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What's Prof. Chen Zhi's secret?

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Jackson K. Eskew

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Jun 2, 2007, 2:21:10 AM6/2/07
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Here is Soon Soon, 18 years old, a rising student of Professor Chen
Zhi of Beijing, China, and also teacher of Li Jie, Wang Yameng, Su
Meng, Chen Shanshan, and Xuefei Yang:

http://tinyurl.com/ypjfy5

How is this man consistently producing such amazing talent? And why
are they all female? Anyone care to buy me a plane ticket to China?
Seriously, how does he do it? Don't say it's just a numbers game.

mar....@online.no

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Jun 2, 2007, 5:03:20 AM6/2/07
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WOW, truly amazed by both teacher and student. Thinking about moving
to china :)

Dice...@gmail.com

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Jun 2, 2007, 5:05:30 AM6/2/07
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On Jun 2, 2:03 am, mar.f...@online.no wrote:
> WOW, truly amazed by both teacher and student. Thinking about moving
> to china :)

But...what does a child know about the suffering of bees?

David

mar....@online.no

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Jun 2, 2007, 5:54:27 AM6/2/07
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speaking words of wisdom let it be

mar....@online.no

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Jun 2, 2007, 6:06:43 AM6/2/07
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Oh, the bees :)

Lutemann

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Jun 2, 2007, 8:13:15 AM6/2/07
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On Jun 2, 1:21?am, "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 2, 1:21 am, "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Jackson,

I'm sorry that almost everyone on this list is either ignorant or just
plain stupid. (BTW, how the hell did you go from being the Bozo of
RMCG to being one of the few with any intelligent curiousity?)
Here's how I see the Chinese situation.

First off, the Chinese have been pushing the arts in the schools in a
big way, and there are a lot of Chinese. As I recall, every child must
play an instrument over there. An important teacher can then cherry
pick among millions. But it's more than that. If Zhi fooled around
red herrings like the thumb leading the hand or all that DA stuff, he
would get nothing from these students. Look at that girl's right hand
and look at all their right hands - they all have almost identical
techniques. Zhi teaches good crossing and maintaining slightly over
flexed fingers. This is enough to get the very talented playing
fluently. The left hands look great as well. It's all about basic
technique. If you start in the right direction and are very talented,
the technique will take off. Once you get going in the wrong direction
- Jorge Morel and Sharon Isbin are good examples - you're screwed.

There really is only one way to play the guitar successfully (that has
been discovered so far), and the parameters are narrow. Zhi differs
from my teaching videos in that his students right hands don't have
the small tilt to the left and he does not employ and active P tip.
The left hand is the same.

Raptor

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Jun 2, 2007, 10:34:46 AM6/2/07
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On Jun 2, 12:21 am, "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

It's not "just a numbers game" but that's probably a large part of
it. Beyond casting a very large net over a pool of students who
started as children, the equation isn't all that difficult, I think.

T1+T2+D+P=P2

T1=talent
T2=training
D=discipline
P=practice
P2=product

To that we might add variables, harder to quantify, such as passion
and affection for the instrument and the literature. I've never met
one of them, but I would very surprised if Stanley's students of
equivalent natural ability aren't just as fine, albeit different as
individuals, as the Chinese students. The common denominator though
is probably practice, practice, practice. When friends used to ask
"how can you plan like that?" the response was simple. "You spend a
few thousand hours spread over a few decades working at it with the
guidance of some excellent teachers and mentors." No magic involved
at all.

mark

Lare

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Jun 2, 2007, 10:55:19 AM6/2/07
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"Lutemann" <lute...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1180786395.3...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

Ditto.

Prof. Chen Zhi's "not-so-secret" secret is that there is no such thing as
advanced guitar techniques. There are only mechanical fundamentals employed
with superb efficeincy. Acquiring a constellation of proper mechanics and
learning the subtlies of their combinations removes the barriers in the
intermediate/transition stage and allows the student to become a
self-actualized, very advanced technician, as is seen in the video.

Of course there is still the two other areas of general study that need to
be addressed as well, but that is another thread.

Larry McDonald


socrates

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Jun 2, 2007, 11:12:28 AM6/2/07
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Notice how she plays it without much expression. The emphasis of this
teacher is probably on exercises... and lots of them.


socrates

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Jun 2, 2007, 11:16:13 AM6/2/07
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enp...@cox.net

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Jun 2, 2007, 12:08:48 PM6/2/07
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On Jun 2, 10:16 am, socrates <rayf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=HHuWFRFk9cQ&mode=related&search=
> Compare to Barbosa Lima?

I certainly see the difference, but it's not a fair comparison on
several levels. One, she is simply warming up backstage while CBL is
performing. Two, she is playing it much faster, presumably for warm-up
value. Three, Las Abejas is a caprice and meant as a speedy show-off
piece. Not a lot of room for emoting. CBL gets expression through his
slower tempo and well, because he's CBL. I'd like to hear her play in
performance and then I'll better judge. Even at her best though, I
can't imagine a youngster approaching the musical maturity of a CBL.

Lutemann

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Jun 2, 2007, 12:12:03 PM6/2/07
to


Very good Lare and Raptor, you both nailed the important points. I
like this list. I think what Zhi does is collect students that have
T1,D and P and then gives them the proper fundamentals, i.e.
training.

Lutemann

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Jun 2, 2007, 12:13:53 PM6/2/07
to
On Jun 2, 9:55?am, "Lare" <Lmcdona...@wi.rr.com> wrote:
> "Lutemann" <lutem...@aol.com> wrote in message
> Larry McDonald- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tell this to Che. That's also Shearer's not so secret, secret.

Miguel de Maria

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Jun 2, 2007, 12:36:23 PM6/2/07
to

Another factor is the cultural attitude towards hard work that exists
in China (and indeed much of Eastern Asia). The West is talent-
obsessed, whose ideal is a stormy, prodigous virtuoso whose
transcendent abilities spring from a fount of elemental talent. It
seems that the hobbyist is especially enamored of this view. The East
is work obsessed--the most "talented" are assumed to be the ones who
worked the hardest. It's not a coincidence they produce so many
doctors and scientists, while we are making real estate agents and
financial advisors. One requires 16 years or so of apprenticeship,
the other a 6 month night course.

One day I had some Chinese guests over, one a lawyer and the other an
engineer. I was playing some music and the wife asked me how long I
had been playing. When I said 13 years she burst out laughing! It
was uninhibited laughter of shock to her, that someone who had only
been working 13 years at an instrument would dare call it his career!

Larry Deack

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Jun 2, 2007, 12:51:31 PM6/2/07
to
Miguel de Maria wrote:
> Another factor is the cultural attitude towards hard work that exists
> in China (and indeed much of Eastern Asia). The West is talent-
> obsessed, whose ideal is a stormy, prodigous virtuoso whose
> transcendent abilities spring from a fount of elemental talent. It
> seems that the hobbyist is especially enamored of this view. The East
> is work obsessed--the most "talented" are assumed to be the ones who
> worked the hardest. It's not a coincidence they produce so many
> doctors and scientists, while we are making real estate agents and
> financial advisors. One requires 16 years or so of apprenticeship,
> the other a 6 month night course.
>
> One day I had some Chinese guests over, one a lawyer and the other an
> engineer. I was playing some music and the wife asked me how long I
> had been playing. When I said 13 years she burst out laughing! It
> was uninhibited laughter of shock to her, that someone who had only
> been working 13 years at an instrument would dare call it his career!

Was that the lawyer or the engineer who laughed? I thought you were
going to tell one of these jokes:

An engineer thinks that equations are an approximation to reality.
A physicist thinks reality is an approximation to equations.
A mathematician doesn't care.

Most of my students are Asian kids and most are not US citizens. The
work ethic is incredible and the parents are always very involved. The
local k-12 schools don't teach guitar (with the exception of two high
schools). One of my kids just started a CG club at his high school (he's
only 13) with a couple of other Asian kids who take CG lessons from
another teacher. I think one key is starting them young. In the US we
have nothing like T-Ball and little league for classical guitar so most
CGists start very late compared to other instruments like piano and violin.

Miguel de Maria

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Jun 2, 2007, 1:04:38 PM6/2/07
to
> CGists start very late compared to other instruments like piano and violin.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

The engineer laughed. The lawyer, who is a bit more socially savvy,
shushed her and said, in the interest of damage control, "That's a
LONG time!"

Man, I didn't know you have kids! I really didn't see you as the
breeding type. I'm glad he was able to start early on the guitar.

Larry Deack

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Jun 2, 2007, 1:11:45 PM6/2/07
to
Miguel de Maria wrote:
> Man, I didn't know you have kids!

No no no!!!! I call my students my kids.

> I really didn't see you as the breeding type.

I am definitely not a breeder.

> I'm glad he was able to start early on the guitar.

You really don't want me to bread, believe me. I'm sure many people
would agree with this.

BUT, I get indoctrinate lots of other people's kids into my
particular brand of insanity. Wolly... stop cringing.

Larry Deack

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Jun 2, 2007, 1:13:07 PM6/2/07
to
Larry Deack wrote:
> You really don't want me to bread, believe me.

Ya gots ta love dem typos!

Miguel de Maria

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Jun 2, 2007, 1:21:33 PM6/2/07
to

Okay, my world has returned to its rightful place. I don't think you
could do too much harm to your students from what I've seen. They
could learn how to play guitar, perform in front of crowds, fight the
power, play Anunciazone...use wikipedia to write all their reports...

Larry Deack

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Jun 2, 2007, 1:25:33 PM6/2/07
to
Miguel de Maria wrote:
> Okay, my world has returned to its rightful place. I don't think you
> could do too much harm to your students from what I've seen. They
> could learn how to play guitar, perform in front of crowds, fight the
> power, play Anunciazone...use wikipedia to write all their reports...

You forgot the dodecahedrons... and I'm tutoring two kids in high
school math now too.

Scary, ain't it?

Lutemann

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Jun 2, 2007, 3:10:56 PM6/2/07
to
> been working 13 years at an instrument would dare call it his career!- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

>>>>while we are making real estate agents and
financial advisors. >>>>

It's all about money. Real estate agents and financial advisors are
scimmers. They position themselves near a lot of money and scim a few
percent off the top. That's about all americans are capable of doing
these days.

Miguel de Maria

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Jun 2, 2007, 3:18:50 PM6/2/07
to
> these days.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

It's sad, Kent. I was ranting about this the other day, and the guy I
was talking to, who had been an engineer, had a son who was an
engineer. He said no one was hiring, because of all the competition
and that the jobs had moved overseas! So what can you do...? I heard
on NPR that something like 40% of the jobs in the US have to do with
moving money back and forth.

Jez

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Jun 2, 2007, 3:58:46 PM6/2/07
to

<mar....@online.no> wrote in message
news:1180775000....@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> WOW, truly amazed by both teacher and student. Thinking about moving
> to china :)
>

My youngest brother has been teaching in China for nearly 4 years now, he
loves it there.
The thing he likes about it, (As far as I can make out.), is the pupils
enthusiasm for learning.
After some 10 years (?) of collage teaching in Wales, it's like a breath of
fresh air. Apparently.


--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.

"Culture and Ideology are not your friends. Culture is the greatest barrier
to your enlightenment, your education, and your decency." - Terence McKenna

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society."- Krishnamurti


wollybird

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Jun 2, 2007, 6:30:31 PM6/2/07
to
> P2=product- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

And he gets them to all sound the same! That's what I call tight
quality contoll.

Larry Deack

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Jun 2, 2007, 7:05:16 PM6/2/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> That's what I call tight quality contoll.

Nice typo!

wollybird

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Jun 2, 2007, 7:08:30 PM6/2/07
to

Maybe there is something to Freud, Still they do sound the same. Xuefi
(sp?) sounds the same the best, though.

John Rimmer

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Jun 2, 2007, 7:25:53 PM6/2/07
to

"wollybird" <woll...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:1180825710.6...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Xuefei... http://www.xuefeiyang.com/

John


Jackson K. Eskew

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Jun 2, 2007, 8:02:17 PM6/2/07
to
On Jun 2, 5:13 am, Lutemann <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:

> (BTW, how the hell did you go from being the Bozo of
> RMCG to being one of the few with any intelligent curiousity?)

I enjoy swinging between the two. Alternatively, the latter has always
been there, but you haven't been equipped to see it until recently. In
other words, the fault has been yours, not mine. Adaequatio, my
friend. It's good to see you emerging from the cave.

"Never did eye see the sun unless it had first become sunlike, and
never can the soul have vision of the First
Beauty unless itself be beautiful."

-Plotinus

"Knowledge comes about insofar as the object known is within the
knower."

-Aquinas


wollybird

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Jun 2, 2007, 8:05:38 PM6/2/07
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On Jun 2, 6:25 pm, "John Rimmer" <jdr...@sbcglobal.nte> wrote:
> "wollybird" <wollyb...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message

Thankyouverymuch. Funky spelling, and too lazy to look it up. At least
I didn't call her Chineese Chick.

Jackson K. Eskew

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Jun 2, 2007, 8:09:51 PM6/2/07
to
On Jun 2, 7:34 am, Raptor <mpdan...@msn.com> wrote:

> The common denominator though
> is probably practice, practice, practice.

More likely quality rather than quantity of practice is more
important. "Practice makes perfect" - no. Perfect practice makes
perfect. Incidentally, my teacher today shared with me a simple yet
profound truth related to this: Control breeds speed, he said. This
came up while discussing my progress on VL's Etude 1 and my
complaining about insufficient speed. He then told me to be patient
with this piece and explained how speed comes from control. These
Chinese players obviously have absorbed this teaching.

Larry Deack

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Jun 2, 2007, 8:11:36 PM6/2/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> Funky spelling

Try the simplified Chinese version if you think the Pinyin is funky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanyu_Pinyin

Jackson K. Eskew

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Jun 2, 2007, 8:11:53 PM6/2/07
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On Jun 2, 7:55 am, "Lare" <Lmcdona...@wi.rr.com> wrote:

> There are only mechanical fundamentals employed
> with superb efficeincy.

Yes! My teacher says the same.

socrates

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Jun 2, 2007, 10:17:17 PM6/2/07
to
On Jun 2, 8:09 pm, "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com>
wrote:


Like I said (apparently you weren't listening)- lots of exercises.
Lots. Try it- but don't injure yourself.

Jackson K. Eskew

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Jun 2, 2007, 10:27:54 PM6/2/07
to
On Jun 2, 7:17 pm, socrates <rayf...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Like I said (apparently you weren't listening)- lots of exercises. Lots.

Not exactly. As I intimated, quality rather than quantity is
paramount. A single well executed exercise is better than ten
exercises poorly done. This good execution includes appropriate speed,
etc. Of course, ten exercises well done is better. But the emphasis is
on quality rather than quantity as your post, perhaps unintentionally,
implies.

Lare

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Jun 2, 2007, 11:46:45 PM6/2/07
to

"Jackson K. Eskew" <jackso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180837674.5...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Bull's-eye.
As you said earlier, perfect practice makes perfect. Another favorite quote
of mine (which I'm sure I have posted before) is...

"Practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent"
- A. Glise in "Guitar Pedagogy"

Practicing lots and lots of exercises without regard for -or with
superficial understanding of- the mechanics involved invites permanent
mediocrity.

Jackson, you are starting to sound like a pedagogue. Heaven help us. :-)
LMc
P.S. If speed is your current focus, be sure you understand "covert motor
routines".


Larry Deack

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Jun 2, 2007, 11:53:12 PM6/2/07
to
Lare wrote:
> P.S. If speed is your current focus,
> be sure you understand "covert motor
> routines".

OK, I'll byte... what are "covert motor routines"?

Jackson K. Eskew

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Jun 3, 2007, 12:24:43 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 2, 8:46 pm, "Lare" <Lmcdona...@wi.rr.com> wrote:

> Jackson, you are starting to sound like a pedagogue. Heaven help us. :-)
> LMc
> P.S. If speed is your current focus, be sure you understand "covert motor
> routines".

I'm happy to have swallowed my pride last September and gotten a
teacher, as my friends here advised. I can't imagine not having a
teacher now. One of the best things I've ever done. More from today's
lesson:

"Never use the metronome to speed up, but only to slow down." This is
related to his "CONTROL breeds speed" teaching. He's trying to slow me
down! hehehe.....

Segovia was self-taught? I read this (again) in some liner notes
today. I don't buy it. What this really means is that he wasn't
formally taught; that is, he was taught on the streets, so to speak,
by the community of guitarists around him. But in today's hyper-
technocracy with its radical individualism and thus lack of any
organic communitarian impulse, we isolated players need to hire
teachers. Much more could be said of this. In conclusion, I'm thinking
of selling everything and becoming a gypsy.

Jackson K. Eskew

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Jun 3, 2007, 12:25:30 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 2, 8:53 pm, Larry Deack <c...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> OK, I'll byte... what are "covert motor routines"?

Yes, please explain.


Message has been deleted

wollybird

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Jun 3, 2007, 12:47:30 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 2, 11:42 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Jun 3, 12:24 am, "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com>
> The metronome is your best friend. When learning or relearning a
> piece of music, find the slowest metronome speed you can play the
> entire piece without mistakes. Then slowly increase the speed. after
> a day or two. Don't rush the speed increase. Be mindful of your LH
> and RH. Let us know what you experience.
>
> Ed S.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Funny how the advice runs on this. My teacher says no to that idea. In
geneal, no to using a metronome to learn a piece. Too robotic. We use
it with exercises in various ways, though

Larry Deack

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Jun 3, 2007, 1:04:32 AM6/3/07
to
Jackson K. Eskew wrote:
> In conclusion, I'm thinking
> of selling everything and becoming a gypsy.

It doesn't work that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

"The Roma are among the best known ethnic groups that appear in
literature and folklore, and are often referred to as Gypsies or
Gipsies, a term that is based on a mistaken belief of an origin in
Egypt[1]. The Roma are still thought of as wandering nomads in the
popular imagination, despite the fact that today the vast majority live
in permanent housing."

Redondo Beach has a large Gypsie community who speak their own
dialect of Romani.

AnneCoultersAdamsApple

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Jun 3, 2007, 1:06:10 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 2, 12:36 pm, Miguel de Maria <chomicha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 2, 7:34 am, Raptor <mpdan...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 2, 12:21 am, "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com>
> Another factor is the cultural attitude towards hard work that exists
> in China (and indeed much of Eastern Asia). The West is talent-
> obsessed, whose ideal is a stormy, prodigous virtuoso whose
> transcendent abilities spring from a fount of elemental talent. It
> seems that the hobbyist is especially enamored of this view. The East
> is work obsessed--the most "talented" are assumed to be the ones who
> worked the hardest. It's not a coincidence they produce so many
> doctors and scientists, while we are making real estate agents and
> financial advisors. One requires 16 years or so of apprenticeship,
> the other a 6 month night course.
>
> One day I had some Chinese guests over, one a lawyer and the other an
> engineer. I was playing some music and the wife asked me how long I
> had been playing. When I said 13 years she burst out laughing! It
> was uninhibited laughter of shock to her, that someone who had only
> been working 13 years at an instrument would dare call it his career!- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Miguel,

> had been playing. When I said 13 years she burst out laughing! It
> was uninhibited laughter of shock to her, that someone who had only
> been working 13 years at an instrument would dare call it his career!

There is an arrogance toward westerners that is masked successfully
most of the time. What the chinese usually laugh at is how we ship
jobs and manufacturing to asia, import asian science workers, make
american education available mostly to the very rich, borrow huge sums
of money from china, and yet we have to pretend we are not
threatened.

Oh right, it's the Hispanics, I forgot.

If you don't work in the IT, Engineering, and/or Pharmaceutical
industries you'll just accuse me of being a racist. Have at it.

A.

Lare

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Jun 3, 2007, 1:14:03 AM6/3/07
to

"Larry Deack" <cg...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:IWq8i.12947$296....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...

I'm glad to help out "a bit" but please understand I'm no expert.

The brain runs a series of commands (the "covert motor routine") that fires
a bunch of synapses that control a motion (a.k.a. an "overt motor routine"),
such as a series of free-strokes on an open string. When the free-strokes
are played more quietly, the synapses fire fewer muscle fibers. Muscle
fibers are either on or off. So it stands to reason that if you reduce the
number of fibers to zero and eliminate the "overt motor routine" (silence,
no motion whatsoever), all that remains is the commanding covert motor
routine. Players who have great mechanics but cannot play fast often cannot
"run the covert motor routine" any faster than they can play. It is as if
they are "sub-vocalizing" the music and can only play as fast as they can
think/audiate/aurally image (like slow readers that sub-vocalize as they
read).

I find that some of my late intermediate students can develop the sensation
of playing faster by running just the covert motor routine (play quieter and
quieter until you don't even twitch your fingers). After all, automatic
muscle motor memory is a "feeling or a sensation of doing it right" that
lies just outside our conscious control. I have begun to suspect that this
feeling is somehow connected to the "covert motor routine". Some students
can significantly increase their speed in a section with just a few minutes
of practicing only the "covert motor routine" more quickly than they can
play. They then play the offending section at the faster tempo as quietly
as possible, gradually increasing in volume. It sort of a Zen-like
experience... "Imagine yourself playing this spot faster, and you will play
it faster". It hasn't worked every time I've tried it but it has worked for
some.

Here's more on the subject. http://www.mechnerfoundation.org/Performa.doc

Oohhmmmm....
Larry McDonald (Larry the Second)

wollybird

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Jun 3, 2007, 1:36:01 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 12:06 am, AnneCoultersAdamsApple
> A.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

In banking we have a saying " if I owe you $100, I have a problem. If
I owe you $1,000,000, you have a problem." The Chineese are not as
clever as you may think. There are doing what Japan did 30 years ago.
All those Dollars they accumulated, became dimes, and we got some
nifty cheap TVs in the deal.

Larry Deack

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Jun 3, 2007, 1:48:40 AM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> In banking we have a saying " if I owe you $100, I have a problem. If
> I owe you $1,000,000, you have a problem." The Chineese are not as
> clever as you may think. There are doing what Japan did 30 years ago.
> All those Dollars they accumulated, became dimes, and we got some
> nifty cheap TVs in the deal.

Let's make this really clear CHINA IS NOT JAPAN!

Size does matter :-)

Larry Deack

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Jun 3, 2007, 1:52:32 AM6/3/07
to
Lare wrote:

> Here's more on the subject. http://www.mechnerfoundation.org/Performa.doc

Crap. I hate word documents. Maybe I'll download it later.

Sounds about right but maybe missing some things. Most often students
who can't play fast also cannot tap the rhythm at tempo or vocalize it
clearly. Many times that is because they try to hear it slower without
playing to the long notes...so.. they.. play.. eve.. ry.. note.. like..
this.

Thinking in ever bigger groups seems to work wonders for most people.
Sometimes I can just sing it with an exaggerated accent on the notes
they should be aiming for and they can suddenly play it at tempo.

> Oohhmmmm....
> Larry McDonald (Larry the Second)

You're Lare the first.

Message has been deleted

ag

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 3:18:24 AM6/3/07
to

"Jackson K. Eskew" <jackso...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1180844683.7...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

> On Jun 2, 8:46 pm, "Lare" <Lmcdona...@wi.rr.com> wrote:

>
> Segovia was self-taught? I read this (again) in some liner notes
> today. I don't buy it. What this really means is that he wasn't
> formally taught; that is, he was taught on the streets, so to speak,
> by the community of guitarists around him.

Segovia was a genius, and he learnt as a genius. Though it is not yet
completely documented, it seems clear that, since his tender childhood, he
learnt playing as a flamenco guitarist. In fact, the first guitar he owned
had formerly been played by Paco de Lucena, the greatest flamenco guitarist
of the epoque, who died when Segovia was five years old. Since then, Segovia
was given some instruction by Agustinillo, an amateur flamenco player who
was a fan of Paco de Lucena. There is a story going around in Andalucia -
which has never been supported by documental evidence, but which is
insistent nevertheless - telling that Andrés was the illegittimate son of
Paco de Lucena. According to Segovia autobiography, he had the first chance
to listen to classical guitar and its music one day in Granada, on the
Albaicin, when he listened to a Gabriel Ruiz de Almodovar performing (though
unproficiently) one of the Preludios by Tarrega: Segovia's motion, in this
occasion, was a very strong one. According to Domingo Prat, Segovia had the
revelation of the classical guitar when listening (in Granada) to a recital
of the Tarrega's student, Paco Sanz (who was also a ventriloquist). Prat
writes also that this happened at an epoque when the young Segovia was a fan
of Paco de Lucena (it seems that the story of Segovia being a son of Lucena
was already going around when Prat wrote his Diccionario). It is a fact,
however, that Segovia, even much later, did not hide his admiration for Paco
de Lucena, whose personal shining was - according to Segovia - powerfully
attractive to all women. Since then, we have no further record of Segovia's
taking formal lessons from someone, but we know for sure that, when he met
Miguel Llobet, he carefully watched his playing and he learnt from him the
notes of his (Llobet's) transcriptions from Granados. Yet to be brought to
paper, those transcriptions were memorized by the young Segovia directly
from Llobet's playing. Likely, he did not watch only the notes, during those
transmissions...

A guitarist, a teacher and a publisher who leaves in Madrid, and who leads
Ediciones Musicales Soneto, Melchor Rodriguez, told me, in private
conversations, that Segovia never revealed an important point of his youth:
when he visited Valencia (around 1915) and he had unfortunate contacts with
Tarrega's students, he was warmly acknowledged by an irregular member of
Tarrega's milieu, Salvador Garcia. According to Rodriguez, and also to other
Spanish guitarists who knew him, Garcia was actually the best student
Tarrega ever taught, an exceptional performer and also a cultivated musician
(he studied also composition with Oscar Espla). He was the son of the owner
of a hotel on the coast, called "Pancha Verda" (Green Belly). This became
the nickname of Garcia, who was taught by Tarrega when the maestro was a
guest in the hotel (it happened pretty often). Garcia did not develop a
career as a concert player - though he gave occasionally some recitals -
because he was a wealthy man and because he had some mental problem (all
those who told me about him, described him as a man who got crazy for women,
regardless of their age and beauty). However, Garcia was very friendly to
the young Segovia and he had him as a guest in his "finca", and he taught
him all the secrets of Tarrega's technique. Melchor Rodriguez was one of
Garcia's students. He told me that the best Garcia's student was José Luis
Gonzalez. My attempts to bring light of this attractive character - Salvador
Garcia - were unsuccessful: after his death, his documents were dispersed
and missed. However, Melchor told me that when he went to Santiago de
Compostela and he had his first lesson from Segovia, after he had finished
to play a piece, the maestro asked him: "Whom did you learnt from?" and,
when Melchor answered "From Salvador Garcia", Segovia felt visibly touched
and asked "Is he still alive?".

This is the state of the art regarding Segovia's life and studies before he
left Spain for the first time (1920), when he went to Argentina, where his
international career started.

ag

John Philip Dimick

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 3:18:43 AM6/3/07
to

Nice catch!

Jez

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 6:02:22 AM6/3/07
to

"John Rimmer" <jdr...@sbcglobal.nte> wrote in message
news:50n8i.6572$y_7....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

Her myspace page....

http://www.myspace.com/xuefeiyang

Must say, she looks good for 97 yrs old !

--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.

"Culture and Ideology are not your friends. Culture is the greatest barrier
to your enlightenment, your education, and your decency." - Terence McKenna

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society."- Krishnamurti


wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 9:30:59 AM6/3/07
to

Tell me how, Larry. China won't let it's currency float. How does size
change simple math.

wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 9:35:46 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 2:18 am, "ag" <angelogilard...@tin.it> wrote:
> "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:1180844683.7...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

Fascinating story, Thank you for sharing.

socrates

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:01:36 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 2, 10:27 pm, "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

No, I didn't say anything about *how* to do the exercises. You read
it into the post. Quality is necessary but not sufficient (quantity
is needed as well).

Miguel de Maria

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:23:31 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, AnneCoultersAdamsApple
> A.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

With that name you probably aren't trying to be taken seriously,
right? Of course the Asians are contemptious of Westerners. They are
extremely racist. The Japanese, however, are too polite to tell you
that... It reminds me of another story, my wife was in the mall and
she saw this white kid with a hat with Chinese symbols on it. Her
Chinese friend started cracking up. Apparently the had said "Cow",
short for Cow Eyes, what the Chinese apparently call Westerners.

Actually, if you think of an immigrant who works his ass off and tries
to get his kids to go from being dry cleaners to doctors; and sees the
American kids with their cell phones and trying to dress like
gangbangers, I can sympathize with their point of view!

Miguel de Maria

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:28:53 AM6/3/07
to
> nifty cheap TVs in the deal.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, it's imperial tribute. It's what a dying empire does in its last
stages of life--stops producing and just sucks off countries who are
making things... China and America are so connected, that to sever it
would be disastrous for both! But they are on the rise, while we
decay.

AnneCoultersAdamsApple

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:53:45 AM6/3/07
to
> gangbangers, I can sympathize with their point of view!- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Miguel,

Don't take my comments any less serious just because of an obviously
silly, logon id.

Rather than be another ineffectual pundant, work to change America.
Tell the kids what the symbols mean and why they might consider
another hat. Get active in politics to get rid of as many right
wingers who mindlessly chant "the free market will solve all".
Realize that some businesses need to be non-profit, like TV news
organizations, hospitals, UNIVERSITIES, Healthcare. Let everyone know
that Americans subsidize the profits of pharmaceutical companies who
MUST sell drugs to other countries at a deep discount. Get the word
out to as many people as possible that China, India, and many other
countries educate the best and the brightest almost for free. We have
an obscene number of pundants spouting the problems but ignoring
everyone with a possible solution.

And the phrase "American kids" usually means "white" and I'm getting
very tired of it, and weary of being understanding and obsequious to
everybody who was shitting and pissing in a hole in the ground up
until last year (not meaning you). I'm far left of center but if
people don't like the "white" part of America, stay the f*ck out and
away. We can all descend into self-destructive tribalism if pushed.

A

Lare

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:23:48 PM6/3/07
to
Trying covert motor routine acceleration would be done after all the
mechanical and musicianship fundamentals (including rhythmic understanding)
are in place, and the student still couldn't play fast. Also, the fingering
for both hands needs to be precise. While some of the right hand stuff is
automatic, fast or tricky sections need to have specific R.H. fingerings if
covert motor control acceleration is to work. If the student doesn't have
control of the fingering, the fingering is out of control, and the brain
can't practice specific motor movement commands. Jackson's teacher is
absolutely correct. Speed comes from control. I wonder who this teacher
is?

All of us can wiggle our fingers fast. We're not training the fingers, we're
training the mind.

Larry McDonald (Lare the 1st)
Lare is pronounced LAH-ray, as in the solfege "la-re", "A" down to "D". I
often work this figure into the final measures of pieces I write, like a
signature on a painting. A Sicilian composer friend of mine gave me this
name. My wife calls me "Lair". She has yet to call me a "liar".

"Larry Deack" <cg...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:AGs8i.12988$296....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Miguel de Maria

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:28:42 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 8:53 am, AnneCoultersAdamsApple
> A- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Wow, what a post! I think I agree with your 1st paragraph and am not
sure what to say about the 2nd. The East has a factory of engineers
and doctors. We bring them over here for awhile and then send them
back because of anti-immigration laws! Our greatest strength was that
we could take the best and brightest and keep them in our country, now
we want to kick them out because of blind xenophobia and racism. So
they're learning from us and then setting up shop home to be our
eventual rivals. But hey, we're building a fence on our southern
border.

I'm sure you realize that the white part of America is only a part
now. Like it or not, we're no longer a mostly homogeneous country of
Puritans who are united in burning witches and killing Indians. We're
becoming browner by the minute! You can go white supremacist on us,
or just realize that real life demographics are more powerful than
artificial distinctions like states or nations (rather recent
historical inventions, actually). The colonists didn't like the
Germans, who didn't like the Irish, who didn't like the Polish, who
don't like the Chinese, who don't like the Vietnamese...etc. etc.
It's understandable for a member of the ruling class to be protective
of his status, but impotent rage won't change a thing. Better relax
and adjust to reality, perhaps you can even benefit from it.

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:05:14 PM6/3/07
to
Lare wrote:
> Trying covert motor routine acceleration would be done after all the
> mechanical and musicianship fundamentals (including rhythmic understanding)
> are in place, and the student still couldn't play fast. Also, the fingering
> for both hands needs to be precise. While some of the right hand stuff is
> automatic, fast or tricky sections need to have specific R.H. fingerings if
> covert motor control acceleration is to work. If the student doesn't have
> control of the fingering, the fingering is out of control, and the brain
> can't practice specific motor movement commands. Jackson's teacher is
> absolutely correct. Speed comes from control. I wonder who this teacher
> is?
>
> All of us can wiggle our fingers fast. We're not training the fingers, we're
> training the mind.

Thanks. I have a bit of a problem with the "control" stuff since
some who say this can't play fast at all but it's more about what we can
do and not how we talk about it. Hope you can post some music one of
these days.

AnneCoultersAdamsApple

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:21:01 PM6/3/07
to
> and adjust to reality, perhaps you can even benefit from it.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -
.
.

> and doctors. We bring them over here for awhile and then send them
> back because of anti-immigration laws! Our greatest strength was that
> we could take the best and brightest and keep them in our country, now
> we want to kick them out because of blind xenophobia and racism.

Not even close. High Tech and Science workers are brought here and
most never leave. Their children are American citizens. They become
citizens and bring their families over to go right on SS. The only
people being kicked out are Hispanics, not Chinese, East Indians,
Arabs, etc.

What you don't see is the connection with the high cost of a college
degree here, the low cost of a college degree "there", and the fact
that American and multinational companies who want no/low taxes and
want to constantly import high tech and science professionals. The
perfect corporate circular argument - remove the ability of Americans
to get expensive college educations in ALL areas of study, especially
in the sciences, then say America doesn't have the expertise to do
anything and we MUST import workers and outsource jobs.

Some East Indian and Chinese workers leave here and go back to their
native country and manage and staff the outsourcing companies. We
outsource to Mexico, East India, China, Southeast Asia, Malaysia, but
still import workers from these countries. The complexity starts to
become clear when I get an email that the link to Hanoi is down or the
staff in India can't access a shared data server in the US.

Am I correct to assume you have never trained someone from India or
China or Mexico to take over your high tech job as you prepare to be
unemployed? I am relaxed because I have already learned something
from all this - it is still the fight for survival; still the survival
of the fittest, whether individual, family, group, nationality,
ethnicity. Doesn't sound pretty so you hope to hell I'm wrong and
just a lunatic. I'm with you, I hope I'm just a lunatic who is
misreading the writing on the wall.

Reality is so far removed from the buzzwords of xenophobia and
racism. Reality is many groups want it to be the white peoples'
"turn" at the bottom. It's not a question of homogeneity; it's the
reality of many groups who today believe they cannot be racist or
prejudiced.

The future is not going to be bright; loose the shades.

A.

Miguel de Maria

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:43:00 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 10:21 am, AnneCoultersAdamsApple

I understand that the American standard of living, esp. for the
dominant race, will fall. Not the most savory prospect, but what
could possibly be done about it? Are you suggesting that closing our
borders and banning talented Asians from emigrating is the answer...?
If you do this, we'll be the South :) Obviously you have been through
some tough times, but if you look at our society, you see decadence
and laziness, our legacy from the boomers. The other guys are working
hard, studying their asses off, while we diddle with our playstations
and watch crime dramas. Xenophobic measures won't take us back to the
time of our youth and energy, when the bounteous continent spread
before us and there was no competition. It's actually the natural
life cycle of an empire.

No one stays on top forever. I think if we look at countries like
Greece, Italy, and the UK, we get some taste of what is in store for
us. Although unprecedented size of the US does make it hard to
predict how it could play out. Maybe the East and West Coast will
splinter off and leave a cultural void in the middle.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/bljesusland.htm

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:43:06 PM6/3/07
to
AnneCoultersAdamsApple wrote:
> Not even close. High Tech and Science workers are brought here and
> most never leave. Their children are American citizens. They become
> citizens and bring their families over to go right on SS. The only
> people being kicked out are Hispanics, not Chinese, East Indians,
> Arabs, etc.


The father of one of my best students just had an appointment with
immigration last Thursday after living here 11 years. I sure hope you
are right that they won't get kicked out. They are Korean.

Most of my students are Asian and most are not citizens. None are on
SS and every single family works long and hard to give their kids the
best education they can get. The JOB of the kids is the learn and they
take learning very seriously.

BTW, in the 90's I also worked as a software engineer with
immigrants from China, Korea, Japan, France, English...

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:46:25 PM6/3/07
to
Miguel de Maria wrote:
> No one stays on top forever.

Don't tell Wolly that. He thinks China is just another Japan.

John Nguyen

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 2:12:18 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 1:21 pm, AnneCoultersAdamsApple

<annecoultersadamsap...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> They become
> citizens and bring their families over to go right on SS.
>

I take exception to this statement. My family and all our friends &
acquaintances work our asses off to PAY for SS. Who can live on SS
anyway? One can do almost anything in the country to be much better
off than living on SS. I'm surprised this types of stereotype and
generalization are still rampant.

John

Lare

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Jun 3, 2007, 2:47:52 PM6/3/07
to

"Larry Deack" <cg...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:exC8i.562$tb6...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Me too. I'm 10 months into my 18 month rehab on my arm (chainsaw accident).
I can play about a half hour a day, but like R. Spross said, it is taking
time. My flexors are working well, and all the slurs are fast again.
Fatigue is still the issue but I should be able to do some recording soon.
I'm sure it wont be pretty. I've done some speed work recently and I was
able to play rough "i-m" scales, 16ths at 132-138 bpm, which is slower than
where I was before, but I don't think my speed will be too far gone. I'll
post an example when I can so y'all can critique my progress.

Lare


wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 2:50:03 PM6/3/07
to

No iI don't. China has about a 0 percent probability of getting to
that level.

wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 3:01:22 PM6/3/07
to

I am amazed that people can come to this country from a refugee camp
and be making $100,000+ in 20 years, while the "natives" piss and moan
about how unfair things are.

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 3:01:32 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> No iI don't

We are both making a lot of typos these days :-)

Wait until the Olympics.

Did you ever figure out Dodec-accounting connection?

There is another connection with the upcoming Olympics in China. Even
the Olympic symbol has a connection.

Hope one day you can post something you play.

Miguel de Maria

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 3:03:57 PM6/3/07
to

Wolly, I'm interested in how you see things playing out then, over the
next 50 years.

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 3:28:36 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> I am amazed that people can come to this country from a refugee camp
> and be making $100,000+ in 20 years,

Why? It's not hard to make money if that's all you want to do. There
are a lot of idiots who make a lot more than that by kissing butts.
Compare that to what some posters here have done with their life.

> while the "natives" piss and moan about how unfair things are.

Wollybuddy, you got to get over this obsession with money. Life is
not all about money. It's confusing you about what is important. Play
that guitar and stop counting your money all the time.

Jackson K. Eskew

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 3:31:40 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 12:18 am, "ag" <angelogilard...@tin.it> wrote:
> "Jackson K. Eskew" <jacksones...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:1180844683.7...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

Thanks for sharing all this, ag. It seems clear that Segovia was in
fact not self-taught. His experience with Garcia alone had to have
been invaluable.

What do you recommend as the best Segovia biography? Also, the best
book on the classical guitar world in general?

ag

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 5:04:02 PM6/3/07
to

"Jackson K. Eskew" <jackso...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1180899100.7...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

> This is the state of the art regarding Segovia's life and studies before
> he
> left Spain for the first time (1920), when he went to Argentina, where his
> international career started.
>
> ag

Thanks for sharing all this, ag. It seems clear that Segovia was in
fact not self-taught. His experience with Garcia alone had to have
been invaluable.

What do you recommend as the best Segovia biography? Also, the best
book on the classical guitar world in general?

---------

A complete Segovia biography has yet to be written. Those currently
available are more or less interesting, accurate and useful, but none is
complete.
I believe that the best books about classical guitar are those works
dedicated to one historical figure or subject, in a monographic form.
Heck-Giuliani,
Jeffery-Sor, Ophee-Boccherini-de Fossa, Wynberg-Zani de Ferranti,
Rius-Tarrega, Intelisano-Mozzani, Romanillos-Torres, etc.

As a source of quick information about guitarists, composers, etc., the
Enciclopedia de la Guitarra written by Francisco Herrera and published by
Pilo, Spain, is a good text.
It is available both on paper (four volumes) and in CD rom. It is the most
accurate and complete dictionary of guitarists available. It is written in
Spanish.

ag


wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 5:07:12 PM6/3/07
to

As usual, you've missed the point.

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 5:44:10 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> As usual, you've missed the point.

The first person to say the other missed their point has missed the point.

It's not about money, it's about art. That's why Bill Gates can buy
Da Vinci's notebooks and put up digital displays of art in his mansion
and still not get what Da Vinci is about.

wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 6:42:46 PM6/3/07
to

It's a flat world as they say. Do you know, after trade agreements,
the number one driving force behind the export of manufacturing jobs
is the humble pallet?
Right now, China is exporting $3 per day labor (Mexico export labor
too, they just send bodys), yet only 10% of the population
participates in this. Picture a situation where it's closer to 100%.
Does the world have the resources? If the cost of labor goes up, will
India or Africa be the next big thing?
Economic disparity, the difference in incomes, between people in a
society is a primary driver of social unrest. China had over 70,000
incidents last year. Can they continue on before they have a
revolution?
They have the worst pollution on the face of the earth. People are
already dieing of respiratory disease in fairly significant numbers.
can they sustain their growth rate without addressing this problem?
At some point, the will have to let their currency float, to not do
this is to accept less and less for what they sell. When they do, It
will impact the price of export rather dramatically. You can't keep
that cork in the bottle for ever.
intellectual property is the source of wealth. Can they make that
jump? I don't think that system is geared for that for a number of
reasons.
I don't see the US in decline, the numbers don't support it.
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/5584933

The economy is sure different than it was 30 years ago, I've seen that
first hand.

The next 50 years? who knows. More specialization. I think Immigration
is one of the great strengths of our system, along with a relatively
clean government, system of laws and relatively high degree of
freedom. People with a sense of entitlement make me nervous about the
future.

wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 6:47:33 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 2:01 pm, Larry Deack <c...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> wollybird wrote:
> > No iI don't
>
> We are both making a lot of typos these days :-)
>
> Wait until the Olympics.

It's a great system for the production of athletes and classical
musicians. I had a friend who grew up in Checoslovikia. His job was to
play Hockey for 8 hours per day


>
> Did you ever figure out Dodec-accounting connection?

Nope


>
> There is another connection with the upcoming Olympics in China. Even
> the Olympic symbol has a connection.
>
> Hope one day you can post something you play.


You are probably the only one

Robert Crim

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 6:49:46 PM6/3/07
to
On Sun, 3 Jun 2007 23:04:02 +0200, "ag" <angelog...@tin.it>
wrote:

>A complete Segovia biography has yet to be written. Those currently
>available are more or less interesting, accurate and useful, but none is
>complete.

Dare I suggest that you might be the one to write such a biography?
In your spare time, of course.

Robert

wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 6:55:06 PM6/3/07
to

Larry, no money, no art.
I doubt too many refugees worry about composition.

Nicodemus

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 7:34:08 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 2:04 pm, "ag" <angelogilard...@tin.it> wrote:

> A complete Segovia biography has yet to be written. Those currently
> available are more or less interesting, accurate and useful, but none is
> complete.
> I believe that the best books about classical guitar are those works
> dedicated to one historical figure or subject, in a monographic form.
> Heck-Giuliani,
> Jeffery-Sor, Ophee-Boccherini-de Fossa, Wynberg-Zani de Ferranti,
> Rius-Tarrega, Intelisano-Mozzani, Romanillos-Torres, etc.
>
> As a source of quick information about guitarists, composers, etc., the
> Enciclopedia de la Guitarra written by Francisco Herrera and published by
> Pilo, Spain, is a good text.
> It is available both on paper (four volumes) and in CD rom. It is the most
> accurate and complete dictionary of guitarists available. It is written in
> Spanish.
>
> ag

Thanks ag. Is it true that Segovia was a monarchist? This might cause
him to become my favorite player.

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 8:22:49 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> Larry, no money, no art.

You mean there was no art before there was money?

wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 8:40:26 PM6/3/07
to

There was no art before there was food shelter and warmth. Money is
just a medium of exchange, Larry.

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 8:53:48 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> There was no art before there was food shelter and warmth.

There ya go!

> Money is just a medium of exchange, Larry.

Well, Wollybuddy, I think most people would disagree with you on this
one. If that was all money was why do people who have food shelter and
warmth kill other people to get more money? I'll give you another formula:

Money = life and death power over other people.

Follow the money.

John Nguyen

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 9:20:01 PM6/3/07
to

Let's look at it at a different perspective. When I came here, I
worked my tail off to get the security for my family, not so much as
amassing money and fortune. When you go several days with a couple of
potatoes for your family to eat, you'll learn quickly to find some
mean of security when you have a chance. Here, opportunity is still
plenty, knock on wood. And I have learned well enough to understand
that opportunity will not be here forever. So I will work hard to save
for rainy days and to provide the best possible education for my kids
so they can create their own opportunities. I can tell you money comes
in very handy for those purposes. For me, it's more as to what you do
with the money than the sake of having it. I'm pretty sure the older
generations of immigrants looked at it that way too, although I
confess that myknowledge on history is rather limited.

So if you're happy with what you got, that's great! But it's not wrong
for others to make money to fullfill one's goals in life.
Cheers,

John

Raptor

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Jun 3, 2007, 9:47:25 PM6/3/07
to
Money=options. More money =more options. Too much money=moral
burdens.

As for art, I live in the high desert of southern NM. The mountains 1
mile behind my house are filled with petroglyphs rendered about 1000
years ago by the indigenous people. Sure am glad they had enough
food, warmth and shelter to take time out for graffitti. Not sure
whether they had money, though.

mark

wollybird

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Jun 3, 2007, 9:49:38 PM6/3/07
to

That is the American experience, John. And it just pisses Larry off.

Nicodemus

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Jun 3, 2007, 9:52:19 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 6:47 pm, Raptor <mpdan...@msn.com> wrote:

> Money=options. More money =more options. Too much money=moral
> burdens.


Yes. Aristotle covered all this very well. I recommend his Nicomachean
Ethics.

Raptor

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Jun 3, 2007, 10:21:56 PM6/3/07
to

Yes Jackson. I've a passing familiarity with the work. Most of us
are also familiar with the fact poor technique practiced quickly and
repeatedly does not make for quality progress. But carry on, Champ.
The RMCG wouldn't be the same without the house pedagogue.

mark

Larry Deack

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Jun 3, 2007, 10:23:42 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> And it just pisses Larry off.

What pisses me off is that there are more than enough resources in
this world for everybody yet people die every day for lack of the basics
in life.

wollybird

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 10:48:49 PM6/3/07
to

No doubt you are familiar with Maslow's heirarchy of needs.It's a
pretty simple concept.

Larry Deack

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Jun 3, 2007, 10:49:14 PM6/3/07
to
Raptor wrote:
> Money = options.
> More money = more options.
> Too much money = moral burdens.

I like this. Thanks.

BTW, in the book "This is your brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin
he mentions The Sesotho (South Africa) verb for singing (ho bina), like
in other languages (maybe rapa nui?) also means dance since there is no
distinction between the two. They assume that singing involves moving
your body. I doubt that Baroque music would make as much sense to them
as it does to us.

John Nguyen

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Jun 3, 2007, 10:53:17 PM6/3/07
to

That's so sad but true. People even died in this country for lack of
the baics! But the dollar is still carry a long way in other countries
if you want to help. Your one-hour guitar teaching fee can make a
difference in surviving or starving to death for some kids in Africa!
Not that I ask you to solve the world's hunger, but there are
"options" we can help.
Cheers,

John

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 10:57:39 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> No doubt you are familiar with
> Maslow's heirarchy of needs.It's a
> pretty simple concept.

Notice that money is not listed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

I once wrote a paper in college on Maslow's address to some music
teachers. The textbook we were using for the child development class
didn't have the top layer but it was clear from his speech that he felt
that psychologists and music teachers were both trying to help others to
become self-actualized.

Larry Deack

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:13:08 PM6/3/07
to
John Nguyen wrote:
> That's so sad but true. People even died in this country for lack of
> the baics! But the dollar is still carry a long way in other countries
> if you want to help.

There are many ways to help. Some people write poems.

> Your one-hour guitar teaching fee can make a
> difference in surviving or starving to death for some kids in Africa!

Direct dollar donations are not the only way to help. I believe in
Open Source collaborative solutions that distribute wealth rather than
centralize it. It empowers people so they don't have to kiss ass to some
asshole just to get something to eat.

> Not that I ask you to solve the world's hunger, but there are
> "options" we can help.

The best option to me is to stop thinking that aggressive
capitalism is the only way to solve problems. Engineers can do a lot
more than feed a few people by using their skills to help others. This
is what I think this software revolution is all about.

I also believe that art and music are not optional if we want a
compassionate world and that's why I also teach music to young people
who may have a chance to really change things.

wollybird

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Jun 3, 2007, 11:21:08 PM6/3/07
to

Larry, you are hard to get through to. substitute the word "money" for
"stuff". Food, clothes, shelter.
http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/Money/Money.html
sheesh!

John Nguyen

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:33:06 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 11:13 pm, Larry Deack <c...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> John Nguyen wrote:
> > That's so sad but true. People even died in this country for lack of
> > the baics! But the dollar is still carry a long way in other countries
> > if you want to help.
>
> There are many ways to help. Some people write poems.

Let's look at the basics. Poems are nice, but they can't help you fill
your stomach.

> > Your one-hour guitar teaching fee can make a
> > difference in surviving or starving to death for some kids in Africa!
>
> Direct dollar donations are not the only way to help. I believe in
> Open Source collaborative solutions that distribute wealth rather than
> centralize it. It empowers people so they don't have to kiss ass to some
> asshole just to get something to eat.

Open source means nothing to poor people. If they need software, they
will pirate it. Not that i condone it, but it's a fact. By the way,
how do you distribute wealth? By handling out to people?

> > Not that I ask you to solve the world's hunger, but there are
> > "options" we can help.
>
> The best option to me is to stop thinking that aggressive
> capitalism is the only way to solve problems. Engineers can do a lot
> more than feed a few people by using their skills to help others. This
> is what I think this software revolution is all about.

There are many ways to skin a cat. The important thing is that
everyone tries to do something to help. I don't underestimate the
impact you may have with your thinking, it's just that there are many
basic needs, and everything helps.

> I also believe that art and music are not optional if we want a
> compassionate world and that's why I also teach music to young people
> who may have a chance to really change things.

It may surprise you, but poor folks don't need hand-me-down art and
music from famous people. They have their own art with their drawings
and poems, and they whistle their own songs. Not until they started to
have all the basics in life before they contemplate arts from others.
Cheers,

John

Larry Deack

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Jun 3, 2007, 11:39:53 PM6/3/07
to
wollybird wrote:
> Larry, you are hard to get through to.

So are you :-)

> substitute the word "money" for "stuff". Food, clothes, shelter.

It doesn't work that way but you keep insisting it does. Some
cultures have no need for money and they still manage to have food,
clothing and shelter.

Money is about leverage. There are wage slaves and people who are
leveraged. You and I are leveraged but many people on this globe live
hand to mouth and have no options.

Money = Power

You can get a lot more than stuff for money. You can kill people,
wipe out whole nations, change the life of a wage slave in an instant,
write your own laws (Mickey Mouse copyright law for example), own a
whole county... all if you just have enough... money. Food, clothes and
shelter have very little to do with having a lot of money.

> http://www.ingrimayne.com/econ/Money/Money.html
> sheesh!

Thanks. Notice this:

"Economic activity can take place without money."

And this:

"The invention of money makes trading easier."

Yeah, easier to cheat others out of everything they own.

Larry Deack

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Jun 3, 2007, 11:59:21 PM6/3/07
to
John Nguyen wrote:
> Let's look at the basics. Poems are nice,
> but they can't help you fill your stomach.

A little history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcia_Lorca

Sometime I feel guilty about these setups :-)

There are many more examples of how art has played a critical role in
exposing corrupt governments. The first thing a new government does is
destroy the art of the previous culture and there is a good reason for that.

> Open source means nothing to poor people.

The Internet is run mostly on Open Source software. If it was run by
WinBlows it would crash every ten seconds.

> By the way, how do you distribute wealth?

By giving them tools so they don't end up sixteen tons in debt. It's
simple really. No need for politics.

> There are many ways to skin a cat.

Some work better than others.

> The important thing is that everyone tries to do something to help.

I like that.

> I don't underestimate the impact you may have with
> your thinking, it's just that there are many
> basic needs, and everything helps.

Everybody should share in the wealth they help create though their
daily work. The truth is that few of us get the chance to leverage our
position in life.

> It may surprise you, but poor folks don't
> need hand-me-down art and music from famous people.

Doesn't surprise me at all. In fact I'm right there with you on that
one. When did I say otherwise? I prefer local live music to the mass
produced recorded crap we spend 30 billion a year on.

> They have their own art with their drawings and poems,
> and they whistle their own songs. Not until they started to
> have all the basics in life before they contemplate arts from others.

Not sure what got you off on that.

Miguel de Maria

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Jun 4, 2007, 12:03:06 AM6/4/07
to

Money = Power. Larry, we live in a society where we are free to have
these high-minded thoughts, but 95% of the people who have lived were
probably just trying to get by, and would do so via capitalism,
communism, using-a-club-ism, or whatever. The thing is, it can all be
taken away so easily. My mother-in-law grew up upper class in
Manchuria and Korea, and her father lost his fortune twice and then
gave up. They ended up living on a spot they had originally bought to
use as their burial area! Your comments about money refer only to
uncivilized (using the word non-pejoratively) societies. Agrarian
life is not some sort of Eden. It should say something that despite
the horrors of the factories in China, the rurals that go there all
say that it's easy!


Larry Deack

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Jun 4, 2007, 12:16:34 AM6/4/07
to
Miguel de Maria wrote:
> Money = Power. Larry, we live in a society where we are free to have
> these high-minded thoughts, but 95% of the people who have lived were
> probably just trying to get by, and would do so via capitalism,
> communism, using-a-club-ism, or whatever. The thing is, it can all be
> taken away so easily. My mother-in-law grew up upper class in
> Manchuria and Korea, and her father lost his fortune twice and then
> gave up. They ended up living on a spot they had originally bought to
> use as their burial area!


> Your comments about money refer only to
> uncivilized (using the word non-pejoratively) societies.

Money = Power -- refers to this culture. Not getting you here.

> Agrarian life is not some sort of Eden.

Never said it was.

> It should say something that despite
> the horrors of the factories in China, the rurals that go there all
> say that it's easy!

Not sure what you are reading in my posts but I don't disagree with
what you say. Life can be taken away easily too.

ag

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Jun 4, 2007, 1:05:36 AM6/4/07
to

"Robert Crim" <frit...@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:q9h663tcshjc8gcfv...@4ax.com...

Several publishers believe the same, and expect me doing this. I could, yes,
but I will not, and with a good reason.
Segovia, in the second half of his life, became a strict friend of a man
living at Linares (his native town). This man - now around 90 years old - is
not a musician, but a retired employee of a local factory, a very
intelligent guy who devoted his life to his friendship with Segovia. He
accumulated an incredible amount of material and first hand informations
about Segovia, his life and his career. A big part of this material was
passed to him by Segovia himself. Alberto Lopez Poveda - this is his name -
owes all the documents regarding Segovia, even the minor ones, including the
tickets of his travels, the bills of the hotels where he spent his nights,
the appearently least significant things...And since many years he is
writing Segovia's biography, which is now almost completed. It would be very
unfair of me to cross his way, or to enter in a competition with his
project, with a biography of my own. Such a biography is, in a way, the
conclusion of the efforts of a life, whilst for me it would be just one work
more in the catalogue of my output. He has to look for a publisher, whilst I
receive all times offers of publishers who are interested to publish my
music and everything I could write: I have a list of commissions for new
pieces for and with guitar that embraces at least the next five years, and I
am currently writing a concerto for guitar and orchestra which I promised
six years ago. So, the Segovia biography cannot be my task. However,
thankyou for the suggestion.

ag

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