Maria Elena (Los Indios Tabajaras) by Masatoshi

[Che]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fLn8Q3YjCGs#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPA6Dd3YCpk

The N.Y. Times search will not go back this far:

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/25/arts/recordings-los-indios-open-a-new-chapter-in-a-family-saga.html


I was studying with Nato Lima when he made the "Banjo and Fiddle" by William Krull arrangement. Wasn't interested in playing it but sure learned how to make tunings work for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcxwZUQZ6DM

Banjo and Fiddle is the best-known work by American violinist, teacher, and chamber music player William Kroll (1901-1980). This virtuoso piece, strongly influenced by traditional American styles of folk fiddle playing, was popularized by regular inclusion in the recitals of Jascha Heifetz and Fritz Kreisler. Opening with a series of banjo-like pizzicato chords over a "romp-till ready" style accompaniment, the violinist soon launches into the main theme, set in a characteristic popular idiom. There is a dreamily reflective passage midway through, but for the greater part, this is a spirited and energetic virtuoso miniature that exploits multiple stopping and ricochet bowing techniques, often at very rapid speeds. Banjo and Fiddle is particularly effective as an encore piece, and hence it perfectly fit the bill for the "lollipops" featured after more heavyweight fare during Heifetz's recitals. Kroll himself was no mean fiddler, either. Born in New York, he studied with Henri Marteau in Berlin before making his successful U.S. debut in 1915. Kroll learned his trade as a quartet leader under Franz Kneisel and became first violinist of the Coolidge Quartet in 1936. He also traveled widely as a soloist, devoting much of his life to teaching before founding his own quartet in 1944. In his late sixties, he formed a duo partnership with Artur Balsam, but Kroll is chiefly remembered for this one delightful and entertaining piece. ~ Michael Jameson, Rovi

[dsi1]

On 5/11/2013 11:27 PM, Che wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fLn8Q3YjCGs#!

I love that song - it's like a freakin' time machine that takes me back
to the early 60s.

[Che]

On Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:13:30 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
> On 5/11/2013 11:27 PM, Che wrote:
>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fLn8Q3YjCGs#!
>
>
>
> I love that song - it's like a freakin' time machine that takes me back
>
> to the early 60s.<

You and me both, Ho'mme in Obamastan.

Che'

[thomas]

Did Los Indios use a scalloped fretboard? Because that's some wild vibrato.

[dsi1]

On 5/13/2013 8:19 AM, thomas wrote:
> Did Los Indios use a scalloped fretboard? Because that's some wild vibrato.
>

Nato Lima could make me cry with a single note - must be some kind of
jungle magic.

[Che]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 1:19:16 PM UTC-5, thomas wrote:
> Did Los Indios use a scalloped fretboard? Because that's some wild vibrato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdYF5gZckmk&mode=related&search=

Nato had 26 guitars when I knew him. Yes, he had a few scalloped necks.

Maria Elena was recorded with a Del Vecchio nylon string resonator guitar.

http://www.delvecchio.com.br/

Abe Rivera, from Spain, moved to NYC to build guitars for them.

http://www.mcgillguitars.com/newmcgillhtml/main_guitar_sub_reso.htm

Che'

[Che]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 1:19:16 PM UTC-5, thomas wrote:

> Did Los Indios use a scalloped fretboard? Because that's some wild vibrato.

I learned Nato's vibrato. Sila Godoy said "That's a neurotic vibrato. . .do it again."

Used very sparingly it's highly effective.

[thomas]

I'm wondering how you would get that wide a vibrato without a scallop. Would have to be across the fretboard BB King-style, right?

[Che]

Dr. Thomas, we no longer live in the "Information Age." Quietly, we moved into the "It Depends Age." Nothing like BB's Butterfly, remember that's steel strings and electric guitar. It depends on the guitar, your setup, strings, what your ears demand and techniques.

Super High tension strings are difficult to manipulate, trill, etc. Also, once you can do a thing and have the *feel to the bone* for it it seems you can almost do it at will. Meaning, pulling the string(s) is not always the answer.

You observed Nato's "Pitch" video right, the chords? I consider some things proprietary information here in the Barnyard, for obvious reasons :-)

I will say this, watch Ida Presti on the last video I posted of her's and realize you can break the law. . .I sometimes would stop a note with two right hand fingers, dominating and controlling the fret space. Another factor is controlling the speed(s) of the vibratos. The most basic way to do this is stopping A on the 2nd. string with 2. In this position the heel of your left hand is in position to bump against the lower bout. Use a metronome and make a distinct bump against the lower bout as you slowly count out the vibratos. You want a range but slow, moderate and fast is a good start.

I'm sure some duffus who's read all the world's guitar methods is going to directly contradict this, WTF, Figure it out yourself. . .or ask Larry Whine Deack, there are no secrets.

The lighter you stop strings, sometimes, make them easier to vibrate, jes' depends. Most people use entirely too much string pressure or guitars setup for maximum volume = string height. It's a sometimey world and it all depends.

Che'

[dsi1]

Classical guitarists these days don't seem to be into vibrato. They
prefer the bright, snappy, attack that comes with high tension strings.
OTOH, if you're a blues guitarist, you'd better be well-versed in
vibrato. My favorite trick was to bend up a whole step and add vibrato
on top of that - sometimes bending higher to for extra laughs.

I don't know what Nato Lima was doing but you can get an old-timey,
nostalgic, sound by simply loosening the strings down a whole step. This
will mellow out the attack and make getting a great vibrato easier. Have
fun!

[Che]

Ramon Montoya did that (Whole tone down)in the 1910 recordings with La Nina de los Peines, think Carlos Montoya did it, sometimes. I did it at home practicing a lot to lessen left hand work. . ear adjusts to D or capo up. You can use La Bella golden trebles and Savarez red card bass for less tension at 440. but you've been around Slackers. . .wouldn't you know, speaking of Slackers, here's some Slackmenco or Spamenco Con Milonga

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XOui_UafXPQ#!

It takes a bit for them to get into it.

[dsi1]

On 5/13/2013 2:42 PM, Che wrote:
>
> Ramon Montoya did that (Whole tone down)in the 1910 recordings with La Nina de los Peines, think Carlos Montoya did it, sometimes. I did it at home practicing a lot to lessen left hand work. . ear adjusts to D or capo up. You can use La Bella golden trebles and Savarez red card bass for less tension at 440. but you've been around Slackers. . .wouldn't you know, speaking of Slackers, here's some Slackmenco or Spamenco Con Milonga
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XOui_UafXPQ#!
>
> It takes a bit for them to get into it.
>

Interesting. I have not heard of Jeff Peterson before. I will keep an
ear out for him. Thanks!

Oh man, you haoles is better players than da local guys! That's the
breaks. Barry Flanagan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8mCjkA6wQ4

[Che]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 8:23:19 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
> On 5/13/2013 2:42 PM, Che wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Ramon Montoya did that (Whole tone down)in the 1910 recordings with La Nina de los Peines, think Carlos Montoya did it, sometimes. I did it at home practicing a lot to lessen left hand work. . ear adjusts to D or capo up. You can use La Bella golden trebles and Savarez red card bass for less tension at 440. but you've been around Slackers. . .wouldn't you know, speaking of Slackers, here's some Slackmenco or Spamenco Con Milonga

>
> >
>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XOui_UafXPQ#!
>
> >
>
> > It takes a bit for them to get into it.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Interesting. I have not heard of Jeff Peterson before. I will keep an
>
> ear out for him. Thanks!
>
>
>

> Oh man, you haoles.

YOU HAOLES!!!!, Pleaassee... We are Haolenesians, Mr. Ching Chong!

This local boy did o.k., Keola Beamer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dIMfaBhZVc

[Che]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=PgjdkihDuEo

Rare Flamenco Guitar Video: Carlos Montoya - Farruca

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=cv2Fyjk0GGM&feature=endscreen

Example of tuning down a whole step and using a capo.

[thomas]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 5:51:13 PM UTC-4, Che wrote:
>
> You observed Nato's "Pitch" video right, the chords? I consider some things proprietary information here in the Barnyard, for obvious reasons :-)
>

Yes, ty. I observed a scalloped fretboard and a violin-style vibrato. I listened to a bunch of other Tabajaras recordings on yt and heard a wide, almost steel-guitar vibrato and pitch bend. I conclude that he used that scalloped fretboard on a bunch of records.

> I will say this, watch Ida Presti on the last video I posted of her's and realize you can break the law. . .I sometimes would stop a note with two right hand fingers, dominating and controlling the fret space.>

Clearly vibrato was extremely important to Lima. I'd bet he had a good one even sans scallops.

<Another factor is controlling the speed(s) of the vibratos. The most basic way to do this is stopping A on the 2nd. string with 2. In this position the heel of your left hand is in position to bump against the lower bout. Use a metronome and make a distinct bump against the lower bout as you slowly count out the vibratos. You want a range but slow, moderate and fast is a good start.
>

Good exercise, tnx. I know that wind players do these, but I've never heard of a guitarist advocating them. It's a good idea.

>
> The lighter you stop strings, sometimes, make them easier to vibrate, jes' depends. Most people use entirely too much string pressure or guitars setup for maximum volume = string height. It's a sometimey world and it all depends.
>

Thanks again, senor. I will have to explore this. Never thought about it before.

[Che]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:09:56 AM UTC-5, thomas wrote:
> On Monday, May 13, 2013 5:51:13 PM UTC-4, Che wrote:
>
> >
>
> > You observed Nato's "Pitch" video right, the chords? I consider some things proprietary information here in the Barnyard, for obvious reasons :-)
>
> >
>
>
>
> Yes, ty. I observed a scalloped fretboard and a violin-style vibrato. I listened to a bunch of other Tabajaras recordings on yt and heard a wide, almost steel-guitar vibrato and pitch bend. I conclude that he used that scalloped fretboard on a bunch of records.<

In the Clouds I have all the data on which guitars he used for different recording. You have to understand, Nato was on topic 24/7, he was also the highest paid guitarist in the world. Segovia *came* to see him. . .long story but in the archives here.

>
>
>
> > I will say this, watch Ida Presti on the last video I posted of her's and realize you can break the law. . .I sometimes would stop a note with two right hand fingers, dominating and controlling the fret space.>
>
>
>
> Clearly vibrato was extremely important to Lima. I'd bet he had a good one even sans scallops.<

Yes sir! There are drawbacks to scalloped fingerboards, particularly with the 1st. string. Bear in mind, Nato was a melodic guitarist, his brother supported him with chords, as a rule. We, solo guitarist, have to do it all. It's easy to slip off the 1st. string on a scalloped fingerboard, especially on fast runs!!!

>
>
>
> <Another factor is controlling the speed(s) of the vibratos. The most basic way to do this is stopping A on the 2nd. string with 2. In this position the heel of your left hand is in position to bump against the lower bout. Use a metronome and make a distinct bump against the lower bout as you slowly count out the vibratos. You want a range but slow, moderate and fast is a good start.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Good exercise, tnx. I know that wind players do these, but I've never heard of a guitarist advocating them. It's a good idea.<

Learning that, Nato's vibrato requires personal oversight and learning by transmission. Think about it, Nato's wife learned to play and replaced his brother when he retired, IN TWO YEARS!!! But that was damned near 24/7, locked up in that 9th' floor apartment in the West 50's. Watch his brother play closely, No wasted movement, Nada! You also have to take into account their times, and the fact they were light years away from your average CG'er in America. Interestingly, they were in closer contact with the C&W players, Chet Atkins, Muriel Anderson, various studio players . . .to include Chet Baker.

>
>
>
> >
>
> > The lighter you stop strings, sometimes, make them easier to vibrate, jes' depends. Most people use entirely too much string pressure or guitars setup for maximum volume = string height. It's a sometimey world and it all depends.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Thanks again, senor. I will have to explore this. Never thought about it before.<

Too bad you're not here and we didn't connect when you were. You recall, I had your office phone number and knew that place pretty well. I thought about dropping by your office . . .then again, I thought you might have a heart attack if I did. See, that's the difference. . .I went to great efforts to find those guys that played like I wanted to play.

Try getting out of your normal thought patterns when developing your vibrato.
It's impossible to explain, at least for me, imo. Think in terms of a solid materials (String) malleability (and can be) plastically deformed (vibrato.)

I used an opera sopranos voice I loved (from Madam Butterfly) on a recording to match my vibrato with her's. . .then I went to see her in NYC.

I sent enough data and information in one or two emails as it took me years to acquire. I say, put your big boy pants on and go see those guitars maybe meet a few working class guitarist...Oh, I forgot to include Jerry Reed, but he's dead now.

Good luck,

Che'

[Paul Magnussen]

I always liked that publicity story about how they accidentally came
across a discarded guitar in the jungle. Already tuned up, and with a
plectrum strapped in it, of course...

Paul Magnussen

[Che]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:15:37 AM UTC-5, Paul Magnussen wrote:


> I always liked that publicity story.

Well. . .that's New York City and many folks were naive enough to believe it.
I did as a kid in backwater Corpus Christi, Tx.

Now there was an interview you could have really sank your teeth into.

[dsi1]

On 5/13/2013 4:36 PM, Che wrote:
> YOU HAOLES!!!!, Pleaassee... We are Haolenesians, Mr. Ching Chong!
>
> This local boy did o.k., Keola Beamer:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dIMfaBhZVc
>

It's a good tune. Not too difficult. The tuning is Keola's own - CGDGBE.
I believe it reflects his classical guitar background. It's a tuning
that CG players use for Spanish pieces except that he drops the E string
down to C instead of D. Most people can't imagine doing that but it
works. The slack key guy that I talked to was somewhat puzzled that the
first string is tuned to E instead of D. That just ain't done around here.

Keola doesn't play like other slack key guys - again, that's probably
due to his classical training. My assumption is that his teacher was my
teacher but I may be wrong.

Oddly enough, I believe that it's Jeff Peterson playing the steel string
with Keola. Keola's arrangement of Imi Au la Oe is completely different
from all the others. For all practical purposes, it's a original tune.

[thomas]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:58:42 AM UTC-4, Che wrote:
>
> Too bad you're not here and we didn't connect when you were. You recall, I had your office phone number and knew that place pretty well. I thought about dropping by your office . . .then again, I thought you might have a heart attack if I did.>

I had a great office. Brand new building. One entire wall was glass, overlooking the lake and the woods. But I was never there because of the bad vibes. That institution is an evil place, and I am so happy to be gone. Now I get to work with decent, intelligent human beings -- and I still have an office with a window.

>See, that's the difference. . .I went to great efforts to find those guys that played like I wanted to play.
>

I was like that in my early 20s, and sought out the best jazz players.

> I used an opera sopranos voice I loved (from Madam Butterfly) on a recording to match my vibrato with her's. . .then I went to see her in NYC.
>

Apparently Louis Armstrong modeled his vibrato on Enrico Caruso's records.

[Che]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:17:52 PM UTC-5, thomas wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:58:42 AM UTC-4, Che wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Too bad you're not here and we didn't connect when you were. You recall, I had your office phone number and knew that place pretty well. I thought about dropping by your office . . .then again, I thought you might have a heart attack if I did.>
>
>
>
> I had a great office. Brand new building. One entire wall was glass, overlooking the lake and the woods. But I was never there because of the bad vibes. That institution is an evil place, and I am so happy to be gone.<

I told you that it was a Unhappy Fat Bitch Heaven with a pompous director.

Now I get to work with decent, intelligent human beings -- and I still have an office with a window.<

It's always location, location, location and a good view counts.

>
>
>
> >See, that's the difference. . .I went to great efforts to find those guys that played like I wanted to play.
>
> >
>
>
>
> I was like that in my early 20s, and sought out the best jazz players.<

>
>
>
> > I used an opera sopranos voice I loved (from Madam Butterfly) on a recording to match my vibrato with her's. . .then I went to see her in NYC.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Apparently Louis Armstrong modeled his vibrato on Enrico Caruso's records.<

I didn't know that!


Here's something that may interest you after our recent candy azz guitar music invasion: http://www.mauriziocolonna.com/audio.html Go to "El Prado" The electronics have improved so much since my times I might go for it.

Che'

[thomas]

On Monday, May 13, 2013 5:51:13 PM UTC-4, Che wrote:
>

> Dr. Thomas, we no longer live in the "Information Age." Quietly, we moved into the "It Depends Age." Nothing like BB's Butterfly, remember that's steel strings and electric guitar. It depends on the guitar, your setup, strings, what your ears demand and techniques.
>
> Super High tension strings are difficult to manipulate, trill, etc. Also, once you can do a thing and have the *feel to the bone* for it it seems you can almost do it at will. Meaning, pulling the string(s) is not always the answer.
>
> You observed Nato's "Pitch" video right, the chords? I consider some things proprietary information here in the Barnyard, for obvious reasons :-)
>

Reviewing that Chopin video again, he seems to be bending the string sharp and then releasing it to pitch, across the fretboard more than up and down the fretboard. His pitch envelope has a lot more air above the pitch than below the pitch, unlike, say, a violinist's vibrato. I wonder if he ever tried a fretless guitar?

[Che]

If look closely at violinist's vibrato you'll note they use finger, hand, and whole arm vibratos. What Nato used most often is what he called the romantic or wide vibrato. Vibrato is different for different fingers due to the different angles the fingers approach the string. This subject gets as complex as free and rest strokes, in a heartbeat. For example, the left hand thumb needs to maintain contact with the neck but never inhibit the free movement of the finger(s) hand. The fleshly part of the thumb moves easily so keep it relaxed.
In some cases you'll want the first joint of the finger to relax and flex with the vibrato. If it's too much pressure or fixed it hinders the wide vibrato.

Notice your left hand finger pads and exactly where the indentations mark the contact points. . .on the 4th. finger it can be diagonal, it's a weak finger and most often call for. . .still following me here?

I've seen guitarist watch it for hours, up close and not be able to detect exactly what I was doing. This was not because I held information but due to their own "mind forged manacles" and tension. To play and ingrain some notions for years in your thinking/feeling of how to do a thing limits our capacity to understand them any other way, imo.

Notice Pepe Romero, he will end a phrase 9 times out of 10 with some sort of vibrato in Spanish music. I used to do finger exercises off the guitar I learned from violinist at old Weavers Violin Shop on F St. in D.C. I worked there when Joe Wallo built my guitar. Seldom do we hear of these kinds of Ex.

Hold your left hand up sideways, now flex you fingertips, and only your finger tips, down. You may be too old and stiff to do this now. If so hold the finger just below that first joint and flex it. Now do it fast, work on it, keep a notebook.

Note with Ida Presti, how immediate and intense she is, stinging the string(s).
The B.B. King Butterfly is on steel strings, much easier and keep this thought, butterflies make nothing, bees make honey.

It's also important to place scales with absolutely no vibrato. Some we hear here have a sorta' constant vibrato that precludes having a real vibrato. It boils down to having control of your hand, or not.

When you play some music you don't want any vibrato, then again, in Romantic vibrato it's often essential. Sometimes I would focus maybe on only one or two notes for that neurotic vibrato.

Recall that 2nd. string "A" vibrato Ex. I gave you? It's using the 2 finger. I'd focus on that because it's the most balanced for the hand and easy to traverse the full width of the finger pad. With the first finger, is that 1 St, joint flexing? I'll bet not.

This is something that really can't be well explained in chit-chat and general terms.

Did Nato have a fretless guitar? No, none that I recall but I'm sure he knew about them. Nato was well plugged into Nashville guitarist. He was a better teacher than he realized. There were things about that style I didn't care for but it was crucial that I understood my own misconceptions. Assumptions and notions I made from hearing "Maria Elena" subject as a kid.

You could write a small book about vibrato an I could talk for hours about do's and don'ts. . .to what purpose. I have given you a lot of information. I have not idea of what you have received.

Che'

[conec...@gmail.com]

>
>
>
> I don't know what Nato Lima was doing but you can get an old-timey,
>
> nostalgic, sound by simply loosening the strings down a whole step. This
>
> will mellow out the attack and make getting a great vibrato easier. Have
>
> fun!

Hi DSI,

I am guitar maker Paul McGill.

Nato Lima was a very close friend for 15 years.

The scallops on the edge of his fretboards where there for hammer offs. He would pull down and release the high E string by exploiting the added relief, It also eases stress when baring chords. Nato did most of his vibrato on the B string. He used the added space to pull the string towards the edge of the fret board.

He did not tune his guitar down to achieve vibrato. Los Indios featured a high tuned guitar. Tuned up to F# on both E strings. The lower guitar was tuned down to Ab. The bass guitar was strung with an over sized 6th string tuned an octave below the 5th string tuned down to Ab.

Nato played the higher guitar.

[conec...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:15:37 AM UTC-5, Paul Magnussen wrote:

I do not know what was publicized, but the guitar belonged to a soldier. There was a civil war going on in the jungles of NE Brazil in the late 20's. Nato and one of his brothers where snooping around breaking the rules of the tribe. They spooked the soldiers who had lit a fire. They ran off leaving the guitar.

There is a long story about it all, to much to relate here.

Nato had many stories but the discovery of civilization was part of this tale and he was very clear about the events of that time.

Pal McGill

[conec...@gmail.com]

Maria Elena was recoded on a Del Vecchio Classical guitar, not a resonator.

Pau McGill

[conec...@gmail.com]

Like I wrote earlier, he vibrato ed the B string. He pulled off on the E string using the scallops for relief.

Paul McGill

[Paul Magnussen]

Well now, that's very interesting, thanks.

I'd always assumed that story was just the usual marketroid babble, like
Tab Hunter's romances with his leading ladies.

Of course, if the guitar had only been abandoned 15 minute beforehand,
that puts a different complexion on the matter.

Paul Magnussen

[dsi1]

On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:26:35 PM UTC-10, conec...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I don't know what Nato Lima was doing but you can get an old-timey,
>
> >
>
> > nostalgic, sound by simply loosening the strings down a whole step. This
>
> >
>
> > will mellow out the attack and make getting a great vibrato easier. Have
>
> >
>
> > fun!
>
>
>
> Hi DSI,
>
>
>
> I am guitar maker Paul McGill.
>
>
>
> Nato Lima was a very close friend for 15 years.
>
>
>
> The scallops on the edge of his fretboards where there for hammer offs. He would pull down and release the high E string by exploiting the added relief, It also eases stress when baring chords. Nato did most of his vibrato on the B string. He used the added space to pull the string towards the edge of the fret board.
>

Thanks for the info. I have a scalloped fretboard but don't care much for the feel of it. A partial scallop sounds like a good idea though. I'll have to try that.

>
>
> He did not tune his guitar down to achieve vibrato. Los Indios featured a high tuned guitar. Tuned up to F# on both E strings. The lower guitar was tuned down to Ab. The bass guitar was strung with an over sized 6th string tuned an octave below the 5th string tuned down to Ab.
>
>
>
> Nato played the higher guitar.

Interesting stuff. Are you saying that the high guitar was tuned up a whole step or was it just the E strings? I mostly play a dropped tuning these days with the low E dropped down to C and the A string down to G. Boy, that really changes the character of the guitar.

Take care!

[thomas]

Thanks Paul! Did Nato vibrato across the neck, like BB King, or along the neck like a violinist?