The infamous Chapdelaine Segovia incident
Tashi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
MT
edspy...@yahoo.com
So was Segovia considered a teacher?
Ed S.
Tashi
wrote:
I don't catch your drift Ed.
MT
edspy...@yahoo.com
Well, for instance why should someone use Segovia's fingerings? They
might be the best fingerings but why? 'Cause he said so? They were/
are the only fingerings to use. I would venture that Segovia was not
a teacher but someone who anointed the valid successors to his
throne. I'm not saying his approach is necessarily wrong, just very
old world - a padrone.
Ed S.
socrates
It was Segovia's class. Suppose you were a trainer, a fitness
trainer. You teach the student to hold the bar in such a manner. The
student does the opposite. You repeat, "hold it this way". The
student holds it in the opposite way. As a trainer you grant the
student the benefit of the doubt- maybe he is distracted, I'' try
again. Same result. Another benefit of the doubt- maybe he is
partially deaf. No, same result. Hmm, I don't want to believe that
he is just resisting me out of a bad motive. I blow up- "get out of
my sight". Can you understand what led to the blow up? Not to just
ify it, just to understand it. Being someone's student implies the
willingness to follow, doesn't it?
edspy...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
.
.
> ify it, just to understand it. Being someone's student implies the
> willingness to follow, doesn't it?
Blindly? No.
Ed S.
Dicerous
Socrates,
The teaching profession has evolved. We're aware of different
learning styles now. What's interesting is that this event had little
effect on Michael's career. Ed is right, the teacher is supposed to
give good reasons for his ideas. That's in fact a major difference
between philosophy and pedantry: the creation of concepts. I've seen
Segovia's masterclasses and they fail in this respect. Segovia nor
any teacher is entitled to say "i like portemento" and expect any
learning to take place. Michael's little interview afterwards wasn't
necessary at all; it showed a lot of courage though. I've never seen
Segovia ever tell a joke; Bream on the other hand knows how to laugh
about things. I'd rather have studied with Bream.
David
Tashi
If only it happened as you describe in your little analogy. There was
very little constructive dialoge going on, on Segovia's part. Michael
also was not Segovia's student, a master class is something entirely
different. Michael was trained and raised in a different school and
different time than Segovia. Segovia was wrong for not understanding
this.
I thought Michael's insights were very well thoughtfull and quite
generiuos to Segovia. Also, this master class took place with an
audiance of 300 elite guitarists.
The myth that was prepetuated for 20 years was Michael was defiant, I
think this video puts that myth to rest. I see Segovia as a ridgid
cantaceruos son of a bitch.
MT
Tony Morris
Segovia wasn't really a teacher, he only showed people his own
approach, and tried to create carbon copies of himself. "My way or the
highway".
Now contrast Segovia to someone, like Nadia Boulanger, who was a
phenonmenally talented and successful teacher. She was composition
teacher to Aaron Copland, Bernstein, Elliot Carter, Phillip Glass,
Piazzolla, Burt Bacharach, Quincy Jones, Egberto Gismonti, David
Diamond, and many others. None of those people sound alike or sound
like her compositions. Now that's a great teacher.
I know of another guitarist in that very same 1981 Segovia USC class
who practiced playing along with Segovia's recordings beforehand so
that he could mimic his approach. It paid off for him; Segovia loved
it, and wrote him a very nice quote for his bio, saying something
like, "one of the most brilliant guitarists of our times", or
something like that.
tm
socrates
How about to try what the teacher suggest?
socrates
>
> If only it happened as you describe in your little analogy. There was
> very little constructive dialoge going on, on Segovia's part. Michael
> also was not Segovia's student, a master class is something entirely
> different. Michael was trained and raised in a different school and
> different time than Segovia. Segovia was wrong for not understanding
> this.
>
> I thought Michael's insights were very well thoughtfull and quite
> generiuos to Segovia. Also, this master class took place with an
> audiance of 300 elite guitarists.
>
> The myth that was prepetuated for 20 years was Michael was defiant, I
> think this video puts that myth to rest. I see Segovia as a ridgid
> cantaceruos son of a bitch.
> MT
No, I didn't mean that it happened like that in some equivalent
manner. The analogy was meant to point out the frustration that a
teacher can have if a student doesn't follow.
socrates
I wouldn't say that he was defiant either. But "old school" and "new
school" met head on. Perhaps we can have mercy on both sides.
edspy...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
And Segovia suggested what? The only thing he said outright was to
dismiss Michael.
socrates
No, that was '86- I know, I was there!
Lutemann
I have to say that Chapdelaine was wrong. His playing is more
sensitive than Segovia's IMO. Segovia tends to chop up phrases and he
relies heavily on a big rest stroke for tone. Chapdelaine's tone is
overall better than Segoivia's and his conception of the music more
advanced.
socrates
He probably was of the old school "emulation" manner of teacher.
Tashi
David, I've spoken to Michael at lenght about this incident over
the years. While Michael is one of the most gifted and talented
guitarists I know, he has a career baised on the talents of his own
making. I think Michael feels his career would have been better had
this not happened, and he was somewhat black listed by the
mainstream.
I remember meeting Michael right before his ''Segovia Incident".
After I had heard what went down, I told him he would end up being
more famous than the rest of the players in the class. Damn I hate it
when I'm always right!
MT
Tashi
What's your full name Robert?
MT
Tashi
Robert Bluestone?
MT
John Smith
news:1181677741....@r19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Who said anything about "blindly"?
edspy...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
.
> He probably was of the old school "emulation" manner of teacher.
I agree and I think bringing some of that approach forward might work
for us. Bring back a little rote memorization, maybe "learn these
scales because I said so", "if it was good enough for my teacher it's
good enough for you", "and what is wrong with rest stroke".
Ed S.
edspy...@yahoo.com
> <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Me!
Ed S.
edspy...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I saw Michael at the 2005 Stetson workshop and his playing was
incredible. His arrangements of pop hits seems like a throw-aways yet
they take a huge amount arranging and big technique chops. Somehow
you hear the entire song in the arrangement for solo guitar. I talked
to him for maybe a minute after his concert and he was gracious and
interested.
Ed S.
socrates
So when one takes a lesson, does there have to be a conference about
each thing that the teacher assigns? Isn't the student trusting that
the teacher has something to impart?
enp...@cox.net
Which is something Chapdelaine demonstrates beautifully. He took that
awful myopic rudeness humbly and graciously and turned it into a
learning opportunity. No wonder he's such a great artist.
John Philip Dimick
I came to similar conclusions about teacher/student relationships when
I was taking lessons from Rey de la Torre. Rey would show me how he
wanted me to play a Sor study, for instance, but I would take it home
and make "improvements" on his ideas. Then the next week I'd come back
and demonstrate my improvements. After a few lessons, though, he said
to me something like, "I do not wish to be taught guitar by you." I
don't remember the exact words; probably because I was a little
shocked.
I went home and thought all week about what he'd said. I finally
decided that I was taking lessons to learn what Rey wanted to teach. I
returned to lessons with the idea of absorbing everything I could,
thinking that that was probably the best way to get the most out of
the opportunity I was enjoying.
I later used the same idea in my own teaching. I explained to new
students that I expected them, during the time they were taking
lessons with me, to learn what I was teaching -- even if they thought
they had better ideas. I explained that there would be times when
they'd be sure they were right while I was was wrong, and I allowed
that sometimes they'd probably actually BE right and I'd be wrong, but
that in such cases it was probably a good idea to keep their
improvements to themselves, just as I had done with Rey.
Isn't it obvious that the best way to learn from a new teacher is to
do things the teacher's way while you are studying with him? Learn
what they have to offer? (This would apply to Boulanger as well as to
Segovia. If Boulanger had a wide open "do your own thing" approach to
teaching, then that is still Her Way and you do it Her Way while you
are with her.)
After all, this doesn't mean that you are subscribing to the teacher's
Way for the rest of your life.
I think Segovia was dead right to insist on his own fingerings. The
video suggests that Chapdelaine had changed more than just a few of
the fingerings and ideas; that there had been a pretty extensive
reworking.
If you ask me, the best attitude for the students in the Segovia
Master Classes to have taken students would have been this: they were
there to learn what Segovia had to teach. That's they way he taught.
Chapdelaine would have done better to hit the ball where it was
pitched.
Nicodemus
wrote:
> I'm not saying his approach is necessarily wrong, just very
> old world - a padrone.
Chronological snobbery rears its ugly head yet again.
Nicodemus
> The teaching profession has evolved.
Chronological snobbery rears its ugly head yet again.
In truth, teaching has devolved; e.g., self-esteem building is now
paramount. To say this is not itself chronological snobbery, since cs
can occur only from the standpoint of the present looking back on the
past from a supposedly Olympian plateau, from the standpoint of
"progress."
socrates
Maybe he realized that Segovia had something to share that was
valuable. Otherwise, why study with a teacher?
Steven Bornfeld
> After twenty years of rumor, here's what really happened.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>
> MT
>
Thanks for posting this, Michael.
This is absolutely riveting for me. How old was Chapdelaine then, 20?
What remarkable poise for such a young man. How can anything have
prepared him for this experience?
The interview seems to me to be his headstrong self-confidence battling
with his desire to put a positive stamp on this--with, if I'm not wrong,
hurt and rage bubbling beneath the surface.
Everything I've ever read about him tells me he's not only a super
talent, but a super-nice guy. Here we see him trying to paint what I at
more than twice the age would doubtless have seen as a public
humiliation as a positive experience. Incredible.
I don't altogether blame Segovia either--it was a different age, and
our secular gods were expected to act--god-like.
Steve
Nicodemus
>I see Segovia as a ridgid [sic] cantaceruos [sic] son of a bitch.
Philistine ingrate, you wouldn't be making or playing guitars if not
for Segovia. You're not worthy to lick his boots.
Raptor
looking for smoke and fire and a rocket lifting into space with a
great roar. And if they see and hear this, they assume all is well.
But to the trained technicians in mission control, it's a different
story. They're watching the rocket's trajectory because they know if
the rocket is off course by one degree, early corrections will be
necessary to avoid the margin for error being exceeded beyond which
the ship's capacity for correction. Small, gentle corrections are
much easier than major, later ones.
Regardless of what one thinks of Segovia as a teacher, he obviously
believed he saw and/or heard Michael starting down a path he didn't
think would get him where he needed to go or be. Michael, if his
interview was sincere, believed the manner in which Segovia dealt with
him was exactly what he needed in order to find his way again - or at
least Segovia's way - which presumably is why Michael wanted to play
for him in the first place.
When I assume the posture of a student, there are three questions I
keep before me: (1) where do I want to go; (2) what do I need to get
there; and (3) how will I know when I've arrived. The best teachers
I've had, and that includes music teachers, have helped me with all
three of these. The ones who could not, or would not, I fired. One
fired me as a student, first. I deserved it.
The only thing that was lost in Segovia's curt dismissal of Michael
that day was the opportunity to hear what Michael's music had to say
about him. Segovia obviously had a more important agenda for that
"lesson" and it would appear Michael learned it, and learned it well.
Both men had/have huge talent and outsized egos, but also, great
passion. And I supsect, both knew it.
mark
Steven Bornfeld
> After twenty years of rumor, here's what really happened.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>
> MT
>
BTW, there was a thread yesterday over at rmmgj titled "the right
taecher" (sic) with some insights as to the fit of teacher and student.
Not oriented to the master class obviously, but interesting nonetheless.
Steve
Steven Bornfeld
Perhaps refingering the piece was hubris; but when I think of even what
little I know of Chapdelaine, "outsized ego" is not the first thing that
comes to mind--rollerblades or not.
Steve
Nicodemus
> So when one takes a lesson, does there have to be a conference about
> each thing that the teacher assigns? Isn't the student trusting that
> the teacher has something to impart.
To be taught, one must first be teachable. Sadly, the radical
individualism of modernity's dictatorship of relativism has eroded
docility, thus legions are trapped in the prisons of their egos and
now have the gall to say such things as "I see Segovia as a ridgid
[sic] cantaceruos [sic] son of a bitch." No wonder Tashi and Raptor
get along swimmingly.
For the few here who might still be teachable, see: http://tinyurl.com/m54j5
This is actually Ch. 3 of this excellent book: http://tinyurl.com/2sq9cf
Tashi was right that MC handled it most graciously. He was most
docile. (Modernists: "docile" is not a bad word - nor is "old").
Raptor
tantrum in front of complete strangers at a shop in Washington, D.C.
over a matter of little consequence. He behaved badly and should have
been ashamed of himself. In that moment, a man I considered a hero
managed only to impress upon me all have feet of clay sometimes. I
don't know that I'd call him a SOB. Maybe just human.
By the way, Michael and I are very, very different men. And I esteem
the differences.
mark
guitar_god
> After twenty years of rumor, here's what really happened.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>
> MT
>
Tashi
Phylodermus, if you could for one moment shed your fixation, and
attachment to authority figures, you might come to realize there were
many, many guitarists in the world who were worthy of Segovia's
crown. Today, they manifest as 14 year old kids.
Chapdelaine, in my opinion is more talented than Segovia. Segovia,
however more comfortable masquerading as dictator than most. Segovia
is a very very sad human being.
John Williams clearly didn't like Segovia. However, both
Chapdelaine, and Williams, have a great deal in common, they both
speak well of the man, far more more than Segovia would have done if
he were in their shoes.
BTW, I see Segovia took the opportunity to degrade both Tarrega and
Pujol, and their students, on Michael's time. Nice guy!
MT
GuitarsWeB
Ed, you mean,the fact that they were "pop" songs, it was a waste of
time to be arranging them; beneath a classical player of high esteem?
Or, did I take your statement incorrectly?
Paul McGuffin, Green Valley, Arizona
Tashi
Yea, and you would still be a headbanging dope smoking fuck-up.
Recovery is a bitch isn't it? One can repair the crack in the vase,
but it will forever be visible.
The only reason Segovia got where he got was because of all the people
he trampled on!
BTW, I've NEVER bought a Segovia recording in my life! The ones I
have were all given to me.
MT
fol...@yahoo.com
I think for Segovia , Llobet etc.. fingerings and pitch choices in
transcribing and editing go hand in hand . So, if one changes the
fingering , one is fundamentally changing the transcription, even
destroying it. if you change certian fingerings without knowing why
Segovia did what he did, you might as well make an entirely new
transcription.
I also think that the fingering approach of Segovia, LLobet,
Oyanguren, Tarrega is very interesting , worth studying in detail.
There is alot of complexity there. What Llobet does to get color out
of the guitar is fantastic, almost expressionistic in its intensity.
Same is true for Segovia. And Oyanguren in his best playing. These
days, as the playing level is getting higher physically, it is also
getting blanched... less complexity and texture to the sound.
BTW, I played Segovia's transcription of Majorca for the Segovia class
in '87 and he was very nice... a good lesson. When he asked me to play
something else, I made the mistake of playing Barrueco's version of
Sevilla... Segovia was not happy!
Incidentally, in the '82 a guitarist friend of mine played Ponce's
sonata 3 for Segovia and changed ALL of the fingerings (this is before
the class proper) and Segovia kicked him out and did not let him
participate.
That guy quit guitar shortly after and just won the biggest
composition prize on the planet -$200,000.00
He is now in the top tier of american composers.
I used to think of this story as an indictment of Segovi'a rudeness
but perhaps Segovia's instincts were right and indeed this guy's
talent fell elsewhere and only Segovia saw it..
mark delpriora
Comanc...@hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 2:51 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 12, 2:23 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 12, 12:18 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
> very little constructive dialoge going on, on Segovia's part. Michael
> also was not Segovia's student, a master class is something entirely
> different. Michael was trained and raised in a different school and
> different time than Segovia. Segovia was wrong for not understanding
> this.
>
> I thought Michael's insights were very well thoughtfull and quite
> generiuos to Segovia. Also, this master class took place with an
> audiance of 300 elite guitarists.
>
> The myth that was prepetuated for 20 years was Michael was defiant, I
> think this video puts that myth to rest. I see Segovia as a ridgid
> cantaceruos son of a bitch.
> MT-<
That was interesting. I heard about this half-a-world-away from a
guitarist very close to Segovia. This was the first time I saw it for
myself. More interesting than what was said was the unconscious and
non-verbal communication sub-text.
Keep in mind a few things.
A. Segovia had a pre-audition bio on each student before they
performed.
B. It was only a few weeks ago that Angelo wrote: "There is a story
going around in Andalucia which has never been supported by documental
evidence, but which is insistent nevertheless - telling that Andrés
was the illegittimate son of
Paco de Lucena."
C. Observe Segovia when teaching any female he found interesting..he
was leaning a bit forward, guitar in hand....often unconsciously
fingering the guitar to no particular effect.
I heard that same story, in a bit more detail, 30 something years
ago. Perhaps Angelo forgot to mention Segovia was born next door to a
guitar shop. That Paco de Lucena might have been his father could
account for why Segovia's own father
destroyed his first guitars. I'm reminded of how these things were
sometimes explained. The apple doen't fall far from the tree, who
knows what happens behind closed doors and lastly in this case, Love
me, love my dog.
Remember what John Williams said:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.guitar/browse_thread/thread/8dab8c41f7d3735e/84802901c50e123b?lnk=gst&q=Segovia%27s+mother&rnum=8&hl=en#84802901c50e123b
In summary, Segovia was trying to break M.C.'s rhythm and M.C. didn't
allow that to happen.
Why.... well it was just explained, Segovia was a bastard!
Comanc...@hotmail.com
> I know of another guitarist in that very same 1981 Segovia USC class....
Was that the same friend who told you about that Texas Hill Country
Cougar?
Nicodemus
> Segovia is a very very sad human being.
Has it at all occurred to you that perhaps you may be the very very
sad human being? I ask this sincerely.
Nicodemus
> ...it was a waste of time to be arranging them; beneath a classical player of high esteem?
Exactly right. Spurn the demotic.
Nicodemus
> The only reason Segovia got where he got was because of all the people
> he trampled on!
The only reason, eh? Kindly prove your charge.
The truth is that you don't like Segovia because he was aristocratic
rather than an egalitarian, because he believed in orders of rank, the
hierarchy of reality. All of this is a grave insult to today's
militant mediocrity, which loves nothing more than to cut down the
highest stalks.
Nicodermus
> On Jun 12, 1:50 pm, Dicerous <Dicer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The teaching profession has evolved. We're aware of different
> > learning styles now. What's interesting is that this event had little
> > effect on Michael's career.
> > David
>
> David, I've spoken to Michael at lenght about this incident over
> the years. While Michael is one of the most gifted and talented
> guitarists I know, he has a career baised on the talents of his own
> making. I think Michael feels his career would have been better had
> this not happened, and he was somewhat black listed by the
> mainstream.
>
> I remember meeting Michael right before his ''Segovia Incident".
> After I had heard what went down, I told him he would end up being
> more famous than the rest of the players in the class. Damn I hate it
> when I'm always right!
> MT- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
What did he really think about it at the time, with out a camera
shoved in his face. That was hard to watch.
It would be an interesting list: People dismissed by Segovia who went
on to make a career out of guitar.
Carlos Barrientos
> On Jun 12, 3:00 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>> very little constructive dialoge going on, on Segovia's part. Michael
>> also was not Segovia's student, a master class is something entirely
>> different. Michael was trained and raised in a different school and
>> different time than Segovia. Segovia was wrong for not understanding
>> this.
>>
>> I thought Michael's insights were very well thoughtfull and quite
>> generiuos to Segovia. Also, this master class took place with an
>> audiance of 300 elite guitarists.
>>
>> The myth that was prepetuated for 20 years was Michael was defiant, I
>> think this video puts that myth to rest. I see Segovia as a ridgid
>> cantaceruos son of a bitch.
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> thinks about it now. Does his little interview under duress
> accurately reflect his feelings at the time? It was a mortal sin to
> publicly criticize Segovia back then.
> Segovia did that to several people who didn't use his fingerings. It
> would make an interesting list: people dismissed by Segovia who went
> on to make a career
>
Asked and answered in this book... 'twas a good read on a flight to and
from the Virgin Islands:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?cart=33389244361663462&item=5263262
De Camara
It is so amazing to see Segovia live in such infamy.
Had he only lived longer to upset more people.
Just imagine if he was a weak kneed nice guy.
Carry on
yarnmarke...@gmail.com
A greater tragedy is when the highest stalks cut themselves down so
they'll plummet to the safety and security of mediocrity. They're
afraid of falling short of their own standards of perfection, so they
simply opt out. Who is John Galt?
That's a far greater insult, Nicodemus.
Regards,
Deborah
Larry Deack
> That guy quit guitar shortly after and just won the biggest
> composition prize on the planet -$200,000.00
> He is now in the top tier of american composers.
The top tier prize is $200k???
That is so pathetic.
The CEO of a Standard & Poor's 500 company made on average $14.8
million in total compensation in 2006.
The average baseball player's salary is over 2.5 million.
We vote with our dollars. We obviously don't think we need composers
as much as we need lots of baseball players and big corporate bosses.
Nicodermus
Hence he robbed the world of Barios for 40 years
Carlos Barrientos
One has to simply observe his behaviour to and about Nitsuga Mangore.
Speaks volumes if you know "lohzzz ezzzpagnolezzz..."
Knowhattamean, Vern?
C
Carl Dempster
put down to good graces. Sitting there trying to rationalize AS's bizarre
behavior, he reminds me of someone from the People's Temple.
Nicodemus
wrote:
> I think Segovia was dead right to insist on his own fingerings. The
> video suggests that Chapdelaine had changed more than just a few of
> the fingerings and ideas; that there had been a pretty extensive
> reworking.
Yes. We've heard much here of Segovia's supposed arrogance, but what
of the extraordinary arrogance of MC, who was a mere upstart in
comparison to Segovia? Just think of it from Segovia's perspective:
"I've dedicated my life to the classical guitar for over 70 years now.
I've traveled the world many times in its service. I raised it from
the salon to the concert hall. It's likely that this person in front
of me wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for me. I've worked hard
in fingering this piece. Yet this young upstart believes that his
judgment is superior to mine. And now he's publicly insulting me by
playing this right in front of my face and in front of this crowd.
Yes, get out!"
Nicodemus
> It would be an interesting list: People dismissed by Segovia who went
> on to make a career out of guitar.
Most likely this proves little more than the eternal truth that the
mob has bad taste. Thus, for example, the Beatles and their ilk are
hailed as geniuses.
Nicodermus
wrote:
> I'm surprised by MC's comments in the follow-up interview, which some have
> put down to good graces. Sitting there trying to rationalize AS's bizarre
> behavior, he reminds me of someone from the People's Temple.
My reaction. too. It was a bit that way back then though, wasn't it?
Tashi
This isn't the Army Dickoramus, it's art. I do believe people of
moderate ability rise to great heights, while they trample down on
others. It's a dog eat dog world out there. Segovia managed to be top
dog.
The reason I don't care for Segovia, is because I was brought up on
a steady diet of Williams and Bream. By the time I paid any attention
at all to Top Dog, I had already formed good healthy habits in musical
taste. I've said it before I don't worship guitar heroes!
MT
Nicodermus
Tashi
There is nothing sincere existing within your pathetic soul, other
than ignorant contempt.
MT
dsi1
> On Jun 12, 1:00 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I see Segovia as a ridgid [sic] cantaceruos [sic] son of a bitch.
>
>
> Philistine ingrate, you wouldn't be making or playing guitars if not
> for Segovia. You're not worthy to lick his boots.
>
Saracen Pig! You probably think of yourself as most worthy to clean
Segovia's boots with your tongue but you don't have to brag.
Good thing Segovia is not giving classes in our present day as he's
probably learn cute new American terms like "getting your ass capped" or
"9mm-ed." OTOH, it could have been an off day of the maestro - he was
probably forced to drink crap American coffee and maybe there was a lack
of beautiful 70's American babes with big hair signed up for the class.
I can dig that.
:-)
Carlos Barrientos
That's right, how sad when the lion has lost his teeth... and the young
ones begin to circle... happens to all of us...
Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night
By Dylan Thomas
"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
etc...
--
Carlos Barrientos <br>
"mailto:ca...@sprintmail.com"<br>
Phone: (512) - 218 - 8322<br>
Larry Deack
> Jeez, Larry, you're catching on.
Thanks. I try to keep up.
"Professors are so petty because the stakes are so low."
-an old academic aphorism
Nicodemus
> This isn't the Army Dickoramus, it's art. I do believe people of
> moderate ability rise to great heights, while they trample down on
> others. It's a dog eat dog world out there. Segovia managed to be top
> dog.
>
> The reason I don't care for Segovia, is because I was brought up on
> a steady diet of Williams and Bream. By the time I paid any attention
> at all to Top Dog, I had already formed good healthy habits in musical
> taste. I've said it before I don't worship guitar heroes!
> MT
We'll ignore, for the moment, your taste for Nirvana and their vulgar
ilk.
All your talk of dogs reminds me of something in Benedict XVI's new
book, Jesus of Nazareth (p. xii):
"If you read a number of these reconstructions one after the other,
you see at once that far from uncovering an icon that has become
obscured over time, they are much more like photographs of their
authors and the ideals they hold."
Nicodemus
> My reaction. too. It was a bit that way back then though, wasn't it?
Chronological snobbery once again. Amazing!
Steven Bornfeld
> I think for Segovia , Llobet etc.. fingerings and pitch choices in
> transcribing and editing go hand in hand . So, if one changes the
> fingering , one is fundamentally changing the transcription, even
> destroying it. if you change certian fingerings without knowing why
> Segovia did what he did, you might as well make an entirely new
> transcription.
>
> I also think that the fingering approach of Segovia, LLobet,
> Oyanguren, Tarrega is very interesting , worth studying in detail.
> There is alot of complexity there. What Llobet does to get color out
> of the guitar is fantastic, almost expressionistic in its intensity.
> Same is true for Segovia. And Oyanguren in his best playing. These
> days, as the playing level is getting higher physically, it is also
> getting blanched... less complexity and texture to the sound.
>
> BTW, I played Segovia's transcription of Majorca for the Segovia class
> in '87 and he was very nice... a good lesson. When he asked me to play
> something else, I made the mistake of playing Barrueco's version of
> Sevilla... Segovia was not happy!
> Incidentally, in the '82 a guitarist friend of mine played Ponce's
> sonata 3 for Segovia and changed ALL of the fingerings (this is before
> the class proper) and Segovia kicked him out and did not let him
> participate.
>
> That guy quit guitar shortly after and just won the biggest
> composition prize on the planet -$200,000.00
> He is now in the top tier of american composers.
>
> but perhaps Segovia's instincts were right and indeed this guy's
> talent fell elsewhere and only Segovia saw it..
>
>
> mark delpriora
>
Yeah, sure. ;-)
Great story!
Steve
Jez
"Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:ADGbi.3634$tb6....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Indeed, I was wondering what kinda fit he would throw if someone had turned
up and played a Barrios piece.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
"Culture and Ideology are not your friends. Culture is the greatest barrier
to your enlightenment, your education, and your decency." - Terence McKenna
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society."- Krishnamurti
Nicodermus
> BTW, I see Segovia took the opportunity to degrade both Tarrega and
> Pujol, and their students, on Michael's time. Nice guy!
> MT- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
More chronological snobbery.
fol...@yahoo.com
I wouldn't blame that entirely on Segovia. When Williams recorded the
first Barrios record I asked Rolando V. Blain if he heard of Barrios
and he said that HIS teacher, Oyanguren ( who was a friend of
Barrios ) used to get letters from Barrios all the time. Oyanguren
would read the letters to the young Rolando. Apparently, Barrios
wanted to come to New York.
He never got here.
Mark
GuitarsWeB
> On Jun 12, 4:21 pm, GuitarsWeB <Guitars...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > ...it was a waste of time to be arranging them; beneath a classical player of high esteem?
>
> Exactly right. Spurn the demotic.
So, let me get this perfectly clear. Classical players and arrangers
should not be lowering there self to this type of music,correct? And,
if correct,why? There have been some beautiful "pop" music written. I
have a number of great arrangements of pop songs by great classical
players.
Point being, unless you plan on being strictly a concert classical
guitarist, you need a repertoire of different types of music...if you
plan on making a living, playing the guitar. Maybe I'm off base here.
Paul McGuffin
Nicodermus
Neither did la Cathedreal. I might have done the same thing if I was
Segovia, shove that composition in my back pocket. Barios was a
simple peasant whose talent obviously eclipsed Segovia's. So much for
another of Jackson's warped theories
Carlos Barrientos
Lutemann
> On Jun 12, 2:51 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 2:23 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 12, 12:18 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 12, 1:34 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > After twenty years of rumor, here's what really happened.
>
> > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>
> > > > > MT
>
>
> > > > Ed S.
>
> > > I don't catch your drift Ed.
> > > MT
>
> > Well, for instance why should someone use Segovia's fingerings? They
> > might be the best fingerings but why? 'Cause he said so? They were/
> > are the only fingerings to use. I would venture that Segovia was not
> > a teacher but someone who anointed the valid successors to his
> > throne. I'm not saying his approach is necessarily wrong, just very
> > old world - a padrone.
>
> > Ed S.
>
> It was Segovia's class. Suppose you were a trainer, a fitness
> trainer. You teach the student to hold the bar in such a manner. The
> student does the opposite. You repeat, "hold it this way". The
> student holds it in the opposite way. As a trainer you grant the
> student the benefit of the doubt- maybe he is distracted, I'' try
> again. Same result. Another benefit of the doubt- maybe he is
> partially deaf. No, same result. Hmm, I don't want to believe that
> he is just resisting me out of a bad motive. I blow up- "get out of
> my sight". Can you understand what led to the blow up? Not to just
> ify it, just to understand it. Being someone's student implies the
> willingness to follow, doesn't it?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
What led to the blowup was that Segovia had more power than he could
handle. In the guitar world at that time Segovia had incredible
influence.
Nicodermus
You're wasting your breath. Jackson's theory is that if it's popular,
it's bad. case closed.
I think the Pope said somewhere that the Beatles were an evil
influence, so their music must be evil.
Doesn't matter what real musicians think.
Dicerous
> On Jun 12, 3:20 pm, socrates <rayf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > So when one takes a lesson, does there have to be a conference about
> > each thing that the teacher assigns? Isn't the student trusting that
> > the teacher has something to impart.
>
> To be taught, one must first be teachable. Sadly, the radical
> individualism of modernity's dictatorship of relativism has eroded
> docility, thus legions are trapped in the prisons of their egos and
> now have the gall to say such things as "I see Segovia as a ridgid
> [sic] cantaceruos [sic] son of a bitch." No wonder Tashi and Raptor
> get along swimmingly.
>
> For the few here who might still be teachable, see:http://tinyurl.com/m54j5
>
> This is actually Ch. 3 of this excellent book:http://tinyurl.com/2sq9cf
>
> Tashi was right that MC handled it most graciously. He was most
> docile. (Modernists: "docile" is not a bad word - nor is "old").
Once again, our favorite boy, Jackson resists the temptation to speak
for himself, but appeals to authority (in this case *the legacy* as
proof.) Jackson's *teaching devolution* concept was good but not
well thought out for us. Even in Plato's time the ego was an
important concept and an essential part of the learning process (e.g.
the idea of teaching as midwifery). Jackson, your crisis in faith is
only one step in the evolution of your own ego. Watching it dissolve
in front of this group of people may be what is necessary, I don't
know. Only you can answer that.
David
John Rimmer
"Tashi" <michae...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:1181678421....@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> very little constructive dialoge going on, on Segovia's part. Michael
> also was not Segovia's student, a master class is something entirely
> different. Michael was trained and raised in a different school and
> different time than Segovia. Segovia was wrong for not understanding
> this.
>
>
> I thought Michael's insights were very well thoughtfull and quite
> generiuos to Segovia. Also, this master class took place with an
> audiance of 300 elite guitarists.
>
> The myth that was prepetuated for 20 years was Michael was defiant, I
> think this video puts that myth to rest. I see Segovia as a ridgid
> cantaceruos son of a bitch.
> MT
>
I have not read all the subsequent posts, but I was incredibly impressed
with how Michael put the master class in perspective and dealt with it all.
Not every teacher can teach this way, of course. You have to be of the
stature of Segovia to even be in a legitimate position to do so.
Now fast-forward to the imaginary of Segovia giving that class today....how
would the guitar student of today take such a lesson?
John
Nicodermus
>
> - Show quoted text -
Problem is, most of us did that in private when we were 16
Comanc...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 12, 7:54 pm, Nicodemus <jacksones...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 12, 4:26 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> > > The only reason Segovia got where he got was because of all the people
> > > he trampled on!
>
> > The only reason, eh? Kindly prove your charge.
>
> > The truth is that you don't like Segovia because he was aristocratic
> > rather than an egalitarian, because he believed in orders of rank, the
> > hierarchy of reality. All of this is a grave insult to today's
> > militant mediocrity, which loves nothing more than to cut down the
> > highest stalks.
>
> A greater tragedy is when the highest stalks cut themselves down so
> they'll plummet to the safety and security of mediocrity. They're
> afraid of falling short of their own standards of perfection, so they
> simply opt out. Who is John Galt?
Ms. Rand's Mystery Worker?
Tashi
> Phone: (512) - 218 - 8322<br>
Yes, Segovia's mis deeds have caught up to him finally. He is
certainly not the refined gentleman Pujol, or Rey de la Torre was.
MT
darwi...@yahoo.ca
wrote:
>
> I think Segovia was dead right to insist on his own fingerings. The
> video suggests that Chapdelaine had changed more than just a few of
> the fingerings and ideas; that there had been a pretty extensive
> reworking.
>
Extensive reworking indeed. Too bad Ponce, MCT, et al. weren't alive
to see Segovia get a taste of his own medicine.
Comanc...@hotmail.com
> "Tashi" <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote in message
In your imaginary lesson we might see you soil the chair and dissolve.
It's funny, think about it.
GuitarsWeB
> influence, so their music must be evil.
> Doesn't matter what real musicians think.
Oh My! I play a lot of popular music! Could it have a satanic
influence, and I'm not aware of what I am playing? Maybe I should
record "Theme From The Deer Hunter," then, play if backwards; there
could be a hidden subliminal message? No, we need a piece with words,
to have a message. How can I detect any satanic overtones, or do they
only occur with long scale instruments, any thing over 650mm. Are they
more predominate in cedar or spruce soundboards? I'm sure MT or
Schramm would be able to answer this type of question.
Paul McGuffin
Nicodemus
I'd like to add that I quit doing that at 17, because I heard it
causes one to grow hair on ones palm, and it causes blindness, and can
lead to all sorts of physical health problems.
John Rimmer
<Comanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181698401.9...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
John
Raptor
"Now fast-forward to the imaginary of Segovia giving that class
today....how would the guitar student of today take such a lesson?"
You imagine this drama between student and master hasn't been played
out repeatedly for centuries? The young bull shies away from the old
bull and his harem only until he's confident he's a match for the old
bull and wants some for himself. Natural selection isn't restricted
to biology; it plays itself out in the arts, too. But I'd agree
American students may be a little ahead of the game, if only because
deference as a practical courtesy of youth here is largely dead. Too
many mistake it for weakness because they fail to understand the
difference between deference and genuine respect.
mark
John Rimmer
"Raptor" <mpda...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1181699433.0...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 12, 7:16 pm, "John Rimmer" <jdr...@sbcglobal.nte> wrote:
>
> "Now fast-forward to the imaginary of Segovia giving that class
> today....how would the guitar student of today take such a lesson?"
>
> You imagine this drama between student and master hasn't been played
> out repeatedly for centuries?
Not at all. That was not even suggested, Mark.
fol...@yahoo.com
> Neither did la Cathedreal. I might have done the same thing if I was
> Segovia, shove that composition in my back pocket. Barios was a
> simple peasant whose talent obviously eclipsed Segovia's. So much for
> another of Jackson's warped theories
A guitarist in New York named Carmen Marina published an edition and
recorded on SMC la Catedral some years before Williams got to
recording Barrios. Oyanguren was the first to record a work of Barrios
(the Danza Guarini) in New York in the 1930s. So Barrios did get to NY
in spirit if not in body.
M.
yarnmarke...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Crap. So that's what's causing it! For years now, I've been blaming it
on bad genetics.
I'd stop, but it gets cold in the winter here in Ohio and the fur
keeps my hands warm.
Deborah
Nicodermus
OK, you win. I'm just an amateur, you know.
yarnmarke...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes. That's right.
Deborah
Tashi
> On Jun 12, 3:28 pm, John Philip Dimick <googlegro...@guitarist.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think Segovia was dead right to insist on his own fingerings. The
> > video suggests that Chapdelaine had changed more than just a few of
> > the fingerings and ideas; that there had been a pretty extensive
> > reworking.
>
> of the extraordinary arrogance of MC, who was a mere upstart in
> comparison to Segovia? Just think of it from Segovia's perspective:
> "I've dedicated my life to the classical guitar for over 70 years now.
> I've traveled the world many times in its service. I raised it from
> the salon to the concert hall. It's likely that this person in front
> of me wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for me. I've worked hard
> in fingering this piece. Yet this young upstart believes that his
> judgment is superior to mine. And now he's publicly insulting me by
> playing this right in front of my face and in front of this crowd.
> Yes, get out!"
Sounds more like the tyranical behavior of a self possesed dictator,
and not that of an intelligent thoughtfull mentor. However I
uderstand your attraction to the dominator and the dominated, same old
song. I think your a wervert you pervert.
MT
John LaCroix
> On Jun 12, 4:13 pm, guitar_god <guitar_...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > After twenty years of rumor, here's what really happened.
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>
> > > MT
>
>
> It is so amazing to see Segovia live in such infamy.
>
> Had he only lived longer to upset more people.
>
> Just imagine if he was a weak kneed nice guy.
>
> Carry on
I'm completely confident I would have played one note and he would
have said to get the fuck out!
John L.
PS: I like your new screen name, Jackson - reminds me of a brand of
nicotine patches. Keep up the good work!
John LaCroix
Good point here. I also think that Segovia was just teaching what his
teacher taught him - he taught himself, correct?
John L.
edspy...@yahoo.com
> On Jun 12, 3:05 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 4:46 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 12, 1:50 pm, Dicerous <Dicer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 12, 12:23 pm, socrates <rayf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jun 12, 2:51 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jun 12, 2:23 pm, Tashi <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Jun 12, 12:18 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
>
> > > > > > > > > After twenty years of rumor, here's what really happened.
>
> > > > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>
> > > > > > > > > MT
>
>
> > > > > > > > Ed S.
>
> > > > > > > I don't catch your drift Ed.
> > > > > > > MT
>
> > > > > > Well, for instance why should someone use Segovia's fingerings? They
> > > > > > might be the best fingerings but why? 'Cause he said so? They were/
> > > > > > are the only fingerings to use. I would venture that Segovia was not
> > > > > > a teacher but someone who anointed the valid successors to his
> > > > > > throne. I'm not saying his approach is necessarily wrong, just very
> > > > > > old world - a padrone.
>
> > > > > > Ed S.
>
> > > > > It was Segovia's class. Suppose you were a trainer, a fitness
> > > > > trainer. You teach the student to hold the bar in such a manner. The
> > > > > student does the opposite. You repeat, "hold it this way". The
> > > > > student holds it in the opposite way. As a trainer you grant the
> > > > > student the benefit of the doubt- maybe he is distracted, I'' try
> > > > > again. Same result. Another benefit of the doubt- maybe he is
> > > > > partially deaf. No, same result. Hmm, I don't want to believe that
> > > > > he is just resisting me out of a bad motive. I blow up- "get out of
> > > > > my sight". Can you understand what led to the blow up? Not to just
> > > > > ify it, just to understand it. Being someone's student implies the
> > > > > willingness to follow, doesn't it?
>
>
> > > > The teaching profession has evolved. We're aware of different
> > > > learning styles now. What's interesting is that this event had little
> > > > effect on Michael's career.
> > > > David
>
> > > David, I've spoken to Michael at lenght about this incident over
> > > the years. While Michael is one of the most gifted and talented
> > > guitarists I know, he has a career baised on the talents of his own
> > > making. I think Michael feels his career would have been better had
> > > this not happened, and he was somewhat black listed by the
> > > mainstream.
>
> > > I remember meeting Michael right before his ''Segovia Incident".
> > > After I had heard what went down, I told him he would end up being
> > > more famous than the rest of the players in the class. Damn I hate it
> > > when I'm always right!
> > > MT- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > incredible. His arrangements of pop hits seems like a throw-aways yet
> > they take a huge amount arranging and big technique chops. Somehow
> > you hear the entire song in the arrangement for solo guitar. I talked
> > to him for maybe a minute after his concert and he was gracious and
> > interested.
>
> > Ed S.
>
> <<<<<
> His arrangements of pop hits seems like a throw-aways yet
> they take a huge amount arranging and big technique chops. >>>
>
> Ed, you mean,the fact that they were "pop" songs, it was a waste of
> time to be arranging them; beneath a classical player of high esteem?
> Paul McGuffin, Green Valley, Arizona- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
No. I meant the casual listener or even a CG audience may not
appreciate what goes into the transcription of a pop song into a
guitar solo that captures the spirit of the original.
Ed S.
Nicodermus
> PS: I like your new screen name, Jackson - reminds me of a brand of
>
> - Show quoted text -
Really? why so?
Comanc...@hotmail.com
> <Comanchetr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Sorry, it's still funny.
>
> > In your imaginary lesson we might see you soil the chair and dissolve.
>
> > It's funny, think about it.
>
> Perhaps, in your imagination. Up yours! Oh yeah, remember rule #6, MF.
>
> John- Hide quoted text -
Raptor
edspy...@yahoo.com
> > > > > > > > a teacher but someone who anointed the valid successors to his
> > > > > > > > throne. I'm not saying his approach is necessarily wrong, just very
> > > > > > > > old world - a padrone.
>
> > > > > > > > Ed S.
>
> > > > > > > It was Segovia's class. Suppose you were a trainer, a fitness
> > > > > > > trainer. You teach the student to hold the bar in such a manner. The
> > > > > > > student does the opposite. You repeat, "hold it this way". The
> > > > > > > student holds it in the opposite way. As a trainer you grant the
> > > > > > > student the benefit of the doubt- maybe he is distracted, I'' try
> > > > > > > again. Same result. Another benefit of the doubt- maybe he is
> > > > > > > partially deaf. No, same result. Hmm, I don't want to believe that
> > > > > > > he is just resisting me out of a bad motive. I blow up- "get out of
> > > > > > > my sight". Can you understand what led to the blow up? Not to just
> > > > > > > ify it, just to understand it. Being someone's student implies the
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > .
>
> > > > > > > ify it, just to understand it. Being someone's student implies the
> > > > > > > willingness to follow, doesn't it?
>
>
> > > > > > Ed S.
>
> > > > > How about to try what the teacher suggest?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > dismiss Michael.
>
> > > He probably was of the old school "emulation" manner of teacher.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> > > He probably was of the old school "emulation" manner of teacher.
>
> > I agree and I think bringing some of that approach forward might work
> > for us. Bring back a little rote memorization, maybe "learn these
> > scales because I said so", "if it was good enough for my teacher it's
> > good enough for you", "and what is wrong with rest stroke".
>
> > Ed S.
>
> So when one takes a lesson, does there have to be a conference about
> each thing that the teacher assigns? Isn't the student trusting that
>
> - Show quoted text -
For the short period of time a masterclass session lasts there is a
teacher/student relationship. Michael handled it as it should have
been handled, with respect and humility. I on the other hand, coming
from a much courser background, might have suggested an impossible sex
act. For me there is very little knowledge I will accept with
intimidation or humiliation. There is never just one source of
knowledge.
Can we end this little side discussion? I'm enjoying it but I think
I'm out of words to defend whatever position I have accidently taken.
Ed S.