RH Question for the Experts

[John Nguyen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WYhWy5OqgM&feature=plcp

In this video, Alice Artzt recommended to have the knuckles aligned
with the string being played (from 2:45 to 3:45).

Do you think this position helping or impeding the speed when one
wants to play fast passages???

I have observed a number of videos of fast players, but I would like
to hear your opinions on this.
Thanks,

John

[dougla...@gmail.com]

Hi John,
For free stroke, this is absolutely dead on and pretty much the position of my right hand. Now, we will have to wait an hear what the experts have to say!

Doug

[Murdick]

On Sunday, July 15, 2012 11:47:51 AM UTC-5, John Nguyen wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WYhWy5OqgM&feature=plcp

>
> In this video, Alice Artzt recommended to have the knuckles aligned
> with the string being played (from 2:45 to 3:45).
>
> Do you think this position helping or impeding the speed when one
> wants to play fast passages???
>
> I have observed a number of videos of fast players, but I would like
> to hear your opinions on this.
> Thanks,
>
> John

I've watched this video before with some interest. She is right about the basic strokes, but I think the bent wrist will cause problems for most people. Since there is no advantage in the parallel knuckles concept, I wouldn't advise it.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Segovia said that too, but it is bad advice. When
he gave up on it a few minutes into his concerts,
his tone improved greatly, every time.

The line of motion of the finger crossing the string should
not be perfectly perpendicular to it. It should be a
realistic compromise with the angle at which the
thumb crosses the string. Otherwise, the angle of
the thumb crossing the string will be doubled and it
will be sufficient to affect speed negatively, or the
hand will move with the thumb.

Pronation of the hand and arm minimizes both angles, but
it cannot eliminate them.

This is a clear case of "Do as I say, don't do as
I do." You should always keep your eyes wide open
in such cases, as I am happy to say I did.

Some performers, like
Barbosa-Lima, do exactly as they say, but every time I
saw that guy he had a different act, so you would have
to hear him play and hear him talk about it
on the same day.
;-)

Regards, daveA

--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: d.raleig...@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:40:22 -0700, Murdick wrote:

> On Sunday, July 15, 2012 11:47:51 AM UTC-5, John Nguyen wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WYhWy5OqgM&feature=plcp
>>
>> In this video, Alice Artzt recommended to have the knuckles aligned
>> with the string being played (from 2:45 to 3:45).
>>
>> Do you think this position helping or impeding the speed when one wants
>> to play fast passages???
>>
>> I have observed a number of videos of fast players, but I would like to
>> hear your opinions on this.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>

Since there is no advantage in the parallel knuckles
concept, I wouldn't advise it.

That is particularly well put. Regards, daveA

[dougla...@gmail.com]

Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.

[Murdick]

On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.

I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students. Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.

[Fadosolrélamisi]

On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:

> > Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.
>
> I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students. Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.

Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover, concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.

Alain

[Murdick]

On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:27:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:

> > On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> > > Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.
> >
> > I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students. Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.

>
> Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover, concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.
>
> Alain

Of course one could play a chord with and inefficient motion.

[Cactus Wren]

It seems that by closing the hand into a fist, you can get a decent
model for chord-playing and, generally, finger motion, no?

[Murdick]

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:03:54 AM UTC-5, Cactus Wren wrote:
> On Jul 18, 5:12 am, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:27:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> > > > > Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.
> > > >
> > > > I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students.   Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.
> >
> > > Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover, concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.
> >
> > > Alain
> >
> > Of course one could play a chord with and inefficient motion.

>
> It seems that by closing the hand into a fist, you can get a decent
> model for chord-playing and, generally, finger motion, no?

I teach it that way if the student has trouble with follow through.

[Fadosolrélamisi]

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:26:10 AM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:03:54 AM UTC-5, Cactus Wren wrote:

> > On Jul 18, 5:12 am, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:27:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> > > > > > Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students.   Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.
> > >
> > > > Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover, concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.
> > >
> > > > Alain
> > >
> > > Of course one could play a chord with and inefficient motion.
> >
> > It seems that by closing the hand into a fist, you can get a decent
> > model for chord-playing and, generally, finger motion, no?

>
> I teach it that way if the student has trouble with follow through.

The faster you play the shorter is the follow through thus the importance of practicing the quick release and return to the string as thought by Pavel Steidl in his exercise (on the video I posted a few weeks ago). Ajusting the fingers when plucking chords is a good way to feel the hand, the finger tip touch, and the muscles in the arm. Soon to die ... the E-F-G approach on the first strg!

Alain

[David Raleigh Arnold]

The main thing for the RH in DGT chord practice
is RH muting so that all
voices end cleanly and simultaneously. While DGT
chords fulfil all your specifications, that
particular practice, which you fail to mention,
is not addressed by any
other technical exercise. The ability
to control the ends of notes is why the guitar is an orchestra and
the piano isn't. That is one
reason that I recommend staccato for DGT chords.
It is to clean up the ends of chords in your playing.

Practice in "bringing out" can only be *polished* in
music, because it can only be practiced to excellence
when there is a real voice to bring out. Getting a
start on it can of course be done with any chord
exercise, and should be. Of course you have to
start somewhere.

You would find DGT chords very beneficial. If you
were practicing them, I doubt you would have written
your message as you did.

[Fadosolrélamisi]

On Thursday, July 19, 2012 6:10:26 PM UTC-7, daveA wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:27:15 -0700, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
>

> > On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> >> On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote: > Yes,
> >> Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are
> >> plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the
> >> part of the video I agree with.
> >>
> >> I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being
> >> played" idea even though I've used those exact words many
> >> times with students. Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free
> >> stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over
> >> flexed for most people I think.
> >
> > Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance
> > of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for
> > verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would
> > be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord
> > plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice
> > routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of
> > positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being
> > one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover,
> > concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance
> > (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.
> >
> > Alain

>
> The main thing for the RH in DGT chord practice
> is RH muting so that all
> voices end cleanly and simultaneously. While DGT
> chords fulfil all your specifications, that
> particular practice, which you fail to mention,
> is not addressed by any
> other technical exercise.

Sor # 9 ...

The ability
> to control the ends of notes is why the guitar is an orchestra and

> the piano isn't. That is one

> reason that I recommend staccato for DGT chords.
> It is to clean up the ends of chords in your playing.
>

> Practice in "bringing out" can only be *polished* in

> music, because it can only be practiced to excellence
> when there is a real voice to bring out.

Sor # 18 ...

Getting a
> start on it can of course be done with any chord
> exercise, and should be. Of course you have to
> start somewhere.
>
> You would find DGT chords very beneficial. If you
> were practicing them, I doubt you would have written
> your message as you did.
> Regards, daveA
>
> --
> Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
> Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: d.raleig...@gmail.com

> Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

[Murdick]

On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:53:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:26:10 AM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:

> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:03:54 AM UTC-5, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > > On Jul 18, 5:12 am, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:27:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> > > > > > > Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students.   Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.
> > > >
> > > > > Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover, concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.
> > > >
> > > > > Alain
> > > >
> > > > Of course one could play a chord with and inefficient motion.
> > >
> > > It seems that by closing the hand into a fist, you can get a decent
> > > model for chord-playing and, generally, finger motion, no?
> >
> > I teach it that way if the student has trouble with follow through.

>
> The faster you play the shorter is the follow through thus the importance of practicing the quick release and return to the string as thought by Pavel Steidl in his exercise (on the video I posted a few weeks ago). Ajusting the fingers when plucking chords is a good way to feel the hand, the finger tip touch, and the muscles in the arm. Soon to die ... the E-F-G approach on the first strg!
>
> Alain

The shorter the follow through, the less energy is put into the stroke and the less volume you will get. Speed is not the problem and neither is the speed of the release. The finger will return naturally fast enough. What you don't want to do is to make a habit of following through too much.

[Fadosolrélamisi]

On Thursday, July 19, 2012 8:48:48 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:53:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:

> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:26:10 AM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:03:54 AM UTC-5, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > > > On Jul 18, 5:12 am, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:27:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> > > > > > > > Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students.   Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover, concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Alain
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course one could play a chord with and inefficient motion.

> > > >

> > > > It seems that by closing the hand into a fist, you can get a decent
> > > > model for chord-playing and, generally, finger motion, no?
> > >
> > > I teach it that way if the student has trouble with follow through.
> >
> > The faster you play the shorter is the follow through thus the importance of practicing the quick release and return to the string as thought by Pavel Steidl in his exercise (on the video I posted a few weeks ago). Ajusting the fingers when plucking chords is a good way to feel the hand, the finger tip touch, and the muscles in the arm. Soon to die ... the E-F-G approach on the first strg!
> >
> > Alain
>
> The shorter the follow through, the less energy is put into the stroke and the less volume you will get. Speed is not the problem and neither is the speed of the release. The finger will return naturally fast enough. What you don't want to do is to make a habit of following through too much.

I agree. I think that the exercise given by Pavel Streidl has exactly this objective: minimizing the follow through by returning (and stopping) quickly to the strg.

Alain

[gtrman%...@gtempaccount.com]

DGT?

Charlie

[Murdick]

On Friday, July 20, 2012 5:31:00 AM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> DGT?
>
> Charlie

What is DGT and where can I see the Streidl video?

[John Nguyen]

On Jul 20, 6:31 am, gtrman%tds....@gtempaccount.com wrote:
> DGT?
>
> Charlie

DGT = Don't Go There!!

[Cactus Wren]

> > Site:http://www.openguitar.com(()) eMail: d.raleigh.arn...@gmail.com
> > Contact:http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

Alain, you know what, I hate #18. It is just too hard for me! #19
really feels like an easy Carcassi study after that monster.

[Cactus Wren]

Does the follow through cause the energy or does the energy cause the
follow through? Does the cart push the horse or does the horse pull
the cart?

[David Raleigh Arnold]

DGT:
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html

[dougla...@gmail.com]

Who has DGT worked for? Who are your success stories?

[Murdick]

On Friday, July 20, 2012 1:19:47 PM UTC-5, Cactus Wren wrote:
> On Jul 19, 8:48 pm, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 5:53:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:26:10 AM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:03:54 AM UTC-5, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 18, 5:12 am, Murdick <lutem...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:27:15 PM UTC-5, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 4:04:38 PM UTC-7, Murdick wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, July 16, 2012 12:12:56 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Yes, Kent I agree, no bent wrist. The knuckle over top of the string you are plucking is particularly good for an effective free stroke. That is the part of the video I agree with.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'd even be careful of the "knuckle over the string being played" idea even though I've used those exact words many times with students.   Certainly, it is an easy way to teach the free stroke and some play successfully this way, but it is a little bit over flexed for most people I think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Logically (but I have to concede that, that could just be an appearance of logic, thus my cautious approach in deduction here and asking for verification of this reasoning) the best position for free stroke would be the one adopted by all the fingers when they pluck a chord. Chord plucking would then become an important element of a daily practice routine as it would provide the RH with strength and security of positioning, the position of plucking all fingers simultaneously being one that is easily felt as being correct or incorrect. Moreover, concentrating on bringing one voice out of the chord would enhance (dynamic) control and sensibility to the fingertip touch.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Alain
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course one could play a chord with and inefficient motion.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems that by closing the hand into a fist, you can get a decent
> > > > > model for chord-playing and, generally, finger motion, no?
> > > >
> > > > I teach it that way if the student has trouble with follow through.
> >
> > > The faster you play the shorter is the follow through thus the importance of practicing the quick release and return to the string as thought by Pavel Steidl in his exercise (on the video I posted a few weeks ago). Ajusting the fingers when plucking chords is a good way to feel the hand, the finger tip touch, and the muscles in the arm. Soon to die ... the E-F-G approach on the first strg!

> >
> > > Alain
> >

> > The shorter the follow through, the less energy is put into the stroke and the less volume you will get. Speed is not the problem and neither is the speed of the release. The finger will return naturally fast enough. What you don't want to do is to make a habit of following through too much.

>
> Does the follow through cause the energy or does the energy cause the
> follow through? Does the cart push the horse or does the horse pull
> the cart?

The more energy you put into the finger, the farther it will follow through and the slower the alternation will be (assuming that you want keep endurance).

[Cactus Wren]

That makes sense. But it seems that a misconception on the part of
the student could cause him to put extra energy into the follow
through and not affect volume much.

I notice that flamencos, who always play hard, often mention endurance
as a factor in the picado. That is not something that CGers mention
in the "rest stroke" threads.

[florenc...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 20, 2012 11:20:41 AM UTC-7, Cactus Wren wrote:

> Alain, you know what, I hate #18. It is just too hard for me! #19
> really feels like an easy Carcassi study after that monster.

I would not practice both one after the other ... (in the same practice section)
I hear you ... # 18 is as you say a monster ... but a lovely study, a rare Eb 19 century gift! And ...
it can be tamed! The big thing is to bring the LH to be light. I remember a student playing at the conservatory ... he really had the spirit of that piece, (Smiling all the way through!) I have never heard it played that way since ... # 19 is rough towards the end ... having fat fingers does not help ...
Most people play it too fast ...
Anywhoo ... you are way ahead of me in that project! I am still plucking at #1 to 10, visiting # 12 from time to time ... ironing some specific spots ... mostly stretches ... in # 7 and 8 (these will be a breeze to play on a 19th century guitar!) and inner voice smoothening ... (1,2,3,6)
Away from my guitar from the next few days ... enjoying a short family summer vacation in a beautiful Whistler location, green lake!

[Cactus Wren]

Slow and steady makes for the best music :)

I have been working on #12, but it looks like it will take a long time
to get it to a respectable tempo. I am starting on #19, too. And
there is this Milonga that I have under my fingers but still haven't
managed to play too well yet!

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:00:54 -0700, douglasseth1 wrote:

> Who has DGT worked for? Who are your success stories?

Ask over at

Hits Files KBytes Visits
Hostname
---------------- ---------------- ---------------- ----------------
--------------------

333 2.57% 326 3.74% 25390 8.77% 3 0.13%
boston-cluster.lti.cs.cmu.edu

That was back in April. It appears that I'm making progress
in the university world.

[madelein...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, July 21, 2012 11:04:58 AM UTC-7, Cactus Wren wrote:
> On Jul 21, 9:16 am, florence.rei...@gmail.com wrote:

> > On Friday, July 20, 2012 11:20:41 AM UTC-7, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > > Alain, you know what, I hate #18.  It is just too hard for me!  #19
> > > really feels like an easy Carcassi study after that monster.
> >
> > I would not practice both one after the other ... (in the same practice section)
> > I hear you ... # 18 is as you say a monster ... but a lovely study, a rare Eb 19 century gift! And ...
> > it can be tamed! The big thing is to bring the LH to be light. I remember a student playing at the conservatory ... he really had the spirit of that piece, (Smiling all the way through!) I have never heard it played that way since ...  # 19 is rough towards the end ... having fat fingers does not help ...
> > Most people play it too fast ...
> > Anywhoo ... you are way ahead of me in that project! I am still plucking at #1 to 10, visiting # 12 from time to time ...     ironing some specific spots ... mostly stretches ... in # 7 and 8 (these will be a breeze to play on a 19th century guitar!) and inner voice smoothening ... (1,2,3,6)
> > Away from my guitar from the next few days ... enjoying a short family summer vacation in a beautiful Whistler location, green lake!

>
> Slow and steady makes for the best music :)
>
> I have been working on #12, but it looks like it will take a long time
> to get it to a respectable tempo. I am starting on #19, too. And

> there is this Milonga that I have under my fingers but still haven't

> managed to play too well yet!

#12 is probably the most difficult of the entire lot ... I think partly because the emphasis has been wrongly placed on ... speed ... a standard has been set and every interpretation I have heard is looking up to it ...because of that I thought that I had to do the same which was in a way setting myself for failure ...It's AG, when he was contributing here to this group, who open my eyes to the simple fact that it did not had to be played like that...(blasting speed, eyes closed!) ... over the years, 12 and 10 became my preferred studies just because they gave me so much trouble and I could not understand them ... It probably took me too long to solve, but I certainly do not regret going through all the trials to solve the many wrong approach I took with them... and ... its still a work in process!
The Milonga is not an easy piece (even if it uses only 4 strgs!)... I am a stranger to it now ...
I think you are bringing a very important point when you say that you have it under the fingers but still haven't managed to play it well ... for me when I think I know a piece is exactly when the real work has to start! (It's like going into the real world after having completed a university degree ...)
I hope i do not sound too arrogant by writing like this ...

[Cactus Wren]

Who is Madeleine Hodg? :)

Yes, I can play #12 at around 60 bpm with no problem, but even getting
it to 80 brings up some blips, and over 100 would seem to require a
prohibitive amount of repetitions. I will search for what AG said,
thank you. I have taken "too long" to solve many CG things and I do
regret it! I wish I had just had a good teacher and been a good
student from the start. I think that would have been better!

It occured to me that the Milonga could be played on a Bass Ukulele,
if there is such a thing. My teacher liked the piece when I played it
for him.

No, you don't seem arrogant. Who better to discuss this?

[madelein...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, July 21, 2012 10:35:37 PM UTC-7, Cactus Wren wrote:
> On Jul 21, 5:22 pm, madeleinehodg...@gmail.com wrote:

> > On Saturday, July 21, 2012 11:04:58 AM UTC-7, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > > On Jul 21, 9:16 am, florence.rei...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, July 20, 2012 11:20:41 AM UTC-7, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > > > > Alain, you know what, I hate #18.  It is just too hard for me!  #19
> > > > > really feels like an easy Carcassi study after that monster.
> > > >
> > > > I would not practice both one after the other ... (in the same practice section)
> > > > I hear you ... # 18 is as you say a monster ... but a lovely study, a rare Eb 19 century gift! And ...
> > > > it can be tamed! The big thing is to bring the LH to be light. I remember a student playing at the conservatory ... he really had the spirit of that piece, (Smiling all the way through!) I have never heard it played that way since ...  # 19 is rough towards the end ... having fat fingers does not help ...
> > > > Most people play it too fast ...
> > > > Anywhoo ... you are way ahead of me in that project! I am still plucking at #1 to 10, visiting # 12 from time to time ...     ironing some specific spots ... mostly stretches ... in # 7 and 8 (these will be a breeze to play on a 19th century guitar!) and inner voice smoothening ... (1,2,3,6)
> > > > Away from my guitar from the next few days ... enjoying a short family summer vacation in a beautiful Whistler location, green lake!
> >
> > > Slow and steady makes for the best music :)
> >
> > > I have been working on #12, but it looks like it will take a long time
> > > to get it to a respectable tempo.  I am starting on #19, too.  And
> > > there is this Milonga that I have under my fingers but still haven't
> > > managed to play too well yet!
> >
> > #12 is probably the most difficult of the entire lot ... I think partly because the emphasis has been wrongly placed on ... speed ... a standard has been set and every interpretation I have heard is looking up to it ...because of that I thought that I had to do the same which was in a way setting myself for failure ...It's AG, when he was contributing here to this group, who open my eyes to the simple fact that it did not had to be played like that...(blasting speed, eyes closed!) ... over the years, 12 and 10 became my preferred studies just because they gave me so much trouble and I could not understand them ... It probably took me too long to solve, but I certainly do not regret going through all the trials to solve the many wrong approach I took with them... and ... its still a work in process!
> > The Milonga is not an easy piece (even if it uses only 4 strgs!)... I am a stranger to it now ...
> > I think you are bringing a very important point when you say that you have it under the fingers but still haven't managed to play it well ... for me when I think I know a piece is exactly when the real work has to start! (It's like going into the real world after having completed a university degree ...)
> > I hope i do not sound too arrogant by writing like this ...

>
> Who is Madeleine Hodg? :)
>
> Yes, I can play #12 at around 60 bpm with no problem, but even getting
> it to 80 brings up some blips, and over 100 would seem to require a
> prohibitive amount of repetitions. I will search for what AG said,

> thank you. I have taken "too long" to solve many CG things and I do

> regret it! I wish I had just had a good teacher and been a good
> student from the start. I think that would have been better!
>
> It occured to me that the Milonga could be played on a Bass Ukulele,
> if there is such a thing. My teacher liked the piece when I played it
> for him.
>

> No, you don't seem arrogant. Who better to discuss this?

ha... she's the girl friend of my son, and she let me use her Mac up here in this beautiful holiday setting!
The Milonga ... or a bass banjo! It's a nice piece... and I am glad to see that it slowly taking a life of its own ... it's not mine anymore! I haven't written anything serious since ... hopefully I'll have more time when I retire ...(if I ever retire!)
For # 12, here again, I think a smaller scale guitar would help, it's amazing how much the modern guitar has distorted our perception of the 19th century music ... and not only this style ... we could say that the modern guitar is a distorter instrument ... not in a negative way (some aspect are but not all)...but ... historical informed performance is not totally, truly, at reach ... Have you ever heard Sergio Abreu's version of # 12? The best IMHO. Fast, virtuoso fast, brilliant, clear, dynamite dynamics, and ... fluid. It belongs to the out of reach standard ... but ... the way he plays it, it not a study anymore, it's just music.

[John Nguyen]

On Jul 22, 2:08 pm, madeleinehodg...@gmail.com wrote:

> Have you ever heard Sergio Abreu's version of # 12? The best IMHO. Fast, virtuoso fast, brilliant, clear, dynamite dynamics, and ... fluid. It belongs to the out of reach standard ... but ... the way he plays it, it not a study anymore, it's just music.-
>


The Abreu version is my all time favorite for this piece. The
effortlessness and liveliness stood out tall compared to others, IMHO.
Cheers,

John

[Murdick]

On Saturday, July 21, 2012 10:06:07 AM UTC-5, Cactus Wren wrote:
> That makes sense. But it seems that a misconception on the part of
> the student could cause him to put extra energy into the follow
> through and not affect volume much.
>
> I notice that flamencos, who always play hard, often mention endurance
> as a factor in the picado. That is not something that CGers mention

> in the "rest stroke" threads.
>
> > > Does the follow through cause the energy or does the energy cause the
> > > follow through?  Does the cart push the horse or does the horse pull
> > > the cart?
> >
> > The more energy you put into the finger, the farther it will follow through and the slower the alternation will be (assuming that you want keep endurance).

The free stroke needs a follow through in order to recover, the rest stroke does not because it has the rest string which makes the rest stroke a less complex(?) stroke. And, yes, one can over follow through and not play louder - this is my main objection to the idea of the "fist".

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:00:54 -0700, douglasseth1 wrote:

> Who has DGT worked for? Who are your success stories?

Google "David Rayleigh Arnold" delcamp.

The misspelling is convenient today.