Paco Mocks Classical Guitarists

[Alphonsus Jr.]

Beginning at 8:09 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8St0yCiFXg8&feature=BFa&list=PL27737A2309E0B8BB

Discuss.

[himmelhoch]

It's not exactly mocking, but more a colorful way of pointing out a well known foible of the classical guitar approach. He openly admits the well known foible of the flamenco approach in saying that he would accept a fractured sound in order to keep the rhythm accurate. It's a hard balance that recent guitarists are attempting to achieve: accurate rhythm and pure tone at all times.

[Richard Jernigan]

Compare Paco's tone with that of an earlier maestro, Agustin Castellon "Sabicas". Paco credits Sabicas with great influence--but presumably not in the area of tone quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAzK89zkAkw&feature=related

The Sabicas recording adds a bit of reverb, but I heard him in person on numerous occasions, often up close and un-amplified at after hours jam sessions at the night club Zambra in New York, in the early 1960s. Sabicas' tone was always full, resonant and varied. You can hear his vibrato on the linked video.

Sabicas' picado (rapid i-m scale passages) was not quite as quick as Paco's. It was employed with great effect, more rarely than Paco's signature lightning licks.

Sabicas left Spain at the beginning of the Civil War, and lived abroad ever afterward. He was a relatively unknown legend in Spain until the release of his "Flamenco Puro" LP on Hispavox. It was a sensation in Spain. Paco said that when he heard it, he was electrified. He realized "there was a different way of playing the guitar."

Sabicas' rhythm was always as secure and accurate as Paco's, though a bit more flexible. No rhythmic distortions for left hand difficulties. I have always thought that Sabicas' rhythm was strongly influenced by the years he spent accompanying one of the greatest flamenco dancers of all time, Carmen Amaya. His accelerandos and ritardandos always sound danceable to me.

Modern flamencos who pay a lot more attention to tone than Paco include Vicente Amigo and Rafael Riqueni, among others. Perhaps the majority of modern flamenco guitarists strive to emulate Paco's speed--and his relatively un-varied thin and wiry tone. Notable exceptions are the Jerez school, exemplified by its recently deceased leading exponent, Moraito.

BTW, I enjoy Paco's rhythmically accurate take on the Aranjuez, though not to the exclusion of more tone conscious classical players.

RNJ

[Paul Magnussen]

Richard Jernigan wrote:

> Sabicas' picado (rapid i-m scale passages) was not quite as quick as Paco's.

That is the conventional wisdom, certainly. But do we know, on any
particular recording, that Sabas was playing as fast as he possibly
could? Or Paco, for that matter?

Paul Magnussen

[Cactus Wren]

It's probably safe to say that Paco was playing near his top performance speed with the trio. With that much testosterone in the air, how could he have held back?

[Cactus Wren]

By the way, since I have some of you old-timers on the line, here :)

Do you agree with Doug Niedt's comment that Segovia's recordings did not capture his "real" live sound very well, and that Christopher Parkening's recordings give the best approximation to how Segovia sounded?

On Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:10:38 AM UTC-7, Paul Magnussen wrote:

[edspyhill09]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:30:22 AM UTC-5, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:

I agree with him. When playing in a group situation, the rhythm takes precedence over tone. A beautiful note sounded late sounds like crap. Ed S.

[JPD]

On Nov 6, 9:03 am, Richard Jernigan <rnjerni...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Monday, November 5, 2012 11:30:22 PM UTC-6, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:
> > Beginning at 8:09 here:
>

> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8St0yCiFXg8&feature=BFa&list=PL27737A2...

That's a great post and video selection.

A few months ago I played a Miguel Rodriguez flamenco guitar, circa
1960. I've played a few vintage flamencos, but this one made me sound
like Sabicas on Flamenco Puro. (Tone-wise, of course, not facility-
wise or any other wise.) I should have made an offer on it. It's gone
now.

But my point is that you're right on about Sabicas' tone. It's
beautiful.

There was a time in the 70s when Paco seemed more concerned about
getting an evocative tone. Maybe playing amplified with all those
steel string guys in the 80s killed his ear for tone.

[Matt Faunce]

On 11/6/12 11:59 AM, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> On Monday, November 5, 2012 11:30:22 PM UTC-6, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:

> Compare Paco's tone with that of an earlier maestro, Agustin Castellon "Sabicas". Paco credits Sabicas with great influence--but presumably not in the area of tone quality.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAzK89zkAkw&feature=related
>
> The Sabicas recording adds a bit of reverb, but I heard him in person on numerous occasions, often up close and un-amplified at after hours jam sessions at the night club Zambra in New York, in the early 1960s. Sabicas' tone was always full, resonant and varied. You can hear his vibrato on the linked video.
>
> Sabicas' picado (rapid i-m scale passages) was not quite as quick as Paco's. It was employed with great effect, more rarely than Paco's signature lightning licks.
>
> Sabicas left Spain at the beginning of the Civil War, and lived abroad ever afterward. He was a relatively unknown legend in Spain until the release of his "Flamenco Puro" LP on Hispavox. It was a sensation in Spain. Paco said that when he heard it, he was electrified. He realized "there was a different way of playing the guitar."
>

> Sabicas' rhythm was always as secure and accurate as Paco's, though a bit more flexible. No rhythmic distortions for left hand difficulties. I have always thought that Sabicas' rhythm was strongly influenced by the years he spent accompanying one of the greatest flamenco dancers of all time, Carmen Amaya. Hi accelerandos and ritardandos always sound danceable to me.

>
> Modern flamencos who pay a lot more attention to tone than Paco include Vicente Amigo and Rafael Riqueni, among others. Perhaps the majority of modern flamenco guitarists strive to emulate Paco's speed--and his relatively un-varied thin and wiry tone. Notable exceptions are the Jerez school, exemplified by its recently deceased leading exponent, Moraito.
>

> BTW, I enjoy Paco's rhythmic accurate take on the Aranjuez, though not to the exclusion of more tone conscious classical players.
>
> RNJ
>

I didn't know Moraito died. That's sad. He couldn't have been very old
either. OK, I just looked it up. He died a month short of his 55th
birthday. Cancer. Damn! The last friend of mine who died, died of
cancer. That was a rough struggle leading up to his death. ... RIP, Moraito.

Matt

[Richard Jernigan]

Of course we can't know what the ultimate speed of either virtuoso
might be. There is probablyt a margin of safety. As a kid trumpet
player I was advised by professionals to aim for 80% of what I thought
I could really do.

My impression of Sabicas was largely formed by hearing him in person,
Paco by recordings--another source of uncertainty.

RNJ

[Richard Jernigan]

On Nov 6, 11:23 am, Cactus Wren <elegantspanishgui...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> By the way, since I have some of you old-timers on the line, here :)
>
> Do you agree with Doug Niedt's comment that Segovia's recordings did not capture his "real" live sound very well, and that Christopher Parkening's recordings give the best approximation to how Segovia sounded?
>

I only heard Segovia in large halls. My impression was that it didn't
capture Segovia's "real" sound either.

Certainly the Deutsche Gramophon remasterings of the 1950s-60s Decca
recordings sound much better than the original LPs, or the first CDs
made from the tapes. I've still got the LPs, mostly in excellent
condition, and have made A/B comparisons on a good system, since I was
struck by how much better the Deutsche Gramophon CDs sounded.

As you might expect, the sound quality of the recordings from the
1920s-30s is not as good as those of the 1050s-60s.

RNJ

[Paul Magnussen]

Cactus Wren wrote:
> By the way, since I have some of you old-timers on the line, here :)
>
> Do you agree with Doug Niedt's comment that Segovia's recordings did not capture his "real" live sound very well, and that Christopher Parkening's recordings give the best approximation to how Segovia sounded?

No.

Paul Magnussen

[David Raleigh Arnold]

It's too much for *some* recent guitarists, not those who
have included DGT in their practice. Regards, daveA

--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: d.raleig...@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:23:02 -0800, Cactus Wren wrote:

> By the way, since I have some of you old-timers on the line, here :)
>
> Do you agree with Doug Niedt's comment that Segovia's recordings did not
> capture his "real" live sound very well, and that Christopher
> Parkening's recordings give the best approximation to how Segovia
> sounded?

It is absolutely not true of CP's records before meeting Segovia. I
just can't see comparing live with recorded at all. Regards, daveA

[Richard Jernigan]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:38:24 PM UTC-6, JPD wrote:

>
> A few months ago I played a Miguel Rodriguez flamenco guitar, circa
>
> 1960. I've played a few vintage flamencos, but this one made me sound
>
> like Sabicas on Flamenco Puro. (Tone-wise, of course, not facility-
>
> wise or any other wise.) I should have made an offer on it. It's gone
>
> now.
>

My wife gave me a '67 Ramirez 1a blanca, new. It was the first good guitar I had. It taught me a lot. I have played few flamencas that I like better. One that I did like better was a friend's 1973 media luna Conde blanca, but not enough better to think of selling the Ramirez. Condes were notoriously variable in the '70s.

When I spent time in the early 1960s hearing Sabicas at after-hours jam sessions, I was too ignorant to know what guitar he was playing. One thing for sure though, it wasn't a Ramirez. I would have recognized that.

The last time I heard Sabicas in person was in the front row at a concert in the summer of 1965. The program said he was playing an Arcangel Fernandez. The headstock on the blanca checked out. Un-amplified it sounded really, really great.

By 2000 I had acquired a little money. Brian Cohen came up with an '82 Arcangel blanca in pristine condition. I asked Richard Brune to appraise it. He said he really liked it. Lotta dough in 2000, but the week after I bought it I got offers from Japan for 25% more than I had paid.

When the guitar finally arrived in the Marshall Islands, I took it out of the case, tuned it up and played a rasqueado. It knocked my socks off. It was head and shoulders above the Ramirez--for me at least.

I thought, "Now I'll sound more like Sabicas." I thought I did.

Then YouTube started up. I started seeing Sabicas in later life playing a Ramirez just like mine! Jose III's marketing campaign marched steadily ahead! But Sabicas still sounded like Sabicas.

I still like the Arcangel better than any other flamenca I have played. And my kids won't be sad that I bought it when I'm gone.

Grisha plays some Sabicas stuff on his Devoe spruce/cypress. We sat about six feet away from him at a house concert a few weeks ago. He sounded magnificent, really good--though not exactly like Tio Sabas.

RNJ

[JPD]

I had a student a few years ago with a '61 Ramirez flamenco. It was a
kick to play. Ballsy, fast, growly. I also played Mariano Cordoba's
Esteso a few times, but I was too inexperienced to appreciate it. This
was 40 years ago. I'd drop in on his gig when my gig was finished and
sometimes he'd hand me the guitar. (He used to tell me to play harder.
I had -- and still have -- a soft touch. It didn't show off his guitar
very well.)

Later on, when I was a regular fixture with Anita Scheer and the San
Jose Flamenco Society (or whatever it was called), quite a few top-
notch flamencas passed through my hands.

But none ever made me sound like Sabicas on Flamenco Puro. Only the
Fernandez has ever done that.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda.

[JPD]

Only the Rodriguez, I meant.