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Barenboim replacement

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torcik wedlowski

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Jul 7, 2004, 2:03:48 PM7/7/04
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You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
successor. Who do choose and why?

Ssg217

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Jul 7, 2004, 3:10:47 PM7/7/04
to
>
>You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
>successor.

Have I?

regards,
SG

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 3:25:28 PM7/7/04
to
>You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
>successor. Who do choose and why?
>

A nice fantasy. First and foremost, I think someone must be selected who fits
the criteria that the board was insisting that Barenboim carry out. They must
be willing to fundraise, become a citizen of the city in which they work, all
those extracurriculars that "European" conductors don't want to do. They must,
therefore, be American or at least have careers that are based entirely in
American without encumbrances that keep them in Europe for large parts of the
season. That's unfortunate because it leaves out some very talented young
gentleman but that's the way it has to be these days.

If one then next looks to musical talent there would seem to be only a very
short list (if that) of American conductors who would be qualifed. Among them
would be Antonio Pappano, David Robertson, and Robert Spano. I don't include
James Conlon -- partially because I don't find his music-making compelling --
because he is about to take over Ravinia and that won't fly with downtown; I
consider Slatkin a hack; and the other American conductors are too old. Alan
Gilbert may be too young and inexperienced.

My choice of those would be Robertson.

Terry Ellsworth

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jul 7, 2004, 3:51:55 PM7/7/04
to
torcik wedlowski <delasa...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in
news:3jeoe0ds0ak274gfu...@4ax.com:

> You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
> successor. Who do choose and why?

Kent Nagano, mostly for his abilities, but also as a quid pro quo so I can
get him to premiere my Symphony #1 without my having to get program notes
translated into French.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!

Dan Koren

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:27:11 PM7/7/04
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"torcik wedlowski" <delasa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3jeoe0ds0ak274gfu...@4ax.com...

>
> You have just been appointed by the CSO
> board to choose Barenboim"s successor.
> Who do choose and why?


Gennady Rozhdestvensky.

Because:

a) he knows what he is doing.

b) he does not pretend to be
a moralist or philosopher.

c) he has a vast repertoire.

d) he has imagination, talent,
flair and personality.

e) he is the greatest conductor
alive -- bar none -- and he
is not so old that one would
expect him to crap out any
day.


Unfortunately, the CSO's board
of directors will never be so
smart as to understand all of
the above. They will probably
replace Barneboim with another
flashy fashion model.

dk


Dan Koren

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:33:09 PM7/7/04
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"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040707152528...@mb-m27.aol.com...

>
> A nice fantasy. First and foremost, I think someone must be
> selected who fits the criteria that the board was insisting


Maybe one should start by sacking the board.


> that Barenboim carry out. They must be willing to fundraise,
> become a citizen of the city in which they work, all those
> extracurriculars that "European" conductors don't want to do.


And that have nothing, zero, zilch, nada with a conductor's
talent or ability to make music.


> They must, therefore, be American or at least have careers
> that are based entirely in American without encumbrances
> that keep them in Europe for large parts of the season.


Good luck.

And I suppose they must also be pater familias, have a wife
and raise kids, go to church on Friday, Saturday and/or
Sunday (as the case may be), have no arrests or traffic
tickets on their record, and be of generally wholesome
moral fiber. Ollie North is probably the only person
who qualifies.


> That's unfortunate because it leaves out some very talented
> young gentleman but that's the way it has to be these days.
>
> If one then next looks to musical talent there would seem to
> be only a very short list (if that) of American conductors
> who would be qualifed. Among them would be Antonio Pappano,
> David Robertson, and Robert Spano. I don't include James
> Conlon -- partially because I don't find his music-making
> compelling -- because he is about to take over Ravinia and
> that won't fly with downtown; I consider Slatkin a hack;
> and the other American conductors are too old. Alan
> Gilbert may be too young and inexperienced.
>
> My choice of those would be Robertson.


There are no American conductors who qualify.

dk


Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:39:32 PM7/7/04
to
From Mr. Koren:

>> A nice fantasy. First and foremost, I think someone must be
>> selected who fits the criteria that the board was insisting
>
>
>Maybe one should start by sacking the board.

I don't think so. What Mr. Barenboim was asked to do -- and agreed to -- was
reasonable. He reneged on that promise. Why is that the board's fault?

>And that have nothing, zero, zilch, nada with a conductor's
>talent or ability to make music.
>

No, but a music director is not simply a "conductor." He is a music director
and those are the duties of a music director. It is also the duty of a music
director to program a wide variety of music -- including American music --
which Mr. Barenboim was not willing to do.

>And I suppose they must also be pater familias, have a wife
>and raise kids, go to church on Friday, Saturday and/or
>Sunday (as the case may be), have no arrests or traffic
>tickets on their record, and be of generally wholesome
>moral fiber

Whoever said that? Boy, you have a real chip on your shoulder. Sad, very sad.

>There are no American conductors who qualify.

I disagree. Why are you so narrow-minded and hateful?

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:40:27 PM7/7/04
to
>Kent Nagano, mostly for his abilities, but also as a quid pro quo so I can
>get him to premiere my Symphony #1 without my having to get program notes
>translated into French.
>

He did a nice Bruckner 3 in Chicago this past season but I think his track
record with the core repertoire is fairly limited and probably not suited to a
music directorship of a major American orchestra.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:41:45 PM7/7/04
to
From Mr. Koren:
>Gennady Rozhdestvensky.
>
>Because:

>e) he is the greatest conductor
> alive -- bar none -- and he
> is not so old that one would
> expect him to crap out any
> day.
>

I've never met a thinking, breathing, human being who ever thought such
nonsense.

Terry Ellsworth

Dan Koren

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:54:19 PM7/7/04
to
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040707173932...@mb-m07.aol.com...

> From Mr. Koren:
> >> A nice fantasy. First and foremost, I think someone must be
> >> selected who fits the criteria that the board was insisting
> >
> >
> > Maybe one should start by sacking the board.
>
> I don't think so.


Let me see if I can follow your logic.

It is good to bring in new blood and a
fresh mind as a conductor. It is bad to
bring in new blood and fresh minds as
directors. It all makes perfect sense,
doesn't it? (I mean, in Alice's world).


> What Mr. Barenboim was asked to do -- and agreed to -- was
> reasonable. He reneged on that promise.


He obviously did not think it was
reasonable since he didn't follow
through on whatever obligations he
had under the contract. Mind you, I
don't have any idea what those were,
so I'm just reading between lies.


> Why is that the board's fault?


Because it has unrealistic expectations
and has made unreasonable requests.


> > And that have nothing, zero, zilch, nada with a conductor's
> > talent or ability to make music.
> >
>
> No, but a music director is not simply a "conductor." He is a music
director
> and those are the duties of a music director. It is also the duty of a
music
> director to program a wide variety of music -- including American music --
> which Mr. Barenboim was not willing to do.


Yadda, yadda....


> > And I suppose they must also be pater familias, have a wife
> > and raise kids, go to church on Friday, Saturday and/or
> > Sunday (as the case may be), have no arrests or traffic
> > tickets on their record, and be of generally wholesome
> > moral fiber
>
> Whoever said that? Boy, you have a real chip on your shoulder.
> Sad, very sad.


I have no chips on my shoulders. You must also realize that I
have no stake or interest whatsoever in the CSO, and I could
not care less whether it is a good, average or bad orchestra.


> > There are no American conductors who qualify.
>
> I disagree. Why are you so narrow-minded and hateful?


Am I "narrow-minded" and "hateful" because I disagree
with you?

dk

PS. If Mother Teresa could conduct, the CSO board would
have probably found some fault with her too.


Dan Koren

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:55:28 PM7/7/04
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"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040707174027...@mb-m07.aol.com...

>
> He did a nice Bruckner 3 in Chicago this past
> season but I think his track record with the
> core repertoire is fairly limited and probably
> not suited to a music directorship of a major
> American orchestra.
>

What the fuck is the "core repertoire" ?!?

The music *you* happen to like ?!?

dk


Paul Goldstein

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Jul 7, 2004, 5:38:17 PM7/7/04
to
In article <40ec6aab$1...@news.meer.net>, Dan Koren says...

>Unfortunately, the CSO's board
>of directors will never be so
>smart as to understand all of
>the above. They will probably
>replace Barneboim with another
>flashy fashion model.

I never thought of Barenboim as a "fashion model."

Paul Goldstein

Scott Kurtz

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Jul 7, 2004, 6:22:16 PM7/7/04
to
I'd suggest going with youth and selecting Alan Gilbert. I saw him recently
conducting Mahler, Berg, Copland, and Ives, and he was truly outstanding,
especially in the Berg. My second choice would be Marin Alsop. She is
particularly proficient in American repertory, and one would hope that
American music will play a big part in American symphony orchestra programs
in the years to come.

Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040707152528...@mb-m27.aol.com...

Scott Kurtz

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Jul 7, 2004, 6:26:12 PM7/7/04
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Is this symphony to be a tribute to the ducks of the world?
Matthew B. Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns951F83963E7...@207.217.125.204...

Ssg217

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Jul 7, 2004, 6:54:25 PM7/7/04
to

Mr. Goldstein:

>I never thought of Barenboim as a "fashion model."

Well, he dresses nicely, he is good-looking after a fashion. . .

regards,
SG
P. S. Herbie von Karajan was better, though. Was he the one who inaugurated in
the conductorial field those famous pullovers (turtlenecks? Have no idea how
you call them in English).


Dan Koren

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Jul 7, 2004, 6:54:50 PM7/7/04
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"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040707174145...@mb-m07.aol.com...


Boy, what an idiot!

Would you (or anyone in his/her right
mind) appoint Kurt Sanderling? Boards
must keep in mind certain practical
considerations when making decisions.

dk


Alain Dagher

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Jul 7, 2004, 6:57:47 PM7/7/04
to
Dan Koren wrote:

>
> PS. If Mother Teresa could conduct, the CSO board would
> have probably found some fault with her too.
>

Is Hitchens on the board?

Alain Dagher

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Jul 7, 2004, 6:59:01 PM7/7/04
to
Terrymelin wrote:

>>You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
>>successor. Who do choose and why?
>>
>
>
> A nice fantasy. First and foremost, I think someone must be selected who fits
> the criteria that the board was insisting that Barenboim carry out. They must
> be willing to fundraise, become a citizen of the city in which they work, all
> those extracurriculars that "European" conductors don't want to do. They must,
> therefore, be American or at least have careers that are based entirely in
> American without encumbrances that keep them in Europe for large parts of the
> season.

Aren't American conductors as likely as non-Americans to conduct in Europe?

ad


Alain Dagher

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Jul 7, 2004, 6:59:53 PM7/7/04
to
Ssg217 wrote:

>>You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
>>successor.
>
>
> Have I?
>

It's unpaid but I think they will have celery sticks and coffee at all
the meetings.

ad

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:00:30 PM7/7/04
to

Did they forget to increase your dosage today?

Terry Ellsworth

Alain Dagher

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:00:49 PM7/7/04
to
Terrymelin wrote:


>
> I don't think so. What Mr. Barenboim was asked to do -- and agreed to -- was
> reasonable. He reneged on that promise.

I thought he just decided he didn't want to do it anymore and so chose
not to renew his contract.

ad

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:01:17 PM7/7/04
to
>What the fuck is the "core repertoire" ?!?
>
>The music *you* happen to like ?!?
>
>
>
>dk

Are you just nuts, or what?

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:03:26 PM7/7/04
to
>Aren't American conductors as likely as non-Americans to conduct in Europe?
>
>ad

Conducting in Europe and spending most of the year there and making your home
there is two entirely different things.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:02:43 PM7/7/04
to
>I'd suggest going with youth and selecting Alan Gilbert. I saw him recently
>conducting Mahler, Berg, Copland, and Ives, and he was truly outstanding,
>especially in the Berg. My second choice would be Marin Alsop. She is
>particularly proficient in American repertory, and one would hope that
>American music will play a big part in American symphony orchestra programs
>in the years to come.
>

I think Gilbert may still be too inexperienced. I last heard Alsop conduct
about 3 or 4 years ago. I wasn't impressed. She is certainly not ready for the
Chicago Symphony.

Terry Ellsworth

Ssg217

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:07:25 PM7/7/04
to

Monsieur Dagher:

No Beaujolais? (hint, hint. . .)

regards,
SG

Ssg217

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:09:08 PM7/7/04
to

DK:

>> PS. If Mother Teresa could conduct, the CSO board would
>> have probably found some fault with her too.

AD:

>Is Hitchens on the board?

LOL (literally). You should read CH's brilliant article about a certain
mockumentary. . .

yours,
SG

Terrymelin

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:39:55 PM7/7/04
to
>I thought he just decided he didn't want to do it anymore and so chose
>not to renew his contract.
>
>ad

He never did "do it."

Terry Ellsworth

Alain Dagher

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:52:07 PM7/7/04
to
Terrymelin wrote:
>>I thought he just decided he didn't want to do it anymore and so chose
>>not to renew his contract.
>>
>>ad
>
>
> He never did "do it."
>

That is not quite what Henry Fogel said:

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=111&thl=927746880,928005074,927999730,927220787,927170316,927158239,926916114,926800094,926790130,927024822,926924205,927881191&seekm=53273e4a.0406021708.45bce54%40posting.google.com#link117


> As you might guess, I need to be fairly careful here because it is a situation
> in which I know all of the parties, and wish to denigrate none of them. But I
> think I can supply some facts that you and others might find helpful.
> "Fundraising" is too generalized a word. Music Directors, particularly in major
> orchestras, are not expected to specifically fundraise -- that is, they are not
> expected to ask for the gift. But they are expected to participate in some
> events that recognize donors, whether larger receptions held by the institution
> or, in some cases, dinners or gatherings held in homes or smaller venues. This
> is known to be a part of the job now in virtually any American orchestra
> and Mr. Barenboim not only knew it from the beginning, but has done it,
> sometimes more happily than at others. I think in part what he is saying now is
> that he doesn't wish to keep doing it -- whereas the institution might wish him
> to do more of it. These are not black and white (i.e., he does none or he does
> all) situations -- but a question of degree.
>
> Beyond fundraising, there is the question of interacting with the board and
> management -- of accepting the role of being one of the administrative leaders
> of a complicated institution. It is easy for those outside the business to
> separate the artistic side from the money side -- but in truth there is
> virtually no separation. Different programs have different sales potential, and
> have different expenses -- perhaps requiring extra rehearsal, extra players,
> etc. Where does the orchestra tour -- what are the tour priorities, high fees
> or prestigious cities (they are often not the same)? These and many other
> issues combine artistic and economic factors and music directors must,
> increasingly in this economy, be willing to devote time to working with
> management and board committees to work their way through the fiscal realities.
> I believe, again, that Mr. Barenboim (who has always done this, but not always
> happily) is saying he doesn't have patience for it any longer.

Alain Dagher

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Jul 7, 2004, 7:54:26 PM7/7/04
to
Ssg217 wrote:

I read it. "Pot - kettle" if you ask me.

ad

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jul 7, 2004, 8:30:15 PM7/7/04
to
"Scott Kurtz" <kur...@worldnet.att.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:8M_Gc.210990$Gx4.9685@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Is this symphony to be a tribute to the ducks of the world?

Nope; it is completely abstract in every way: No relation to anything at all
that is literary, no program, nothing, just a Symphony in A Minor.

I had been working on an opera, but my librettist was unable to deliver, as
his health had been in a bad decline for the last few years. Sadly, he died
last month.

JRsnfld

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Jul 7, 2004, 8:34:13 PM7/7/04
to
<< You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
successor. Who do choose and why? >>

None of the ideas below suggest I'm happy to see Barenboim go, but I see this
is as a good opportunity to right some old wrongs and create some transcendence
for an orchestra that practically generates excitement just by tuning an A440.

I would ask Gielen and/or Skrowaczewski and/or Rozhdestvensky and/or Haitink
(assuming they are healthy and willing) to provide three years of really
interesting leadership. More importantly, in the meantime, the board should
work like a dog to find someone really young to take over when this
distinguished Ancien Regime has been given its glorious due. I mean someone in
their 20s, like Mengelberg when he took over Amsterdam.

I would give alot of young no-name conductors guest spots and hire a young,
fresh Principal Guest or "Co Music director" as the Concertgebouw did when they
first took on Bernard Haitink (and van Beinum before him). This gives
simultaneous stability and forward planning for the orchestra.

This plan would give the really good crop of music directors, tied up
elsewhere, like Robert Spano or David Robertson or Kent Nagano or Osmo Vanska
or (Fabio Luisi? Danielle Gatti?), a chance to do their thing in their new
assignments and be free for Chicago's position, should one of them be willing
to make the jump. But one can't count on that kind of transfer, nor is it
necessarily the best way to solve the problem.

Despite my patch-it-together solution, this isn't a Maazel/NYPO-like situation.
The three I've mentioned are at another musical plane (if not better
"technicians"). And the NYPO hasn't done its homework on the truly emerging
talent; thus they've extended Maazel's era unnecessarily. Chicago should hire
the team of great elder musicians who can be marketed as a peerless braintrust,
but give some prominence to grooming successors.

Alternatives like Riccardo Chailly, David Zinman, Andrew Litton, Yoel Levi, or
other midcareer/established conductors with high professional standards would
be fine, but the real problem is finding someone who can be marketed as
exceptional and none of these have that quality. Boulez has it, but enough with
him, already (at least in Chicago). Chicago needs as part of its next,
temporary team of co-conductors, to offer someone "Giulini-esque"--an
emotional, intellectual presence above and beyond the ordinary. That's why I
would favor members of an intriguing, overlooked corps of older conductors.
That's for now, however, and only because I assume there isn't a very young
talent in the selection pool. I would certainly market this braintrust as an
exciting, short period of tried-and-true musicians' musicians--eminence without
glitz.

The reason for a lack of good young candidates is the current "fly-in" for a
rehearsal and concert system. It isn't working. Nor do "Assistant" conductors
get enough visibility, even though many turn out to be superb later, like
Spano, Levi, Litton, Morgan, and others groomed this way. You need to build
public constituency for the young successor by elevating him or her to the
limelight.

The whole purpose of my scheme would be to generate an interesting interim
period while buying the time to find someone younger than 40 (or better yet,
younger than 30) to take a chance on-someone I probably have never even heard
of at this point--someone who can serve as part of the eminent team as a junior
member. The talent is there, but a team-music director situation would buy the
time to make a good selection and build support.

Mengelberg was in his 20s when he took over Amsterdam. People don't get more
talented with age. I think the idea that you have to hire someone established
(Chailly is the notable candidate of this type here) as a single music director
is not helping the marketing of music or helping the quality in the hall, to be
honest. The orchestra is already established; hire someone who can be marketed
as a young genius, as a real "find", as a hometown "hero" and who is energetic
and personable and ready to make a name for himself or herself. If necessary,
team them with someone so old they're revered.

A major orchestra needs this "hunger" for excellence on a public stage. Hiring
a middle-aged conductor who already has name recognition will probably be a
mistake, given that there's no one out there at the right age who will fill
seats by virtue of reputation (Simon Rattle being a possible exception;
Gergiev, too, perhaps, but I fear audiences will tire of him and musicians
won't appreciate his erratic standards).

The public will be eager to see why the board chose this young, unknown. The
media will be instantly curious. Audiences will have no preconceptions other
than that something wonderful must be happening at the Orchestra if someone so
young got the job.

We all can see how conductors who re-record music rarely do a more "energetic",
exciting version. Maybe that's a lesson: hire conductors when they're just
starting out. The likely damage to musical quality is minimal. People often
cite Barbirolli or Kubelik as examples of conductors who were too young when
they were hired in the US. Listening to the palpable intensity of the
Barbirolli/NY concerts and the drive and force of the Kubelik/Chicago Mercury
records, I can see plainly that these guys didn't get "better" as they got
older; they got mellower. They were vanquished in major US assignments by a
lack of management resolve and by idiotic critics and agents.

Part of the reason conductors are hired when they are old is because they
supposedly need time to learn the repertoire. But what that really means is
that they're traveling too much. Give a talented conductor an opportunity and
make sure they don't wander around the globe but do their homework in Chicago,
year-round. The time is there to learn lots of music if their careers don't
become so international so fast.

If management makes the commitment to someone young, commited to one city, the
likely upside in marketing, fundraising, and concert excitement is palpable. Of
course, the orchestra's musicians have to learn to see it that
way...admittedly, a major problem.

--Jeff

Allen

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Jul 7, 2004, 8:41:56 PM7/7/04
to

There are lots of people youv'e never met.
Allen

taro takei

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Jul 7, 2004, 10:25:02 PM7/7/04
to
terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote in message news:<20040707174027...@mb-m07.aol.com>...

> > Kent Nagano, mostly for his abilities, but also as a quid pro
> > quo so I can get him to premiere my Symphony #1 without my
> > having to get program notes translated into French.
> >
> He did a nice Bruckner 3 in Chicago this past season but I think
> his trackrecord with the core repertoire is fairly limited and

> probably not suited to a music directorship of a major American
> orchestra.

I do not have impression that Boulez at NYP did much of "the
core repertoire." At least he has not left many recordings of such.

My question is, what is "the core repertoire" after all. Do you
think Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brhams, Dvorak,
Ravel, Debussy are in the core repertoire? I agree with them. How
about Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Shostakovich, RVW, R. Strauss,
Bartok, Prokofiev? It may be non-sense to list composers names
only, anyway. For modern orchestras there are too many music to
play and I do not think one conductor covering every repertoire
(even "core") is a realistic expectation.

To me, it is just fine a MD who does not do "the core repertoire,"
but ask guest conductors to do them. It is more important that
the orchestra is maintained in good shape and the MD gives his/
her color on it.

Who do you think was an ideal or near-ideal music director in
the past? Of course, I believe Barenboim was one. As to Boston
Symphony, Koussevitzky was, I would say, ideal. Munch did very
good Beethoven, Brhams, then he brought many French music (Berlioz,
Ravel, Honegger...), but BSO became sloppy a bit. Leinsforf,
the only MD at BSO who left complete Beethoven Symphony recording
to date, reshaped the orchestra. Steinberg was there too short
preiod. Ozawa did good Franch repertoire (Berlioz), and 20th-
century music, (well, opinions very..) while Haitink had kept
core repertoire, I think. How about CSO?

-- taro

It's your loss

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 10:51:57 PM7/7/04
to
100% guarentee. . . you can bet the house on it.

It will NOT be

Marin Alsop
Kent Nagano
Antonio Pappano
Eji Oue

Why? Let's just say that the perception of their competence as
musicians among orchestral players differs hugely from the lay person
or 'music lover.' These three are simply not in the same league as:

Riccardo Chailly
Alan Gilbert

Not that any of these will be appointed. But I suspect Chailly and
Robertson will be among the finalists unless one of them actually
withdraws from consideration.

Can Altinbay

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 11:24:12 PM7/7/04
to
"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:Ld%Gc.8655$%A6....@charlie.risq.qc.ca...

Setting aside the fact that she is dead, I guess she might not want to make
a home in the city.


Can Altinbay

unread,
Jul 7, 2004, 11:24:46 PM7/7/04
to
"Ssg217" <ssg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040707190908...@mb-m26.aol.com...

What mockumentary?
(Actually, I know the answer. Take this post with that in mind.)


David7Gable

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:04:34 AM7/8/04
to
>I do not have impression that Boulez at NYP did much of "the
>core repertoire." At least he has not left many recordings of such.

In New York Boulez conducted more music by Mozart than by any other composer.
He performed music by Gabrieli, Schütz, Bach, Handel, and Rameau. He mounted
retrospectives of the music of Haydn and Liszt, did unusual pieces by Schubert
and Schumann, performed plenty of Beethoven and Mahler, some Mendelssohn and
Brahms, more Berlioz than most non-French conductors, not to mention the
expected Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, and Bartók. Very few conductors have ever
had repertories the size of Boulez's.

-david gable

Dan Koren

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 1:02:49 AM7/8/04
to
terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote in message news:<20040707190117...@mb-m19.aol.com>...

> > What the fuck is the "core repertoire" ?!?
> >
> > The music *you* happen to like ?!?
>
> Are you just nuts, or what?

No, I am a perfectly reasonable
person.

There is no such thing as a "core"
repertoire. The "core" repertoire
is entirely in the eye... er, ear
of the beholder/listener.


dk

Dan Koren

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 1:59:34 AM7/8/04
to
"taro takei" <pen...@mail.gr> wrote in message
news:1f24236e.04070...@posting.google.com...
>
> How about CSO?
>


The CSO has been in an unstoppable
decline since Reiner. Barenboim was
only the latest installment in this
ongoing disaster.

dk


Thomas Muething

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:02:52 AM7/8/04
to
Terrymelin schrieb:

>
> I think Gilbert may still be too inexperienced. I last heard Alsop conduct
> about 3 or 4 years ago. I wasn't impressed. She is certainly not ready for the
> Chicago Symphony.

And why would she, since she is already in charge of a better orchestra:
the Bournemouth Symphony.

Thomas

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:33:46 AM7/8/04
to
Paul Goldstein <pgoldst5...@sbcglobal.net> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:cchqg...@drn.newsguy.com:

> In article <40ec6aab$1...@news.meer.net>, Dan Koren says...
>> Unfortunately, the CSO's board of directors will never be so smart as to
>> understand all of the above. They will probably replace Barneboim with
>> another flashy fashion model.
>
> I never thought of Barenboim as a "fashion model."

Nor Solti, nor Kubelik, nor Rodzinski, and certainly not Reiner. Martinon,
well, just maybe. And this might finally be the answer to my perennial
question, "Why Desiré Defauw?"

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:33:48 AM7/8/04
to
Allen <all...@austin.rr.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:oL0Hc.1291$857...@fe2.texas.rr.com:

> Terrymelin wrote:
>> From Mr. Koren:
>>
>>> Gennady Rozhdestvensky.
>>>
>>> Because:
>>
>>> e) he is the greatest conductor alive -- bar none -- and he is not so
>>> old that one would expect him to crap out any day.
>>
>> I've never met a thinking, breathing, human being who ever thought such
>> nonsense.
>>

> There are lots of people youv'e never met.

For that matter, I imagine there are lots of people who wouldn't want to
meet Terry. There might even be some here!

Thomas Muething

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:35:03 AM7/8/04
to
torcik wedlowski schrieb:

> You have just been appointed by the CSO board to choose Barenboim"s
> successor. Who do choose and why?

Michael Gielen.

He's a first-rate conductor in *any* repertoire.

Thomas

JRsnfld

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:21:17 AM7/8/04
to
<< Michael Gielen.

He's a first-rate conductor in *any* repertoire.
>>

Agreed. But at his age I prefer to think of him as a good two-to-three year
"residency" solution.

--Jeff

JRsnfld

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:48:21 AM7/8/04
to
<< It will NOT be

Marin Alsop
Kent Nagano
Antonio Pappano
Eji Oue

Why? Let's just say that the perception of their competence as
musicians among orchestral players differs hugely from the lay person
or 'music lover.' >>

Musicians rarely agree with one another...I know plenty who have high regard
for Nagano, and I suspect many musicians respect the others on your list, as
well.

I find generalizing orchestral musicians' opinions about conductors is good
gossip but a distraction. You want to find a music director who is reasonable,
fair and competent. After all, you work for that person, sometimes for a decade
or more. But you also want a boss who pushes the orchestra, who challenges and
who gets results.

The results are often best judged from out in the hall, in concert, not in
rehearsal or from the stage. After a concert I often find we in the orchestra
disagree about what was good or not so good about a performance. It's too
difficult for one person to judge, because we're busy--preoccupied with our own
tasks. And we're obsessed with baton technique and clarity, stability of tempo
and the like. Things that may or may not determine performance quality, even
though it may feel that way to the performers.

Members of the orchestra are also often quick to judge a conductor based on
short acquiantances, only to become annoyed by a conductor's tics later, after
familiarity sets in.

Making a music director decision solely based on the orchestral musician's
perspective is as likely a recipe for failure as making one based on the
audience's--the customer's--perspective. Someone has to provide some subjective
leadership in this decision, not just poll opinions or tune into gossip.

--Jeff


Dan Koren

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 5:06:38 AM7/8/04
to
"Thomas Muething" <tmue...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:ccipun$vph$04$2...@news.t-online.com...

Whatever he may be, he is not
electable in the US, our dear
Gauleiter!

dk


Thomas Muething

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 5:11:07 AM7/8/04
to
Dan Koren schrieb:

>
> Whatever he may be, he is not
> electable in the US, our dear
> Gauleiter!

Trailer Trash,

please note that other US symphony orchestras have often favored German
conductors.

Thomas

Alex

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 8:33:55 AM7/8/04
to

"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40ec7f37$1...@news.meer.net...
> "Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040707174145...@mb-m07.aol.com...

> > From Mr. Koren:
> > >Gennady Rozhdestvensky.
> > >
> > >Because:
> >
> > >e) he is the greatest conductor
> > > alive -- bar none -- and he
> > > is not so old that one would
> > > expect him to crap out any
> > > day.
> >
> > I've never met a thinking, breathing,
> > human being who ever thought such
> > nonsense.
> >
>
>
> Boy, what an idiot!
>
> Would you (or anyone in his/her right
> mind) appoint Kurt Sanderling? Boards
> must keep in mind certain practical
> considerations when making decisions.

True - though the LSO did something similar with Monteux, didn't they?
Although he seemed a bit more chipper than Sanderling pere, who has retired
anyway hasn't he.


Simon Roberts

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 8:45:38 AM7/8/04
to
In article <ccj33b$a1l$05$1...@news.t-online.com>, Thomas Muething says...

Including Gielen!

Simon

Tom Deacon

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 9:18:33 AM7/8/04
to
On 7/7/04 5:27 PM, in article 40ec6aab$1...@news.meer.net, "Dan Koren"
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "torcik wedlowski" <delasa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3jeoe0ds0ak274gfu...@4ax.com...


>>
>> You have just been appointed by the CSO
>> board to choose Barenboim"s successor.
>> Who do choose and why?
>
>

> Gennady Rozhdestvensky.

Ohne oder mit Frau?

TD

Gerrit Stolte

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 9:39:31 AM7/8/04
to
In article <20040707174027...@mb-m07.aol.com>,
terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote:

> >Kent Nagano, mostly for his abilities, but also as a quid pro quo so I can
> >get him to premiere my Symphony #1 without my having to get program notes
> >translated into French.
> >
>
> He did a nice Bruckner 3 in Chicago this past season but I think his track
> record with the core repertoire is fairly limited and probably not suited to a
> music directorship of a major American orchestra.


Didn't you call somebody narrow-minded in this thread? I mean, it's
difficult to argue more narrow-minded than you. Has to live in America,
has to conduct American music, is not suited for a major American
orchestra. What exactly is it, that seperates US-orchestras from South
American, Asian, European or Australian orchestras? Whoever is qualified
to head one of the major German orchestras is as qualified to do the job
in Chicago, New York, Boston etc.

Gerrit

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:13:03 AM7/8/04
to
>I do not have impression that Boulez at NYP did much of "the
>core repertoire." At least he has not left many recordings of such.

Which is partly why his NY tenure was such a failure.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:12:31 AM7/8/04
to
>> I've never met a thinking, breathing, human being who ever thought such
>> nonsense.
>>
>> Terry Ellsworth
>There are lots of people youv'e never met.
>Allen

Make the case. I'd love to hear it.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:12:08 AM7/8/04
to
>I would ask Gielen and/or Skrowaczewski and/or Rozhdestvensky and/or Haitink

Gielen? Are you serious? We just got rid of that old hack. His music-making is
so boring he put everyone to sleep.

The rest of what you said made a lot of sense.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:13:52 AM7/8/04
to
From Mr. Koren:

>The CSO has been in an unstoppable
>decline since Reiner. Barenboim was
>only the latest installment in this
>ongoing disaster.

You already stated that you don't care so why do you feel the need to keep
opining?

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:15:12 AM7/8/04
to
>And why would she, since she is already in charge of a better orchestra:
>the Bournemouth Symphony.
>
>Thomas

ROTFLOL. Now that's funny.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:14:32 AM7/8/04
to
>Why? Let's just say that the perception of their competence as
>musicians among orchestral players differs hugely from the lay person
>or 'music lover.' These three are simply not in the same league as:
>
>Riccardo Chailly
>Alan Gilbert
>
>Not that any of these will be appointed. But I suspect Chailly and
>Robertson will be among the finalists unless one of them actually
>withdraws from consideration.
>
Chailly -- if what has been stated about what is wanted is true -- has
absolutely no chance of being engaged.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:15:39 AM7/8/04
to
>Michael Gielen.
>
>He's a first-rate conductor in *any* repertoire.
>
>Thomas
>

He's a boring old hack as his concerts in Chicago have shown.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:18:03 AM7/8/04
to
>Didn't you call somebody narrow-minded in this thread? I mean, it's
>difficult to argue more narrow-minded than you. Has to live in America,
>has to conduct American music, is not suited for a major American
>orchestra. What exactly is it, that seperates US-orchestras from South
>American, Asian, European or Australian orchestras? Whoever is qualified
>to head one of the major German orchestras is as qualified to do the job
>in Chicago, New York, Boston etc.
>
>Gerrit

I was stating facts. The Chicago Symphony is ready for an American conductor.
That's not narrow-minded. It's called reality.

Terry Ellsworth

Tom Deacon

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:10:00 AM7/8/04
to
On 7/8/04 8:45 AM, in article ccjfl...@drn.newsguy.com, "Simon Roberts"
<sd...@comcast.net> wrote:

And specially in Cincinnati, that bastion of democracy and freedom.

Boston, however, the veritable cradle of democracy, sent Muck packing in
short order.

TD

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:34:02 AM7/8/04
to
Gerrit Stolte <stolte...@netscape.net> appears to have caused the

following letters to be typed in
news:stoltegerrit-54A0...@news.t-online.com:

But a conductor of an American orchestra has to be able to put butts in the
seats, as we say; and American butts need different kinds of persuasion
from your old-fashioned Euro-butts.

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:37:28 AM7/8/04
to
Alain Dagher <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> Terrymelin wrote:
>>>I thought he just decided he didn't want to do it anymore and so chose
>>>not to renew his contract.
>>>
>>>ad
>>
>>
>> He never did "do it."
>>

> That is not quite what Henry Fogel said:

Indeed, as I wrote awhile back, Barenboim had done a lot for the CSO in
fundraising and promotion. A certain Board member sees it as a personal
betrayal when a musician nearing 65 chooses not to extend this activity at
a time where most folks begin to wind down their careers and focus on what
is dearest to them. I find this attitude rather disrespectful and
smacking of never having held a job.

> http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=111&thl=927746880,928005074,927999730,927220787,927170316,927158239,926916114,926800094,926790130,927024822,926924205,927881191&seekm=53273e4a.0406021708.45bce54%40posting.google.com#link117


>> As you might guess, I need to be fairly careful here because it is a situation
>> in which I know all of the parties, and wish to denigrate none of them. But I
>> think I can supply some facts that you and others might find helpful.
>> "Fundraising" is too generalized a word. Music Directors, particularly in major
>> orchestras, are not expected to specifically fundraise -- that is, they are not
>> expected to ask for the gift. But they are expected to participate in some
>> events that recognize donors, whether larger receptions held by the institution
>> or, in some cases, dinners or gatherings held in homes or smaller venues. This
>> is known to be a part of the job now in virtually any American orchestra
>> and Mr. Barenboim not only knew it from the beginning, but has done it,
>> sometimes more happily than at others. I think in part what he is saying now is
>> that he doesn't wish to keep doing it -- whereas the institution might wish him
>> to do more of it. These are not black and white (i.e., he does none or he does
>> all) situations -- but a question of degree.
>>
>> Beyond fundraising, there is the question of interacting with the board and
>> management -- of accepting the role of being one of the administrative leaders
>> of a complicated institution. It is easy for those outside the business to
>> separate the artistic side from the money side -- but in truth there is
>> virtually no separation. Different programs have different sales potential, and
>> have different expenses -- perhaps requiring extra rehearsal, extra players,
>> etc. Where does the orchestra tour -- what are the tour priorities, high fees
>> or prestigious cities (they are often not the same)? These and many other
>> issues combine artistic and economic factors and music directors must,
>> increasingly in this economy, be willing to devote time to working with
>> management and board committees to work their way through the fiscal realities.
>> I believe, again, that Mr. Barenboim (who has always done this, but not always
>> happily) is saying he doesn't have patience for it any longer.

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:39:05 AM7/8/04
to
David7Gable <david...@aol.com> wrote:
>>I do not have impression that Boulez at NYP did much of "the
>>core repertoire." At least he has not left many recordings of such.

> In New York Boulez conducted more music by Mozart than by any other composer.
> He performed music by Gabrieli, Schütz, Bach, Handel, and Rameau. He mounted
> retrospectives of the music of Haydn and Liszt, did unusual pieces by Schubert
> and Schumann, performed plenty of Beethoven and Mahler, some Mendelssohn and
> Brahms, more Berlioz than most non-French conductors, not to mention the
> expected Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, and Bartók. Very few conductors have ever
> had repertories the size of Boulez's.

Indeed, name another major conductor with Machaut in their rep...

> -david gable

Martha & Russ Oppenheim

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 10:54:08 AM7/8/04
to

Can Altinbay wrote:
>
> "Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
> news:Ld%Gc.8655$%A6....@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
> > Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > PS. If Mother Teresa could conduct, the CSO board would
> > > have probably found some fault with her too.
> > >
> >
> > Is Hitchens on the board?
> >
>
> Setting aside the fact that she is dead, I guess she might not want to make
> a home in the city.

Why can't a dead person serve on a board? They vote in Texas. ;o)

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 11:32:14 AM7/8/04
to
>
>Why can't a dead person serve on a board? They vote in Texas. ;o)

You got that wrong. Dead people vote in Chicago and have for over 50 years.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 11:31:42 AM7/8/04
to
>Indeed, as I wrote awhile back, Barenboim had done a lot for the CSO in
>fundraising and promotion. A certain Board member sees it as a personal
>betrayal when a musician nearing 65 chooses not to extend this activity at
>a time where most folks begin to wind down their careers and focus on what
>is dearest to them. I find this attitude rather disrespectful and
>smacking of never having held a job.

I don't think that is even remotely an accurate reflection of the situation.
This isn't just about Mr. Barenboim's refusal to do "fundraising and
promotion." Which is a known fact. It is about promises made that weren't kept.

It is also about the kinds of repertoire that Mr. Barenboim consistently
refused to present in Chicago despite both its merit and his constantly being
asked to do so. There are whole areas of the rep that he just refused allow to
be presented in Chicago either by his own refusal to learn them or to assign
them to guest conductors. This is known.

For all the good that Mr. Barenboim did and accomplished in Chicago -- and
there was a great deal of it as I count myself among his biggest fans and
supporters -- there was a great deal that was lacking. In the end, it became
too much for both him and for the board, management, and audiences.

Terry Ellsworth

Alain Dagher

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 11:59:27 AM7/8/04
to
Terrymelin wrote:
>>Indeed, as I wrote awhile back, Barenboim had done a lot for the CSO in
>>fundraising and promotion. A certain Board member sees it as a personal
>>betrayal when a musician nearing 65 chooses not to extend this activity at
>>a time where most folks begin to wind down their careers and focus on what
>>is dearest to them. I find this attitude rather disrespectful and
>>smacking of never having held a job.
>
>
> I don't think that is even remotely an accurate reflection of the situation.
> This isn't just about Mr. Barenboim's refusal to do "fundraising and
> promotion." Which is a known fact. It is about promises made that weren't kept.
>
> It is also about the kinds of repertoire that Mr. Barenboim consistently
> refused to present in Chicago despite both its merit and his constantly being
> asked to do so. There are whole areas of the rep that he just refused allow to
> be presented in Chicago either by his own refusal to learn them or to assign
> them to guest conductors. This is known.
>
> For all the good that Mr. Barenboim did and accomplished in Chicago -- and
> there was a great deal of it as I count myself among his biggest fans and
> supporters --


With friends like you ...

ad

Gerrit Stolte

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 11:58:58 AM7/8/04
to
Am Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:34:02 GMT schrieb Matthew B. Tepper:

> But a conductor of an American orchestra has to be able to put butts in the
> seats, as we say; and American butts need different kinds of persuasion
> from your old-fashioned Euro-butts.

I see. Well, actually I don't. Have those *needs* developed during the
past, er, two or three years? Otherwise, the situation *now* in Chicago
isn't that much different to the times when Kubelik/Reiner/Solti etc. were
at the baton, of which nobody was an American or was especially
preconditioned to realize and please the specific *needs* of American
audiences.

How empty were the seats during Eschenbach's time in Houston, Dohnanyi's
time in Cleveland, Masur's time in New York (I would understand empty seats
in that case ;-)) etc. etc.

Gerrit

Gerrit Stolte

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:03:11 PM7/8/04
to

How to you define the term *ready for*? What set of conditions consitute
this situation? Unless you can make it clear, your reasoning is nothing
more than thinly disguised xenophobia.

Gerrit

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:20:48 PM7/8/04
to
Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Indeed, as I wrote awhile back, Barenboim had done a lot for the CSO in
>>fundraising and promotion. A certain Board member sees it as a personal
>>betrayal when a musician nearing 65 chooses not to extend this activity at
>>a time where most folks begin to wind down their careers and focus on what
>>is dearest to them. I find this attitude rather disrespectful and
>>smacking of never having held a job.

> I don't think that is even remotely an accurate reflection of the situation.
> This isn't just about Mr. Barenboim's refusal to do "fundraising and
> promotion." Which is a known fact.

"This [fundraising and donor recognition] is known to be a part of the job


now in virtually any American orchestra and Mr. Barenboim not only knew it

from the beginning, but has done it, sometimes more happily than others."
(Henry Fogel, former President of the CSO)

> It is about promises made that weren't kept.

What promises? Be specific and please cite where he willfully refused to
fulfill them. Sources will help set this straight.

> It is also about the kinds of repertoire that Mr. Barenboim consistently
> refused to present in Chicago despite both its merit and his constantly being
> asked to do so. There are whole areas of the rep that he just refused allow to
> be presented in Chicago either by his own refusal to learn them or to assign
> them to guest conductors. This is known.

Specifics please. Which specific rep? By whom? And incidents where he
refused to allow specific conductors (their names please) to handle this
repertoire. This should be verifiable.

> For all the good that Mr. Barenboim did and accomplished in Chicago -- and
> there was a great deal of it as I count myself among his biggest fans and
> supporters -- there was a great deal that was lacking. In the end, it became
> too much for both him and for the board, management, and audiences.

Since the Board and management seemed genuinely upset about his planned
departure, I'd like some substance to back this assertion as well. The
record shows that a serious effort was made to change Barenboim's mind. I
found few audience members who stated their burden was too great.

> Terry Ellsworth

Ssg217

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:26:45 PM7/8/04
to
>
>> It is about promises made that weren't kept.
>
>What promises? Be specific and please cite where he willfully refused to
>fulfill them. Sources will help set this straight.

Wow! World, take heed! Mr. Lark has sources!!

Mr. Lark, be kind and enlighten me: when is the end of the world coming? I
wanna make sure to sell all my stock beforehand and get drunk with the most
expensive wine those money can buy. I am prepared to go as high as a California
Table Red.

regards,
SG

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:41:56 PM7/8/04
to
>With friends like you ...
>
>ad

There is a difference between a "friend" -- a word I never used -- and a
"supporter."

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:46:19 PM7/8/04
to
>"This [fundraising and donor recognition] is known to be a part of the job
>now in virtually any American orchestra and Mr. Barenboim not only knew it
>from the beginning, but has done it, sometimes more happily than others."
>(Henry Fogel, former President of the CSO)

That is not inconsistent with anything I have stated or that has been stated
publicly. It's about degrees. "Sometimes more happily than others" really means
something in this context.

I can tell you that a great many donors felt that while he showed up for things
-- often late -- he acted like he was being bothered while at the events. He
was condescending. He was rude. That's not inconsistent with what Mr. Fogel
said.

>What promises? Be specific and please cite where he willfully refused to
>fulfill them. Sources will help set this straight.

It's a well known fact in Chicago that Mr. Barenboim promised -- when he took
the job -- that he wasn't going to just be an occasional guest in our city. He
was going to become a citizen of our city and be more than just a conductor at
the symphony. This never happened. He flew in and out; never made Chicago his
home; and didn't collaborate with other musical institutions as promised. Those
are facts. Which ones would you care to dispute?

>Specifics please. Which specific rep? By whom? And incidents where he
>refused to allow specific conductors (their names please) to handle this
>repertoire. This should be verifiable.
>

You obviously don't get around much. If you do, you'd know damn well that this
kind of information cannot be released. Are you that immature?

>Since the Board and management seemed genuinely upset about his planned
>departure, I'd like some substance to back this assertion as well. The
>record shows that a serious effort was made to change Barenboim's mind. I
>found few audience members who stated their burden was too great.
>

As you would say "cite specifics." Name these people. Let's verify it.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:47:04 PM7/8/04
to
>Wow! World, take heed! Mr. Lark has sources!!
>
>Mr. Lark, be kind and enlighten me: when is the end of the world coming? I
>wanna make sure to sell all my stock beforehand and get drunk with the most
>expensive wine those money can buy. I am prepared to go as high as a
>California
>Table Red.
>
>regards,
>SG
>

Since he's so hung up on "verifying" things I look forward to him naming his
sources of information so that we can all verify their veracity.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:48:13 PM7/8/04
to
>How to you define the term *ready for*? What set of conditions consitute
>this situation? Unless you can make it clear, your reasoning is nothing
>more than thinly disguised xenophobia.
>
>Gerrit
>

How about the fact that they haven't had one in more than 100 years of
existence and they are an American orchestra? Is there a comparable situation
in the "broad-minded" Fatherland that you occupy?

Terry Ellsworth

Alain Dagher

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:50:47 PM7/8/04
to
Terrymelin wrote:

>>"This [fundraising and donor recognition] is known to be a part of the job
>>now in virtually any American orchestra and Mr. Barenboim not only knew it
>
>>from the beginning, but has done it, sometimes more happily than others."
>
>>(Henry Fogel, former President of the CSO)
>
>
> That is not inconsistent with anything I have stated or that has been stated
> publicly. It's about degrees. "Sometimes more happily than others" really means
> something in this context.
>
> I can tell you that a great many donors felt that while he showed up for things
> -- often late -- he acted like he was being bothered while at the events. He
> was condescending. He was rude.

But you were there to lay on the old charm, right?

ad

Ssg217

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 12:54:20 PM7/8/04
to
>> He was rude.
>
>But you were there to lay on the old charm, right?

The M.D.'s job is to be charming. The board's job is to be ruthless. ( :

Now, seriously, it's not like I am on either side on this (I don't have enough
info to pick a side), but you guys kinda ganged up on Terry.

regards,
SG

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 1:47:58 PM7/8/04
to
Ssg217 <ssg...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It is about promises made that weren't kept.
>>
>>What promises? Be specific and please cite where he willfully refused to
>>fulfill them. Sources will help set this straight.

> Wow! World, take heed! Mr. Lark has sources!!

Samir, parse the remark again. I asked for citations and add "sources
will help set this straight". Citations=sources. I said nothing about
myself.


> Mr. Lark, be kind and enlighten me: when is the end of the world coming? I
> wanna make sure to sell all my stock beforehand and get drunk with the most
> expensive wine those money can buy. I am prepared to go as high as a California
> Table Red.

I'd suggest sticking with a Romanian red and waiting for Ellsworth's
reply. As for your stock, I'd suggest you invest in digital phone
cameras. Despite Donald Rumsfeld's dour view of them, they appear ready
to take off.

> regards,
> SG

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 1:55:50 PM7/8/04
to

Mr. Ellsworth knows my sources. As he should remember, I entered this
fray today citing Fogel's comment yesterday. Fogel's remarks clearly
repudiated those of Ellsworth. That is why I asked Ellsworth for
sources/citations so that we could get around the he said/she said
mudslinging and verify facts. He seems unwilling to do so, much as he was
unwilling in January to publically divulge to the Members Committee how he
knew the intimate details of CSO contract negotiations. That was a rather
unfortunate interchange, since its shockwaves eventually shook the walls
of the yachting club to which he belongs.

> Terry Ellsworth

Gerrit Stolte

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:01:50 PM7/8/04
to

I don't care about the nationality, skin-colour or religion of a conductor,
musician or human being. That's your business. I couldn't care less wether
the conductor of my hometown orchestra were Russian, Chinese, German or
Brazilian. As it happens to be, he's from the United States of America,
however he wasn't appointed because of his nationality.

I also haven't spoken about the United States or the entire US-population
and certainly haven't accused it of racism because of the actions of
individuals. Another *honorable privilige* you're a excelling in. However,
I don't have the slightest problem in calling you a xenophobe, wouldn't be
suprised if you were a racist and realise, somehow saddened, that you
display a phenomenal lack of intelligence and logical capabilities. Work on
it ...

Gerrit

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:04:07 PM7/8/04
to
Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote:
>>"This [fundraising and donor recognition] is known to be a part of the job
>>now in virtually any American orchestra and Mr. Barenboim not only knew it
>>from the beginning, but has done it, sometimes more happily than others."
>>(Henry Fogel, former President of the CSO)

> That is not inconsistent with anything I have stated or that has been stated
> publicly. It's about degrees. "Sometimes more happily than others" really means
> something in this context.

Sounds like you're primed for entertaining the 911 Commission...

> I can tell you that a great many donors felt that while he showed up for things
> -- often late -- he acted like he was being bothered while at the events. He
> was condescending. He was rude. That's not inconsistent with what Mr. Fogel
> said.

"Sometimes more happily than others" = rude. I see...

>>What promises? Be specific and please cite where he willfully refused to
>>fulfill them. Sources will help set this straight.

> It's a well known fact in Chicago that Mr. Barenboim promised -- when he took
> the job -- that he wasn't going to just be an occasional guest in our city. He
> was going to become a citizen of our city and be more than just a conductor at

Was this a contractual promise?

> the symphony. This never happened. He flew in and out; never made Chicago his
> home; and didn't collaborate with other musical institutions as promised. Those
> are facts. Which ones would you care to dispute?

He never worked with the Chicago Youth Orchestra?

>>Specifics please. Which specific rep? By whom? And incidents where he
>>refused to allow specific conductors (their names please) to handle this
>>repertoire. This should be verifiable.
>>

> You obviously don't get around much. If you do, you'd know damn well that this
> kind of information cannot be released. Are you that immature?

The repertoire cannot be released? Who's immature?

>>Since the Board and management seemed genuinely upset about his planned
>>departure, I'd like some substance to back this assertion as well. The
>>record shows that a serious effort was made to change Barenboim's mind. I
>>found few audience members who stated their burden was too great.
>>

> As you would say "cite specifics." Name these people. Let's verify it.

The people whose burden was too great?

> Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:15:45 PM7/8/04
to
>But you were there to lay on the old charm, right?
>
>ad

Do you have anything constructive to add or are you just another of those old,
nasty interlopers?

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:17:33 PM7/8/04
to
> much as he was
>unwilling in January to publically divulge to the Members Committee how he
>knew the intimate details of CSO contract negotiations.

You really must be smoking something since the above never happened or no such
claim was ever made.

You obviously have some ox to gore. May I respectfully suggest you go gore it
someplace else?

Terry Ellsworth

Simon Roberts

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:33:15 PM7/8/04
to
In article <Xns95204CFBA92...@207.217.125.202>, Matthew B. Tepper
says...

>
>Gerrit Stolte <stolte...@netscape.net> appears to have caused the
>following letters to be typed in
>news:stoltegerrit-54A0...@news.t-online.com:
>
>> In article <20040707174027...@mb-m07.aol.com>,
>> terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote:
>>
>>> >Kent Nagano, mostly for his abilities, but also as a quid pro quo so I
>>> >can get him to premiere my Symphony #1 without my having to get
>>> >program notes translated into French.
>>> >
>>> He did a nice Bruckner 3 in Chicago this past season but I think his
>>> track record with the core repertoire is fairly limited and probably
>>> not suited to a music directorship of a major American orchestra.
>>
>> Didn't you call somebody narrow-minded in this thread? I mean, it's
>> difficult to argue more narrow-minded than you. Has to live in America,
>> has to conduct American music, is not suited for a major American
>> orchestra. What exactly is it, that seperates US-orchestras from South
>> American, Asian, European or Australian orchestras? Whoever is qualified
>> to head one of the major German orchestras is as qualified to do the job
>> in Chicago, New York, Boston etc.
>
>But a conductor of an American orchestra has to be able to put butts in the
>seats, as we say; and American butts need different kinds of persuasion
>from your old-fashioned Euro-butts.

As far as I can tell a Brit-fake-Pole, a Hungarian, an Italian and a German did
quite a good job in the American-butt-on-seats department here in Philadelphia;
the same may be true of the present German, who was a default choice after the
Brit who was evidently first choice replaced an Italian in Berlin. Is there any
evidence at all to support the implication that if an American were appointed to
lead an American orchestra the butts-on-seats situation would improve?

Simon

Gerrit Stolte

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 2:56:22 PM7/8/04
to
Am 8 Jul 2004 11:33:15 -0700 schrieb Simon Roberts:

> In article <Xns95204CFBA92...@207.217.125.202>, Matthew B. Tepper
> says...
>

>>But a conductor of an American orchestra has to be able to put butts in the
>>seats, as we say; and American butts need different kinds of persuasion
>>from your old-fashioned Euro-butts.
>
> As far as I can tell a Brit-fake-Pole, a Hungarian, an Italian and a German did
> quite a good job in the American-butt-on-seats department here in Philadelphia;
> the same may be true of the present German, who was a default choice after the
> Brit who was evidently first choice replaced an Italian in Berlin. Is there any
> evidence at all to support the implication that if an American were appointed to
> lead an American orchestra the butts-on-seats situation would improve?

If at all, no musical evidence.

Gerrit

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:00:08 PM7/8/04
to
Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote:
>> much as he was
>>unwilling in January to publically divulge to the Members Committee how he
>>knew the intimate details of CSO contract negotiations.

> You really must be smoking something since the above never happened or no such
> claim was ever made.

"They were also offered a broadcast fee on a level with the New York
Phil..." (12/22/03)

>I believe that the broadcast fee that the New York Phil receives is
>for a one hour program. The same fee was offered to the CSO for a full
>concert broadcast. Not exactly the same.
>David Sanders
>Chicago Symphony Cellist

No, actually, it is not. More obfuscation and misinformation.

Terry Ellsworth (12/23/03)

> You obviously have some ox to gore. May I respectfully suggest you go gore it
> someplace else?

No. However, in December of 2003 you made it quite clear you knew what
the musicians were offered. So you know things that the public is not
privy to.

> Terry Ellsworth

Clovis Lark

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:00:44 PM7/8/04
to

Do you know Terry's relationship to the CSO?

> regards,
> SG

David7Gable

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:14:10 PM7/8/04
to
>Including Gielen!

Who has the further advantage of being one of the tiny handful of most
imaginative and musical conductors alive.

-david gable

M. Weston

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:25:27 PM7/8/04
to
terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote in message news:<20040708101539...@mb-m13.aol.com>...
> >Michael Gielen.
> He's a boring old hack as his concerts in Chicago have shown.
> Terry Ellsworth

Not the CSO concert I was at of Poulenc, Dutilleux and Ravel. And I'd
see him again without hesitation. Am I wrong to see some similarity
between BouleZ and Gielen in their musical tastes and abilities?

I've seen Pappano at the CSO and the results were nothing special, and
Pappano seemed to think the first piece was "Concerto for
Air-sucking-conductor". The orchestra played at another level for
Gielen.

That's about all I can add except that I know some of the players want
Robertson. His upcoming Ravinia concert with the NYPO looks very
promising on paper:
Mendelssohn: The Hebrides ("Fingal's Cave"), Op. 26
Debussy: "Nuages" and "Fetes" from Nocturnes
Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto in E Minor, Op. 64
Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:59:15 PM7/8/04
to
Gerrit Stolte <gerrit...@web.de> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:ggk4cbbjzn6h.1aufyg50z3o2o$.d...@40tude.net:

Well, there's a great deal of sense in what you say. But you have to know
that the concept of "culture" is different in the USA than in Old Europe. In
Europe, for example, they would readily agree with Isaac Stern's dictum (as
often quoted here by Len Mullenger in his sig) that "Music is not an acquired
culture ... it is an active part of natural life."

In the USA, however, "culture" is something added on, a sheen, a decoration,
usually to make one feel or appear "superior" to those with what are
laughingly called "simple" tastes. I think this is rubbish. I like sitting
in front of the TV in my underwear, drinking a beer, although what's on the
screen is more likely to be an opera than a football game. I like the stuff
that I like because it appeals to me; but I am not like most Americans.

Too many Americans, if they are even aware of "high art," would rather just
plunk down a few bucks for a couple of LaserLights or a collection of The
Best Tunes from the Opera. Occasionally in this newsgroup we see what I call
the "Imperious Yuppie," some cretin who wishes to acquire culture in the most
expedient manner possible, by demanding to know "What is the best" of this
and that so he can buy a CD and listen to it and expect to be transformed.
That is not, I fear, a rare attitude.

Here in the USA, the media have been engaged in a war *against* high art;
after all, it rarely makes big bucks for the marketers, and even gets in
their way. Classical radio stations must be purchased and destroyed so that
Clear Channel can add yet another rock station to its collection and compete
with the twenty other rock stations within broadcast range.

So a conductor wishing an appointment in the USA is expected to kiss hands of
the wives of major benefactors, oversee remedial programs (which alas appear
to be increasingly needed, given the war on art as noted above), and submit
to fluffy interviews by knowledge-free print and broadcast journalists. Some
of those journalists will insist on getting the conductor's impressions of
other musical genres, and I've seen Sergiu Comissiona pressed into a corner
where he had to say something nice about some rap star who probably died not
too long afterwards.

The whole thing sucks.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:59:17 PM7/8/04
to
Gerrit Stolte <gerrit...@web.de> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1btj9qm4yk8ov.1kcipop4ijitf$.d...@40tude.net:

I've got the best kind of evidence for you, namely results. Look at what
Michael Tilson Thomas has done in San Francisco, post-Blomstedt.

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 3:59:19 PM7/8/04
to
david...@aol.com (David7Gable) appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:20040708151410...@mb-m20.aol.com:

>>Including Gielen!
>
> Who has the further advantage of being one of the tiny handful of most
> imaginative and musical conductors alive.

So just how big of a success was he in Cincinnati?

Gerrit Stolte

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:11:27 PM7/8/04
to
Am Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:59:17 GMT schrieb Matthew B. Tepper:

> Gerrit Stolte <gerrit...@web.de> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:1btj9qm4yk8ov.1kcipop4ijitf$.d...@40tude.net:
>
>> Am 8 Jul 2004 11:33:15 -0700 schrieb Simon Roberts:
>>
>>> In article <Xns95204CFBA92...@207.217.125.202>, Matthew B.
>>> Tepper says...
>>>
>>>>But a conductor of an American orchestra has to be able to put butts in
>>>>the seats, as we say; and American butts need different kinds of
>>>>persuasion from your old-fashioned Euro-butts.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell a Brit-fake-Pole, a Hungarian, an Italian and a
>>> German did quite a good job in the American-butt-on-seats department
>>> here in Philadelphia; the same may be true of the present German, who
>>> was a default choice after the Brit who was evidently first choice
>>> replaced an Italian in Berlin. Is there any evidence at all to support
>>> the implication that if an American were appointed to lead an American
>>> orchestra the butts-on-seats situation would improve?
>>
>> If at all, no musical evidence.
>
> I've got the best kind of evidence for you, namely results. Look at what
> Michael Tilson Thomas has done in San Francisco, post-Blomstedt.

Do you think that this is the result of MTT (btw. is Tilson part of his
last name?) being an American or because he's doing a terrific job, praised
even in *old* and *new* Europe. Blomstedt might have made some decent
recordings at the end of 70s/start of the 80s, but he's obviously past his
prime, as can be witnessed in most concert broadcasts from Leipzig during
the past couple of years.

Gerrit

David7Gable

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:14:21 PM7/8/04
to
> Am I wrong to see some similarity
>between BouleZ and Gielen in their musical tastes and abilities?

Gielen phrases with greater distinction and is much less interested in sound
qua sound. It's partly a question of German inwardness versus French
sensualism. Some of their 20th-century repertory overlaps, of course, but I'd
rather hear Gielen than Boulez in classical repertory.

-david gable

David7Gable

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:16:54 PM7/8/04
to
>So just how big of a success was he in Cincinnati?
>

I have no idea, but with his Abraham Lincoln beard he doesn't have the matinee
idol looks or relative youth that have helped Salonen and MTT in San Francisco
and L.A. Unfortunately, these things count more when it comes to marketing
than they used to: marketing, not music.

-david gable

Paul Goldstein

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:00:32 PM7/8/04
to
In article <1e6319bb.04070...@posting.google.com>, M. Weston says...

>
>terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote in message
>news:<20040708101539...@mb-m13.aol.com>...
>> >Michael Gielen.
>> He's a boring old hack as his concerts in Chicago have shown.
>> Terry Ellsworth
>
>Not the CSO concert I was at of Poulenc, Dutilleux and Ravel. And I'd
>see him again without hesitation. Am I wrong to see some similarity
>between BouleZ and Gielen in their musical tastes and abilities?

You are quite right, of course. Gielen is also in many ways the reincarnation
of Hans Rosbaud, a connoisseur's favorite with a wide repertoire and a special
expertise and flair for difficult music. These attributes make Gielen about as
likely to replace Barenboim in Chicago as Elaine's sometime boyfriend the
Maestro is, or that Intrilligator fellow that our new friends from Dubuque are
so enthusiastic about.

Paul Goldstein

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:27:56 PM7/8/04
to
>As far as I can tell a Brit-fake-Pole, a Hungarian, an Italian and a German
>did
>quite a good job in the American-butt-on-seats department here in
>Philadelphia;
>the same may be true of the present German, who was a default choice after
>the
>Brit who was evidently first choice replaced an Italian in Berlin. Is there
>any
>evidence at all to support the implication that if an American were appointed
>to
>lead an American orchestra the butts-on-seats situation would improve?
>
>Simon
>
>
Probably not although some might claim that MTT has done exactly that in San
Francisco.

I, frankly, don't think it has to be an American although it could be argued
that it is about time. Why shouldn't an American conductor become music
director of an orchestra that is well over 100 years old and has never had one
before?

It a perfect world I would like them to hire the person who is the best
conductor for the job. We don't live in that world. Someone is needed who can
schmooze donors, generate excitement, and raise money. We don't have state
funding of our orchestras here.

I would prefer someone who can generate musical excitement and conduct
meaningful performances not someone who is an expert fundraiser. But,
apparently, that is no longer realistic.

I hope we get someone who is a combination of the two so all quarters will be
satisfied. I hope I'm not dreaming.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:30:09 PM7/8/04
to
>
>Do you think that this is the result of MTT (btw. is Tilson part of his
>last name?) being an American or because he's doing a terrific job, praised
>even in *old* and *new* Europe.

It's a combination of the two. But the fact that he can relate to his audience
and speak their language certainly helps.

But Esa Pekka Salonen is an example of a non-American doing the same thing in
Los Angeles.

You also haven't answered my question ... what would the situation be like in
Germany if all of their major orchestras had American music directors and had
never had a German one? Do you think that would be accepted? Let he who is
without sin cast the first xenophobia.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:31:06 PM7/8/04
to

I am surprised you think that. He led a number of concerts in Chicago -- over a
period of 3 years or so -- and they were among the most sleep-inducing, boring,
and unimaginative interpretations of classics that I have ever heard.

I don't understand the acclaim he gets.

Terry Ellsworth

Terrymelin

unread,
Jul 8, 2004, 4:32:59 PM7/8/04
to
>I don't care about the nationality, skin-colour or religion of a conductor,
>musician or human being. That's your business. I couldn't care less wether
>the conductor of my hometown orchestra were Russian, Chinese, German or
>Brazilian. As it happens to be, he's from the United States of America,
>however he wasn't appointed because of his nationality.
>
>I also haven't spoken about the United States or the entire US-population
>and certainly haven't accused it of racism because of the actions of
>individuals. Another *honorable privilige* you're a excelling in. However,
>I don't have the slightest problem in calling you a xenophobe, wouldn't be
>suprised if you were a racist and realise, somehow saddened, that you
>display a phenomenal lack of intelligence and logical capabilities. Work on
>it ...
>
>Gerrit
>
It sounds like you need some serious medical attention. What, exactly, is your
problem?

It seems to me that the one who is the first to yell "racism" -- especially
when it doesn't exist -- is usually the one who harbors the racism in their own
hearts.

Terry Ellsworth

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