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Torres domed soundboards

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Tashi

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Dec 15, 2009, 3:47:07 PM12/15/09
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If there are any guitar makers on this chatline, I have a question.
What does Romanillios mean when he describes Torres soundboards as
being "domed"? Does this mean the bridge sits at the crest of the
dome, or does this mean simply that Torres bridges were arched, thus
providing an arch in the area of the bridge only, and not the actual
top itself?

Please discuss.

RobMac

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Dec 15, 2009, 4:53:07 PM12/15/09
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I don't know if you will be able to read this thread from the Delcamp
Forum - I'm sure you won't be able to see the photos - if you are not
a member, but there is a developing discussion of just this topic:

<http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46141>

Rob

Charlie

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Dec 15, 2009, 5:07:16 PM12/15/09
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Michael, I've no idea if this will help your or not, but i checked out my
guitar, made by Ron Pinkham of Woodsound Studio, Glen Cove, ME.

My bridge is domed, but it's not domed at the highest point of the dome, the
actual high point lays 1.5 inches or less below the bridge. I presume the
doming of the bridge is built into it in as much as it is quite noticeable.
In fact, I don't believe that the bridge would dome as much as it does
unless it was built into it.

That said, I'm not sure Pinkham planned this in copying Romanillos or not.
I read your post and remembered realizing at some point that this instrument
is domed. Like I mentioned, I've no idea if this helps you or not but ,
well, maybe it does.

I can tell you that this guitar has a very balanced tone with a crisp treble
side and a non percussive base. It has fan bracing.

Charlie

Charlie


"Tashi" <dewach...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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John J van Gool

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Dec 15, 2009, 7:24:00 PM12/15/09
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I also work with a domed soundboard. The doming is in the soundboard itself
from the bar behind the soundhole to the end of it as in the Torres and
Romanillos guitars. It is also domed from right to left. Because of this
dome you have to do the bridge as well.

Regards,

John J van Gool, luthier
http://www.lutherie-van-gool.nl


Richard Jernigan

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Dec 15, 2009, 8:17:50 PM12/15/09
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Romanillos' book on torres is here

http://tinyurl.com/y8snrah

on books.google.com

On page 113 he discusses doming in detail. According to Romanillos in
summary, Torres used a scooped solera and shaped the struts, harmonic
bars and solid lining to produce a fully domed top, not just an arched
bridge.

RNJ

Olegario

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Dec 16, 2009, 12:06:44 AM12/16/09
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On Dec 15, 4:24 pm, "John J van Gool" <jv.g...@lutherie-van-gool.nl>
wrote:

John,
In order to get the best coupling, is there a good technique for
getting the base of the bridge to perfectly match the domed top?
Thanks in advance, Olegario

Steverino

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Dec 16, 2009, 1:55:59 AM12/16/09
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Tashi,
I believe that Jose means the just the part of the soundboard below
the waist.
The upper bout on on his own (recent) instruments is flat.
Viewed from the side, the from the waist down to the center of the
bridge is also flat. It drops to the end of the guitar from there
about 5mm.
Here is a view from the side:
http://ganzguitars.com/mnillos/slides/orig_Image014.html

Viewed from the end of the guitar, the soundboard bridge is arched
about 3mm at the at the level of the bridge.

The workboard rises from the area just in front of the bridge ....
toward the butt and the hips just below the waist.

Here is a picture of a such a workboard.
http://ganzguitars.com/workboard/ljrboard2.jpg

The sides are built around the top, which is cut to exact size and
shape before it goes onto the workboard.
And after the guitar comes out of the rig, it looks like this....
http://ganzguitars.com/JK/jimK/P5280383.JPG

You can see how much the top is domed from the protruding sides....
Did Torres do it that way?
No jigs remain. However, that is Jose's conception of the top....
which I think gets to your question.
I hope that's clear enough. Let me know if you have followups.
Steve Ganz(anillos)

Tashi

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Dec 16, 2009, 10:12:45 AM12/16/09
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Thanks Rob, I took a look at that , but it seemed more to do with the
Tornovoz than doming the soundboard.

Tashi

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Dec 16, 2009, 10:21:05 AM12/16/09
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On Dec 15, 5:24 pm, "John J van Gool" <jv.g...@lutherie-van-gool.nl>
wrote:

John, I make only domed tops, and use a dished out form as well. I
was just doing some reading up on Torres, and while I was familiar
with what Romanilios writes about how Torres domed his tops I came
across another book that stated Torres achieved the dome by simply
gluing an arched bridge to a flat top. I thought to myself this is
not what I call domed, so I was wondering more about the terminology
of "domed" tops, versus simply an arched top.

Tashi

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Dec 16, 2009, 10:44:38 AM12/16/09
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On Dec 15, 11:55 pm, Steverino <shhga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tashi,
> I believe that Jose means the just the part of the soundboard below
> the waist.
> The upper bout on on his own (recent) instruments is flat.
> Viewed from the side, the from the waist down to the center of the
> bridge is also flat.  It drops to the end of the guitar from there
> about 5mm.
> Here is a view from the side:http://ganzguitars.com/mnillos/slides/orig_Image014.html
>
> Viewed from the end of the guitar, the soundboard bridge is arched
> about 3mm at the at the level of the bridge.
>
> The workboard rises  from the area just in front of the bridge ....
> toward the butt and the hips just below the waist.
>
> Here is a picture of a such a workboard.http://ganzguitars.com/workboard/ljrboard2.jpg

>
> The sides are built around the top, which is cut to exact size and
> shape before it goes onto the workboard.
> And after the guitar comes out of the rig, it looks like this....http://ganzguitars.com/JK/jimK/P5280383.JPG

>
> You can see how much the top is domed from the protruding sides....
> Did Torres do it that way?
> No jigs remain.  However, that is Jose's conception of the top....
> which I think gets to your question.
> I hope that's clear enough.  Let me know if you have followups.
> Steve Ganz(anillos)
>
> On Dec 15, 12:47 pm, Tashi <dewachen1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > If there are any guitar makers on this chatline, I have a question.
> > What does Romanillios mean when he describes Torres soundboards as
> > being "domed"?  Does this mean the bridge sits at the crest of the
> > dome, or does this mean simply that Torres bridges were arched, thus
> > providing an arch in the area of the bridge only, and not the actual
> > top itself?
>
> >  Please discuss.

Steve thanks! Very interesting! I haven't built guitars in the
Spanish style for 30 years, unless one conceders Fleta building in the
Spanish style. Romanillios classifies Fleta, and Freidrich as French
in style.

I to use a dished out form, which is domed only in the lower bout as
you describe, however, I've never see this method that you use before,
very interesting and it makes a lot of sense, if you build in the
Spanish style.

I've never examined a Torres before, but I have made detailed plans
of a 37 Santos. Santos also domed his tops. It always mystified me
as to how Santos ( who used continuous solid linings) was able to pre
shape the sides with the linings already glued in to fit the domed
top, very difficult and time consuming.

It seems that your method only works if you use the
"tetelonies" (sp?) , but Torres used this method only on a handful of
his guitars, the vast majority had continuous kerfed linings, or am I
missing something?

Tashi

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Dec 16, 2009, 10:49:52 AM12/16/09
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Thanks Richard, I have that book. Yesterday I went to "La Chozas" for
lunch had enchiladas with red chile, and read through Romanlios book
on Torres, to get a refresher on this.

To bad there isn't a better book written on this genius we call
Torres.

Steverino

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Dec 16, 2009, 1:45:21 PM12/16/09
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This method works with kerfed linings, gluing in sections between the
harmonic bars and at the deflection point in the lower bout. (Done
that 1 time.) I'm not sure about the dentelones being rare. There
are pictures of both in the "the book". The separate little teeth add
two to three hours to a guitar. Might they be worth it?

I also don't always build in the spanish style. I often build the
body separately from the neck. I only started with the spanish style
with Jose, and while I love it, I still build more with the neck
separate method.

I don't think that there is any one individual who has seen more
Torres guitars than Jose. . I'd guess that there are a few who might
come close in the number of Torres guitars inspected, but being able
(and willing) to write about it....another thing entirely! His books
are a team effort between him and his wife Marian.

Here is an interesting idea.
Let's buy a single Torres guitar, deconstruct it, write about it.
Sell that guitar. Repeat.
Publish after several guitars.

SG

Tashi

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Dec 16, 2009, 2:22:14 PM12/16/09
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Without looking it up, I believe out of all Torres guitars, maybe
five or six had Tentelones, as I remember from reading yesterday
Romanillos's Torres book.

> I also don't always build in the spanish style.  I often build the
> body separately from the neck.  I only started with the spanish style
> with Jose, and while I love it, I still build more with the neck
> separate method.

Ha Ha , now I want to try the Spanish method for a change. Just on
the Torres style guitars though. I still have reservations about the
Spanish method.

> I don't think that there is any one individual who has seen more
> Torres guitars than Jose.  .  I'd guess that there are a few who might
> come close in the number of Torres guitars inspected, but being able
> (and willing) to write about it....another thing entirely!  His books
> are a team effort between him and his wife Marian.

Defiantly a good thing, but compared to the quality of books written
on Stradvari, Rominillios falls short of a scholarly work, someone
needs to pick up where he left off.


>
> Here is an interesting idea.
> Let's buy a single Torres guitar, deconstruct it, write about it.
> Sell that guitar.  Repeat.
> Publish after  several guitars.
>
> SG

I don't think you will find anyone willing to do that.

Message has been deleted

John LaCroix

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Dec 17, 2009, 9:58:02 AM12/17/09
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I built my first few guitars with a dished out solera as Romanillos
described but now dome the entire top. I cut a 25' radius dish into a
1/8" piece of MDF, and cut out the plantilla so that the peak of the
dome is between the bridge and the soundhole (closer to the bridge).
This dish was then attached to a standard solera. I end up having to
make a wedge to fill under the fingerboard extension, but I like the
look of a completely domed top. I got the Idea from Al Carruth, but
wanted to adapt it for spanish method building.

John L.

Tashi

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Dec 17, 2009, 10:49:10 AM12/17/09
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What do you think you gain by continuing the dome into the upper bout?

John LaCroix

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Dec 17, 2009, 1:04:58 PM12/17/09
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Two things. Slight elevation under the FB extension makes the higher
frets more accessible (not as much as a raised FB, though), and
Aesthetically I like the look. It always struck me with Al's guitars
how elegant they look, and I think the domed top is definitely a
factor.

edspyhill01

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Dec 17, 2009, 11:52:43 PM12/17/09
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> SG- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

SG,

If a CG is not built in the Spanish style, does that mean it is built
similar to a streel string guitar with a neck block that uses either a
dovetail or a mortise & tenon joint?

John LaCroix

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Dec 18, 2009, 8:18:15 AM12/18/09
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> dovetail or a mortise & tenon joint?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes.

edspyhill01

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Dec 18, 2009, 8:36:31 AM12/18/09
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Thanks.

Steverino

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Dec 28, 2009, 3:55:23 AM12/28/09
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Ed,
Essentially yes. (Although many steel string luthiers also build in
the spanish style, that is less common than separate body and neck in
steel string guitars.)
SG

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