Beginner Lutes?

[JPD]

Ok, who makes reasonable "beginner" lutes that I can just order
online? I'm talking about the equivalent of a Yamaha C-40 or similar.
One for Dowland and one for Weiss.

[Fadosolrélamisi]

Where is Crim when you need him???
you are pulling a weighty net by a single knot ...
Me being just a guitar player (not yet thinking about the dark side)
I use the usual google suspect search engine and found this ...

http://www.luteshop.co.uk/firstlute.htm

Still haven't found any lute but this seems interesting ...

http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners

Ha ... here is a place ... used ... but which one?

http://cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html

Got it (the preceding link) from this source ...

http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/thinking-of-taking-up-the-lute

[JPD]

The first link gives this tasty food for thought:

Six courses: core repertoire is c.1500 - c.1600, including most
vihuela music (because the tuning of the vihuela is the same as the
lute). Later music (up to c.1610) is often playable with the odd bass
note up an octave. There are lots of good songs in a variety of styles
and languages. About half of Dowland's solo music requires no more
than six courses.

Seven courses: core repertoire is c.1580 - c.1610, but because there
is only one "extra" course, music written for six courses doesn't
suffer too much, especially if octave stringing is used where
necessary. The ideal instrument for Dowland's best-known lute solos
and songs. Main drawback: you have to tune the 7th course to D or F,
and changing from one to the other ideally involves changing the
string itself - not the sort of thing you can do in the middle of a
concert.

Eight courses: As for seven courses, but this is definitely a big step
away from the six-course lute, and some of the most difficult seven-
course music is even more difficult to play because the 7th course
isn't tuned to D (though I have heard that some people do exactly
that, tune the 7th to D and the 8th to F). Main advantage: D and F are
both available at all times. Not much music written specifically for
eight courses. Much nine- and ten-course music fits if the 8th is
tuned down to C.

Nine courses: Almost unknown in the modern revival of the lute, but
there is probably more surviving music for nine courses than for ten
(major sources include: Francisque (1600), Besard (1603), Dowland
(1604 and 1610), much of Vallet, many manuscripts including Board and
several of Holmes). Many French songs (airs de cour) fit well, even if
nominally for ten courses. Main disadvantage: the lack of an E/Eb bass
without retuning.

Ten courses: Some lovely music, including a sizeable repertoire in
"transitional" tunings. Plenty of scope for continuo playing, and a
vast number of airs de cour. Don't even think about playing 6-course
music on it.

[Cactus Wren]

Wow, that sounds like fun. I recently took up the piano, and it has been great.

[Paul Magnussen]

JPD wrote:

> there is probably more surviving music for nine courses than for ten
> (major sources include: Francisque (1600),

Do you know of any good recordings of the music of Francisque? All I
have is some admittedly beautiful harp transcriptions by Nancy Allen.

Paul Magnussen

[Fadosolrélamisi]

I wouldn't be able to choose ...

[JPD]

I'm afraid I don't. A quick scan of YouTube suggests he's more
popular on harp than lute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nARkhi-cRvg

[JPD]

Wrong URL. I meant this one, to show all the interest
from harpists:

http://www.youtube.com/results?q=Antoine%20Francisque

[John Nguyen]

On Nov 15, 8:56 pm, Cactus Wren <elegantspanishgui...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I love piano. It was the very first musical instrument I bought in the
US as soon as I was able to save up the money for it.

[Cactus Wren]

I am enjoying it very much. Had it moved from Seattle, and now, several months later, moving it again! Paying for that can make you appreciate the guitar!

[Guitarzan]

On Nov 15, 11:08 pm, Cactus Wren <elegantspanishgui...@gmail.com>

wrote:
> I am enjoying it very much.  Had it moved from Seattle, and now, several months later, moving it again!  Paying for that can make you appreciate the guitar!
>
> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:45:45 PM UTC-7, John Nguyen wrote:
> > On Nov 15, 8:56 pm, Cactus Wren <elegantspanishgui...@gmail.com>
>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:58:03 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
>
> > > > Ok, who makes reasonable "beginner" lutes that I can just order
>
> > > > online? I'm talking about the equivalent of a Yamaha C-40 or similar.
>
> > > > One for Dowland and one for Weiss.
>
> > > Wow, that sounds like fun.  I recently took up the piano, and it has been great.
>
> > I love piano. It was the very first musical instrument I bought in the
>
> > US as soon as I was able to save up the money for it.

Yer not in Arizona any more Migel?

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Tune the 3rd string down to F#. Put capo at 3rd fret. Voila!

A guitar with more strings sounds better than a Baroque lute.
7 courses is plenty for a renaissance lute.

Regards, daveA

--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: d.raleig...@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

[Cactus Wren]

The piano was my mother-in-law's, and now that she is gone, we had it brought here to Arizona. And now we're moving down the street. Unfortunately, that is a big project when a conservatory grand is involved. Hey, Mike, you think we could rustle up a few RMCGers and help out? :)

[JPD]

On Nov 16, 7:55 am, David Raleigh Arnold <d.raleigh.arn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:58:02 -0800, JPD wrote:
> > Ok, who makes reasonable "beginner" lutes that I can just order online?
> > I'm talking about the equivalent of a Yamaha C-40 or similar. One for
> > Dowland and one for Weiss.
>
> Tune the 3rd string down to F#. Put capo at 3rd fret. Voila!
>
> A guitar with more strings sounds better than a Baroque lute.
> 7 courses is plenty for a renaissance lute.
>
> Regards, daveA
>
> --
> Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.

> Site:http://www.openguitar.com(()) eMail: d.raleigh.arn...@gmail.com
> Contact:http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

Capo at 2nd sounds better.

[mata...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 16, 2012 10:55:09 AM UTC-5, daveA wrote:

> Tune the 3rd string down to F#. Put capo at 3rd fret. Voila!

One more option:

http://www.editionsorphee.com/Strings/Strings.html

See the strings for tuning a 650mm guitar in terz tuning. The difference here will be tuning string (3) to A instead of b-flat. Can also be used on a 7-string guitar, but you'll have to grab a string (7) from a regular set's string (5).

MO.

[mata...@gmail.com]

Or better yet, string (6) from a low tension set.

MO.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Capo at 3rd makes for easier reading if score is in
piano notation. Tuning it flat is not ahistorical
if you want. Lutists did it often, no doubt to
make the strings last longer. Regards, daveA

--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:16:42 -0800, mata...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, November 16, 2012 10:55:09 AM UTC-5, daveA wrote:
>
>> Tune the 3rd string down to F#. Put capo at 3rd fret. Voila!
>
> One more option:
>
> http://www.editionsorphee.com/Strings/Strings.html
>
> See the strings for tuning a 650mm guitar in terz tuning. The difference
> here will be tuning string (3) to A instead of b-flat.

I put tuning first (F#) and capo after, which is clearer
to a beginner IMO.

I thought that the Russian 7-string was a descendant of
the French (low to high: d, e, a, d g b e') as played by
Sor, Coste, Carulli, and others. For renaissance,
regular guitar strings, capo, and lots o luck for the 7th.

At what point did a chord tuning become standard on
the Russian 7-string? Regards, daveA

[mata...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 16, 2012 7:23:17 PM UTC-5, daveA wrote:
>
>
> I thought that the Russian 7-string was a descendant of
>
> the French (low to high: d, e, a, d g b e') as played by
>
> Sor, Coste, Carulli, and others.

You thought wrong. The Russian (actually Polish, but that is another story) was already in use in the late 18th century. Coste began his 7th string experiments almost 50 years later. But earlier than that, circa 1820, we have the seven string guitar (standard tuning with 7th = C or B) becoming popular in Mexico. Actuazlly, this was the same guitar used by the Padre Basilio (Aguado's teacher) and Federico Moretti, in Spain in and about 1799). So the number of strings and the tuning are two separate issues.

But anyway, the Russian seven string guitar is entirely besides the point here. The 7 string guitar in standard tuning is the instrument that can best imitate a seven-course lute.


MO.

[Steve Freides]

Good for you - everyone should play the piano.

-S-

[Guitarzan]

On Nov 16, 9:04 am, Cactus Wren <elegantspanishgui...@gmail.com>
wrote:

No they could break their nails, impossible!

[Guitarzan]

I agree!

[dewach...@gmail.com]

It doesn't matter what strings you put on a guitar it still sounds and responds like a guitar and not a lute.

The guitar has a slow sluggish thick response compared to the lute, the lute has a super quick response and a light tone. Yea sure you can play lute music on guitar but it's not quite the same as listening to Nigel North, or Paul Odette on the lute is it.

[mata...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 1:00:18 PM UTC-5, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:

> It doesn't matter what strings you put on a guitar it still sounds and responds like a guitar and not a lute.

That's very true, and I am not sure what it is you are responding to. Did anybody say that playing lute music on the guitar makes the guitar sound like a lute?

The different strings solution is simply an alternative for playing with a capo when you think that the music sounds better in a G tuning and you do not wish to use a capo. Since the actual pitch of Renaissance lutes is a matter of speculation, you do not really know if placing a capo on the third, or second fret, or any fret at all, including using different strings, is at best a rough approximation. For all we know, the actual pitch intended, for example, by Dowland, is that produced by a normal guitar in normal tuning without a capo. The only way to verify that, is to get hold of a 17th century real live singer and see what pitch s/he would prefer to be accompanied by in Dowland songs.

> The guitar has a slow sluggish thick response compared to the lute, the lute has a super quick response and a light tone. Yea sure you can play lute music on guitar but it's not quite the same as listening to Nigel North, or Paul Odette on the lute is it.

So what else is new?

MO.

[JPD]

I found a helpful discussion of how many strings, what pitch, whether
to double the strings, etc., when approaching Dowland on the lute. My
conclusion after reading it: do what sounds and feels good to you.
This would apply to capoing the guitar, too. To me, a capo at the 3rd
just takes away too much of the guitar. At the second you get a little
lift into Luteland -- enough to get the effect without subtracting
too much tone from the instrument.
===========================

http://www.luteshop.co.uk/dowland/Dowland%27s%20Lutes.html

Dowland’s Lutes

It is still widely believed that to play Dowland one needs an eight-
course lute tuned in unisons throughout. It is also commonly believed
that English musicians preferred unison stringing while continental
lutenists used octaves. These beliefs seem remarkably persistent in
spite of the fact that the evidence which contradicts them comes from
Dowland himself and has been available for a long time. It therefore
seems like a good time to set the record straight on these points, but
also to look more closely at the requirements of his music and what
kind of lutes he might have played.

Number of courses
If we look at the modern edition of Dowland’s solo lute music (Poulton
& Lam, 1982) we find 41 pieces for six courses, 43 for seven (37 with
the seventh at D and six at F), three for eight courses and five for
nine. This gives only a rough idea, because these pieces are only the
versions chosen by the editors – different versions of the pieces in
some MSS may require more or fewer courses and it is mostly not known
whether any of the versions are actually those of Dowland himself.

If we look at Dowland’s printed works, we find:

1597 The First Booke of Songes or Ayres: seven courses
1600 The Second Booke of Songs or Ayres: seven courses
1603 The Third and Last Booke of Songs or Aires: seven courses,
also a bass lute with seven courses
1604 Lachrimae or Seaven Teares: nine courses
1610 A Musicall Banquet (Robert Dowland): up to nine courses
1610 Varietie of lute-lessons (Robert Dowland): six to nine courses
1612 A Pilgrimes Solace: eight courses

Another way to approach the question is to look at the history of the
increase in the number of courses in general. The problem with this
is that for most of Dowland’s solo lute pieces we have no secure
chronology anyway. However, from the approximate dates of the MSS in
which they are first found, it seems likely that most of these pieces
were composed before 1600. We need to consider developments on the
continent as well, because Dowland was in France from 1580 to 1583, in
Germany and Italy from about 1594 to 1596 and in Denmark from 1598 to
1606. While seven-course lutes were known as early as the late 15th
century, most 16th century publications of lute music are for a six-
course lute. The earliest published pieces for seven courses are
found in the books of Melchior Newsidler (1574), Barbetta (1582) and
Adriaensen (1584). Terzi’s first book (1593) is for seven courses,
his second book (1599) for eight. Molinaro’s book of 1599 is for
eight courses. Publications for nine-course lute start with
Francisque (1600), Besard (1603), and John Dowland (1604).

Right hand technique
We don’t know exactly when Dowland started to play the lute, but if
the career of Robert Johnson is anything to go by it is likely that he
was apprenticed to a master when he was about seven, which would make
it about 1570. This is about the same time as Adrian le Roy’s
instructions which were published in 1568 and subsequently paraphrased
by Barley in his A new Booke of Tabliture in 1596. Dowland would also
have been familiar with French practice from his visit to Paris as
assistant to the French ambassador in 1580-1583. So for roughly the
first thirty years of his playing career Dowland would have played a
six- or seven-course lute probably using what we now call “thumb-
inside” technique. As late as 1603 (in The Schoole of Musicke) Thomas
Robinson is still recommending thumb-inside, though he is using a
seven-course lute. With the increase in number of courses in the last
two decades of the 16th century more and more players switched to
“thumb-outside”, as recommended by Besard in 1603. Dowland is
mentioned in the Stobaeus MS of about 1619 as being one of the famous
lutenists (along with Huwet, Lorenzino, and Bocquet) who changed from
thumb-inside to thumb-outside during the course of his career.

Type of Lute
There is one contemporary reference to a “Venice” lute in connection
with Dowland: epigram 99 of Henry Peacham's Thalia's Banquet, (1620,
sig. C8v.) is addressed to "Maister Doctor Dowland":

Your word, Hinc illae lachrimae, beneath,
A Venice Lute within a laurell wreath.

Records of imports show that Venetian lutes fetched much higher prices
than others (see Spring, pp.68-69). Besard (1617) and Fuhrmann (1615)
depict ten-course lutes with large multirib bodies in the style of the
German makers working in Northern Italy in the late 16th century.

Octave stringing
Dowland expresses a preference for unison stringing in 1610, and this
has often been taken as a justification for playing his music with
lutes strung in unisons throughout. It has also commonly been assumed
that unison stringing was a feature of English, rather than
Continental practice. In fact, Dowland himself contradicts both of
these modern views:

Secondly, for on your Bases, in that place which you call the sixt
string, or r ut, these Bases must be both of one bignes, yet it hath
been a generall custome (although not so much used any where as here
in England) to set a small and a great string together, but amongst
learned Musitions that custome is left, as irregular to the rules of
Musicke.

To take the second point first, he says that octaves were "not so much
used any where as here in England” – and he had first-hand experience
of what continental lute players were doing. In fact it is the
Neapolitan lutenist Fabritio Dentice who is credited with introducing
the practice of unison stringing. To return to the first point,
Dowland’s remarks in 1610 concern specifically the sixth course on a
nine-course lute and say nothing about the lower courses
(“accessories” as he calls them) which were almost certainly always
tuned in octaves. In any case, Dowland says that an octave sixth
course was common practice in England – of course we cannot be sure of
the timescale, but it seems likely that it persisted until close to
1610. In fact, whether or not it ever became widespread is debatable,
because octaves from the sixth course downwards were common on
“baroque” lutes of all kinds from 10 to 13 courses, where the new
tunings require a thinner sixth course than in the old tuning and
would therefore have had less need of an octave.

Returning to Dowland’s solo lute music, if (as seems likely) nearly
all of it dates from before 1600, then it would all have been composed
for a lute with an octave on (at least) the sixth course. In fact,
internal evidence from some Dowland pieces (the best example probably
being K.Darcy’s Galliard) and others from the 1590s suggests octaves
on the fifth and even the fourth course. It may be that Barley’s
instructions (1596), describing a six-course lute with octaves on
courses four to six, though taken from an earlier treatise by Le Roy,
still reflected common practice in England in the 1590s.
String types
Dowland's comments on strings provide us with a large proportion of
the tantalizingly little information we have about strings. The full
text of these comments can be found here. In Dowland's time all lute
strings were made from gut and there were no metal-wound strings.
Compared to the stringing which has mostly been used on lutes in
modern times (nylon trebles and wound basses), all-gut stringing
probably resulted in a brighter, more sustained treble sound and a
less sustained, darker bass sound.

Tension
Dowland recommends selecting strings according to the size of the
lute:

...proportionably size your strings, appointing for the bigger Lute
the greater strings, and for the lesser Lute the smaller strings

The use of bigger strings for bigger lutes also implies more string
tension, if lutes were sized in strict proportions according to pitch,
which is consistent with the relative sizes of surviving lutes. He
also emphasizes the importance of grading the sizes of strings to
achieve an even feel across the strings:

...these double Bases likewise must neither be stretched too hard, nor
too weake, but that they may according to your feeling in striking
with your Thombe and finger equally counterpoise the Trebles

...Thus as the sounds increase in height, so the strings must decrease
in greatnesse: Likewise by the contrary, for those Accessories, which
are the seaventh, eight and ninth string, &c. keeping the former
counterpoise, as if they were equall things waighed in an even
Ballance.

Double top string
The use of a double first is rare on modern lutes, but Dowland used it
in 1610 and it is common in surviving lutes of the period. Robinson
(1603) and Mace (1676) also used a double first.
Frets

...all the Lutes which I can remember used eight frets, and so ended
at the Semitonium cum Diapente.

But yet as Plautus saith, Nature thirsting after knowledge, is alwayes
desirous to invent and seeke more, by the wittie conceit (which I have
seene, and not altogether to be disalowed) of our most famous
countriman M. Mathias Mason Lutenist, and one of the Groomes of his
Majesties most honourable Privie Chamber, (as it hath ben told me,)
invented three frets more, the which were made of wood, and glued upon
the belly, and from thence about some few yeeres after, by the French
Nation, the neckes of the lutes were lengthned, and thereby increased
two frets more, so as all those Lutes which are most received and
disired, are of tenne frets.

Mathias Mason was appointed as court lutenist in 1580, and promoted to
the Privy Chamber in 1603; in 1609 his name disappears from the
accounts so he probably died in that year. Notice that Dowland says
"three frets more", not four, as might be expected. This is probably
because these frets corresponded to our 9th, 10th and 12th, missing
out the 11th - the use of "m" to mean 12th fret (in the Marsh Lute
Book, p.153) bears out this interpretation. Dowland nevertheless
implies that this is a bit of newfangleness of which he might approve
but in which he does not personally indulge ("...I have seene, and not
altogether to be disalowed"). In fact he uses (the position of) the
11th fret (King of Denmark's Galliard, P40, bar 25) and even the 14th
fret (Mr Langton's Galliard, P33, bar 53) - but presumably played all
notes above the 8th fret (early in his career) and 10th fret (later in
his career) without wooden frets. Body frets were used by some,
however, as evidenced by Robinson (1603) who, explaining the use of
letters to label the frets in tablature, says "...until you come to i
which is the last fret about the neck of the Lute, but you may glue on
more frettes in fit place and space (untill you come to n)"
Dowland is the only written source of information we have about fret
thickness (though some paintings, notably Holbein's The Ambassadors,
clearly show quite thin double frets). He tells us to use a fourth
course string for the first and second frets, a third course string
for the third and fourth frets, a second course string for the fifth
and sixth frets, and first course strings for all the rest. We should
remember that when he talks about string sizes he is not talking about
precise measurements, only groups of sizes (as recently as the early
20th century it was usual to classify violin strings as to whether
they were made of three or four guts, actual diameter could vary
considerably within those categories) - so Dowland's fretting could be
continuously graded rather than stepped. The most important
implication is that Dowland used very thin frets: probably starting at
about .80mm decreasing to less than .45mm. These frets were almost
certainly double. This contrasts with the modern practice of using
very thick single frets.

String length and pitch
I think that Dowland's statement (above) that the French lengthened
the necks of the lutes and thereby gained an extra two (tied) frets is
to be taken at face value (the alternative, of course, is that new
lutes were made with smaller bodies and relatively longer necks, but
it seems much more likely that existing lutes were converted). If we
take as a starting point a lute of about 59cm string length and add
two frets to the neck we would get a string length of about 66cm.
Assuming a treble string tuned close to breaking point in both cases,
we would expect a drop in pitch of about a tone. If, however, we were
simultaneously converting the lute from six courses to nine, the extra
width of the neck required by the extra courses means that the body
will be shortened (in this case probably by about 1.4cm; the exact
figure would depend on the shape of the body, but I am assuming a
Venetian/Paduan style lute), and the string length might then be only
about 63cm. Nevertheless, the drop in pitch would still be at least a
semitone.

A pitch around a tone below modern also fits with Ian Harwood's theory
(Harwood, 1981) that there were two pitches in use in England around
1600 about a fourth or a fifth apart, our pitch of about a'=392 being
the lower of these two pitches.

Other evidence for a possible drop in pitch comes from tuning
instructions. Robinson (1603), in common with most previous authors,
recommends tuning the first course as high as possible (“so high as
you dare venter for breaking”) and tuning the other strings using the
first course as a reference. On the other hand, Dowland (1610) says:

...first set on your Trebles, which must be strayned neither too
stiffe nor too slacke, but of such a reasonable height that they may
deliver a pleasant sound, and also (as Musitions call it) play too and
fro after the strokes thereon.

Another factor in trying to deduce pitch is the use of a double first
string. There is a limit to how thin a string can be made (modern best
guess is about .42mm) and Dowland himself warns us against using
treble strings which are too thin:

...take one of the knots in your hand, but let it not be too small,
for those give no sound, besides they will be either rotten for lacke
of substance, or extreame false.

If we take a modern lute of 59cm string length and assume a maximum
working tension for a single treble string of about 40 Newtons, the
pitch of our hypothetical .42mm string will be approximately g' at
modern pitch. If we take a larger lute, say our hypothetical
converted lute with a ten-fret neck and a string length of 63cm, to
maintain the same tension the pitch would have to go down by about one
and a half semitones. I think it unlikely that a double top string
would be used at a total tension of 80N for the course, so use of a
double first would push the pitch down still further. The issue here
is not the pitch at which a string might break, but the kind of
tension which might be acceptable to a player.

Conclusions
Bearing in mind the duration of Dowland's lute playing career, from c.
1570 to 1626, and the changes in instruments, strings, and playing
techniques which took place during that time, there is no single
"Dowland lute" which we can confidently say is the "correct"
instrument with which to play his music. Most of his solo music was
composed before 1600, and it is divided almost equally between six-
and seven-course lutes. At this time use of an octave string on the
sixth course (and possibly higher) was common. Since we have almost
no Dowland autograph scores, authoritative texts are lacking for most
of his solo lute music, and we cannot know how (if at all) he played
his great lute solos in the first two decades of the 17th century,
though we do know that by that time he was playing a nine-course lute,
with a double first string, and ten tied frets on the neck. There is
every reason to believe that by 1610, the actual pitch of a lute "in
G" was somewhat lower than modern pitch, probably about a tone below.

Bibliography
Harwood, Ian, A case of double standards? Instrumental pitch in
England c1600. Early Music, 9(4), 470-481. (1981)
Spring, Matthew, The Lute in Britain: a history of the instrument and
its music (Oxford, 2001).

[dewach...@gmail.com]

There is nothing new under the sun, my friend. I just wanted to point out to those whom you tried to sell your set of low tension strings to that miraculously turn the guitar into lute isn't a good idea except perhaps for you.

[Paul Magnussen]

JPD wrote:

> Dowland’s Lutes

<snip>

Thank you for a very well-written and informative post.

Paul Magnussen

[JPD]

I trust it's clear to interested readers that I am not the author of
"Dowland's Lutes." Usually I would post only the link to an article --
but this time, to facilitate the discussion here, I included the
entire text.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Baroque maybe, if 7 strings are enough.

Renaissance lute has a more brilliant, less sweet sound in
the treble, and IMO the capo helps make the guitar
sound more compatible. I have a very light taped-top
renaissance lute made with historical accuracy a
prime consideration. Authenticity is not in dispute.
The things were often flat, and I remember when
guitars often were very flat. I remember a Dave
Matthews, a black kid somewhat younger than I,
who kept his guitar tuned low to save strings.
He played the Ponce Preludes pretty well, at least
I thought so at the time.

Thanks for the other history, O Destroyer of Myths. :-)

Regards, DaveA

[JPD]

Hey, I found a 2008 7-course Mel Wong lute on Craigslist. My first lute. I love it.

Funny thing, though, I can't seem to find a decent "lute stand" online. Any lute owners here with a recommendation for a stand?

[JonLorPro]

On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:37:05 AM UTC-4, JPD wrote:
> Hey, I found a 2008 7-course Mel Wong lute on Craigslist. My first lute. I love it.
>
>
>
> Funny thing, though, I can't seem to find a decent "lute stand" online. Any lute owners here with a recommendation for a stand?

Until you find one that just happens to accommodate your lute nicely the way you want, you can use a generic A-frame guitar stand with the lute put into it with the back facing out instead of the soundboard facing out. Just lean the strings gently onto the top contact point and it will be ok. Go to a store that has a few different models to try for the best fit.

[Horcle]

Hi,
I have two of Lutester's (aka, Robert Crim) old lutes that I would part with for a very, very reasonable price. Contact me if you are interested. Haven't touched them in many years and they really need someone to play them.

Greg--

[Horcle]

JPD,
I tried replying to you and got a bounce:

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

google...@guitarist.com

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain guitarist.com by mailwash38.pair.com. [66.39.2.38].

The error that the other server returned was:
554 5.7.1 <google...@guitarist.com>: Recipient address rejected: Access denied

Let me know how to contact you off list.

Greg--

[Steve Freides]

+1. Just Google

A-frame musical instrument stand

and you'll find plenty to choose from.

-S-

[dsi1]

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 3:56:20 PM UTC-10, Cactus Wren wrote:

> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:58:03 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
>
> > Ok, who makes reasonable "beginner" lutes that I can just order
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> >
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> > online? I'm talking about the equivalent of a Yamaha C-40 or similar.
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> >
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> > One for Dowland and one for Weiss.
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>

> Wow, that sounds like fun. I recently took up the piano, and it has been great.

Don't you wish you started with piano? I sure do. That's one fricken' linear axe.