Beethoven - 'Moonlight' Sonata
Roni
Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
200 years ago.
But let us examine it more closely and look at the facts surrounding
the piece, find past and future musical connections and, of course,
compare and choose the best recordings of the sonata.
Read on for detailed analysis of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata, and a
comprehensive recordings review, all with audio examples:
Prai Jei
<1190368968.9...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>:
> Beethoven's "Moonlight sonata", a name coined by German music critic
> Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
> known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
> 200 years ago.
First time I heard it I thought, well we've got a slow movement, a minuet
and trio, and a finale. Whatever happened to the first movement?
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Richard
go on reading it.
e.g. The analysis claims in part:
"The sonata, which is in three movements, as most sonatas of the classical
period...."
This is certainly true of the concerto, but it is by no means true of the
sonata. Several of Beethoven's early sonatas contain four movements.
Also, Assuming the Albinone excerpt he cites is in C# minor, it goes nowhere
near the claimed "subdominant F#" tonality. The F# is merely used as a
passing tone in the bass.
In actuality, the whole question is moot as the excerpt selected appears
to be in the key of G# minor, not C# minor!!
"Roni" <lieb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190368968.9...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Richard
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99B24EAF384...@216.168.3.70...
> Roni <lieb...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be
> typed in news:1190368968.9...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Beethoven's "Moonlight sonata", a name coined by German music critic
> > Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
> > known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
> > 200 years ago.
>
> Gosh, I don't think that any of us here knew that before.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
> My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Tom Deacon is a liar and a scoundrel who cannot hold on to a job.
>
Roni
Thank you for the comments, but I must argue.
> "The sonata, which is in three movements, as most sonatas of the classical
> period...."
>
> This is certainly true of the concerto, but it is by no means true of the
> sonata. Several of Beethoven's early sonatas contain four movements.
It is true that Beethoven and other composers of the classical era had
written sonatas with 4 and sometimes 2 movements, but the vast
majority of classical sonatas had 3 movements, and that is what is
meant by "most".
> Also, Assuming the Albinone excerpt he cites is in C# minor, it goes nowhere
> near the claimed "subdominant F#" tonality. The F# is merely used as a
> passing tone in the bass.
>
> In actuality, the whole question is moot as the excerpt selected appears
> to be in the key of G# minor, not C# minor!!
The "f-sharp" note in the bass refers to the opening bars of
Beethoven's sonata, and not Albinoni's. It is indeed a passing tone in
the bass, and that is why the whole descending bass line is not a
strict Phrygian progression. There is no change of tonality, but the f-
sharp note is a subdominant note in the key of C-sharp minor, while
the harmony is a Neapolitan sixth.
The Albinoni excerpt is in G minor.
So, there are not inconsistencies or untruths. It is merely a question
of reading the text correctly - perhaps the paragraph should be
revised.
Roni
Richard
thought the author was making a direct key parallel, and thereby discounted
the half step. Otherwise, though, I have to disagree. The sonata in the
18th century evolves from a four movement form gradually to a three movement
form and is by no means standard by the Classical period. The concerto, on
the other hand springs to life almost immediately as a three movement genre.
The parallel of the "Phrygian" in the Albinone to the Beethoven simply
isn't there. In order to have a "Phrygian" relationship, there needs to be
a half step movement away from the tonic. In the Albinone example, there is
strictly diatonic movement as follows:
i p.t. III i6/4
II6 I6/4 V i (p.t.=passing tone)
Note there is no chromatic alteration that would be needed for a Phrygian
modality. Also, Beethoven does not use passing tones.
Hence the comparison doesn't work.
"Roni" <lieb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190849743.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Roni
> First of all I apologize for stating the Albinone was in G# minor. I
> thought the author was making a direct key parallel, and thereby discounted
> the half step. Otherwise, though, I have to disagree. The sonata in the
> 18th century evolves from a four movement form gradually to a three movement
> form and is by no means standard by the Classical period. The concerto, on
> the other hand springs to life almost immediately as a three movement genre.
> The parallel of the "Phrygian" in the Albinone to the Beethoven simply
> isn't there. In order to have a "Phrygian" relationship, there needs to be
> a half step movement away from the tonic. In the Albinone example, there is
> strictly diatonic movement as follows:
> i p.t. III i6/4
> II6 I6/4 V i (p.t.=passing tone)
> Note there is no chromatic alteration that would be needed for a Phrygian
> modality. Also, Beethoven does not use passing tones.
> Hence the comparison doesn't work.
I was not referring to the Phrygian mode, but to the Phrygian
progression, the descending tetrachord with intervals tone-tone-
semitone - specifically for this purpose explained in the previous
post: http://classicalmusicblog.com/2007/08/phrygian-progression.html
While it is present in the bass in Albinoni's Adagio - in full, in
Beethoven's opening it isn't - because it detours to subdominant f-
sharp before reaching the target dominant g-sharp - to quote from the
original. Again, we are talking about the bass line, and the
descending Phrygian tetrachord.
Please reconsider your judgement.
Roni
david...@aol.com
> It is true that Beethoven and other composers of the classical era had
> written sonatas with 4 and sometimes 2 movements, but the vast
> majority of classical sonatas had 3 movements, and that is what is
> meant by "most".
Roni is absolutely correct on this point: most late 18th-century
sonatas were indeed in three movements.
-david gable
Richard
I comprehend now what the analyst was getting at. Of course it has
everything to do with the Phrygian mode because of the half step
relationship it presents.
The problem with the example is that the author makes an awkward comparison.
In the Beethoven the half step is in a middle voice whereas in the Albinone
it is in the bass. The gesture is the same, but is certainly not readily
apparent.
"Roni" <lieb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190938298.9...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Michael Haslam
Richard <rva...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1190949117.6...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Beethoven's own 13 previous piano sonatas to the "Moonlight" to realize how
> misleading the original statement is. Of the first thirteen Beethoven
> sonatas, fully nine contain four movements (nos. 1,2,3,4,6,7,11,12,13). Only
> four contain three movements (nos.5,8,9,10)
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the specific period of which
> the analyst was speaking.
A quick look through the last volume of Haydn pf sonatas shows none with
4 movements and a pretty even split between 2 and 3 movements.
--
MJHaslam
Remove accidentals to obtain correct e-address
Roni
> I comprehend now what the analyst was getting at. Of course it has
> everything to do with the Phrygian mode because of the half step
> relationship it presents.
> The problem with the example is that the author makes an awkward comparison.
> In the Beethoven the half step is in a middle voice whereas in the Albinone
> it is in the bass. The gesture is the same, but is certainly not readily
> apparent.
No, Richard. The comparison is of the descending bass lines in both
pieces!
Richard
pieces!"
Descending bass lines have been a standard component of Western classical
music since the beginning of the Baroque era. The author was specifically
discussing a descending Phrygian bass line used similarly in Beethoven's
work and Albinone's.
Beethoven bass line: C# B A F# G# G# C#
Albinone bass line: G F Eb-D C D G
As you may or may not know the Beethoven bass line contains no half steps
and thereby has no Phrygian quality.
The Phrygian quality in the opening bars of the "Moonlight Sonata" is
obtained by the D natural in the third measure which is 1/2 step above the
preceding C# (forming part of a Neapolitan 6th chord -- a typical Phrygian
device.)
The Albinone example obtains it's Phrygian quality from the Eb-D 1/2 step in
the bass.
No, Roni, It's not so simple just to say they both have descending bass
lines.
"Roni" <lieb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191021412.2...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Michael Haslam
> "The comparison is of the descending bass lines in both
> pieces!"
>
> Descending bass lines have been a standard component of Western classical
> music since the beginning of the Baroque era. The author was specifically
> discussing a descending Phrygian bass line used similarly in Beethoven's
> work and Albinone's.
> Beethoven bass line: C# B A F# G# G# C#
> Albinone bass line: G F Eb-D C D G
>
> As you may or may not know the Beethoven bass line contains no half steps
> and thereby has no Phrygian quality.
> The Phrygian quality in the opening bars of the "Moonlight Sonata" is
> obtained by the D natural in the third measure which is 1/2 step above the
> preceding C# (forming part of a Neapolitan 6th chord -- a typical Phrygian
> device.)
>
> The Albinone example obtains it's Phrygian quality from the Eb-D 1/2 step in
> the bass.
>
> No, Roni, It's not so simple just to say they both have descending bass
> lines.
Much of the score of that fine piece of classical music "Les Miserables"
is constructed over descending bass lines.
Peter T. Daniels
> Richard <rval...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > Beethoven bass line: C# B A F# G# G# C#
> > As you may or may not know the Beethoven bass line contains no half steps
> Much of the score of that fine piece of classical music "Les Miserables"
> is constructed over descending bass lines.
Are any of them whole-tone scales, which might tend to give it a
French connection?
Michael Haslam
If only! If you want a whole-tone descending scale you need the Overture
to Russlan & Ludmila.
Roni
> As you may or may not know the Beethoven bass line contains no half steps
> and thereby has no Phrygian quality.
That was the whole point of the discussion:
"the Phrygian progression, (which it, strictly speaking, isn't in this
case, because it detours to subdominant f-sharp before reaching the
target dominant g-sharp)"
What we have in the sonata is not a strict Phrygian progression, but
if you consider the f-sharp a somewhat extra note (because it is heard
only in the second half of the third bar), then the Phrygian
descending bass line is clearly seen. The ear also confirms this -
there is a strong musical similarity in both the Albinoni and
Beethoven openings.
Roni
Michael Haslam
Roni
> The Beethoven doesn't sound remotely baroque to me, Roni.
We are talking about the first 2.5 bars. Beethoven then introduces the
flattened supertonic (d natural) and brings us back, but the Phrygian
progression still does its job.
Anyway, certainly some people will not hear any connection, having
different associations with Baroque music. It is usually true with any
such inter-era comparisons.
Roni
marika
Michael Haslam wrote in message <1i57esk.n3n55d1i3ex3cN%innat...@macflat.com>...
>
>If you want a whole-tone descending scale you need the Overture
>to Russlan & Ludmila.
this reminds me
I owe them a phone call anyway!!
mk5000
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