Arpeggio practice: bounce hand on every note?
Tommy Grand
Someone who can actually play recommend practicing pimi by bouncing
the hand on each and every note -- the bigger the bounce, the better!
I like this advise because it runs contrary to the received wisdom, at
least to my knowledge. As B. Dylan asks: "have you ever done the
opposite of what the experts say?"
I hasten to add that this is a practice technique, not a performance
technique. Practice pimi with a pronounced bounce for 10-15 reps,
playing as fast & loud & clear & even as you can. Then try to fire it
off without the bounce. Report back.
TG
roofus
Check out Philip Hi- seems to do a little bouncing. Not too much,
though and at slow tempos.
Dicerous
NO BOUNCY, BOUNCY!
himme...@verizon.net
Tommy Grand
wrote:
Could be. How would I know? Seth, do me a favor and try it once,
with a totally open mind. Try it on your least secure arpeggio
pattern.
arys
Well this could be interesting. What do you mean by bouncing?
I thought it is something you should really, really avoid.
I also just realised that my current repertoire has no pieces with
pimi -figurations...
-Matti Karjalainen
roofus
try the weiss prelude in e minor that is in the baroque frederick noad
book, that's a good one.
Tommy Grand
> Well this could be interesting. What do you mean by bouncing?
> I thought it is something you should really, really avoid.
Arys, try this:
1) Play a p-stroke, but really follow through with the whole arm. I'm
talking about a major, over the top follow through, so that your hand
ends up near your right knee!!
2) Play an i free stroke, but follow through so much that your hand
winds up near your mid-chest!
3) Same with m!
4) Same with i!
Now, try to keep type of pimi bounce going with some kind of
regularity...pimipimipimi. It will be slow, and you'll probably have
to reduce the huge bounce somewhat, but try to keep it as huge as
possible! This motion, should involve the whole arm and minimal
finger joint movement! And loud loud loud!
Do this 10-15 times, then try few regular pimi with no bounce. See
how it feels, and report back. Could be nothing but a pant load.
arys
Yes, now I possibly understood and tried it. Feels strange to use
entirely different muscles that I would normally try to use. Sorry, it
is useless to me, because I don't understand the connection to normal
technique. I will try it again when someone explains the purpose,
which I cannot grasp.
But, I used similar motions when beginning to practice arpeggio
patterns where a sweeping of any finger(s) across adjacent strings was
involved.
-Matti Karjalainen
Tommy Grand
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ok arys, maybe it's non sense! I think the idea is that, like
swinging a lasso, arpeggios are something you do with the _arm_, not
the _hand_. Hmm.
Slogoin
> I also just realised that my current repertoire has no pieces with pimi -figurations...
I use it for BWV 1006a for the descending arpeggio passage after the
opening up and back scale.
roofus
IMO, you are trying to find a way to release the tension. At least
try the prevailing methods that many others have found to work before
you start trying to reinvent the wheel! It may not be necessary.
Try the Shearer/Murdick method.
dsi1
> Well this could be interesting. What do you mean by bouncing?
> I thought it is something you should really, really avoid.
> I also just realised that my current repertoire has no pieces with
> pimi -figurations...
I don't know if you should really, really avoid it. My guess is that you
should avoid this move if you're interested in a uniform, consistent
tone i.e., a sound that's boring as cornflakes. If you view guitar
playing as a technical exercise and strive for perfection, stay away
from that bounce! If you consider playing the guitar as an joyful,
sometimes somber, sometimes intense expression of what's inside you and
organic in nature rather than inert, you'll probably find that sometimes
you just have to bounce. That's just the way that is.
Since you are interested in pimi, my guess is that you're probably the
former. There's some great guitarists that think this way, although, I'd
rather not think of those. My favorite guitarists will be both or just
the latter. :-)
>
> -Matti Karjalainen
Tommy Grand
> Since you are interested in pimi, my guess is that you're probably the
> former.
?
Richard Yates
I vaguely remember a Philip Hii instructional video that suggests bouncing
when learning tremolo. That rock may be on his site.
dsi1
Ultimately, the answers you seek will be found in your own body and
neural pathways and brain, not by constantly looking outwards. You can
choose to go the tech route i.e., ignore your body and try to conform to
other people's bodies. However, sooner or later, you'll realize that
you're stuck with what you're born with.
Why not trust your body?
arys
Thank you for your thoughts, I always value replies that go to detail.
But the context was repeated pimi pattern at fast pace. Bouncing while
doing that sounds like asking for trouble or injury to me. I'm more
eager to achieve the phrasing and dynamics (I think you also meant
those) with the technical exercise in learning repertoire.
I really do think that striving for as high technical proficiency as
possible (and _required for an expression_) is a vehicle for
controlled musical expression, which is the ultimate result. Of
course, in a piece which is in a certain way technically less
demanding the rules are looser.
I'll bounce, whatever that means, anytime when it serves a purpose,
like getting just the right accents on the notes of a chord, or I'll
occasionally sound like a typewriter if I think that's needed.
Still, I'm probably not your latter type of guitarist, as I'm more
interested in what and how comes out, in contrary to expressing
myself. Or I just speak a different language.
-MK
Tommy Grand
> Why not trust your body?
ds1 I trusted my body and got this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzQW5Cwi8lI
dsi1
> On 5 tammi, 21:34, dsi1<d...@spamnet.com> wrote:
>> On 1/5/2010 7:58 AM, arys wrote:
>>
>>> Well this could be interesting. What do you mean by bouncing?
>>> I thought it is something you should really, really avoid.
>>> I also just realised that my current repertoire has no pieces with
>>> pimi -figurations...
>>
>> I don't know if you should really, really avoid it. My guess is that you
>> should avoid this move if you're interested in a uniform, consistent
>> tone i.e., a sound that's boring as cornflakes. If you view guitar
>> playing as a technical exercise and strive for perfection, stay away
>> from that bounce! If you consider playing the guitar as an joyful,
>> sometimes somber, sometimes intense expression of what's inside you and
>> organic in nature rather than inert, you'll probably find that sometimes
>> you just have to bounce. That's just the way that is.
>>
>> Since you are interested in pimi, my guess is that you're probably the
>> former. There's some great guitarists that think this way, although, I'd
>> rather not think of those. My favorite guitarists will be both or just
>> the latter. :-)
>>
>
> Thank you for your thoughts, I always value replies that go to detail.
> But the context was repeated pimi pattern at fast pace. Bouncing while
> doing that sounds like asking for trouble or injury to me. I'm more
> eager to achieve the phrasing and dynamics (I think you also meant
> those) with the technical exercise in learning repertoire.
Thanks for the clarification. I think you are right about this - it's
tough to bounce in this situation. Some people might bounce while doing
a pimi pattern - either they're poor players with serious lack of
control or they want to cut off the notes for special effect. Luckily,
it's pretty easy to hear which one they are.
>
> I really do think that striving for as high technical proficiency as
> possible (and _required for an expression_) is a vehicle for
> controlled musical expression, which is the ultimate result. Of
> course, in a piece which is in a certain way technically less
> demanding the rules are looser.
>
> I'll bounce, whatever that means, anytime when it serves a purpose,
> like getting just the right accents on the notes of a chord, or I'll
> occasionally sound like a typewriter if I think that's needed.
I admit it. I have bounced. Sometimes I think myself pretty funny when I
do. :-)
>
> Still, I'm probably not your latter type of guitarist, as I'm more
> interested in what and how comes out, in contrary to expressing
> myself. Or I just speak a different language.
Personally, I don't want to think about what my hands are doing but
there are some control freak guitarists out there that take my breath
away and makes any guitar aspirations I might have seem futile. I'm
gonna have to avoid those guys! This guy, for example. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scjRSx-HL1c
>
> -MK
dsi1
Sounds fine with me. Sounds fine with you?
Tommy Grand
Totally unacceptable!
dsi1
Are you certain of this?
Tommy Grand
> Are you certain of this?
Yes I'll never get into a DMA program w/tech like this.
dsi1
Well, you know better than I about what you're trying to achieve. I
really don't have any opinion or feelings about this non-musical,
fragment thingie - why would I? To me it fits nicely into the "ok" box -
it's a pretty big box. :-)
Slogoin
Try dotted rhythms - pI mI pI mI and Pi Mi Pi Mi
Try 3s - PimIpiMipImiP
Your posted version seems tiled toward Pi Mi Pi Mi. (Aim high if
you are hitting low, aim left if you are hitting right)
Oh, I'm sorry... I forgot you don't want to play in meter...
nevermind...
BTW, your body is not even moving so how can it inform your
playing... oh yeah, I forgot again... you don't use note groupings for
your "pure" tech so there is no reason to move you body to a non-
rhythm.
Tommy Grand
> On Jan 5, 1:43 pm, Tommy Grand <howardj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 5, 2:40 pm, dsi1 <d...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote:
>
> > > Why not trust your body?
>
> > ds1 I trusted my body and got this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzQW5Cwi8lI
>
> Try dotted rhythms - pI mI pI mI and Pi Mi Pi Mi
>
> Try 3s - PimIpiMipImiP
>
> Your posted version seems tiled toward Pi Mi Pi Mi. (Aim high if
> you are hitting low, aim left if you are hitting right)
>
Does that mean you think "i" is early? I think it's late...
Slogoin
>
> Does that mean you think "i" is early? I think it's late...
Try dotting both ways and see if one is easier than the other.
The 3s are more work but they really change your natural accents.
The idea is simply to use a rhythm than forces you to group in the
opposite direction from you tendency.... but then none of this makes
any sense unless you are working with the groupings within a meter.
Slogoin
>
> Does that mean you think "i" is early? I think it's late...
BTW, when you do pimi there is a point where the i feels like a little
piston between the slower p and m anchors.
Tommy Grand
I like this visual, thanks. And you know what happens to an engine
when the timing is off.
Slogoin
>
> I like this visual, thanks. And you know what happens to an engine when the timing is off.
Especially when you rev it up!
> "La difficultad del trémolo consiste, no sólo en lograr igualdad y
> continuidad en las notas, sino también todos los matices que de piano
> a fuerte puede exigir una buena interpretación."
LOL!
Tommy Grand
> On Jan 5, 2:57 pm, Tommy Grand <howardj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I like this visual, thanks. And you know what happens to an engine when the timing is off.
>
> Especially when you rev it up!
Indeed what may sound minor at slower speeds may become a major threat
on the highway.
> > "La difficultad del trémolo consiste, no sólo en lograr igualdad y
> > continuidad en las notas, sino también todos los matices que de piano
> > a fuerte puede exigir una buena interpretación."
Yep, both are important.
Slogoin
>
> Yep, both are important.
You will notice that Bees has a connecting part in the B section
where he uses a long crescendo back up to the head.
When I worked on this piece one isolation was that ramp. To me it
is a perfect example of an extracted part that needs to be worked
within the meter aimed at the top of the ramp. Most ramps can be
thought of a progressive groups rather than progressive notes. Pujol
seems to have put this in there just to make sure the student works
with the longer rhythm groupings of the phrase...
Opps... darn, there's all that meter, rhythm, phrase and group
junk again... sorry I can't think of music without basic musical
elements.
Anyway, for that section I hear them bees come buzzing at me so the
ramp also starts soft and slow, accelerating up then brakes at the top
to land softer and at tempo for the head. Gradients are almost always
volume, tone and tempo working together to create the curved gestures
that are found in most music. These are the brush strokes of music.
Tommy Grand
Sounds good, and important, for El Abejorro and music in general. But
when someone lacks basic pimi competency, imo it's a bit premature to
throw all that into the mix. Highway driving is impotant but some
basic training is required first. After all Pujol wrote Ex 84, which
lacks any such interpretive markings. And Book 4, where that
quotation came from, is loaded with "pure tech" (along with some
excellent music).
"Exercises Before Etudes"
Slogoin
>
> Sounds good, and important, for El Abejorro and music in general.
I just taught an 8 year old to play pimi on a D chord moving it up
one fret at a time while going from slow piano to fast forte. He got
it right off and can play it faster and smoother than your video. Of
course we cheated by using a shape that gave him a musical goal.
The Bees passage is just a tad harder because of the LH chord but
if my 8 year old student can handle it after less than one year of
lessons then it looks like he ha a better chance of having the 'tech'
for a DMA program before you.
I'm sure everybody in RMCG can't wait to hear you post your pimi
without any rhythm or shape, not to mention those exercises you plan
on recording the same unmusical but "pure" tech way at tempo. I bet
they will be a hit on YouTube too!
Tommy Grand
> On Jan 5, 4:19 pm, Tommy Grand <howardj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Sounds good, and important, for El Abejorro and music in general.
>
> I just taught an 8 year old to play pimi on a D chord moving it up
> one fret at a time while going from slow piano to fast forte. He got
> it right off and can play it faster and smoother than your video.
I'd like to see that!
Tommy Grand
Please post it right next to your video of Pujol #1 lol.
Slogoin
I almost recorded it. I'll try to do a crappy video with my laptop
next week. I really didn't expect his to be so smooth so fast.
The kid has been working on repeated note scales with i and m
alternation so I thought I'd try it to see if it worked for him right
off and it did. We've been shaping scales using different rhythms and
ramps so it was no big deal for him. He has an interesting RH for a
kid his age. When he came to me his RH was a mess and he couldn't play
anything in rhythm after 6 months with another teacher.
Tommy Grand
> On Jan 5, 5:28 pm, Tommy Grand <howardj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'd like to see that!
>
> I almost recorded it. I'll try to do a crappy video with my laptop
> next week.
I thought you were preparing instructional videos. Don't you have a
decent camera for that?
Slogoin
>
> I thought you were preparing instructional videos. Don't you have a
> decent camera for that?
No, a former student is helping me and it's his equipment.
Charlie
it is good. I get a kick out of posters here analyzing every little step as
if there is only one way to do things! Just play the goddam guitar!
What's to do wrong? Play for the sound, play for the pleasure, technique be
damned.
My mother's advice comes to mind ~ do whatever you want to do: you'll know
when you have to change your ways.
Charlie
"dsi1" <ds...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message
news:D7P0n.2594$%P5....@newsfe21.iad...
Charlie
Way nice playing, that. Effortless playing, playing for sound, nice
Charlie
"dsi1" <ds...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message
news:kpO0n.1421$Kq7....@newsfe04.iad...
David Raleigh Arnold
> Friends,
>
> Someone who can actually play recommend practicing pimi by bouncing the
> hand on each and every note -- the bigger the bounce, the better! I like
> this advise because it runs contrary to the received wisdom, at least to
> my knowledge. As B. Dylan asks: "have you ever done the opposite of
> what the experts say?"
>
> I hasten to add that this is a practice technique, not a performance
> technique. Practice pimi with a pronounced bounce for 10-15 reps,
> playing as fast & loud & clear & even as you can. Then try to fire it
> off without the bounce. Report back.
>
> TG
If you relax the hand and wrist, which is a dumb idea, your hand will
bounce, period. If you only *think* you are relaxed, which is almost
as bad, it will just cause unnecessary grief.
A positive bounce is intended to prevent trouble way down the
road. Don't make it a habit.
More string crossing, as in my arpeggios, and pieces which do
not allow keeping the RH in one place, can provide the desired
benefit without clowning. Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Music theory should be clues you can use,
not blues you can't lose.
dsi1
> Well put. I subscribe to playing the way i want to play: if it sounds good
> it is good. I get a kick out of posters here analyzing every little step as
> if there is only one way to do things! Just play the goddam guitar!
> What's to do wrong? Play for the sound, play for the pleasure, technique be
> damned.
Gosh, you're more left-wing that I am! :-) Some guys think of guitar
playing as a series of repetitious, mechanical movements and the
consistent application of geometric vectors while others see it as a
remarkable sonic occurrence brought about by the organic interaction of
flesh and nail and wood and strings and air and resonance. That's the
breaks. :-)
Tommy Grand
> Gosh, you're more left-wing that I am! :-) Some guys think of guitar
> playing as a series of repetitious, mechanical movements and the
> consistent application of geometric vectors while others see it as a
> remarkable sonic occurrence brought about by the organic interaction of
> flesh and nail and wood and strings and air and resonance. That's the
> breaks. :-)
Why use only half your brain? I think plants are more remarkable now
that I know about photosynthesis, don't you? Similarly, I enjoy SY's
brilliant performances even more when I consider the amount of hard
work he must have put in. No need to fantasize that it that technique
comes to him in a moment of divine musical inspiration.
A poet once said, "The whole universe is in a glass of wine." We will
probably never know in what sense he said that, for poets do not write
to be understood. But it is true that if we look in glass of wine
closely enough we see the entire universe.
There are the things of physics: the twisting liquid which evaporates
depending on the wind and weather, the reflections in the glass, and
our imagination adds the atoms. The glass is a distillation of the
earth's rocks, and in its composition we see the secrets of the
universe's age, and the evolution of the stars. What strange array of
chemicals are in the wine? How did they come to be? There are the
ferments, the enzymes, the substrates, and the products. There in wine
is found the great generalization: all life is fermentation. Nobody
can discover the chemistry of wine without discovering the cause of
much disease. How vivid is the claret, pressing its existence into the
consciousness that watches it!
If in our small minds, for some convenience, divide this glass of
wine, this universe, into parts - physics, biology, geology,
astronomy, psychology, and so on - remember that nature does not know
it! So let us put it all back together, not forgetting ultimately what
it is for. Let us give one more final pleasure: drink it and forget it
all!
dsi1
>
> Why use only half your brain? I think plants are more remarkable now
> that I know about photosynthesis, don't you? Similarly, I enjoy SY's
> brilliant performances even more when I consider the amount of hard
> work he must have put in. No need to fantasize that it that technique
> comes to him in a moment of divine musical inspiration.
Mostly, I'm a left-brain kind of guy and analyze stuff all the time. For
music, I conscientiously make an effort to avoid thinking like a
classical guitarist. Wondering about cedar or spruce, or nails or not,
or F# or G, or model of microphone is counterproductive to whether or
not to groove with the piece. :-)
>
> A poet once said, "The whole universe is in a glass of wine." We will
> probably never know in what sense he said that, for poets do not write
> to be understood. But it is true that if we look in glass of wine
> closely enough we see the entire universe.
>
> There are the things of physics: the twisting liquid which evaporates
> depending on the wind and weather, the reflections in the glass, and
> our imagination adds the atoms. The glass is a distillation of the
> earth's rocks, and in its composition we see the secrets of the
> universe's age, and the evolution of the stars. What strange array of
> chemicals are in the wine? How did they come to be? There are the
> ferments, the enzymes, the substrates, and the products. There in wine
> is found the great generalization: all life is fermentation. Nobody
> can discover the chemistry of wine without discovering the cause of
> much disease. How vivid is the claret, pressing its existence into the
> consciousness that watches it!
>
> If in our small minds, for some convenience, divide this glass of
> wine, this universe, into parts - physics, biology, geology,
> astronomy, psychology, and so on - remember that nature does not know
> it! So let us put it all back together, not forgetting ultimately what
> it is for. Let us give one more final pleasure: drink it and forget it
> all!
That's a nice way to put it - Mr. Feynman. :-)
Slogoin
> Wondering about cedar or spruce, or nails or not,
No nails, use glue.
Tommy Grand
> That's a nice way to put it - Mr. Feynman. :-)
A true musician doesn't concern himself with dull matters such as
citation, attribution, bibliography...
dsi1
Evidently they pretty much always miss the main point of the post
completely too! :-)
Dicerous
> On 1/5/2010 7:58 AM, arys wrote:
>
> > Well this could be interesting. What do you mean by bouncing?
> > I thought it is something you should really, really avoid.
> > I also just realised that my current repertoire has no pieces with
> > pimi -figurations...
>
> I don't know if you should really, really avoid it. My guess is that you
> should avoid this move if you're interested in a uniform, consistent
> tone i.e., a sound that's boring as cornflakes. If you view guitar
> playing as a technical exercise and strive for perfection, stay away
> from that bounce! If you consider playing the guitar as an joyful,
> sometimes somber, sometimes intense expression of what's inside you and
> organic in nature rather than inert, you'll probably find that sometimes
> you just have to bounce. That's just the way that is.
>
> Since you are interested in pimi, my guess is that you're probably the
> former. There's some great guitarists that think this way, although, I'd
> rather not think of those. My favorite guitarists will be both or just
> the latter. :-)
>
>
>
>
>
David,
Jerking off feels good too, doesn't mean you should do it
excessively.
dsi1
> David,
>
> Jerking off feels good too, doesn't mean you should do it
> excessively.
I'll have to defer to your expertise in this area - masturbation, not
moderation. Rest assured that moderation is my expertise. It is the
secret of my clean-living, stress-free lifestyle. Unfortunately, it
makes me kind of a dull, boring dude but ya can't your cake and eat it
too, can you? :-)
Dicerous
Not sure what to say.
Lutemann
Dsi1,
You know, I can actually eat a piece of cake mentally without actually
eating it. Weird, eh? I've been visualizing for so long (now learning
scales and patterns on sax) that I can eat my cake and have it too. I
had a really good piece of 7-layer lemon cake yesterday at the coffe
shop. They should have charged me for it.
dsi1
How about just one of these? :-)
Dicerous
what's *happy* about suffering so?
dsi1
That is weird and you should find some way of teaching others this
skill. The weight-loss industry is big business and your methods have it
all over the ones that require you purchase and eat their icky,
overpriced, meals. You could make bazillions! It's like not having any
cake and eating it too!
Wish I had this super-power - man, I could go for some KFC and mashed
potatoes right about now! I have no idea why... :-)
dsi1
I don't know how to respond to that. :-)