> She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> Stravinsky.
"A pianistic practice prominent at the turn of the century, playing the melody
note slightly after the accompaniment—especially on the downbeat
("splitting the hands"), may represent a degeneration of the true
contrametric separation of melody and accompaniment.
Arpeggiating or breaking chords, another mannerism of late romantic pianism heard in early piano rolls and recordings, was often used in "affective" performance in the belief that it made the sound fuller and more sensuous."
Segovia's strong tendency to use agogic rubato (Segoviagogic ...) is totally understandable in light of this exposé. I don't think he ever pay back for all the stolen time except for now ... where the critics of today, lacking the historical context of his style well explain in this article, vilify his use of a rubato style that was still in use during his formative days, which mean (thank the gods) that he would have bean subject to it's influence ...
A good example of rubato (implying stolen time and restitution) in guitar literature (I think) can be found in the HVL Choro # 1 passage, at the end of the third section (the one with the E major first inversion septolet arppegio preceded by two big eye brows fermata).
Long week-end! a Reading this article, coffee in hand, was a perfect way to start the day! Thanks for posting it.
> > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > Stravinsky.
> "A pianistic practice prominent at the turn of the century, playing the melody
> note slightly after the accompaniment—especially on the downbeat
> ("splitting the hands"), may represent a degeneration of the true
> contrametric separation of melody and accompaniment.
> Arpeggiating or breaking chords, another mannerism of late romantic pianism heard in early piano rolls and recordings, was often used in "affective" performance in the belief that it made the sound fuller and more sensuous."
> Segovia's strong tendency to use agogic rubato (Segoviagogic ...) is totally understandable in light of this exposé. I don't think he ever pay back for all the stolen time except for now ... where the critics of today, lacking the historical context of his style well explain in this article, vilify his use of a rubato style that was still in use during his formative days, which mean (thank the gods) that he would have bean subject to it's influence ...
> A good example of rubato (implying stolen time and restitution) in guitar literature (I think) can be found in the HVL Choro # 1 passage, at the end of the third section (the one with the E major first inversion septolet arppegio preceded by two big eye brows fermata).
> Long week-end! a Reading this article, coffee in hand, was a perfect way to start the day! Thanks for posting it.
> Alain
Explained ... (of course)
Since the 1950s and the growth of interest in historically oriented performance, adherence to the score has led some performers to neglect the unwritten breathing and subtle agogic elasticity that music must have.
Interesting, putting together some of Dimick's endorsements of John Williams' "sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself"; with that Prelude he posted, doesn't really compute to me. But then, perhaps art does not need to compute.
> > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > Stravinsky.
> > "A pianistic practice prominent at the turn of the century, playing the melody
> > note slightly after the accompaniment—especially on the downbeat
> > ("splitting the hands"), may represent a degeneration of the true
> > contrametric separation of melody and accompaniment.
> > Arpeggiating or breaking chords, another mannerism of late romantic pianism heard in early piano rolls and recordings, was often used in "affective" performance in the belief that it made the sound fuller and more sensuous."
> > Segovia's strong tendency to use agogic rubato (Segoviagogic ...) is totally understandable in light of this exposé. I don't think he ever pay back for all the stolen time except for now ... where the critics of today, lacking the historical context of his style well explain in this article, vilify his use of a rubato style that was still in use during his formative days, which mean (thank the gods) that he would have bean subject to it's influence ...
> > A good example of rubato (implying stolen time and restitution) in guitar literature (I think) can be found in the HVL Choro # 1 passage, at the end of the third section (the one with the E major first inversion septolet arppegio preceded by two big eye brows fermata).
> > Long week-end! a Reading this article, coffee in hand, was a perfect way to start the day! Thanks for posting it.
> > Alain
> Explained ... (of course)
> Since the 1950s and the growth of interest in historically oriented performance, adherence to the score has led some performers to neglect the unwritten breathing and subtle agogic elasticity that music must have.
On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:12:47 AM UTC-8, Cactus Wren wrote:
> Interesting, putting together some of Dimick's endorsements of John Williams' "sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself"; with that Prelude he posted, doesn't really compute to me. But then, perhaps art does not need to compute.
> I did like Jason's rendition.
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:19:06 AM UTC-7, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > On Monday, November 12, 2012 9:14:31 AM UTC-8, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:06:44 PM UTC-8, JPD wrote:
> > > > The Uses of Rubato in Music, Eighteenth to Twentieth Centuries
> > > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > > Stravinsky.
> > > "A pianistic practice prominent at the turn of the century, playing the melody
> > > note slightly after the accompaniment—especially on the downbeat
> > > ("splitting the hands"), may represent a degeneration of the true
> > > contrametric separation of melody and accompaniment.
> > > Arpeggiating or breaking chords, another mannerism of late romantic pianism heard in early piano rolls and recordings, was often used in "affective" performance in the belief that it made the sound fuller and more sensuous."
> > > Segovia's strong tendency to use agogic rubato (Segoviagogic ...) is totally understandable in light of this exposé. I don't think he ever pay back for all the stolen time except for now ... where the critics of today, lacking the historical context of his style well explain in this article, vilify his use of a rubato style that was still in use during his formative days, which mean (thank the gods) that he would have bean subject to it's influence ...
> > > A good example of rubato (implying stolen time and restitution) in guitar literature (I think) can be found in the HVL Choro # 1 passage, at the end of the third section (the one with the E major first inversion septolet arppegio preceded by two big eye brows fermata).
> > > Long week-end! a Reading this article, coffee in hand, was a perfect way to start the day! Thanks for posting it.
> > > Alain
> > Explained ... (of course)
> > Since the 1950s and the growth of interest in historically oriented performance, adherence to the score has led some performers to neglect the unwritten breathing and subtle agogic elasticity that music must have.
> > Heu ... that would be JW!
Hm. I think I understand what JW does ("sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself") and I enjoy hearing him do it. But if "endorsement" means I think it's the only proper approach, or it's the only recommendable approach, then no, I don't endorse that.
I like letting the music speak, of course, but not at the cost of letting the instrument speak. Otherwise I'd listen to MIDI files and be done with.
On Monday, November 12, 2012 11:48:21 AM UTC-8, JPD wrote:
> I like letting the music speak, of course, but not at the cost of letting the instrument speak. Otherwise I'd listen to MIDI files and be done with.
I congratulate you on this excellent line of thought.
On Monday, November 12, 2012 11:48:21 AM UTC-8, JPD wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:12:47 AM UTC-8, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > Interesting, putting together some of Dimick's endorsements of John Williams' "sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself"; with that Prelude he posted, doesn't really compute to me. But then, perhaps art does not need to compute.
> > I did like Jason's rendition.
> > On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:19:06 AM UTC-7, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 12, 2012 9:14:31 AM UTC-8, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:06:44 PM UTC-8, JPD wrote:
> > > > > The Uses of Rubato in Music, Eighteenth to Twentieth Centuries
> > > > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > > > Stravinsky.
> > > > "A pianistic practice prominent at the turn of the century, playing the melody
> > > > note slightly after the accompaniment—especially on the downbeat
> > > > ("splitting the hands"), may represent a degeneration of the true
> > > > contrametric separation of melody and accompaniment.
> > > > Arpeggiating or breaking chords, another mannerism of late romantic pianism heard in early piano rolls and recordings, was often used in "affective" performance in the belief that it made the sound fuller and more sensuous."
> > > > Segovia's strong tendency to use agogic rubato (Segoviagogic ...) is totally understandable in light of this exposé. I don't think he ever pay back for all the stolen time except for now ... where the critics of today, lacking the historical context of his style well explain in this article, vilify his use of a rubato style that was still in use during his formative days, which mean (thank the gods) that he would have bean subject to it's influence ...
> > > > A good example of rubato (implying stolen time and restitution) in guitar literature (I think) can be found in the HVL Choro # 1 passage, at the end of the third section (the one with the E major first inversion septolet arppegio preceded by two big eye brows fermata).
> > > > Long week-end! a Reading this article, coffee in hand, was a perfect way to start the day! Thanks for posting it.
> > > > Alain
> > > Explained ... (of course)
> > > Since the 1950s and the growth of interest in historically oriented performance, adherence to the score has led some performers to neglect the unwritten breathing and subtle agogic elasticity that music must have.
> > > Heu ... that would be JW!
> Hm. I think I understand what JW does ("sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself") and I enjoy hearing him do it. But if "endorsement" means I think it's the only proper approach, or it's the only recommendable approach, then no, I don't endorse that.
> I like letting the music speak, of course, but not at the cost of letting the instrument speak. Otherwise I'd listen to MIDI files and be done with.
> Now here's a guy, Sanel Redzic, playing the Chaconne, who loves the sound of his guitar and never shorts it:
> She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> Stravinsky.
I gather that "contracentric" rubato is rubato and "agogic"
rubato is something else. I cannot go along with the slightly
nutty proposition that if the "robbed" time is not paid back
that it is still some kind of rubato. Non-rubato rubato is
just rationalization of clumsy and inept playing. "Taking
liberties" is a better term, well worn, neutral and honest
without a pseudoscientific gloss.
Have you noticed that "taking liberties" always refers to
the rhythm?
I like Choros #1 slower, and with a steady tempo. I always wanted
to try it with bass and drums. Without a beat, the thing has
no rhythm and it just sounds nervous. I just can't see it. Try it
"my" way and see what you think. And the rests matter, big time.
"Choros" means "tears" in Portuguese. Of course that doesn't
mean all the songs are sad, any more than a blues band always
has the blues, but can you imagine a blues band without a
beat? I didn't think so.
Yes I am on your side for the slower Choro # 1, I like it that way too. I played it long time ago with a bongo player and it was really fun, in such a setting you do have to keep a study tactus!
> She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> Stravinsky.
In Heck's bio of Giuliani, there is record of a mention of a young
French pianist coming to Vienna and playing in a "French" rubato style
that was unusual and considered somewhat novel for the time. I am
wondering, now, what that was about. I am also wondering the impact of
the advent of the measure line(or absence of it) in the perception of
rubato-like interpretation in early renaissance.
Also, listening to Granados perform his own pieces on piano, I do not
get a sense of much rubato - certainly not like the interpretation of
Segovia. Were they not of the same era (though not of the same
education).
On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:12:47 AM UTC-8, Cactus Wren wrote:
> Interesting, putting together some of Dimick's endorsements of John Williams' "sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself"; with that Prelude he posted, doesn't really compute to me. But then, perhaps art does not need to compute.
> I did like Jason's rendition.
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:19:06 AM UTC-7, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > On Monday, November 12, 2012 9:14:31 AM UTC-8, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:06:44 PM UTC-8, JPD wrote:
> > > > The Uses of Rubato in Music, Eighteenth to Twentieth Centuries
> > > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > > Stravinsky.
> > > "A pianistic practice prominent at the turn of the century, playing the melody
> > > note slightly after the accompaniment—especially on the downbeat
> > > ("splitting the hands"), may represent a degeneration of the true
> > > contrametric separation of melody and accompaniment.
> > > Arpeggiating or breaking chords, another mannerism of late romantic pianism heard in early piano rolls and recordings, was often used in "affective" performance in the belief that it made the sound fuller and more sensuous."
> > > Segovia's strong tendency to use agogic rubato (Segoviagogic ...) is totally understandable in light of this exposé. I don't think he ever pay back for all the stolen time except for now ... where the critics of today, lacking the historical context of his style well explain in this article, vilify his use of a rubato style that was still in use during his formative days, which mean (thank the gods) that he would have bean subject to it's influence ...
> > > A good example of rubato (implying stolen time and restitution) in guitar literature (I think) can be found in the HVL Choro # 1 passage, at the end of the third section (the one with the E major first inversion septolet arppegio preceded by two big eye brows fermata).
> > > Long week-end! a Reading this article, coffee in hand, was a perfect way to start the day! Thanks for posting it.
> > > Alain
> > Explained ... (of course)
> > Since the 1950s and the growth of interest in historically oriented performance, adherence to the score has led some performers to neglect the unwritten breathing and subtle agogic elasticity that music must have.
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:27:01 -0800, JPD wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:41:49 PM UTC-8, daveA wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 17:06:44 -0800, JPD wrote:
>> > The Uses of Rubato in Music, Eighteenth to Twentieth Centuries Sandra
>> > P.
>> > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
>> > Stravinsky.
>> I gather that "contracentric" rubato is rubato and "agogic"
>> rubato is something else.
> Nope. The terms are well-explained in the article. I'd re-explain them
> here, but I figure if you really wanted to know, you'd consult the
> article.
You got that right. Agogic and contracentric? BS detector
goes off, deafeningly. I have read what Mendelssohn and
Paderewski had to say on the subject. That's good enough,
and authoritative enough, for me. ;-) Regards, daveA
I hear you, I guess a variety of approaches that work is one of the wonders of classical music, and art in general. I'll give that Chaconne a listen soon. You kind of have to plan a block of time for that :)
On Monday, November 12, 2012 12:48:21 PM UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:12:47 AM UTC-8, Cactus Wren wrote:
> > Interesting, putting together some of Dimick's endorsements of John Williams' "sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself"; with that Prelude he posted, doesn't really compute to me. But then, perhaps art does not need to compute.
> > I did like Jason's rendition.
> > On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:19:06 AM UTC-7, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 12, 2012 9:14:31 AM UTC-8, Fadosolrélamisi wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:06:44 PM UTC-8, JPD wrote:
> > > > > The Uses of Rubato in Music, Eighteenth to Twentieth Centuries
> > > > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > > > Stravinsky.
> > > > "A pianistic practice prominent at the turn of the century, playing the melody
> > > > note slightly after the accompaniment—especially on the downbeat
> > > > ("splitting the hands"), may represent a degeneration of the true
> > > > contrametric separation of melody and accompaniment.
> > > > Arpeggiating or breaking chords, another mannerism of late romantic pianism heard in early piano rolls and recordings, was often used in "affective" performance in the belief that it made the sound fuller and more sensuous."
> > > > Segovia's strong tendency to use agogic rubato (Segoviagogic ...) is totally understandable in light of this exposé. I don't think he ever pay back for all the stolen time except for now ... where the critics of today, lacking the historical context of his style well explain in this article, vilify his use of a rubato style that was still in use during his formative days, which mean (thank the gods) that he would have bean subject to it's influence ...
> > > > A good example of rubato (implying stolen time and restitution) in guitar literature (I think) can be found in the HVL Choro # 1 passage, at the end of the third section (the one with the E major first inversion septolet arppegio preceded by two big eye brows fermata).
> > > > Long week-end! a Reading this article, coffee in hand, was a perfect way to start the day! Thanks for posting it.
> > > > Alain
> > > Explained ... (of course)
> > > Since the 1950s and the growth of interest in historically oriented performance, adherence to the score has led some performers to neglect the unwritten breathing and subtle agogic elasticity that music must have.
> > > Heu ... that would be JW!
> Hm. I think I understand what JW does ("sticking to the score", "letting the music speak for itself") and I enjoy hearing him do it. But if "endorsement" means I think it's the only proper approach, or it's the only recommendable approach, then no, I don't endorse that.
> I like letting the music speak, of course, but not at the cost of letting the instrument speak. Otherwise I'd listen to MIDI files and be done with.
> Now here's a guy, Sanel Redzic, playing the Chaconne, who loves the sound of his guitar and never shorts it:
> > > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > > Stravinsky.
> > > In Heck's bio of Giuliani, there is record of a mention of a young
> > > French pianist coming to Vienna and playing in a "French" rubato style
> > > that was unusual and considered somewhat novel for the time. I am
> > > wondering, now, what that was about. I am also wondering the impact of
> > > the advent of the measure line(or absence of it) in the perception of
> > > rubato-like interpretation in early renaissance.
> > > Also, listening to Granados perform his own pieces on piano, I do not
> > > get a sense of much rubato - certainly not like the interpretation of
> > > Segovia. Were they not of the same era (though not of the same
> > > education).
> > > Kevin Taylor
> > French rubato? Must be the stolen time he took to wink at the ladies sitting in the first row.
> It was actually a French female pianist.
> K.
That's the sole advantage we have over the English language (some would see it as a disadvantage though ...) In French we do have the "feminin", the "masculin" (which does not hide or create ambiguity as to the gender we write or talk about) and a third genre called neutral masculin (a lesser known genre that when used encompasses all genders Ex: Les hommes sur cette terre n'arriveront jamais à s'entendre ... Les hommes could be seen as "men", but the lense of the neutral masculin allow for a wider interpretation where les hommes would be representing all humans living on this planet.
All that to say that gender hidden or not, now that you have revealed that she was in fact a French female pianist, I see nothing wrong with the possibility that she would wink at the ladies sitting in the first row ...
> > > > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > > > Stravinsky.
> > > > In Heck's bio of Giuliani, there is record of a mention of a young
> > > > French pianist coming to Vienna and playing in a "French" rubato style
> > > > that was unusual and considered somewhat novel for the time. I am
> > > > wondering, now, what that was about. I am also wondering the impact of
> > > > the advent of the measure line(or absence of it) in the perception of
> > > > rubato-like interpretation in early renaissance.
> > > > Also, listening to Granados perform his own pieces on piano, I do not
> > > > get a sense of much rubato - certainly not like the interpretation of
> > > > Segovia. Were they not of the same era (though not of the same
> > > > education).
> > > > Kevin Taylor
> > > French rubato? Must be the stolen time he took to wink at the ladies sitting in the first row.
> > It was actually a French female pianist.
> > K.
> That's the sole advantage we have over the English language (some would see it as a disadvantage though ...) In French we do have the "feminin", the "masculin" (which does not hide or create ambiguity as to the gender we write or talk about) and a third genre called neutral masculin (a lesser known genre that when used encompasses all genders Ex: Les hommes sur cette terre n'arriveront jamais à s'entendre ... Les hommes could be seen as "men", but the lense of the neutral masculin allow for a wider interpretation where les hommes would be representing all humans living on this planet.
> All that to say that gender hidden or not, now that you have revealed that she was in fact a French female pianist, I see nothing wrong with the possibility that she would wink at the ladies sitting in the first row ...
Now ... well ...check this ... this post might be flagged for abuse ...
> > > > > > She talks about agogic and contrametric rubato, from Luis Milan to
> > > > > > Stravinsky.
> > > > > In Heck's bio of Giuliani, there is record of a mention of a young
> > > > > French pianist coming to Vienna and playing in a "French" rubato style
> > > > > that was unusual and considered somewhat novel for the time. I am
> > > > > wondering, now, what that was about. I am also wondering the impact of
> > > > > the advent of the measure line(or absence of it) in the perception of
> > > > > rubato-like interpretation in early renaissance.
> > > > > Also, listening to Granados perform his own pieces on piano, I do not
> > > > > get a sense of much rubato - certainly not like the interpretation of
> > > > > Segovia. Were they not of the same era (though not of the same
> > > > > education).
> > > > > Kevin Taylor
> > > > French rubato? Must be the stolen time he took to wink at the ladies sitting in the first row.
> > > It was actually a French female pianist.
> > > K.
> > That's the sole advantage we have over the English language (some would see it as a disadvantage though ...) In French we do have the "feminin", the "masculin" (which does not hide or create ambiguity as to the gender we write or talk about) and a third genre called neutral masculin (a lesser known genre that when used encompasses all genders Ex: Les hommes sur cette terre n'arriveront jamais à s'entendre ... Les hommes could be seen as "men", but the lense of the neutral masculin allow for a wider interpretation where les hommes would be representing all humans living on this planet.
> > All that to say that gender hidden or not, now that you have revealed that she was in fact a French female pianist, I see nothing wrong with the possibility that she would wink at the ladies sitting in the first row ...
> Now ... well ...check this ... this post might be flagged for abuse ...
I have to concede that I was wrong in my prediction ... this post hasn't been flagged for abuse. Et oui ... sometimes our predictions do not turn out the way we think they would.
> I have to concede that I was wrong in my prediction ... this post hasn't been flagged for abuse. Et oui ... sometimes our predictions do not turn out the way we think they would.
Predictions never turn out exactly the way we see them in our minds eye. There is a certain rubato to predictions.... :-)
On Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:09:55 PM UTC-8, Charlie wrote:
> > I have to concede that I was wrong in my prediction ... this post hasn't been flagged for abuse. Et oui ... sometimes our predictions do not turn out the way we think they would.
> Predictions never turn out exactly the way we see them in our minds eye. There is a certain rubato to predictions.... :-)
> Charlie
As long as the contrametric pulse doesn't waver, I'm ok with that!
