Best ever classical guitar work?
Constantine
play. What do people rate as the best ever pieces they've heard?
For me it's
1. Valseanas (part II of Aquarelle suite by Sergio Assad) - but this
is biased because I'm learning it now and it's an incredibly sensitive
piece
2. Sunburst (Andrew York)
3. Decameron Negro (Leo Brouwer)
4. Koyunbaba (Domeniconi) - the last piece in this suite takes the
guitar to new heights IMHO. But then you try playing it!
Let me know what you all think!
C.
John Wasak
> 4. Koyunbaba (Domeniconi) - the last piece in this suite takes the
> guitar to new heights IMHO.
>
I think you couldn't be more mistaken.
JW
Dawn and Todd Tipton
John Wasak wrote:
>
>
> I think you couldn't be more mistaken.
>
Now I can only guess, but it just sounds like our friend
hasn't had a great deal of listening experience. Yet those
pieces Constantine like are the fuel to carry listening to
new heights. Constantine, like what you like and don't
worry about it. But, by the same token, listen to as much
music (non guitar too) as you can. I like some of the
pieces you have chosen.
Judging by the pieces you mentioned and the Amazonesque
approach of "if you like...then you might also like..." here
are some things you may enjoy also.
Nikita Koshkin: Usher Waltz
Larry Cooperman:Walking on the Water
Dusan Bogdanovic: Six Balkan Miniatures for World Peace
Brouwer: Sonata
Dyens: Libra Sonatina
Phillip Houghton: Stele
Peter Sculthorpe: From Kakadu
Peter Sculthorpe: Into the Dreaming
Bryan Johanson: Variations on a Finnish Folk Song
John Major: Burning Circle
John Duarte: Musikones
best regards,
Todd Tipton
Minneapolis, Mn.
952-285-5758
http://toddtipton.homestead.com
"I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has
intended us to forego their use."
--Galileo Galilei
Bob Ashley
> Constantine <con...@hotmail.com> wrote: >
>> 4. Koyunbaba (Domeniconi) - the last piece in this suite takes the
>> guitar to new heights IMHO.
>> Let me know what you all think!
John Wasak wrote:
> I think you couldn't be more mistaken.
Maybe we're jaded.
Rotten with experience.
***
rib
John Wasak
Well, you know what it is Bob?...it's this problem I have with Koyunbaba.
I admit it's my Achilles heel, and it's this heel that makes steam pour out
my ears, most especially when the Presto is raised, as it is here by
Constantine, to the toppermost of the uppermost. Now that the steam has
evaporated some around my head I see that I was somewhat incorrect in my
statement here. Certainly Constantine would have been 'more mistaken' had
he said: "Sor's Op.60 No.4 takes the guitar to new heights", or "Carcassi's
Op.60 No.7 takes the guitar to new heights" or something along those lines.
So in the interest of correctitude I would like to suggest that the Presto
in Koyunbaba takes the guitar not far off to an uncharted Himalayan
mountaintop, but only to the molehill in the next-door neighbors yard.
JW
John Wasak
> John Wasak wrote:
> > I think you couldn't be more mistaken.
> >
> Now I can only guess, but it just sounds like our friend
> hasn't had a great deal of listening experience. Yet those
> pieces Constantine like are the fuel to carry listening to
> new heights. Constantine, like what you like and don't
> worry about it.
Oh, I wasn't trying to tell Constantine what to like, Todd. No-sir-ee. My
comment was directed solely to the "raises guitar to new heights" portion of
Constantine's message. Read my post to rib on this subject.
JW
Matanya Ophee
>Oh, I wasn't trying to tell Constantine what to like, Todd. No-sir-ee. My
>comment was directed solely to the "raises guitar to new heights" portion of
>Constantine's message.
I am with you on this one, John. It is on the same level of "The Next
Greatest Guitarist," "The First Lady of the Guitar" and similar
thoughtless expressions of hype. The first question, of course, is
what were the _old_ heights from which the guitar had to be raised. I
suspect Constantine would have no answer to that.
As for Koyunbaba, I am on record for disliking it enormously. I am
also on record that when it is played by people who understand the
cultural baggage of the piece, Domeniconi himself, Jorgos Panetsos,
Aniello Desiderio for example, the piece comes out as real music. So
does the Usher Walse. It is not the music, as I keep on saying, but
the musician.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
Bob Ashley
>> John Wasak wrote:
>>> I think you couldn't be more mistaken.
rib rote:
>> Maybe we're jaded.
>>
>> Rotten with experience.
>
> Well, you know what it is Bob?...it's this problem I have with Koyunbaba.
> I admit it's my Achilles heel, and it's this heel that makes steam pour out
> my ears, most especially when the Presto is raised, as it is here by
> Constantine, to the toppermost of the uppermost. Now that the steam has
> evaporated some around my head I see that I was somewhat incorrect in my
> statement here. Certainly Constantine would have been 'more mistaken' had
> he said: "Sor's Op.60 No.4 takes the guitar to new heights", or "Carcassi's
> Op.60 No.7 takes the guitar to new heights" or something along those lines.
>
> So in the interest of correctitude I would like to suggest that the Presto
> in Koyunbaba takes the guitar not far off to an uncharted Himalayan
> mountaintop, but only to the molehill in the next-door neighbors yard.
Well, I agree with your angle on this 'Boy-n-caca'.
This is the trouble we get into with evaluative criticism. Depending on how
one's color-filtered biases are shuffled, some works show up as champion
knights, other as dark and faulty. All such evaluations are the outgrowth of
highly localized subjectivities, pre-rigged determinisms. This is only a
rehearsal, me knowing that you know I know you know I know you know this.
I'm not even quite sure what 'new heights' means exactly, anyhoo. How about
you? It does seem sort of soaked with vaulting notions of transcendence
towards the semi-divine, the sublime hovering halfway between us and the
gods. It sounds like the dramatic projection of personal anxieties to me.
Personally, I agree with your subjective angle on 'Boy-n-caca' but ours are
a worthless criticism, this work being just as much a occupant of our canon
as any other work. Real criticism, which neither us seem able to muster at
the moment, would attempt first to place subjectivity into temporary
abeyance, and get to the useful work of situating the work generically,
historically, theoretically, performatively, in proposing revealing
interrelationships with its co-occupants. And across the complete breadth
and depth of the canon, that is, amidst all works, without prejudice, not
hoisting up hierarchies of works. If the critic is to reveal, he/she must be
transparent, such that his/her biases don't become a distracting or opaquing
influence for audiences. Evaluative criticism always points to the
plentitudes of the critic, not the work, an understandable, yet comic,
situation.
Of course, the magisterial term 'new heights' has no business unfurling its
draperies in the vocabulary of sensitive criticisms assuming any of these
perspectives.
Evaluative criticism, I think, is best left to stock traders, either of the
paper or hoofed variety, or both. In art it has the limp wrist of passing
interest, much like this thread.
Now, for all that, how would you situate 'Boy-n-caca' within the
Domeniconian corpus? A different sort of question, isn't it, from 'How high
is the new height set by 'x'? Not answering this question, but another, I
find this work alluding to something external to our classical project
proper. More specifically, it is reminiscent of the that new-age,
steel-string genre predominantly driven by harmonic pastels, not indelible
melodic inks. Under the sign of 'new-age' would also fall a notable
multicultural influence on composition wherein works seem not to project
this or that particular national identity or traditional, but rather a
borderless, cultural stew. 'Boy-n-caca' is perhaps a chevron to the
postcolonial effacement of sharp identities of all sorts--political,
cultural, regional, personal. And perhaps melodic identities as well.
None of this, of course, has anything whatever to do with whether I happen
to like or abhor the work. But if the criticism is good enough, the work
should appear to be evaluating me.
For one, I'll confess to a subjective favoring of melodic ink over harmonic
pastel. The work, by this light, would appear to be evaluating my
shortcomings, that I come to it, underprepared. If so, the work is
performing art's function, self-revelation, art's judgment of critics.
Not the other way round. Of course, if one counterargues, saying, the
'Boy-n-caca' indeed possesses a die-stamped melodic identity, I'm back at
square one, wondering what I might have missed. Again, the work, not the
critic, prevails.
Artful creator of perspectives that you are, in what way does 'Boy-n-caca'
prevail over your demurral? The question proposes juryrigging critical
devices of felicitous surrender.
***
rib
Dawn and Todd Tipton
John Wasak wrote:
>
>
> Oh, I wasn't trying to tell Constantine what to like, Todd. No-sir-ee. My
> comment was directed solely to the "raises guitar to new heights" portion of
> Constantine's message. Read my post to rib on this subject.
>
>
Good point. I agree with you. Sorry for coming off the
wrong way.
Curt Allen
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
> As for Koyunbaba, I am on record for disliking it enormously. I am
> also on record that when it is played by people who understand the
> cultural baggage of the piece, Domeniconi himself, Jorgos Panetsos,
> Aniello Desiderio for example, the piece comes out as real music. So
> does the Usher Walse. It is not the music, as I keep on saying, but
> the musician.
Well to my knowledge, the majority of the population has not, nor ever WILL,
be able to hear Domeniconi himself playing this piece.
Matanya Ophee
Which population? which country? Carlo is appearing regularly in many
European guitar festivals and a lot of European guitarists get to hear
him personally. As for the US, I hope your prediction is not going to
bear fruit. There is always the next GFA festival where an imaginative
Artistic Director can take the initiative. No one had heard Roberto
Aussel in the US, until Carlos Molina, the director fo the 1991 GFA
festival brought him over. I think Domeniconi, and/or Carlo Marchione,
and/or Aniello Desiderio, and/or Lucio Mattarazzo, and/or Luigi
Attademo (which I have not heard in person, but I trust the judgement
of other who have) would be a wonderful thing for Carlos to pull off
again!
Matanya Ophee
>Well, I agree with your angle on this 'Boy-n-caca'.
That's sexist. It is my observation that the majority of the people
who really besmirch themselves with this music are girls, not boys.
Again, what makes it caca is the performer's misconception, not the
music, and girls are just as liable to overload their diapers with it,
just as much as boys do.
I used to call it Coy-and-Babble. I take it all back. When understood
in the proper cultural backdrop, this is a first class piece of music
that has been bent out of all proportion by too much exposure as a
cheap vehicle for finger pyrotechnics.
John Wasak
> Artful creator of perspectives that you are, in what way does 'Boy-n-caca'
> prevail over your demurral? The question proposes juryrigging critical
> devices of felicitous surrender.
>
Yes, it does and unfortunately in this case I find it next to impossible to
overcome or even suspend my well entrenched dislike of Koyunbaba. I'd rather
listen to one thousand and one RdlA's or even an equal amount Leyenda's than
listen to one Koyunbaba. It is my absolute failing. When it comes to
Koyunbaba, I'm ruined, a fallen angel beyond redemption. I have before in
this NG characterized the 'Presto' as sounding like third-rate Leo Kottke.
This impression, early on carved in stone by myself, is not a light one and
the weight of this carved stone holding me down, keeps me in shadow,
disallowing my rising above it. But that's my problem...everyone else
should enjoy Koyunbaba to their hearts content.
MO has raised the point before that the problem of Koyunbaba is one of
interpretation and not of musical content, that may well be, I haven't heard
the people he says make it palatable play it. I can't help but think,
however, that "K" in my case would not be helped by the player only...there
is still the music...the structure, how the the notes themselves set up, to
deal with.
My best analogy to all this would be to the song "My Favorite Things" from
'The Sound Of Music". Never thought much of the tune until I heard John
Coltrane's interpretation of it. Great and wonderful things he did with it.
But, Coltrane, as a jazz player, was at liberty to do with the tune any darn
thing he wanted, he could tweak some, he could, flatten, sharpen, extend,
augment, diminish, half-diminish, up-tempo, slow tempo, he could yodel in
modal, he could mold it any way he saw fit.
This sort of thing just isn't possible with Koyunbaba played as a classical
set piece. Variations and deviations from the plan are limited. It's
precisely this that makes me think that "K" is, for me, beyond hope. Having
said all this though, I would still be interested, if I had the chance, to
hear Domeniconi himself play Koyunbaba live.
JW
Matanya Ophee
>Oh, I wasn't trying to tell Constantine what to like, Todd. No-sir-ee. My
>comment was directed solely to the "raises guitar to new heights" portion of
>Constantine's message.
Here is another one, recently posted here:
".....Martha Masters is quickly becoming one of the most sought-after
guitarists of her generation...."
Chew on _that_ one for a while.
Bob Ashley
Your surrender is powerful.
***
rib
--
Bob Ashley
> Bob Ashley <ax...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
>
>> Well, I agree with your angle on this 'Boy-n-caca'.
>
> That's sexist. It is my observation that the majority of the people
> who really besmirch themselves with this music are girls, not boys.
> Again, what makes it caca is the performer's misconception, not the
> music, and girls are just as liable to overload their diapers with it,
> just as much as boys do.
You're right. It is sexist. This is my retraction (non-anal).
> I used to call it Coy-and-Babble. I take it all back. When understood
> in the proper cultural backdrop, this is a first class piece of music
> that has been bent out of all proportion by too much exposure as a
> cheap vehicle for finger pyrotechnics.
Coy-and-Babble is better.
***
rib
Bob Ashley
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I wasn't trying to tell Constantine what to like, Todd. No-sir-ee. My
>> comment was directed solely to the "raises guitar to new heights" portion of
>> Constantine's message.
MO wrote:
> Here is another one, recently posted here:
>
> ".....Martha Masters is quickly becoming one of the most sought-after
> guitarists of her generation...."
>
> Chew on _that_ one for a while.
Yuck. Ick. Gag.
***
rib
John Wasak
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Oh, I wasn't trying to tell Constantine what to like, Todd. No-sir-ee.
My
> >comment was directed solely to the "raises guitar to new heights" portion
of
> >Constantine's message.
>
> Here is another one, recently posted here:
>
> ".....Martha Masters is quickly becoming one of the most sought-after
> guitarists of her generation...."
>
> Chew on _that_ one for a while.
>
Ha! Yes, I saw this one as well, MO. I was going to comment since that
really was the first thing that jumped out at me as I started to read that
post, but by and large the rest was just a typical promotional thing and
there's no harm in that, so I let it go by. I don't know though why people
feel that they need to say sillly things like "quickly becoming one of the
most sought-after
guitarists of her generation" Frankly, I'm not sure sure what the message
even is in that statement. What follows after that line at least gave us
some idea of who she might be but this 'most sought-after guitarist of her
generation' stuff is pure fluff. What generation is she in anyway?
JW
Lester Long
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Oh, I wasn't trying to tell Constantine what to like, Todd. No-sir-ee.
My
> >comment was directed solely to the "raises guitar to new heights" portion
of
> >Constantine's message.
>
> Here is another one, recently posted here:
>
> ".....Martha Masters is quickly becoming one of the most sought-after
> guitarists of her generation...."
Have you seen her pics? Perhaps she is, though not for the guitar thing.
Lester
Matanya Ophee
>> Here is another one, recently posted here:
>>
>> ".....Martha Masters is quickly becoming one of the most sought-after
>> guitarists of her generation...."
>>
>> Chew on _that_ one for a while.
>>
>
>Ha! Yes, I saw this one as well, MO. I was going to comment since that
>really was the first thing that jumped out at me as I started to read that
>post, but by and large the rest was just a typical promotional thing and
>there's no harm in that,
I am not sure there is no harm. I never heard Martha Masters play, and
have not had the good fortune to listen to her recordings. For all I
know, she may well be a good player. But when this kind of crap is put
in a promotional text, it immediately reflects on the _other_ members
of the same group. Besides, it is the kind of meaningless dribble that
is made to sound good, but says nothing about the artist. It implies
that others, the general public, concert organizers etc, are seeking
MM more than they do other people of the same age group, but
acknowledging that she is only one of many or several being sought.
Who are the others? I'd like to know. Besides, I wasn't aware that
artists were sought after by generations. So far, since winning the
GFA last year, MM had done the usual 50 concert tour, still doing it,
to judge by the concert listing on her web site, and a few other
appearances here and there. The current Concert Listing in the
November issue of Classical Guitar Magazine, just arrived in the post
today. It covers the period of November, December 2001, and January
2002 and it has a world wide coverage, from Greece to Korea and points
in between (Sharon Isbin is in Singapore, Ernesto Bitteti is in
Argentina, Stanley Yates is in England, the Amadeus Duo is all over
the place). Not a single mention of MM. Either she is not sought after
as much as her Press Release implies, or that she needs a new Manager.
> so I let it go by. I don't know though why people
>feel that they need to say sillly things like "quickly becoming one of the
>most sought-after
> guitarists of her generation"
because they have a manager who tries to work extra hard for his/her
fee. I suppose that when the stuff is directed at the Artistic
Director of the local Garden Club, it could have some effect. But when
it is posted here, in this forum, it has a false ring to it. We know
better. The real harm is done that if not nipped in the bud, this
thing will take on a life of its own, and 15 years from now, when we
all would have forgotten which generation MM belonged to, the hype
will continue. We have seen this in action before
> Frankly, I'm not sure sure what the message
>even is in that statement. What follows after that line at least gave us
>some idea of who she might be but this 'most sought-after guitarist of her
>generation' stuff is pure fluff. What generation is she in anyway?
The Biography on her web site is the same silly text that was posted
here. It does not say when she was born. Nice photos, and all that,
but the lady could be anywhere from her mid 20s to late 40s. Now, do
we count generations by birth dates, or by the date the person first
made its appearance on the scene?
Steven Bornfeld
John Wasak wrote:
Sought after by...creditors, hit men...?
Steve
>
>
> JW
Brigitte Zaczek
>"Curt Allen" <cur...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Well to my knowledge, the majority of the population has not, nor ever
>WILL,
>>be able to hear Domeniconi himself playing this piece.
>
>European guitar festivals and a lot of European guitarists get to hear
>him personally. As for the US, I hope your prediction is not going to
>bear fruit.
give you more details. He will also attend the first performance of his
new sonata written for Alvaro Pierri on November 11th at the Vienna
Konzerthaus.
BZ
o.Univ.Prof. Brigitte Zaczek
University for music and performing arts, Vienna
Constantine
Yes, let's say "Raises to new heights relative to the limited guitar
listening experience I currently have". Sorry to raise your goat - I
was just interested in getting pointers to similar pieces.
John Wasak
> Yes, let's say "Raises to new heights relative to the limited guitar
> listening experience I currently have". Sorry to raise your goat - I
> was just interested in getting pointers to similar pieces.
>
The only problem with this, this idea of getting pointers to similar pieces,
I think, is that this will tend to keep your guitar listening experience
limited. Which is okay if you want to keep that experience limited, but if
you really want to speak of new heights, new places and directions for the
guitar, then you can't, in truth, do it from a limited perspective.
It also probably helps to steer clear of the idea of 'best ever'. My 'best
ever' is ever changing...dependent on mood and memory; dependent on things
like the color of the sky at sunset or the smell of the soup pot boiling on
the stove as a winter evening settles in.
JW
Bob Ashley
> Yes, let's say "Raises to new heights relative to the limited guitar
> listening experience I currently have". Sorry to raise your goat - I
> was just interested in getting pointers to similar pieces.
Consider the whole trajectory of this thread, Constantine.
John volunteered surrender to his local bias contra 'Koyunbaba'.
I suggested that our experience may have rendered us 'jaded'.
You've done the right thing at this moment in complicating the critique,
injecting this important fact which conjoins the depth of your personal
experience (not too deep) with the 'new heights' (very, very high) you are
perceiving.
Angles are everything.
From yours, the phrase 'new heights' is exactly, and properly, true. As your
experience dredges deeper into canon, you may, or you may not, find your
angle on Koynbaba changing. Your prospects hold more positive potential than
either John's or mine, since if while you gather that experience you can
still hold onto your admiration of Koyunbaba, your world shall be both
wider, deeper, and higher than ours.
Almost no one does this, however. As our tastes age, like our bodies and
minds, we are prone to becoming crotchedy fuss-budgets, stiff-limbed and
high blood-pressured. I envy you. A young god dying into this prospect.
We call it 'maturing gracefully, though every kid knows the truth, that what
it really is 'decaying gaucherie'.
***
rib
VonTressMS
>play. What do people rate as the best ever pieces they've heard?
>
Well for me, it is with a doubt, Bach's Chaconne.
I'm partial to stuff by Moreno-Torroba too: the Andante in Sonatina is nice.
Castles in Spain is nice.
This is perhaps a stupid thing to say, but Classical Gas is also a great
classical guitar peice because of how many people inspired to explore classical
guitar.
Flame me if you will, but you asked for opinions. I'm just an amateur, so take
it for what it is worth.
Mark
Constantine
stirring up the hornet's nest ;-)
vontr...@cs.com (VonTressMS) wrote in message news:<20011104184606...@mb-mi.news.cs.com>...
Constantine
PS. I saw Roland Dyens playing here in Amsterdam - quite a showman!
Dawn and Todd Tipton <dawntod...@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:<3BE357D6...@mn.rr.com>...
Joseph Raymond
> >play. What do people rate as the best ever pieces they've heard?
> >
>
> Well for me, it is with a doubt, Bach's Chaconne.
>
The Dm Chaconne is number one for me too. Also, I think that Segovia
did a great job on it. I used to have a record of Heifitz playing it
on the fiddle. But of the two, Segovia's rendition spoke to me more.
I've begun sloughing through this piece myself and have made it
through a few times by reading just one or two pages at a sitting and
then picking it up on another day. Even played slowly it is very
enjoyable. In fact, in places I find the harmony so beautiful that I
just have to stop and marvel at the sound of the chord.
Joe