Failing as a teacher
James Godwin
program (I won't say which one). He was not admitted. In the months
leading up to the audition, we worked diligently through the required
pieces, including making regular test recordings. We began each lesson
with sight reading and scales randomly selected by me.
I'm a modest man, but I can honestly say that this student is fully
qualified for the program in question. He had the audition pieces down
cold. Yet he had several memory lapses during the audition iteslf, all of
them in sections of the music he had totally dominated months back and
never presented problems in lessons. He says he was far more nervous than
he expected, and felt like he simply blacked out from the pressure at
these moments.
My question, then, is this: Have I failed as a teacher? Obviously I
didn't do my part to prepare him for the enormous mental strain of
audition day. This kid is wildly talented and doesn't deserve what has
happened to him. How do you prepare your students for the "psych out"
factor of an important audition?
Jim
Jackson
rightfully take all the credit for a student's success, he can't
rightfully take all the blame for his failure. Trod on.
peterdc
> My question, then, is this: Have I failed as a teacher? Obviously I
> didn't do my part to prepare him for the enormous mental strain of
> audition day. This kid is wildly talented and doesn't deserve what has
> happened to him. How do you prepare your students for the "psych out"
> factor of an important audition?
>
No you have not failed. I have had tons of memory problems when I was
young. It seemed the more important the event the more chance of me
forgetting something.
I'm not a guitar teacher, but from a student's perspective (I've
performed both with guitar and martial arts) I would like to say that;
he needs to relax by not putting so much pressure on himself. The
problem is, he "psyched" himself out because it was so important. For a
young person being in front of so many stiff college professors is
intimidating. The object is to care, but not to care and have fun! Tell
him to "make art" and don't worry about the outcome.
>From my guitar side, tell him to play in front of as many people as
possible, trying to create that high pressure event (will be hard
playing in front of friends).
I might be able to add something from my Martial arts side, he may need
to practice in different settings (from memory). This helped us a lot,
practicing outside with all the noise, people looking, etc., forced us
to concentrate more.
David Schramm
It took me several semesters before I was accepted into the B.M. program
were I went to school for my undergrad work. I was put into the B.A. program
until I was accepted as a B.M. even though I nailed the audition. Sometimes
the professsors make you work hard so you can prove to them that you have
the burning desire and work ethic.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com
Larry Deack
> How do you prepare your students for the "psych out"
> factor of an important audition?
I've found nothing beats many many successful performances with each
one building on the next. How much has your student been performing for
others?
You are not failing as a teacher but you have hit a bump that many of
us hit. If you have no experience with failing on stage yourself then it
may be harder to explain to your student. I find that relating my own
blowouts helps them understand that any failure that doesn't kill you
can make you much better next time.
Most of all I tell them...
Focus on making music. Get into the groove and tell a good story...
always.
sycochkn
just completed. I have played the solos many times alone and in front of
some of the members of the class no problem. Playing in front of the whole
class and for part of my grade I had spots where I just forgot the next
note. I did manage to not have to go backwards in the pieces to continue
though. I did get through it. Last week I started going to a bluegrass jam
to play in front of and with others.
Bob
"James Godwin" <james....@compuserve.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.02....@compuserve.net...
Tony Morris
overcome his nerves, and the way to do it is for him to get his ass
back on the horse and keep performing. He needs to regularly play his
program at every hospital and old folks home within a 25 mile radius.
And act confident. Acting is being.
Also, he needs to look at other options for school. So what if he
didn't get in to a particular school? Studying at a particular school
with a particular teacher is not a make-or-break prerequisite for a
performing career. Besides, there are few things in life more
satisfying than proving someone who underestimated you dead wrong- I
know this from personal experience! Many times over!
Also, it could be a blessing in disguise.
For example: Right after I graduated from UT Austin in 93 with a
master's in guitar, a guitar job opened at the University of Houston.
I went there to apply, audition went well, and in fact, the Dean said
that I had had the best audition of all the applicants. He also told me
that I was also the only one with a master of music degree, the rest
just had bachelor's. He also said something weird that I didn't
understand at the time, but he said that he thought I was going places,
and that he wanted me to keep in touch with him.
I thought I was a shoe-in, but I didn't get the gig. They hired someone
from Houston that they already knew; it wasn't based on merit. Anyway,
I was really disappointed about that, and I was indignant at how unfair
it was. But guess what?- That's how the world works.
But in hindsight, if I had gotten that job and moved to Houston, I
probably wouldn't have done the radio program, probably would have
never played at the White House, probably would have never had people
like Jorge Morel and Kaare Norge dedicate pieces to me, probably would
have not gotten to premiere lost pieces by Castelnuovo-Tedesco and
Germaine Tailleferre, probably would have not met all the amazing
people I have met, probably would not have had all kinds of
opportunities.
It could be that the school he applied for is not the right place for
him. Anyway, my point is this: Experience is what you get when you
didn't get what you wanted. Setbacks and disappointments are
inevitable, and success is far more dependant on perseverance and
resiliency than it is on smooth sailing.
imo,
tony
thomas
>
> My question, then, is this: Have I failed as a teacher?
As long as the students' checks clear, I'd say you're succeeding.
ExOfficial AuContraire
> My question, then, is this: Have I failed as a teacher?<
Jim,
The fact that you have asked this murmuring crew of fools (with a skein
of artistic seriousness and erudition) such a question indicates a sheer
lack of verve, nerve and confidence on your part.
The responces in this thread allowed sentiment to over-come their
better judgement... except one. Those fuzzy warm answers are for
losers. Look at the posters in this thread real close. Only Thomas
spoke the truth... the rest are a bunch of ninnies,imo.
One of those gentle loser's was seen taking the concert stage dragging
a little toilet paper on his shoe! The fact is this.. we must know our
stuff, ice cold. This is the game... know your stuff.
Time to run a full bath of warm water and open a vein.
Then again, all things depend on how we interpret them. If I were you
I'd just call it " Music for One" as long as the checks cleared.
You do understand Rule 6, do you not?
ExOfficial AuContraire
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
John Philip Dimick
Tony Morris wrote:
> Nobody failed at anything. You only fail when you quit. He needs to
> overcome his nerves, and the way to do it is for him to get his ass
> back on the horse and keep performing. He needs to regularly play his
> program at every hospital and old folks home within a 25 mile radius.
> And act confident. Acting is being.
Great points. Great post.
Charlie
on an instrument.
The point of music is to enjoy. I submit to you that the point is not to
pass some sort of test put out there by some 'authority'. It sounds to me
like your student can play. I wouldn't call performing under pressure for a
group who is sitting there with pencils in hand any sort thing but torture.
That is not the point of performing, to please 'the board'. What, pray
tell, is the point of getting into a very prestigious school? Will that
make you enjoy your own playing more? Will that make you a better player?
Will your music sound better? I truly doubt it. It will just inflate your
ego. Focus on playing and enjoying. What a type 'A' culture that has to
judge music as if there is the one way to do it. Most, if not all, truly
great musicians and composers set off on their own path and did not worry
about what the board of regents thought of their playing / composing /
ability. How can one fail at music? There always seems to be those out
there who think they know what good is and they are going to impose it upon
the rest of us. No wonder classical musicians are in the minority.
Charlie
Nate Najar
how to do it and when to do it, but it's up to you to do it." I
believe that. You did everything you could possibly do, short of
performing the audition in his place!
Nate
David Raleigh Arnold
> Recently one of my students auditioned for a major collegiate guitar
> program (I won't say which one). He was not admitted. In the months
> leading up to the audition, we worked diligently through the required
> pieces, including making regular test recordings. We began each lesson
> with sight reading and scales randomly selected by me.
>
> I'm a modest man, but I can honestly say that this student is fully
> qualified for the program in question. He had the audition pieces down
> cold. Yet he had several memory lapses during the audition iteslf, all of
> them in sections of the music he had totally dominated months back and
> never presented problems in lessons. He says he was far more nervous than
> he expected, and felt like he simply blacked out from the pressure at
> these moments.
>
> My question, then, is this: Have I failed as a teacher?
Sure. So what have you learned from it?
Auditions are horrible things. It would have been a good idea for him to
audition for many schools, gigs, competitions, etc... starting with the
ones he was least interested in. Do you know anyone who would consent to
putting your students through a wringer for you? I'm perfectly serious.
You might be able to make some arrangement with another teacher to torment
each others' students with faux auditions when indicated. That about
covers it, don't you think? Press on. daveA
--
Free download of technical exercises worth a lifetime of practice:
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
Repertoire and/or licks are ammunition. Tech is a gun.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
Kent Murdick
that if the student could play the pieces in his head without a guitar,
he wouldn't have had the memory lapses. I know I have a terrible music
memeory and this is what saves me.
SleepyHead
I've had a similar experience to your student - flunked an exam I
really should have passed with flying colours. In my case I'd say that
most of the points people have raised here are applicable - the main
one being: If you want to be a performer don't sit in your bedroom and
practice - go outside and perform because we only get better at what we
practice.
>From what you've said here I don't think you've failed as a teacher - I
didn't blame my teacher when I flunked my exam because it wasn't down
to him on the day and I don't see any reason why your pupil should feel
let down by you. The best thing you can do is pick yourself up, get on
with teaching again, and perhaps get that pupil of yours to do a bit
more public performing.
David Raleigh Arnold
> Nobody failed at anything. You only fail when you quit. He needs to
> overcome his nerves, and the way to do it is for him to get his ass back
> on the horse and keep performing. He needs to regularly play his program
> at every hospital and old folks home within a 25 mile radius. And act
> confident. Acting is being.
No. Of course he should do as you say, but it doesn't attack the
stated question. An audition is quite different from a public
performance. You can be completely inured to nerves before an audience and
still implode at an audition. For all we know, that's what happened. He
needs to practice *auditions*, which is quite a nasty business, unlike
playing for patients, which is a delight.
You gave great advice otherwise. daveA
virtual
James Godwin <james....@compuserve.net> wrote:
I have spent twenty years as part of admission committees at college
level.
Playing an instrument is only part of the requirement. Most students
fail the ear-training or the theory test. There is also the case of the
student who is brilliant in music and has lousy grades everywhere else.
The institution allocates some places for guitar students and takes the
best ones by their own criterions. In many instances, the admission
committee will give preferential treatment to the students who have gone
through the preparatory school of the institution.
Find out what they want. Give them what they want.
Better luck next time
--
Resources to play the guitar for fun and relaxation
Tony Morris
David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
> No. Of course he should do as you say, but it doesn't attack the
> stated question. An audition is quite different from a public
> performance. You can be completely inured to nerves before an audience and
> still implode at an audition. For all we know, that's what happened. He
> needs to practice *auditions*, which is quite a nasty business, unlike
> playing for patients, which is a delight.
>
It's important to build upon a pyramid of successess, rather than
repeating failures, and just doing the same thing over and over again,
hoping for a different result.
The student should start gaining experience and building confidence by
first playing a lot of lower pressure performances, like playing a lot
for family & friends, then for fellow students, then ratcheting it up
to performing the old folks home/hospital circuit, and then mock
auditions and concerts. This works; I've done it.
tm
Kent Murdick
tooly
Hey, consider that for some people, such a thing as you call 'black outs'
are hereditary. That is, some of us, of which I am one, have a propensity
for nervousness that is out of the ordinary when performing in any way in
'front' of other people. It's a brain/nervous system disorder for sure.
"Black outs" as you call them, are a common thing for me, no matter how well
I know a piece, no matter how much I have practiced.
Not to say that your student necessarily has such a disorder, and all people
have varying degrees of 'stage fright' [which is not what I am talking
about...well, at least not in severity], which makes it hard to discern.
Perhaps like dyslexia, where most people just assume the person is slow or
stupid before the malady is understood, such nervous disorders go unobserved
except by the trained eye...and of course, the poor victims who must live
it.
So...may have nothing at all do with your abilities as a teacher.
Think of the fairy tale about the princess and the pea.
Kent Murdick
are hereditary. >>
This may be true but how common are they? I try to focus on the most
probable cause of a problem. If you have a piece memorized visually,
you can be confident that if you make a big error due to nerves, you
will not get lost. If you are confident of not getting lost you
probably won't make that big error in the first place.
Teachers who teach visualization are extremely rare. I doubt there are
more than 10 people on this list who could write down the music of
their repertoire without a guitar in their hands. Most people rely
almost completely on finger memory.
edspy...@yahoo.com
I think the US needs to adopt something like Canada's RCM or UK's ABRSM
testing/learning systems. This will force teachers to ensure their
students study aural/ear training, scales, arpeggios, and learn graded
pieces that would help end students working on pieces above their level
for months and months.
If anyone here finds they are stuck on a study or piece, see if you can
find it listed in RCM or ABRSM. Odds are the piece is at a higher
level than you are currently at.
Ed S.
David Raleigh Arnold
>
> David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
> It's important to build upon a pyramid of successess,
A series will do, but that's right.
> rather than
> repeating failures, and just doing the same thing over and over again,
> hoping for a different result.
>
> The student should start gaining experience and building confidence by
> first playing a lot of lower pressure performances, like playing a lot for
> family & friends, then for fellow students, then ratcheting it up to
> performing the old folks home/hospital circuit, and then mock auditions
> and concerts. This works; I've done it.
Fine. Mike fright is a good thing to get over too. Surely you are not
saying that I was wrong to criticize your first answer, which did not
address auditions or mock auditions? There are is a *qualitative*
difference between performances for audiences and auditions. It's
not quite like ascending a pyramid. daveA
Trento...@gmail.com
etc. There are always options and alternatives; if your student truly
wants it to happen, it will eventually!
;->
I have no experience teaching, but plenty of student experience. In a
perfect world, teachers would have the time/resources, while going
through the mechanics of mastering technique, to get to know each
student's background and personality. If you could have recognized the
student's introverted tendency early on, or at least his tendency to
loose concentration under such circumstances, you could have directed
him through more public performances prior to his audition. My
teacher, Masakazu Ito, encourages his students to prepare for and
perform in guitar society gatherings, including a large Christmas
ensemble performance, etc. There simply is no substitute for the
ultimate test: playing in front of mobs, possibly very critical mobs!
My best performances seem to take place when I am alone in my music
room; as I add people around me, the performance quality usually goes
down hill proportionally! There is no question that the biggest
stumbling block has been my avoidance personality, and it sounds like
your student suffers from the same affliction. I certainly appreciate
and envy those who have somehow mastered, or at least managed well,
this "ultimate" test...
Regards,
Trent
William D Clinger
I have just one thing to add.
If you never fail an audition, then you aren't trying hard enough.
Such disappointments are part of a serious musician's life. So
is dealing with and overcoming those disappointments. Your
student's experience presents his teacher with an opportunity
to teach these things.
Will
Trento...@gmail.com
This statement reminds me of Salvador Dali's final examination at
Madrid's Art Academy, where he stood on stage and informed the school's
evaluation board that they weren't qualified to judge his artistic
ability. The establishement promptly threw him out, of course!
However, that ugly scene did not stop him from creating great
Surrealist compositions just a few years later. Today who remembers
*any* member on that board in Madrid? Nobody!
Tony Morris
Kent Murdick wrote:
>
> Teachers who teach visualization are extremely rare. I doubt there are
> more than 10 people on this list who could write down the music of
> their repertoire without a guitar in their hands. Most people rely
> almost completely on finger memory.
Over the least 20 years, I've heard David Russell say many times, "I
never play a piece in concert that I can't play in my head." He also
sometimes writes out his pieces.
Visualization is a great way to find where the weak memory spots are.
Visualization is an agonizing process at first, just like physical
exercise is , when you haven't done it. Any piece that I play from
memory in concert, I visualize. It's one thing to know your pieces
well, but it quite another to know that you know your pieces well. It's
great for settling nerves a bit, also.
tm
Scott Dineen
> Teachers who teach visualization are extremely rare. I doubt there are
> more than 10 people on this list who could write down the music of
> their repertoire without a guitar in their hands. Most people rely
> almost completely on finger memory.
Kent, do think that visualizing fingers on fretboard (away from the
guitar and with clear knowledge of string/fret/note) is sufficient or
even greatly helpful -- or are you referring specifically to
visualizing the score?
My teacher has had me try some memory-reinforcement techniques and now
uses them to test how well I really know a piece. One clever exercise
is to play a piece starting one or two frets down. Sounds awful but is
a good reality check of head knowledge vs. muscle memory. Another is to
play a piece accurately but just on open strings. When I run through a
piece in my head, I try to see and feel string/fret/note but just hear
tempo, dynamics, and everything else.
Scott
Robert Crim
Good point. Getting a guitarist to look at the music instead of the
hands is an old problem. "Woodshedding" is more common than usually
admitted.
I learned to:
1. read the music
2. work out the fingering and write it on the music (where needed)
3. practice the piece slooooooowwwwwwlllllly with the music
4. practice the piece without the instrument by thinking through it
(visualize)
5. repeat 3 and 4 until the piece is up to tempo
6. by the time you get here the piece is pretty much memorized.
BTW, most lute players don't have a problem visualizing......because
they can't see their hands if the lute is properly positioned. If it
isn't properly positioned, it will slip and fall on the floor.
Robert
rcspross
William D Clinger wrote:
I agree with Will,
I too have only one thing to add,
I would begin having the student select his/ her plan b, c, d, e, etc
schools to apply to. Probably best not to think of them hierarchically
because then the student will simply go through the whole ordeal
again. If he/she thinks of them all as an equal opportunity, then it
really won't matter which school accepts him/her and then he/she
can simply go for it each time with less fear.
Richard Spross
Kent Murdick
guitar and with clear knowledge of string/fret/note) is sufficient or
even greatly helpful -->>>
I'm refering to the above and, of course, hearing it while visualizing
it. I don't memoize a picture of the score although I did that once.
It was kind of inteesting, but it seems to be an extra step.
Kent Murdick
But what if those systems are wrong and don't take into account how the
guitar should be studied for maximum efficiency? Systems like these
tend to halt progress. It's better if a system is adopted naturally
becasue it works not because some committee thinks this is the way
things ought to be.
edspy...@yahoo.com
I would trust a system like ABRSM with hundreds of people agreeing on
standards, with thousands of teachers using the system, with thousands
of people of all ages going through the testing system (worldwide).
Here in the US it seems every individual teacher is a genius and has
developed the best possible way to teach/learn.
I think what you are saying is your system is better than any other
system. Let's say you have designed such a system; then you are the
only one using it. It is then going to waste. And it has not been
evauluated and tested.
ABRSM does not halt progress. It facilitates progress. The process
used by ABRSM, RCM, etc is a natural process since there are so many
people involved setting standards, identifying pieces for grade levels,
providing ongoing review, and thousands of students going through the
system successfully.
Whenever this subject comes up the same "committee" objection comes up
and the topic meanders. Can you point to anything in the ABRSM Guitar
Grade 1 - pieces, aural training, scales & arpeggios, sight reading -
that is not efficient or or might be considered detrimental to
learning?
Ed S.
Kent Murdick
system. >>>
That is correct. My system is an improvement on Shearer's which is the
most efficient system out there.
edspy...@yahoo.com
I was talking about the ABRSM system/process. ABRSM, RCM, TCM do not
dictate a specific teaching method. They use a graded system system to
test a person's ability to: play musically, play specific major and
minor scales and arpeggios, aurally identify musical passages and
changes, and sight read.
The underlying method of study is transparent for the most part, except
when it doesn't prepare a person with knowledge needed to be a
musician, amateur or pro.
Ed S.
Charlie
had composed as a young man in some prestigious french academie when the
proctor told him 'modulate, modulate!' the young Deb's response was, 'why,
when it's so fine right here?' At least that's the gist of the story that
I'd read about the young composer. His music wasn't appreciated at first
either. What others think of your ability is irrelevant, especially if you
believe in what you're doing. If you like it and you believe in what you're
doing, well, what else is there? There are people in this group that can't
stand John William's playing...who cares? lol.
Charlie
<Trento...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149265283.3...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Scott Daughtrey
Scott, have the fortitude to stick with what works for you. It says something
about your own intuitive manner. I can appreciate that you would ask Kent for
his opinion but please consider that it may be a very myopic perspective.
For what it's worth I share the same approach to visualization as yourself and
I don't believe for a moment that visualizing the "score" would be more
advantageous. Think about it: a score is nothing more than an attempt to
convey sound onto paper. If you can ultimately visualize the end result, what
occurs just before the sound leaves the instrument, then you are likely ahead
of the game.
Another Scott
Kent Murdick
You got that right, Scott. One thing though, you will find that you
must keep up the visualization memory as well as play the piece
regularly in order to keep the piece securely memorized for
performance. When I had three hours of repertiore memorized I would
spend an hour a day keeping pieces up by first visualizing and then
playing them. It's a continuous process.
Kent Murdick
dictate a specific teaching method. >>>
Neither do my books, just a general direction in repertoire. There is
the implied technique direction when I start with P stroke, then rest
stroke with i and m , then free stroke, then arpeggios, but I don't
describe how to do these things.
sycochkn
to me. For Bluegrass I seem to be on my own.
Bob
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