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Here's another of my problems.
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Murdick
Sep 27, 2012, 6:16:30 PM9/27/12
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OK, here's another of my right hand problems. I cannot use P in conjunction with the rest of my fingers. More importantly, I cannot play a Pi alternation between,say, the 4th and 2nd strings any faster than I can play a repeated P stroke. Even more specifically, I cannot extend P while i is flexing- that is, P tightens up when i is flexing. I've just created an exercise to work on this, but I don't want to say what that exercise is right now. I want new, unprejudiced ideas. I would also like to talk to people (if there are any) who have had good training but can't play Pi very fast. Berg told me a long time ago that he had a student with exactly this problem. I guess I'm just a rare guy. I like to think of this problem as "the heavy thumb" in that it feels like P weighs about 20 lbs. Thanks in advance.
Alphonsus Jr.
Sep 27, 2012, 7:23:35 PM9/27/12
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On Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:16:30 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> OK, here's another of my right hand problems. I cannot use P in conjunction with the rest of my fingers. More importantly, I cannot play a Pi alternation between,say, the 4th and 2nd strings any faster than I can play a repeated P stroke. Even more specifically, I cannot extend P while i is flexing- that is, P tightens up when i is flexing. I've just created an exercise to work on this, but I don't want to say what that exercise is right now. I want new, unprejudiced ideas. I would also like to talk to people (if there are any) who have had good training but can't play Pi very fast. Berg told me a long time ago that he had a student with exactly this problem. I guess I'm just a rare guy. I like to think of this problem as "the heavy thumb" in that it feels like P weighs about 20 lbs. Thanks in advance.
Have you tried this?:
> OK, here's another of my right hand problems. I cannot use P in conjunction with the rest of my fingers. More importantly, I cannot play a Pi alternation between,say, the 4th and 2nd strings any faster than I can play a repeated P stroke. Even more specifically, I cannot extend P while i is flexing- that is, P tightens up when i is flexing. I've just created an exercise to work on this, but I don't want to say what that exercise is right now. I want new, unprejudiced ideas. I would also like to talk to people (if there are any) who have had good training but can't play Pi very fast. Berg told me a long time ago that he had a student with exactly this problem. I guess I'm just a rare guy. I like to think of this problem as "the heavy thumb" in that it feels like P weighs about 20 lbs. Thanks in advance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW1pDXnSGxI&feature=relmfu
Murdick
Sep 27, 2012, 10:08:12 PM9/27/12
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I'm looking for someone who studied with guys like Tom Poore or Doug or some other good teacher, but has this problem. I have actually run into several people with this "heavy thumb" problem. They were banjo players who had also played with thumb pick.
Alphonsus Jr.
Sep 27, 2012, 11:42:11 PM9/27/12
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Now that I think about it, we could be wrong in assuming your problem is structural. See:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardsiedle/2012/09/26/americans-best-doctor-and-his-miracle-cures-dr-john-e-sarno/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardsiedle/2012/09/26/americans-best-doctor-and-his-miracle-cures-dr-john-e-sarno/
Cactus Wren
Sep 28, 2012, 12:05:45 AM9/28/12
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Kent,
that's too bad. You were working as hard as you could, and didn't know each painful rep was pushing you further away from your goal.
It does seem a pretty rare thing to lose p and i independence. Maybe it's not "TP Disease" but actually "KM Disease" :) I also would question if someone who has lost it could say they have good training. Or if someone who can't play im fast has good training.
It seems to me, just like with FD, that this is a problem with the relationship between you and the guitar. You essentially have created a faulty reflex, a robust one, that reacts to the stimulus of the guitar. The very automaticity you worked so hard to create is now working against your reform attempts. I doubt there is a silver bullet that can undo so much badness, it would be a multi-step process. First remove the stimulus of the guitar and gain conscious control over the movements you will eventually apply to it.
Can you perform the movements in the air, on the tabletop, on your pants leg (denim would be best, but polyester is okay, too). Can you create a "vocabulary" of sensation so that you can "own" each movement and then transfer it to another milieu? (Eduardo Fernandez' book would be helpful) Alternatively, can you then apply that vocabulary of sensation to your ingrained habits? It is important to work with sensation, because any external, goal-oriented activity would likely be co-opted immediately by the bad habits. If so, then you could gradually start to apply the new movements to the guitar or progressively guitar-like situations, and always be on the lookout for the old, bad habits (sensations) to appear.
that's too bad. You were working as hard as you could, and didn't know each painful rep was pushing you further away from your goal.
It does seem a pretty rare thing to lose p and i independence. Maybe it's not "TP Disease" but actually "KM Disease" :) I also would question if someone who has lost it could say they have good training. Or if someone who can't play im fast has good training.
It seems to me, just like with FD, that this is a problem with the relationship between you and the guitar. You essentially have created a faulty reflex, a robust one, that reacts to the stimulus of the guitar. The very automaticity you worked so hard to create is now working against your reform attempts. I doubt there is a silver bullet that can undo so much badness, it would be a multi-step process. First remove the stimulus of the guitar and gain conscious control over the movements you will eventually apply to it.
Can you perform the movements in the air, on the tabletop, on your pants leg (denim would be best, but polyester is okay, too). Can you create a "vocabulary" of sensation so that you can "own" each movement and then transfer it to another milieu? (Eduardo Fernandez' book would be helpful) Alternatively, can you then apply that vocabulary of sensation to your ingrained habits? It is important to work with sensation, because any external, goal-oriented activity would likely be co-opted immediately by the bad habits. If so, then you could gradually start to apply the new movements to the guitar or progressively guitar-like situations, and always be on the lookout for the old, bad habits (sensations) to appear.
Alphonsus Jr.
Sep 28, 2012, 12:20:53 AM9/28/12
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You also assume the problem is structurally rooted. More likely, it's psychosomatic. That is, the problem is real, but it's been created by the brain as a distraction from dealing with unconscious rage. Kent would do well to listen very closely to this interview, ignoring the F word in the title:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5rg39kz8bM&playnext=1&list=PL254979F0792B454F&feature=results_video
And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYIOOURMuS0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5rg39kz8bM&playnext=1&list=PL254979F0792B454F&feature=results_video
And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYIOOURMuS0&feature=related
dsi1
Sep 28, 2012, 6:00:41 AM9/28/12
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On Sep 27, 12:16 pm, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> OK, here's another of my right hand problems. I cannot use P in conjunction with the rest of my fingers. More importantly, I cannot play a Pi alternation between,say, the 4th and 2nd strings any faster than I can play a repeated P stroke. Even more specifically, I cannot extend P while i is flexing- that is, P tightens up when i is flexing. I've just created an exercise to work on this, but I don't want to say what that exercise is right now. I want new, unprejudiced ideas. I would also like to talk to people (if there are any) who have had good training but can't play Pi very fast. Berg told me a long time ago that he had a student with exactly this problem. I guess I'm just a rare guy. I like to think of this problem as "the heavy thumb" in that it feels like P weighs about 20 lbs. Thanks in advance.
I used to play mostly steel string alternating bass tunes back in the
> OK, here's another of my right hand problems. I cannot use P in conjunction with the rest of my fingers. More importantly, I cannot play a Pi alternation between,say, the 4th and 2nd strings any faster than I can play a repeated P stroke. Even more specifically, I cannot extend P while i is flexing- that is, P tightens up when i is flexing. I've just created an exercise to work on this, but I don't want to say what that exercise is right now. I want new, unprejudiced ideas. I would also like to talk to people (if there are any) who have had good training but can't play Pi very fast. Berg told me a long time ago that he had a student with exactly this problem. I guess I'm just a rare guy. I like to think of this problem as "the heavy thumb" in that it feels like P weighs about 20 lbs. Thanks in advance.
70s. I didn't play too much during the 80s and 90s but these days, I
hardly ever play anything in that style and my world is better for it.
You might want to consider playing pieces with less heavy bass action
or you could just learn to use a pick or you could use a pick and
fingers. I've played like that for a while - a very short while.
Murdick
Sep 28, 2012, 8:22:09 AM9/28/12
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Douglas Seth
Sep 28, 2012, 8:47:28 AM9/28/12
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On Sep 27, 6:16 pm, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> OK, here's another of my right hand problems. I cannot use P in conjunction with the rest of my fingers. More importantly, I cannot play a Pi alternation between,say, the 4th and 2nd strings any faster than I can play a repeated P stroke. Even more specifically, I cannot extend P while i is flexing- that is, P tightens up when i is flexing. I've just created an exercise to work on this, but I don't want to say what that exercise is right now. I want new, unprejudiced ideas. I would also like to talk to people (if there are any) who have had good training but can't play Pi very fast. Berg told me a long time ago that he had a student with exactly this problem. I guess I'm just a rare guy. I like to think of this problem as "the heavy thumb" in that it feels like P weighs about 20 lbs. Thanks in advance.
Kent,
> OK, here's another of my right hand problems. I cannot use P in conjunction with the rest of my fingers. More importantly, I cannot play a Pi alternation between,say, the 4th and 2nd strings any faster than I can play a repeated P stroke. Even more specifically, I cannot extend P while i is flexing- that is, P tightens up when i is flexing. I've just created an exercise to work on this, but I don't want to say what that exercise is right now. I want new, unprejudiced ideas. I would also like to talk to people (if there are any) who have had good training but can't play Pi very fast. Berg told me a long time ago that he had a student with exactly this problem. I guess I'm just a rare guy. I like to think of this problem as "the heavy thumb" in that it feels like P weighs about 20 lbs. Thanks in advance.
I have never seen this before and I am nearing 1000 total, lifetime
students. Firstly, I feel a lot of compassion for you. It had to be
terribly frustrating to love the guitar and be shackled with these two
issues. To me, not being able to alternate p-i would be particularly
frustrating because the anatomy of the hand should allow you to easily
do this (as you know). Secondly, to add insult to injury, Alternating
p-i or p-m is an another way to solve the problem of not being able to
play scales fast with i-m. There is a solution to this problem, but it
is completely "out of the box" and would be a completely a departure
from traditional guitar technique. The hybrid technique used by Todd
Kreuzburg would literally solve all of your issues or someone younger
that has them and wants a fix. Todd could play anything with this
technique. He could probably play anything with any technique though!
His videos with this technique are amazing. Yes, I know he isn't doing
it anymore, but he should be!
JPD
Sep 28, 2012, 10:07:02 AM9/28/12
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Fadosolrélamisi
Sep 28, 2012, 10:15:48 AM9/28/12
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He use to post on the old Borneo list ... I remember him not only as a good guitarist ... A well rounded young man!
Douglas Seth
Sep 28, 2012, 11:06:20 AM9/28/12
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flamencos. He probably wanted to prove to them he could do traditional
technique. And- he did. He sounds great with regular technique, but he
lost his gimmick. Todd is an incredible talent.
Cactus Wren
Sep 28, 2012, 11:59:19 AM9/28/12
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Alain,
to be clear, Todd still plays, and just as well, but he gave up the pick for awhile to develop standard technique. He adapted quickly and enjoyed not having to put up with the negativity of close-minded flamencos (who are even more conservative than classicals in how they deal with technique, IMO). Todd has excellent musicality, and would probably sound good on any instrument he decided to learn.
to be clear, Todd still plays, and just as well, but he gave up the pick for awhile to develop standard technique. He adapted quickly and enjoyed not having to put up with the negativity of close-minded flamencos (who are even more conservative than classicals in how they deal with technique, IMO). Todd has excellent musicality, and would probably sound good on any instrument he decided to learn.
gtrman%...@gtempaccount.com
Sep 28, 2012, 4:51:57 PM9/28/12
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On Thursday, September 27, 2012 6:16:30 PM UTC-4, Murdick wrote:
Kent,
Find a practitioner of BEST in your area. They most likely will be able to free up your hand. They most likely will do it after a visit or three.
Charlie
Kent,
Find a practitioner of BEST in your area. They most likely will be able to free up your hand. They most likely will do it after a visit or three.
Charlie
Fadosolrélamisi
Sep 28, 2012, 8:33:18 PM9/28/12
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I'm glad to hear that he still plays! I still remember of his rendition of the Bourrée of the Bach 1006a suite!
Murdick
Sep 29, 2012, 9:04:23 AM9/29/12
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Murdick
Sep 30, 2012, 11:16:01 AM9/30/12
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Cactus Wren
Sep 30, 2012, 1:52:26 PM9/30/12
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Kent, you have never responded to my suggestions. Do you work on these away from the guitar, or do jump right in and try to work it out while playing?
Murdick
Oct 1, 2012, 9:38:16 AM10/1/12
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Steve Freides
Oct 2, 2012, 8:54:33 AM10/2/12
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thread, playing is more about flexion than extension. Try both passive
and active extension movements (call them exercises if you like) for the
fingers individually and together and for the wrist. You sound like you
just need to stretch on one side and strengthen on the other.
If you want me to make a video of what I do, it'll be all of 30 seconds
long, just let me know.
-S-
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