Any good looking/good playing classical guitarists?
Richard Spross
> After mis-reading the original header, I started thinking: gosh, who are the
> cutest classical players? Well, my mind started spinning wih all the
> possibilities, and here I am so classically un-educated and all, that I
> thought I'd ask.
>
> On the male side, Christopher Parkening comes to mind. Manual Barrueco can
> sure play, but I don't picture him as centerfold in GQ. Segovia? No comment.
> With all the new players out there, who should I be looking at?
>
> As for females, Liona Boyd of course strikes me as an obvious choice, but Badi
> Assad and Xufei Yang indeed have charms (although Badi may not classify as
> strictly classical).
>
> Any opinions?
>
> ST
Well groan after reading all the posts I'm opening my mouth on this one. People
what is going on here is a dubious discussion about as psycho -therapists call it
OBJECTIFYING each other. Yeah sure we all do it and yeah sure people exploit
others by objectifying them in advertising for commercial gain. An example is how
sexist the press release to Acoustic Guitar Magazine's "Classical guitar issue
this past Fall which depicted Sharon Isbin walking toward the camera holding her
guitar over her shoulder like a sledge hammer and then positioned behind her
Christopher Rouse and Tan Dun looking at her derriere. I was mortified that that
got out. The epitome of classless taste. GRRRR. If looks could kill I think the
next act would have been guitar around camera man's neck. So when we admire each
other for physical reasons only we dehumanize each other. I can tell you from
personal experience it can come back to haunt you. Richard Spross.
John W. Blossick
>From: Richard Spross rcsp...@pacbell.net
>Date: 2/5/02 10:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:
>
>Well groan after reading all the posts I'm opening my mouth on this one.
>People
>what is going on here is a dubious discussion about as psycho -therapists
>call it
>OBJECTIFYING each other. <snip>
So..would it be fair to assume you won't be buying anything from "Victoria
Secrets" in the near future...?...:)
JohnB
Richard Spross
Yeah.
But like I said, we all commit this error. I just own up to it and try to
work through those issues.
And about formal wear, whatever happened to it on the concert stage? Is the
artist obligated to be an entertainer in order to share Art.
I think the priorities of the record companies are skewed and the displacing
of western art music as incidental to our lives a blight upon western
society.
Folk music from whatever tradition may at times very well convey some
truthful insights, but I wager that it pales in comparison to the work of
musical masters who slaved their whole lives to bring us examples of high
art.
The public is so far removed from this perspective that what I am saying
amounts to mythology for most.
Richard Spross
Phillips Guitar Studio
S.
John Sloan wrote:
> "Richard Spross" <rcsp...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3C61A206...@pacbell.net...
> Why worry about it?
>
> John Sloan
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
phillipsgu...@mediaone.net
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"To play pianissimo / is to carry sweet words /
to the old woman in the last dark row / who cannot
hear anything else, / and to lay them across her lap
like a shawl."
~ Lola Haskins
Mixed Voices (1991)
Bob Ashley
> I think the priorities of the record companies are skewed and the displacing
> of western art music as incidental to our lives a blight upon western
> society.
Would you offer that at some historical epoch in the past western art music
was _not_ incidental? Is it true that western art music has mainly occupied
a rather restricted social domain, more bluntly, the garrisoned circle of
the social elite?
> Folk music from whatever tradition may at times very well convey some
> truthful insights, but I wager that it pales in comparison to the work of
> musical masters who slaved their whole lives to bring us examples of high
> art.
Is folk music at all necessary, then, if, as you sketch it, it pales? What
social function does musical 'mastery' serve, and is this function a higher
function? If the motives and aims impelling folk music and art music are
different what gains do we accrue in a comparison between the two? Which
standards are invoked to lay claim to a masterful technicolor 'blush' and
that which renders folk music, just plain, 'pale' folk?
> The public is so far removed from this perspective that what I am saying
> amounts to mythology for most.
Who is the public? Not you? Not I? But only _them_? Who is them? People who
use Proctor & Gamble products, drive automobiles, raise children, and obey
stop signs? I am public, are you? What special properties possesses this
perspective which successfully removes a chosen few from the public in order
to identify the public's own failure in removal?
Let us recall that the myths embody not the 'plain' people, but the gods,
those divine or semi-divine masters swaddled in the full, plush draperies of
their own triumphant follies.
The best place to find myth is where we least expect, or least want, to find
it. There is nothing more mythologically archetypal than classical music's
harping aspirations to claim Mount Olympus for itself.
Plain folk look for, and sometimes sing, for bread for supper. Since when
did humility become a lesser, paler virtue?
***
rib
--
Richard Spross
> >So when we admire each
> >other for physical reasons only we dehumanize each other. I can tell you from
> >personal experience it can come back to haunt you. Richard Spross.
>
> Hi Richard. Excellent musical advice in your posts by the way.
>
> I think I understand the intent of your post, but as for the "admire" bit I
> have to take issue. Most humans admire others for many physical reasons,
> beauty being but one. To an extent even one's skill on guitar is somewhat of a
> physical accomplishment to be admired, not mental alone. Also, I would be
> denying my very nature and closing off my emotions to try and pretend I didn't
> find others attractive physically, although that, I think for most of us, is
> but a small part of what we consider beauty - physical attributes. Beauty is a
> wonderful inspiring thing and it comes in many guises, mental, emotional,
> physical, spiritual among them, and inspires many senses . But I think trying
> to deny physical attraction would be dehumanizing (not to say would put a
> rapid halt to conception).
>
> Tricky subject, this, as semantics can be like stones. That's why I said
> "admire" in quotations. If I see a cute girl rollerblading pass me as I skate
> along the canal, taking smooth easy strides with her long legs, hair flowing
> softly from her ponytail, cheeks rosy pink from the wind and I think "wow, is
> she ever beautiful..." and feel a warm sensation for a moment (no, not in my
> pants; in my chest :-)) I would see that as a form of admiration, and perhaps
> in that "admiration" is a basic and flawed set of assumptions. However, if I
> don't stare, hoot and holler, stalk her or for that matter even acknowledge
> that I have seen her beyond perhaps a polite smile, I don't see that as
> dehumanizing or objectifying. I also don't get many dates. Incidentally, when
> I smile, she doesn't even look my way; no, she doesn't see. That darned
> Garota. Last time I visit Ipanema...
>
> I see exploitation and "objectifying" as different matters altogether and I
> doubt either accomplish much good, and I certainly wouldn't deny we're
> surrounded by both everywhere we turn. Teach your children well, the media
> sure isn't going to do it!
>
> ST
Dear Friends, Scott, Sheri, the two Johns and Bob.
Thank you for your insights into my over-generalizations. Without suffering any
great angst, your comments all serve to help me see these subjects from different
points of view all well taken. I will have to take some time to process your
comments, never-the-less I feel from the sincerity and tenor of your remarks we
are all on the same page from which I derive great comfort. All Best, Richard
John W. Blossick
>From: Richard Spross rcsp...@pacbell.net
>Message-id:
wrote:
> And about formal wear, whatever happened to it on the concert stage?
Beats me. Don't you think you're pushing the envelope a bit this day and age?..
Heck, I wonder what happened to plain ol' table manners.
>Is the
>artist obligated to be an entertainer in order to share Art.
It appears so.
A "concert" is no longer enough. It has to be a _show_ complete with dancers,
lazer lights, pyrotechnics, big screen TV, barnyard animals,
wireless mics, costume changes, fake fog, belly buttons, John Voight, elevated
stages, and the artist flying through the air held by invisible wires..I guess
anythig less is just a drag.
I can easily visualize taking a Estaban type guitarist to the land of lazer
light shows and fog quite easily...The place would be packed too.
In fact, I'm surprised it hasn't been done already.
>I think the priorities of the record companies are skewed and the displacing
>of western art music as incidental to our lives a blight upon western
>society.
You're giving them too much credit. They're not so philosophical. It's $$$'s.
That's the priority.
>Folk music from whatever tradition may at times very well convey some
>truthful insights, but I wager that it pales in comparison to the work of
>musical masters who slaved their whole lives to bring us examples of high
>art.
There may be some truthful insights in there. I agree. In the American
tradition, it pales in comparison.
Personally, I wish the American folk idiom (specifically the vocal) would just
go away and "frolic in the Autumn mist" with Puff, never to be seen again.
>The public is so far removed from this perspective that what I am saying
>amounts to mythology for most.
>
You must first explain mythology to the public..
JohnB
Matanya Ophee
> And about formal wear, whatever happened to it on the concert stage?
Mostly went the way of powdered wigs and tight hoses. Most classical
music venues still maintain it, though, as do most serious main line
performers.
> Is the
>artist obligated to be an entertainer in order to share Art.
Yes. That's what he gets paid for.
>Folk music from whatever tradition may at times very well convey some
>truthful insights,
they always convey truthful insights to the people who practice it.
Outsiders like yourself may not appreciate their truths, but they are
theirs, not yours.
> but I wager that it pales in comparison to the work of
>musical masters who slaved their whole lives to bring us examples of high
>art.
Try and convey that thought to a Russian gypsy chorus, a group of
indigenous peasants banging away on crudely made instruments and
singing their heart out in a polyphony which has nothing in common
with classical counterpoint and is based on what ethnomusicologists
call "unstable scales" i.e., out of tune to your Western trained ears.
To them, what they do is high art. Who are we to question that?
>The public is so far removed from this perspective that what I am saying
>amounts to mythology for most.
What you are saying amounts to a basic uninformed misconception of
what folk music is.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
Richard Spross
John B. et all. I had to go off and do a little processing. This means
wandering down to my local coffee shop where the owner's taste in popular music
(played through a sound system attached to 300 CD player set for random ) ranges
from Astor Piazollo to soundtracks from Disney movies to Frank Sinatra to jazz,
new commercial flamenco etc.etc. and then thinking about it all. Strong coffee.
One thought that occurred to me was that the music history which had been
presented to me in college was devoid of social context It was presented as this
ever growing improving monument to itself to which all heirs were to be forever in
obedience.
Then came Rock and Roll. Oooops.
I grew up in a home in which both parents were classically trained musicians who
used their training in church settings.
Popular music was considered as being just that, popular, and without the depth to
convey or bring humanity toward considering itself as little more than a group of
animals. Classical music was supposed to be the prime conveyer of deep spiritual
insight in which sound as symbol was there to awaken us to a higher reality.
I realize that that point of view is considerably self serving. And I admit that
in light of the vast commercialism of popular music I have taken refuge in it.
I can of course think of many popular, or folk melodies which still to this day
have the carrying power to move me to tears so the argument that i made earlier
even I can see the narrowness of it. So I'm really complaining about the deluge of
choices and the ever present forcing of music in public places upon us. Malls,
bookstores, cafes, elevators, grocery stores.doctors and dentist offices, and that
I have little choice in what I am subjected to. (I think I just was redundant)
With the mass commercialism of music we as a society begin to lose our ability to
feel subtle differences in music and we then learn by ordinary context to "tune
music out ".
Having conditioned ourselves to the raucous, we no longer are capable to
appreciate the subtle and in due time what I consider Music's higher calling gets
lost.
I was over come with emotion after Sharon ISBN's concert last May in Berkeley, in
which she played a fairly conventional program without amplification, such was the
poetic beauty and intensity she brought to the music being played..It had been
nearly 30 years since some one had accomplished that in public, the last being
Andres Segovia for me and it validated my contention that music still had the
power to move. My students who attended still a year later remember that event!
It is this kind of experience that is threatened by the over commercialism of
music.
What John you described above, I subsequently witnessed at a "International Guitar
Night" sponsored by the Omni Foundation a few weeks back. Giant amplifiers pumping
the sound out in a small hall that didn't need it except for the expected affect.
Just a mimic of a rock n roll show complete with self absorbed wagging heads and
"knowing" glances to cue the audience when to be aware that what was being done
was special. There was not a memorable note presented from the time I was able to
get there. So since I missed the first 30 minutes I can't condemn that part of the
program. I'm even not really upset about it all, it just was what it was. I didn't
come with any great expectations. So I really wasn't disappointed but neither was
I moved.
As for formal wear in concerts, the value of it is to send the message that what
is about to occur is (hopefully) something unique and special. In other words,
Folks time to listen up.
The more convenient the listening experience the less we listen. Many of you may
have seen my posting about Andres Segovia and playing without amplification. Well
let me add a sad anecdote: The last time I heard him was on a Sunday afternoon at
The Masonic Auditorium in San Francisco. My big gripe "The air conditioning". Sure
enough! going full bore.
A loud white noise filling the room. People shuffling around, half paying
attention, paper shuffling, murmuring asides to each other. Just like Bob Ashley
described in a Hayden concert. The Maestro looked confused. As if to say, "Why are
they behaving like this". He muddled on though,, determined to the last that
whatever he had to give that remained true to his mission would be appreciated by
those who had yet to hear what ever was the last he could give!
And not to give the impression that I believe that all music must be "serious and
spiritual' not at all. I would only like a better balance than what seems to be
the case these days.
And if you ask me how many concerts I get to well at that point I fail. A BIG F.
So I really don't have the right to point the finger since I am unable to afford
to support those events which might in fact bring what I am looking for.
I do though play for free in my neighborhood at the local bookstore and local card
shop in order to give my neighbors an opportunity to hear and see a musician live
playing at close range a musical instrument. Most of the time I am ignored, which
is OK, but there are those rewarding moments when some unlikely soul gets stopped
in their tracks and captivated by the sound of six strings in a corner.
Just some thoughts. To be continued. Richard
John Wasak
> Why worry about what? Just trying to follow.
>
> S.
>
Good luck. This, rmcg, is mapless territory, following the route is
impossible. Better to call Madame Sosostris, famous clairvoyante, a lady of
situations, and wise woman with a wicked pack of cards.
BTW, the answer to your question, "Why worry about what?" is "it".
And I agree, after all why worry about "it" when we can worry about "this",
"that", and "the other thing"?
;-)
JW
Richard Spross
Agreed. i think the thought that people playing whatever which gives them
whatever meaning they ascribe to it as valuable to them and thus out of my
arena of experience did cross my mind on my coffee walk. Not that i care to
backpedal forever, but it did occur to me. This is how more informed people
such as yourself and many others in this NG help those of us, isolated,
ignorant or out of touch.
But just a trailing thought, Matanya, I seem to remember a posting in which
you complained in the FSvs Classical thread, something about all the
hardworking deserving unpublished composers in this country, who had more to
offer than what commonly gets out there. I think our points of view are not
as far removed as they on the surface appear. I do value true folk music, as
I pointed out in my previous posting it is the over commercialization to
which I object.
Thanks for the reply, Richard Spross
Matanya Ophee
>But just a trailing thought, Matanya, I seem to remember a posting in which
>you complained in the FSvs Classical thread, something about all the
>hardworking deserving unpublished composers in this country, who had more to
>offer than what commonly gets out there.
Not only in this country, but all over the world. And my beef is not
so much with the lack of attention to _unpublished_ music, but to the
huge repository of _published_ music which we already have, and no one
pays attention to. But either way, this is not relevant to the current
argument. What I gathered from your post is that you complain that art
music is not given a the proper respect and it is not as asppreciated
as 'folk' music.
Bananas and apples.
Phillips Guitar Studio
S.
John Wasak wrote:
> Phillips Guitar Studio <phillipsgu...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > Why worry about what? Just trying to follow.
> >
> > S.
> >
>
> Good luck. This, rmcg, is mapless territory, following the route is
> impossible. Better to call Madame Sosostris, famous clairvoyante, a lady of
> situations, and wise woman with a wicked pack of cards.
>
> BTW, the answer to your question, "Why worry about what?" is "it".
>
> And I agree, after all why worry about "it" when we can worry about "this",
> "that", and "the other thing"?
>
> ;-)
>
> JW
>
>
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
satisfaction, nonetheless. But this is a nice post, ST. Seeing beauty is
important. When you are no longer able to see the beauty in things, it's a lost
cause. I think we chickens are all nodding our heads in agreement with you on
this one.
I think admiring beauty in this manner - in and of itself - is something we'd all
be hard-pressed to deny. I know I do it. For example, one day walking through
campus I saw this really attractive young man and I just couldn't take my eyes
off him. Unfortunately for me, as I was craning my neck back to sneak one last
good look at him before he passed out of distance, I tripped UP some stairs and
fell FLAT on my back!!!! I just layed there CRACKING UP LAUGHING!!!! Not only
did I receive a HUGE round of applause, but the young man I was burning holes
through turned beat red and got this huge grin on his face. Everyone knew good
and well what I had been up to, which made it all the more a laughable
situation. So these things I understand. It's a fine line, like you say. You
didn't hoot and holler and lick your lips and make lewd suggestions. You
admired.
But this objectifying thing - on whatever level it's on - becomes tiring. And it
is a bit enmeshed with exploitation. These two hold hands a lot.
It just gets _old_ when you see it in every aspect of your life. Day in and day
out. I don't expect men to be able to relate, necessarily, because they would
have to be _women_ to do that. Bit much, no? So I choose to instead simply let
them know how I perceive it, and they can do whatever they want with it. Some
appreciate the input - sometimes a person doesn't realize how what they say/do
comes across. Some could care less how I perceive things, or how women perceive
things, for that matter. That's okay, too. That's why these darned machines
have a delete button.
S.
Scott Daughtrey wrote:
> >So when we admire each
> >other for physical reasons only we dehumanize each other. I can tell you from
> >personal experience it can come back to haunt you. Richard Spross.
>
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
thought has been given it since its inception, and I'm glad you posted it. I'm
glad everyone has responded to my post, to your post, to Richard's post,
etc. It has proven fruitful.
Thanks.
S.
Scott Daughtrey wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:10:50 GMT, Phillips Guitar Studio
> <phillipsgu...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >Why worry about what? Just trying to follow.
>
> Me too! As I said before I started this as a lark. A day before, someone had
> posted the header "Any good looking/good playing classical guitars?". The
> omission of "sound" in there anywhere made me giggle and made me think about
> cosmetics versus substance, so my post was deliberately intended as a joke.
>
> Now, if I might get back to my Amaretto, arps and girly mags,
> ST
Phillips Guitar Studio
asking "why worry about what?" - I was actually replying to John Sloan's post - I
believe _he_ asked the question. I just wasn't sure which part of your message he
was referring to. So I didn't _necessarily_ see any over generalizations. Although
it seems you've gained some personal clarity on your own thoughts based on the
comments you've received. I really enjoy it when that happens, myself.
I think we are all definitely sincere. There are myriad perspectives on this list.
As in life. I derive as much comfort from that as I do the many shared perspectives
we have.
And thank _you_.
S.
Richard Spross wrote:
> Dear Friends, Scott, Sheri, the two Johns and Bob.
>
> Thank you for your insights into my over-generalizations. Without suffering any
> great angst, your comments all serve to help me see these subjects from different
> points of view all well taken. I will have to take some time to process your
> comments, never-the-less I feel from the sincerity and tenor of your remarks we
> are all on the same page from which I derive great comfort. All Best, Richard
--
John Wasak
[snip]
>So I'm really complaining about the deluge of
> choices and the ever present forcing of music in public places upon us.
Malls,
> bookstores, cafes, elevators, grocery stores.doctors and dentist offices,
and that
> I have little choice in what I am subjected to. (I think I just was
redundant)
>
> With the mass commercialism of music we as a society begin to lose our
ability to
> feel subtle differences in music and we then learn by ordinary context to
"tune
> music out ".
>
> Having conditioned ourselves to the raucous, we no longer are capable to
> appreciate the subtle and in due time what I consider Music's higher
calling gets
> lost.
>
> Just some thoughts. To be continued. Richard
>
Some quick (possible?) answering thoughts:
Music, if we lump it in with all the Arts, is no more or less subject to the
beautiful if that beauty be 'raucous' or 'subtle'. How beautiful is
"Guernica" as compared to the domestic interiors of Jan Vermeer? More
beautiful...less beautiful? Art is nothing more than a human creation, as
such it requires only that our humanity be poured into its mold in the
making of it. Music's or Art's true pitch is not to be found only in
scrupulous reserve, not only in boisterous bounce and sweep, nor only in a
pensive, prayerful utterance or vision. The weighty statue of True Art rests
on neither pedestal of Raucous or Subtle. True Art lives in mandarin
aesthetic, modernist insurrection, the traditional, and the subtle prayer
alike. Art is nothing more than the chalice into which we pour the wine of
transcendence.
To say music has a higher calling suggests that you know what it is...and
maybe even where it can be found. For myself, I never know when I'll find
it, but I can say I've found the high call of musical art in the
banshee-like bottlenecked guitar work and voice of Robert Johnson, the music
and rhyme of Joni Mitchell, the furious saxophone lines of Coltrane's "A
Love Supreme", as well as the 'Agnus Dei' of JS Bach's Mass in B Minor, or
Thomas Tallis' 'Spem in alium'. Ultimately, these all are no different for
ultimately they all tell stories of the soul.
I find it's quite easy to filter out music that's not "music". I only
listen to music that interests me, this is my safeguard. And this whether
it be in the malls, elevators, grocery stores, etc. If anything this has
only increased my interest in what I think of as "good" music.(and as we all
know, there's only two kinds of music: good and bad.)
>
> As for formal wear in concerts, the value of it is to send the message
that what
> is about to occur is (hopefully) something unique and special. In other
words,
> Folks time to listen up.
>
I think formal wear in classical music is one of a number of things that
has, if not brought about its decline, then hastened its ascension into
oblivion in the popular conciousness. You say it makes it unique and
special but I've always thought the idea of dressing up to create and or
present music as absurd. Does a visual artist, a painter let's say, dress
up to apply his vision to the canvas? Does the poet sitting in the lonely
silence of his work desk need to don tuxedo to pen a line or stanza? Yet
both these instances are hopefully, unique and special events. Ah! But
you'll say they lack audience during the creation, and this is true of
course, but it's not audience we speak of here that has any importance, but,
Art. And it's to Arts importance, I think, that the message should be
delivered. In this respect, Art is not so different from Religion - some
believe Religion must be displayed in coat and chapel, suit and synagogue,
others believe Religion can take place in jeans in the cathedral of woods,
or exist in the stamp of sneakers in a subway.
(thoughts to be continued as well.)
JW
Richard Spross
John.
Pardon me, I had to go off and sort out subtle. I visited with a retired
psychology professor over coffee on my second walk, needless to say I bared my
soul and he promptly turned everything upside down. Never-the-less what I am
trying to get to is a performance which inspires awe. Awe in the light of
taking me into a reality hither to unknown. Yes I agree that can be many
different things to different people, but for myself I prefer to hang on to
those memories which endure over decades and propel me to action in service to
others. Such was Ms. Isbin's concert. Beyond this I enjoyed your post. Richard
Phillips Guitar Studio
> John B. et all. I had to go off and do a little processing. This means
> wandering down to my local coffee shop where the owner's taste in popular music
> (played through a sound system attached to 300 CD player set for random ) ranges
> from Astor Piazollo to soundtracks from Disney movies to Frank Sinatra to jazz,
> new commercial flamenco etc.etc. and then thinking about it all. Strong coffee.
A little strong coffee does wonders....Mmmm.
> One thought that occurred to me was that the music history which had been
> presented to me in college was devoid of social context It was presented as this
> ever growing improving monument to itself to which all heirs were to be forever in
> obedience.
>
> Then came Rock and Roll. Oooops.
And "uppity women"!!! Doh!!!!!????? Did I say that out loud???????
> I grew up in a home in which both parents were classically trained musicians who
> used their training in church settings.
> Popular music was considered as being just that, popular, and without the depth to
> convey or bring humanity toward considering itself as little more than a group of
> animals. Classical music was supposed to be the prime conveyer of deep spiritual
> insight in which sound as symbol was there to awaken us to a higher reality.
My thought on this is: classical music _can_ be the prime conveyer of deep spiritual
insight in which sound as symbol is there to awaken us to a higher reality. So can
folk music. So can rock n' roll. So can rap. So can spoken word. So can country
western. Jazz. Raga. Blues. Zydeco. Blue Grass (not that stuff in New Jersey,
either). Flamenco. Klezmer.
ReggaePunkThrashSoulR&BRockabillySwingSocananymusicwechoose. Why not _all_ music?
> I can of course think of many popular, or folk melodies which still to this day
> have the carrying power to move me to tears so the argument that i made earlier
> even I can see the narrowness of it. So I'm really complaining about the deluge of
> choices and the ever present forcing of music in public places upon us. Malls,
> bookstores, cafes, elevators, grocery stores.doctors and dentist offices, and that
> I have little choice in what I am subjected to. (I think I just was redundant)
Hmm. Noise. It's that white noise mentioned earlier. Silence _is_ golden, isn't
it? Silence seems to make people incredibly uncomfortable as a result of all this
"noise". Moreso than it used to. I have a heightened appreciation of silence as a
result of the above.
> With the mass commercialism of music we as a society begin to lose our ability to
> feel subtle differences in music and we then learn by ordinary context to "tune
> music out ".
>
> Having conditioned ourselves to the raucous, we no longer are capable to
> appreciate the subtle and in due time what I consider Music's higher calling gets
> lost.
This is a choice people make. The PH's here don't all seem to feel this way.
DIEversity. What would it be like if the tables were turned and the majority
listened to classical music? I wonder...curious thought, no?
> I was over come with emotion after Sharon ISBN's concert last May in Berkeley, in
> which she played a fairly conventional program without amplification, such was the
> poetic beauty and intensity she brought to the music being played..It had been
> nearly 30 years since some one had accomplished that in public, the last being
> Andres Segovia for me and it validated my contention that music still had the
> power to move. My students who attended still a year later remember that event!
>
> It is this kind of experience that is threatened by the over commercialism of
> music.
Nah.
I got to do her sound check with a friend of mine in Phoenix when she premiered the
Corigliano there. She gave us tickets for helping her out. I was working part-time
at a group home with foster kids as a "foster parent" of sorts. The home I worked in
was all teenage boys. These boys had all been taken from their families (if they
still had families) and were wards of the state, tribe, etc. They were all involved
with gangs, had been to jail multiple times, had almost all od'd on drugs, tattooed,
had been sexually and physically abused by family, you name it. And they all had a
beef with women. Take it from me - I dodged many a flying chair and insult. They
all were into hard core rap. The "uglier" the lyrics and the message, the better.
That's how they felt, after all - like big scary ugly gangster kids. I asked Ms.
Isbin for enough tickets to take the boys. I got them. I took these boys. They
were so unbelievably excited about her concert. Why? because I sat down with them
and explained to them why it was exciting for me. Why I loved classical guitar. I
explained she was one of my role models. I told them about what kind of work she had
to do to prepare. What the composer's history was. How commissioning music works.
What kinds of things to expect at the concert. When to clap. When not to clap. I
told them we would all be going and we would be wearing our best clothes. Every
single one of them pissed and moaned and complained about how nerdy it was, etc., but
I'll tell you this much. It was a show. They dug out their best cacky pants, their
cleanest socks, their whitest fat shoe laces and least worn adidas. They ironed
their shirts, their pants, their shoe laces, and combed their hair twice. Then they
all paraded in front of me for inspection, because they didn't want to "look bad".
They enjoyed the entire process. THOROUGHLY. After the concert, they couldn't stop
talking about it. They had received flyers of hers at the door, which they
immediately pinned up on their walls alongside her program and their ticket stubs
when they got home. They thought it was cool. Because they "got" it. They were
able to make a connection for themselves.
Don't lose hope. These boys came around to having a deep and even respect for women
and learned to appreciate classical guitar and classical music. That was a
springboard for a lot of learning. I could tell you oodles of stories about how
these boys branched out as young men and as musical patrons, but I think you get the
idea.
This was a group of people society had given up on and completely abandoned.
Probably the least likely candidates in a lot of people's minds for change. But they
changed and changed and changed and changed and changed. Not just themselves, but
me, too. : )
> And if you ask me how many concerts I get to well at that point I fail. A BIG F.
> So I really don't have the right to point the finger since I am unable to afford
> to support those events which might in fact bring what I am looking for.
>
> I do though play for free in my neighborhood at the local bookstore and local card
> shop in order to give my neighbors an opportunity to hear and see a musician live
> playing at close range a musical instrument. Most of the time I am ignored, which
> is OK, but there are those rewarding moments when some unlikely soul gets stopped
> in their tracks and captivated by the sound of six strings in a corner.
>
> Just some thoughts. To be continued. Richard
THIS thing you do is wonderful. That one captivated person is worth the 1,000 who
ignore....Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
S.
Richard Spross
Matanya, Greetings,
Well maybe you have reconciled yourself with the status quo. I think Sharon
Isbin is doing a clever job of bridging the gap to a larger audience. I have in
my library a substantial number of The Etude magazines a weekly from the 20's
and 30's which illustrate that classical music education was highly regarded in
the U.S.A. during that time period. I lament that for people growing up such is
generally not the case today which as I've noted before impacts the caliber of
the listener's equipment coming to a concert.
I think the example once given in a college music history class was when
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring was premiered in Paris it caused a riot, yet when it
was first heard in the US. the audience found it stimulating and wondered what
all the fuss was about. If this anecdote is true then it illustrates the level
of musical sophistication and taste acquired by our citizens who came to listen
at that time. Today I doubt such a preponderance of knowledge exists in our
culture among the general public. Maybe I'm just jaded.
I was shocked in 1975 when the esteemed music critic for the SF Chronicle
Robert Commanday complained about the sorry set of circumstances surrounding
music education in the public schools in the SF Bay Area in which he stated that
there had been a steady decline in music programs for the past 50 years. This
was 27 years ago and it has not improved here since.
This has had an enormous impact on the audiences in our area such that for
instance in our largest city, San Jose which boasted California's oldest
symphony in the past 4 or 5 months, found the symphony unable to bring in
sufficient attendees to make its budget. Thus it was forced to close its doors.
Of course it is not all bad everywhere here, but times have changed and the
classical music community here has been under fire for a long time. In the
celebration of all things creative and musical I would like to see some
restoration in public education so that all good things European are not
automatically thrown out because it was "European".
Such a view would suggest just as much elitism as the other.
Oh well, I'm not going to change the world nor do I assume all historical
"classical" music has equal weight. I have my own peculiar preferences just like
everyone else. But it is valuable to hear other concerned people's opinions and
I thank one and all for taking their valuable time to consider mine and to
respond as each person has seen fit. It is a blessing for me at least, I hope
for everyone else as well.
Best Regards, Richard Spross
John W. Blossick
>From: Richard Spross rcsp...@pacbell.net
>Message-id:
Wrote:
<snip>
>Of course it is not all bad everywhere here, but times have changed and the
>classical music community here has been under fire for a long time. In the
>celebration of all things creative and musical I would like to see some
>restoration in public education so that all good things European are not
>automatically thrown out because it was "European".
>
I'm going to have to think on this one for a while..
It seems the PC crowd has no bounds
JohnB..
William D Clinger
Richard Spross wrote:
> Of course it is not all bad everywhere here, but times have changed and the
> classical music community here has been under fire for a long time. In the
> celebration of all things creative and musical I would like to see some
> restoration in public education so that all good things European are not
> automatically thrown out because it was "European".
Prejudice against things European has been less of a factor in this
than the way in which the public education system has reacted to
pressure, especially to tax cuts. When an Oregon voter initiative
in 1990 cut property taxes, public schools had to deal with a large
and sudden decrease in their budgets. Almost all of the school
districts reacted by dropping music education from the curriculum.
Music was viewed as dispensable. Reading, writing, and arithmetic
were not. Maybe this was the right decision.
By the way, Oregon's tax laws in 1990 really were in need of reform.
The state's politicians were too cowardly to do it, so the voters
did it with a hatchet. Thus responsibility for the abandonment of
music education in Oregon, in my view, lies primarily with the
state's citizens, who after all are the people who selected the
school boards, elected the politicians, and passed Measure 5. One
of the best things that can be said about a democracy is that the
people tend to get the government they deserve.
Will
Richard Spross
All too true, Will,
TGIF. Time to move on. Maybe I'll play at the card shop. Bring a little
happiness to others.
Cheers. Richard Spross
Bob Ashley
>> Of course it is not all bad everywhere here, but times have changed and the
>> classical music community here has been under fire for a long time. In the
>> celebration of all things creative and musical I would like to see some
>> restoration in public education so that all good things European are not
>> automatically thrown out because it was "European".
John B wrote:
> I'm going to have to think on this one for a while..
> It seems the PC crowd has no bounds
Politically correct statements are only assessed statements others make. But
it is not a smidgeon less a statement of political correctness to charge
that PC oversteps its bounds. It merely shoehorns in its own 'correct'
variation, strongarms an alternate, superordinate correctness, not a single
checkmark less political.
To my mind, it is the 'anti-political correct' crowd which provides the
exemplary template for that exact thing it rails against. That crowd
conceived of the label 'politically correct' in the first place, doubtless
motivated by its political besting.
Another example, I like this one (nothing to do with you John!), is when
someone charges an opponent's talk as 'mere rhetoric'. This trumped-up
'anti-rhetorical' posture is itself a rhetorical manouever of the firt order
of audience manipulation, as if the complainant were somehow 'above' and
'outside' of rhetoric, and therefore we should trust His/Her Words. I find
this comical!
I dunno, since you were in a thinking mood, John... :)
***
rib
--
John W. Blossick
Wrote:
>But
>it is not a smidgeon less a statement of political correctness to charge
>that PC oversteps its bounds.
You're right..
.Perhaps using the word "limits" would have better conveyed my thoughts..Yet,
even still, I don't think PC has any real boundries, nor can it be harnessed or
contained in respect to which sphere of life it may touch.
In my mind, what I found amazing with Richard's remark, is that music from
Europe could fall prey as a potential target to the history revisionists and PC
crowd..
>To my mind, it is the 'anti-political correct' crowd which provides the
>exemplary template for that exact thing it rails against. That crowd
>conceived of the label 'politically correct' in the first place, doubtless
>motivated by its political besting.
I'm not going to let you go through the back door like that..! They started it
first.! The same can be said of them as well..
As champions of multi culturalism, diversity, tolerance and the like, the PC
seek to stifle differing views from theirs, and are quick to label others that
happen to see things a little differently.
I see it the way G.K Chersterton does..:
"Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for
ignorance."
["Puritan and Anglican," The Speaker, December 15, 1900. Reprinted in The
Chesterton Review, vol.9, no. 4]
And
"Modern toleration is really a tyranny. It is a tyranny because it is a
silence"
I don't know if the label came from political besting. It seems like it was an
easy umbrella to put up to cover ideas that are out there..Much like. left
wing, right wing, liberal and conservative.
>Another example, I like this one (nothing to do with you John!), is when
>someone charges an opponent's talk as 'mere rhetoric'. This trumped-up
>'anti-rhetorical' posture is itself a rhetorical manouever of the firt order
>of audience manipulation, as if the complainant were somehow 'above' and
>'outside' of rhetoric, and therefore we should trust His/Her Words. I find
>this comical!
Me too..! The PC crowd does it all the time..:)
>I dunno, since you were in a thinking mood, John...
I will never used the word "rhetoric", especially when I'm kicking dirt clods
around the barnyard..:)
JohnB
John W. Blossick
>From: Richard Spross rcsp...@pacbell.net
>Message-id: wrote:
> John B. et all. I had to go off and do a little processing. This means
>wandering down to my local coffee shop where the owner's taste in popular
>music.
<Mega Snip>
Thanks for the post Richard..I enjoyed it. Hang in there..Have a decaf for
me...
JohnB
Joseph Raymond
>
> > I was over come with emotion after Sharon ISBN's concert last May in >
Dear Officer Krupkee we're very upset
We never had the love that every child oughtta get
We ain't no delinquents, we're misunderstood
Deep down inside us there is good!
There is good!
S. Sondheim
That was a wonderful story. Acts like that spread far-reaching good.
Way to go sister!
Joe
Bob Ashley
> You're right.. .Perhaps using the word "limits" would have better conveyed my
> thoughts..Yet, even still, I don't think PC has any real boundries, nor can it
> be harnessed or contained in respect to which sphere of life it may touch. In
> my mind, what I found amazing with Richard's remark, is that music from Europe
> could fall prey as a potential target to the history revisionists and PC
> crowd..
Oh! I must have missed that post of Richard's. I think I understand your
kernel thought, though. But 'historical revisionism', has there ever been
anything but? There is no definitive 'THE history' only collections of
partial 'A histories'. Otherwise we'd be looking for its practioners in our
universities right across the hall from the geology lab, not three doors
down from the English lit department. As far as the history of western music
goes, my naive, glossing impression is that it might do well to welcome in a
few scholars with more than a dismissive interest in women's studies. A
well-written history does not selectively neglect the epochal, systematic
oppression of certain participant groups while selectively apotheosizing
others. I know that some interesting 'inclusive' revisions of the history of
visual arts have made gains reversing this sort of traditionally sanctioned
blindness. It's ironic to me that the title of this thread now happens to
subsume this criticism of one of our generally unexamined, patriarchal
licences.
History, in other words tumbling in my mind, anyhoo, always _needs_ revision
because as time marches on, it finds itself just another of last week's
essays in 'first draft' form. History is writing and re-writing is thus one
revision after the next. We should be mortified, then, by the ominous
thought of finding a satisfactory history, one said not to be need of
revision. The day that happens, history ends. It's interesting that you use
PC and historical revisionism in the same sentence, because we don't
normally first think of history as politically motivated. But if we're
honest about our mortal proclivities we should do well to admit that putting
these terms in the same sentence is a healthy reminder that historical
writing does not escape its own political presumptions. Embarrassingly,
historical writing in west has made a fetish of the chronicles of military
generals and emperors. Swords and crowns. Our chronicles describe a cult of
war. That's embarrassing to me. Revisionist, where art thee in this time of
need!
>> To my mind, it is the 'anti-political correct' crowd which provides the
>> exemplary template for that exact thing it rails against. That crowd
>> conceived of the label 'politically correct' in the first place, doubtless
>> motivated by its political besting.
> I'm not going to let you go through the back door like that..! They started it
> first.! The same can be said of them as well.. As champions of multi
> culturalism, diversity, tolerance and the like, the PC seek to stifle
> differing views from theirs, and are quick to label others that happen to see
> things a little differently.
The 'labeling', let us admit, in any political setting, is never exclusively
a one-way assault of fools against the wise, evil against the wise. That's
the WWF! That's our caves of criminals in the U.S. senate, the Canadian
House of Parliament! There are manifold ways to recast your
characterizations above such that the critics of PC can be caricatured as
narrow-minded, retrogressive, radical, monadic, old-fogey, medieval fiefdoms
of far-fetched fools in their own right. My view is that the idiots
espousing dogmatic scriptures, populate _both_ sides of the fence, and it's
probably a pretty even distribution. We would do well to try to tease out
the best, wisest arguments from the morass which dominates _both_ sides.
That's hard work, though, so most of us just choose a side and start
shouting over the fence at the other side because that's easy. That's the
genesis of the WWF! That's just the thunder of the politically correct side
scrapping with the lightning of the anti-politically correct side.
Camel-clutches, clothelines, and cocobonks. These circus spectacles, of
pugilists and pundits alike, sells tickets and T-shirts.
> I see it the way G.K Chersterton does..:
>
> "Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for
> ignorance." ["Puritan and Anglican," The Speaker, December 15, 1900. Reprinted
> in The Chesterton Review, vol.9, no. 4]
What I notice here is that Chesterton does not selectively assign the
ignorance to this or that particular group. Hence, I think he has it right--
that is, he has 'impartiality'... whoops! which means that Chesterton
himself, well....let's not fill in the blanks!
> And
>
> "Modern toleration is really a tyranny. It is a tyranny because it is a
> silence"
This is a rather opaque aphorism, if you ask me. Tyranny can be loud-mouthed
or silent, history usually revealing a tidal preponderance of the former. I
think, Chesterton, to his rhetorical delight, took pleasure, (as I would
too!) in finding a catechretic metaphor designed to destabilize a
commonplace. Toleration is a commonplace virtue and Chesterton finds a
clever way to recast it as a tyranny. I like that! The cleverness, that is.
> Me too..! The PC crowd does it all the time..:)
And let's not leave out Chesterton!
>> I dunno, since you were in a thinking mood, John...
>
> I will never used the word "rhetoric", especially when I'm kicking dirt clods
> around the barnyard..:)
A wise move. I should aspire to that!
***
rib
--
William D Clinger
> In my mind, what I found amazing with Richard's remark, is that music from
> Europe could fall prey as a potential target to the history revisionists and PC
> crowd..
The idea that music from Europe has been displaced in our schools
by music from Asia, Australia, Africa, North America, South America,
or Antarctica strikes me as an instance of historical revisionism.
What I have seen in the public schools is less music of all kinds.
> As champions of multi culturalism, diversity, tolerance and the like, the PC
> seek to stifle differing views from theirs, and are quick to label others that
> happen to see things a little differently.
Yes. It is indeed amusing when a Bostonian who habitually speaks
of celebrating diversity returns from vacation in a western state
expressing contempt for gun racks and country music.
Will
Phillips Guitar Studio
speak. It just kind of worked out that way in the daily adventure called life. I just started working there one
summer, got to know the kids, and stuck around a little longer than expected. We learned a lot from eachother for
sure. They gave me hope at a time when I needed it. The irony of that is what kills me. : )
S.
Joseph Raymond wrote:
> Dear Officer Krupkee we're very upset
> We never had the love that every child oughtta get
> We ain't no delinquents, we're misunderstood
> Deep down inside us there is good!
> There is good!
>
> S. Sondheim
>
> That was a wonderful story. Acts like that spread far-reaching good.
> Way to go sister!
>
> Joe
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
> John W. Blossick wrote:
> > In my mind, what I found amazing with Richard's remark, is that music from
> > Europe could fall prey as a potential target to the history revisionists and PC
> > crowd..
>
> The idea that music from Europe has been displaced in our schools
> by music from Asia, Australia, Africa, North America, South America,
> or Antarctica strikes me as an instance of historical revisionism.
> What I have seen in the public schools is less music of all kinds.
I don't know if I see it so much as displaced as no longer being considered the be
all and end all of music history. This goes to what rib was saying about
revisionist history. My own personal take is when in history was european music
_all_ there ever was? And when in history did women cease to exist? It strikes me
that history is being revised. Hopefully to become more inclusive. But the problem
here seems to me to be one of value, once again. And I don't think I will really
succeed in explaining my perspective on this any better than rib already has in his
own.
> As champions of multi culturalism, diversity, tolerance and the like, the PC
> > seek to stifle differing views from theirs, and are quick to label others that
> > happen to see things a little differently.
>
> Yes. It is indeed amusing when a Bostonian who habitually speaks
> of celebrating diversity returns from vacation in a western state
> expressing contempt for gun racks and country music.
>
> Will
This just sounds like a personal expression of disinterest. I don't know the frame
of reference for this, but I can tell you that it only describes one person. With
one perspective. And it is _also_ not all-inclusive. Gross overgeneralization of
any state out west. I have a little experience in this regard. I've lived in 39
states in the U.S. and have been in all but two on one occasion or another.
My first impression of Boston was how filthy it is. And how odd it is that you
can't see the sky for miles and miles like you can out west. That doesn't even
scratch the surface of my impression of Boston or New England. It's just an
observation. I have years of exploring to do before I would be in a position to
really say I _know_ Boston and can describe its essence. And even then it's still
just an observation of one.
S.
El McMeen
>
> > Dear Officer Krupkee we're very upset
> > We never had the love that every child oughtta get
> > We ain't no delinquents, we're misunderstood
> > Deep down inside us there is good!
> > There is good!
Dear Officer Krupkee, we never had Tab,
We needed notation, but it wasn't fab
We ain't no delinquents, we're not troglodytes
Thanks, El, for showing us the light
Us the light!
Uh, oh, incoming...
EM
Phillips Guitar Studio
> But 'historical revisionism', has there ever been
> anything but? There is no definitive 'THE history' only collections of
> partial 'A histories'. Otherwise we'd be looking for its practioners in our
> universities right across the hall from the geology lab, not three doors
> down from the English lit department. As far as the history of western music
> goes, my naive, glossing impression is that it might do well to welcome in a
> few scholars with more than a dismissive interest in women's studies.
I agree. I did a lot of research on my own college and it's programs and so
forth. Which didn't win me many friends. But a couple of small changes were made
there, as a result. However, the biggest most glaring problem that still exists
there is their complete lack of inclusion of _any_ women in history. We didn't
even discuss Hildegard. Or when discussing Copland, learn that he (among others)
studied with Boulanger. How basic. And when, in classes, as a woman you raise
your hand and ask, "So where the hell are all the women in this history?" you get
a reply of, "There weren't any women who made a significant contribution." That's
just absurd. A non-answer. Cop-out. A professor there started offering a course
on women in music. Would you believe a music major cannot get credit for her
course? I pushed this envelope with the director of the college. Who advised me
to speak with another administrator, who advised me they would not allow credit
because the professor teaching the course was not a musicologist. My response was
- "Why don't we find a musicologist to teach the course, then?" The administrator
said someone would have to volunteer to do so, and no one had. Well, no one had
been asked, either. I went around and asked. I almost had someone talked into it
before I left. Only time will tell. I know a couple professors there now include
a little bit about women in their lectures.
But then, here's that dismissive interest of which you speak, which in my mind
isn't much of an improvement, if an improvement at all.
_This_ history has been _revised_ right out of music history. A revision occurred
when someone decided to completely negate the contribution of women. Musicologist
as editor.
> A well-written history does not selectively neglect the epochal, systematic
> oppression of certain participant groups while selectively apotheosizing
> others. I know that some interesting 'inclusive' revisions of the history of
> visual arts have made gains reversing this sort of traditionally sanctioned
> blindness. It's ironic to me that the title of this thread now happens to
> subsume this criticism of one of our generally unexamined, patriarchal
> licences.
Visual arts are _miles_ ahead of music in this regard. Miles. In terms of
curriculum, anyway. Literature, as well. The not-so-funny thing is, there has
been an absurd amount of work done in the field of music in this regard that has
gone completely unused.
> History, in other words tumbling in my mind, anyhoo, always _needs_ revision
> because as time marches on, it finds itself just another of last week's
> essays in 'first draft' form. History is writing and re-writing is thus one
> revision after the next. We should be mortified, then, by the ominous
> thought of finding a satisfactory history, one said not to be need of
> revision. The day that happens, history ends.
Couldn't agree more. That would be like thinking you learned everything there is
to playing classical guitar. No longer believing you are a lifetime student of it.
> It's interesting that you use
> PC and historical revisionism in the same sentence, because we don't
> normally first think of history as politically motivated. But if we're
> honest about our mortal proclivities we should do well to admit that putting
> these terms in the same sentence is a healthy reminder that historical
> writing does not escape its own political presumptions.
Whew. You said it. How about that composer "Anon.". Speaks political volumes.
> The 'labeling', let us admit, in any political setting, is never exclusively
> a one-way assault of fools against the wise, evil against the wise. That's
> the WWF! That's our caves of criminals in the U.S. senate, the Canadian
> House of Parliament! There are manifold ways to recast your
> characterizations above such that the critics of PC can be caricatured as
> narrow-minded, retrogressive, radical, monadic, old-fogey, medieval fiefdoms
> of far-fetched fools in their own right. My view is that the idiots
> espousing dogmatic scriptures, populate _both_ sides of the fence, and it's
> probably a pretty even distribution. We would do well to try to tease out
> the best, wisest arguments from the morass which dominates _both_ sides.
> That's hard work, though, so most of us just choose a side and start
> shouting over the fence at the other side because that's easy.
Yes. True. Fruitless effort, this. How to convince others of the teasing out
process, though?
John Wasak
> However, the biggest most glaring problem that still exists
> there is their complete lack of inclusion of _any_ women in history. We
didn't
> even discuss Hildegard. Or when discussing Copland, learn that he (among
others)
> studied with Boulanger.
>
That's surprising. If nothing else I always thought that Mrs.Amy Beach
always surfaced in musical histories as the token example of a female
composer. Usually one finds mention of Fanny Mendelssohn and Clara Wieck
Schumann as well. And a while back there was a Hildegard craze - I'd have
sworn I even heard her in a supermarket! - and occasionally the name of
Germaine Tailleferre pops up, and these days there's numerous references to
Sofia Gubaidulina and Ellen Taffe Zwillich.
Anyway, just thinking about this reminded me that the first book I ever
read on music theory and style was one penned by a women, Imogen Holst - the
daughter of Gustav Holst.
JW
John Wasak
> My first impression of Boston was how filthy it is.
You ever been to New York City? ;-)
I haven't been in the city of Boston in quite a few years now but I remember
thinking that it was cleaner than NYC. Though,I'll admit, New York seems
cleaner to me these days than it used to.
JW
Greg M. Silverman
Out of lurk mode on this thread to add that there is a local composer of
great note, who is very prolific and much performed: Libby Larson. Also,
in the world of classical music, there are _many_ more women composers
and perfromers when compared to the world of jazz; in fact, I would be
hard pressed to think of any composers or arrangers otehr than Maria
Schneider (another graduate from the UofMN school of music, along with
Libby Larson).
Regards,
Greg--
Dawn and Todd Tipton
"Greg M. Silverman" wrote:
>
>
> Out of lurk mode on this thread to add that there is a local composer of
> great note, who is very prolific and much performed: Libby Larson.>
Libby Larson has also written for the guitar. "Blue Third
Pieces" for guitar and flute comes to mind. That also brings to
my mind Katherine Hoover's "Canyon Echos" for guitar and flute.
Todd Tipton
Minneapolis, Mn.
612-735-5865
http://toddtipton.homestead.com
"I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has
intended us to forego their use."
--Galileo Galilei
Bob Ashley
> Bob Ashley rote:
>
>> But 'historical revisionism', has there ever been
>> anything but? There is no definitive 'THE history' only collections of
>> partial 'A histories'. Otherwise we'd be looking for its practioners in our
>> universities right across the hall from the geology lab, not three doors
>> down from the English lit department. As far as the history of western music
>> goes, my naive, glossing impression is that it might do well to welcome in a
>> few scholars with more than a dismissive interest in women's studies.
S wrote:
> I agree. I did a lot of research on my own college and it's programs and so
> forth. Which didn't win me many friends.
This is good. The not winning many friends, however, is a probably a good
example of the the most staunchly fossilized, politically-welded POLITICALLY
CORRECT marginalizing what THEY label political correctness. Big PC vs
little pc.
> But a couple of small changes were
> made there, as a result. However, the biggest most glaring problem that still
> exists there is their complete lack of inclusion of _any_ women in history.
Yes, thanks to bright women who have awakened a few hermetic minds, this
pestilence of absence has finally come into our collective consciousness, at
least it is started in that direction.
> We didn't even discuss Hildegard. Or when discussing Copland, learn that he
> (among others) studied with Boulanger. How basic. And when, in classes, as a
> woman you raise your hand and ask, "So where the hell are all the women in
> this history?" you get a reply of, "There weren't any women who made a
> significant contribution." That's just absurd. A non-answer. Cop-out. A
> professor there started offering a course on women in music. Would you
> believe a music major cannot get credit for her course? I pushed this
> envelope with the director of the college. Who advised me to speak with
> another administrator, who advised me they would not allow credit because the
> professor teaching the course was not a musicologist. My response was - "Why
> don't we find a musicologist to teach the course, then?" The administrator
> said someone would have to volunteer to do so, and no one had. Well, no one
> had been asked, either. I went around and asked. I almost had someone talked
> into it before I left. Only time will tell. I know a couple professors there
> now include a little bit about women in their lectures.
What a story! It makes me feel as if only six inches emerged out of a
pre-paleolithic stupor. This is, let us call this puny projection, 'The
Phallic Progress', a term used to denote a the phallacious coverup of a
historical stall in human cognition by the progressive power of the puny
penis.
> But then, here's that dismissive interest of which you speak, which in my mind
> isn't much of an improvement, if an improvement at all.
Yes, your story is exemplary in this respect.
> _This_ history has been _revised_ right out of music history. A revision
> occurred when someone decided to completely negate the contribution of women.
> Musicologist as editor.
The sad fact, though, is that oppression was indeed obstructive to such an
extent that I think it remains still those accomplishments of men that even
managed to come to fruition. Though we can argue that the artistic potential
is equal between men and women, history witnesses the male-administered
abortions, still-borns, and infanticides of women's art. But this same group
sanctioned a guild-trained midwifery and a doting parentage and rearing of
men's art. There is more extant male art because patriarchies systematically
obliterated not just women's art, but also their gestational nurture of it.
The history of western art is a set of twins, one male, fawned over and
glorified, the other, female, disfigured, then banished to the historical
badlands of the unknown. The history of western art is the moon, one half
illuminated and mapped, one half black and unknown. Our histories describes
this moon as if it were hemispherical, not spherical, as if a bowl full of
men, not a pearl full of people.
> Visual arts are _miles_ ahead of music in this regard. Miles. In terms of
> curriculum, anyway. Literature, as well. The not-so-funny thing is, there
> has been an absurd amount of work done in the field of music in this regard
> that has gone completely unused.
I think you're right about the miles-length lead that the visual arts and
literature enjoy over music, with respect to 'inclusive' curricula. Music,
or more specifically musical performance, is the by far the most radically
conservative of the arts. But, I'm sure you'll agree that not all is dark
and faulty for that seemingly ponderous viscosity. After all, curricula and
histories are not the arts themselves, only witnesses. Music, probably
better than any other art, can manifest and remanifest a sort of living,
singing history of itself in real time, that musical performance is always
dynamic, not embalmed in stasis, as one might say about painting or
architecture. Michelangelo is permanently nailed to the Renaissance,
literally and figuratively; I've seen photos and films of his art, but I've
never actually seen them for real. Bach lives or is 're-lived' for real
while I drink my coffee and log onto the internet. I'm at a complete loss to
draw a useful connection between what appears to be a nefarious historical
chronicling of music and music's unequaled virtue when it comes to conjuring
and reconjuring itself, transcending death, history, stasis. A complete
loss.
The visual arts are monumental and still. Music is ghostly and moving,
always coming back, the only thing ghosts can do. Come back.
> Yes. True. Fruitless effort, this. How to convince others of the teasing
> out process, though?
Not a clue. I am a 'liberal ironist', meaning that while I can get all
up-in-arms about injustices of all sorts, I am resigned. 'Fruitless effort'
is a good slogan for the liberal ironist. I am resigned because my argument
is founded on a weak form of liberal relativism. This compels me both to
rail against cruelty (liberal) and to concede that my own perspective is
highly localized, peculiarly political, and that it is culturally
conditioned to particular perspective on correctness (relative), no
differently than those with whom I disagree.
The goal of the liberal ironist is to learn to survive inside the space of
precarious hestitations, to manouver through aporetic bewilderment, to find
minute-to-minute footings in the unsurety of non-closure. There is a
resigned admission in knowing one knows next to nothing, reminded of this
impoverishment every time I stare into that infinite, black abyss which
swallows itself whole just beyond my little campfire.
This is long-winded way to reassert the mortal as finite. The rest is trim.
***
rib
John Wasak
Along these lines there's an interesting list of operas and operettas
composed by women since 1614 (!) (ever hear of any of 'em?) Note: the list
is lengthy and takes a little time to download.
http://www.homestead.com/operasbywomen/files/operasbywomen_1.html
Greg, I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind when you mention female
jazz composers. Maybe not in a formally strict sense of the word are there
more female jazz composers as compared to classical, but I think that there
a quite a number of women in jazz, pianists especially, who write their own
music and also "compose" when they improvise.
JW
Sam Culotta
"Bob Ashley" <ax...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:B88AEEC8.1F8FD%ax...@chebucto.ns.ca...
>
>I am resigned because my argument
is founded on a weak form of liberal relativism. This compels me both to
rail against cruelty (liberal) and to concede that my own perspective is
highly localized, peculiarly political, and that it is culturally
conditioned to particular perspective on correctness (relative), no
differently than those with whom I disagree<
Ah yes, you describe beautifully the irony of thoughtful liberalism: the
agony and the ectasy of never being certain of the ground on which you
stand.
On the other hand, those who are most offended by such an intellectual and
moral stance are quite certain of their certainty, so certain that they're
certain you're wrong.
I don't have an option here, I only yam what I yam, uncertain. Sometimes I
envy the other but not for long.
Sam
Greg M. Silverman
>
> Greg, I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind when you mention female
> jazz composers. Maybe not in a formally strict sense of the word are there
> more female jazz composers as compared to classical, but I think that there
> a quite a number of women in jazz, pianists especially, who write their own
> music and also "compose" when they improvise.
>
I am thinking about composers in the sense of the Miles Davises, Charlie
Parkers, Thelonius Monks, Pat Methenys,
John McGlaughlins, etc... composers of the standard works of jazz, both
classic and contemporary. I do _not_ think I could name a single woman
composer of tha caliber (oops I take this back, I can name 2 very
prominent contemporary jazz composers: Carla Bley and Patrice Rushen,
but this is a very small set!).
As far as arrangers, ala Gil Evans, there is Maria Schneider (who so
happened to work with Gil), but beyond that, if you are ferring to the
likes of Marian McPartland, yes she is a great arranger, and I believe
may have penned a few orginal compositions, but for the most part, if
you find a female jazz musician, they are mostly vocalists. All in all,
there are many more female performers in classical than in jazz. Can you
name a single female jazz guitarist of note (there is a female jazz
violinist of some note)? If so, I'll send you a fiver! :-)
Cheers!
Greg--
Sam Culotta
>. A revision occurred
when someone decided to completely negate the contribution of women.
Musicologist
as editor.<
This would be called a musicsogynist.
You say musicologist
I say musicsogynist
ah...let's call the whole thing off.
Sam
"Phillips Guitar Studio" <phillipsgu...@mediaone.net> wrote in
message news:3C6542D7...@mediaone.net...
Steven Bornfeld
John Wasak wrote:
>
> Greg, I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind when you mention female
> jazz composers. Maybe not in a formally strict sense of the word are there
> more female jazz composers as compared to classical, but I think that there
> a quite a number of women in jazz, pianists especially, who write their own
> music and also "compose" when they improvise.
>
> JW
The list of the well-known is short. However, I didn't see anyone mention
Mary Lou Williams
Steve
Greg M. Silverman
> All in all,
> there are many more female performers in classical than in jazz. Can you
> name a single female jazz guitarist of note (there is a female jazz
> violinist of some note)? If so, I'll send you a fiver! :-)
>
> Cheers!
> Greg--
Eat my words time: there is of course the late great guitarist, Emily
Remler, duh! So John, where do you want the fiver sent? :-)
But as our Steve pointed out: "the list of the well-known is short." Sad
but true, I think that women have had a much harder time making it in
the world of jazz than in the world of classical music... I seem to
recall a conversation that Marianne McPartland had on her show to this
point (with whom, I don't remeber). After all, before the 1960s, there
were _very_ few instrumental jazz musicians that were women (Marianne
and Mary Lou Willaims only come to mind - in fact, the number could
probably be counted on one hand)!
Greg--
John Wasak
> John Wasak wrote:
> >
>
> > Greg, I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind when you mention female
> > jazz composers. Maybe not in a formally strict sense of the word are
there
> > more female jazz composers as compared to classical, but I think that
there
> > a quite a number of women in jazz, pianists especially, who write their
own
> > music and also "compose" when they improvise.
> >
>
> I am thinking about composers in the sense of the Miles Davises, Charlie
> Parkers, Thelonius Monks, Pat Methenys,
> John McGlaughlins, etc... composers of the standard works of jazz, both
> classic and contemporary. I do _not_ think I could name a single woman
> composer of tha caliber (oops I take this back, I can name 2 very
> prominent contemporary jazz composers: Carla Bley and Patrice Rushen,
> but this is a very small set!).
>
Ya see, there are some! (there's others). Of course, music of all genres
is mostly populated by men. There's no denying that.
> As far as arrangers, ala Gil Evans, there is Maria Schneider (who so
> happened to work with Gil), but beyond that, if you are ferring to the
> likes of Marian McPartland, yes she is a great arranger, and I believe
> may have penned a few orginal compositions, but for the most part, if
> you find a female jazz musician, they are mostly vocalists.
No doubt about it, the gender barrier in jazz has been, and continues to be
a seemingly high wall to scale but female jazz musicians are, and have, been
around - in piano alone there's been women from Lil Hardin Armstrong and
Mary Lou Williams to Joanne Brackeen, Eliane Elias, Jessica Williams,etc.
>Can you
> name a single female jazz guitarist of note (there is a female jazz
> violinist of some note)? If so, I'll send you a fiver! :-)
Well, I suppose the sending of that fiver could precariously balance on the
meaning of "of note", but I would answer your question with a "Yes."
In the swing era there was Mary Osborne who was inspired by Charlie
Christian and toured with a laundry list of bands. In our time there was a
great jazz guitarist by the name of Emily Remler who in a duet recording
with Larry Coryell showed herself to be far and away the better musician,
and her "East to Wes" recording is a favorite jazz guitar recording of mine.
You could hear the Wes influence on her playing. I really liked Emily and
it's very unfortunate that she died in 1990 at the age of 32, I think she
could have truly become one of the greats of jazz guitar. Currently,
there's Mimi Fox who can do some convincing bebop.
JW
Greg M. Silverman
> >
> > I am thinking about composers in the sense of the Miles Davises, Charlie
> > Parkers, Thelonius Monks, Pat Methenys,
> > John McGlaughlins, etc... composers of the standard works of jazz, both
> > classic and contemporary. I do _not_ think I could name a single woman
> > composer of tha caliber (oops I take this back, I can name 2 very
> > prominent contemporary jazz composers: Carla Bley and Patrice Rushen,
> > but this is a very small set!).
> >
>
> Ya see, there are some! (there's others). Of course, music of all genres
> is mostly populated by men. There's no denying that.
Indeed it is so.. however, one genre of music comes to mind that has a
nice healthy mix of both men and women performers in it: that of the
world of early music performance.
>
> > As far as arrangers, ala Gil Evans, there is Maria Schneider (who so
> > happened to work with Gil), but beyond that, if you are ferring to the
> > likes of Marian McPartland, yes she is a great arranger, and I believe
> > may have penned a few orginal compositions, but for the most part, if
> > you find a female jazz musician, they are mostly vocalists.
>
> No doubt about it, the gender barrier in jazz has been, and continues to be
> a seemingly high wall to scale but female jazz musicians are, and have, been
> around - in piano alone there's been women from Lil Hardin Armstrong and
> Mary Lou Williams to Joanne Brackeen, Eliane Elias, Jessica Williams,etc.
>
Okay fine... Mary Lou is the only in this list I am familair with, never
heard of the others, but I am sure even more could be added to the list.
> >Can you
> > name a single female jazz guitarist of note (there is a female jazz
> > violinist of some note)? If so, I'll send you a fiver! :-)
>
> Well, I suppose the sending of that fiver could precariously balance on the
> meaning of "of note", but I would answer your question with a "Yes."
>
> In the swing era there was Mary Osborne who was inspired by Charlie
> Christian and toured with a laundry list of bands.
> In our time there was a
> great jazz guitarist by the name of Emily Remler who in a duet recording
> with Larry Coryell showed herself to be far and away the better musician,
> and her "East to Wes" recording is a favorite jazz guitar recording of mine.
> You could hear the Wes influence on her playing. I really liked Emily and
> it's very unfortunate that she died in 1990 at the age of 32, I think she
> could have truly become one of the greats of jazz guitar. Currently,
> there's Mimi Fox who can do some convincing bebop.
Ha! I beat you to it with Emily... stupid me has one of her books
(picked it up at a used book store, have yet to look through it though).
Will have to dig this out and take a serious look at it...
Wow! Who woulda thunk it, bop female guitarists in the swing era! You
have certainly earned your fiver plus!
Cheers!
Greg--
Richard Spross
Folks, still haven't figured out about quoting and snipping, so I just picked the
a short message to enter in. Please forgive.
What has transpired here in my locale in response to the diversification of
people in the public schools has been a classic example of economic rebuttal.
People of money have banded together where ever they saw fit and have spawned
hundreds of private schools to promulgate the values they ascribe to which they
perceive as being underminded in the public school agenda. This only serves to
separate the haves from the have-nots and creates a wider gap of distrust and
misunderstanding between people of color and people of European ancestry. This
snobbish withdrawal, makes the whole society feel on edge and suspicious of
itself and breeds a reverse snobbish withdrawal as well.
So I think it was in replying to MO that I was trying to suggest that there was
nothing wrong with expanded history, but that to dismiss Western History as
insignificant was to me to throw the baby out with the bath water. As for the
issue of inclusion or non inclusion of women, I think I pointed out what I now
realize as the major flaw in my collegiate historical
education as being lacking in social context, which by the term would of
necessity included all the unincluded.
If anyone could persuade Ann Callaway out here to write for guitar or guitar and
other instruments we would probably get a masterpiece. She graduated with her
Ph.D. in theory and composition from Columbia University and as so many lives go
got stranded out here. I assume she's doing well, but she wrote an avant-garde
piece of music for mixed instruments years ago, which was reviewed, published and
performed.. I had the opportunity to hear the tape of the performance and if
there is a hidden genius anywhere on the planet, it is her. It took me into my
soul to regions I hither-to unknown and unfortunately since still unknown. I
mention this only as a testimony to the power of music. I approached the
listening experience with grave skepticism and then to have experienced what I
did, (no drugs folks) was awesome.
So if there is anyone out there who might remember her from back East or from her
current professional doings, well hidden from my world, please do everyone a big
favor and intercede.
The world needs music like that.
Richard Spross
Phillips Guitar Studio
out since we're on the subject:
http://www.greenwood.com/books/BookDetail.asp?dept_id=1&sku=GR9385&imprintID=I1
S.
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
of Beach for guitar, and there are also arrangements of Landowska and Clara
Schumann. Nevermind the original compositions by many others. Anyhoo....
I think you make my point _crystal_ clear with your examples! It is
surprising, isn't it!
S.
John Wasak wrote:
--
Matanya Ophee
>Yes - hence the term "glaring" problem...... : - ) I've played an arrangement
>of Beach for guitar, and there are also arrangements of Landowska and Clara
>Schumann. Nevermind the original compositions by many others.
For example: the Rhapsody by Marilyn Ziffrin, the Prelude and Fugue by
Nina Aristova (Russ. Coll. VII), and in the early 19th century:
Athenaďs Paulian, Emilia Gugliemi-Giuliani, Julia Piston, all
excellent composers if not exactly centerfold material... and of
course, the inimitable Madame Sidney Pratten and her sister Giulia,
both rather dumpy looking specipersons. As for the Madame's music,
perhaps it would be good to note _how_ exactly I have come into
possession of a large number of her editions: there was this
antiquarian dealer in Bournemouth, England from whom I bought a large
number of reference books. They all came very carefully packed in the
Madame's guitar editions. Was cheaper than foam packaging and just as
valuable musically.
Ziffrin's and Aristova's music is something else. Both a sleeper
waiting to be discovered.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
John Wasak
Bob Ashley
> Ah yes, you describe beautifully the irony of thoughtful liberalism: the agony
> and the ectasy of never being certain of the ground on which you stand. On the
> other hand, those who are most offended by such an intellectual and moral
> stance are quite certain of their certainty, so certain that they're certain
> you're wrong.
Yes, I think you're right, that's the way it usually goes. The sad
entanglement of the liberal ironist is that even though those others
possessing rock certainty about the wrongness of your uncertainty may
offend, the liberal ironist can't rule out the possibility of their
correctitude without becoming him/herself becoming one of them.
One cannot argue for the correctness of relativism without abandoning it.
***
rib
John Wasak
> Indeed it is so.. however, one genre of music comes to mind that has a
> nice healthy mix of both men and women performers in it: that of the
> world of early music performance.
>
Yeah. Classical music overall seems more mixed than many, especially string
sections of orchestras.
> >
> > No doubt about it, the gender barrier in jazz has been, and continues
to be
> > a seemingly high wall to scale but female jazz musicians are, and have,
been
> > around - in piano alone there's been women from Lil Hardin Armstrong
and
> > Mary Lou Williams to Joanne Brackeen, Eliane Elias, Jessica
Williams,etc.
> >
>
> Okay fine... Mary Lou is the only in this list I am familair with, never
> heard of the others, but I am sure even more could be added to the list.
>
Certainly more, that was just off the top of my head. Brackeen, Elias,and
Jessica Williams are all current. Brackeen's a major player, in the late
1950's she played with Dexter Gordon and Charles Lloyd. In the late 1960's
Brackeen was the first female piano player in Art Blakeys Jazz Messengers
and she also worked later on with Stan Getz.
You might be familiar with Lil Hardin Armstrong too. In the early 1920's
Lil Hardin was the piano player in King Olivers Jazz Band where she met a
guy by the name of Louis Armstrong and wound up marrying him. Lil was also
the piano player on Armstrongs famous Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings.
(composer of "Struttin with some Barbecue").
>
> > >Can you
> > > name a single female jazz guitarist of note (there is a female jazz
> > > violinist of some note)? If so, I'll send you a fiver! :-)
> >
> > Well, I suppose the sending of that fiver could precariously balance on
the
> > meaning of "of note", but I would answer your question with a "Yes."
> >
> > In the swing era there was Mary Osborne who was inspired by Charlie
> > Christian and toured with a laundry list of bands.
> > In our time there was a
> > great jazz guitarist by the name of Emily Remler who in a duet recording
> > with Larry Coryell showed herself to be far and away the better
musician,
> > and her "East to Wes" recording is a favorite jazz guitar recording of
mine.
> > You could hear the Wes influence on her playing. I really liked Emily
and
> > it's very unfortunate that she died in 1990 at the age of 32, I think
she
> > could have truly become one of the greats of jazz guitar. Currently,
> > there's Mimi Fox who can do some convincing bebop.
>
> Ha! I beat you to it with Emily... stupid me has one of her books
> (picked it up at a used book store, have yet to look through it though).
> Will have to dig this out and take a serious look at it...
>
Nevermind the music, get "East to Wes" and listen to her play.
> Wow! Who woulda thunk it, bop female guitarists in the swing era! You
> have certainly earned your fiver plus!
>
I'm certain there's a few others, none come immediately to mind though. (It
might be interesting to ask on the jazz guitar group how many female jazz
guitarists people there could name!)
Another thing to consider when counting the number of female performers in
jazz is actually how many women in general take an interest in actively
listening to jazz at all. I'd wager your fiver that in jazz the ratio of
female listeners is about the same as the ratio of female perfomers.
Oh yeah.... I just thought of Jane Ira Bloom, one of the few full-time
soprano saxophonists in all of jazz and composer as well.
JW
Sam Culotta
Bob Ashley wrote:
> One cannot argue for the correctness of relativism without abandoning it.<
Aye, there's the rub..and yet I can't abandon it.
Or, as Voltaire put it:
Doubt is not a very agreeable state, but certainty is a
ridiculus one.
S.
Klaus Heim
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:28cb6uk4jlm3u7rl1...@4ax.com...
> Phillips Guitar Studio <phillipsgu...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >Yes - hence the term "glaring" problem...... : - ) I've played an
arrangement
> >of Beach for guitar, and there are also arrangements of Landowska and
Clara
> >Schumann. Nevermind the original compositions by many others.
>
> For example: the Rhapsody by Marilyn Ziffrin, the Prelude and Fugue by
> Nina Aristova (Russ. Coll. VII), and in the early 19th century:
> Athenaďs Paulian, Emilia Gugliemi-Giuliani, Julia Piston, all
> excellent composers if not exactly centerfold material... and of
> course, the inimitable Madame Sidney Pratten and her sister Giulia,
> both rather dumpy looking specipersons. As for the Madame's music,
> perhaps it would be good to note _how_ exactly I have come into
> possession of a large number of her editions: there was this
> antiquarian dealer in Bournemouth, England from whom I bought a large
> number of reference books. They all came very carefully packed in the
> Madame's guitar editions. Was cheaper than foam packaging and just as
> valuable musically.
>
> Ziffrin's and Aristova's music is something else. Both a sleeper
> waiting to be discovered.
There are quite a lot of women composer's writing music for and with the
guitar nowadays. Much of it has been recorded.
http://www.furore-verlag.de/ specializes in women composers.
Klaus
Phillips Guitar Studio
may or may not have stumbled upon them:
http://www.jazzhouse.org/files/lee1.php3
http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/women/mujazz.html
http://www.pbs.org/jazz/time/time_women.htm
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/articles/womn1200.htm
That's just stuff I rustled up real quick. There are a couple women on another
list I'm on that would be great resources of information, if anyone is
interested. I'm sure I have a couple more sites buried around here, somewhere,
too....I'll dig 'em up if anyone's interested.
I'll go and look at that site, JW. I may be, but must get these replies outta
the way, then go explore... : ) Thanks for the info!
S.
JW wrote:
> Along these lines there's an interesting list of operas and operettas
> composed by women since 1614 (!) (ever hear of any of 'em?) Note: the list
> is lengthy and takes a little time to download.
> http://www.homestead.com/operasbywomen/files/operasbywomen_1.html
>
> Greg, I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind when you mention female
> jazz composers. Maybe not in a formally strict sense of the word are there
> more female jazz composers as compared to classical, but I think that there
> a quite a number of women in jazz, pianists especially, who write their own
> music and also "compose" when they improvise.
>
> JW
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
And says something - glad he used it to send _your_ package, or it may have ended
up "packaging material" for eternity...
S.
Matanya Ophee wrote:
> Phillips Guitar Studio <phillipsgu...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >Yes - hence the term "glaring" problem...... : - ) I've played an arrangement
> >of Beach for guitar, and there are also arrangements of Landowska and Clara
> >Schumann. Nevermind the original compositions by many others.
>
> For example: the Rhapsody by Marilyn Ziffrin, the Prelude and Fugue by
> Nina Aristova (Russ. Coll. VII), and in the early 19th century:
> Athenaïs Paulian, Emilia Gugliemi-Giuliani, Julia Piston, all
> excellent composers if not exactly centerfold material... and of
> course, the inimitable Madame Sidney Pratten and her sister Giulia,
> both rather dumpy looking specipersons. As for the Madame's music,
> perhaps it would be good to note _how_ exactly I have come into
> possession of a large number of her editions: there was this
> antiquarian dealer in Bournemouth, England from whom I bought a large
> number of reference books. They all came very carefully packed in the
> Madame's guitar editions. Was cheaper than foam packaging and just as
> valuable musically.
>
> Ziffrin's and Aristova's music is something else. Both a sleeper
> waiting to be discovered.
>
> Matanya Ophee
> Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
> 1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
> Columbus, OH 43235-1226
> 614-846-9517
> fax: 614-846-9794
> http://www.orphee.com
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
interested. Furore-verlag is quite good. I already posted the link of
music by women for guitar - plenty of info. in there. Plus MO's
recommendations.
S.
Klaus Heim wrote:
>
> There are quite a lot of women composer's writing music for and with the
> guitar nowadays. Much of it has been recorded.
>
> http://www.furore-verlag.de/ specializes in women composers.
>
> Klaus
--
Matanya Ophee
>> Ziffrin's and Aristova's music is something else. Both a sleeper
>> waiting to be discovered.
>
>There are quite a lot of women composer's writing music for and with the
>guitar nowadays. Much of it has been recorded.
>
>http://www.furore-verlag.de/ specializes in women composers.
Two more resources one might look at:
There is a Master's thesis by Deborah L. Nolan called The
Contributions of Nineteenth century European Women to Guitar
performance, Composition and Pedagogy, California State University, at
Fullerton, 1983. Available from University Microfilms on demand.
The work is mainly a discussion of Emilia Giuliani and Giulia and
Catharina Josepha Pelzer. The latter, better known under her
professional name Madame Sidney Pratten, is discussed at great length.
Nolan reproduces many composition by the lady, title pages and all.
None of which contain the hyphenated name Sidny-Pratten.
When you get this book, look into the Acknowledgements page and see
who helped this young woman write her thesis.
The other is a book published by Janna McAuslan under the Musica
Femina imprint in which many biographies of women guitarists are
included. I can't say much about this book, since I have never seen
it. I am not sure if it is still in print.
Klaus Heim
"Phillips Guitar Studio" <phillipsgu...@mediaone.net> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:3C669297...@mediaone.net...
> Yes - and there are more publishers where that came from, if anyone is
> interested. Furore-verlag is quite good. I already posted the link of
> music by women for guitar - plenty of info. in there. Plus MO's
> recommendations.
Is that "Guitar Music by Women Composers" by MacAuslan and Aspen? The link
didn't work for me. I while ago I ordered this book per inter-library loan.
Hasn't arrived yet.
Another web-site being built, but doesn't really work yet.
http://www.unna.de/inka/ . Better to escape the frames:
http://www.unna.de/inka/komptoc/toc.html
Do you play any guitar music by women composers?
Klaus
Phillips Guitar Studio
> S wrote:
>
> > I agree. I did a lot of research on my own college and it's programs and so
> > forth. Which didn't win me many friends.
>
> This is good. The not winning many friends, however, is a probably a good
> example of the the most staunchly fossilized, politically-welded POLITICALLY
> CORRECT marginalizing what THEY label political correctness. Big PC vs
> little pc.
Thanks. Yes. Agreed.
> > But a couple of small changes were
> > made there, as a result. However, the biggest most glaring problem that still
> > exists there is their complete lack of inclusion of _any_ women in history.
>
> Yes, thanks to bright women who have awakened a few hermetic minds, this
> pestilence of absence has finally come into our collective consciousness, at
> least it is started in that direction.
>
Very true. Thankful for that, myself.
> What a story! It makes me feel as if only six inches emerged out of a
> pre-paleolithic stupor. This is, let us call this puny projection, 'The
> Phallic Progress', a term used to denote a the phallacious coverup of a
> historical stall in human cognition by the progressive power of the puny
> penis.
<rolling on ground laughing!!> Yes, it was exhausting. Phallic Progress is an apt
description. And sadly, there were women who were equally as unwilling to take
steps to correct the situation. Not uncommon, this.
> The sad fact, though, is that oppression was indeed obstructive to such an
> extent that I think it remains still those accomplishments of men that even
> managed to come to fruition. Though we can argue that the artistic potential
> is equal between men and women, history witnesses the male-administered
> abortions, still-borns, and infanticides of women's art. But this same group
> sanctioned a guild-trained midwifery and a doting parentage and rearing of
> men's art. There is more extant male art because patriarchies systematically
> obliterated not just women's art, but also their gestational nurture of it.
True. And what did manage to come to fruition, as you say, was DNC'd from the
history books until
very recently.
> The history of western art is a set of twins, one male, fawned over and
> glorified, the other, female, disfigured, then banished to the historical
> badlands of the unknown. The history of western art is the moon, one half
> illuminated and mapped, one half black and unknown. Our histories describes
> this moon as if it were hemispherical, not spherical, as if a bowl full of
> men, not a pearl full of people.
Interesting metaphor. Women live by the moon, day in and day out. When it
changes, we change. Not surprising that it would be difficult for male historians
to see the moon as spherical. But impossible for a woman not to! : )
> I think you're right about the miles-length lead that the visual arts and
> literature enjoy over music, with respect to 'inclusive' curricula. Music,
> or more specifically musical performance, is the by far the most radically
> conservative of the arts. But, I'm sure you'll agree that not all is dark
> and faulty for that seemingly ponderous viscosity. After all, curricula and
> histories are not the arts themselves, only witnesses. Music, probably
> better than any other art, can manifest and remanifest a sort of living,
> singing history of itself in real time, that musical performance is always
> dynamic, not embalmed in stasis, as one might say about painting or
> architecture. Michelangelo is permanently nailed to the Renaissance,
> literally and figuratively; I've seen photos and films of his art, but I've
> never actually seen them for real. Bach lives or is 're-lived' for real
> while I drink my coffee and log onto the internet. I'm at a complete loss to
> draw a useful connection between what appears to be a nefarious historical
> chronicling of music and music's unequaled virtue when it comes to conjuring
> and reconjuring itself, transcending death, history, stasis. A complete
> loss.
>
> The visual arts are monumental and still. Music is ghostly and moving,
> always coming back, the only thing ghosts can do. Come back.
Yes, I am thankful for this. Truly. It is a gift to musicians. It's how I
survived college! : )
> > Yes. True. Fruitless effort, this. How to convince others of the teasing
> > out process, though?
>
> Not a clue. I am a 'liberal ironist', meaning that while I can get all
> up-in-arms about injustices of all sorts, I am resigned. 'Fruitless effort'
> is a good slogan for the liberal ironist. I am resigned because my argument
> is founded on a weak form of liberal relativism. This compels me both to
> rail against cruelty (liberal) and to concede that my own perspective is
> highly localized, peculiarly political, and that it is culturally
> conditioned to particular perspective on correctness (relative), no
> differently than those with whom I disagree.
>
> The goal of the liberal ironist is to learn to survive inside the space of
> precarious hestitations, to manouver through aporetic bewilderment, to find
> minute-to-minute footings in the unsurety of non-closure. There is a
> resigned admission in knowing one knows next to nothing, reminded of this
> impoverishment every time I stare into that infinite, black abyss which
> swallows itself whole just beyond my little campfire.
>
> This is long-winded way to reassert the mortal as finite. The rest is trim.
>
> ***
> rib
Whew. I think I may be, too. I don't know! : ) he-he. I get overwhelmed by it
at times. I then revert to my daily routine and remember my immediate involvement
in things and with people. While I am liberal AND aware of my own localized
peculiarities (to use your description!), I can rest assured that anyone having any
dealings with me can walk away at any time, and I can do the same. There is no
mandate. Outside of the confines of an institution, I feel just fine. The freedom
to know and to know nothing at the same time. Couldn't put a price on it.
S.
Phillips Guitar Studio
I don't envy the other for long at all, either. I remember the energy it takes
to be dogmatic is no less than the energy it takes to be uncertain....
S.
Sam Culotta wrote:
rib rote in message
> >I am resigned because my argument
> is founded on a weak form of liberal relativism. This compels me both to
> rail against cruelty (liberal) and to concede that my own perspective is
> highly localized, peculiarly political, and that it is culturally
> conditioned to particular perspective on correctness (relative), no
> differently than those with whom I disagree<
>
> Ah yes, you describe beautifully the irony of thoughtful liberalism: the
> agony and the ectasy of never being certain of the ground on which you
> stand.
> On the other hand, those who are most offended by such an intellectual and
> moral stance are quite certain of their certainty, so certain that they're
> certain you're wrong.
> I don't have an option here, I only yam what I yam, uncertain. Sometimes I
> envy the other but not for long.
>
> Sam
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
S.
Sam Culotta wrote:
> S. wrote:
>
> >. A revision occurred
> when someone decided to completely negate the contribution of women.
> Musicologist
> as editor.<
>
> This would be called a musicsogynist.
>
> You say musicologist
> I say musicsogynist
>
> ah...let's call the whole thing off.
>
> Sam
>
>
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
the MacAuslan book - it's was kind of the predecessor to what was released
through Greenwood, if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks very much!
S.
Matanya Ophee wrote:
> Two more resources one might look at:
>
> There is a Master's thesis by Deborah L. Nolan called The
> Contributions of Nineteenth century European Women to Guitar
> performance, Composition and Pedagogy, California State University, at
> Fullerton, 1983. Available from University Microfilms on demand.
>
> The work is mainly a discussion of Emilia Giuliani and Giulia and
> Catharina Josepha Pelzer. The latter, better known under her
> professional name Madame Sidney Pratten, is discussed at great length.
> Nolan reproduces many composition by the lady, title pages and all.
> None of which contain the hyphenated name Sidny-Pratten.
>
> When you get this book, look into the Acknowledgements page and see
> who helped this young woman write her thesis.
>
> The other is a book published by Janna McAuslan under the Musica
> Femina imprint in which many biographies of women guitarists are
> included. I can't say much about this book, since I have never seen
> it. I am not sure if it is still in print.
>
> Matanya Ophee
> Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
> 1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
> Columbus, OH 43235-1226
> 614-846-9517
> fax: 614-846-9794
> http://www.orphee.com
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
phillipsgu...@mediaone.net
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"The power and magic of music lie in its
intangibility and its limitlessness. It suggests
images, but leaves us free to choose them and to
accommodate them to our pleasure."
~Wanda Landowska
Landowska on Music (1964)
Phillips Guitar Studio
incredible beauty, as well. NYC is the reason I live in Boston... : ) No
offense to you guys in NY!!!
It's just particularly noticeable after living in a place like Arizona. Very
little filth (in comparison). And sadly, I'm sure you're right - all of these
cities are probably cleaner now than they ever were. Long road, I spose. It's
just weird to see people still fling their McDonald's bag out of the window of
their car (meanwhile their kids are sitting in the car with them soaking it
in....future garbage proliferators of America).
S.
John Wasak wrote:
> Phillips Guitar Studio wrote:
> > My first impression of Boston was how filthy it is.
>
> You ever been to New York City? ;-)
>
> I haven't been in the city of Boston in quite a few years now but I remember
> thinking that it was cleaner than NYC. Though,I'll admit, New York seems
> cleaner to me these days than it used to.
>
> JW
>
> > And how odd it is that you
> > can't see the sky for miles and miles like you can out west. That doesn't
> even
> > scratch the surface of my impression of Boston or New England. It's just
> an
> > observation. I have years of exploring to do before I would be in a
> position to
> > really say I _know_ Boston and can describe its essence. And even then
> it's still
> > just an observation of one.
> >
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
phillipsgu...@mediaone.net
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Phillips Guitar Studio
out, after getting it in English for my sorry non-German speaking
self.....Thanks for the links!!!
Yes sir, I have played some guitar music by women composers....much more to
do, though. The most recent was a little piece for guitar and violin by Terry
Winter Owen - Elegy for the Nephew of Prince Muhkransky. Fun. I've read
through the Three Lullabies by Barbara Kolb, and would like to give it a go.
Lily Afshar just performed here - I bought a copy of her latest CD - she
recorded it. Sounds great. I picked up her arrangement of Five Popular
Persian Ballads while there, too.
Do you play guitar music by women composers?
S.
Klaus Heim wrote:
> Is that "Guitar Music by Women Composers" by MacAuslan and Aspen? The link
> didn't work for me. I while ago I ordered this book per inter-library loan.
> Hasn't arrived yet.
>
> Another web-site being built, but doesn't really work yet.
> http://www.unna.de/inka/ . Better to escape the frames:
> http://www.unna.de/inka/komptoc/toc.html
>
> Do you play any guitar music by women composers?
>
> Klaus
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
phillipsgu...@mediaone.net
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Phillips Guitar Studio
That is one _heck_ of a list!!!!! I'll have to pass that on to a friend!
Thanks! I hadn't seen that particular list.
Off to go pick up couch. Trying to convert newly acquired hovel apt. into
something resembling living quarters.....Although I spose a bed, chair, guitar,
footstool and guitar music is all one _really_ needs.... ;- )
S.
JW wrote:
> Along these lines there's an interesting list of operas and operettas
> composed by women since 1614 (!) (ever hear of any of 'em?) Note: the list
> is lengthy and takes a little time to download.
> http://www.homestead.com/operasbywomen/files/operasbywomen_1.html
--
Richard Spross
> Phillips Guitar Studio <phillipsgu...@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<3C6330CD...@mediaone.net>...
> >
> > > I was over come with emotion after Sharon ISBN's concert last May in >
> > I got to do her sound check with a friend of mine in Phoenix when she premiered the
> > Corigliano there. She gave us tickets for helping her out. I was working part-time
> > at a group home with foster kids as a "foster parent" of sorts. The home I worked in
> > was all teenage boys. These boys had all been taken from their families (if they
> > still had families) and were wards of the state, tribe, etc. They were all involved
> > with gangs, had been to jail multiple times, had almost all od'd on drugs, tattooed,
> > had been sexually and physically abused by family, you name it. And they all had a
> > beef with women. Take it from me - I dodged many a flying chair and insult. They
> > all were into hard core rap. The "uglier" the lyrics and the message, the better.
> > That's how they felt, after all - like big scary ugly gangster kids. I asked Ms.
> > Isbin for enough tickets to take the boys. I got them. I took these boys. They
> > were so unbelievably excited about her concert. Why? because I sat down with them
> > and explained to them why it was exciting for me. Why I loved classical guitar. I
> > explained she was one of my role models. I told them about what kind of work she had
> > to do to prepare. What the composer's history was. How commissioning music works.
> > What kinds of things to expect at the concert. When to clap. When not to clap. I
> > told them we would all be going and we would be wearing our best clothes. Every
> > single one of them pissed and moaned and complained about how nerdy it was, etc., but
> > I'll tell you this much. It was a show. They dug out their best cacky pants, their
> > cleanest socks, their whitest fat shoe laces and least worn adidas. They ironed
> > their shirts, their pants, their shoe laces, and combed their hair twice. Then they
> > all paraded in front of me for inspection, because they didn't want to "look bad".
> > They enjoyed the entire process. THOROUGHLY. After the concert, they couldn't stop
> > talking about it. They had received flyers of hers at the door, which they
> > immediately pinned up on their walls alongside her program and their ticket stubs
> > when they got home. They thought it was cool. Because they "got" it. They were
> > able to make a connection for themselves.
> >
> > Don't lose hope. These boys came around to having a deep and even respect for women
> > and learned to appreciate classical guitar and classical music. That was a
> > springboard for a lot of learning. I could tell you oodles of stories about how
> > these boys branched out as young men and as musical patrons, but I think you get the
> > idea.
> >
> > This was a group of people society had given up on and completely abandoned.
> > Probably the least likely candidates in a lot of people's minds for change. But they
> > changed and changed and changed and changed and changed. Not just themselves, but
> > me, too. : )
>
> Dear Officer Krupkee we're very upset
> We never had the love that every child oughtta get
> We ain't no delinquents, we're misunderstood
> Deep down inside us there is good!
> There is good!
>
> S. Sondheim
>
> That was a wonderful story. Acts like that spread far-reaching good.
> Way to go sister!
>
> Joe
Joe, As no doubt Sheri was moved by Sharon's concert, you are quoting me when you said, " I was overcome with
emotion after Sharon Isbin's concert last May in" snip snip Berkeley, I doubt Sher was here at that time !
Please be careful how you edit. Not to take away from our mutual appreciation of her valor! Thanks, Richard Spross
thomas
> "Greg M. Silverman" wrote:
>
> > All in all,
> > there are many more female performers in classical than in jazz. Can you
> > name a single female jazz guitarist of note (there is a female jazz
> > violinist of some note)? If so, I'll send you a fiver! :-)
>
> Remler, duh! So John, where do you want the fiver sent? :-)
Also Mary Osborne and Sheryl Bailey. Beyond those three names
I don't know of any female jazz guitarists playing at the
top pro level, although there are probably any number out
there who haven't gotten recognition and publicity.
John Wasak
> That is one _heck_ of a list!!!!! I'll have to pass that on to a friend!
> Thanks! I hadn't seen that particular list.
>
You have to wonder how many of those operas have seen an actual performance.
> Off to go pick up couch. Trying to convert newly acquired hovel apt. into
> something resembling living quarters....
I hear ya. I lived two winters in Boston in something aptly defined as
hovering between hovel and living quarters. Left me with fond (?) memories
of sleeping in my coat and boots when the heat stopped working (more often
than I liked!)
Ah! those Winters of my discontent, when the wind off the Charles would go
sailing down Mass. Ave. crashing into the frozen rock that was my uncovered
face. ;-)
.Although I spose a bed, chair, guitar,
> footstool and guitar music is all one _really_ needs.... ;- )
>
> S.
Well, fans of a certain Persian poet might come up with: a loaf of bread, a
jug of wine, and someone named thou, but likely they wouldn't be guitarists!
;-)
JW
Klaus Heim
> I went to the site quickly.....ahem - I'll have to take some time and
check it
> out, after getting it in English for my sorry non-German speaking
> self.....Thanks for the links!!!
>
> Yes sir, I have played some guitar music by women composers....much more
to
> do, though. The most recent was a little piece for guitar and violin by
Terry
> Winter Owen - Elegy for the Nephew of Prince Muhkransky. Fun. I've read
> through the Three Lullabies by Barbara Kolb, and would like to give it a
go.
> Lily Afshar just performed here - I bought a copy of her latest CD - she
> recorded it. Sounds great. I picked up her arrangement of Five Popular
> Persian Ballads while there, too.
>
> Do you play guitar music by women composers?
First, while having given this little study, I see no difference between men
and women composers, so I don't specially seek out one or the other. I play
(or try to in some cases) Franghiz Ali-zade, Ana Torres, Jana Obrovska, and
Sofia Gubaidulina. A piece by Annette Schlünz should be in the mail. If I
find the scores, I'll definitely order the "Sonata" by Elena Poplyanova
(humorous and dramatic piece, full of quotes and allusions, should be fun to
play) and the "Elegy - Homage to Columbus" by Silvie Bodorova (I have not
been convinced by her orchestral works with guitar, but this solo piece is
beautiful). From the Furore catalog I plan to order pieces by Vivienne Olive
and Ruth Schonthal. "Episode septieme" by Betsy Jolas has been recommended
to me. From listening I really like "Go Guitars" by Lois V.Vierk. On my list
of "must write solo pieces for the guitar" are Kaija Saariaho (she has
written chamber music with guitar), Olga Neuwirth (I have a student-level
solo electric guitar piece by her, strange and not very good), Rebecca
Saunders (who has also used the guitar in ensemble settings), Ester Mägi
(the grand old lady of Estonian music, as she is called, her Cantus and
Processus exists in different versions as a duo for guitar and various
instruments), and a few others. If you like Barbara Kolb, you won't get past
David Starobin, who has recorded Three Lullabies, Umbrian Colors, Looking
for Claudio, Spring River Flowers Moon Night. There is an interesting
all-Kolb CD available from CRI ("Soundings" is at times very 'Ligeti').
Klaus
John W. Blossick
>From: Bob Ashley ax...@chebucto.ns.ca
>Date: 2/9/02 5:56 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: wrote:
>But 'historical revisionism', has there ever been
>anything but?
No there hasn't...We are constantly finding new bits of infomation every day.
What I have a problem with are those who revise history by _deleting_the
pivotal figures and events, and the meaning of those events, when they are
found _distasteful_ and no longer fit certain individuals
political/philosophical parameters of today.
>History, in other words tumbling in my mind, anyhoo, always _needs_ revision
>because as time marches on, it finds itself just another of last week's
>essays in 'first draft' form.
I think so too, but not at the expense of omitting much of the truth of what
has been written into the "first draft".. There is some truth in there, isn't
there?
The day that happens, history ends. It's interesting that you use
>PC and historical revisionism in the same sentence, because we don't
>normally first think of history as politically motivated.
I never did myself really, but it is a fact, and it happpens. Text books are
being revised daily. Some individuals doing the revisions _are_ politically
motivated.
Relegating George Washington or Jefferson as a mere footnote in US history, in
my mind, borders on criminal behavior, as does neglecting the role of the
church in European history and Europes influence on the culture and way of life
on our continent...
All of this is politically motivated to somehow expunge the North American
continent of its European heritage, because Europeans were war mongers, slave
traders, religious zealots, and engaged in the conquest of helpless
individuals..Why not footnote their musical contributions too?
>Embarrassingly,
>historical writing in west has made a fetish of the chronicles of military
>generals and emperors. Swords and crowns. Our chronicles describe a cult of
>war.
True, but that is the way it is..History is riddled with war. The conquest of a
land and their people is a common thread in _world_ history.
It would be great if history was full of peace and love, but it is not. We must
not be squamish about the truth.
>That's embarrassing to me. Revisionist, where art thee in this time of
>need!
Perhaps it's embarassing, but the world needs to know why a tyrant like Hitler
needed to be squashed. Revisionists need to keep the good and the bad in there
and not delete what they find embarassing or politically offensive.
>The 'labeling', let us admit, in any political setting, is never exclusively
>a one-way assault of fools against the wise, evil against the wise.
Yes, that's true.When one resorts to a label or a name, in the context of
discussion, productive discussion about any subject ceases to be meaningful.
The name caller has run out of ideas and can no longer defend their position or
say anything meaningful...Yet names help us to identifiy people and their ideas
for purpose of discussion.
"Classical Guitarist" and "Finger Style Guitarist" give us a somewhay hazy
dichotomy as to the focus of each group, where Facist and Democrat give us a
more crystal division.
>That's hard work, though, so most of us just choose a side and start
>shouting over the fence at the other side because that's easy.
Yes it is...When you throw a little mud, you just lose a lot of ground.
Toleration is a commonplace virtue and Chesterton finds a
>clever way to recast it as a tyranny. I like that! The cleverness, that is.
Me too.
>And let's not leave out Chesterton!
Guilty as carged..!
JohnB
Bob Ashley
> I think so too, but not at the expense of omitting much of the truth of what
> has been written into the "first draft".. There is some truth in there, isn't
> there?
Yes, yes, you are right. If we dive to deeper level of delicacy, though,
for me it's not so much a matter of bald omission and indiscriminate
inclusion so much as prominence and backgrounding. History by degrees, in
other words, not by kind.
> Relegating George Washington or Jefferson as a mere footnote in US
> history, in my mind, borders on criminal behavior, as does neglecting the role
> of the church in European history and Europes influence on the culture and way
> of life on our continent...
I don't know which (ir)responsible historian would goes so far as this! Then
again, I assume you refer to 'general' history. In a special sort of
history, say, of mental illness in America, I don't think Washington or
Jefferson would merit much more than a footnote. It depends, then, on what
story wants or needs to told.
> True, but that is the way it is..History is riddled with war. The conquest of
> a land and their people is a common thread in _world_ history. It would be
> great if history was full of peace and love, but it is not. We must not be
> squamish about the truth.
No one, at least to my knowledge, is advocating a utopian, Care Bear
history. Again, I don't support hosing war out of history's abbatoir, but
rather simply wonder to what degree its central prominence marginalizes
other stories, important, but yet untold or half-told. A good example would
be histories of indigenous peoples, say, a political history of the North
American conquest by western Europe, as seen through the sights of aborginal
scholars or elders.
I'm sure you'd agree that such a history would not constitute a 'revision',
but rather a 're-vision'. Another look, in other words.
***
rib
Stephen Griesgraber
Send fiver to:
143 Pioneer St. 2F
Brooklyn, NY 11231
Then call the bet off before I give you 10 more.
tomb...@jhu.edu (thomas) wrote in message news:<7d424f23.02021...@posting.google.com>...
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Steve
Stephen Griesgraber wrote:
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com
John W. Blossick
>From: Bob Ashley ax...@chebucto.ns.ca
>Message-id:
Wrote:
>History by degrees, in
>other words, not by kind.
>
Yes..Well stated, I like that.
>I don't know which (ir)responsible historian would goes so far as this!
Well..there are a few out there. This is but one of many examples, that
happened not too long ago.
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/rongstad/history/military/mhist001.htm
> Then
>again, I assume you refer to 'general' history.
Correct.
>In a special sort of
>history, say, of mental illness in America, I don't think Washington or
>Jefferson would merit much more than a footnote. It depends, then, on what
>story wants or needs to told.
Exactly right.
Freud wouldn't show up in a history of Patton's Third Army either..General
history, as you mention is the key.
>Again, I don't support hosing war out of history's abbatoir, but
>rather simply wonder to what degree its central prominence marginalizes
>other stories, important, but yet untold or half-told.
A good thought though. I wonder too.
I'm sure war marginalizes other worthwile stories, because war is the headline.
Anything less ends up being fodder for some historian to uncover at a later
date..
I don't know why, but considering what you have mentioned, Anne Frank and her
story comes to my mind.
>A good example would
>be histories of indigenous peoples, say, a political history of the North
>American conquest by western Europe, as seen through the sights of aborginal
>scholars or elders.
>
That would be interesting, to be sure. However, there have been other books
that have written history in a "reverse" sort of way. "Bury My Heart at Wounded
Knee" is but one example.
No matter who's eys we look at history through, there is a hinged core sequence
of events binding a whole epoch together
If Historians (no matter which side is writing it) are true to their history,
they can't escape the fact that Black Kettle was killed by Custer at the
Washita, and Custer was killed by the Souix at the Little Big Horn.
When one describes the events with words like "slaughter" and "massacre" the
authors bias is showing, and is obviously attempting to skew his reader in a
certain direction.
>I'm sure you'd agree that such a history would not constitute a 'revision',
>but rather a 're-vision'. Another look, in other words.
>
Yes, I agree,_ re-vision_ is a good way to articulate it.
For a little laugh, check out this satirical PC primer..What makes it so
hilarious, is it is based on the truth.
http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/htmldocs/pc.html
JohnB
Bob Ashley
-snip but read in agreement-
> No matter who's eys we look at history through, there is a hinged core
> sequence of events binding a whole epoch together.
Yes, the same events irrespective of perspective. Trouble is, events
present cannot re-present themselves, only perspectives enjoying that
privilege. And every representation privileges certain aspects of your
'hinged core sequence of events' while it shunts other aspects into the
shadows. Again, history by degree, not in kind. The collapse of Enron is one
event, but the potential diversity in re-presenting the event is limitless.
The core or sequence you speak of becomes the site of the very struggle
between countervailing chronicles.
> If Historians (no matter which side is writing it) are true to their history,
> they can't escape the fact that Black Kettle was killed by Custer at the
> Washita, and Custer was killed by the Souix at the Little Big Horn.
> When one describes the events with words like "slaughter" and "massacre" the
> authors bias is showing, and is obviously attempting to skew his reader in a
> certain direction.
History is not facts. That's a database. Facts are reptilian in their cold
detachment from meaning. History is the telling and retelling of that glue
which binds the facts into intelligible narrative structures of meaning.
Facts, in and of themselves, have no real meaning apart from this
interrelatedness to each other. Gravity is a fact and so is Galileo, but the
interrelatedness of Galileo and gravity is history, that is, an
interpretative enterprise. Words like 'slaughter' and 'massacre' only appear
skewed to those who disagree with their interpretative values. And we might
call a friend 'persistent', but if this person turns and becomes our enemy,
though he still possess the exact same characteristics, we now call him
'obstinate'. His 'core' constancy is really immaterial, but how that
constancy relates to us is monumental, calling for a new vocabulary when the
relationship changes. This is one reason why history is one of the
humanities, not one of the sciences. History is more intractable, more
incorrigible, more capricious, more viscous, than the good old reliable fact
of gravity.
History can force itself on law, but law can't force itself on history.
***
rib
Klaus Heim
"John W. Blossick" <jblo...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20020211180044...@mb-ms.aol.com...
>
> That would be interesting, to be sure. However, there have been other
books
> that have written history in a "reverse" sort of way. "Bury My Heart at
Wounded
> Knee" is but one example.
Well, "reverse" is only from your position. Likewise the American Indians
can also ask how Columbus could possibly have discovered America, when they
were already living there. To them the question who discovered Europe may be
of more importance.
Klaus
John W. Blossick
>Date: 2/12/02 1:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>Well, "reverse" is only from your position. Likewise the American Indians
>can also ask how Columbus could possibly have discovered America, when they
>were already living there. To them the question who discovered Europe may be
>of more importance.
>
Yes, thats true.
I suppose "reverse" would depend upon which side of the window one is looking
through. I'm sure the history of the America's industrial revolution would look
somewhat different when written by a Corporate magnate vs.the writings from a
steel mill worker.
JohnB
John W. Blossick
>Date: 2/11/02 8:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
<snip>
>The collapse of Enron is one
>event, but the potential diversity in re-presenting the event is limitless.
>The core or sequence you speak of becomes the site of the very struggle
>between countervailing chronicles.
I understand what you mean. Consulting more than one source to get to the core
of the historical facts of an event is where the historians work really takes
place. The more responsible the historian, the more sources they will consult
to verify their findings. MO is living proof of this.
>History is not facts. That's a database. Facts are reptilian in their cold
>detachment from meaning. History is the telling and retelling of that glue
>which binds the facts into intelligible narrative structures of meaning.
Art some point, I believe the historian will need to build a foundation which
to build their narrative, and decide what sort of historical narrative they
want to write.The foundation should be built on fact.How to write the narrative
becomes the question. Is is a popular style appealing to the masses? Is the
narrative a moral and ethical commentary on historic events, or will it be an
academic, dry, text book with "just the facts"..or, a combination of all of the
above.
>Facts, in and of themselves, have no real meaning apart from this
>interrelatedness to each other. Gravity is a fact and so is Galileo, but the
>interrelatedness of Galileo and gravity is history, that is, an
>interpretative enterprise.
Couldn't we treat it as two issues? The discovery of gravity vs. the life of
the one who discovered gravity? Would you see Segovia and his contributions to
the music world as a different issue than say, his political beliefs?...Or,
were/are they so intertwined we can't separate the two?
>. This is one reason why history is one of the
>humanities, not one of the sciences. History is more intractable, more
>incorrigible, more capricious, more viscous, than the good old reliable fact
>of gravity.
Yes, history is...Yet, there is danger to the historian and the scientist. The
danger being, to embark upon a quest with a built in set of presuppositions,
which, eventually, will derail the whole historical/scientific process form the
very beginning...We end up ignoring facts which may prove us wrong, yet
validate the presuposition.
A historical biography which begins with the presupposition that "Segovia was,
is, and will forever be the world's greatest guitarist", will turn out a bit
different than a work that begins with the idea of "Segovia, who was this man?"
Don't you think so..? Which version would be the more reliable text?
JohnB
Matanya Ophee
>Well, "reverse" is only from your position. Likewise the American Indians
>can also ask how Columbus could possibly have discovered America, when they
>were already living there.
Of course he did not "discover" America. Amerigo Vespucci did, and the
vikings even before that, and the "indians" themselves discovered it
even before that. One cannot discover what is there all along.
BTW, Christopher Columbus is said to be the patron Saint of
politicians. Why? He had no idea where he was going, did not know what
it was when he got there, and he did it all with other people's money.
Klaus Heim
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:s3fi6u0dulge51qt3...@4ax.com...
> "Klaus Heim" <klh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, "reverse" is only from your position. Likewise the American Indians
> >can also ask how Columbus could possibly have discovered America, when
they
> >were already living there.
>
> Of course he did not "discover" America. Amerigo Vespucci did, and the
> vikings even before that, and the "indians" themselves discovered it
> even before that. One cannot discover what is there all along.
>
> BTW, Christopher Columbus is said to be the patron Saint of
> politicians. Why? He had no idea where he was going, did not know what
> it was when he got there, and he did it all with other people's money.
Is Columbus Day still an official holiday in the US?
Klaus
Matanya Ophee
>
>Is Columbus Day still an official holiday in the US?
It is here, in Columbus, Ohio.
Bob Ashley
> Art some point, I believe the historian will need to build a foundation which
> to build their narrative, and decide what sort of historical narrative they
> want to write.The foundation should be built on fact.How to write the
> narrative becomes the question. Is is a popular style appealing to the
> masses? Is the narrative a moral and ethical commentary on historic events, or
> will it be an academic, dry, text book with "just the facts"..or, a
> combination of all of the above.
Yes, these are all reasonable questions. The presumption of a 'foundation',
however, you've presented it as largely unproblematic. You see, I'd make the
foundation of history, if I thought there even was such a thing, that from
which it draws its own name, i.e., 'story'. In history there is nothing more
or less 'foundational', or if there is, facts are just an undifferentiated
heap mere bricks, not a fully constituted, complete foundation. Of facts as
bricks, my story's design will variously build a wall, a bridge, a basement,
a bungalow, a monument.
> Couldn't we treat it as two issues? The discovery of gravity vs. the life of
> the one who discovered gravity?
Even at the minute level of the noun phrase you have not separated the
issues, a)the life of the one who discovered...? b) gravity. There is an
interesting interrelationship, I think, which we separate at our peril.
>Would you see Segovia and his contributions to
> the music world as a different issue than say, his political beliefs?...Or,
> were/are they so intertwined we can't separate the two?
No, I would tend to keep these issues separate, as you suggest, except of
course in biography, which happens to be a historical form. The topic of
Segovia's contributions to the music world is not historical, but critical
issue. Though this criticism does have historical dimension, the overall
narrative function is different. Unless, of course, the narrative function
is a 'critical history'.
> A historical biography which begins with the presupposition that "Segovia was,
> is, and will forever be the world's greatest guitarist", will turn out a bit
> different than a work that begins with the idea of "Segovia, who was this
> man?" Don't you think so..? Which version would be the more reliable text?
Your first instance I'd hestitate to label a 'historical biography', but
rather a eulogistic testimonial, an homage, a textual celebration of the
life-and-times sort. A valid, popular sort of genre, no doubt, but not
history really. Of the second instance, well, perhaps it's a good start to a
historical biography, but we would do well to keep our critical judgment of
its reliability in reserve until after having read it. Quite anything from
brilliant scholarship to idiotic incompetence might well flesh out that
innocent opening query.
Returning to the original subject of political correctness and revisionist
history, I think we might agree that these are not facile matters, that they
are quite complex, and that patent answers offered on either side of the
fence will never do.
***
rib
--
thomas
> Leni Stern.
Oops, forgot about her. Also forgot Mimi Fox out of SF.
Greg M. Silverman
>gries...@mindspring.com (Stephen Griesgraber) wrote in message news:<9603708d.02021...@posting.google.com>...
>
>>Leni Stern.
>>
>Oops, forgot about her. Also forgot Mimi Fox out of SF.
>
Okay... before EVERYONE demands a fiver... the only one who rightfully
gets one is John Wasak, since he came up with the only female jazz
guitarist _of note_ -- that being Emily Remler.
I am definitely glad that there are more women playing guitar in jazz,
but unfortunately, I don't think any of these named are very well
known... I certainly hope that changes though!
>>Send fiver to:
>>143 Pioneer St. 2F
>>Brooklyn, NY 11231
>>
>>Then call the bet off before I give you 10 more.
>>
Consider it done! :-)
Cheers!
Greg--
John W. Blossick
>From: Bob Ashley ax...@chebucto.ns.ca
>Message-id:
wrote:
<snippng some good points made by Bob>
>Unless, of course, the narrative function
>is a 'critical history'.
Yes, that is what I had in mind.
>Returning to the original subject of political correctness and revisionist
>history, I think we might agree that these are not facile matters, that they
>are quite complex, and that patent answers offered on either side of the
>fence will never do.
They are thorny issues to grapple with.
Yet when the dust has settled, I'm still left to wonder, is what I just read
the truth? Is the account an accurate chronicle of historical event XYZ.
Approaching what we read with a certain amount of skeptecism is a healthy
thing.
There are reliable authors that nail their history dead on target, I'm sure of
it.
Even the skeptic must admit at least _one_ truth. The skeptic _is_ skeptical
JohnB
Mike P.
Mimi Fox. See http://www.mimifoxjazzguitar.com/
> > (there is a female jazz violinist of some note)?
Not sure if your question mark applies to what's in the parens or not.
Just in case: Regina Carter.
Mike P.
Greg M. Silverman
Yes... that was her name... no the question mark did not apply, but I
couldn't for the life of me remember her name!
Danke Schoen!
Greg--
William D Clinger
> Of course he did not "discover" America. Amerigo Vespucci did, and the
> vikings even before that, and the "indians" themselves discovered it
> even before that. One cannot discover what is there all along.
This, like most history, confuses me. If one cannot discover what
is there all along, then how did the natives, Vikings, and Vespucci
do it? And why did Columbus not discover America but Vespucci did,
given that Columbus's voyage was before Vespucci's? Is it because
Columbus thought he had reached Asia, but Vespucci realized he had
not?
Will
arthur ness
University, here in Boston, "Fluffy Ruffle Girls: Women in Ragtime"
(Northeastern 9003-CD, produced by Steven Ledbetter!). It has rags by
13 different female composers, something that surprised me. And the
music is excellent, and played with such sensitivity. It is one of my
favorite CDs. Most of the rags were composed around 1905-11, but
there is one from 1975 by Greg's colleague at the U of Minn, Judith
Lang Zaimont.
Now someone should arrange some of these for guitar.
ajn
Matanya Ophee
Well, you want to draw me into a dance on a pin head? I'll put this in
the form of a challenge to you: define "discover."
Columbus himself did not think he discovered America because America
as a concept did not exists yet. Neither did Vespucci, not the vikings
nor the Indians, and for the same reasons. All we are dealing with
today, is an examination of who got here first. That is still an open
question. I read about some archeological findings that suggest that
the first inhabitants of this continent were of European extraction,
not Asian. May be.
John Wasak
> Okay... before EVERYONE demands a fiver... the only one who rightfully
> gets one is John Wasak, since he came up with the only female jazz
> guitarist _of note_ -- that being Emily Remler.
>
Smart move, Greg. Before you know it you could be sending out all the
fivers you own just on specious claims that a Betty Lou Ricardo or a Thelma
Louise Mertz have chops that burn. Open wagering over the internet is risky
business! ;-)
As for the fiver, since you yourself immediately recognized your oversight
of Emily and posted so, I'd say the fiver should stay in your pocket. Or
maybe tape it to your computer as a reminder of the sorrows of hasty
utterance. ;-)
JW
John Wasak
Didn't know you were looking for the name!
Regina Carter appears on the cover and as feature profile in the current
"Strings" magazine. Article can be found at
http://www.stringsmagazine.com/issues/strings100/coverstory.html
JW
thomas
>
> Okay... before EVERYONE demands a fiver... the only one who rightfully
> gets one is John Wasak, since he came up with the only female jazz
> guitarist _of note_ -- that being Emily Remler.
>
> I am definitely glad that there are more women playing guitar in jazz,
> but unfortunately, I don't think any of these named are very well
> known... I certainly hope that changes though!
Mary Osborne was very well known in her day. She cut an album
entitled "Cats vs. Chicks" in which she traded solos with Tal
Farlow. Leni Stern has had a longer and more productive recording
career than Emily Remler. Just because *you* have never heard these
musicians does not mean that their careers are off the radar.
John Wasak
> Mary Osborne was very well known in her day. She cut an album
> entitled "Cats vs. Chicks" in which she traded solos with Tal
> Farlow.
>
Also a late '50's recording "Now and Then" w/ Tommy Flanagan, piano; and Jo
Jones, drums, Tommy Potter, bass.
She recorded with Coleman Hawkins, Mary Lou Williams, Mercer Ellington and
others. I used to have a Billie Holiday video where Holiday sings "Don't
Explain" backed by Mary Osborne on guitar along with Mal Waldron on piano
and a few other musicians.
Mary Osborne definitely could be considered as a guitarist "of note".
JW
Greg M. Silverman
fine! mea culpa! I stand corrected on many counts! sorry! :-)
Greg--
Bob Ashley
> Yes, that is what I had in mind.
Nice chat, even if we attract trouble for off-topicality.
> Approaching what we read with a certain amount of skeptecism is a healthy
> thing. There are reliable authors that nail their history dead on target, I'm
> sure of it. Even the skeptic must admit at least _one_ truth. The skeptic
> _is_ skeptical
I've always thought of skepticism, at least the hard-line variety, as
self-refuting. It requires a firm loyalty, a subjective hold on a certain
philosophical outlook. The healthiest skepticism, therefore, affords the its
own outlook no special status.
The best crap-detectors, therefore, run on AC current, not DC. Unfortunately
most skepticism is meekly powered by AA disposable batteries.
Now cynism! That's another story! My middle name and I loathe it as only a
card-carrying cynic can!
***
rib
--
John W. Blossick
>From: Bob Ashley ax...@chebucto.ns.ca
>Message-id:
>Nice chat, even if we attract trouble for off-topicality.
Yup...Ditto.
>Now cynism! That's another story! My middle name and I loathe it as only a
>card-carrying cynic can!
No way..I don't believe you..:)
JohnB