Libra Sonatine and Aquarelle
John Wasak
Sergio Assad's 'Aquarelle' (besides the fact they each have 3 movements and
are both about the same length)?
I'm thinking they're both sort of impressionistic with Acquarelle sounding
more Debussy-like and Libra Sonatine more Ravel-ish?
And the Sonatine's Fuoco...more excitement than a thousand Koyunbaba
Presto's.
Yes? No? Discuss. (word amount - unlimited!)
JW
John W. Blossick
>From: "John Wasak" mr...@earthlink.net
>Date: 7/29/02 3:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>Anyone ever notice a similarity between Roland Dyens' 'Libra Sonatine' and
>Sergio Assad's 'Aquarelle' (besides the fact they each have 3 movements and
>are both about the same length)?
>
I have not heard or seen the score for Sergio Assad's "Aquatelle.
>I'm thinking they're both sort of impressionistic with Acquarelle sounding
>more Debussy-like and Libra Sonatine more Ravel-ish?
I haven't a clue as to which Sonatine leans toward who's ish side.
>And the Sonatine's Fuoco...more excitement than a thousand Koyunbaba
>Presto's.
Dyen's Libra Sonatine is one kick ass piece of music.
Fuco, India, and the Largo movement..More excitement that ten thousand
Koyunbooboos.
I suspect the Libra Sonatine will keep me frustrated well into the next
decade..
JohnB
GuitarPoet
Sergio threads through the first movement is harmonized with the whole
tone scale? The piece is more Brazillian/Classical/Jazz in the style
of Gismonti/Pascoal as well as older composers like Gnatalli. It
doesn't even approach Debussy's mystery or deep profundity. I don't
know the Sonatine too well but I have Ricardo Cobo's CD and Badi Assad
playing the last movement so I'll give them a closer listen and post
again. Dyens is definitely a Jazz wannabe with his arrangement of
'Round Midnight (in E minor no less, tune down the half step already)
so you know it's all the marriage of impressionistic harmony with
exciting rhythms. Not that I'm a fan of Koyunbaba, but is it fair to
compare an overplayed piece which is essentially a long
improvisational drone on a C# minor tuning to something with Western
harmonic development? I mean Ravi Shankar spinning out some great raga
yaman is more exciting, spiritually fulfilling and entrancing than
anything Roland or Sergio have yet composed!
GuitarPoet
Let's see: Debussy wrote "Reflets Dan L'eau" and Ravel "Jeaux D'eau"
Maybe there's more of a connection in those piano masterpieces to
Dyens Sonatine (Ravel wrote a Sonatine too) and Assad's
AQUArelle.........
Matanya Ophee
I really would like to know who you are. You make a lot of sense. Some
comments:
> Aquarelle Debussy-like? Is that because the three note motif that
>Sergio threads through the first movement is harmonized with the whole
>tone scale?
Don't know the piece. But I think there is an element here which must
not be ignored: there is a fine line between using the compositional
heritage of a given composer to ripping him off. The most Debussy-like
piece I know, is the Reverie by Richard Pick, which is included in his
First Lessons, Book II. I had to learn it when I studied with him. It
is so Debussy, one might even assign it to Debussy-Field (how are'ya
my little chickadee...). It's a fine pastiche and it seems to me a lot
more satisfying than a transcription of Clair de Lune for solo guitar.
If Aquarelle qualifies as a good pastiche, I'll buy it.
> The piece is more Brazillian/Classical/Jazz in the style
>of Gismonti/Pascoal as well as older composers like Gnatalli. It
>doesn't even approach Debussy's mystery or deep profundity. I don't
>know the Sonatine too well but I have Ricardo Cobo's CD and Badi Assad
>playing the last movement so I'll give them a closer listen and post
>again. Dyens is definitely a Jazz wannabe with his arrangement of
>'Round Midnight (in E minor no less, tune down the half step already)
>so you know it's all the marriage of impressionistic harmony with
>exciting rhythms.
Dyens is actually a wannabe of anything he sets his mind to, not only
jazz. I once heard him, in my living room, do a perfect Chet Atkins,
right off the cuff. There is a reason he is such a great arranger: he
is a perfect imitator, and that in itself is his one of his major
strengths. At the same time, he can take music by Sor, by Weiss or by
anyone else who might be looked down upon by Yea New Musick snobs, and
turn it into a major masterpiece. I like anything Ricardo Cobo is
doing, but I feel that this particular recording of the Libra Sonatina
is not the best I have heard. My vote goes to Heike Mathiessen, who,
IMO, can do Dyens a lot better than Dyens himself.
> Not that I'm a fan of Koyunbaba, but is it fair to
>compare an overplayed piece which is essentially a long
>improvisational drone on a C# minor tuning to something with Western
>harmonic development? I mean Ravi Shankar spinning out some great raga
>yaman is more exciting, spiritually fulfilling and entrancing than
>anything Roland or Sergio have yet composed!
Amen to that!
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
John Wasak
> >From: "John Wasak" mr...@earthlink.net
> wrote:
> >And the Sonatine's Fuoco...more excitement than a thousand Koyunbaba
> >Presto's.
>
> Dyen's Libra Sonatine is one kick ass piece of music.
> Fuco, India, and the Largo movement..More excitement that ten thousand
> Koyunbooboos.
> I suspect the Libra Sonatine will keep me frustrated well into the next
> decade..
>
> JohnB
>
Yeah, good guitar music! That's for sure!
JW
John Wasak
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_wj19.5889
and
> > Sergio Assad's 'Aquarelle' (besides the fact they each have 3 movements
and
> > are both about the same length)?
> >
> > I'm thinking they're both sort of impressionistic with Acquarelle
sounding
> > more Debussy-like and Libra Sonatine more Ravel-ish?
> >
> > And the Sonatine's Fuoco...more excitement than a thousand Koyunbaba
> > Presto's.
> >
> > Yes? No? Discuss. (word amount - unlimited!)
> >
> > JW
>
>
> Aquarelle Debussy-like? Is that because the three note motif that
> Sergio threads through the first movement is harmonized with the whole
> tone scale?
Yes, that has something to do with it. That whole tone scale certainly
defines the first movement 'Divertimento' and appears also in the 'Preludio
e toccatina'. The one piece of Debussy that I can immediately think of that
makes a great use of this whole tone scale thing is "Voiles" from the first
book of Preludes. Matter of fact, this is what mostly got me started
thinking in this direction.
> The piece is more Brazillian/Classical/Jazz in the style
> of Gismonti/Pascoal as well as older composers like Gnatalli.
Right, I think those styles and composers you name here are what comes first
to mind when hearing Aquarelle, but bear in mind my question was a little
hedgey in that I said it was "sort of impressionistic" and Debussy "like".
I think it's possible to hear impressionistic aspects here. In some ways I
might even think of Pour le piano in it's structure, and Aquarelle's second
movement, 'Valseana' with it's singing aria-like feel could fit into the
'Sarabande' of Plp. Keeping with this line of thought the 'Preludio e
toccatina' could resemble Pour le piano's 'Toccatta'.
> It
> doesn't even approach Debussy's mystery or deep profundity.
No, I don't believe it does either. It was just something that occured to me
as I was listening and wondered if anyone else heard it that way. And while
it can't really be said to go head-to-head with Debussy, I still think
Aquarelle is a really fine piece of contemporary guitar music.
>I don't
> know the Sonatine too well but I have Ricardo Cobo's CD and Badi Assad
> playing the last movement so I'll give them a closer listen and post
> again. Dyens is definitely a Jazz wannabe with his arrangement of
> 'Round Midnight (in E minor no less, tune down the half step already)
> so you know it's all the marriage of impressionistic harmony with
> exciting rhythms.
The Libra Sonatine is a great piece of modern guitar music as well. Dyens
does reach for a jazz sensibility and it's there in the Sonatine at times,
especially since the Libra Sonatine was also originally composed for guitar,
double bass and percussion, but again I hear an impressionism also, but
maybe more related to something like Bill Evans would've done with a
standard and Evans always added touches of Ravel and Debussy. In Dyens
Sonatine I hear something along Ravelian lines, maybe something like Ravel's
own "Sonatine". Certainly, both third movements, Dyen's 'Fuoco' and Ravel's
'Anime' move along!
I've also read that the three movements of Libra Sonatine are meant to tell
the story of a heart operation Dyens had.
>Not that I'm a fan of Koyunbaba, but is it fair to
> compare an overplayed piece which is essentially a long
> improvisational drone on a C# minor tuning to something with Western
> harmonic development? I mean Ravi Shankar spinning out some great raga
> yaman is more exciting, spiritually fulfilling and entrancing than
> anything Roland or Sergio have yet composed!
>
That's a good point you make here, though, despite the often heard mention
of "apples and oranges" comparisons things can always be compared, if only
for pointing out their dissimilarities. You yourself made a comparison when
you suggest that Shankar is more exciting than Dyens or Assad. So, yes, I
think Koyunbaba can be compared, at least on an "excitement" level. Now, is
such comparison fair - sure! ;-)
>
> Let's see: Debussy wrote "Reflets Dan L'eau" and Ravel "Jeaux D'eau"
>
Well, "Jeaux d'eau", I think, is more Liszt-like and "Reflets", from Images,
is quite a bit more shimmery than Aquarelle. ;-)
> Maybe there's more of a connection in those piano masterpieces to
> Dyens Sonatine (Ravel wrote a Sonatine too) and Assad's
> AQUArelle.........
>
Yes, the connection, if it does exist beyond my own thinking, would be found
primarily in the piano works.
Anyway, nice chatting with you, GuitarPoet, and thanks for your response and
thoughts.
JW
John Wasak
> guita...@hotmail.com (GuitarPoet) wrote:
>
> I really would like to know who you are. You make a lot of sense.
Yeah, the GuitarPoet does make a lot of sense, but then after all, he's a
Guitar Poet! ;-) Knows what he's talking about too!
> Some
> comments:
>
> > Aquarelle Debussy-like? Is that because the three note motif that
> >Sergio threads through the first movement is harmonized with the whole
> >tone scale?
>
> Don't know the piece. But I think there is an element here which must
> not be ignored: there is a fine line between using the compositional
> heritage of a given composer to ripping him off. The most Debussy-like
> piece I know, is the Reverie by Richard Pick, which is included in his
> First Lessons, Book II. I had to learn it when I studied with him. It
> is so Debussy, one might even assign it to Debussy-Field (how are'ya
> my little chickadee...). It's a fine pastiche and it seems to me a lot
> more satisfying than a transcription of Clair de Lune for solo guitar.
> If Aquarelle qualifies as a good pastiche, I'll buy it.
Well, Matanya, I'm inclined to hear a little Debussy in Aquarelle but it is
blended in with other elements as well, so I guess right now my ear just
extracted the Debussy part I hear and highlighted it. There's no guarantee
anyone's going to agree with me on this - just thought I'd raise the point
to see.
>
> > The piece is more Brazillian/Classical/Jazz in the style
> >of Gismonti/Pascoal as well as older composers like Gnatalli. It
> >doesn't even approach Debussy's mystery or deep profundity. I don't
> >know the Sonatine too well but I have Ricardo Cobo's CD and Badi Assad
> >playing the last movement so I'll give them a closer listen and post
> >again. Dyens is definitely a Jazz wannabe with his arrangement of
> >'Round Midnight (in E minor no less, tune down the half step already)
> >so you know it's all the marriage of impressionistic harmony with
> >exciting rhythms.
>
> Dyens is actually a wannabe of anything he sets his mind to, not only
> jazz. I once heard him, in my living room, do a perfect Chet Atkins,
> right off the cuff. There is a reason he is such a great arranger: he
> is a perfect imitator, and that in itself is his one of his major
> strengths. At the same time, he can take music by Sor, by Weiss or by
> anyone else who might be looked down upon by Yea New Musick snobs, and
> turn it into a major masterpiece. I like anything Ricardo Cobo is
> doing, but I feel that this particular recording of the Libra Sonatina
> is not the best I have heard. My vote goes to Heike Mathiessen, who,
> IMO, can do Dyens a lot better than Dyens himself.
>
I have a recording of the Libra Sonatine by Augustin Wiedemann and I think
he does a great job. I believe he is/was? a teaching assistant of Eliot
Fisk's at the the Salzburg Mozarteum.
JW
Larry Deack
"Matanya Ophee"
> I really would like to know who you are.
Shhhhhh. Just let GP post. I agree, nice stuff.
Matanya Ophee
>> Don't know the piece. But I think there is an element here which must
>> not be ignored: there is a fine line between using the compositional
>> heritage of a given composer to ripping him off. The most Debussy-like
>> piece I know, is the Reverie by Richard Pick, which is included in his
>> First Lessons, Book II. I had to learn it when I studied with him. It
>> is so Debussy, one might even assign it to Debussy-Field (how are'ya
>> my little chickadee...). It's a fine pastiche and it seems to me a lot
>> more satisfying than a transcription of Clair de Lune for solo guitar.
>> If Aquarelle qualifies as a good pastiche, I'll buy it.
>
>Well, Matanya, I'm inclined to hear a little Debussy in Aquarelle but it is
>blended in with other elements as well, so I guess right now my ear just
>extracted the Debussy part I hear and highlighted it. There's no guarantee
>anyone's going to agree with me on this - just thought I'd raise the point
>to see.
I'll take your word for it. As I said, I don't know the piece. I
suppose by the time the GFA competition will be over, we will know it
all too well...:-)
>I have a recording of the Libra Sonatine by Augustin Wiedemann and I think
>he does a great job.
If I am not mistaken, he was a competitor in the Vienna Forum
competition last year in which I sat in the jury. I'll have to look up
my notes, or else I must have met him in the Brno festival. The reason
the name rings a bell is because I recall asking him if he was a
descendant of Frank Wiedemann, one of the leaders of the International
Gitarristische Vereingung in the 1930-50s. He wasn't.
Actually, I must have heard the Fuoco movement from at least 36,000
competitors in various competitions. The worst was in the 1996 Tychy
competition with Roland Dyens as a member of the jury. That must have
been the absolute wrong choice of a free program item for many of the
wash-outs.
Scott Daughtrey
Matanya Ophee wrote:
> I really would like to know who you are. You make a lot of sense.
Oh my lord, we agree on something. "Da da-da daaaaa" <fanfare>
Scott
Klaus Heim
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:xHA19.759$cI.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> I have a recording of the Libra Sonatine by Augustin Wiedemann and I think
> he does a great job. I believe he is/was? a teaching assistant of Eliot
> Fisk's at the the Salzburg Mozarteum.
With most recordings I have of this piece it seems to me that the guitarists
really are waiting for the finale of the third movement - and then stumble.
My impression is that the sudden change in technique breaks the rhythm. The
finale then appears as something added on as an afterthought and not as the
culmination of the piece. I miss the natural rhythmic flow.
I must say, that I do not much like the Libra Sonatine. While playing it I
sometimes get carried away by the feel-good aspect of the guitaristic
fingering - but then I catch myself, arpeggioing along, looking out the
window hoping for something exciting to happen. Are you sure you like it?
For me it fits nicely in the same category as Koyunbaba.
I can say one nice thing about Libra Sonatine though - it is a much better
piece than Aquarelle.
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
>With most recordings I have of this piece it seems to me that the guitarists
>really are waiting for the finale of the third movement - and then stumble.
>My impression is that the sudden change in technique breaks the rhythm. The
>finale then appears as something added on as an afterthought and not as the
>culmination of the piece. I miss the natural rhythmic flow.
It is not often I agree with Klaus on something. But this is one. The
main problem, I think, is that the Fuoco is such a technically
demanding piece, that many people stumble because it is simply beyond
their available chops. Even those who have plenty chops to go around,
emphasize the Fuoco and really do not give the previous two movements
any serious musical attention. You may be right that the Fuoco may
have been added on as an after thought. This is perhaps the reason
most people simply ignore the rest of the piece.
Scott Daughtrey
John Wasak wrote:
> Yes, that has something to do with it. That whole tone scale certainly
> defines the first movement 'Divertimento' and appears also in the 'Preludio
> e toccatina'.
For a minute I thought you were crazy, then I remembered the whole-tone scale in
measure 4 ot PeT, the last two beats. It is quite a different use here, in the
sense that it's really acting less a WT scale than a V chord (augmented) setting
uo the following G maj7#11 chord.
On a personal note, I find Fuoco a little melodically flacid compared to
Aquarelle (Fuoco seems to have stronger strengths in it's rhymic than melodic
content) but I can see many similiarities as pieces. I would't want to comment
on the others as Fuoco is the only piece of Libre Sonatine I've heard.
Have you ever heard anyone do convincing Ravel on guitar? (Has Barrueco done any
Ravel?)
Scott
John Wasak
> I must say, that I do not much like the Libra Sonatine. While playing it I
> sometimes get carried away by the feel-good aspect of the guitaristic
> fingering - but then I catch myself, arpeggioing along, looking out the
> window hoping for something exciting to happen.
>Are you sure you like it?
Well, let me check...hold on a second.......
("Self!...do you like Libra Sonatine?....What?...Whatt'ya mean why am I
shouting?...I have to shout, don't ?...after all, you're all the way on the
other side of the room and the air-conditioner's rumbling away on account of
it being so hot out and all!....What?...Whatt'ya mean?...Huh?....Listen, I
don't wanna know about all that stuff right now...all's I'm askin' is do you
like Libra Sonatine...is it so hard for you to just give me an
answer?...What?...I do!...well thank youuuoo very much!...sheesh, some
people! )
Okay...uhm, yeah, I do like it.
> For me it fits nicely in the same category as Koyunbaba.
>
The Fuoco can be seen as having Koyunbaba-ish aspects to it, that's why I
linked the two pieces in my original post. Your "waiting for something
exciting to happen" echoes my own comments about the Big K. Here's the
important difference for me: I like Libra Sonatine.
> I can say one nice thing about Libra Sonatine though - it is a much better
> piece than Aquarelle.
>
Well, this is the stuff that makes the world go round and helps keep things
interesting in our own little revolving corner here, otherwise, RMCG would
become a sorry sea of "I agree's"!
My opinion is the reverse of yours. I think Aquarelle is a better piece of
music than Libra Sonatine.
I'll guess you don't like Maximo Pujol either. Hmmm...this could make a new
thread - "Most Favorite Modern Guitar Piece" (look for it coming soon to
your computer monitor!)
JW
John Wasak
> "Klaus Heim" <klh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >With most recordings I have of this piece it seems to me that the
guitarists
> >really are waiting for the finale of the third movement - and then
stumble.
> >My impression is that the sudden change in technique breaks the rhythm.
The
> >finale then appears as something added on as an afterthought and not as
the
> >culmination of the piece. I miss the natural rhythmic flow.
>
> It is not often I agree with Klaus on something. But this is one. The
> main problem, I think, is that the Fuoco is such a technically
> demanding piece, that many people stumble because it is simply beyond
> their available chops. Even those who have plenty chops to go around,
> emphasize the Fuoco and really do not give the previous two movements
> any serious musical attention. You may be right that the Fuoco may
> have been added on as an after thought. This is perhaps the reason
> most people simply ignore the rest of the piece.
>
Well, these are interesting thoughts, though as I've said, from what I've
read the whole piece itself is supposed to be musically representative.
From the notes by Augustin Wiedemann:
"The three movements, India, Largo and Fuoco tell the story of a heart
operation that Roland Dyens was obliged to undertake. India, with its
constant change of metre and various styles depicts the restless beats of a
sick heart. The Largo depicts the narcotic state during the operation, and
in the last piece, Fuoco, the power of the 'new' heart breaks out like an
explosion."
So if we take this to be the case perhaps the Fuoco is intentionally
intended to be somewhat different and stand out.
Wiedemann's playing of this piece is the only complete recording of it I
have so I can't really comment on how most guitarists who've recorded it
fully play it, though again from Wiedemann, a quote from Dyens himself
regarding the playing:
"Roland Dyens about Augustin Wiedemann愀 interpretation of the 'Libra
Sonatine'...'What a nice feeling to hear someone who understands this music
so clearly...his way of playing, different of most of the classical
guitarists, is that of an open-minded musician close to this very end of a
musical century full of richness...I do believe in Augustin Wiedemann
because he is simply a complete and moving artist and, according to me, this
significates much more than being only an excellent player. Bonne chance !'
"
Well, who knows? For me, Wiedemann's playing of the piece is well done, and
since it's the one I have to listen to, that's a good thing!
JW
John Wasak
> John Wasak wrote:
>
> > Yes, that has something to do with it. That whole tone scale certainly
> > defines the first movement 'Divertimento' and appears also in the
'Preludio
> > e toccatina'.
>
> For a minute I thought you were crazy, then I remembered the whole-tone
scale in
> measure 4 ot PeT, the last two beats. It is quite a different use here, in
the
> sense that it's really acting less a WT scale than a V chord (augmented)
setting
> uo the following G maj7#11 chord.
>
> On a personal note, I find Fuoco a little melodically flacid compared to
> Aquarelle (Fuoco seems to have stronger strengths in it's rhymic than
melodic
> content)
Yes, I agree, the Fuoco is more about the rhythm than Aquarelle.
>but I can see many similiarities as pieces.
Me too.
> I would't want to comment
> on the others as Fuoco is the only piece of Libre Sonatine I've heard.
>
> Have you ever heard anyone do convincing Ravel on guitar? (Has Barrueco
done any
> Ravel?)
>
> Scott
>
Well, I don't care that much for Ravel on guitar but there's Anders Miolin's
Ravel recording done on a ten-string guitar. He does things like "Alborado
del gracioso" from Miroirs and "Le Gibet" from Gaspard de la nuit.
JW
PGS
Mark this day in Barnyard history!
No time to post, just reading, but this I couldn't pass up....
S.
Matanya Ophee wrote:
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
p...@attbi.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Life is a gamble, a chance, a mere guess.
Cast a line and reel in a splendid rainbow trout
or a slippery eel."
~Mourning Dove
Cogewea (1927)
John W. Blossick
>From: "John Wasak" mr...@earthlink.net
>Date: 7/30/02 3:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>
>From the notes by Augustin Wiedemann:
>
>"The three movements, India, Largo and Fuoco tell the story of a heart
>operation that Roland Dyens was obliged to undertake. India, with its
>constant change of metre and various styles depicts the restless beats of a
>sick heart. The Largo depicts the narcotic state during the operation, and
>in the last piece, Fuoco, the power of the 'new' heart breaks out like an
>explosion."
>
>So if we take this to be the case perhaps the Fuoco is intentionally
>intended to be somewhat different and stand out.
>
I agree. The Fuco stands out in contrast to the other movements.
With Dyen's cardiac operation as a backdrop for writing the Sonatine, the three
movements and their marked contrast to each other begin to make sense.
I think each movement contains their own difficulties in terms of technical
execution, and interpretation.
The Largo movement, I think is particularly difficult because of the slow
tempo..Played badly, I think it can lose an audience (and player) rather
quickly.
>Well, who knows? For me, Wiedemann's playing of the piece is well done, and
>since it's the one I have to listen to, that's a good thing!
>
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/221/tomo_iwakura.html
Give this guy a listen..Let me know what you think.
JohnB
Larry Deack
> The Largo depicts the narcotic state during the operation
-snip-
> Played badly, I think it can lose an audience (and player) rather
> quickly.
We sure don't want to lose any body during the operation now do we?
John W. Blossick
>Date: 7/30/02 7:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>We sure don't want to lose any body during the operation now do we?
No, we sure don't.
Not to mention the cases where the operation was a success, yet the paitent
still died.
JohnB
Larry Deack
"John W. Blossick"
> Not to mention the cases where the operation was a success, yet the
paitent
> still died.
Hmmm... wouldn't that be just about every operation?
Matanya Ophee
>Not to mention the cases where the operation was a success, yet the paitent
>still died.
This patient did not die, and I know for a fact that he did have this
operation. But I think it would be misleading to think in terms of
this morbid programmatic reference when thinking about an
interpretation for this piece, or for any other piece for that matter.
The literary background supplied by a composer is often colored by
other emotional drives which may or may not be a direct translation of
his given scenario. The perfect example of the problem is Stepan Rak's
story behind his Hiroshima. He told it to me in person in Esztergom, I
wrote about it in the first biography of Rak to appear in an English
language magazine (Classical Guitar, February 1988). The story has to
do with a purported fact that the day they dropped the bomb on
Hiroshima, another bomb was dropped by the Allies on the Ukrainian
village where he was born, on the very same day he was born. The bomb
killed his parents and it was a Soviet tank crew that picked up the
day old baby and brought him to Prague where he was raised by the Rak
family. Now that is an emotional baggage that is a lot more powerful,
I think, than a mere by-pass operation, and the power of that
composition by Rak is something few guitarists can handle. It is
technically ten fold more demanding that Fuoco, and contains some very
emotional music.
There is only one little problem, and it was revealed by Colin Cooper,
the Editor of Classical Guitar magazine. The day the bomb was dropped
on Hiroshima, the war in Europe was over by three months, and no one
was dropping bombs anywhere in the Ukraine.
Does it matter? of course not. But I think that to think in terms of a
programmatic content imagined by the composer, as if it was a fact, is
to not give the music a chance to speak for itself.
John W. Blossick
>Message-id:
wrote:
>"John W. Blossick"
I hope not.
.
Even in metaphoric use of the words, which was my intention..Operation=guitar
performance, paitent=audience, died=audience bored stiff.
JohnB
John W. Blossick
>Date: 7/30/02 8:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>The literary background supplied by a composer is often colored by
>other emotional drives which may or may not be a direct translation of
>his given scenario
That is understandable.
>The perfect example of the problem is Stepan Rak's
>story behind his Hiroshima. He told it to me in person in Esztergom, I
>wrote about it in the first biography of Rak to appear in an English
>language magazine (Classical Guitar, February 1988). The story has to
>do with a purported fact that the day they dropped the bomb on
>Hiroshima, another bomb was dropped by the Allies on the Ukrainian
>village where he was born, on the very same day he was born. The bomb
>killed his parents and it was a Soviet tank crew that picked up the
>day old baby and brought him to Prague where he was raised by the Rak
>family. Now that is an emotional baggage that is a lot more powerful,
>I think, than a mere by-pass operation, and the power of that
>composition by Rak is something few guitarists can handle. It is
>technically ten fold more demanding that Fuoco, and contains some very
>emotional music.
>There is only one little problem, and it was revealed by Colin Cooper,
>the Editor of Classical Guitar magazine. The day the bomb was dropped
>on Hiroshima, the war in Europe was over by three months, and no one
>was dropping bombs anywhere in the Ukraine.
I'm sure Rak's composition is as you say. His story is a very powerful one
indeed.
>Does it matter? of course not. But I think that to think in terms of a
>programmatic content imagined by the composer, as if it was a fact, is
>to not give the music a chance to speak for itself.
Yes, there is always that possibility..
Stories behind music, for me anyway, give me a point of reference, at times, in
terms of how I might interpret a piece for performance.
In the case of Libra Sonatine, the story of its composition after Dyen's major
surgery hits home for me on a personal level.
First, my Grandfather died of a heart attack at 52. Alive one day, dead the
next.
Second, I watched my Father go through heart attacks (which he would shake
off), ..the agony of waiting by the phone to find out whether I would fly home
to his funeral, or his recovery...And finally, a feeling of great joy and
relief pushing him out of the hospital in a wheelchair, and being witness to
his recuperation from the whole ordeal.
In light of my past experiences, the Sonatine makes perfect sense to me. Each
movement is crystal clear regarding meaning.
Whether the surgery provided all, part, or none of the impetus for Dyens
writing the music is irrelevant to me at this point. I have my own set of jaded
binoculars to view the music through. There is still plenty of room to let the
music speak for itself, I just reserve the right to use _my_" voice" to do the
speaking.
JohnB
Klaus Heim
>
> > For me it fits nicely in the same category as Koyunbaba.
> >
>
> The Fuoco can be seen as having Koyunbaba-ish aspects to it, that's why I
> linked the two pieces in my original post. Your "waiting for something
> exciting to happen" echoes my own comments about the Big K. Here's the
> important difference for me: I like Libra Sonatine.
I was hoping you would explain the differences between these two pieces, why
you like one and not the other. But sometimes it is difficult, one just
likes a piece, whether it has merits or not.
> > I can say one nice thing about Libra Sonatine though - it is a much
better
> > piece than Aquarelle.
> >
>
> Well, this is the stuff that makes the world go round and helps keep
things
> interesting in our own little revolving corner here, otherwise, RMCG would
> become a sorry sea of "I agree's"!
>
> My opinion is the reverse of yours. I think Aquarelle is a better piece
of
> music than Libra Sonatine.
>
> I'll guess you don't like Maximo Pujol either.
His Preludes are not that bad, but the rest...
> Hmmm...this could make a new
> thread - "Most Favorite Modern Guitar Piece" (look for it coming soon to
> your computer monitor!)
I have problems calling all these guitarist-composer pieces "contemporary"
or "modern". For me these words have special connotations: up-to-date, in
touch with musical currents of the day, individual, new - stuff like that.
These guitarist-composer pieces are often so far detached from what
non-guitarist composers are writing for the guitar, or composers in general
are writing today. For me they simply don't "feel" contemporary. I think I
probably could, simply by reading through a score, find out if the music has
been written by a guitarist-composer. Of course, there are exceptions.
(Maybe for this reason Jaume Torrent was not included in the "Llibre per a
Guitarra"?)
Klaus
Larry Deack
"Klaus Heim"
> But sometimes it is difficult, one just
> likes a piece, whether it has merits or not.
...and 'merit' is also in the eye of the beholder unless you care to define
it for us since you imply this piece has no merit.
Personally I think most of the ideas are light but merit is not a word that
makes any sense to me since merit is not objective in art and some people
obviously find enough merit in this music to study and perform it for
others.
Alain Reiher
JW à écrit:
The Libra Sonatine is a great piece of modern guitar music as well. Dyens does reach for a jazz sensibility and it's there in the Sonatine at times, especially since the Libra Sonatine was also originally composed for guitar, double bass and percussion, but again I hear an impressionism also, but maybe more related to something like Bill Evans would've done with a standard and Evans always added touches of Ravel and Debussy. In Dyens Sonatine I hear something along Ravelian lines, maybe something like Ravel's own "Sonatine". Certainly, both third movements, Dyen's 'Fuoco' and Ravel's 'Anime' move along!
Carcassi/Sor/Jobim /Villa Lobos/Brouwer/Metheny (just a little) in the first Mvt.
Lauro/Miles Davis/Diego-Pujol in the second
Barrios (la cathedrale) /Casseus/Brouwer/Dominiconi in the 3rd.
but no so much of Maurice or Bill.
There is also a good video clip version of the 3rd Mvt. by Thang Hang at the www.worldguitarist.com site.
at the bottom of the page in the recent addition section , right column third link. {vietnamese classical guitar club)
on the menu find the audio Music files.
There is also an audio of "la cathedrale" by Barrios himself.
Alain
Larry Deack
John Wasak
>
> http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/221/tomo_iwakura.html
>
> Give this guy a listen..Let me know what you think.
>
Well, he can play the Libra Sonatine, that's for sure!
Okay, what do I think?... well, here's a little compare and contrast:
I'd say Iwakara is a more delicate player overall, though, and this is odd
considering Iwakara's approach, I think Wiedemann brings out the lyricism
when it appears in these movements better. Wiedemann's is also a more
focused and direct interpretation. It seems to me Wiedemann has much more
clarity in his sound, I don't know if this is because of the recording
itself, but my feeling is that this is just the way Wiedemann plays. To me,
Iwakara seems like he's a bit unfocused and just getting through at times in
many places throughout the entire piece. Too often in Iwakara's playing the
music seems to get mushed together making for some pretty bland moments. In
the parts that call for a strong rhythmic sense I'd unquestionably give
Wiedemann the edge and when percussive effects are called for Wiedemann is
far stronger there as well.
To highlight just the Fuoco - It seems to me that in things like the
Fuoco's bent notes Iwakara's are a bit flabby sounding, Wiedemann gives more
of a sharp staccato feel to the bend. In the somewhat lyrical part where
you have a descending melody line appear, Wiedemann makes it sing out
better, and in the rhythmic, percussive finale to end the piece Iwakaru is
positively anemic compared to Wiedemanns strong finish here.
My feeling was that Iwakara's best moments are in the Largo. That
movement's musical requirements suited his style better. It's also
interesting that in the Largo, Iwakara clocks in at 5:32 with Wiedemann at
6:48. In the other two movements Wiedemann gets through a bit more quickly
than Iwakara but the differences aren't that pronounced.
Anyway, that's what I think, JohnB. Do you have an opinion about Iwakara's
playing in the Libra Sonatine?
JW
Klaus Heim
>
> It seems to me Wiedemann has much more
> clarity in his sound, I don't know if this is because of the recording
> itself, but my feeling is that this is just the way Wiedemann plays.
Check out his other CD "4 Miles 2 Davis - Guitar Music of the 90's" (for the
others, the one with Libra Sonatine is called "All in Twilight - Guitar
Music of the 80's").
http://www.augustin-wiedemann.de/
Klaus
Greg M. Silverman
>John W. Blossick wrote:
>
>>http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/221/tomo_iwakura.html
>>
>>Give this guy a listen..Let me know what you think.
>>
>
>Well, he can play the Libra Sonatine, that's for sure!
>
He also plays Koyunbaba quite well! ;-)
Greg--
John Wasak
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:jxE19.1116$cI.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > > For me it fits nicely in the same category as Koyunbaba.
> > >
> >
> > The Fuoco can be seen as having Koyunbaba-ish aspects to it, that's why
I
> > linked the two pieces in my original post. Your "waiting for something
> > exciting to happen" echoes my own comments about the Big K. Here's the
> > important difference for me: I like Libra Sonatine.
>
> I was hoping you would explain the differences between these two pieces,
why
> you like one and not the other. But sometimes it is difficult, one just
> likes a piece, whether it has merits or not.
>
Yeah, it is difficult, but what it really boils down to, I guess, is that I
just think that Libra Sonatine is a better pice of music than Koyunbaba.
> > > I can say one nice thing about Libra Sonatine though - it is a much
> better
> > > piece than Aquarelle.
> > >
> >
> > Well, this is the stuff that makes the world go round and helps keep
> things
> > interesting in our own little revolving corner here, otherwise, RMCG
would
> > become a sorry sea of "I agree's"!
> >
> > My opinion is the reverse of yours. I think Aquarelle is a better piece
> of
> > music than Libra Sonatine.
> >
> > I'll guess you don't like Maximo Pujol either.
>
> His Preludes are not that bad, but the rest...
>
The Preludes are wonderful!
> > Hmmm...this could make a new
> > thread - "Most Favorite Modern Guitar Piece" (look for it coming soon
to
> > your computer monitor!)
>
> I have problems calling all these guitarist-composer pieces "contemporary"
> or "modern". For me these words have special connotations: up-to-date, in
> touch with musical currents of the day, individual, new - stuff like that.
> These guitarist-composer pieces are often so far detached from what
> non-guitarist composers are writing for the guitar, or composers in
general
> are writing today. For me they simply don't "feel" contemporary. I think I
> probably could, simply by reading through a score, find out if the music
has
> been written by a guitarist-composer. Of course, there are exceptions.
> (Maybe for this reason Jaume Torrent was not included in the "Llibre per a
> Guitarra"?)
>
> Klaus
>
Well, I don't know, ya' see, definitions are always difficult things to tack
on to such slippery surfaces like music. How about Arvo Part? Would you
say he's in touch with the musical currents of the day, or is he not just a
miner bringing up buckets of deep tradition. And yet, is there not
something 'contemporary' in feel to his music? Does he not create out of
this tradition an assemblage of contemporary sound?
I think Maximo Pujol mines the traditions of his folk music and assembles it
into a contemporary sound.
JW
John Wasak
> "Klaus Heim"
> > But sometimes it is difficult, one just
> > likes a piece, whether it has merits or not.
>
> ...and 'merit' is also in the eye of the beholder unless you care to
define
> it for us since you imply this piece has no merit.
>
Yes, good point, Larry. Now who'll be the brave person to step forward and
define merit?
> Personally I think most of the ideas are light
Larry, I'm unclear as to which ideas you're saying are light here - those of
Koyunbaba, or Libra Sonatine, or both?
JW
John Wasak
JW ą écrit:
>The Libra Sonatine is a great piece of modern guitar music as well. Dyens
does reach for a jazz sensibility and it's there in the Sonatine at times,
especially since the Libra Sonatine was also originally composed for guitar,
double bass and percussion, but again I hear an impressionism also, but
maybe more related to something like Bill Evans would've done with a
standard and Evans always added touches of Ravel and Debussy. In Dyens
Sonatine I hear something along Ravelian lines, maybe something like Ravel's
own "Sonatine". Certainly, both third movements, Dyen's 'Fuoco' and Ravel's
'Anime' move along!
>>>>>
I also hear influences from
Carcassi/Sor/Jobim /Villa Lobos/Brouwer/Metheny (just a little) in the
first Mvt.
Lauro/Miles Davis/Diego-Pujol in the second
Barrios (la cathedrale) /Casseus/Brouwer/Dominiconi in the 3rd.
but no so much of Maurice or Bill.
Yeah, lots of influences in Libra Sonatine and maybe it's a bit of a stetch
to suggest Ravel (and by extension Bill) but I do hear some Debussy in
Aquarelle and when I heard some links between Aquarelle and Libra Sonatine I
extended the impressionistic idea from Aquarelle to Libra Sonatine. If that
makes any sense!
Also, Ginistera in the Fuoco of Libra Sonatine.
JW
John Wasak
I didn't think he played Libra Sonatine quite well at all, I mean, he gets
through it but it needs work to come together. Hopefully he does play the
Big K quite well....we don't need any more bad versions!! Needless to say,
I won't be listening to that one...others can give a critique! ;-)
JW
Greg M. Silverman
>Greg M. Silverman wrote:
>
>>John Wasak wrote:
>>
>>>John W. Blossick wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/221/tomo_iwakura.html
>>>>
>>>>Give this guy a listen..Let me know what you think.
>>>>
>>>Well, he can play the Libra Sonatine, that's for sure!
>>>
>>He also plays Koyunbaba quite well! ;-)
>>
>>Greg--
>>
>
>I didn't think he played Libra Sonatine quite well at all, I mean, he gets
>through it but it needs work to come together.
>
My assesment of this is from having never heard any other versions of
this (being a greenhorn in this piece). I thought the first two
movements were kind of lifeless,
whereas the Fuoco movement definitely had more drive to it. Now, if you
can show me a better version of this, I will see where you are coming from!
>Hopefully he does play the Big K quite well....we don't need any more bad versions!! Needless to say,
>I won't be listening to that one...others can give a critique! ;-)
>
This piece definitely had more going for it the the Libra Sonatine.
Back to Dyens: another piece I have never heard performed is his "Eloge
de Leo Brouwer." I have tried upon various attempts to read through the
score, but it seems to be tripping me up in a few spots (okay, a lot of
spots!). Anyone know of posted MP3s of this anywhere?
Cheers!
Greg--
>
>
>
>JW
>
>
>
Larry Deack
"John Wasak"
> Larry, I'm unclear as to which ideas you're saying are light here - those
of
> Koyunbaba, or Libra Sonatine, or both?
Both. Compare them to Delpriora's Sonata III (one day I will post a JPG of
that nasty section). I have worked through Koyunbaba but never performed it
but I don't play Libra Sonatine and have only heard recordings so I really
shouldn't say anything until I really study it in detail.
Of course I'm an 'art whore' and will play anything in public, even
Gilardino :-)
John W. Blossick
>Date: 7/31/02 11:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>Anyway, that's what I think, JohnB. Do you have an opinion about Iwakara's
>playing in the Libra Sonatine?
I would like to listen to Wiedman's full recording of the sonatine..I listend
to a small clip on the web.
From the small portion I heard of Wiedman, he does seem to give a stronger
performance. Not as delicate as Tomo's...Overall, I agree with you on your
review.
I think its quite a feat just to be able to play the piece cleanly, and up to
tempo..Perhaps I'm too easily impressed..:)
JohnB
Matanya Ophee
>I have problems calling all these guitarist-composer pieces "contemporary"
>or "modern". For me these words have special connotations: up-to-date, in
>touch with musical currents of the day, individual, new - stuff like that.
>These guitarist-composer pieces are often so far detached from what
>non-guitarist composers are writing for the guitar, or composers in general
>are writing today. For me they simply don't "feel" contemporary. I think I
>probably could, simply by reading through a score, find out if the music has
>been written by a guitarist-composer. Of course, there are exceptions.
>(Maybe for this reason Jaume Torrent was not included in the "Llibre per a
>Guitarra"?)
The question is if this exclusion of Torrent is actually alluded to in
some fashion in this collection. Do they have a policy statement
regarding their criteria for choosing?
Personally, I rather suspect that he is not included because he is
married to the owner of the Boileau publishers in Barcelona.
Local jealousies are alive and well wherever guitar music is present.
As for Jaume Torrent's music: you are probably right that it is not
exactly written in a "contemporary" style. But they are not bad pieces
and the fact of the matter is that one of the leading German
publishers, Schott's Soehne of Mainz, also published his music. Now if
you really want to hear Catalan music that will guarantee to turn your
stomach, try the music of Francesc de Paula Soler.
Larry Deack
"John W. Blossick" <
> Perhaps I'm too easily impressed..:)
I think so, when can I audition for that gig :-)
John Wasak
> >From: "John Wasak" mr...@earthlink.net
> wrote:
> >Anyway, that's what I think, JohnB. Do you have an opinion about
Iwakara's
> >playing in the Libra Sonatine?
>
> I would like to listen to Wiedman's full recording of the sonatine..I
listend
> to a small clip on the web.
> From the small portion I heard of Wiedman, he does seem to give a stronger
> performance. Not as delicate as Tomo's...Overall, I agree with you on your
> review.
>
> I think its quite a feat just to be able to play the piece cleanly, and up
to
> tempo..Perhaps I'm too easily impressed..:)
>
> JohnB
>
Well, sure, I'm not saying that the guy hasn't put some time into the
guitar, lots of time actually, and that's to be admired, but it's just that
when you begin to make comparisons, some seem less shiny. That's all.
JW
John Wasak
> "John Wasak"
> > Larry, I'm unclear as to which ideas you're saying are light here -
those
> of
> > Koyunbaba, or Libra Sonatine, or both?
>
> Both.
Okay. Now I'm clear!
>Compare them to Delpriora's Sonata III (one day I will post a JPG of
> that nasty section).
Well, there's no argument - some music_ is_ lighter stuff than others. I've
not heard Delpriora's Sonata. But sometimes light's okay, no?....like
compared to JS Bach a lot, hey, maybe most, music is lightweight, but we
need some of that stuff too. Don't we?
>
> Of course I'm an 'art whore' and will play anything in public, even
> Gilardino :-)
>
Shame on you, Larry! ;-)
JW
Larry Deack
"John Wasak"
> But sometimes light's okay, no?....
I'm doing lots of 'light' these days with this gig. I learning a lot too
:-)
I'll play anything. I just like playing these days and hope I can keep
doing it for a long time.
Greg M. Silverman
>
> I just like playing these days and hope I can keep
> doing it for a long time.
Amen to that!
Greg--
John W. Blossick
>Message-id:
wrote:
Larry wrote:
>>
>> Of course I'm an 'art whore' and will play anything in public, even
>> Gilardino :-)
>>
>
>Shame on you, Larry! ;-)
I like 'art hoe' better, has more class..:)
JohnB
John W. Blossick
>Message-id:
wrote:
JohnB wrote:
..Perhaps I'm too easily impressed..
JW wrote:
>Well, sure, I'm not saying that the guy hasn't put some time into the
>guitar, lots of time actually, and that's to be admired, but it's just that
>when you begin to make comparisons, some seem less shiny. That's all.
>
I think that's a good way to put it..
I can certainly tell when a piece I'm familiar with has been butchered. MP3
land is filled with such renderings.
I watched the video of the girl playing the Fuco from the Vietnam Guitar
Society..Her version is played at a bit slower tempo than than Tomo or
Weidman..She seems to impart a haunting, feminine quality to the piece..yet it
still seems to work Ok.
I think if I listen to Weidmans version in totality, it will come out as my
favorite though..He certainly seems to shine the most. His playing seems very
powerful.
JohnB
John W. Blossick
>Date: 7/31/02 1:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>"John W. Blossick" <
>> Perhaps I'm too easily impressed..:)
>I think so, when can I audition for that gig :-)
I have virtually vowed that I will never return as a restaurant owner or
manager..Not that I mind working 60-80 hr work weeks....I now enjoy my nights
and weekends, which is dang hard to give up..
If I ever owned or managed a place again, rest assured, no audition is
necessary..Just bring your geetar and pull up a chair.
JohnB
Klaus Heim
>
> Yeah, it is difficult, but what it really boils down to, I guess, is that
I
> just think that Libra Sonatine is a better pice of music than Koyunbaba.
You know what I have been noticing these past few days? When I arrived in
this newsgroup (many years ago), I was a big fan of Koyunbaba (remember my
"Turkish Fancy"?) and in general played more composers of the Domeniconi,
Dyens, etc type. I can't say how much this newsgroup has aided me in moving
on, but I definitely have. I put it down to having been brought into contact
with many serious musicians.
> > His Preludes are not that bad, but the rest...
> >
>
> The Preludes are wonderful!
Also something for the rock fan.
> Well, I don't know, ya' see, definitions are always difficult things to
tack
> on to such slippery surfaces like music. How about Arvo Part? Would you
> say he's in touch with the musical currents of the day, or is he not just
a
> miner bringing up buckets of deep tradition. And yet, is there not
> something 'contemporary' in feel to his music? Does he not create out of
> this tradition an assemblage of contemporary sound?
We have often touched on the subject of tradition, lately with reference to
Eliot. I say Eliot is a very traditional poet, while his Waste Land is
audaciously new. Lachenmann writes music, which is very individual and also
very new, but when reading about him, I often find the connotation
'traditional'. Reviewers of his "Salut für Caudwell" do comment on his
citations of traditional guitar music. Pärt, while not going to such
extremes as Lachenmann, does have a distinctly individual sound - just
listen to "Cantus" or "Fratres" - but as many Baltic composers, is deeply
rooted in a spiritual tradition. (For some time I have been meaning to write
a review of the great guitar music coming from the Baltic, especially
Estonia.)
> I think Maximo Pujol mines the traditions of his folk music and assembles
it
> into a contemporary sound.
What is a contemporary sound? When I listen to Pujol, I hear something
nicely fitting between Tarrega, Barrios, Piazzolla and Ponce. On the other
hand, for me a contemporary sound is one based on Mahler, Schoenberg,
Webern, Berg, Stravinsky, Schostakovitch, Bartok, Boulez, Cage, Feldman,
Henze, and so forth. You know how some of these mine the traditions of folk
music, but coming up with something, which is decidedly apart from folk
music itself. Are these not the models, from which a composer can learn? Are
these not the composers a composer writing today will have studied, along
with Bach, Beethoven, Schubert and so forth?
So for me Pujol is not a contemporary sound, it is one which is decidedly,
probably as method and probably deliberately, antiquated and retrospective.
For such composers the state of being traditional is not a deep rooting in
tradition, but rather an easy excuse for uninspired, unindividual music.
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
>What is a contemporary sound?
Not to be flippant about it, but it seems to me that "contemporary" is
not a useful adjective in this discussion. It could be argued that it
is a strict temporal association and thus, music by anyone living
today is contemporary. "New Music" is also not a very useful
description. The music of Mahler, Schoenberg, Webern, Berg,
Stravinsky, Shostakovitch, Bartok is certainly not new by any stretch
of the imagination. There has to be some other term which will not be
influenced by this or that political correctness bias, but I am not
sure what it is.
> When I listen to Pujol, I hear something
>nicely fitting between Tarrega, Barrios, Piazzolla and Ponce. On the other
>hand, for me a contemporary sound is one based on Mahler, Schoenberg,
>Webern, Berg, Stravinsky, Schostakovitch, Bartok, Boulez, Cage, Feldman,
>Henze, and so forth.
No argument there. We all hear different things. Some people will take
exception to bundling Piazzolla with Barrios, and Tarrega with Ponce,
and equally questionable is bundling Stravinsky with Webern or
Schoenberg. But hey, de gustibus non es disputandum.
> You know how some of these mine the traditions of folk
>music, but coming up with something, which is decidedly apart from folk
>music itself.
I have a problem with the "decidedly apart" qualification. There is no
question that Stravinsky's Les Noces (Svadebka) is not a true
depiction of an authentic Russian wedding ritual. It is not folk music
arranged by Igor. But there is no question that he spent 13 years
working on this and studying in depth all the available sources on the
Russian folk wedding ritual. The end result is a unique composition by
an early 20th century composer, but it cannot be said to be "decidedly
apart" for the folk music which inspired it.
>Are these not the models, from which a composer can learn? Are
>these not the composers a composer writing today will have studied, along
>with Bach, Beethoven, Schubert and so forth?
One would hope so, but different composers have different influences,
different educational backgrounds. Some even never go to school, never
study anything and just write what's in their heart.
>So for me Pujol is not a contemporary sound, it is one which is decidedly,
>probably as method and probably deliberately, antiquated and retrospective.
Again, this is a value judgment to which you are entitled. Other
people, myself included, have different appreciations of Pujol.
>For such composers the state of being traditional is not a deep rooting in
>tradition, but rather an easy excuse for uninspired, unindividual music.
That, once again, places you in a position of deciding something about
the composer's unique state of mind, based on nothing more than your
own aesthetic preferences. What you are really saying here is that
this composer wanted to write, planned on writing, and exclusively
selected for writing uninspired, unindividual music, and that a deep
rooting in tradition was merely an excuse. I am terribly sorry, but
there is no way for you to know what precise processes the composer
had gone through in writing his music. You can only take the result,
and evaluate it by using your own bias and prejudice.
My bias and prejudice is different. For me, Pujol's Tangata de Agosto
for guitar and string quartet is one of the greatest pieces of
contemporary chamber music with guitar I have had the good fortune to
hear, and I deeply regret that I was not given the chance to publish
it. His Suites de Plata, which I did publish, are much too easy to
dismiss as Poor Man Piazzolla, but when I hear an artist on the level
of Victor Villadangos (On Naxos) playing it, I am moved to tears by
the beauty of the melodic line and congratulate myself for being the
vehicle by which this music was brought into the open.
John Wasak
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:m0W19.3090$cI.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
Ah! And this is what keeps us discombobulated!....it's this sticky wicket
of definition.
> When I listen to Pujol, I hear something
> nicely fitting between Tarrega, Barrios, Piazzolla and Ponce. On the other
> hand, for me a contemporary sound is one based on Mahler, Schoenberg,
> Webern, Berg, Stravinsky, Schostakovitch, Bartok, Boulez, Cage, Feldman,
> Henze, and so forth. You know how some of these mine the traditions of
folk
> music, but coming up with something, which is decidedly apart from folk
> music itself. Are these not the models, from which a composer can learn?
Are
> these not the composers a composer writing today will have studied, along
> with Bach, Beethoven, Schubert and so forth?
>
> So for me Pujol is not a contemporary sound, it is one which is decidedly,
> probably as method and probably deliberately, antiquated and
retrospective.
> For such composers the state of being traditional is not a deep rooting in
> tradition, but rather an easy excuse for uninspired, unindividual music.
>
Based on these examples, your definition of a contemporary sound has you
sitting on a particular extended branch of the musical tree, in this case
the Second Viennese School, Primitivism, Serialism, and another "ism" or
two. In your list here, and from what you've written in this NG over time,
I'd say that your definition of 'contemporary' music places us in the sound
category that I often call "Spikey". Now there's nothing wrong with that
and that's just the spice you prefer in your musical stew but I don't
believe it has to be seen as the Master Plan for a new musical world order,
not the only blueprint for "contemporary".
The list above, itself, presents problems: For instance, which Stravinsky?
The Stravinsky of The Rite of Spring or the Stravinsky of the Symphony of
Psalms? Or which Schoenberg? The Schoenberg of Verklarte Nacht or the
Schoenberg of the Violin Concerto? And what happens to this 'either or
choice" if we factor in the Chamber Symphony No.2? This latter work
displays the warm, rich harmonies of Late Romanticism yet nods in the
direction of modern rhythm even though it was written by Schoenberg in1939.
What if we consider a branch of contemporary that extends in this manner:
Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde", Debussy, Copland, Barber, Ned Rorem, Tobias
Picker? Certainly less "Spikey", yes?
In the guitar world our effort to squeeze through a narrow definition for
"contemporary" has us, again, gathered in front of the sticky wicket.
There's easy example in Leo Brouwer. Is Brouwer to be lauded as a
contemporary composer since he wrote 'Canticum'? A piece nicely situated in
the "Spikey" category. Or is he to be consigned to the junk heap of the
antiquated and uninspired for penning 'Cancion de cuna'? How about
Takemitsu? Is 'All In Twilight" contemporary? (I hope so)
And Maximo Pujol deliberately antiquated and retrospective? What if we go
back to the example of Schoenberg and look at what he wrote in his 1948
essay "One Always Returns":
"A longing to return to the older style [of music] was always vigorous in
me; and from time to time I had to yield to that urge,".
And he did just that in two of his compositions from 1933 - the Concerto for
Cello which was based on a harpsichord concerto by Georg Matthias Monn,
written in 1746; and the Concerto for String Quartet and Orchestra after
Handel's Concerto Grosso Op. 6 No. 7. These are elaborations of
18th-century source materials but still bearing the marks of Schoenberg's
craftsmanship.
Since you opened with reference to Eliot and the idea of tradition, it would
be, especially considering Schoenberg's statement here, fitting to close
with this:
"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."
--T.S. Eliot - "Little Gidding"
Maybe Maximo Pujol is less the uninspired retro, as you would suggest, and
more someone, who, having explored the past, now sees it with new eyes. A
vision, I think, we could label "contemporary".
JW
John Wasak
> "Klaus Heim" <klh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > When I listen to Pujol, I hear something
> >nicely fitting between Tarrega, Barrios, Piazzolla and Ponce. On the
other
> >hand, for me a contemporary sound is one based on Mahler, Schoenberg,
> >Webern, Berg, Stravinsky, Schostakovitch, Bartok, Boulez, Cage, Feldman,
> >Henze, and so forth.
>
> No argument there. We all hear different things. Some people will take
> exception to bundling Piazzolla with Barrios,
I most definitely would.
> and Tarrega with Ponce,
I would again.
> and equally questionable is bundling Stravinsky with Webern or
> Schoenberg.
True.
> But hey, de gustibus non es disputandum.
>
True again, but you know, it's funny this saying, since so many disputes
arise from matters of taste.
> My bias and prejudice is different. For me, Pujol's Tangata de Agosto
> for guitar and string quartet is one of the greatest pieces of
> contemporary chamber music with guitar I have had the good fortune to
> hear, and I deeply regret that I was not given the chance to publish
> it. His Suites de Plata, which I did publish, are much too easy to
> dismiss as Poor Man Piazzolla, but when I hear an artist on the level
> of Victor Villadangos (On Naxos) playing it, I am moved to tears by
> the beauty of the melodic line and congratulate myself for being the
> vehicle by which this music was brought into the open.
>
Yep. And I congratulate you as well for having done so, Matanya. The
combination of Villadangos and Pujol is a sublime one! To listen to it is
to feel the basses of our being throb in witching chords, and the blood
pulse pizzicati of Hosanna!
;-0
JW
John Wasak
> >Well, sure, I'm not saying that the guy hasn't put some time into the
> >guitar, lots of time actually, and that's to be admired, but it's just
that
> >when you begin to make comparisons, some seem less shiny. That's all.
> >
>
> I think that's a good way to put it..
>
> I can certainly tell when a piece I'm familiar with has been butchered.
MP3
> land is filled with such renderings.
>
> I watched the video of the girl playing the Fuco from the Vietnam Guitar
> Society..Her version is played at a bit slower tempo than than Tomo or
> Weidman..She seems to impart a haunting, feminine quality to the
piece..yet it
> still seems to work Ok.
I didn't look at it. I probably need to download some video stuff since I
usually have a problem trying to view this kond of thing.
> I think if I listen to Weidmans version in totality, it will come out as
my
> favorite though..He certainly seems to shine the most. His playing seems
very
> powerful.
>
> JohnB
>
Well, I like his playing on really all the pieces he plays on that "All In
Twilight" CD with the exception of "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" - it's not
actually his playing of it I mind it's that this is included on the CD at
all. It doesn't even come close to meshing with the other works on the
recording and as music itself it's a thin excuse. And why it was put on a
recording called "Guitar Music of the 80's " I have no idea. It was
written by Joe Zawinal and is a soul/gospel -ly kind of thing that was a hit
for Cannonball Adderly in the 1960s. Surely, those 4 minutes and six seconds
could have been devoted to something better. But other than that, it's worth
hearing. I think I like Wiedemann's playing on Takemitsu's All In Twilight
better than the recording I have of Bream doing the same piece, though I've
never done a side-by-side comparison of the two.
JW
Matanya Ophee
>The list above, itself, presents problems: For instance, which Stravinsky?
>The Stravinsky of The Rite of Spring or the Stravinsky of the Symphony of
>Psalms? Or which Schoenberg? The Schoenberg of Verklarte Nacht or the
>Schoenberg of the Violin Concerto?
Or the Schoenberg of the ca. 1900 arrangement of Luigi Denza's
Funiculi Funicula for the same instrumental ensemble of the Serenade
op. 24 of 1921. A nice part for the guitar if you can read the bass
clef...:-)
Klaus Heim
>
> Based on these examples, your definition of a contemporary sound has you
> sitting on a particular extended branch of the musical tree, in this case
> the Second Viennese School, Primitivism, Serialism, and another "ism" or
> two. In your list here, and from what you've written in this NG over
time,
> I'd say that your definition of 'contemporary' music places us in the
sound
> category that I often call "Spikey". Now there's nothing wrong with that
> and that's just the spice you prefer in your musical stew but I don't
> believe it has to be seen as the Master Plan for a new musical world
order,
> not the only blueprint for "contemporary".
I don't like Mozart, nor am I interested in him. I have no recording of his
music, no score. Now, for me to base my music theories on this my personal
dislike and deduce that Mozart is irrelevant would be, yes you said it,
nonsense. There would be no need to discuss these issues with me, if I were
doing the same here.
If a composer were to write a copy/pastiche/imitation of Mozart's "Requiem",
I guess some people would call him a 'traditional' composer. I would say
that he is more lost in tradition, than at home in it - and I would strongly
question the validity of this work, since it negates the concept of Art as
an expression of the individual self.
Ever heard Schnittke's "Moz-Art à la Haydn"?
> The list above, itself, presents problems: For instance, which Stravinsky?
> The Stravinsky of The Rite of Spring or the Stravinsky of the Symphony of
> Psalms? Or which Schoenberg? The Schoenberg of Verklarte Nacht or the
> Schoenberg of the Violin Concerto? And what happens to this 'either or
> choice" if we factor in the Chamber Symphony No.2? This latter work
> displays the warm, rich harmonies of Late Romanticism yet nods in the
> direction of modern rhythm even though it was written by Schoenberg
in1939.
>
> What if we consider a branch of contemporary that extends in this manner:
> Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde", Debussy, Copland, Barber, Ned Rorem, Tobias
> Picker? Certainly less "Spikey", yes?
Debussy brings me to a good example from the guitar literature: de Falla's
"Homenaje". With strong folkloristic and flamenco influences, this piece is
nonetheless a child of its time. And in spite of using quotes from Debussy
it is also distinctly de Falla (I have read that Ravel and Debussy had some
legal dispute over who had the original idea to "La Soiree dans Grenade").
Would I be going too far in saying that the "Homenaje" differs greatly from
the pieces of Segovia's Spanish composers?
Or the third movement from Denisov's Sonata, called "Souvenir d'Espagne".
Hey cool, flamenco we think and off we go with our rasgueado chords. But
wait, something isn't quite right here. It is not really flamenco at all, it
is a sort of flamenco, a flamenco filtered through Denisov.
And I think this is it. The ability of the composer to filter the traditions
through his own individual talent. When writing a flamenco- or
Spanish-infleunced piece not to write a copy of the thousands of other
pieces of this sort, but to review this tradition and to renew it.
> In the guitar world our effort to squeeze through a narrow definition for
> "contemporary" has us, again, gathered in front of the sticky wicket.
> There's easy example in Leo Brouwer. Is Brouwer to be lauded as a
> contemporary composer since he wrote 'Canticum'? A piece nicely situated
in
> the "Spikey" category. Or is he to be consigned to the junk heap of the
> antiquated and uninspired for penning 'Cancion de cuna'?
I don't think it is right to want to view the output of a composer's life as
one monolithic block. Do you think the world will remember Brouwer for this
last piece? That this (and a few others like it) are symptomatic of his
style and are a mark of his artistic individuality?
> How about Takemitsu? Is 'All In Twilight" contemporary? (I hope so)
Well, if to you contemporary has to be spikey, maybe not. Is Pärt's "Cantus
in memoriam Benjamin Britten" spikey? No. But try finding a similar piece.
> And Maximo Pujol deliberately antiquated and retrospective? What if we go
> back to the example of Schoenberg and look at what he wrote in his 1948
> essay "One Always Returns":
>
> "A longing to return to the older style [of music] was always vigorous in
> me; and from time to time I had to yield to that urge,".
>
> And he did just that in two of his compositions from 1933 - the Concerto
for
> Cello which was based on a harpsichord concerto by Georg Matthias Monn,
> written in 1746; and the Concerto for String Quartet and Orchestra after
> Handel's Concerto Grosso Op. 6 No. 7. These are elaborations of
> 18th-century source materials but still bearing the marks of Schoenberg's
> craftsmanship.
This is good tradition ;-) It has always been done. What is important
though, is being able to place the marks of one's individual craftmanship.
Otherwise, I could listen to the original.
> Since you opened with reference to Eliot and the idea of tradition, it
would
> be, especially considering Schoenberg's statement here, fitting to close
> with this:
>
> "We shall not cease from exploration
> And the end of all our exploring
> Will be to arrive where we started
> And know the place for the first time."
>
> --T.S. Eliot - "Little Gidding"
>
>
> Maybe Maximo Pujol is less the uninspired retro, as you would suggest, and
> more someone, who, having explored the past, now sees it with new eyes. A
> vision, I think, we could label "contemporary".
If so, then it is a well-guarded secret. Maybe we should tell somebody.
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
>I don't like Mozart, nor am I interested in him.
I will let this statement stand here, all in its own glaring
indictment of Klaus Heim's pretensions to the understanding of music,
with no further comment. Like the man said: 'nuff said.
>Or the third movement from Denisov's Sonata, called "Souvenir d'Espagne".
>Hey cool, flamenco we think and off we go with our rasgueado chords. But
>wait, something isn't quite right here. It is not really flamenco at all, it
>is a sort of flamenco, a flamenco filtered through Denisov.
Of course it is not flamenco, and I discussed this very issue with
Edison himself when he was a guest in our house back in 1989. The only
difference between this movement and the kind of flamenco written, and
performed, by Paco Shevchenko, is that Shevchenko knows what real
flamenco is, and that is name is not usually associated with that of a
leading composer of his time. Denisov's Souvenir is a hoeky
pseudo-ersatz-phoney Russian misunderstanding of what flamenco is all
about. At least, Mikhail Glinka had the good sense of writing this
kind of pastiches at a time no one knew anything about flamenco and
when even the term itself was not yet coined. Edison understood that
very well and that is why he agreed then to accept from me a
commission for another sonata. Alas, that has never happened.
>And I think this is it. The ability of the composer to filter the traditions
>through his own individual talent. When writing a flamenco- or
>Spanish-infleunced piece not to write a copy of the thousands of other
>pieces of this sort, but to review this tradition and to renew it.
Agreed. But if so, why do you think that Pujol has not given _his_
tradition, the one he grew up with, exactly this kind of renewal?
>> Maybe Maximo Pujol is less the uninspired retro, as you would suggest, and
>> more someone, who, having explored the past, now sees it with new eyes. A
>> vision, I think, we could label "contemporary".
>
>If so, then it is a well-guarded secret. Maybe we should tell somebody.
Not to worry. The secret has been out for years now. If _you_ have not
noticed it, perhaps you have not been moving in the right circles?
John Wasak
> I don't like Mozart, nor am I interested in him. I have no recording of
his
> music, no score.
Well, you'll probably be happy to hear that the Mostly Mozart Festival
Orchestra of Lincoln Center has just gone on strike and there will be no
Mozart heard from them this month. ;-)
>
> If a composer were to write a copy/pastiche/imitation of Mozart's
"Requiem",
> I guess some people would call him a 'traditional' composer. I would say
> that he is more lost in tradition, than at home in it - and I would
strongly
> question the validity of this work, since it negates the concept of Art as
> an expression of the individual self.
>
> Ever heard Schnittke's "Moz-Art à la Haydn"?
>
No I haven't.
> And I think this is it. The ability of the composer to filter the
traditions
> through his own individual talent. When writing a flamenco- or
> Spanish-infleunced piece not to write a copy of the thousands of other
> pieces of this sort, but to review this tradition and to renew it.
>
Sure, but what you describe here, I think Maximo Pujol does. He renews the
tradition.
> > In the guitar world our effort to squeeze through a narrow definition
for
> > "contemporary" has us, again, gathered in front of the sticky wicket.
> > There's easy example in Leo Brouwer. Is Brouwer to be lauded as a
> > contemporary composer since he wrote 'Canticum'? A piece nicely situated
> in
> > the "Spikey" category. Or is he to be consigned to the junk heap of the
> > antiquated and uninspired for penning 'Cancion de cuna'?
>
> I don't think it is right to want to view the output of a composer's life
as
> one monolithic block. Do you think the world will remember Brouwer for
this
> last piece? That this (and a few others like it) are symptomatic of his
> style and are a mark of his artistic individuality?
>
Well, I'm not sure how, and even if, Brouwer will be remembered, but if he's
remembered for 'Cancion de cuna' I wouldn't be surprised, after all, there's
probably more people who remember Mozart for "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star"
than for the Requiem. ;-)
> > How about Takemitsu? Is 'All In Twilight" contemporary? (I hope so)
>
> Well, if to you contemporary has to be spikey, maybe not.
No, contemporary doesn't have to be 'spikey', and I've nothing against
spikey, btw.
> Is Pärt's "Cantus
> in memoriam Benjamin Britten" spikey? No. But try finding a similar piece.
>
Well, you know Part is an interesting case since he began as a Serial
stylist with his1st and 2nd Symphonies and even a collage-ist with his
'Collage on B-A-C-H', but it wasn't until he really went backwards in time
to study the choral part music of Machaut, Ockeghem, Josquin, etc.;
medievelism, and plainchant that he discovered his style. So some of the
'Cantus' comes out of that medieval musical milieu, but of course it needs
to be in a more modern style since it's in memory of a modern composer -
Britten. It's also worth noting that a good deal of Part's works are very
traditionally minded settings for religious texts and SATB choir.
> This is good tradition ;-) It has always been done. What is important
> though, is being able to place the marks of one's individual craftmanship.
> Otherwise, I could listen to the original.
>
True and again I think Maximo Pujol's music is stamped with an individual
craftsmanship.
> If so, then it is a well-guarded secret. Maybe we should tell somebody.
>
Well, I think people should get to hear the music of Maximo Diego Pujol.
JW
Matanya Ophee
Klaus Heim wrote:
>>Do you think the world will remember Brouwer for
>>this last piece [ 'Cancion de cuna']? That this (and a few others like it) are symptomatic of his
>> style and are a mark of his artistic individuality?
JW answered:
>
>Well, I'm not sure how, and even if, Brouwer will be remembered,
Truer words have not been spoken. I have had occasion last night to
browse through my collection of the old The Etude Magazine, published
by the Theodore Presser Company, particularly the issues I have from
the mid 1920s. They had then a column called Celebrated Contemporary
Composers. They also had a column titled New Music, and a musical
supplement containing New Music by these Celebrated Contemporary
Composers. Mostly for piano solo, piano four hands, and some for
violin and piano. I have never heard the names of most of these
composers and the few I looked up in Baker's were not even listed.
Moreover, judging by the number of newspaper advertisements, concert
reviews and the like, the most celebrated guitarist in the early 19th
century was Leonhard Schulz. Never heard of him?
In his time Graupner was much more famous than his contemporary J.S.
Bach.
The chance that history will play the same silly games on the
remembrances of Leo Brouwer is much reduced we hope. Printed music is
distributed much more efficiently, and so do sound recordings. Even
so, editions of music which were published as recently as 50 years
ago, often disappear, and sound recordings disappear very quickly,
particularly with the change of technology. Do we know if anybody will
be able to play back CDs a 150 years from now?
Nevertheless, history teaches us that any predictions on the fortunes
of contemporary composers beyond their own life time, is not a good
betting game.
PGS
S.
Matanya Ophee wrote:
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
p...@attbi.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Life is a gamble, a chance, a mere guess.
Cast a line and reel in a splendid rainbow trout
or a slippery eel."
~Mourning Dove
Cogewea (1927)
Peter Inglis
I didn't like Wolfgang either until I saw Tom Holze as "Amadeus". So what?
He he... I remember my first lessons with a good classical teacher (not a
guitarist).
It took some months for her to convince me that the strong beats in music
were 1 and 3.
I _KNEW_ the strong beats were 2 and 4. I made my living on those beats!
--
Peter Inglis
email - gui...@migman.com
Read abour "The Whole Guitarist" at - www.migman.com/aes
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
news:kp2jkuk6m0spm7fma...@4ax.com...
John Wasak
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Klaus Heim wrote:
>
> >>Do you think the world will remember Brouwer for
> >>this last piece [ 'Cancion de cuna']? That this (and a few others like
it) are symptomatic of his
> >> style and are a mark of his artistic individuality?
>
> JW answered:
> >
> >Well, I'm not sure how, and even if, Brouwer will be remembered,
>
> Truer words have not been spoken. I have had occasion last night to
> browse through my collection of the old The Etude Magazine, published
> by the Theodore Presser Company, particularly the issues I have from
> the mid 1920s. They had then a column called Celebrated Contemporary
> Composers. They also had a column titled New Music, and a musical
> supplement containing New Music by these Celebrated Contemporary
> Composers. Mostly for piano solo, piano four hands, and some for
> violin and piano. I have never heard the names of most of these
> composers and the few I looked up in Baker's were not even listed.
>
> Moreover, judging by the number of newspaper advertisements, concert
> reviews and the like, the most celebrated guitarist in the early 19th
> century was Leonhard Schulz. Never heard of him?
>
Nope. Not at all.
> In his time Graupner was much more famous than his contemporary J.S.
> Bach.
>
And after his death, JS Bach himself almost disappeared from notice! He'd
fallen markedly out of favor. Thank goodness for Felix Mendolssohn!
JW
Klaus Heim
> Klaus Heim wrote:
> > I don't like Mozart, nor am I interested in him. I have no recording of
> his
> > music, no score.
>
> Well, you'll probably be happy to hear that the Mostly Mozart Festival
> Orchestra of Lincoln Center has just gone on strike and there will be no
> Mozart heard from them this month. ;-)
Yes, I heard that. But why my liking or disliking a composer should make me
think one way or the other towards others listening to him, I do not know.
In addition, I managed to happily study literature for years and still do
not like James Joyce, nor am I much interested in him. Even my repeated
trips to Dublin didn't change that much. What does this tell you? Nothing.
Only dim-witted people will try persecuting others, because they don't like
the right artists.
> > If a composer were to write a copy/pastiche/imitation of Mozart's
> "Requiem",
> > I guess some people would call him a 'traditional' composer. I would say
> > that he is more lost in tradition, than at home in it - and I would
> strongly
> > question the validity of this work, since it negates the concept of Art
as
> > an expression of the individual self.
> >
> > Ever heard Schnittke's "Moz-Art à la Haydn"?
> >
>
> No I haven't.
In general, Schnittke's polystylistics is very interesting in light of this
discussion.
> > > In the guitar world our effort to squeeze through a narrow definition
> for
> > > "contemporary" has us, again, gathered in front of the sticky wicket.
> > > There's easy example in Leo Brouwer. Is Brouwer to be lauded as a
> > > contemporary composer since he wrote 'Canticum'? A piece nicely
situated
> > in
> > > the "Spikey" category. Or is he to be consigned to the junk heap of
the
> > > antiquated and uninspired for penning 'Cancion de cuna'?
> >
> > I don't think it is right to want to view the output of a composer's
life
> as
> > one monolithic block. Do you think the world will remember Brouwer for
> this
> > last piece? That this (and a few others like it) are symptomatic of his
> > style and are a mark of his artistic individuality?
> >
>
> Well, I'm not sure how, and even if, Brouwer will be remembered, but if
he's
> remembered for 'Cancion de cuna' I wouldn't be surprised, after all,
there's
> probably more people who remember Mozart for "Twinkle, Twinkle Little
Star"
> than for the Requiem. ;-)
I had to look this up, I don't remember this (American?) song. It turns out
that Mozart isn't the composer of "Ah! Vous dirai-je, Maman".
> > Is Pärt's "Cantus
> > in memoriam Benjamin Britten" spikey? No. But try finding a similar
piece.
> >
>
> Well, you know Part is an interesting case since he began as a Serial
> stylist with his1st and 2nd Symphonies and even a collage-ist with his
> 'Collage on B-A-C-H', but it wasn't until he really went backwards in
time
> to study the choral part music of Machaut, Ockeghem, Josquin, etc.;
> medievelism, and plainchant that he discovered his style. So some of the
> 'Cantus' comes out of that medieval musical milieu, but of course it needs
> to be in a more modern style since it's in memory of a modern composer -
> Britten. It's also worth noting that a good deal of Part's works are very
> traditionally minded settings for religious texts and SATB choir.
At times it is the case, that composers of the 20th century looked back this
far. Also, I find that people, who, like me, listen to a lot of contemporary
music, have an affinity more towards really old music, and less towards 18th
and 19th century music. A nice example of this is the CD "Early Music" by
Kronos, featuring Machaut, Pärt, Perotin, Cage, Hildegard von Bingen,
Schnittke. As I have posted before, I have heard it said, that from a
musical stand-point, Schoenberg could have followed directly after Lassus,
Gesualdo, or Monteverdi. Ignoring the centuries in between. The choral works
of Lassus and Krenek do sound similar to me.
> > This is good tradition ;-) It has always been done. What is important
> > though, is being able to place the marks of one's individual
craftmanship.
> > Otherwise, I could listen to the original.
> >
>
> True and again I think Maximo Pujol's music is stamped with an individual
> craftsmanship.
Could you say what constitutes this individuality? Why should I listen to
Pujol and not to his predecessors?
Klaus
Klaus Heim
"Peter Inglis" <gui...@migman.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3d49f...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> ??
> I didn't like Wolfgang either until I saw Tom Holze as "Amadeus". So what?
> He he... I remember my first lessons with a good classical teacher (not a
> guitarist).
> It took some months for her to convince me that the strong beats in music
> were 1 and 3.
>
> I _KNEW_ the strong beats were 2 and 4. I made my living on those
beats!
Just let me hear some of that
Rock And Roll Music,
Any old way you choose it;
It's got a back beat, you can't lose it,
Any old time you use it.
- Chuck Berry
Larry Deack
"Klaus Heim"
> Only dim-witted people will try persecuting others, because they don't
like
> the right artists.
You are 1000% right! Hey, maybe you will figure it out after all if you can
get this far.
> Could you say what constitutes this individuality? Why should
> I listen to Pujol and not to his predecessors?
Never mind....
Matanya Ophee
>> True and again I think Maximo Pujol's music is stamped with an individual
>> craftsmanship.
>
>Could you say what constitutes this individuality?
Could _you_ say what constitutes the individuality of any of _your_
favorite composers? and is this individuality can be measured
independently of _your_ bias and prejudice, or mine?
>Why should I listen to
>Pujol and not to his predecessors?
We already established that no one should listen to anything he does
not like, and thus you should not listen to Pujol. I am sure your life
will be just as full of whatever it is full of without him. But the
interesting question you ask is whether you should listen to his
predecessors as an alternative to listening to Pujol. Again, if you
are not inclined to enjoy music of this part of the world, no, you
shouldn't waste time on it. But I wonder if you can tell us why you
would want to listen to Schnittke in preference to his predecessors,
or to Prokofiev's Classical Symphony and not to the original music
from which it borrows heavily, or to Respighi and not to the original
lute music which he used?
On seconds thoughts, I withdraw the question. I am sure you could tell
us. So forget it.
Klaus Heim
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:hoelku00kid4of7bs...@4ax.com...
>
> But I wonder if you can tell us why you
> would want to listen to Schnittke in preference to his predecessors,
> or to Prokofiev's Classical Symphony and not to the original music
> from which it borrows heavily, or to Respighi and not to the original
> lute music which he used?
>
> On seconds thoughts, I withdraw the question. I am sure you could tell
> us. So forget it.
Right you are, Mr. Ophee. And I think you must have also realized - late,
but not too late - that challenging me to describe the individuality of a
composer like Schnittke, whose name has become synonymous with a musical
style is probably not the wisest course of attempting to "shut me up for
good".
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
I told you once, and I'll tell you again, and again, and again:
reading sub texts into what I say is fascist propaganda techniques.
What I realize or do not realize is clearly spelled out in what I say.
Assigning to me meanings that are apparent to you, and to no one else,
is not the way to go. Of course, I have given up any hope of shutting
you up for good. Your verbal diarrhea is obviously a lost cause for
which there is no known antidote.
What I find here interesting is that when challenged to describe what
in _your_ personal judgement is unique about Schnittke, you resort to
citing a generalized view of his synonymy with something or other,
without being able to tell what this his style actually is. In other
words, your failure to answer the question, and ignoring the context
in which it was asked, is liable to lead one to think that actually,
you have no idea what it is you are talking about, that your knowledge
of the music of Schnittke is at best second hand, and your knowledge
of his place in the pantheon of Russian composers is highly colored by
the view of German critics who ignore his Russianness. And you are the
guy who have the stupid audacity to ask JW to describe the
individuality of Maximo Diego Pujol?
I guess you are.
Matanya Ophee
I guess I should have paid closer attention to this warning, but you
see, I am actually in a very good mood today. Just got the August
issue of Classical Guitar magazine, with raving reviews of some of my
recent publications, particularly Mark's Tango, Darin Au's Chasing
Dragons and the Sor Motet. The quotables in there are just about first
rate! But I am not going to spoil your fun with crass commercial
messages. This one is for the magazine! Get it.
John Wasak
> he's
> > remembered for 'Cancion de cuna' I wouldn't be surprised, after all,
> there's
> > probably more people who remember Mozart for "Twinkle, Twinkle Little
> Star"
> > than for the Requiem. ;-)
>
> I had to look this up, I don't remember this (American?) song. It turns
out
> that Mozart isn't the composer of "Ah! Vous dirai-je, Maman".
>
No, he wasn't, but his use of that tune often finds him being the one it's
attributed to. Here's a liitle further info I found:
The traditional tune associated with "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" is "Ah!
Vous dirai-Je, Maman," and appeared without words in a 1761 Paris
publication - M. Bouin's Les Amusements d'une Heure et Demy. Mozart used the
melody as the startng point for his playful "Twelve Variations on "Ah! Vous
dirai-je, maman" (K. 265) probably in Vienna in 1781-1782 and published in
1785 by Christoph Torricella in Aira Variée. The poem "Twinkle, Twinkle
Little Star" was published in 1806, in a book called "Rhymes for the
Nursery". It was called "The Star" and written by Jane Taylor, a British
children's poet, with her sister, Ann. The music and the poem were finally
printed toether in 1881 in "The Franklin Square Song collection". The song
also came to be sung as 'ABCDEFG' under the title "The Schoolmaster" in
1834. A similar tune has been set to "Baa, Baa Black Sheep," the words for
which appeared in print in about 1744 in Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book. The
tune is also used in the German "Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank?".
> >
> > True and again I think Maximo Pujol's music is stamped with an
individual
> > craftsmanship.
>
> Could you say what constitutes this individuality? Why should I listen to
> Pujol and not to his predecessors?
>
I thought I'd already suggested the answer to this when I said that Pujol
looks at his tradition with new eyes. The reason to listen to Maximo Pujol
is that he is Maximo Pujol - that is to say he is an individual composer,
different from his predecessors in ways that I believe are apparent.
JW
Klaus Heim
>
> No, he wasn't, but his use of that tune often finds him being the one it's
> attributed to. Here's a liitle further info I found:
>
> The traditional tune associated with "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" is
"Ah!
> Vous dirai-Je, Maman," and appeared without words in a 1761 Paris
> publication - M. Bouin's Les Amusements d'une Heure et Demy. Mozart used
the
> melody as the startng point for his playful "Twelve Variations on "Ah!
Vous
> dirai-je, maman" (K. 265) probably in Vienna in 1781-1782 and published in
> 1785 by Christoph Torricella in Aira Variée. The poem "Twinkle, Twinkle
> Little Star" was published in 1806, in a book called "Rhymes for the
> Nursery". It was called "The Star" and written by Jane Taylor, a British
> children's poet, with her sister, Ann. The music and the poem were finally
> printed toether in 1881 in "The Franklin Square Song collection". The
song
> also came to be sung as 'ABCDEFG' under the title "The Schoolmaster" in
> 1834. A similar tune has been set to "Baa, Baa Black Sheep," the words for
> which appeared in print in about 1744 in Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book.
The
> tune is also used in the German "Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank?".
Now what is this strange thing? I never heard the word "Schnitzelbank", nor
the song. In any case, the grammar of the title is incorrect, Schnitzelbank
is feminine, it should be "eine", not "ein". From what this tells me, and
from what I find on the web, I would guess that this is an American
invention. I have found another usage of the word Schnitzelbank, especially
in Swiss carnival (Fastnacht), but I don't think that is appropriate here.
Maybe this Mozart example is not the best, but it does occur and not too
seldomly at that, that a quote is quoted. You can make reference to two
sources at one time. For example, Mark Delpriora in his Second Sonata quotes
Dallapiccola, who in turn quotes Bach.
> > > True and again I think Maximo Pujol's music is stamped with an
> individual
> > > craftsmanship.
> >
> > Could you say what constitutes this individuality? Why should I listen
to
> > Pujol and not to his predecessors?
> >
>
> I thought I'd already suggested the answer to this when I said that Pujol
> looks at his tradition with new eyes. The reason to listen to Maximo
Pujol
> is that he is Maximo Pujol - that is to say he is an individual composer,
> different from his predecessors in ways that I believe are apparent.
I spent some time this evening playing through some of Pujol's works. It is
easily understandable, why this music has appeal. Though I still would have
trouble making more of it.
Klaus
John Wasak
> > tune is also used in the German "Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank?".
>
>
> Now what is this strange thing? I never heard the word "Schnitzelbank",
nor
> the song. In any case, the grammar of the title is incorrect,
Schnitzelbank
> is feminine, it should be "eine", not "ein". From what this tells me, and
> from what I find on the web, I would guess that this is an American
> invention. I have found another usage of the word Schnitzelbank,
especially
> in Swiss carnival (Fastnacht), but I don't think that is appropriate here.
>
It's a nonsense song. Schnitzelbank is a sawhorse. Like a carpenter would
use.
The song goes:
Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank?
Ja, das ist ein Schnitzelbank.
Ah, du schoene, ah, du schoene, ah, du schoene Schnitzelbank.
This is sung over and over again, only each time it's sung you change
"Schnitzelbank" to something else. The first change is to "kurz und lang";
the next, "hin und her"; the next, "kreuz und quer", and so on . Each word
is accompanied by a crude little drawing.
I found the complete set of words and drawings here (it take a bit to load,
so be patient):
http://www.schnitzelbank.com/poster.htm
Perhaps it will amuse you!
JW
Klaus Heim
>
> >Or the third movement from Denisov's Sonata, called "Souvenir d'Espagne".
> >Hey cool, flamenco we think and off we go with our rasgueado chords. But
> >wait, something isn't quite right here. It is not really flamenco at all,
it
> >is a sort of flamenco, a flamenco filtered through Denisov.
>
> Of course it is not flamenco, and I discussed this very issue with
> Edison himself when he was a guest in our house back in 1989. The only
> difference between this movement and the kind of flamenco written, and
> performed, by Paco Shevchenko, is that Shevchenko knows what real
> flamenco is, and that is name is not usually associated with that of a
> leading composer of his time. Denisov's Souvenir is a hoeky
> pseudo-ersatz-phoney Russian misunderstanding of what flamenco is all
> about. At least, Mikhail Glinka had the good sense of writing this
> kind of pastiches at a time no one knew anything about flamenco and
> when even the term itself was not yet coined. Edison understood that
> very well and that is why he agreed then to accept from me a
> commission for another sonata. Alas, that has never happened.
Did Denisov tell you he was attempting a serious flamenco imitation? I can
hardly imagine that. My reading has always been a different one. Did serious
composers in the 1980's still write Souvenir d'Espagne's? Especially those,
who like Denisov, had little to no connection with Spain. Denisov, with his
lyrical, color-influenced (traditional) Russian music, was much more drawn
towards France, than Spain. It would come as a great surprise, if he indeed
did not mean this movement to be ironic. I would then really have to revise
my reading of this piece.
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
>
>"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:kp2jkuk6m0spm7fma...@4ax.com...
>>
>> >Or the third movement from Denisov's Sonata, called "Souvenir d'Espagne".
>> >Hey cool, flamenco we think and off we go with our rasgueado chords. But
>> >wait, something isn't quite right here. It is not really flamenco at all,
>it
>> >is a sort of flamenco, a flamenco filtered through Denisov.
>>
>> Of course it is not flamenco, and I discussed this very issue with
>> Edison himself when he was a guest in our house back in 1989. The only
>> difference between this movement and the kind of flamenco written, and
>> performed, by Paco Shevchenko, is that Shevchenko knows what real
>> flamenco is, and that is name is not usually associated with that of a
>> leading composer of his time. Denisov's Souvenir is a hoeky
>> pseudo-ersatz-phoney Russian misunderstanding of what flamenco is all
>> about. At least, Mikhail Glinka had the good sense of writing this
>> kind of pastiches at a time no one knew anything about flamenco and
>> when even the term itself was not yet coined. Edison understood that
>> very well and that is why he agreed then to accept from me a
>> commission for another sonata. Alas, that has never happened.
>
>Did Denisov tell you he was attempting a serious flamenco imitation? I can
>hardly imagine that.
No he did not, and I suspect he had no idea what serious flamenco was
or how to imitate it. At the time this piece was written, mid 1970s,
Edison's son Dmitry, a noted flute player at the time, was
concertizing together with Nikolai Komolyatov, one of the leading
guitarists in Moscow (teacher of Alexei Zimakov, it will be recalled).
Edison's exposure to Spanish guitar music was certainly based on his
contacts with Komolyatov, whom he knew personally, and not on any
acquaintance with authentic Spanish music. It should be noted that the
Sonata was not dedicated to Reinbert Evers, and when it was
re-published in the Soviet Union in 1986 (Sovietski Kompozitor,
Moscow, No. C7418K), it was completely re-edited by Alexander
Martynov.
Even on a cursory glance, it is apparent that Martynov's editing was
mainly involved in the fingering and the notation of rasgueado, and
thus of no great significance to the interpretation of the work.
Nevertheless, it is remarkable that Denisov would not insist that the
Soviet edition followed the Sikorski edition precisely, even if they
had to put the local guy's name on the work.
>My reading has always been a different one. Did serious
>composers in the 1980's still write Souvenir d'Espagne's?
Of course they did, and they still do, even if they do not use this
actual title. I even published recently a work of this genre--the
Canço i Dansa, Homenaje a Federic Mompou by the Uruguayan-Israeli
composer Ruben Seroussi. As a matter of fact, I heard recently that
this work will be soon recorded by a major guitarist who has collected
an entire program of Spanish music composed by non-Spanish composers.
And I dare you to say that Seroussi is not a "serious" composer,
whatever that means. As for well known, mainstream composers, Rodion
Shchedrin's Carmen pastiche quickly comes to mind.
>Especially those,
>who like Denisov, had little to no connection with Spain. Denisov, with his
>lyrical, color-influenced (traditional) Russian music, was much more drawn
>towards France, than Spain. It would come as a great surprise, if he indeed
>did not mean this movement to be ironic. I would then really have to revise
>my reading of this piece.
The irony is something _you_ are reading into this. There is no way
for you to invade the mind of a dead composer and search for
motivations.
There was no need for Edison Denisov to consciously manufacture a
quasi-flamenco piece as an ironic comment on something or somebody,
and then allow it to be published in Germany and edited by a German
guitarist who cannot be accused of being an Hispanophile.
The best I could gather from talking to him in person over the course
of an entire week here in Columbus OH, (he was invited by the Ohio
State University as a composer-in-residence for one week, during which
he gave master classes, lectures etc. My job was to keep him company
when he was not at the school) 12 years ago, is that the piece was
inspired by his son's association with Russian guitarists and _their_
understanding of the Spanish idiom.
The explanations for what really goes on in the music world are much
simpler sometimes than your imagination pretends. Jaume Torrent may
not have included in the Catalan compilation because of personal
reasons, and Denisov did not write his Souvenir d'Espagne as a
souvenir of a country he never visited.
Klaus Heim
>
> The irony is something _you_ are reading into this. There is no way
> for you to invade the mind of a dead composer and search for
> motivations.
No. I never really liked the "Spanish" flavor of the movement, but the idea
of irony initially came from someone else, namely Reinbert Evers, who you
mention above. He says: "Diese Form der Verfremdung und Ironie geht wohl
über das musikalische Verständnis vieler Gitarristen hinaus, es ist ihnen
fremd" and "Dennoch, das wesentliche bleibt m.E. die ironische Brechung, und
ich wünsche mir einfach mehr Kollegen, die Musik nicht nur danach
beurteilen, was sie auf den ersten Blick zu sehen meinen, sondern mehr
hinter die Dinge schauen. Viele Phänomene in der Kunst, das gilt nicht nur
für die Musik, bedürfen eines tieferen Zugangs." ("This form of
defamiliarization and irony probably goes beyond the musical understanding
of many guitarists, it is alien to them." and "Nevertheless, the important
thing in my opinion is the ironic refraction, and I wish for more
colleagues, who do not judge music by that, which they seem to see at first
sight, but who look more behind the things. Many phenomena in art, this does
not apply to music alone, need a deeper approach." from, "Die Gitarre im
Aufbruch", Munich 1994, pp.175-176)
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
OK, you are off the hook. Now what I would be interested in finding
out is if this is Reinbert's own concepts of this particular movement
(your citation does not say so specifically), or is it based on
something Denisov said to him. And in my experience, it is not unusual
for Soviet composers, or for composers in general for that matter, to
say different things to different people depending on the particular
situation at hand.
Klaus Heim
I had assumed there must have been some form of collaboration/correspondence
between Denisov and Evers at some time (during the writing of the sonata,
preparing the premiere). In the passage I quote, I got the impression that
it was his own opinion, that Evers was expressing (he say "m.E.", meaning
"meines Erachtens", "in my opinion"). Whether it is really his original
concept, or if this was influenced by Denisov, I cannot say.
I think you mentioned a while back, that you have a tape of Evers playing
this Sonata. It should be interesting to listen to the third movement, if
his interpretation holds up to his theoretical view on this movement.
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
>I had assumed there must have been some form of collaboration/correspondence
>between Denisov and Evers at some time (during the writing of the sonata,
>preparing the premiere).
That is possible, but personally, I rather doubt it. Most certainly
Denisov worked with Nikolai Komolyatov on this work, and on the flute
and guitar sonata, much before he sent the manuscript to Sikorski. As
for an official premier, if indeed there was one in Germany, it does
not exclude the possibility of an earlier one in Moscow by either
Komolyatov or Martynov.
> In the passage I quote, I got the impression that
>it was his own opinion, that Evers was expressing (he say "m.E.", meaning
>"meines Erachtens", "in my opinion"). Whether it is really his original
>concept, or if this was influenced by Denisov, I cannot say.
Evers is of course entitled to his opinion, but it is remarkable, I
think, that this opinion was expressed in 1994, 5 years after I
discussed this issue with Denisov, and the same year Evers came to
visit me in Columbus. Either way, it seems like an attempt to
legitimize the existence of a piece of crap from the pen of one of the
greatest composers of the 20th century.
>I think you mentioned a while back, that you have a tape of Evers playing
>this Sonata. It should be interesting to listen to the third movement, if
>his interpretation holds up to his theoretical view on this movement.
No. What I have is the recording, by Evers and the Frankfurt
orchestra, and a copy of the original manuscript, of the concerto.
Edison gave these to me in Moscow, '96 or 97, and asked me to
distribute it among American guitarists. I did that, and did receive
some favorable opinions from one leading American guitarist who
specializes, among others, in contemporary music. He said that this
was the best concerto of the 20th century. I agree of course, but it
seems that once things of this nature get premiered, they disappear
from the scene. See all the fine concerti dedicated to and premiered
by Sharon Isbin, the Ma'ayani, Themen, Corigliano, Tan Dun, Schwantner
etc etc.
Organizing a concerto performance and recording it is an expensive
proposition and unless one has access to outside funding, and a lot of
hype and personal dedication, concerti do not get performed.
Darius Schock
> Scott Daughtrey wrote:
> > John Wasak wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, that has something to do with it. That whole tone scale certainly
> > > defines the first movement 'Divertimento' and appears also in the
> 'Preludio
> > > e toccatina'.
> >
> > For a minute I thought you were crazy, then I remembered the whole-tone
> scale in
> > measure 4 ot PeT, the last two beats. It is quite a different use here, in
> the
> > sense that it's really acting less a WT scale than a V chord (augmented)
> setting
> > uo the following G maj7#11 chord.
> >
> > On a personal note, I find Fuoco a little melodically flacid compared to
> > Aquarelle (Fuoco seems to have stronger strengths in it's rhymic than
> melodic
> > content)
>
> Yes, I agree, the Fuoco is more about the rhythm than Aquarelle.
Good point to jump in... Besides talking of melody and hamrmony (and
if they are inspired by Debussy or Ravel or whoever), Assad's work
requires a closer look on the rhythmics. As he himself explains, his
work has to be viewed in relation to his brazilian background (one
mentioned some brazilian composers as inspirations above). Much is
about latin-american rhythmic patterns (that can often be figured out
by looking for accents and articulation marks). But of course his
music has that melodic development from that three-note motive. For
me, that piece gained a lot more sense when I became aware of the
rhythmic patterns.
I wonder if anyone knows for sure what Sergio Assad had in mind with
that title "Aquarelle"...
DS
>
>
> >but I can see many similiarities as pieces.
>
> Me too.
>
>
> > I would't want to comment
> > on the others as Fuoco is the only piece of Libre Sonatine I've heard.
> >
> > Have you ever heard anyone do convincing Ravel on guitar? (Has Barrueco
> done any
> > Ravel?)
> >
> > Scott
> >
>
> Well, I don't care that much for Ravel on guitar but there's Anders Miolin's
> Ravel recording done on a ten-string guitar. He does things like "Alborado
> del gracioso" from Miroirs and "Le Gibet" from Gaspard de la nuit.
>
>
> JW
John Wasak
> I wonder if anyone knows for sure what Sergio Assad had in mind with
> that title "Aquarelle"...
>
Well, who could say, but with Aquarelle being a watercolor and "aqua" being
about water or a light greenish blue color, maybe it's a depiction of
shimmering water in an impressionistic
style...hey!...impressionist!...there's that Debussy again! whatt'ya know?!
JW
GuitarPoet
Aquarelle also means a drawing done in transparent watercolors and the
actual mode of painting in such colors. Taking into account the light,
jazzy bossa-nova harmonies (you know like Tom Jobim's "Wave"), the use
of the whole tone scale as in Debussy, the "Bluesy" chords like blue
water that appear in the first and last movements,as well as the
myriad of rhythms throughout the piece that suggest the many movements
of water from a graceful shimmering pond of a waltz ("Valseana") to a
driving waterfall or torrential storm of sixteenth notes, ("Preludio E
Toccatina") Assad is a masterful "Aquarellist", or one who draws (in
this case composes) Aquarelles.
GuitarPoet
John Wasak
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<VLj39.13677$cI.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> > Darius Schock wrote:
> > > I wonder if anyone knows for sure what Sergio Assad had in mind with
> > > that title "Aquarelle"...
> > >
> >
> > Well, who could say, but with Aquarelle being a watercolor and "aqua"
being
> > about water or a light greenish blue color, maybe it's a depiction of
> > shimmering water in an impressionistic
> > style...hey!...impressionist!...there's that Debussy again! whatt'ya
know?!
> >
> >
> > JW
>
> Aquarelle also means a drawing done in transparent watercolors and the
> actual mode of painting in such colors.
>
And there's also Aquarelle paper on which to apply the watercolor/aquarelle
and Aquarelle Pencils though I suppose if that's what he was thinking of
he'd a named it "Aquarelle Pencils"!
Or, on yet another tack, maybe it had something to do with the Charlie
Byrd/Washington Guitar Quintet recording 'Aquarelle', which contains the
Almeida "Los Angeles Acquarelle Suite", and the DeMoraes/Jobim "Modinha"
among other things.
I wonder as I wander.....
JW
Greg M. Silverman
>
>I wonder as I wander.....
>
Joel Cohen and The Boston Camarata do a great version of this.
Greg--
John Wasak
I think I saw a Christmas CD by them in the stores last year but I've never
heard it. I remember hearing John Rutter's Cambridge Singers on this one
though.
JW
Greg M. Silverman
>Greg M. Silverman wrote:
>
>>John Wasak wrote:
>>
>>>I wonder as I wander.....
>>>
>>Joel Cohen and The Boston Camarata do a great version of this.
>>
>>Greg--
>>
>
>I think I saw a Christmas CD by them in the stores last year but I've never
>heard it.
>
Got the CD and also saw them perform it live and in person. An
incredible ensemble.
Greg--
Matanya Ophee
>Now if
>you really want to hear Catalan music that will guarantee to turn your
>stomach, try the music of Francesc de Paula Soler.
For example:
Now, I wonder what would you say of that one?
Klaus Heim
> Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote:
>
> >Now if
> >you really want to hear Catalan music that will guarantee to turn your
> >stomach, try the music of Francesc de Paula Soler.
>
> For example:
>
> http://fpsoler.eresmas.net
>
> Now, I wonder what would you say of that one?
I am slightly amused, when performers wish to glorify themselves, by
"revising" perfectly good music. I guess being "The Poet of the Guitar" is
legitimation enough for such proceedings.
Question: Does Mel Bay have some sort of quality control, or do they publish
more or less everything that comes their way?
I must say though, that I wasn't sure if this guy was for real, so I checked
the Mel Bay site for verification. The Soler book seems to be out of print.
Boohoo.
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
>> For example:
>>
>> http://fpsoler.eresmas.net
>>
>> Now, I wonder what would you say of that one?
>
>I am slightly amused, when performers wish to glorify themselves, by
>"revising" perfectly good music. I guess being "The Poet of the Guitar" is
>legitimation enough for such proceedings.
Certainly is. About on the same level as The Next Greatest Guitarist,
the Royal Family of the Guitar, the First lady of the Guitar etc etc.
>Question: Does Mel Bay have some sort of quality control, or do they publish
>more or less everything that comes their way?
That depends. When a piece goes through an editor, like in the case of
the Stanley Yates series, that is enough quality control. But the fact
of the matter is that MB has published a considerable number of things
I, and some other publishers, have rejected out of hand. They have
such a powerful distribution system that quality, in the sense I
understand the term, does not matter. They sell it. So who's to argue
with that?
>
>I must say though, that I wasn't sure if this guy was for real, so I checked
>the Mel Bay site for verification. The Soler book seems to be out of print.
>Boohoo.
The guy is for real. I remember one recital of his in Esztergom, mid
1980s or so. Was quite enough. But one thing must be said: this is not
a phenomenon restricted to Cataluña. You find similar guitarists all
over the world. Anton del Forno, Terence Farrell, Lynn Gangbar, Galina
Vale, Ekard Lind, Ivao Suzuki, Pavel Ricar, to mention a few. People
with pretty solid technical ability, and not much else.