New Blog Post-Seating Position

[Douglas Seth]

Hi,
Here is my new blog post plus video on proper seating position. I plan
to blog about all technical areas in the coming weeks, complete with
video demos. Check it out and tell your guitar friends that might be
interested.

http://nonylonstringsattached.blogspot.com/2012/09/classical-guitar-seating-position.html?m=1

DS

[John Nguyen]

> http://nonylonstringsattached.blogspot.com/2012/09/classical-guitar-s...
>
> DS

Nice going, Doug! It's a very clear and concise information on getting
the proper seating position.
If I may offer my observation, this fits very well with an average or
tall western body frame. For short guy like myself, the angle of the
left thigh is very important. If it's too flat, horizontally, then I
would find myself slumping forward trying to hold the guitar. As a
result, I always have to put the foot rest to the highest postion,and
in addition I have to tiptoe a little bit on the foot rest to get my
left thigh pointing around 30 degrees up to rest the guitar and hold
it comfortably. For me, low chair plus high foot rest is a good
combination.
It would be great if you could share your observation on this from
teach young kids. I always wonder if what I'm doing is the correct
way. Oh, I forgot to say I turned higher end of the foot rest toward
my foot so I can eek out the last inch from it :-)
Cheers,

John

[Murdick]

That's good, you look just like me. Notice that when you finally get in position, your knee is line with the center of your chest. This necessitates a slight twisting of the torso, but not enough to matter. You also lean forward slightly as well. You don't really want to sit up perfectly straight.

[Murdick]

John, for many, it takes about a year to learn how to hold the guitar and you should learn to do this under the direction of a teacher.

[Douglas Seth]

Thanks John, it sounds like you are more or less doing (it's hard to
tell without seeing) what you need to do with small body type. I have
seen this problem in both adults and children. It is sometimes a
tough fix. The problem is the short length of the thigh on small
people will short legs. I have a student, who like you, plays well and
is very short. He is from Guatamala. He uses a footstool on the
highest setting. You also might want to try some non skid material on
your left thigh to secure the guitar. I would also try using a guitar
support like the one in the video and sew some non skid material on
the bottom of it. You could try a traditional flamenco position too.
Resting the lower bout on the right thigh. It might work. A guitar
strap would almost certainly solve your problem if you're willing to
go that route.

[Douglas Seth]

On Sep 14, 11:46 pm, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Friday, September 14, 2012 3:43:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Seth wrote:
> > Hi,
>
> > Here is my new blog post plus video on proper seating position. I plan
>
> > to blog about all technical areas in the coming weeks, complete with
>
> > video demos. Check it out and tell your guitar friends that might be
>
> > interested.
>

> >http://nonylonstringsattached.blogspot.com/2012/09/classical-guitar-s...

>
> > DS
>
> That's good, you look just like me.  Notice that when you finally get in position, your knee is line with the center of your chest.  This necessitates a slight twisting of the torso, but not enough to matter. You also lean forward slightly as well.  You don't really want to sit up perfectly straight.

I am glad you thought it was good. I think students tend to take
things too literally. Sometimes it is better to stress anatomical
alignment and good posture over these small nuances that will
inevitably happen anyways. Many times if you tell a student to do
something slightly it turns into a lot very quickly. Instead of
leaning slightly forward, they have bad posture and are hunching
over.:)

[Murdick]

When I put up my videos in 2007 describing the Shearer./erg technique, I was sure that within a month they would be superseded by much better videos. There are a lot of Shearer first, 2nd 3rd and 4th generation students out there who can really wail. Yours seems to be the first attempt to get better information out there.

[Douglas Seth]

They will hopefully present a viable alternative to your videos. I
think they will largely cover the same stuff, but I intend to go
further into advanced technique with small demos of the technique. For
me, it is easier than writing a technique book and a better way to
transmit the info to more people, faster. I also want something for my
students to be able to go to as reference. Some of the advanced stuff
really isn't out there at all, and are techniques I learned from
Stanley Yates.

[Murdick]

So when is David Arnold going to put up his videos?

[John Nguyen]

On Sep 15, 10:26 pm, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:

>
> So when is David Arnold going to put up his videos?-

I think it's all explained in the DGT ;-P

[Murdick]

On Friday, September 14, 2012 3:43:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Seth wrote:

I've developed an interesting idea based on my definition of finger independence: "If a finger is flexed (or extended)and the adjacent finger is relatively unaffected, than the unaffected finger enjoys a high degree of independence from the flexed finger." A high degree of independence must present in both i and m for a fluent 'im' alternation to occur.

This may not sound like much, but it has led to a rather interesting experiment. From the above definition it can be shown that 'i' can be independent from 'm' while 'm' may not be independent from 'i', and vice versa. The experiment lasers in on the exact problem when lack of fluency occurs. I'll make a video as send it to you sometime this week. Ahh, the joys of basic research.

Kent

[JPD]

On Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:36:02 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> Ahh, the joys of basic research.

I've been doing some basic research on i-m alternation with a cool camera that captures 1,000 frames per second. Not very expensive, either, for such a video camera. Got it new from Japan through eBay.

What I'm watching in particular are the differences between i and m. My m is fantastic. I'm trying to get it to teach my i. But they are very different fingers. In particular, i at rest is much more extended than m at rest. In Arpeggios, I think my i would be happier playing one string higher than m, rather than lower, frankly.

The problem at the moment is that, compared with m, i has to flex several degrees tighter (away from midrange) in order to play the next-lower string in an arpeggio. In a fast, continuous arpeggio, this encourages i to accumulate tension. It has to do more flexing than m to hit the string, and it tends to want to *stay* flexed. Mine does, anyway. m is much more relaxed, doing all of its work cloer to midrange.

The same goes for i-m alternation on a single string. i hardly has time to return to midrange before it has to turn around and flex again. The only way to get it to relax all the way out to midrange is to greatly overshoot the string on return.

I'm guessing that when I was decades younger and a hot player, my i was conditioned to be more relaxed in a more flexed position. (Shearer's "prepared" position.) Nowadays, when my i returns to the prepared position, it's not relaxed at all. I have to extend it quite a bit farther to get to its relaxed midrange. So it's way out of position, or so it feels.

I was looking at some slo-mo video of an older Yamashita the other day. He was playing blazing fast i-m alternation, and I noticed he was really overshooting the return with i. Taking a BIG swing with i, compared with m. "Swinging from the heels," as they say in baseball. I wonder if that's something he developed as he got older.

Anyway, it's interesting fooling around with this slo-mo video cam. Basic research.

[JPD]

On Sunday, September 16, 2012 8:08:42 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:

> m is much more relaxed, doing all of its work cloer to midrange.

"...CLOSER to midrange", I meant to say.

[John Huff]

On Saturday, 15 September 2012 06:43:56 UTC+10, Douglas Seth wrote:
> Hi, Here is my new blog post plus video on proper seating position. I plan to blog about all technical areas in the coming weeks, complete with video demos. Check it out and tell your guitar friends that might be interested. http://nonylonstringsattached.blogspot.com/2012/09/classical-guitar-seating-position.html?m=1 DS

Good stuff. One thing that's missing too often when advice is given on seating position, is where to place a music stand. For a long time I got that wrong. I've seen quite a few players who have good seating position when playing without music, but it all goes horribly wrong when they set the stand down low and promptly lean well forward and off to one side. I did that myself, in fact...

[Douglas Seth]

On Sep 16, 8:36 pm, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Friday, September 14, 2012 3:43:56 PM UTC-5, Douglas Seth wrote:
> > Hi,
>
> > Here is my new blog post plus video on proper seating position. I plan
>
> > to blog about all technical areas in the coming weeks, complete with
>
> > video demos. Check it out and tell your guitar friends that might be
>
> > interested.
>

> >http://nonylonstringsattached.blogspot.com/2012/09/classical-guitar-s...

>
> > DS
>
> I've developed an interesting idea based on my definition of finger independence: "If a finger is flexed (or extended)and the adjacent finger is relatively unaffected, than the unaffected finger enjoys a high degree of independence from the flexed finger." A high degree of independence must present in both i and m for a fluent 'im' alternation to occur.
>
> This may not sound like much, but it has led to a rather interesting experiment.  From the above definition it can be shown that 'i' can be independent from 'm' while 'm' may not be independent from 'i', and vice versa. The experiment lasers in on the exact problem when lack of fluency occurs. I'll make a video as send it to you sometime this week. Ahh, the joys of basic research.
>
> Kent

I will be interested to see the video. I just tried it. You could be
on to something. Sometimes little things like this lead to a bigger
breakthrough.

[Douglas Seth]

On Sep 16, 11:36 pm, John Huff <jedh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 15 September 2012 06:43:56 UTC+10, Douglas Seth wrote:

> > Hi, Here is my new blog post plus video on proper seating position. I plan to blog about all technical areas in the coming weeks, complete with video demos. Check it out and tell your guitar friends that might be interested.http://nonylonstringsattached.blogspot.com/2012/09/classical-guitar-s...DS

>
> Good stuff. One thing that's missing too often when advice is given on seating position, is where to place a music stand. For a long time I got that wrong. I've seen quite a few players who have good seating position when playing without music, but it all goes horribly wrong when they set the stand down low and promptly lean well forward and off to one side. I did that myself, in fact...

Thanks John. Good points. The stand should be in your line of vision
which from this seating postition is center or slightly right because
of how your body is set to the right. If you set it to the left in
this seating postition, it causes too much twisting of the neck and
torso. Too high of a stand will block the sound of the guitar in a
recital. Stand placement is a personal preference. As long as you
don't disrupt a solid seating position or break your anatomical
alignment too much, it is all good, IMO.

[Tommy Grand]

> http://nonylonstringsattached.blogspot.com/2012/09/classical-guitar-s...
>
> DS

Nice job. A couple of really good players have recommended leaning
well forward and into the guitar, because it makes the guitar feel
like an extension of your body -- which is essential for fluent
playing. Any reaction to this?

[Murdick]

Ok, you will be on my list of people to send a video to. It could be that a problem with 'm' affects 'i'. That is due to 'm''s lack of independence from 'i', tension builds and both fingers begin to lose coordination. Even though my 'i' has good independence 'm', as I speed up, the whole im complex tenses up and 'i' starts getting quirky.

[Murdick]

Yes, you should lean forward slightly. See my video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxR_esEw_xs&list=SPCB27A1D7FA3F7B59&index=1&feature=plpp_video

[Douglas Seth]

I don't disagree, but like I said in the previous post to Kent, I
think you have to be careful about how you phrase things. That slight
lean forward can quickly turn into a hunch for someone with bad
posture. I do lean forward slightly as you can see in the video.
Serious students logging many hours will intuitively figure this out.
I still think about my seating all the time. There is always room to
refine.

[Cactus Wren]

Kent,
please see this video, around 4:50 and then go back to your sax playing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fqwOqWvqnlw#!

[himmelhoch]

A smokin' video, Miguel, thanks for putting that up there!

[JPD]

On Monday, September 17, 2012 10:54:46 AM UTC-7, Cactus Wren wrote:
> Kent,
>
> please see this video, around 4:50 and then go back to your sax playing.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fqwOqWvqnlw#!

Mmmm!

[Murdick]

Cactus says, "Kent,

please see this video, around 4:50 and then go back to your sax playing."

A) he's playing folk music
B) he may (or may not) be tearing himself up.
Now I will go back to my saxophone, which is getting better, BTW.

[John Nguyen]

On Monday, September 17, 2012 1:54:46 PM UTC-4, Cactus Wren wrote:

> Kent, please see this video, around 4:50 and then go back to your sax playing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fqwOqWvqnlw#!

Ohhhh, yummy!!!!

[Richard Jernigan]

Javier is playing a piece by Agustin Castellon Campos "Sabicas" a sophisticated composer, though probably technically illiterate in music. Sabicas claimed he did not read or write musical notation, though for someone of his talent, this was unnecessary to develop beautifully balanced compositions of several minutes length.

Javier has copped the piece off a recording, pretty accurately. The recording is just a snapshot of Sabicas's continually evolving compositions in this genre, known as soleá. There are a multitude of sub-genres of soleá. Sabicas was proficient in all of them as an accompanist of dancers, of singers, and as a soloist. This is not :folk music in the sense of simple stuff handed down over generations. It is a sophisticated composition by a master, but Sabicas never played a piece the same way twice. It was always evolving.

Javier, good as he is, doesn't convey the nuances of Sabicas's playing.

>
> B) he may (or may not) be tearing himself up.

Whether Javier is tearing himself up remains to be seen. His technique differs a bit from Sabicas, who remained a virtuoso player into his late seventies. Javier's i-m technique is a little more like Paco de Lucia's than Sabicas's. Paco is 65 and still smokin'.

>
> Now I will go back to my saxophone, which is getting better, BTW.Here's an

Here's another dose of flamenco from Grisha Goryachev, a graduate of the New England Conservatory and student of Eliot Fisk. But he was playing concerts with his father in Russia when he was 12, or maybe younger, already with that machine-gun i-m speed.

This is a piece by Paco de Lucia. It is more like jazz than Sabicas's through-composed stuff--a sequence of variations on a chord progression and metric pattern.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMCak0-0WNw&feature=player_embedded

RNJ

[Richard Jernigan]

We saw Grisha at an Austin Classical Guitar Society concert at a private house Saturday night, with an audience of about 65. He and jeremy Mouffe played both flamenco and classical and brought the house down, with two standing ovations.

When we talked to Grisha afterwards he said he wasn't feeling particularly well. He had his doubts about the performance, but once he got into it he forgot about having the flu. Technically he was as good as the video, but for a live audience there was more expression and passion.

RNJ

[Cactus Wren]

Somehow, I don't think your history lesson is going to change Kent's view of folk music.

Grisha mentioned on the flamenco forum that he couldn't quite get Conde's speed, but close! Interestingly, over there they had compared Conde's position to Grisha's (and Sabicas'), as opposed to Paco's.

[Murdick]

Speed has (almost) nothing to do with seating , at least in the short term. We learn to hold our instruments in a advantageous position in order to facilitate learning and to keep the human machine working throughout our
lives.

[Fadosolrélamisi]

My latest acquisition, the large Dynarette cushion, is definitely the way to go for me, finally something (I mean a guitar accesory) that suit me! No clunky noise, stable and reliable... eh! it may even prolong my guitar life of a good 5 to 10 years!

[Douglas Seth]

The dynarette cushion is good, but like I said in the video, it's not
really adjustable. If your seat is too high, it won't be high enough.
It works great with a folding chair. If you aren't gigging or
performing, it's fine.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Lean the guitar back if you are able, meaning if you are tall.
Sitting straight is always best, but short people may have to
lean forward a bit. When the guitar tilts back, the weight
of the arm holds the strings to the board. Rostropovich
holding the cello on his knee illustrated this principle.
Idiots called his manner of playing "eccentric". Since
I was a guitarist, I could see the logic of his position
the instant that I saw him play. Relatively
short people, like Julian Bream, play with a vertical top,
and they have to hold their hands up to the board, which
is an obvious disadvantage. The length of the arms has
more to do with it than the overall height. Sounds like some
rationalization is going on with your source.

You do what you have to do.
Regards, daveA

--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: d.raleig...@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

[Matt Faunce]

The dynarette squeaks when the guitar moves on top of it. It's an issue
when recording. If you're one of these players that doesn't move it
might not matter. I don't move much but apparently enough to makes
squeaks. Other than that I love it. I need to find a nice piece of cloth
to throw over it when recording. I use the dynarette for gigs, but I
always bring my own stool. If the venue has a stool that's the right
height (seat to foot rung), then I'll use theirs, but if not I have mine.

--
Matt

[Fadosolrélamisi]

Squeak far less than the murata (which was almost as squeaky as a pirate ship!)
I still have to use a very low foot stool with the dynarette (2 " of the ground) ... this is my third try at one of these so called "guitar support" ... in a few years I'll probably try the neck up or what ever will be in vogue ... I choose the murata a few years ago because of the unpredictability of the suction cups (I was using an ergo play) ...My Dynarette cushion hasn't squeak yet and when the guitar is placed it I almost do not notice it.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

That is not a bad habit for someone who wants to see the fretboard
and the music at the same time. It renders you more visible to
an audience if you perform with a stand. Presti and Lagoya used very low
cut-down music stands. It's not good for posture. It's not good for
watching a conductor. It certainly is not "wrong" either, although
clearly it is not right for you. It's a choice. Regards, daveA

[Murdick]

One other thing, notice at 3.00 minutes that you hold the guitar neck too high which causes the right should to drop. I don't know if I mentioned this before. I'm sure this works for you and many others, but I wouldn't teach a student to play this way.

[Richard Jernigan]

I sat on the front row for the L.A. Guitar Quartet's concert here in Austin night before last. Kanengiser used a Dynarette and a low footstool under his left foot. Dearman used just a footstool set quite high. Greif used just a footstool at moderate height. Tennant held the guitaar in the old-time flamenco position, somewhat supported by his ample abdomen. They all exhibited technical and musical virtuosity of the highest degree.

RNJ

[Murdick]

Richard, I'm not saying that you can't play in various positions, I'm talking about optimal positioning for someone who is learning the guitar. When a student is paying you 50 bucks, you better know what optimal positioning is all about - and it is not playing with large muscle groups out of position, i.e. a dropped shoulder.

[Douglas Seth]

On Oct 8, 8:29 pm, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> One other thing, notice at 3.00 minutes that you hold the guitar neck too high which causes the right should to drop.  I don't know if I mentioned this before. I'm sure this works for you and many others, but I wouldn't teach a student to play this way.

I see that, first of all, I NEVER play with a footstool. I missed it,
if I was looking at a student I would look for level shoulders. At
4:10 is closer to the actual position I do use, with the support I
use. You can see the difference. All that said, even with the mistake
at the 3 minute mark, it is still a better seating position than most.

I am very open minded about technique in general, but the LAGQ could
sit however they want and play well despite themselves. However, there
always something to learn about a great player's approach. My flamenco
teacher says you be able to perform in at least 2 different seating
positions to keep your body moving around and not too rigid in one
singular position. It is a good point and this guy is an incredible
player.

[Richard Jernigan]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 7:27:31 AM UTC-5, Murdick wrote:

> Richard, I'm not saying that you can't play in various positions, I'm talking about optimal positioning for someone who is learning the guitar. When a student is paying you 50 bucks, you better know what optimal positioning is all about - and it is not playing with large muscle groups out of position, i.e. a dropped shoulder.

It was the mention of the Dynarette that prompted my remark. Despite their variety of approaches the LAGQ all looked pretty good to me--though I just surveyed them briefly a couple of times. Level shoulders, erect backs, no craned necks, quiet right hands, the usual advice I've heard and read.

I was particularly interested in Tennant, since it took me quite a while to figure out the old-time flamenco position. He had it down pat. Level shoulders, guitar held by the weight of the right upper arm just about parallel to the floor, no evidence of excess tension anywhere. He was remarkably secure, and perhaps the most technically impressive of the bunch.

But I was most interested in the music. A great program presented with fantastic musicianship!

The Austin Classical Guitar Society seems to program Ana Vidovic every year. I'm always impressed by how well she plays, despite violating many of the 'rules' of the game. Hope it doesn't mess her up as the years accumulate.

RNJ