re: Segovia and Barrios
PBM
another anecdote to add to this folkore.
A friend here in France told me he that he read in a book ("Histoire de la
guitare" by Miteran) that Segovia LOVED "La catedral", went to see Barrios
and asked him to dedicate it to the maestro. Barrios responded that that
was impossible because "La catedral" was already dedicated to someone else
(Stover'e edition contains no dedication).
After Barrios' refusal to dedicate the work to Segovia, Segovia refused to
ever perform or record a Barrios piece. Can anyone corroborate this version
of history?
tro...@yahoo.com
Cheez, they are both dead a long time ago. Does it still matter?
Actually I'll be curious to know that too.
Cheers,
Troy II
paulfraser
times including annagrams. La Catedral primarily consisted of the second
two movements the first was added later as a dedication to his wife.
Tim Panting
No, oh no, oh no, oh no!
<tro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1106580303.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
old...@gmail.com
Hmm, if Barrios is still alive, he would be close to 120 year old
today. I'm wondering if he can play Maxixe :-)
Quote -
Barrios was born on May 5 th, 1885 in Paraguay into a very musical
family and was christened Agustín Pío Barrios.
Unquote -
Peace,
John Nguyen
Joe
http://www.guitarramagazine.com/issue46_sep_oct_1981/p8.asp
What about that? - [Second question]
bugbuster
bb
paul c
>
>PBM wrote:
>> Was reading over an old thread ("Segovia & Barrios" Jan. 5, 2000) and
>have
>> another anecdote to add to this folkore.
>>
>> A friend here in France told me he that he read in a book ("Histoire
>de la
>> guitare" by Miteran) that Segovia LOVED "La catedral", went to see
>Barrios
>> and asked him to dedicate it to the maestro. Barrios responded that
>that
>> was impossible because "La catedral" was already dedicated to someone
>else
>> (Stover'e edition contains no dedication).
>>
>> After Barrios' refusal to dedicate the work to Segovia, Segovia
>refused to
>> ever perform or record a Barrios piece. Can anyone corroborate this
>version
>> of history?
>
Question:
What is your opinion of Augustin Barrios?
Segovia:
You know, I knew Augustin Barrios. I had great empathy for him, but I
think that he lacked sufficient knowledge in music to consider him a
composer. It is a great pity because he had very beautiful ideas, but
the development of those ideas, according to the eternal laws of
composition, was absolutely absent, and this is why I don't play
anything by him.
Hmm I'm sure there are those that disagree with Segovia on this
matter. John Williams does for one. I think this may have been
covered here before. I'll check out the archive.
paul
PBM
> What is your opinion of Augustin Barrios?
>
> Segovia:
> You know, I knew Augustin Barrios. I had great empathy for him, but I
> think that he lacked sufficient knowledge in music to consider him a
> composer. It is a great pity because he had very beautiful ideas, but
> the development of those ideas, according to the eternal laws of
> composition, was absolutely absent, and this is why I don't play
> anything by him.
>
> Hmm I'm sure there are those that disagree with Segovia on this
> matter. John Williams does for one. I think this may have been
> covered here before. I'll check out the archive.
>
> paul
Oh, it's definitely been covered ad infinitum, but it's always worth
re-hashing i.m.o. There's no foregiving Segovia on this score. Had he
behaved honestly and self-effacingly (just once in his life) Barrios could
have enjoyed while alive some of the international recognition that he has
garnered post-humously. Anyway, justice has a way of emerging, though not
always satisfactorily. The justice is that no body listens to Segovia any
more, and when we do it's well-nigh intolerable, whereas Barrios is
omnipresent as far as guitarists' repoertoires go.
I don't see how anybody could listen to Julia Florida or La Catedral and
claim that Barrios didn't know how to develop a compositional idea. The
guy's romantic musical imagination (the way melodic ideas flow into new
ones, as John Williams explains it very nicely) was way beyond mnay of
Segovia's favorite composers. I mean, how many of us here really enjoy
listening to Villa Lobos's preludes more than a Barrios piece?
.
mike
more, and when we do it's well-nigh intolerable, whereas Barrios ..."
Sorry, but I still listen to Segovia as well as to many other
performers.
Mike
PBM
>
> Sorry, but I still listen to Segovia as well as to many other
> performers.
>
> Mike
No need to be sorry. I'm sorry for you for having to listen to that drivel.
Theo Jacobs
Theo
"PBM" <paulbem...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:41f61f62$0$6588$8fcf...@news.wanadoo.fr...
PBM
listening to Segovia last night. However when I do listen to his disks,
it's more out of historical curiosity than anything else. I like David
Russell. There, is that going out on a limb?
"Theo Jacobs" <t.ja...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:3frJd.366$Mw3.336@amstwist00...
Greg M. Silverman
> Let's not get into it. I was just kidding of course. In fact I was just
> listening to Segovia last night. However when I do listen to his disks,
> it's more out of historical curiosity than anything else. I like David
> Russell. There, is that going out on a limb?
I'd rather listen to Segovia than Russell. I think he had more
personality in his playing.
gms--
Joe
> Oh, it's definitely been covered ad infinitum, but it's always worth
> re-hashing i.m.o. There's no foregiving Segovia on this score. Had
he
> behaved honestly and self-effacingly (just once in his life) Barrios
could
> have enjoyed while alive some of the international recognition that
he has
> garnered post-humously. Anyway, justice has a way of emerging,
though not
> always satisfactorily. The justice is that no body listens to
Segovia any
> more, and when we do it's well-nigh intolerable, whereas Barrios is
> omnipresent as far as guitarists' repoertoires go.
Really now? - "well-nigh intolerable" ... That's a great way to put
allot of playing nowadays, but not Segovia's!
And as for Barrios' compositions being "as far as guitarists'
repoertoires go": Try listening to Bach sometime.
>
> I don't see how anybody could listen to Julia Florida or La Catedral
and
> claim that Barrios didn't know how to develop a compositional idea.
The
> guy's romantic musical imagination (the way melodic ideas flow into
new
> ones, as John Williams explains it very nicely) was way beyond mnay
of
> Segovia's favorite composers.
Be specific, which composers are you referring to? You have to be aware
of the fact that Barrios lived in a different environment and era! Just
because Segovia played works that were more dignified and regal; this
doesn't mean Barrios was "beyond" any of the composers that Segovia
admired.
I mean, how many of us here really enjoy
> listening to Villa Lobos's preludes more than a Barrios piece?
I do- Barrios' music was composed in a sort of "Semi-folk style", and
not as musically advanced and pure as Villa-Lobos'. He did compose some
nice pieces worth listening to though-
It's hard to put into words, but, Villa-Lobos was more of a mature
composer; imo.
Greg M. Silverman
>
> It's hard to put into words, but, Villa-Lobos was more of a mature
> composer; imo.
>
I LOVE his music, especially the string quartets, but the interesting
thing is that Villa Lobos never wrote any true polyphony (at least that
I know of). Furthermore, in his biography by Lisa Peppercorn, one thing
he never really did learn was how to do counterpoint. He always wanted
to, but never did.
So, an excellent as well as a highly prolific composer, definitely. But
without any polyphonic works to his credit, the designation of mature is
not appropriate.
gms--
Joe
is more interesting to listen to, more "musical" than "lullaby(ish)" if
you will, than Barrios'.
PBM
> Really now? - "well-nigh intolerable" ... That's a great way to put
> allot of playing nowadays, but not Segovia's!
Touché.
> And as for Barrios' compositions being "as far as guitarists'
> repoertoires go": Try listening to Bach sometime.
Sorry for the typo. "Repertoires". But what does Bach have to do with it?
Ok, there's a lot of Bach on guitarists' programs. A lot of Barrios too.
> Be specific, which composers are you referring to? You have to be aware
> of the fact that Barrios lived in a different environment and era! Just
> because Segovia played works that were more dignified and regal; this
> doesn't mean Barrios was "beyond" any of the composers that Segovia
> admired.
Ok, I´ll be specific. I think it would have behooved Segovia to play more
Barrios and less Castelnuovo-Tedesco.
>
> I mean, how many of us here really enjoy
> > listening to Villa Lobos's preludes more than a Barrios piece?
>
> I do- Barrios' music was composed in a sort of "Semi-folk style", and
> not as musically advanced and pure as Villa-Lobos'. He did compose some
> nice pieces worth listening to though-
>
> It's hard to put into words, but, Villa-Lobos was more of a mature
> composer; imo.
Ok, so I guess "semi-folk style" is a pejorative qualifier for you. Like
Bartok's Hungarian Dances. Or Stravinsky. Or practially all of
Villa-Lobo's works for guitar (excluding the Etudes, perhaps, and even
then...) for that matter. "Not as musically advanced". I think Barrios'
compositions are just as musically advanced and more polished and refined
that Villa Lobos (by the way, Villa Lobos obviously has some nice music, so
I'm not trashing his entire opus here). Leo Brouwer had the cojones to
say it and I agree completely: Villa Lobos had good ideas that often led
nowhere. His compositions just tend to trail off into ennui. So I don't
know how or why Villa Lobos was more mature than Barrios. And what you mean
by "pure" only you know. Actually it occurs to me that the Sex Pistols were
pretty pure.
Greg M. Silverman
> Forgive my wording GMS,
You are forgiven my son.
> I was only trying to point out that his music
> is more interesting to listen to, more "musical" than "lullaby(ish)" if
> you will, than Barrios'.
>
I agree with you, but don't foget a lot of HVL's stuff was folk inspired
stuff. In the end: It's all subjective.
But, I really wish HVL would have gotten off his lazy duff and learned
counterpoint. According to Peppercorn's bio of him (which, BTW, I highly
recommend you read), he did not have the patience for formal learning. I
really don't blame him, but still, makes one wonder what he could have done.
gms--
Greg M. Silverman
> Joe wrote:
>
>> Forgive my wording GMS,
>
>
>
> You are forgiven my son.
>
>
>> I was only trying to point out that his music
>> is more interesting to listen to, more "musical" than "lullaby(ish)" if
>> you will, than Barrios'.
>>
>
> I agree with you, but don't foget a lot of HVL's stuff was folk inspired
> stuff. In the end: It's all subjective.
Actually, rereading this, I don't agree completely. I do like HVL's
music more than Barrios', but that's where my agreement ends.
I don't agree with your designations of "more musical than
lullaby(iush)..." This is a purely subjective statement, which is fine,
but it should be presented then as such, like "IMO, I think that..."
For starters, since when is folk bad? What about the European masters,
from Vaughn Williams to Grieg to Bartok that were inspired by folk
music. Or what about Aussie Percy Grainger?
Lullabyish? Some of the most beautiful music is in the form of Berceuse.
If you don't know what this is, look it up.
Joe
(in my limited vocabulary) how HVL is, in essence, a better composer
than Barrios.
Greg M. Silverman
Well, Mr. Joe - Sometimes we cannot express these things easily in
words, so the best thing to say in these situations is, "As a composer,
HVL winds my binder more than Barrios. He has a certain je ne sais quoi..."
Ciao!
gms--
Joe
Arrivederci!
Joe.
paul c
Fwiw, Maestro Barrueco <i figure he prefers the term
maestro just like the dude on Seinfeld> :) opines that HVL was the
greatest composer for the guitar. Yes better than Barrios. Segovia, on
the other hand, opined that Ponce was the greatest composer for the
guitar. Two giants to be sure. Barrueco was asked well what about
Sor and Guiliani. While the Maestro liked some of the compositions he
stressed that they were written in a well-established form whereas
VillaLobos went well beyond that. I think this was from an interview
in Classical Guitar magazine some years back.
paul
David Raleigh Arnold
I don't believe it. Segovia had a backlog of pieces sent to him by
various composers. He had to choose. I suspect that he tended to choose
Spanish works over (pan) American. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I think the reason he gave for not playing Barrios was overtaken by the
reality that he had too many things to play anyway.
How many of Barrios' compositions are unfinished, like the 'Estudio
Inconcluso'? It has too many missing notes. What's with that? Is
Rick Stover really so bad that he didn't notice? daveA
--
The only technical exercises for guitar which are worthy of the
instrument consist in "Dynamic Guitar Technique". I promise miracles.
Get it at: http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html
daveA David Raleigh Arnold dra..at..openguitar.com
Peter Inglis - TWG
re Villa-Lobos>
> So, an excellent as well as a highly prolific composer, definitely. But
> without any polyphonic works to his credit, the designation of mature is
> not appropriate.
>
> gms--
Geez Greg you are a hard man to impress
; < )
--
Regards,
Peter Inglis - www.thewholeguitarist.com
-- email: pe...@thewholeguitarist.com
-- Read "Guitar Playing and How it Works"...
-- A new terminology and approach to the guitar based
-- on principles of the Alexander Technique and dance.
-- Videos of my guitar playing at www.thewholeguitarist.com/listen.htm
Greg M. Silverman
> Greg M. Silverman wrote:
> re Villa-Lobos>
>
>> So, an excellent as well as a highly prolific composer, definitely.
>> But without any polyphonic works to his credit, the designation of
>> mature is not appropriate.
>>
>> gms--
>
>
>
> Geez Greg you are a hard man to impress
> ; < )
>
>
I think HVL would have agreed with me. According to Peppercorn's bio, he
always wanted to go through the formal hoops of learning advanced
compositional techniques, but apparently, he did not have the patience
for it.
I still love his rhythmically driven music. Especially the string
quartets. Way cool stuff. And he is one of my favorite composers.
Dig!
gms--
Sarn Dyer
'But that I can guarantee: my art is my own, and one could not possibly
identify it with that poison that calls itself Modernism and has a
pathologically intoxicating effect on all the striving talents of today,
whether they are young or old.'
Ouch - but I take it, from that quote, that his impatience may have been
as much with current notions of the 'advanced compositional
techniques' that Greg mentions and that he saw his music as a direct
answer to the 'Modernism' he hated.
SD
Greg M. Silverman
> Peppercorn also quotes VL as saying (in an interview):
>
> 'But that I can guarantee: my art is my own, and one could not possibly
> identify it with that poison that calls itself Modernism and has a
> pathologically intoxicating effect on all the striving talents of today,
> whether they are young or old.'
>
> Ouch - but I take it, from that quote, that his impatience may have been
> as much with current notions of the 'advanced compositional techniques'
> that Greg mentions and that he saw his music as a direct answer to the
> 'Modernism' he hated.
>
Actually, it was the formal study of harmony and counterpoint in general
to which I am referring. I believe, and without Peppercorn immediately
available to verify my claim, VL always wanted to delve into the
formalized study of compositional techniques, but he basically did not
have the patience to pursue it and was always side tracked with other work.
I do however remember his disparaging remarks about modern composition.
Ouch indeed!
gms--
Sarn Dyer
buying text books on composition since 'he had been lazy and negligent
in former years'. He was troubled, she says, by 'construction, the
contrapuntal and thematic treatment'. Also, by the instrumentation.
A quick scan didn't find the 'impatience' quote, but probably same
difference.
Peter Inglis - TWG
> Peppercorn writes that, around 1917, VL, although impoverished, began
> buying text books on composition since 'he had been lazy and negligent
> in former years'. He was troubled, she says, by 'construction, the
> contrapuntal and thematic treatment'. Also, by the instrumentation.
>
> A quick scan didn't find the 'impatience' quote, but probably same
> difference.
>
> SD
BTW we should reminder the listener that this is a "lazy" composer who
wrote about 1,000 pieces, including
OPERAS: Izaht (1912-14); Yerma (1955-6).
CHÔROS: No.1, gui, (1920); No.2, fl., cl. (1924); No.3, 7 winds, male
ch. (1925); No.4, 2 hn., tb. (1926); No.5, pf. (1926); No.6, orch.
(1926); No.7, 5 winds, vn., vc. (1924); No.8, 2 pf., orch. (1925); No.9,
orch. (1929); No.10, orch., ch. (1925); No.11, pf., orch. (1928); No.12,
orch. (1929); No.13, 2 orchs., band (1929); No.14, orch., band, ch.
(1928). Also Chôros bis, vn., vc. (1928)
BACHIANAS BRASILEIRAS: 1. 8 vc. (1930); 2. The Little Train of the
Caipira, chamber orch. (1934); 3. pf., orch. (1934); 4. pf. (1930-40) or
orch. (1941); 5. v., 8 vcs. (1938); 6. fl., bn. (1938); 7. orch. (1942);
8. orch. (1944); 9. unacc. ch. or str. (1944).
ORCH.: syms.: No.1 (1916), No.2 (1917), Nos. 3 and 4 (1919), No.5
(1920)—Nos. 3, 4, and 5 are a World War I trilogy, subtitled
respectively ‘Guerra’, ‘Vitória’, and ‘Paz’—No.6 (Montanhas do Brasil)
(1944), No.7 (Odisséia da paz) (1945), No.8 (1950), No.9 (1951), No.10
(Sume pater patrium), soloists, ch., orch. (1952), No.11 (1955), No.12
(1957); Suite Suggestive No.1 (1929); 4 Suites, Descrobimento di Brasil
(Discovery of Brazil) (1936-7, 1942); New York Skyline (1940); vc.
concs., No.1 (1915), No.2 (1953); 5 pf. concs. (1945-54); gui. conc.
(1951); hp. conc. (1953); harmonica conc. (1955).
CHAMBER MUSIC: 17 str. qts. (1915-58); 3 pf. trios (1911-18); 4 vn.
sonatas (1912-23); Berceuse (1915); 2 vc. sonatas (1915, 1916); Nonet
(1923); Sextetto mistico (1945).
PIANO: Suite Infantil Nos. 1 and 2 (1912, 1913); A Prole do Bebê Nos. 1
and 2 (The Baby's Family) (1918, 1921); Rudepoema (1921-6, also for pf.
and orch.); Saudades das Selvas Brasileiras (1927).
GUITAR: 12 Études (1928); 5 Preludes (1940)
FROM - http://www.classicalarchives.com/bios/codm/villa-lobos.html
Sarn Dyer
>
>> Peppercorn writes that, around 1917, VL, although impoverished, began
>> buying text books on composition since 'he had been lazy and negligent
>> in former years'. He was troubled, she says, by 'construction, the
>> contrapuntal and thematic treatment'. Also, by the instrumentation.
>>
>> A quick scan didn't find the 'impatience' quote, but probably same
>> difference.
>>
>> SD
>
>
> BTW we should reminder the listener that this is a "lazy" composer who
I think that it was probably exactly that kind of unsubstantiated,
judgmental criticism that resulted in a bad rap, from some quarters, for
Lisa Peppercorn's otherwise useful book.
SD
Greg M. Silverman
>
>> Peppercorn writes that, around 1917, VL, although impoverished, began
>> buying text books on composition since 'he had been lazy and negligent
>> in former years'. He was troubled, she says, by 'construction, the
>> contrapuntal and thematic treatment'. Also, by the instrumentation.
>>
>> A quick scan didn't find the 'impatience' quote, but probably same
>> difference.
>>
>> SD
>
>
> BTW we should reminder the listener that this is a "lazy" composer who
> wrote about 1,000 pieces, including
Wouldn't it have been easier to say he wrote over 2000 works in just
about every conceivable form?
Also, I never said he was lazy! Now you're putting words in my mouth.
Have you even read Peppercorn's book? Apparently Sarn has.
gms--
Olof
Granada barrio with his family, where he also studied at he musical
institute. After playing in Paris in 1924 the whole world came to be
Barrio Segovia. He had a barrio in Barcleona too but left it in 1936
when the spanish civil war started and they stole his music notes.
Sarn Dyer
> Also, I never said he was lazy! Now you're putting words in my mouth.
> Have you even read Peppercorn's book? Apparently Sarn has.
I think Peter was referring to the Lisa Peppercorn quote.
SD
Greg M. Silverman
Sarn,
Thanks for looking up the incident.
However, more along these lines, I also recall reading that he tried to
put formal study into these areas several times throughout his life
without ever getting anywhere. (I may be mistaken, but my memory isn't
that bad yet! ;-)
Peter: I am NOT degrading VL's abilities. I am only referring to what I
have read.
gms--
Greg M. Silverman
Thanks! I also just realized this having reread Peter's response. With
Usenet responses, it's sometimes hard to follow these conversations.
Anyway, I will echo your sentiments: He is mistaken about judging her
work based on that statement, which was taken out of context.
So again, I ask Peter: have you read Peppercorn's book? Apparently not
since you underestimated VL's output by about half.
gms--
Peter Inglis - TWG
> Wouldn't it have been easier to say he wrote over 2000 works in just
> about every conceivable form?
I didn't know the number so I went to the Villa-Lobos Museum site which
didn't have a list I could find - then I found the quoted list at
http://www.classicalarchives.com/bios/codm/villa-lobos.html
> Also, I never said he was lazy! Now you're putting words in my mouth.
He he - is my quoting that bad? Apparently.
I quoted :
"Peppercorn writes that, around 1917, VL, although impoverished, began
buying text books on composition since 'he had been lazy and negligent "
"Peppercorn says" - not "Silverman says"
> Have you even read Peppercorn's book? Apparently Sarn has.
No. And.... ?
These conversations work a heck of a lot better in a coffee shop!
To reiterate - I was adding some background for the benefit of - not the
cognescenti who most often engage in these dialogues - but for what I
imagine may be a large number of silent readers, many of whom will have
__absolutely no idea___ of who Mr. H. Villa-Lobos was.
It would be a shame if their first contact with the name left the
impression of a "lazy composer". That's all !
Peter Inglis - TWG
<snip>> I think that it was probably exactly that kind of unsubstantiated,
> judgmental criticism that resulted in a bad rap, from some quarters, for
> Lisa Peppercorn's otherwise useful book.
I'm confused now, which is not unusual. YOu mean Peppercorn's comments /
criticisms of H-V-L ?
Greg M. Silverman
> Sarn Dyer wrote:
> <snip>> I think that it was probably exactly that kind of unsubstantiated,
>
>> judgmental criticism that resulted in a bad rap, from some quarters,
>> for Lisa Peppercorn's otherwise useful book.
>
>
> I'm confused now, which is not unusual. YOu mean Peppercorn's comments /
> criticisms of H-V-L ?
>
Tee hee! Now you see! Confusion is my epitaph...
Sarn Dyer
Ain't that the truth! ;-)
Yes, Peter, I was referring to the Peppercorn's comments, not Greg's!!
Sarn
Peter Inglis - TWG
>> Peter Inglis - TWG wrote:
>>> I'm confused now, which is not unusual. YOu mean Peppercorn's
>>> comments / criticisms of H-V-L ?
> Yes, Peter, I was referring to the Peppercorn's comments, not Greg's!!
> Sarn
OK all is clear now
Greg M. Silverman
> Sarn Dyer wrote:
>
>>> Peter Inglis - TWG wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm confused now, which is not unusual. YOu mean Peppercorn's
>>>> comments / criticisms of H-V-L ?
>
>
>> Yes, Peter, I was referring to the Peppercorn's comments, not Greg's!!
>> Sarn
>
>
> OK all is clear now
>
Phew, now we can all breath a sigh of relief. ;^)
And yes, if I wasn't clear enough, I was always referring to
Peppercorn's ideas about VL, not my own. Frankly, I think VL was
brilliant. For those out in rmcg land that are not familiar with his
music beyond the guitar stuff and the Bachianas Brasileiras, there is
plenty out there for exploration. The piano music, the string quartets
and the Choros are a great place to start.
gms--
richard c spross
in the Villa-Lobos, Barrios thread.
Richard Spross