Croulet
Italian opera in my CD collection -- there's only so much time in the world
to listen. I've been concentrating on Debussy's La mer recently, and I'll
probably put some time in with Pelleas et Melisande soon.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
bzuk...@phillynews.com
> > Well, he did an absolutely great job on the Mahler 10th with the
> Cleveland Orchestra several decades ago.
>
I got a mixed reaction a while back when I said of Muti that his
Philadelphia years were not his best and that he was at an intermediate
point in his career when the visceral excitement of some of his
Philharmonia work was dying down and he hadn't yet developed into a
mature interpreter. I know some people think he still hasn't done that,
but what little I've heard of him the past few years has given me
reason to believe he may be a bit more interesting today than he was in
the 80s and 90s.
I'm now wondering if Rattle is going through the same process. I know
I'm not alone in being absolutely floored by how great some of his
concerts back in 90s were. I and several other music-lovers I know cite
particular performances by him as the best live performances we've ever
seen. But those were all a relatively long time ago and he seems to be
less and less consistant in recent years. Of course, it's too early to
know whether he'll have a better phase later in his career to fill out
the pattern.
Barry
alanwa...@aol.com
I was going to observe the same but I'm sort of glad you observed it
first:):)
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
rkhalona
Curtis Croulet wrote:
> Oh, yes, I'm an opera fan, particularly Wagner. But I don't have a lot of
> Italian opera in my CD collection -- there's only so much time in the world
> to listen. I've been concentrating on Debussy's La mer recently, and I'll
> probably put some time in with Pelleas et Melisande soon.
Yes, but do you like cigars? :-)
RK
Ian Pace
"Peter Lemken" <spam.f...@buerotiger.de> wrote in message
news:4dluv7F...@individual.net...
>> Manuel Brug, a leading German critic,
>
> Who says so?
>
description, I think - and that is not a compliment) a year or two ago?
Ian
Paul Ilechko
> Oh, yes, I'm an opera fan, particularly Wagner. But I don't have a lot of
> Italian opera in my CD collection -- there's only so much time in the world
> to listen. I've been concentrating on Debussy's La mer recently, and I'll
> probably put some time in with Pelleas et Melisande soon.
If I was only allowed two operas in my collection, I would have Pelleas
as one of them, the other being Bluebeard's Castle.
david...@aol.com
"If I was only allowed two operas in my collection, I would have
Pelleas as one of them, the other being Bluebeard's Castle. "
If I were only allowed two, I'd have to sell my soul to the devil for
an increase in the number. (Now if I were limited to only two Wagner
operas, it wouldn't be a problem, since the only one I can't live
without at this point is Meistersinger.)
-david gable
Matthew Silverstein
> Mr. Ilechko uttered the following heresy:
You're ready to sell your soul to the devil and you're accusing him of
heresy?
Matty
Ian Pace
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1148594071.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Rigoletto, Die Walkure and Wozzeck, though.
Ian
david...@aol.com
"You're ready to sell your soul to the devil and you're accusing him of
heresy?"
Just goes to show you that heresy with regard to le bon Dieu bothers me
a good deal less than heresy in the realm of my favorite art form.
-david gable
Ian Pace
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1148594464.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
along to claim his dues :)
Ian
Matthew Silverstein
> Just goes to show you that heresy with regard to le bon Dieu bothers me
> a good deal less than heresy in the realm of my favorite art form.
More heresy! :-)
Matty
Matthew Silverstein
> I think Pelleas and Don Giovanni would be my two. Hard to pass up on
> Rigoletto, Die Walkure and Wozzeck, though.
I'm only beginning to explore the world of opera--at least compared to so
many here--but as of now I would have to choose Otello and the Marriage of
Figaro.
Matty
jrs...@aol.com
Interesting. Those are the two we studied in opera class in college.
What I learned, I do not know: the class did not make me particularly
interested in opera. And yet, strangely, those two may be my essential
choices, after all. I say that as a convinced Wagnerian, too.
--Jeff
Peter Lemken
> Luke Harding, fwiw, of Der Spiegrauniad
Huh?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
FOAD
Michael Schaffer
I think Rattle's recent La Mer is actually one of the best things I
have heard from him.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:MPG.1ee046fea...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net:
>> In article <4dmltaF...@individual.net>,
> Two is about the right number to have, I think. For me, Four Saints in
> Three Acts would be first, and hmmmm, is there anything else worth
> keeping? Oh, yeah, Bomarzo would be good to have around - it's better
> than it sounds (and really needs a decent quality new recording).
Someday I've got to find my copy and make CDRs out of it....
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Curtis Croulet
lately, I was particularly interested in getting Piero Coppola's recording
from 1932 (in a Debussy set from Andante). If you remember, a couple of
weeks ago I said I found La mer to be an "enigma," so decided it was time to
study it. Simon Trezise's book about La mer has been a big help in working
my way through this music (plus the Dover score, of course), and he made
some particularly interesting observations about Coppola's recording.
Michael Schaffer
That looks like a very interesting book.
Pamisolo
(in article <1148580236.3...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>):
> I
> was glad when the camera cut away from Rattle because his preposterous
> countenance, with its grotesque array of ludicrous facial expressions
> that bore no relation to the music nor had any effect on the
> performance, were thoroughly vomit-inducing.
I don't know about you, but I use my hears to enjoy a *music* performance,
not my eyes. Must be doing something wrong, obviously...
Paolo
--
"I have simple tastes. I am always satisfied with the best"
--Oscar Wilde
tomdeacon
One is inevitably reminded that the German culture is an insular one.
The critic in question praises Rattle's Debussy, but then throws up
Bruckner.
Excuse me!
Bruckner is an minor composer of endless symphonic dumplings.
Debussy is one of the greatest who ever lived.
That Rattle conducts miraculous Debussy should be a reason to hold onto
him. That he chooses not to overdo the Bruckner thing should be
regarded as a big plus.
The German musical establishment is just that: an establishment. A bit
like the Berlin Wall. And Mr. Rattle would seem to be the perfect
candidate to bring that wall down once and for all.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> On Thu, 25 May 2006 19:03:56 +0100, kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
> wrote (in article
> <1148580236.3...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>):
>
>> I was glad when the camera cut away from Rattle because his
>> preposterous countenance, with its grotesque array of ludicrous facial
>> expressions that bore no relation to the music nor had any effect on
>> the performance, were thoroughly vomit-inducing.
>
> I don't know about you, but I use my hears to enjoy a *music*
> performance, not my eyes. Must be doing something wrong, obviously...
Unfortunately the industry honchos have decreed that the visual element is
now more important than the audio one, so we can expect to be left behind.
kerrison1...@yahoo.co.uk
tight shut, do you? That must look very silly to anyone else in the
room ... I wonder what your *hears* look like too ...
Steven de Mena
"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1148832030....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> pgaron wrote:
>> See:
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1782437,00.html
>
> One is inevitably reminded that the German culture is an insular one.
> The critic in question praises Rattle's Debussy, but then throws up
> Bruckner.
>
> Excuse me!
>
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
SD
tomdeacon
Steven de Mena wrote:
> > Excuse me!
> >
> > Bruckner is a minor composer of endless symphonic dumplings.
>
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Please, Steve.
You do serious injury to my reputation by laughing out loud.
I repeat: I have NO sense of humour.
TD
Michael Schaffer
You have no sense of anything. I am sorry your uncle fucked you in the
ass when you were a kid, but what does all that have to do with
classical music? Why do you have to pollute this ng with your nonsense?
We know you are in deep emotional pain, but it is neither the fault of
anyone here nor of any of the musicians and composers you project your
hatred on. Really. It is solely your mother's fault since she ignored
what he did to you. But then she screwed him herself. There is a lot of
good therapy available. It may look hopeless to you, but you could at
least *try* it.
Bob Harper
statement about Bruckner.
Bob Harper
david...@aol.com
"The German musical establishment is just that: an establishment. A
bit like the Berlin Wall. And Mr. Rattle would seem to be the perfect
candidate to bring that wall down once and for all. "
That's just the thing to do. Bring somebody in to destroy old cultures
and traditions, which are always bad things. (I'm not commenting on
Mr. Rattle but on Mr. Deacon's statement.)
-david gable
Terry Simmons
"rkhalona" <rkha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The surprise here is that it took them four years to reach these
> conclusions. The Emperor had no clothes from the beginning.
>
> RK
That may be so, but Rattle is the real thing -- a conductor.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Michael Schaffer
I wonder what TD knows about the "German musical establishment" in
general and in Berlin in particular anyway. The simple fact that Rattle
was chosen *because* he was was expected to come up with some fresh
ideas should speak for itself. There are tons of people out there who
could have been hired would just carry on as always, even though they
would have done so on a high level, be it a Muti, a Haitink, a Maazel
or whoever else could come to mind.
Anyway, I am going to be in Berlin in a few days and then I will have
the opportunity to check out Rattle live with Stravinsky, Nielsen, and
Brahms.
Paolo Cordone
(in article <1148844784....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):
> Oh, so when a concert is shown on the TV you sit there with your eyes
> tight shut, do you? That must look very silly to anyone else in the
> room ... I wonder what your *hears* look like too ...
I don't listen to concerts on TV. I have radio and thousands of CDs to
satisfy my needs.
Paolo
her...@yahoo.com
...
>
> I don't listen to concerts on TV. I have radio and thousands of CDs to
> satisfy my needs.
>
I'd suggest going to the concert hall occassionally.
Herman (not a Rattle fan by any means)
Paolo Cordone
(in article <1149253216.3...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):
> I'd suggest going to the concert hall occassionally.
I do that every Friday. Even there, I feel no urge to stare at musicians'
expressions. What count is the music.
Paolo