On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:51:57 AM UTC-5, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:
> There have been documented cases where people died on the operating table...... their brains not functioning, they were clinically dead, then came back to life and told the doctors of their conversations. This should be impossible if the brain stopped functioning, their auditory nerves, and visual capacity were not functioning.
I'd be interested in reading about these. A link or a reference?
> As far as some type of DMT experience etc. it's just conjecture, it's scientific fluff! There is no evidence of this hypothesis, it's simply the only thing scientists can come up working within their self imposed limitations.
I agree that the brain malfunction explanation of near death experiences is just a guess, with little supporting evidence. That's why I ended that discussion with a question, not a statement. But I don't think we can say it's the only thing science can come up with. People haven't stopped working on how the brain functions.
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 1:50:37 AM UTC-5, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:
> Guess you failed to actually read the full linked content..
I didn't notice any written content that was linked. I did listen to the whole YouTube post. Did I miss something?
> Because he was being constantly monitored during the coma and there was zero brain activity.. His cortex was completely shut down.... his mind was doing absolutely nothing..
Some brain activity was going on, else his heart would have stopped beating. Your statement appears to identify the mind with the cortex, yet other parts of the brain play a key role in consciousness. Visual stimuli are processed in the thalamus before abstracted information is passed to the cortex. The amygdala plays a key role in memory, though it's not clear at present exactly how it works.
I am not saying science will be able to explain consciousness. All I'm saying is that we don't know whether it will be able to.
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 2:24:12 AM UTC-5, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:
> To hell with the myth of progress and its wretched chronological snobbery! I spit on all of it!
I agree that we overestimate the extent of our knowledge and abilities, sometimes disastrously. The recent financial crisis should make that clear to anyone. But if you disdain any idea of progress, I hope you don't come down with a severe infection as I did a couple of years ago.
As my son was driving me home from my four-day stay in the hospital, I said to him, "If I had been in Yap or Laos, where I have been recently, you would be arranging a funeral, not driving your Dad home from the hospital, grateful to the surgeon and to the discoverer of vancomycin."
My grandfather died in 1966 from complications of a ruptured appendix. He was 86 years old. At that time my brother was Head of the Flight Medicine Branch of the NASA Manned Spaceflight Center, deep into the Apollo moon landing program. After Grandfather died my brother and I mused over why he had refused to go to the hospital despite feeling very ill for several days, and being advised to do so by his trusted family physician.
Then it dawned on us. We had heard more than once the account of our great-grandfather being seriously wounded at the battle of Shiloh in the Civil War. He was fortunate to be able to avoid the hospital, to make it back to his plantation to be cared for by his own people, and to survive, intact and irascible, into the early 20th century. For most of Grandfather's lifetime, the hospital was somewhere you went to die, not a place where you went to get well.
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:53:48 AM UTC-7, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> I agree that we overestimate the extent of our knowledge and abilities, sometimes disastrously. The recent financial crisis should make that clear to anyone. But if you disdain any idea of progress, I hope you don't come down with a severe infection as I did a couple of years ago....
Unfortunately, such progress - rather, development - has been more than offset by, for example, the legalized hiring of surgical hitmen to snuff out inconvenient fetal humans. The body count since 1973 is now something like 50,000,000. Progress? Is somebody kidding?
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:18:01 AM UTC-6, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:51:57 AM UTC-5, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:
> > There have been documented cases where people died on the operating table...... their brains not functioning, they were clinically dead, then came back to life and told the doctors of their conversations. This should be impossible if the brain stopped functioning, their auditory nerves, and visual capacity were not functioning.
> I'd be interested in reading about these. A link or a reference?
> > As far as some type of DMT experience etc. it's just conjecture, it's scientific fluff! There is no evidence of this hypothesis, it's simply the only thing scientists can come up working within their self imposed limitations.
> I agree that the brain malfunction explanation of near death experiences is just a guess, with little supporting evidence. That's why I ended that discussion with a question, not a statement. But I don't think we can say it's the only thing science can come up with. People haven't stopped working on how the brain functions.
> > Science is not able to address consciousness.
> In my opinion, it remains to be seen.
> RNJ
There was a case in which a women died on the operating table, her heart stopped for 4 or 5 minutes, when she came back she could recall word for word the conversation the doctors were having, she even saw a red pair of shoes on the roof of the building, and low and behold there was a red pair of shoes on the roof they found. There are hundreds of similar stories from documented reports of doctors. When the brain is clinically dead there is no way to hear sound or see things yet people do.
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:18:01 AM UTC-6, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:51:57 AM UTC-5, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > There have been documented cases where people died on the operating table...... their brains not functioning, they were clinically dead, then came back to life and told the doctors of their conversations. This should be impossible if the brain stopped functioning, their auditory nerves, and visual capacity were not functioning.
> > I'd be interested in reading about these. A link or a reference?
> > > As far as some type of DMT experience etc. it's just conjecture, it's scientific fluff! There is no evidence of this hypothesis, it's simply the only thing scientists can come up working within their self imposed limitations.
> > I agree that the brain malfunction explanation of near death experiences is just a guess, with little supporting evidence. That's why I ended that discussion with a question, not a statement. But I don't think we can say it's the only thing science can come up with. People haven't stopped working on how the brain functions.
> > > Science is not able to address consciousness.
> > In my opinion, it remains to be seen.
> > RNJ
> There was a case in which a women died on the operating table, her heart stopped for 4 or 5 minutes, when she came back she could recall word for word the conversation the doctors were having, she even saw a red pair of shoes on the roof of the building, and low and behold there was a red pair of shoes on the roof they found. There are hundreds of similar stories from documented reports of doctors. When the brain is clinically dead there is no way to hear sound or see things yet people do.
That is what happened to me, I was gone about two minutes. I do have
memories of things that happened during that time but don't want to
get into that now, for various reasons.
When you talk about brain dead, that is permanent death, no return
ticket. During clinical death the brain is not dead. Measurable
brain activity stops, but it hasn't permanently shut down yet.
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 11:36:17 AM UTC-6, Dick Cheney wrote:
> On Oct 10, 12:28 pm, dewachen1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:18:01 AM UTC-6, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:51:57 AM UTC-5, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > There have been documented cases where people died on the operating table...... their brains not functioning, they were clinically dead, then came back to life and told the doctors of their conversations. This should be impossible if the brain stopped functioning, their auditory nerves, and visual capacity were not functioning.
> > > I'd be interested in reading about these. A link or a reference?
> > > > As far as some type of DMT experience etc. it's just conjecture, it's scientific fluff! There is no evidence of this hypothesis, it's simply the only thing scientists can come up working within their self imposed limitations.
> > > I agree that the brain malfunction explanation of near death experiences is just a guess, with little supporting evidence. That's why I ended that discussion with a question, not a statement. But I don't think we can say it's the only thing science can come up with. People haven't stopped working on how the brain functions.
> > > > Science is not able to address consciousness.
> > > In my opinion, it remains to be seen.
> > > RNJ
> > There was a case in which a women died on the operating table, her heart stopped for 4 or 5 minutes, when she came back she could recall word for word the conversation the doctors were having, she even saw a red pair of shoes on the roof of the building, and low and behold there was a red pair of shoes on the roof they found. There are hundreds of similar stories from documented reports of doctors. When the brain is clinically dead there is no way to hear sound or see things yet people do.
Yea, there are a whole bunch of those stories because it's reality. BTW, was your brain clinically dead when you concocted your ghost story......... never mind, you don't have to answer that.
> There was a case in which a women died on the operating table, her heart stopped for 4 or 5 minutes, when she came back she could recall word for word the conversation the doctors were >having...
I know a first hand account of something similar. A doctor from the
SICU where I play told me this - he and another doctor where at the
bedside of a clinically dead patient, no pulse, no respiration, though
they thought he was already permanently gone. Both doctors were choir
singers and they sang, softly, Sweet Low, Sweet Chariot. They were
not being disrespectful in any way.
They left, nurses came in to prepare the body to be removed. The
patient revived, was not resuscitated, just came to. Rare, but it
happens sometimes.
My friend saw him at bedside the next day and the patient said, "I
can't believe you did that to me!" The doctor said, "What?" The
patient said, "I can't believe you sang Sweet Low, Sweet Chariot."
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 11:07:06 PM UTC-6, Andrew Schulman wrote:
> On Oct 10, 1:28 pm, dewachen1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > There was a case in which a women died on the operating table, her heart stopped for 4 or 5 minutes, when she came back she could recall word for word the conversation the doctors were >having...
> I know a first hand account of something similar. A doctor from the
> SICU where I play told me this - he and another doctor where at the
> bedside of a clinically dead patient, no pulse, no respiration, though
> they thought he was already permanently gone. Both doctors were choir
> singers and they sang, softly, Sweet Low, Sweet Chariot. They were
> not being disrespectful in any way.
> They left, nurses came in to prepare the body to be removed. The
> patient revived, was not resuscitated, just came to. Rare, but it
> happens sometimes.
> My friend saw him at bedside the next day and the patient said, "I
> can't believe you did that to me!" The doctor said, "What?" The
> patient said, "I can't believe you sang Sweet Low, Sweet Chariot."
> Andrew
Amazing! according to conventional medical science this could not have happened, yet, it seems people experience a heightened awareness beyond sensory perceptions. This to me is why atheists are just plain lazy thinkers, there is so much more to the body mind connections than meets the eye.
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:53:48 AM UTC-7, Richard Jernigan wrote:
>> I agree that we overestimate the extent of our knowledge and abilities, sometimes disastrously. The recent financial crisis should make that clear to anyone. But if you disdain any idea of progress, I hope you don't come down with a severe infection as I did a couple of years ago....
> Unfortunately, such progress - rather, development - has been more than offset by, for example, the legalized hiring of surgical hitmen to snuff out inconvenient fetal humans. The body count since 1973 is now something like 50,000,000. Progress? Is somebody kidding?
> Amazing! according to conventional medical science this could not have happened...
The people I work with every week are in the "conventional medical
science" world except that for all kinds of reasons that world has
evolved a lot. For instance, they think having a classical guitarist
in the SICU 3 days a week (and other musicians from the music therapy
department on other days) is a good idea. For good reason, they see
it helps the healing process. They base that on observable data.
There is a computer monitor at each bedside showing the vital signs.
Likewise, my story was observable. The patient was clinically dead,
but later knew the name of the tune.
