A REAL Great Recording of the Century: Craft conducts Brahms-Schoenberg
tomdeacon
against Sony for as yet unreleased favourite recordings, surely now
that they have issued the Robert Craft/Chicago Symphony Orchestra
recording of the Brahms-Schoenberg Quartet as part of their "Great
Performances" series, those critics should, at least for a time, be
silent.
If there ever was a "great recording" or "great performance", this has
to be it! Indeed, most of the other items in the Great Performances
series are far from great. But this is the exception that proves the
rule.
Indeed, I have often wondered "why" this performance is so great. Well,
one can start with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, of coursse. Perhaps
you can end there as well. But as a start, right out of the gate, this
ensemble simply defies description here. Not a single section of the
orchestra seems weak to me. Just as the winds and brass impress one
with their sheer brilliance, even at the impossibly - but perfectly -
quick tempi Craft sets, along come the strings to outdo their
colleagues in brilliance and warmth. Really, this is one amazing
demonstration of orchestral ensemble playig. I wonder whether any
orchestra in the world at the same time would have been capable of such
dazzling playing. Cleveland, perhaps? But their playing would not have
the same brazen, "listen to me play", kind of virtuosity that the
Chicago players demonstrate. Frankly, this recording takes any of the
Reiner performances and raises it a few notches. And that is saying a
great deal, I would imagine all here would agree.
Then there is Craft's absolutely Toscanini-like direction. Talk about
no-nonsense, unsentimental Brahms. He simply sweeps through the first
movement of the piece like a tornado, with the orchestra following
every step of the way. Then in the finale no orchestra has
"out-zingaresed" the CSO here.
This CD I was only able to find in Europe for some reason. Canadian
stores have not had it, so far at least. But one thing is sure, when we
do finally get to Heaven, if that is to be our ultimate fate, God will
have this CD permanently engraved on his iPod.
TD
Bob Lombard
"tomdeacon" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1163787809.0...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>[...]
I never get to Europe any more... so you'll send me a copy?
bl
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:12ls5ai...@corp.supernews.com:
I am in complete agreement with Tom Deacon's review in every particular.
As for iPods, this was one of the first three or four I installed on mine.
I will note that Cziffra Jr./Budapest Symphony are no slouches when it
comes to the zingarese finale, though.
My friend John DeChancie, an award-winning writer chiefly known for his
"Castle Perilous" novels, now out of print, has written his first murder
mystery. It is set in Los Angeles in 1937, and the detective is none other
than Oscar Levant. Naturally this gave John the opportunity to bring in
Gershwin and Schoenberg (and many, many others, including Pancho Barnes) as
subsidiary characters, and I pointed out to him that Schoenberg was making
his orchestration at the time when the novel is set. John told me last
night that on the rewrite he's taking my suggestion and will have AS
indicate this specifically in his dialogue. I couldn't be happier.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
her...@yahoo.com
> Then there is Craft's absolutely Toscanini-like direction. Talk about
> no-nonsense, unsentimental Brahms. He simply sweeps through the first
> movement of the piece like a tornado, with the orchestra following
> every step of the way. Then in the finale no orchestra has
> "out-zingaresed" the CSO here.
>
So, a non-brahms Brahms then.
It may be that Craft in his early years was any good as a conductor
(though surely nowhere near Toscanini), but I'm rather sceptical. His
Stravinsky recordings on Koch > Naxos are irredeemably mediocre. The
man has no musicality - which is what I'm getting from the above
description.
Herman
Paul
my good friend Greg Thompson of Casselberry, Florida. I'll look it out
and post it, if anyone's interested. The 'Oscar Levant as detective'
idea sounds interesting.
Paul
makropulos
I wouldn't quite go along with evey particular but yes, the Craft
performance is pretty stunning. TD claims that "most of the other items
in the Great Performances series are far from great", a claim I would
contest - most of them (i.e. more than half) deserve their place in a
Great Performances series, it seems to me. It's odd that the series
isn't available in Canada. I found this CD in New York while I was over
in the US (along with several others in the series, all of which I'm
very pleased to have). They seem to be noticeably more expensive in
Europe, even from places like MDT.
TareeDawg
news:1163796431.9...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
It is not what I am getting, and I'd hardly say that about his latest
Stravinsky and much Schoenberg. Craft's Stravinsky, and Schoenberg
(MusicMasters/Koch, now on Naxos) are meticulous, well played and sung to
say the least, and this precision and steadfastness of Craft's approach is
hardly a defect in Stravinsky. This to me, doesn't indicate a lack of
musicality at all.
And for once, despite the obvious competition from Ancerl and Markevitch in
the Symphony, Craft refuses to allow the ending of Psalm150 end in a hazy
soft mush of romanticism, as is regularly practised with this piece. Craft
is very effective here, and very good. There are scores however, such as the
Apollo suite, where, besides Markevitch's reading on Philips, anyone will be
seen as a relative failure. A lucidity and delicacy of touch is needed in
this piece, and only Markevitch is really convincing to these ears.
Haven't heard Craft's Brahms/Schoenberg so cannot comment.
Ray H
Taree, NSW
Miguel Montfort
> I think I've got that Cziffra Jnr version
> on CD somewhere, courtesy of my good friend
> Greg Thompson of Casselberry, Florida. I'll
> look it out and post it, if anyone's interested.
I’d be most interested! Thank you, Paul.
Miguel Montfort
Paul Ilechko
> It may be that Craft in his early years was any good as a conductor
> (though surely nowhere near Toscanini), but I'm rather sceptical. His
> Stravinsky recordings on Koch > Naxos are irredeemably mediocre. The
> man has no musicality - which is what I'm getting from the above
> description.
I have several of those Stravinsky recording, so I can definitely say
that yours is just one opinion.
david...@aol.com
her...@yahoo.com wrote:
> So, a non-brahms Brahms then.
Au contraire.
> It may be that Craft in his early years was any good as a conductor
> (though surely nowhere near Toscanini), but I'm rather sceptical. His
> Stravinsky recordings on Koch > Naxos are irredeemably mediocre. The
> man has no musicality - which is what I'm getting from the above
> description.
In general, the late Stravinsky series is not remotely Craft at his
best, although the best things in it are extremely good, the
performance of "Abraham and Isaac," for example, unbelievably so. It
would be interesting to know what would have become of Craft the
conductor if he had pursued a career as a professional orchestra
conductor full time. Many of the recordings he made in the 1950's and
1960's are extremely good, despite the parsimony of Columbia records.
The budgets and therefore the time and performing forces granted to
Craft and even Stravinsky were often scandalously inadequate. But I
defy you to show me a recording of Pierrot lunaire on the same level as
Craft's. Of course, it doesn't hurt that he has a miraculously musical
ensemble that includes Israel Baker and Robert Helps.
-david gable
tomdeacon
Since you live in the USA, Bob, I would imagine that this recording
would be available there without much difficulty.
As for "copies", well, you know my feelings about that subject, I
suppose and can imagine my response.
TD
tomdeacon
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> I will note that Cziffra Jr./Budapest Symphony are no slouches when it
> comes to the zingarese finale, though.
I own that recording - on LP, of course - and don't recall it having
the same special qualities of the Craft version. I shall dig it out and
listen to it again.
TD
tomdeacon
her...@yahoo.com wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
>
> > Then there is Craft's absolutely Toscanini-like direction. Talk about
> > no-nonsense, unsentimental Brahms. He simply sweeps through the first
> > movement of the piece like a tornado, with the orchestra following
> > every step of the way. Then in the finale no orchestra has
> > "out-zingaresed" the CSO here.
> >
> So, a non-brahms Brahms then.
Well, only if you are of the opinion that there is one way and only one
way of performing Brahms' music.
In my experience, which runs the gamut from Furtwangler and Weingartner
and Toscanini, through Walter, Van Beinum, Karajan, Haitink et al.,
right up to the present generation of conductors (at least on record)
there would seem to be a wide range of possibilities in this music.
These possibilities may not be open to you, however.
> It may be that Craft in his early years was any good as a conductor
> (though surely nowhere near Toscanini), but I'm rather sceptical.
A good posture to maintain. But I invite you to listen to this
Brahms-Schoenberg. I think you might revise your opinion, even though
you might not actually like the style of his Brahms interpretation.
His
> Stravinsky recordings on Koch > Naxos are irredeemably mediocre.
I don't know these.
> The man has no musicality - which is what I'm getting from the above
> description.
This may be your inference. It is certainly not my implication.
As for your sweeping generalisation, it really doesn't mean anything.
TD
Todd Schurk
I agree with all you wrote about the Craft/Chicago disc Tom. I guess I
was lucky in that I got my copy at Tower for $7.99 or so...never will
you hear an orchestra play with more fire and fun...a real magical
session was captured on that day-thank goodness! Todd
Josep Vilanova
>
> > TDI agree with all you wrote about the Craft/Chicago disc Tom. I guess I
> was lucky in that I got my copy at Tower for $7.99 or so...n
It can be found at a similar price in amazon marketplace
j
Todd Schurk
plus shipping cost of course.
Frank Berger
"Todd Schurk" <patte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163867935.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
It was released in June 2006, widely available in the U.S., and is still in
stock at various on-line vendors.
Also I wonder what "rule" this exception was supposed to have proven?
The Historian
I agree with Mr. Deacon's praise of the recording. I feel unfortunate
that the recent CD issue was my first hearing of the work; now every
other recording will be an also ran.
tomdeacon
Frank Berger wrote:
> Also I wonder what "rule" this exception was supposed to have proven?
Why am I not surprised, Frank? You rarely grasp the obvious.
The "rule" would be the title of the series, "Great Performances",
which is a title for the most part entirely undeserved, regardless of
the opinion of some insular types here who think that Eugene Ormandy
was capable of anything resembling greatness.
No, the series was a marketing concept invented by one Peter Munves
many years ago to flog Columbia's (and then Sony's) back catalogue. The
catalogue did have some gems, few, in fact, and those have wound up in
the series, but the Brahms-Schoenberg Quartet with Robert Craft was
alwayas one of those gems and has been long overlooked in favour of
endless releases of mediocre or average performances by the usual
suspects. Isaac Stern, for one, was never a great violinist in anyone's
opinion other than his own and his claque, which given his nationality,
included most Americans. To say that he was "no Heifetz" is an
understatement. He was aksi "no Grumiaux", "no Oistrakh", "no Kogan",
"no Szeryng", and so on. The list of violinists who were vastly
superior to him is too large to count here. But his each and every
utterance is considered "great" over here.
Hence the "rule".
The release of the Brahms-Schoenberg breaks that rule rather nicely and
I, for one, am glad. That those who put it into general release have
only recently been summarily shown the door is very sad, indeed.
I wonder if Mr. Berger can now comprehend my meaning.
TD
Frank Berger
>
> Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> Also I wonder what "rule" this exception was supposed to have proven?
>
< insult and irrelvancy cut >
The presence of one outsanding release in the set does not, and can not,
"prove the rule" that the set is outstanding or is supposed to be
outstanding. You have misused the expression. The definition and a correct
example from Wilipedia:
A common phrase and form of argument in which the existance of a counter
example to a rule is used to demonstrate the fact that a rule exists.
Example: "Entry is free on Sundays".
The exception for Sunday implies that as a general rule, you have to pay for
entry.
Steve de Mena
> Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> Also I wonder what "rule" this exception was supposed to have proven?
>
> Why am I not surprised, Frank? You rarely grasp the obvious.
>
> The "rule" would be the title of the series, "Great Performances",
> which is a title for the most part entirely undeserved, regardless of
> the opinion of some insular types here who think that Eugene Ormandy
> was capable of anything resembling greatness.
>
IMHO, here is another (the Cello Concerto)r:
Steve
Frank Berger
"Steve de Mena" <ste...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
news:gH58h.7250$Fg....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
A second example still doesn't prove the "rule." It's a misuse of the
expression. See my other post or Wikipedia on "the exception that proves the
rule."
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1163974542.164826.181810
@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I agree with Mr. Deacon's praise of the recording. I feel unfortunate
> that the recent CD issue was my first hearing of the work; now every
> other recording will be an also ran.
It was also my first encounter with the work, too, but back when it was in
one of those 2-LP sets on Columbia Masterworks devoted to Schoenberg's music
as conducted by Craft. I have bought many recordings of it issued since that
time; NOW you can see why I've been going on about this one all along!
Gerard
You seem to be a Wikipedia fanatic.
Using it (when it fits you) as an excuse for not having to try to understand
what others say.
The Historian
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "The Historian" <Spam...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:1163974542.164826.181810
> @k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I agree with Mr. Deacon's praise of the recording. I feel unfortunate
> > that the recent CD issue was my first hearing of the work; now every
> > other recording will be an also ran.
>
> It was also my first encounter with the work, too, but back when it was in
> one of those 2-LP sets on Columbia Masterworks devoted to Schoenberg's music
> as conducted by Craft. I have bought many recordings of it issued since that
> time; NOW you can see why I've been going on about this one all along!
And thank you for doing so. I might never have made the purchase
otherwise.
tomdeacon
Frank Berger wrote:
(insult and irrelevancy cut)
> The exception for Sunday implies that as a general rule, you have to pay for
> entry.
As usual, Frank has been unable to comprehend simple thoughts.
No wonder he's a Repuglican!
TD
tomdeacon
Well, perhaps.
But the Barbirolli/DuPre Elgar still rules the waves. That is a REAL
GROC, or GP, if you prefer.
TD
tomdeacon
Gerard wrote:
> You seem to be a Wikipedia fanatic.
Quelle surprise!
Wikipedia is information at the level Frank can understand. It's an
"Encyclopedia for Dummies"!!!
> Using it (when it fits you) as an excuse for not having to try to understand what others say.
Frank has never understood what others say. It is his stock in trade.
TD
Todd Schurk
Ok Tom...here is a "Great Performances" issue containing a cello
concerto conducted by Ormandy! that has never been surpassed...the
Shosty 1 premier recording with Rostropovich. Coupled with a really
fine Shosty 1st symphony-one of Sony/CBS/RCA/BMG's best ever...and on a
par with the Craft/Brahms/Schoenberg imo. Todd
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> Ok Tom...here is a "Great Performances" issue containing a cello concerto
> conducted by Ormandy! that has never been surpassed...the Shosty 1 premier
> recording with Rostropovich. Coupled with a really fine Shosty 1st
> symphony-one of Sony/CBS/RCA/BMG's best ever...and on a par with the
> Craft/Brahms/Schoenberg imo.
> Todd
I'll endorse that opinion!
Paul
Piano Quartet in Volume 5 of the CBS Schonberg series. Here, by way of
comparison, is the Budapest Symphony Orchestra in the same work,
conducted by Cziffra Junior:
1st movement: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpTmJSxUz4M%3D
2nd movement: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpRUdvpkbWw%3D
3rd: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpRUdp0kBIc%3D
4th: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpRUdgpoUTk%3D
Best wishes & good listening
Paul
Frank Berger
First, of all, if you had any ability to recollect, you would know tat I am
not a Republican. Second, if you don't understand my explanation of why your
use of the phrase, "the exception that proves the rule" is incorrect, it
appears to be YOU who have a comprehension problem. But you are the one who
insists on your own personal definition of the term "anti-semitism," so I am
not surprised.
Frank Berger
"Gerard" <ghen_nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4561684a$0$5020$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Frank Berger wrote:
>> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:1163975090....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Frank Berger wrote:
>> >
>> > > Also I wonder what "rule" this exception was supposed to have
>> > > proven?
>> >
>>
>> < insult and irrelvancy cut >
>>
>> The presence of one outsanding release in the set does not, and can
>> not, "prove the rule" that the set is outstanding or is supposed to be
>> outstanding. You have misused the expression. The definition and a
>> correct example from Wilipedia:
>>
>> A common phrase and form of argument in which the existance of a
>> counter example to a rule is used to demonstrate the fact that a rule
>> exists. Example: "Entry is free on Sundays".
>>
>> The exception for Sunday implies that as a general rule, you have to
>> pay for entry.
>
> You seem to be a Wikipedia fanatic.
I have quoted it several times. Not more. That hardly makes me a fanatic.
And each instance has been non-controversial (or should have been), intended
to clarify some question, not to further a political opinion.
> Using it (when it fits you) as an excuse for not having to try to
> understand
> what others say.
It is obvious that I understood Deacon perfectly, in spite of his misuse of
the expression.
My point, with which you did not disagree, is correct, so what't your real
beef?
tomdeacon
I wonder if you have ever heard the RCA Victor recording of the piece
with Natalia Gutman and Temirkanov.
If you haven't, you should. IF, that is, you can still find a copy of
this very special recording. Rostropovich was, of course, magnificent.
But Temirkanov is fabulous and Gutman no slouch either.
As for Shostakovich Symphony No. 1 surely nobody has outdone Stokowski
in this music. That is a matter of opinion, of course. As are all these
matters.
TD
tomdeacon
Frank Berger wrote:
> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:1164023024....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> > (insult and irrelevancy cut)
> >
> >> The exception for Sunday implies that as a general rule, you have to pay
> >> for
> >> entry.
> >
> > As usual, Frank has been unable to comprehend simple thoughts.
> >
> > No wonder he's a Repuglican!
> >
> > TD
> >
>
> First, of all, if you had any ability to recollect, you would know tat I am
> not a Republican.
Then you're a "faux Democrat" and should be a Repuglican.
TD
Frank Berger
I simply pointed out your misuse of an expression. It was not a personal
attack. There was no reason for you to take it personally. You should have
just said, "Gee, I never thought about that - your're right."
Frank Berger
I have said many times (more than I've cited Wikipedia) that I vote
Libertarian whenever possible. Now you can make a wisecrack about that.
Miguel Montfort
> Like Mr. Tepper, I gfirst encountered the Craft
> version of the Brahms Piano Quartet in Volume 5
> of the CBS Schonberg series. Here, by way of
> comparison, is the Budapest Symphony Orchestra
> in the same work, conducted by Cziffra Junior:
[...]
thank you very much, Paul! I’ve been searching
the original LP for two years now since I first
laid eyes on that absolutely stylish cover ;-)
See: http://murl.se/15484
BTW, what were tracks 01-05?
Thanks again,
Miguel Montfort
Gerard
> "Gerard" <ghen_nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4561684a$0$5020$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> > Frank Berger wrote:
> > > "tomdeacon" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1163975090....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > > >
> > > > Frank Berger wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Also I wonder what "rule" this exception was supposed to have
> > > > > proven?
> > > >
> > >
> > > < insult and irrelvancy cut >
> > >
> > > The presence of one outsanding release in the set does not, and
> > > can not, "prove the rule" that the set is outstanding or is
> > > supposed to be outstanding. You have misused the expression.
> > > The definition and a correct example from Wilipedia:
> > >
> > > A common phrase and form of argument in which the existance of a
> > > counter example to a rule is used to demonstrate the fact that a
> > > rule exists. Example: "Entry is free on Sundays".
> > >
> > > The exception for Sunday implies that as a general rule, you have
> > > to pay for entry.
> >
>
> > You seem to be a Wikipedia fanatic.
>
> I have quoted it several times. Not more. That hardly makes me a
> fanatic.
It does.
> And each instance has been non-controversial (or should have
> been), intended to clarify some question, not to further a political
> opinion.
It is controversial by itself, because it is a selection.
>
> > Using it (when it fits you) as an excuse for not having to try to
> > understand
> > what others say.
>
> It is obvious that I understood Deacon perfectly, in spite of his
> misuse of the expression.
>
> My point, with which you did not disagree, is correct, so what't your
> real beef?
A dictionary almost never and wikipedia never gives a complete set of
definitions or descriptions of the meaning of whatever. So you never can say
"hey, you are wrong and I am right because of what wikipedia says about the
meaning of an word or expression". That's nitpicking with a false sense of
authority.
See wikipedia.
Paul
Ensemble, Virgin label), numbered that way in my own compilation of
Schonberg arrangements. Sorry for any confusion, everyone!
Paul
Richard Schultz
: I have said many times (more than I've cited Wikipedia) that I vote
: Libertarian whenever possible. Now you can make a wisecrack about that.
No comment is necessary.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Frank Berger
Plonk
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> Like Mr. Tepper, I gfirst encountered the Craft version of the Brahms
> Piano Quartet in Volume 5 of the CBS Schonberg series. Here, by way of
> comparison, is the Budapest Symphony Orchestra in the same work,
> conducted by Cziffra Junior:
>
> 1st movement: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpTmJSxUz4M%3D
>
> 2nd movement: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpRUdvpkbWw%3D
>
> 3rd: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpRUdp0kBIc%3D
>
> 4th: http://www.yousendit.com/download/ZpRUdgpoUTk%3D
>
> Best wishes & good listening
Thanks! I'll still be making my own rips to WAVs of course, but these
ought to give an idea of what the recording sounds like.
Steve de Mena
Tom,
This one is available in Canada, and very
reasonable too. If you have not heard it I
recommend it:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycfoz2
Steve
tomdeacon
Where you're concerned, Frank, those words from my pen are completely
unimaginable.
TD
tomdeacon
Miguel Montfort wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>
> > Like Mr. Tepper, I gfirst encountered the Craft
> > version of the Brahms Piano Quartet in Volume 5
> > of the CBS Schonberg series. Here, by way of
> > comparison, is the Budapest Symphony Orchestra
> > in the same work, conducted by Cziffra Junior:
>
> [...]
>
> thank you very much, Paul! I've been searching
> the original LP for two years now since I first
> laid eyes on that absolutely stylish cover ;-)
> See: http://murl.se/15484
Yes. A nice cover photo.
Unfortunately that cigarette in his hand reminds me that he was burned
to death in a house fire.
For all intents and purposes, that tragedy put an end to the career of
his father.
TD
tomdeacon
Not heard it?
You forget, Steve, that I have been around this pasture for longer than
I like to think. I bought that item on LP the month it appeared.
DuPre, good as she is, in one of her more wayward moments, in my
opinion. She was always a taffy-pull kind of musician. I heard her
dozens of times in person. Captivating on the stage. On records, well,
you need to be rather selective. I continue to favour the Barbirolli
version on EMI, which was her first recording of the Elgar, over this
later one. Barenboim was head over heels in love with his wife at this
time and she could to anything she wanted and there's the rub. She
wants to do too much. The "in person" version I heard in Toronto was
unforgetable, but that exists only in my memory, alas. I don't remember
the conductor, but it was probably Seiji Ozawa. Just can't remember.
The vision of Jackie. with a smile on her face right out to the ears,
swinging her priceless cello over the heads of the TSO violin section
is just one of those things one doesn't forget. What followed was just
one of those precious memories.
TD
Miguel Montfort
> Unfortunately that cigarette in his hand
> reminds me that he was burned to death in
> a house fire.
>
> For all intents and purposes, that tragedy
> put an end to the career of his father.
I didn’t know this until I read Bryan Crimp’s
»Postlude« to his edition of Cziffra’s auto-
biography, which can make for a quite depres-
sing read ... I’ve always wondered abour the
identity of an anonymous »idiot critic« who
commented on Cziffra’s 1970s Liszt recordings
»When one plays like this the best thing is
to commit suicide.«
I cherish the thought he might have followed
his lemming instinct.
Much as I think Schönbergs treatment of
Brahms’ op. 25 to be a abomination extra-
ordinaire (and a complete waste of time)
I can’t help but admire Cziffra Jr.’s skill.
Do you know of any other recordings besides
those accompanying his father?
Miguel Montfort
Al Eisner
> I agree with all you wrote about the Craft/Chicago disc Tom. I guess I
> was lucky in that I got my copy at Tower for $7.99 or so...
which is again the Tower store price with their current discount.
--
Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA
Steve de Mena
Sorry, I wasn't sure from your post so thought it
would not hurt to point out this re-issue.
I remember buying the original LP in its original
UK import version (with a gatefold sleeve and
colorized version of the cover picture I believe)
when it was released too. It was not released in
the US until later.
Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> Sorry, I wasn't sure from your post so thought it would not hurt to point
> out this re-issue.
>
> I remember buying the original LP in its original UK import version (with a
> gatefold sleeve and colorized version of the cover picture I believe) when
> it was released too. It was not released in the US until later.
Assuming you're still discussing the Du Pré/Barenboim Elgar Concerto and
"Enigma" Variations on Columbia, I guess I was a sluggard, because I bought
it as soon as it came out in the US.
tomdeacon
Miguel Montfort wrote:
> Much as I think Schönbergs treatment of
> Brahms' op. 25 to be a abomination extra-
> ordinaire (and a complete waste of time)
> I can't help but admire Cziffra Jr.'s skill.
> Do you know of any other recordings besides
> those accompanying his father?
I do believe that was his only conductorial outing for EMI other than
accompanying his father in various concerti.
TD
Miguel Montfort
> I do believe that was his only conductorial
> outing for EMI other than accompanying his
> father in various concerti.
What a shame! Thank you, Tom.
Miguel Montfort
William Sommerwerck
> Much as I think Schönbergs treatment of
> Brahms' op. 25 to be a abomination extra-
> ordinaire (and a complete waste of time)...
He orchestrated it so that it could be performed at general concerts.
Miguel Montfort
> He orchestrated it so that it could be performed
> at general concerts.
If only he had chosen to refrain from doing so.
Miguel Montfort
Todd Schurk
I'm glad he did so...and I'm able to enjoy it along with the original.
It looks like your opinion is a minority at least on this thread...Todd
Miguel Montfort
> I'm glad he did so...and I'm able to enjoy
> it along with the original.
I’m really glad you do. To my ears the re-
working doesn’t work at all, including that
blasted xylophone ...
> It looks like your opinion is a minority at
> least on this thread...
It wouldn’t be the first time, and it won’t
be the last - a minority may be right, and
a majority is always wrong ;-)
Miguel Montfort
tomdeacon
I disagree.
When you hear Robert Craft conduct this piece, you are forced - at
least I am - to accept it as a legitimate exercise in orchestration.
And the players themselves must be absolutely thrilled - especially the
wind and the percussion players - at having some wonderful parts to
play. Schoenberg has written one of the only interesting parts for
xzylophone, for example.
I will admit, however, that in ordinary hands - I recently heard this
performed in Paris by the Strasbourg Orchestra - it seems overlong and
fairly turgid. But not under Craft, which is the reason for my
enthusiasm.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:45632d06$0$30312$9b4e...@newsspool1.arcor-online.net:
> Todd Schurk wrote:
>
>> I'm glad he did so...and I'm able to enjoy it along with the original.
>
> I’m really glad you do. To my ears the re-working doesn’t work at all,
> including that blasted xylophone ...
The use of the occasional tasty xylophone accents is one of my favorite
things about it.
>> It looks like your opinion is a minority at least on this thread...
>
> It wouldn’t be the first time, and it won’t be the last - a minority may
> be right, and a majority is always wrong ;-)
--
A. Brain
I seem to recall that it was not that often recorded
until the Zender recording in the early '80s. I
recall playing that LP for a musician friend and
he was startled by the xylophone parts.
David Hurwitz rates our local band's version on RCA
very highly (Houston SO/Eschenbach). But it seems to be OOP.
I have the Rattle CD, which also seems to be OOP.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:lyJ8h.326438$QZ1.40813@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
Beautifully played, but far too slow for my tastes.
> I have the Rattle CD, which also seems to be OOP.
I think it's been recoupled with something else, but can't recall what.
tomdeacon
A. Brain wrote:
> David Hurwitz rates our local band's version on RCA
> very highly (Houston SO/Eschenbach). But it seems to be OOP.
That's because he probably has never heard the Craft/CSO. It was only
ever available as part of a two-LP set of Schoenberg in Columbia
Record's Schoenberg series.
>
> I have the Rattle CD, which also seems to be OOP.
But with the CBSO I think you can probably forget it. Not a truly
virtuoso ensemble.
Do yourself a favour. Buy the Craft, before those new goons in charge
at Sony/BMG Masterworks decide to delete Mr. Gilbert Hetherwick's
handiwork.
TD
William Sommerwerck
>> at general concerts.
> If only he had chosen to refrain from doing so.
No one is obliged to either perform or listen to the piece. I like it a lot.
Sorry you don't. But I really couldn't care less that it's not to your
taste. Who cares?
William Sommerwerck
> until the Zender recording in the early '80s.
> I recall playing that LP for a musician friend and
> he was startled by the xylophone parts.
There was also a good performance with the Baltimore Symphony conducted by
I-forget-his-name. I heard the same conductor deliver an even better
performance with the Chicago Symphony.
Todd Schurk
Commisiona (sp.?) ...? On Vox/Turnabout perhaps?...too many
recordings,too little memory...
Matthew B. Tepper
Actually, one "m" and two "s", hence Comissiona.
Miguel Montfort
> But I really couldn't care less that it's
> not to your taste.
As I won't care (or hold it against you)
that it is to your taste.
> Who cares?
Who wants to know ;-)
Miguel Montfort
William Sommerwerck
>> conducted by I-forget-his-name. I heard the same conductor deliver
>> an even better performance with the Chicago Symphony.
> Commisiona (sp?)...? On Vox/Turnabout perhaps?... too many
> recordings,too little memory...
Correct. (As an ex-Baltimoron, I have little excuse for forgetting his
name.) It was on MMG (Moss Music Group), the company that then owned Vox.
This work became something of a calling card for Commisiona and the
Baltimore Symphony.
William Sommerwerck
>> not to your taste.
> As I won't care (or hold it against you)
> that it is to your taste.
>> Who cares?
> Who wants to know ;-)
Well, you're the one who raised the issue by expressing your distaste. Don't
complain when it's thrown back in your face.
Miguel Montfort
> Don't complain when it's thrown back
> in your face.
I don't complain, but why would you throw
anything back »in may face«? Did I offend
you be expressing my distaste?
Miguel Montfort
tomdeacon
It is my own experience, Miguel, that many here take the expression of
likes and dislikes as attacks on their person.
I know, it's quite silly, not to say unjustified.
I simply hope you get to hear the Craft version and come back and tell
us if it didn't alter your notion of this arrangement.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
Or even Comissiona.
Miguel Montfort
> I simply hope you get to hear the Craft
> version and come back and tell us if it
> didn't alter your notion of this arrangement.
Alas, it did not. I do, however, enjoy the
CSO’s virtuosity - the playing of the brass
and woodwind sections is simply glorious.
Miguel Montfort
GMS
Miguel Montfort wrote:
I do, however, enjoy the
> CSO's virtuosity
IMHO, this is the key to the greatness of this recording. I've never
given a lot of credit to Craft for this performance. What I DO hear,
however, is the Reiner-honed CSO in full bloom and cutting loose in
spite of what may or may not be happening on the podium. Listen to
Frank Miller's ardent phrasing (accompanied by audible groans) in much
of this perfomance. This is the integrity and phrasing of a great
artist and section leader and I strongly suspect that he, and the rest
of the orchestra, are giving their all because they love this music
whether or not they love this orchestration. Wish I'd been there!!
Gary Stucka
Cellist, Chicago Symphony Orchestra
jrs...@aol.com
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "Todd Schurk" <patte...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:1164176153.3...@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > William Sommerwerck wrote:
> >> > I seem to recall that it was not that often recorded until the Zender
> >> > recording in the early '80s. I recall playing that LP for a musician
> >> > friend and he was startled by the xylophone parts.
> >>
> >> There was also a good performance with the Baltimore Symphony conducted by
> >> I-forget-his-name. I heard the same conductor deliver an even better
> >> performance with the Chicago Symphony.
> >
> > Commisiona (sp.?) ...? On Vox/Turnabout perhaps?...too many recordings,
> > too little memory...
>
> Actually, one "m" and two "s", hence Comissiona.
Alas. With this conductor it is so easy to be guilty of a sin of
omission and a sin of commission all at once.
I liked his recording, by the way. It is the first that I encountered
that convinced me of the worth of the arrangement (with apologies to
Eschenbach and Rattle, both of whom didn't convince me at first).
--Jeff
tomdeacon
Don't we all!
TD
bruckner_1
For the grand sum of $3.96 I downloaded this recording from iTunes. As
a fan of transcriptions of all kinds, I appreciate the recommendation -
you have broadened my horizons.
Best regards, Jeff from WI
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1165968907.875769.66180
@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> For the grand sum of $3.96 I downloaded this recording from iTunes. As
> a fan of transcriptions of all kinds, I appreciate the recommendation -
> you have broadened my horizons.
And for $7.99, you can get his remake with the Philharmonia, once issued on
Koch but now on Naxos, though you have to buy the whole album to get it.
bruckner_1
Thanks for this tip also! I had some downloads to use up on eMusic.com
so I snagged this Naxos recording (by itself) from there.
Jeff from WI