The Craft of Musical Composition
Tommy Grand
Here are two works written around the same time (circa 1945). Based
only upon this sample, which composer appears to be the superior
craftsman? Not a trick question, I don't know the answer -- I want to
hear yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIE-gn15cSg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SULs9aaWFLY
TG
Charlie
I didn't care for the Boulez, it's way to heady, abstract, illogical and non
lyrical for my tastes. For me, music must move me. The Boulez piece did
just that, it moved me to shut it off. :-) I can't take a piece like that
seriously: too pretentious for my tastes. At least i didn't get anything
out of it.
When i was a child, my grandparents had 3 pianos in their new york
apartment. When i was 3 or 4, i played just such non music, randomly
playing any note or combination of notes i felt inspired to play, loud,
soft, pedal, no pedal etc. I could do that for hours. I thought i was
playing beautiful music because the sound itself interested me. I was never
told to stop, although i must have driven the adults crazy. Boulez seems to
be doing just what i did, except he is an adult.
The Strauss is more lyrical to my ears but that said, i wouldn't listen to
that piece again either. Unless i'm mistaken, this is an atonal piece in
that it has no obvious center, at least not to my ears. I don't really care
for tunes i can't hum or run through my mind while i'm out and about. This
piece i couldn't even begin to remember because it moved me not at all.
Charlie
"Tommy Grand" <howar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Slogoin
> Boulez seems to be doing just what i did, except he is an adult.
I'm curious, do you really think Boulez is pulling a fast one on
everybody and just banging away to sell garbage to the pretentious
crowd of artsy fartsy folks while he laughs all the way to the bank?
himme...@verizon.net
I have always found Strauss to be one of the supreme craftsmen of
classical composition. This concerto has all the hallmarks of his
style, sweeping melodies (clearly tonal in the key of D, Charlie, you
just have to learn to listen!) complex harmonies, rich orchestration,
fully realized contraputal underpinnings, virtuosic writing for the
soloist, etc.
The Boulez is in a style I once heard described by Steve Reich as
bloop bleep music! I know intellectually that it is well crafted, but
I don't feel it.
So my nod goes to Strauss.
S
Charlie
Debussy is not tonal. :-) However, I would not argue the point with you,
it just doesn't come to my ears as tonal. I hear no resolving, it's all
'slippery / sliding melody'.
Charlie
<himme...@verizon.net> wrote in message
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fol...@yahoo.com
You don't feel it because you didn't grow up on Staten Island, which
in the 70s perhaps had more in common with burned out Berlin than we
care to remember!
On Jan 6, 12:03 pm, "himmelh...@verizon.net" <himmelh...@verizon.net>
wrote:
Richard F. Sayage
Don't know the actual answer to that one, but if so, it wouldn't be the
first time...most certainly not the last. :-)
--
Kind Regards,
Richard F. Sayage
Savage Classical Guitar
93 South Penataquit Ave.
Bay Shore, NY 11706
631-335-5447
Home to Long Island New York Classical Guitar
www.savageclassical.com
fol...@yahoo.com
first.
Boulez taught a series of masterclasses and conducted a fantastic
concert. I even had a chance to show him my 3rd Sonata for guitar.
He is a great musician...
mark
On Jan 6, 4:00 pm, "Richard F. Sayage"
Slogoin
> I even had a chance to show him my 3rd Sonata for guitar.
and......?????
fol...@yahoo.com
not matter what anybody thinks. They are a part of history now.
Whether you lke it or not it doesn't matter... I don't like the Korean
War, so what?
On Jan 6, 4:00 pm, "Richard F. Sayage"
<rsaya...@ZeroSPAMsavageclassical.com> wrote:
Tommy Grand
> BTW, with Boulez,Stockhausen, Nono, Xenakis,Maderna, Berio, It does
> not matter what anybody thinks. They are a part of history now.
> Whether you lke it or not it doesn't matter... I don't like the Korean
> War, so what?
I love Boulez and try to see everything he conducts when he comes to
town (he is Principal Gues Conductor Emeritus or something). But like
Schoenberg, I think he was overly preoccupied with his place in
history. To me, some his music reeks of self consciousness. This is
in contrast to someone like Ligeti, who imo was more interested in the
music than in his persona.
BTW I say "Boulez was" because he appears to have mellowed in his old
age. I'm looking forward to seeing him conduct Ravel this year!
fol...@yahoo.com
Not much to tell. He looked it over and asked that I send to him
personally 2 scores to farm out to Parisian guitarists...which I did.
Best,
Mark
Tommy Grand
"The only revolutionary in our time was Strauss!" -- Schoenberg
Richard F. Sayage
> BTW, with Boulez,Stockhausen, Nono, Xenakis,Maderna, Berio, It does
> not matter what anybody thinks. They are a part of history now.
> Whether you lke it or not it doesn't matter... I don't like the Korean
> War, so what?
>
I'm guessing that my comment is my thought on Boulez himself, which is
the farthest thing from the truth. It is a simple commentary on the
artsy fartsy and nothing else.
Rich
Richard F. Sayage
> On 1/6/2010 7:26 PM, fol...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> BTW, with Boulez,Stockhausen, Nono, Xenakis,Maderna, Berio, It does
>> not matter what anybody thinks. They are a part of history now.
>> Whether you lke it or not it doesn't matter... I don't like the Korean
>> War, so what?
>>
>
> I'm guessing that my comment is my thought on Boulez himself, which is
> the farthest thing from the truth. It is a simple commentary on the
> artsy fartsy and nothing else.
>
> Rich
Apologies...what I meant to say is that I'm guessing that my comment
"has been interpreted" as my thoughts on Boulez, which again, is the
farthest thing from the truth. Rich
Fugue
to, but I prefer the crushing intensity and virtuosity of Boulez's
Sonata.
Tommy Grand
Also discuss:
Alain Reiher
"Fugue" <48fu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:07c0621c-651a-456a...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> On a superficial level, the Strauss may be more "pleasant" to listen
> to, but I prefer the crushing intensity and virtuosity of Boulez's
> Sonata.
Ditto! I much prefer the Sonata. (It's funny that the only comment to the
clip is "nice playing"!!! Nice is the last epithet I would use to describe
this music! It a good thing (imho) that contemporary music has made the word
nice obsolete. Nice this, nice that!
Anyhooo ... Very dynamic music and ... beautiful meter ... very filling ...
every single moment of the present, while listening to it, is awaken!
Alain
There is an unsung fantastic American Jazz pianist that made a career
improvising this type of music. He simply had an amazing mind!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yomesyf8GFY
fol...@yahoo.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB7adkok144&feature=related
I heard this live and it was one of the best concerts I've ever been
to. It is in surround sound and has the most beautiful integration of
electronic sounds and live instruments I've ever heard!
Best,
Mark
On Jan 6, 8:58 pm, "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote:
> "Fugue" <48fug...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Stanley Yates
than its abilty to deal with tonal language. What do you all think about
that?
sy
"Tommy Grand" <howar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Alain Reiher
"Stanley Yates" <in...@StanleyYates.com> wrote in message
news:S_d1n.12383$_H7...@newsfe24.iad...
I am glad you brought that up .... I have been thinking about this issue
since this thread has started ... the atonal language uses of wide
intervals to emphasize contrast,texture, space and so on, and the rhythmical
complexity it explores... is better served by the piano than the guitar. The
guitar greatly limited by the physical capacity of the player to displace
his hands from one register to the other, not to mention it restrained
capacity to sustain wide intervals once out of the open strings basses, a
sound that is starting to wear thin ... (sustain being so important to the
modern language)
The pianists have their entire wing span to play like an albatross on the
keyboard and here too, polytonality is much better served by this instrument
than our guitar on which we can hardly play a full 9th chord ... Yes we do
have our Pleiades of tricks to make modern sounds modern but ... really can
we compare a prepared guitar to a prepared piano? Or comparing a piano
cluster of sounds to a guitar cluster (never heard of that!)
But .... despite all these limitations ... it still has potential! [;o)
Alain
Alain Reiher
We definitely need to keep this contemporary youtube window open ... an
undeniable benefit for our ears!
Alain
<fol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Dicerous
> Yes! This is great.
> We definitely need to keep this contemporary youtube window open ... an
> undeniable benefit for our ears!
>
> Alain
>
Alain,
I agree with you. Not only is the guitar limited in range but also
timbre. BUT its rhythmic possibilities are great!
agil
"Stanley Yates" <in...@StanleyYates.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:S_d1n.12383$_H7...@newsfe24.iad...
> The guiar is even more limited in its abilty to deal with atonal language
> than its abilty to deal with tonal language. What do you all think about
> that?
>
> sy
No difference. The problem lies behind the guitar.
ag
Dicerous
> "Stanley Yates" <i...@StanleyYates.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:S_d1n.12383$_H7...@newsfe24.iad...
>
> > The guiar is even more limited in its abilty to deal with atonal language
> > than its abilty to deal with tonal language. What do you all think about
> > that?
>
> > sy
>
> No difference. The problem lies behind the guitar.
>
> ag
...and the minute one slaps a pickup on it it becomes
pedestrian...so...well, it's not like one can write an entire piece
based on solo piccolo. Schoenberg did write a piece with guitar...I
think it was a quintet. By the way he used the guitar one can easily
see a composer's perspective of the instrument (i.e. a very supportive
role).
Dicerous
There are interesting things that can be done with guitar and taped
accompaniment...and i don't mean goofy, midi jazz standards...haha
agil
"Dicerous" <dice...@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:f666326e-be10-43fb...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 6, 10:57 pm, "agil" <calatrav...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Stanley Yates" <i...@StanleyYates.com> ha scritto nel
>> messaggionews:S_d1n.12383$_H7...@newsfe24.iad...
>>
>> > The guiar is even more limited in its abilty to deal with atonal
>> > language
>> > than its abilty to deal with tonal language. What do you all think
>> > about
>> > that?
>>
>> > sy
>>
>> No difference. The problem lies behind the guitar.
>>
>> ag
>
> ...and the minute one slaps a pickup on it it becomes
> pedestrian...so...well, it's not like one can write an entire piece
> based on solo piccolo. Schoenberg did write a piece with guitar...I
> think it was a quintet.
Perhaps you could push your thinking to the extreme and realize that yes, he
did, but it is not a Quintet, it is the Serenade op. 24 (1920-1923) for
clarinet, bass clarinet, mandolin, guitar, violin, viola, cello and bass
voice. Besides, Schoenberg employed the guitar also in his arrangements of
popular songs.
ag
Dicerous
Thanks. Can you tell us any more about it (that isn't found in
wikipedia?) I think I might have played this in college but can't
quite remember.
Stanley Yates
"agil" <calat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b4585f5$0$1132$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...
A major triad can be voiced in a number if ways and still sounds like a
major triad...
sy
Dicerous
> "agil" <calatrav...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4b4585f5$0$1132$4faf...@reader1.news.tin.it...
>
>
>
> > "Stanley Yates" <i...@StanleyYates.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> >news:S_d1n.12383$_H7...@newsfe24.iad...
> >> The guiar is even more limited in its abilty to deal with atonal language
> >> than its abilty to deal with tonal language. What do you all think about
> >> that?
>
> >> sy
>
> > No difference. The problem lies behind the guitar.
>
Sources
Teile der ersten Niederschrift
Arnold Schönberg Center, Wien (Nachlaß Schönberg, MS 79, Sk 479-503;
MS 74, Sk 811, Sk 816-820, Sk 823-831)
Große Teile des Werkes sind als erste Niederschrift im V. Skizzenbuch
[...] enthalten. Die ersten Skizzen zum Sonett, mit einer von der
endgültigen Reihe noch abweichenden Fassung ( - das Sonett ist der
einzige, eine zwölftönige Reihe verwendende Satz des Werkes - ) fand
der Musikologe Jan Maegaard in einem kleinen Skizzenbüchlein aus dem
Jahr 1922 in dem ungeordnet gebliebenen Stoß von Skizzenblättern.
(Josef Rufer: Das Werk Arnold Schönbergs. Mit 10 Bildern und 25
Handschriften-Faksimiles. Kassel et al. 1959, p. 24)
Vth Sketchbook
IVth Small Sketchbook
Dicerous
Schönberg began working on the Serenade op. 24 in September 1921 and
finished the work on 14 April 1923. It was premiered privately at the
Viennese home of Norbert Schwarzmann on 2 May 1924 and received its
first public performance that summer at Donaueschingen. The Serenade
marks one of Schönberg’s first attempts to adapt serial compositional
techniques to large-scale form, largely without the support of text.
The stability of traditional genres (March, Minuet, Theme and
Variations) allowed Schönberg a freedom to experiment with new
compositional procedures. The atmosphere of this chamber work for
clarinet, bass clarinet, mandolin, guitar, violin, viola, cello and
bass voice resembles that of “Pierrot lunaire.” The special effects
required from the instruments (pizzicato, col legno, flutter tongue)
create unusual tone colours. The combination of violin, clarinet, and
plucked strings echoes the timbres of ‘Schrammelmusik.’ In addition to
the variety of colours and moods created by various instrumental
combinations, Schönberg encourages a variety of expression through
changes in tempi and nuances of dynamics. The seven movements are
arranged symmetrically: 1 (March) and 7 (Finale) share musical
material, 2 (Minuet) and 5 (Dance Scene) have similar dance-like
characters, while 3 (Variations) and 6 (Song [without Words]) are more
reflective. The central movement, a song (Sonnet by Petrarch),
provides the focal point for the whole. The March uses a ternary
design with easily recognizable inversions of the main theme; although
it is entitled “March,” its tempo and character are more that of a
traditional, though frequently interrupted, waltz. The Menuett is also
ternary with an exact repetition of the first section following a
faster Trio. The third movement consists of a long theme in the
clarinet followed by six variations. Of these variations, Schönberg
himself wrote: “The following variations use inversions and retrograde
inversions, diminutions and augmentations, canons of various kinds,
and rhythmic shifts to differenct beats – in other words, all the
technical tools of the method are here, except the limitation to only
twelve different tones” (“My Evolution”). Schönberg encountered
Petrarch through the translation of Karl Förster. The sonnet is set
syllabically: the eleven-syllable lines coincide with the 12-tone row
such that the beginning of each line begins with a new note. The song,
sung by a bass voice, has a lyrical character, and the instruments
participate in conveying the text (text painting becomes apparent at
words like “lion,” “flies,” and “weeps”). The choice of a sonnet by
the classicist Petrarca seems to be paradoxical, for this piece marks
one of Schönberg’s first 12-tone composition. In op. 24 he used only
the prime form (‘Grundgestalt’) of the row but varied it with octave
transpositions. The Dance Scene features several different characters
from a driving march to a lilting waltz; in this movement triads
allude to tonal practices but serve no harmonic function. The Song
without Words conveys a lyrical melody, but Schönberg adds the
sensuous contrast among bowed and plucked strings and winds.
David Raleigh Arnold
Exactly. To elaborate:
Every instrument has its limitations, including the piano, which
for one example is unable to terminate a note in a human way. The
composer has to see limitations as opportunities as well. It is the
limitations of the composer and the player which matter, not those of the
instrument.
I remember Mike Smith (now Michael Cedric Smith) saying, back in the day,
that what attracted him so strongly to bleeding edge music was its
unpredictability. Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Music theory should be clues you can use,
not blues you can't lose.