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Fine Wines and Taste...Red Guitar, Tempranillo
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Che
May 10, 2013, 12:25:08 PM5/10/13
to
expertise in evaluating wines may be more elusive than wine experts would have us believe:
"Because it's hard for people to gauge quality by flavor, they tend to gauge it by price. That's a mistake. [Industry consultant Sue] Langstaff has evaluated wine professionally for twenty years. In her opinion, the difference between a $500 bottle of wine and one that costs $30 is largely hype. 'Wineries that sell their wines for $500 a bottle have the same problems as wineries that sell their wine for $10 a bottle. You can't make the statement that if it's low-cost it's not well made.' Most of the time, people don't even prefer the expensive bottle -- provided they can't see the label. Paul Wagner, a top wine judge and founding contributor to the industry blog Through the Bung-hole, plays a game with his wine-marketing classes at Napa Valley College. The students, most of whom have several years' experience in the industry, are asked to rank six wines, their labels hidden by -- a nice touch here -- brown paper bags. All are wines Wagner himself enjoys. At least one is under $10 and two are over $50. 'Over the past eighteen years, every time,' he told me, 'the least expensive wine averages the highest ranking, and the most expensive two finish at the bottom.' In 2011, a Gallo cabernet scored the highest average rating, and a Chateau Gruaud Larose (which retails from between $60 and $70) took the bottom slot.
"Unscrupulous vendors turn the situation to their advantage. In China, nouveau-riche status-seekers are spending small fortunes on counterfeit Bordeaux. (from Mary Roach)
"Marc Dornan, of the Beverage Testing Institute, for instance, says to anyone who asks him that rating wines on a hundred-point scale, which is now common practice, is 'utterly pseudoscientific.' Tim Hanni, a Master of Wine, believes that most commentary about wines fails to take into account the biological individuality of consumers; he claims that he can predict what sort of wine appeals to you according to such factors as how heavily you salt your food and whether your mother suffered a lot from morning sickness while carrying you. Hanni has said for years that the matching of a particular wine with a particular food is a scam, there being 'absolutely no premise historically, culturally, or biologically for drinking red wine with meat.' As a way of illustrating the role played by anticipation in taste, Frédéric Brochet, who is a researcher with the enology faculty of the University of Bordeaux, recently asked some experts to describe two wines that appeared by their labels to be a distinguished grand-cru classe and a cheap table wine -- actually, Brochet had refilled both bottles with a third, mid-level wine -- and found his subjects mightily impressed by the supposed grand cru and dismissive of the same wine when it was in the vin ordinaire bottle.
"An urge to refute the notion of expertise certainly seemed to be reflected in the headline of an article from the Times of London about the research Brochet has been carrying on -- 'CHEEKY LITTLE TEST EXPOSES WINE 'EXPERTS' AS WEAK AND FLAT.' The headline caught the tone of the article, by Adam Sage, which began, 'Drinkers have long suspected it, but now French researchers have finally proved it: wine 'experts' know no more than the rest of us.' The test of Brochet's that caught my eye consisted partly of asking wine drinkers to describe what appeared to be a white wine and a red wine. They were in fact two glasses of the same white wine, one of which had been colored red with flavorless and odorless dye. The comments about the 'red' wine used what people in the trade call red-wine descriptors. 'It is a well known psychological phenomenon -- you taste what you're expecting to taste,' Brochet said in the Times. 'They were expecting to taste a red wine and so they did. . . . About two or three per cent of people detect the white wine flavour, but invariably they have little experience of wine culture. Connoisseurs tend to fail to do so. The more training they have, the more mistakes they make because they are influenced by the color of the wine.' " (from Calvin Trillin)
http://hungrykyle.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/five-good-wines/
Author: Mary Roach
Title: Gulp
Publisher: W.W. Norton & Company
Date: Copyright 2013 by Mary Roach. Used with permission of the publisher, W.W. Norton & Company
Pages: 29-30
Che'
"Because it's hard for people to gauge quality by flavor, they tend to gauge it by price. That's a mistake. [Industry consultant Sue] Langstaff has evaluated wine professionally for twenty years. In her opinion, the difference between a $500 bottle of wine and one that costs $30 is largely hype. 'Wineries that sell their wines for $500 a bottle have the same problems as wineries that sell their wine for $10 a bottle. You can't make the statement that if it's low-cost it's not well made.' Most of the time, people don't even prefer the expensive bottle -- provided they can't see the label. Paul Wagner, a top wine judge and founding contributor to the industry blog Through the Bung-hole, plays a game with his wine-marketing classes at Napa Valley College. The students, most of whom have several years' experience in the industry, are asked to rank six wines, their labels hidden by -- a nice touch here -- brown paper bags. All are wines Wagner himself enjoys. At least one is under $10 and two are over $50. 'Over the past eighteen years, every time,' he told me, 'the least expensive wine averages the highest ranking, and the most expensive two finish at the bottom.' In 2011, a Gallo cabernet scored the highest average rating, and a Chateau Gruaud Larose (which retails from between $60 and $70) took the bottom slot.
"Unscrupulous vendors turn the situation to their advantage. In China, nouveau-riche status-seekers are spending small fortunes on counterfeit Bordeaux. (from Mary Roach)
"Marc Dornan, of the Beverage Testing Institute, for instance, says to anyone who asks him that rating wines on a hundred-point scale, which is now common practice, is 'utterly pseudoscientific.' Tim Hanni, a Master of Wine, believes that most commentary about wines fails to take into account the biological individuality of consumers; he claims that he can predict what sort of wine appeals to you according to such factors as how heavily you salt your food and whether your mother suffered a lot from morning sickness while carrying you. Hanni has said for years that the matching of a particular wine with a particular food is a scam, there being 'absolutely no premise historically, culturally, or biologically for drinking red wine with meat.' As a way of illustrating the role played by anticipation in taste, Frédéric Brochet, who is a researcher with the enology faculty of the University of Bordeaux, recently asked some experts to describe two wines that appeared by their labels to be a distinguished grand-cru classe and a cheap table wine -- actually, Brochet had refilled both bottles with a third, mid-level wine -- and found his subjects mightily impressed by the supposed grand cru and dismissive of the same wine when it was in the vin ordinaire bottle.
"An urge to refute the notion of expertise certainly seemed to be reflected in the headline of an article from the Times of London about the research Brochet has been carrying on -- 'CHEEKY LITTLE TEST EXPOSES WINE 'EXPERTS' AS WEAK AND FLAT.' The headline caught the tone of the article, by Adam Sage, which began, 'Drinkers have long suspected it, but now French researchers have finally proved it: wine 'experts' know no more than the rest of us.' The test of Brochet's that caught my eye consisted partly of asking wine drinkers to describe what appeared to be a white wine and a red wine. They were in fact two glasses of the same white wine, one of which had been colored red with flavorless and odorless dye. The comments about the 'red' wine used what people in the trade call red-wine descriptors. 'It is a well known psychological phenomenon -- you taste what you're expecting to taste,' Brochet said in the Times. 'They were expecting to taste a red wine and so they did. . . . About two or three per cent of people detect the white wine flavour, but invariably they have little experience of wine culture. Connoisseurs tend to fail to do so. The more training they have, the more mistakes they make because they are influenced by the color of the wine.' " (from Calvin Trillin)
http://hungrykyle.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/five-good-wines/
Author: Mary Roach
Title: Gulp
Publisher: W.W. Norton & Company
Date: Copyright 2013 by Mary Roach. Used with permission of the publisher, W.W. Norton & Company
Pages: 29-30
Che'
JMF
May 11, 2013, 10:31:15 AM5/11/13
to
On 5/10/2013 18:25, Che wrote:
> expertise in evaluating wines may be more elusive than wine experts would have us believe:
There was a big scandal a few years ago here in Tuscany. An organized
> expertise in evaluating wines may be more elusive than wine experts would have us believe:
gang was selling fake Sassicaia wine.
It was eventually busted, but not because somebody realized it was a
different wine.
It was busted because somebody realized it was a different label.
The bad guys went to all that trouble to set up a very complex
operation, and then were too cheap to make decent fake labels. The real
ones have a kind of relief that you can feel when you run your finger
over it. Somebody eventually noticed it wasn't there, and that was that:
busted.
But as far as the fake wine itself was concerned, it could have gone on
for a long time ...
Richard Jernigan
May 11, 2013, 1:07:02 PM5/11/13
to
When I lived in Santa Barbara one of my friends was president of the Wine and Food Society. He had about 500 cases in his cellar, owned shares in the fashionable smaller California wineries, and traveled regularly to France where he had done his post-doc as a Luis Alvarez physics PhD. John was more or less the ringleader of a group of 8 or 10 couples who had monthly dinners.
The dinners rotated from one household to the next. The hosts prepared the meal and chose a variety of wine. They and the guests each brought a bottle in a brown paper bag. The different wines were served with dinner, and after dessert and coffee a vote was taken as to which was the best of the lot.
One night at John's house the variety was Zinfandel. Those were the days of the "monster" Zins, deep purple, tannic, heavily flavored wines, $25-40 in the 1980s. John's was a little lighter, but still full-bodied. It won walking away. John proudly removed the paper bag, revealing a Sutter Home label from almost twenty years before. The Safeway price tag was still affixed and in good condition, $3.98.
Later my Japanese girlfriend and I were eating at Fournou's ovens on the ground floor of the Stanford Court Hotel, atop Nob Hill in San Francisco. We had gotten acquainted with the sommelier over a few years. I asked him if he had any Sutter Home Zinfandel that was around 20 years old. He got a funny look on his face and said he would have to check the book. After a while he came back and said, "Yes."
"How much?"
Another funny look, "Um, $22."
"Sold."
He looked pained as he poured it out to be tasted. "So, are you afraid it won't be any good?" I asked.
"No. We just had two bottles and I was hoping to take them home with me."
It was delicious.
My friend Hiller R. worked for Lockheed Missiles and Space Flight Test. He had a nice house up on the hillside above Sunnyvale with a pool and a sauna, true to his Finnish roots. When we played in the medium stakes poker games at Kwajalein--no more than a few hundred bucks per pot-- Hiller would swig cheap Bourbon and chase it with ice water. After an hour and a half, he would lurch to his feet, head for the toilet, and announce, "Time to contribute to the Russian blood bank."
One day in Sunnyvale he said, "Want to go out to dinner?"
"Sure."
"I've got a card for the Officers' Club at the Treasure Island Naval Station."
"Er, okay..."
"Fifteen years ago they had some guy that bought a lot of good wine. These young Navy officers don't know anything. They've got lots of good mature bottles with the same price as fifteen years ago."
Hiller was right. We paid $7.50 for stuff that was better than the 20-year old bottle I paid $150 for at Ernie's on Valentine's Day--which was pretty good.
RNJ
The dinners rotated from one household to the next. The hosts prepared the meal and chose a variety of wine. They and the guests each brought a bottle in a brown paper bag. The different wines were served with dinner, and after dessert and coffee a vote was taken as to which was the best of the lot.
One night at John's house the variety was Zinfandel. Those were the days of the "monster" Zins, deep purple, tannic, heavily flavored wines, $25-40 in the 1980s. John's was a little lighter, but still full-bodied. It won walking away. John proudly removed the paper bag, revealing a Sutter Home label from almost twenty years before. The Safeway price tag was still affixed and in good condition, $3.98.
Later my Japanese girlfriend and I were eating at Fournou's ovens on the ground floor of the Stanford Court Hotel, atop Nob Hill in San Francisco. We had gotten acquainted with the sommelier over a few years. I asked him if he had any Sutter Home Zinfandel that was around 20 years old. He got a funny look on his face and said he would have to check the book. After a while he came back and said, "Yes."
"How much?"
Another funny look, "Um, $22."
"Sold."
He looked pained as he poured it out to be tasted. "So, are you afraid it won't be any good?" I asked.
"No. We just had two bottles and I was hoping to take them home with me."
It was delicious.
My friend Hiller R. worked for Lockheed Missiles and Space Flight Test. He had a nice house up on the hillside above Sunnyvale with a pool and a sauna, true to his Finnish roots. When we played in the medium stakes poker games at Kwajalein--no more than a few hundred bucks per pot-- Hiller would swig cheap Bourbon and chase it with ice water. After an hour and a half, he would lurch to his feet, head for the toilet, and announce, "Time to contribute to the Russian blood bank."
One day in Sunnyvale he said, "Want to go out to dinner?"
"Sure."
"I've got a card for the Officers' Club at the Treasure Island Naval Station."
"Er, okay..."
"Fifteen years ago they had some guy that bought a lot of good wine. These young Navy officers don't know anything. They've got lots of good mature bottles with the same price as fifteen years ago."
Hiller was right. We paid $7.50 for stuff that was better than the 20-year old bottle I paid $150 for at Ernie's on Valentine's Day--which was pretty good.
RNJ
Richard Jernigan
May 11, 2013, 1:12:46 PM5/11/13
to
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:31:15 AM UTC-5, JMF wrote:
> There was a big scandal a few years ago here in Tuscany.
We were in Tuscany this time last year. Had a blast. A couple of weeks ago we went to a new place here in Austin. Larisa had a glass of Montepulciano d'Abruzzo, $8. It was so good I asked the waiter to show me the label: La Quercia, about $11 a bottle online.
> There was a big scandal a few years ago here in Tuscany.
I checked my regular liquor store for Montepulciano d'Abruzzo. They had three kinds, about $15. The expert recommended one. We were disappointed, decent cheap wine, but without that Tuscan flavor.
RNJ
Richard Jernigan
May 11, 2013, 1:22:35 PM5/11/13
to
As far as guitars go, the $4,500 spruce/Brazilian Abel Garcia gives the Romanillos a good run for the money. (Trilogy is asking $8K for the same model now.) The Romanillos is decidedly better above the 12th fret, but the Garcia is only four years old, and still opening up a bit. Also, it takes a while to adjust to getting the best out of the Romanillos after you've been playing something else. But still...
Garcia went to Romanillos's course in Spain twice. He showed me some wood Romanillos gave him "from earlier in his career." It could be the next few boards from the top of my Romanillos, or Bream's '73, for that matter. But the top of my Garcia is much more according to present cosmetic preferences, close grained, plenty of silk.
RNJ
Garcia went to Romanillos's course in Spain twice. He showed me some wood Romanillos gave him "from earlier in his career." It could be the next few boards from the top of my Romanillos, or Bream's '73, for that matter. But the top of my Garcia is much more according to present cosmetic preferences, close grained, plenty of silk.
RNJ
Che
May 11, 2013, 3:57:13 PM5/11/13
to
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:31:15 AM UTC-5, JMF wrote:
> On 5/10/2013 18:25, Che wrote:
>
> > expertise in evaluating wines may be more elusive than wine experts would have us believe:
>
>
>
> There was a big scandal a few years ago here in Tuscany.<
That was more than a few years ago. I have friends in the food/wine business in Tuscany, San Gimignano . . .it was the very good Tenuta San Guido, blue and gold label. The same thing goes on here not only with wine but seafood mislabeling.
>
> > expertise in evaluating wines may be more elusive than wine experts would have us believe:
>
>
>
> There was a big scandal a few years ago here in Tuscany.<
My friend is married now but says the economy has been hit pretty hard, tourist are down and as you must know, it's hard to fire anyone. I give her $hit about Captain Chicken of the Sea, driving his cruise ship on the rocks, the Amanda Knox prosecutorial fiasco, and you got it; We give you "The Soprano's" and you give us:
http://www.silvio-berlusconi-fc.com/p/all-president-berlusconi-women.html
Now is that Fair Trade?
Che'
JMF
May 11, 2013, 4:18:52 PM5/11/13
to
On 5/11/2013 19:07, Richard Jernigan wrote:
...
> One night at John's house the variety was Zinfandel. Those were the days of the "monster" Zins, deep purple, tannic, heavily flavored wines...
Speaking of Zinfandel, and having spoken of Italy, you might recall the
brouhaha that occurred a while ago: the Californians were particularly
proud of Zinfandel - THE California grape. A delegation from Italy
tasted it and shook their heads, "No, no, no ... this isn't THE
California grape ... this is something else ... this is Primitivo di
Manduria."
The Californians all huffy .. "How dare you!"
Now they can do DNA testing on grapes. They tested. Turned out both were
right and both were wrong: not identical, but have the same ancestor,
from Croatia. Look at a map and you'll see Croatia across the Adriatic
from Puglia, which is where Manduria is. So it's easy to see how it got
there. How it got to California is more "lost in the mists of time."
Or at least that's how it was all told to me. I'm sure it's all much
better documented now.
...
> One night at John's house the variety was Zinfandel. Those were the days of the "monster" Zins, deep purple, tannic, heavily flavored wines...
Speaking of Zinfandel, and having spoken of Italy, you might recall the
brouhaha that occurred a while ago: the Californians were particularly
proud of Zinfandel - THE California grape. A delegation from Italy
tasted it and shook their heads, "No, no, no ... this isn't THE
California grape ... this is something else ... this is Primitivo di
Manduria."
The Californians all huffy .. "How dare you!"
Now they can do DNA testing on grapes. They tested. Turned out both were
right and both were wrong: not identical, but have the same ancestor,
from Croatia. Look at a map and you'll see Croatia across the Adriatic
from Puglia, which is where Manduria is. So it's easy to see how it got
there. How it got to California is more "lost in the mists of time."
Or at least that's how it was all told to me. I'm sure it's all much
better documented now.
JMF
May 11, 2013, 4:23:41 PM5/11/13
to
On 5/11/2013 21:57, Che wrote:
> On Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:31:15 AM UTC-5, JMF wrote:
>> On 5/10/2013 18:25, Che wrote:
>>
>>> expertise in evaluating wines may be more elusive than wine experts would have us believe:
>>
>>
>>
>> There was a big scandal a few years ago here in Tuscany.<
>
> That was more than a few years ago. I have friends in the food/wine business in Tuscany, San Gimignano
. . .it was the very good Tenuta San Guido, blue and gold label.
Yes, although San Guido is more in the Grosseto area, which is quite
> On Saturday, May 11, 2013 9:31:15 AM UTC-5, JMF wrote:
>> On 5/10/2013 18:25, Che wrote:
>>
>>> expertise in evaluating wines may be more elusive than wine experts would have us believe:
>>
>>
>>
>> There was a big scandal a few years ago here in Tuscany.<
>
> That was more than a few years ago. I have friends in the food/wine business in Tuscany, San Gimignano
. . .it was the very good Tenuta San Guido, blue and gold label.
up-and-coming now.
The same thing goes on here not only with wine but seafood mislabeling.
>
> My friend is married now but says the economy has been hit pretty hard, tourist are down and
as you must know, it's hard to fire anyone. I give her $hit about
Captain Chicken of the Sea,
driving his cruise ship on the rocks, the Amanda Knox prosecutorial
fiasco, and you got it
; We give you "The Soprano's" and you give us:
> http://www.silvio-berlusconi-fc.com/p/all-president-berlusconi-women.html
Che
May 11, 2013, 4:26:15 PM5/11/13
to
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 12:22:35 PM UTC-5, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> As far as guitars go, the $4,500 spruce/Brazilian Abel Garcia<
I don't know about now but A. Garcia had some butt-ugly labels in his guitars with his address and phone number.
> As far as guitars go, the $4,500 spruce/Brazilian Abel Garcia<
Richard Jernigan
May 12, 2013, 12:58:57 PM5/12/13
to
http://www.trilogyguitars.com/www2/shop/guitar/2009-abel-garcia
..and then there's the Aztec-ish look of the rosette. Mine is 654 mm scale, 54 mm nut, as I ordered, not 645mm like the Trilogy example.
But damn you, Che, now I'm going to have to sell the guitar. I'll never be able to play it again, thinking about that label!
RNJ
Che
May 13, 2013, 12:39:03 PM5/13/13
to
Guerrero No. 383 (452) 5-02-39 does this jive with your buyers information? Sometimes it's the small inconsequential things that strike me. Last I was in Paracho was 1998 and that was because my girlfriend wanted to see the little guitar town. No doubt Abel makes some very nice guitars. One would think, as cheap as art work and good quality paper is, he would have been a little more discerning with what he was signing his name on.
I did look at the Garcia on the Trilogy site and there again I noted the 52 mm nut. I wondered, we are both large men, how could you play a guitar with a 52 mm nut? I'm glad to see yours has a 54 mm nut, size counts.
>But damn you, Che, now I'm going to have to sell the guitar. I'll never be able to play it again, thinking about that label!<
I usually have cash in my bag, bank wrapped. As a joke we might go in together and look at their $8,000.00 Garcia. I might express exactly how torn I was and say, I really love this guitar as I played it, then turn it, soundhole towards me, and say. . ."but I just can't live with this butt-ugly label inside." I would be interested to see exactly how a salesman might try and sell me on that.
>..and then there's the Aztec-ish look of the rosette.< If a guitar fits you, is highly playable with a very quick response and depth of tone/color to suit you what it looks like doesn't mean that much to me. My focus starts at the bridge and terminates at the machines. . .all the rest is adornment.
When you look at that label from now until time runneth not, displace that intrusive thought with this: "This was a steal at less than 4K, have empathy for her poor label."
Does that work for you?
Che'
thomas
May 13, 2013, 4:34:45 PM5/13/13
to
On Monday, May 13, 2013 12:39:03 PM UTC-4, Che wrote:
>
> I usually have cash in my bag, bank wrapped. As a joke we might go in together and look at their $8,000.00 Garcia. I might express exactly how torn I was and say, I really love this guitar as I played it, then turn it, soundhole towards me, and say. . ."but I just can't live with this butt-ugly label inside." I would be interested to see exactly how a salesman might try and sell me on that.
>
That does sound like fun. I was once in Guitar Center decades ago, buying some electronic doodad. We agreed on a price and then the salesman pulled the old "I'll have to approve that price with my manager" trick. He came back with a higher price, of course. I told him I'd have to approve the new price with my wife who was waiting out in the car. Then I walked out the door and never went back.
>
> I usually have cash in my bag, bank wrapped. As a joke we might go in together and look at their $8,000.00 Garcia. I might express exactly how torn I was and say, I really love this guitar as I played it, then turn it, soundhole towards me, and say. . ."but I just can't live with this butt-ugly label inside." I would be interested to see exactly how a salesman might try and sell me on that.
>
Che
May 13, 2013, 4:42:09 PM5/13/13
to
Richard Jernigan
May 14, 2013, 1:48:02 PM5/14/13
to
In fact, in December 2006 I went to Morelia, Patzcuaro and Uruapan on vacation. Stayed at a nice hotel in Uruapan. Enjoyed how much Uruapan had prospered since the first time I went there more than 55 years ago. Went to Paracho, telling myself, "I'm just going to look around, I won't buy any guitars."
Checked in at Carlos Piña's, the Rubios, Navarro and Castillo, all on or just off the main drag. All had decent guitars, nothing to write home about. None of them had a top of the line guitar to try. Ran into a pro flamenco player at Castillo's, there to pick up a blanca he ordered. Said he was going to get electronics put into it for gigging. He was from Chicago, said Brune had turned him on to Castillo. His cajon player was with him. We jammed a little on the new guitar and a student model blanca Castillo had in the shop--not bad, but didn't really get me going.
Found Arturo Huipe's place in a big family compound a couple of blocks off the main drag. He had dozens of guitars, mostly unfinished, hanging in a big humidity controlled room. I played a few. I liked some of them better than what I had played so far that day, and I liked Huipe, a personable young guy. He brought out a couple of cedar/cocobolo "Fleta style" guitars that looked exactly alike. The tops could have been successive boards off the same billet. He said one was French polished, the other nitro lacquer. The French polished one was the best guitar I had played up until then that day, by a fairly wide margin--$1600. I bought it. It's loud, nice bright tone, responsive, but doesn't have the full range of tone quality I would look for in a top of the line guitar.
At the 2003 GFA in Merida I ended up at the hotel where the main concert guys were staying, and some other guitar people whose names would be familiar here. There ended up being a guitar table at breakfast every morning. One of the people was Carlos Bernal, the Mexican guitarist who gave an all-20th Century concert. He teaches at a conservatory in Switzerland and concertizes in Europe. I liked the sound of his guitar and asked him about it. He told me about Abel Garcia.
So I had found Garcia's address on the internet (I thought) and looked up the place while I was in Paracho. Turns out the address was wrong. But Paracho is just a big village, and the guy painting the house next door knew Garcia's correct address.
I went and knocked on the door. After a long wait, his wife appeared and asked me what i wanted. I said I wanted to speak to Sr. Garcia. She said he was busy. I said I could come back later. She said he didn't see casual visitors. I said I wasn't exactly casual, I wanted to play one of his guitars. She said he didn't have any to try out. I kept standing there, and she said she would go ask. She left me standing on the sidewalk on a decidedly cold December day. I have never been treated so rudely by an "educated" Mexican.
After a long wait, Garcia showed up, but he didn't invite me in. He said he didn't have any guitars to try. I said I had heard Bernal's, and liked it. Garcia said, well, he did have the small Torres model he had made for his daughter. At last he invited me in and brought me his daughter's guitar. It was spruce/Brazilian, the small Torres plantilla, short scale, maybe as short as 635 mm.
I played the guitar a bit. It was great. It had the best 3rd string I had played--at least right off the bat. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what a guitar has got to offer, but this one was an immediate hit. I asked about prices and waiting times, thanked Garcia, and herded the rental car back down the twisty mountain road to Uruapan, among the gasoline tankers practicing to be Formula One stars.
The next morning, I got up at the swanky hotel in Uruapan, ate a really great breakfast with an American fruit importer and his Guatemalan partner, went back to my room and called Garcia, telling him I wanted to talk about ordering a guitar.
That afternoon in Paracho he took me up to his beautiful workshop on the roof of his nice stone house, with a view of the mountains all around. We talked for most of an hour. He told me he had been to Romanillos' course in Spain twice, and showed me some wood Romanillos had given him. It looked like it was from the same billet as my '73 and Bream's famous #501. I told him what I liked about my Romanillos. He showed me some Brazilian sets from his big humidity controlled stash. I picked one, and told him I didn't even want to look at tops--he was the expert, he was to pick the top.
The price was $4.500. I think the up charge for Brazilian was $1,000, but I don't remember for certain. During our talk Garcia said he could make an equally good guitar from Indian, cocobolo or palo escrito. I took him at his word. He has written a book about guitar making woods, published by a university press. He said making a guitar out of Brazilian was like "putting jewelry on it." I told him I was an old fart, used to Brazilian, and he had the nicest looking sets I had seen in 20 years.
After a 2 1/2 year wait, Garcia shipped the guitar to my daughter who was living in the house I had bought in Austin. I didn't get to play it until February, 2010, after I retired. It blew me away. It still does.
I don't remember ever seeing a Garcia label before I looked at mine in Texas. It looked Mexican, which was fine by me. You would probably like Huipe's label, nice, simple and elegant, like Fleta's.
I have never bought a guitar from anyone except the maker--if you considered Jose Ramitez III the maker of the 1a guitars with his label in them. Contreras Sr., Manzanero and Bernabe all said that Ramirez's guitars were definitely Ramirez's guitars. It was his way or the highway, He closely inspected every one that he signed, and rejected those that didn't measure up. But of the couple dozen that I bought from him and brought to the USA, I sold every one of them, doubling my money. I may have kept a few for a couple of months, playing them, but in the end I sold them. I still have the 1a blanca my wife gave me when we got married. It was the first good guitar I ever had.
So Che, I apologize for horrifying you with the mistaken impression that I actually may have gone to a guitar boutique. Well, I did go to La Guitarreria in Paris one time, but I didn't buy anything....walked past Bouchet's shop on the way, but he had retired...
Time for a sandwich and then to the hi-fi shop to see if they still have the speakers I want for my computer/photo processing/ guitar playing room
RNJ
Che
May 14, 2013, 2:27:53 PM5/14/13
to
http://tinyurl.com/cxfx96l
I'll reread this again later.
Adios,
Che' deGuy
Che
May 15, 2013, 4:14:22 AM5/15/13
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On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:48:02 PM UTC-5, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> On Monday, May 13, 2013 11:39:03 AM UTC-5, Che wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, May 12, 2013 11:58:57 AM UTC-5, Richard Jernigan wrote:
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> >
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> > > On Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, Che wrote:
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> > > > On Saturday, May 11, 2013 12:22:35 PM UTC-5, Richard Jernigan wrote:
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> > > But damn you, Che, now I'm going to have to sell the guitar. I'll never be able to play it again, thinking about that label!<
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> > Hmmm...no address or phone number, but the label on mine does say "Paracho". And it does have a sort of Mexican Baroque look to it.
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> > Guerrero No. 383 (452) 5-02-39 does this jive with your buyers information? Sometimes it's the small inconsequential things that strike me. Last I was in Paracho was 1998 and that was because my girlfriend wanted to see the little guitar town. No doubt Abel makes some very nice guitars. One would think, as cheap as art work and good quality paper is, he would have been a little more discerning with what he was signing his name on.
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> > I did look at the Garcia on the Trilogy site and there again I noted the 52 mm nut. I wondered, we are both large men, how could you play a guitar with a 52 mm nut? I'm glad to see yours has a 54 mm nut, size counts.
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> >
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> > >But damn you, Che, now I'm going to have to sell the guitar. I'll never be able to play it again, thinking about that label!<
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> > Richard, I'm going to grant you "special dispensation," you can rediscover your affection for your Garcia, under one condition. You must promise not to ever actually buy a guitar at a/the Guitar Boutique. Hombre, this is the sort of thing that really embaressess me. To think, you phoned ahead and made an appointment to shop their prized and coveted international flavored objects de Art. at premium prices . .. is beneath the dignity of a comprehending guitarist. It's a guitar(s), a Tool not Tiffany's. I could enlarge upon this but in short; when I'm interested in a guitar, most often but not always, I'm not interested in discussion with the salesman or much he/she has to say, it's a distraction.
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> >
>
> > I usually have cash in my bag, bank wrapped. As a joke we might go in together and look at their $8,000.00 Garcia. I might express exactly how torn I was and say, I really love this guitar as I played it, then turn it, soundhole towards me, and say. . ."but I just can't live with this butt-ugly label inside." I would be interested to see exactly how a salesman might try and sell me on that.
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> >
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> > >..and then there's the Aztec-ish look of the rosette.< If a guitar fits you, is highly playable with a very quick response and depth of tone/color to suit you what it looks like doesn't mean that much to me. My focus starts at the bridge and terminates at the machines. . .all the rest is adornment.
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> > When you look at that label from now until time runneth not, displace that intrusive thought with this: "This was a steal at less than 4K, have empathy for her poor label."
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> > Does that work for you?
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> > Che'
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> It's easy to see I may have given a mistaken impression by linking to Trilogy. I just wanted the casual tourist to be able to appreciated the aesthetic splendor of that Mexican Baroque label.<
Taste differ. . .I call it Poor Peon Scribble.
> On Monday, May 13, 2013 11:39:03 AM UTC-5, Che wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, May 12, 2013 11:58:57 AM UTC-5, Richard Jernigan wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, Che wrote:
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > > On Saturday, May 11, 2013 12:22:35 PM UTC-5, Richard Jernigan wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > But damn you, Che, now I'm going to have to sell the guitar. I'll never be able to play it again, thinking about that label!<
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hmmm...no address or phone number, but the label on mine does say "Paracho". And it does have a sort of Mexican Baroque look to it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Guerrero No. 383 (452) 5-02-39 does this jive with your buyers information? Sometimes it's the small inconsequential things that strike me. Last I was in Paracho was 1998 and that was because my girlfriend wanted to see the little guitar town. No doubt Abel makes some very nice guitars. One would think, as cheap as art work and good quality paper is, he would have been a little more discerning with what he was signing his name on.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I did look at the Garcia on the Trilogy site and there again I noted the 52 mm nut. I wondered, we are both large men, how could you play a guitar with a 52 mm nut? I'm glad to see yours has a 54 mm nut, size counts.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >But damn you, Che, now I'm going to have to sell the guitar. I'll never be able to play it again, thinking about that label!<
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Richard, I'm going to grant you "special dispensation," you can rediscover your affection for your Garcia, under one condition. You must promise not to ever actually buy a guitar at a/the Guitar Boutique. Hombre, this is the sort of thing that really embaressess me. To think, you phoned ahead and made an appointment to shop their prized and coveted international flavored objects de Art. at premium prices . .. is beneath the dignity of a comprehending guitarist. It's a guitar(s), a Tool not Tiffany's. I could enlarge upon this but in short; when I'm interested in a guitar, most often but not always, I'm not interested in discussion with the salesman or much he/she has to say, it's a distraction.
>
> >
>
> > I usually have cash in my bag, bank wrapped. As a joke we might go in together and look at their $8,000.00 Garcia. I might express exactly how torn I was and say, I really love this guitar as I played it, then turn it, soundhole towards me, and say. . ."but I just can't live with this butt-ugly label inside." I would be interested to see exactly how a salesman might try and sell me on that.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >..and then there's the Aztec-ish look of the rosette.< If a guitar fits you, is highly playable with a very quick response and depth of tone/color to suit you what it looks like doesn't mean that much to me. My focus starts at the bridge and terminates at the machines. . .all the rest is adornment.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > When you look at that label from now until time runneth not, displace that intrusive thought with this: "This was a steal at less than 4K, have empathy for her poor label."
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> >
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> >
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> >
>
> > Does that work for you?
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> > Che'
>
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> It's easy to see I may have given a mistaken impression by linking to Trilogy. I just wanted the casual tourist to be able to appreciated the aesthetic splendor of that Mexican Baroque label.<
>
>
>
> In fact, in December 2006 I went to Morelia, Patzcuaro and Uruapan on vacation. Stayed at a nice hotel in Uruapan. Enjoyed how much Uruapan had prospered since the first time I went there more than 55 years ago. Went to Paracho, telling myself, "I'm just going to look around, I won't buy any guitars."
>
>
>
> Checked in at Carlos Piña's, the Rubios, Navarro and Castillo, all on or just off the main drag. All had decent guitars, nothing to write home about. None of them had a top of the line guitar to try. Ran into a pro flamenco player at Castillo's, there to pick up a blanca he ordered. Said he was going to get electronics put into it for gigging. He was from Chicago, said Brune had turned him on to Castillo. His cajon player was with him. We jammed a little on the new guitar and a student model blanca Castillo had in the shop--not bad, but didn't really get me going.
>
>
>
> Found Arturo Huipe's place in a big family compound a couple of blocks off the main drag. He had dozens of guitars, mostly unfinished, hanging in a big humidity controlled room. I played a few. I liked some of them better than what I had played so far that day, and I liked Huipe, a personable young guy. He brought out a couple of cedar/cocobolo "Fleta style" guitars that looked exactly alike. The tops could have been successive boards off the same billet. He said one was French polished, the other nitro lacquer. The French polished one was the best guitar I had played up until then that day, by a fairly wide margin--$1600. I bought it. It's loud, nice bright tone, responsive, but doesn't have the full range of tone quality I would look for in a top of the line guitar.<
>
>
>
> At the 2003 GFA in Merida I ended up at the hotel where the main concert guys were staying, and some other guitar people whose names would be familiar here. There ended up being a guitar table at breakfast every morning. One of the people was Carlos Bernal, the Mexican guitarist who gave an all-20th Century concert. He teaches at a conservatory in Switzerland and concertizes in Europe. I liked the sound of his guitar and asked him about it. He told me about Abel Garcia.<
Carlos Bernal was a big Fleta man, that surprises me. A great guitar is where you find it and Bernal demands great tone. He has a place in Ecuador now.
>
>
> Checked in at Carlos Piña's, the Rubios, Navarro and Castillo, all on or just off the main drag. All had decent guitars, nothing to write home about. None of them had a top of the line guitar to try. Ran into a pro flamenco player at Castillo's, there to pick up a blanca he ordered. Said he was going to get electronics put into it for gigging. He was from Chicago, said Brune had turned him on to Castillo. His cajon player was with him. We jammed a little on the new guitar and a student model blanca Castillo had in the shop--not bad, but didn't really get me going.
>
>
>
> Found Arturo Huipe's place in a big family compound a couple of blocks off the main drag. He had dozens of guitars, mostly unfinished, hanging in a big humidity controlled room. I played a few. I liked some of them better than what I had played so far that day, and I liked Huipe, a personable young guy. He brought out a couple of cedar/cocobolo "Fleta style" guitars that looked exactly alike. The tops could have been successive boards off the same billet. He said one was French polished, the other nitro lacquer. The French polished one was the best guitar I had played up until then that day, by a fairly wide margin--$1600. I bought it. It's loud, nice bright tone, responsive, but doesn't have the full range of tone quality I would look for in a top of the line guitar.<
>
>
>
> At the 2003 GFA in Merida I ended up at the hotel where the main concert guys were staying, and some other guitar people whose names would be familiar here. There ended up being a guitar table at breakfast every morning. One of the people was Carlos Bernal, the Mexican guitarist who gave an all-20th Century concert. He teaches at a conservatory in Switzerland and concertizes in Europe. I liked the sound of his guitar and asked him about it. He told me about Abel Garcia.<
>
>
>
> So I had found Garcia's address on the internet (I thought) and looked up the place while I was in Paracho. Turns out the address was wrong. But Paracho is just a big village, and the guy painting the house next door knew Garcia's correct address.
>
>
>
> I went and knocked on the door. After a long wait, his wife appeared and asked me what i wanted. I said I wanted to speak to Sr. Garcia. She said he was busy. I said I could come back later. She said he didn't see casual visitors. I said I wasn't exactly casual, I wanted to play one of his guitars. She said he didn't have any to try out. I kept standing there, and she said she would go ask. She left me standing on the sidewalk on a decidedly cold December day. I have never been treated so rudely by an "educated" Mexican.<
>
>
>
> After a long wait, Garcia showed up, but he didn't invite me in. He said he didn't have any guitars to try. I said I had heard Bernal's, and liked it. Garcia said, well, he did have the small Torres model he had made for his daughter. At last he invited me in and brought me his daughter's guitar. It was spruce/Brazilian, the small Torres plantilla, short scale, maybe as short as 635 mm.
>
>
>
> I played the guitar a bit. It was great. It had the best 3rd string I had played--at least right off the bat. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what a guitar has got to offer, but this one was an immediate hit. I asked about prices and waiting times, thanked Garcia, and herded the rental car back down the twisty mountain road to Uruapan, among the gasoline tankers practicing to be Formula One stars.<
Ain't that the truth.
>
>
> After a long wait, Garcia showed up, but he didn't invite me in. He said he didn't have any guitars to try. I said I had heard Bernal's, and liked it. Garcia said, well, he did have the small Torres model he had made for his daughter. At last he invited me in and brought me his daughter's guitar. It was spruce/Brazilian, the small Torres plantilla, short scale, maybe as short as 635 mm.
>
>
>
> I played the guitar a bit. It was great. It had the best 3rd string I had played--at least right off the bat. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what a guitar has got to offer, but this one was an immediate hit. I asked about prices and waiting times, thanked Garcia, and herded the rental car back down the twisty mountain road to Uruapan, among the gasoline tankers practicing to be Formula One stars.<
>
>
>
> The next morning, I got up at the swanky hotel in Uruapan, ate a really great breakfast with an American fruit importer and his Guatemalan partner, went back to my room and called Garcia, telling him I wanted to talk about ordering a guitar.
>
>
>
> That afternoon in Paracho he took me up to his beautiful workshop on the roof of his nice stone house, with a view of the mountains all around. We talked for most of an hour. He told me he had been to Romanillos' course in Spain twice, and showed me some wood Romanillos had given him. It looked like it was from the same billet as my '73 and Bream's famous #501. I told him what I liked about my Romanillos. He showed me some Brazilian sets from his big humidity controlled stash. I picked one, and told him I didn't even want to look at tops--he was the expert, he was to pick the top.
>
>
>
> The price was $4.500. I think the up charge for Brazilian was $1,000, but I don't remember for certain. During our talk Garcia said he could make an equally good guitar from Indian, cocobolo or palo escrito. I took him at his word. He has written a book about guitar making woods, published by a university press. He said making a guitar out of Brazilian was like "putting jewelry on it." I told him I was an old fart, used to Brazilian, and he had the nicest looking sets I had seen in 20 years.
>
>
>
> After a 2 1/2 year wait, Garcia shipped the guitar to my daughter who was living in the house I had bought in Austin. I didn't get to play it until February, 2010, after I retired. It blew me away. It still does.
>
>
>
> I don't remember ever seeing a Garcia label before I looked at mine in Texas. It looked Mexican, which was fine by me. You would probably like Huipe's label, nice, simple and elegant, like Fleta's.
>
>
>
> I have never bought a guitar from anyone except the maker--if you considered Jose Ramitez III the maker of the 1a guitars with his label in them. Contreras Sr., Manzanero and Bernabe all said that Ramirez's guitars were definitely Ramirez's guitars. It was his way or the highway, He closely inspected every one that he signed, and rejected those that didn't measure up. But of the couple dozen that I bought from him and brought to the USA, I sold every one of them, doubling my money. I may have kept a few for a couple of months, playing them, but in the end I sold them. I still have the 1a blanca my wife gave me when we got married. It was the first good guitar I ever had.
>
>
>
> So Che, I apologize for horrifying you with the mistaken impression that I actually may have gone to a guitar boutique. Well, I did go to La Guitarreria in Paris one time, but I didn't buy anything....walked past Bouchet's shop on the way, but he had retired...<
Recall, I began this thread about labels and mentioned how sometimes it's the *inconsequential* I pick up on. If you have a guitar that pleases you, who am I or anyone else reason to give you cause for concern.
I sometimes bought guitars way ahead of their becoming known. Some may recall my old Savino. It turned out that Mo, Stan Yates and a few other big players bought those Savino's during a very brief time span. Then they were gone. M. Thames was another. . .in fact, I remember telling him to get a computer at the time.
Some years ago in Austin my girlfriend and I went to Lamme's Candies at that shopping center on west Anderson Lane, bounded by Northcross to the southeast.
We bought the Longhorns, on the way out cut through the Guitar Center. My car was parked on that side of the mall. I can still recall the disgust I registered
surrounded by all those cheesy, candy colored guitars. We didn't stop, just walked through the store.
On the other hand I often went to Rewards and Texas Clothier's http://www.texasclothier.com/ the great Vietnamese supermarket on Research Dr.. .and Gas Pipe Willie's. The closest I've been to Austin in the past five years is Smithville, 40 miles to the east. Tourist traffic on weekends now is becoming a little overwhelming. That's what I hated most about Austin, madding traffic and full parking lots.
Enjoy your Garcia.
Che'
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