I sometimes feel like I'm asking for free lessons or something because I
can contribute so little to many of the discussions here --- but I have
no other way of requesting peer (I know - I should say "elder") review
soooo....

I was digging around in my old music and ran across an old hand
scribbled score for the Double from the Suite in Bm for Unaccompanied
Violin. I used to play this and remember it as being moderately tough on
the hands, so I thought I'd give my hands a little test to see if they
could still handle it.

I've obviously forgotten how I used to finger it because several bits
feel too un-natural - but I went ahead and started reworking it for fun.

I made a vid of the first minute and a half or so - section 1 and the
beginning of section 2. Not up to speed, of course - and the dern vid
became a bit dark part way through (a cloud passed overhead). I tried
lightening the vid but it seems to have caused a little sync problem
between the video and the audio toward the end of the vid - but not too
bad. I left the .mov file for quicktime users dark because the lightened
version could not be opened by quicktime.

Anyway, before I get this really pushed into my hands, I'd really like
some critique from other players. So, if you're familiar with this piece
(I can't scan the had written score I have - comes out very badly) and
if you have a couple of minutes, I would really appreciate some review.
(it's very short - and really should take just a couple of minutes)

My left hand really passes gas badly on one note (you'll know it when
you hear it :-)) which is not to say that is the only bad note, of
course) but, other than obvious fumbles, can you spot any really
terrible fingerings or phrasing etc.?? Am I making it harder than it
needs to be (it surprises me that I can't at ALL remember the fingering
I used long ago).

http://www.hav.com/junk/videos_04-01-05/

Thanks y'all!! -- Any critique will be greatly appreciated.

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"Horace "Kicker" Vallas"

  Well, it was easy to spot the accompanying face crunch. Nice playing. Not
sure what you are looking for but it will be interesting to see what others
who play the piece say. Thanks for posting this.

If you ever need to scan something like that scan it as a color image and
make it a jpeg.

Bob

"Horace "Kicker" Vallas" <h...@hav.com> wrote in message
news:Lml3e.5507$Xp.3488@tornado.texas.rr.com...

Sorry I can't give you any information on how to improve your playing,
but I think it's pretty darn good. No April fooling. Wish I was as bad
as you...

That's a funky sound effect you get where the mic hiss drops during the
quiet parts. It's call "expansion", I believe. Kind of annoying, I get
this on my recordings onto my hard drive. Yuck.

David

hi david - and thanks - yes - that webcam mic is pretty stinky and I'm
not very good at editing out the noise (yet - if ever) -- I guess I
should get a real mic, if for no other reason that to make the vids
maybe a little less painful to watch ---- HEY - now THAT sounds like a
good excu... ummm :-\ ... I mean ... reason for spending a little cash :-))

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Horace writes :

First the good news ..

You took on an impressive piece. Simply memorizing the piece is a fair
amount of work.

There's no doubting that you're a pretty sharp guy.

Except for the deep breath you took before playing, for the most part
you seem relaxed.

You're pleasant to watch.

The music you selected is very beautiful. I've never heard it before.
It's wonderful and
I'm not suprised it's stayed with you over the years.

I'm also very impressed that you're posting these songs on the internet
for us and the
world to view. That is very cool.

Um, I can't tell for certain on the quicktime movie but it looks like
you lightly anchor
your pinky on the first string. Personally I think that is a good idea.
I like it.

You also play the piece at a brisk pace - that helps keep it
interesting.

Now for the take it or leave it bad news ...

On the very begining B minor I'd recommend some vibrato on the 6th
string. And I'd
recommend doing something with it - playing it round like a hoom sound
to it.

(Actually there are other spots where some vibrato would really help,
e.g. the
hold half way through the piece and the end.)

Also, I'd recommend playing the treble strings on the left side of your
nail and using
a slight twist motion. I'd strive for a magic sort of soft sound.
Something that highlights
the quality of your guitar.

Another thing, I think the quality of the sound in those upper
registers
would be improved if you polished your nails with extra extra fine
paper. I think
I hear a subtle scratch when you hit the strings.

I'd also strive to make the bass lines separate from the melody.

Actually you are playing it fairly well and you probably are thinking
that you're pretty
close and that you're doing that already.

So if I could give you one piece of advice here, something to practice,
it would
be to try to keep the treble strings pressed until after hitting the
6th string. And listen
closely as you play and make certain the bass line has not subtle
breaks.

There is one spot in particular - as the song goes down the guitar neck
where you
play an open B and the sustain in the bass is totally dies. I'd
recommend playing
that B on the 4th fret and keeping that F# pressed.

Regarding the big picture, and phrasing. Well, you play the song
without any major
gaphs so, some a good amound of phrasing comes just from the music
itself.

As it is, you haven't added much phrasing of your own.

For one thing, the entire song is played above the sound hole. I'd
recommend
playing ponticello after that hold just about half way through the
song.

Also, about 12 measures after picking up after the hold there
is a spot where the quality of the sound on the 3rd string
has sort a a guitar/twang to it. I'd recommend playing that ponticello.
Make the quality of the sond on that 3rd string *really* stand out.

Finally, about 3 quarters of they way through the piece there's a spot
where
you play an open A, then later an open E. I would recommend dampening
them with your thumb. It will sound better that way. I think of your
playing
Prelude 1 for lute where you let the open E ring as you work your way
down
the guitar neck. It's a similar sort of deal. If you can dampen those
notes
and turn them into half notes as written it sounds more forceful and
the
melody on the upper register comes out better.

It's interesting how the light starts out bright then darkens. And
there is
considerable white noice in the audio. Not a big deal but I mention it
so
you know I'm paying attention.

Right at the end you seem somewhat satisfied with your playing but you
make a bit of a "that's the best I can do" sort of facial expression.
It's better
to show off. Try a "I'm showing off" attitude and when you play
alude to your enjoyment and happiness. More than what you do now.
And put on a face of confidence. Even if there is a bit of acting
involved.

        I wasn't going to bother looking at the clip, but this critique seems
so detailed and interesting--exactly the type of evaluation I'd wish for
from a teacher--that I'm going to have a look at it.

Thanks!

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

"Mark & Steven Bornfeld"
 > interesting--exactly the type of evaluation

  Interesting that you like this kind of critique and expect it from a
teacher.

  Gimme said nothing about the actual music itself, nothing about the
phrasing, nothing about what the double is doubling and how the phrasing
might be used to show how the double is an ornament. The details of that
particular performance Gimme focused on might change once the musical form
is defined better.

news:0Oy3e.980$N13.86@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Larry,

It seemed like an honest effort to provide his opinion on what might improve
the piece for Horace.

Horace - thanks for posting.  I've heard this piece played and fumbled
painfully through, so your effort sounded beautiful to my ears.  We can
always improve.  If any of these opinons help you, thats great.

Any/Everyone - a recommendation for an arrangement (for guitar -- I'm not
looking to do the work on bringing from the violin) of this piece would be a
greatly appreciated input.

John

Hey gimme - and thanks ...

this is, of course, only about half of the piece - maybe a tad more
but it's a nice one and I do remember enjoying it - yes -- when played
to speed it is a good one for that little zing in a performance (though
my "performance" life now is none at all, of course HA HA HA HA HA -
well except for you folks who are kind enough to review things!!  These
days it's all about the act of playing - not readying a performance for
others I guess.

mercenary actually :-))  my only source of peer/elder review these days
(but thanks again)

I may drop it occasionally - but it's not anchored -- I think all those
years of playing other styles before classical at school has permanently
stiffened my RH pinky - yes :-))  my teacher used to chide me to make it
move with (a) but I never was able to do so (he finally gave up trying
to get me to curl it under :-))

certainly not to speed yet but I tried to get a little pace for the vid
- yes

I really need to find a score or re-write the one I have so I can scan
it in or something - that would surely make this easier but ...

I'm sorry to say I'm not really sure of the mechanics to accomplish
this??  the opening are all full barres, but I could probably hinge any
or all of them I guess.  But still, how does one get vibrato when the
index finger is holding a barre?

Yeah - this really does need to be worked up and I had just changed
several fingerings before making the vid. <grin type="sheepish"/>
I slow at the end of the first section only because I was fighting that
fingering - terribly un-natural the way I have it now and, other than
maybe a whole hand vibrato of some kind, I'm not sure I could pull out
any individual things there --- maybe refingering will help in that spot
in particular.

but yes - there really are several other places where a little vib would
be a nice touch and I'll put some in here and there when I set about
really pushing it into my hands (for now, I'm embarrassed to admit that
I am pushing my limit just to get through it and remember the fingering
changes made :-((

that's the almansa/enriquez - not that great a guitar (but not terrible
for practice, I guess). I actually kept (tried to keep) the trebles a
bit sharper rather than rounder.  I'll take a listen using rounder and
see how it does.  SOME of this may also be the weakness (in every sense
of the word :-)) of my RH - still not fully powered from base knuckles
so some there's "grabbing" goin' on there for sure.

ahh - well - actually, my nails are glass(meaning "smooth as") - and I
do finish with old warn emery paper folded into a thick flat roll (of
sorts) --- BUT I had been playing for a little bit prior to the vid so I
could have some play-ware when I did the vid - yes.  And I had probably
wrestled with the dog a couple of times so could have some tiny nicks etc.

yeah, it really needs to be worked up in general - and more separation
is needed for sure.  But I'm not unhappy with it for the little time put
in so far (pretty good for these old and out of shape hands -- think I
need some time practicing that "finger yoga" :-)))  (I like this group!!
HA HA HA)

And yes, this piece probably just makes it easier to accomplish the
(some) separation (almost by default) than do many, more technically
challenging, pieces.

neat - yes - I'll try being more conscious of that and give it a try!

if I know where you are referring to, some of that may just be RH
failure and all but missing the notes as well :-)))  and yes - the
sustain on this guitar is not what it is on the other (but this one is
cedar and less frantically bright than the other - though it also lacks
the volume of the spruce, I find it easier to get volume dynamics on
this one as well)

yes - I have found that (in my case and perhaps for others) a poor
fingering can lead me to poor phrasing of the resulting (dare I call it)
music.  The piece itself does seem to almost

yes - think so

yes - I'll try that

yeah - we had a partly cloudy day and one came overhead part way through
the vid -- I lightened the other formats but I can never seem to export
an avi that quicktime will accept as input for making the .mov format
files --- some day I'll figure that out but, for now, the .mov files are
often raw.

HA HA HA - thanks gimme - that probably WAS a look of self satisfaction
at making it through (with only one really bad SPLAT) with the changed
fingerings and with a bit more speed than I had been playing.  I think
I'll need to hold off on the "I'm showing off" till I can play at least
well enough that I can FEEL like I'm showing off a bit HA HA HA HA -
that is probably a rather LONG time away yet HA HA HA HA

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...

read more »

hey Larry - yes - I thought that I had ought to have identified what it
is doubling in the post -- sorry.  If I remember, it is doubling a
bourree (I have a note that it is from the suite in Bm for unaccompanied
violin - Bach) but I'll need look up the piece to id it nicely - we all
know the bourree ...

da - DUUUM - da - DUUUM - da - dum - da da - dum
da - dum - da - dum - da - da da da da - dum

... HA HA HA - sorry - couldn't resist - I'll locate the piece.

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================================================================

thanks John - and yes - I think gimme is offering honest thoughts and I
appreciate everyone's comment and critique --- even when I don't always
agree with all of it, I'm happy to say that I've always found this group
to offer honest comments and suggestions and it all makes me think about
the play (which I haven't done for a long while -- and more ears are
better than 2 :-)

Hey - if you locate a score that can be posted, please let me know as
well - otherwise I'll have to hand copy (this old faded hand copy) again
or something.

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================================================================

Hi Horace,

You are playing Segovia's arrangement published by Schott. I only had
time for a brief look at your video but noticed that some of Segovia's
fingerings had been changed. Nothing wrong with that, but here the
changes weren't an improvement. Shifting on a barré is clumsy and isn't
necessary, although you do it very well.

Only comment I have time for right now is that it doesn't sound as if
you are putting the accents in the right places at the beginning: you
are grouping the notes in triplets. (Well also a little more alternation
might not come amiss!)

Treat yourself to the best teacher you can find - your talent deserves it.

Sarn Dyer

Hey OJ - and thanks - yes - that's it BWV 1002 - for sure - though
there's some disagreement (like at the begining of the second section)
with my hand scribble -- I'd guess that mine is a segivia transcription
that I copied from someone in school but not positive.

I had a fire several years after school and lost some of my music so I
might have had a good score at aome point but I can't find it now :-(

not exactly sure the tenuto you ref is really correct - sounds ok in
(my) context I guess but not sure it is marked in the actual transcription??

and I notice some little phrasing differences between what I played and
what is marked on the sroce you ref.  Neat - thanks!!

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 Hey Sarn - yes - you're probably correct about the transcription I just
don't remember exactly and I didn't make a note -- sad to say I didn't
mark the fingerings either (arrogance or stupidity of youth I guess :-))

I guess maybe re fingering the beginning would be good and perhaps allow
the opportunity for vibrato that gimme suggested??  I'll re look at that.

Thanks!

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bravery near the 38th parallel. ...   - Unknown
================================================================

Vibrato is a matter of taste but using it on the occasional note is very
much out of style right now, especially in baroque music where it tends
to mitigate against the forward momentum of the music when this is an
element. The same is true of arbitrary changes of tone colour. I'd give
both a miss!

Few players now use vibrato as a consistent element of their left hand
technique, a different thing altogether...

Sarn Dyer

"Horace "Kicker" Vallas"

  Can you hear the bouree as you play the double? It fits with the double
but you don't seem to be phrasing it so that is clear you hear where the
phrases line up. Every movement in that suite seems to have a double. I
remember Segovia playing that bouree but I don't remember him playing the
double. I did like that bouree too and worked on it long ago... still don't
remember the double. Thanks again.

Why can't you play the full bar and vibrato at the same time?

Hey Larry - you know that damn obvious stuff gets me every time :-))  I
think I probably DO have a recording of the bourree somewhere - heck - I
really SHOULD play against it for sure!! that'll probably help a great
deal!  I switched teachers briefly just before I stopped altogether and
he did play the bourree as I worked on the double.  Yeah - ok - time to
dust off the old LPs -- ha ha ha - that'll be fun all by itself!! Neat!

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What is a Vet? ... He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five
wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a
hundred times in the cosmic scales by four hours of exquisite
bravery near the 38th parallel. ...   - Unknown
================================================================

<grin type="sheepish"> just not that good gimme </grin>  but maybe, if I
re finger the beginning, I'll find a way to try it out.

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What is a Vet? ... He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five
wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a
hundred times in the cosmic scales by four hours of exquisite
bravery near the 38th parallel. ...   - Unknown
================================================================

Hey, very interesting to watch and listen to.  I really enjoyed the
experience, although I don't time right now to comment on the
performances.

However, your use of video along with playing to show what you are
doing makes this so much more interesting than only reading about
something.

Is there any site where people regularly post their amateur video
performances of classical music?

best regards from Prague

Mike

Hi Mike - and thanks (I look forward to your comments when you have time)

It would be nice if others would post vids as well - yes - it's soo very
easy (when you get right down to it the biggest irritation is the time
required for conversion to various web friendly formats).

I don't know of any such site (I just put up a little space on my server
for these) but I think delcamp.net has been talking about allowing folks
to post vids (they already allow posting of audio) -- if you visit them,
you'll find the french forums to be MUCH more active than, say, the
english forums.

It DOES seem like I saw a site the other day that allows you to post
videos (of almost anything I expect) -- it is a cost service but wasn't
outlandish and requires only that you have a web cam (and a mic if there
is not one in your webcam) -- perhaps you can search them out (I didn't
BMthe site - sorry) and post it here if you find it because maybe others
will use it as well!! neat!!

I've see other places where folks have seemed to be able to post their
audios as well -- but I'll let one of them tell you where because I
don't really know them.

--
Horace                            ...once known as "Kicker" :-)
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        I'm not going to presume to think what a teacher would best tell me,
only that it sounds like a good technical analysis of the playing itself.
        I'd be more than happy to hear what you have to say about the phrasing
and ornamentation.  To be fair, Gimme did mention that the player added
nothing to the phrasing of his own.  That discussion might have
continued in the next lesson. ;-)

Steve

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"Mark & Steven Bornfeld"

   I've said what needed to be said about the phrasing using the pattern of
the bouree since it is a double of the bouree and therefore is an
ornamentation. His phrasing lacks form because he is not hearing it but once
he plays with the bouree and lines them up it should fix most of the musical
inconsistencies.

 Kicker's technical problems can't be solved until he plays the music in a
way that makes sense and that sense is in the bouree. The technique is not
separate from the musical context and if he phrases differently chances are
there will be a different set of technical problems though some may be the
same.

Well ... to address phrasing, in the way that you think of it, it helps
to either
have the music or know the piece.

Larry is on to something here. On thing I notice is that the music is
played
entirely at the same volume, and as I said before, entirely over the
sound hole,
so the song comes across as a single guitar solo, rather than a dialog.

I've seen some players write long slurs above the staff to break the
music into phrases.

Then they practice it that way.