Prelude to BWV 1006a - (Fourth Lute Suite)
Richard Yates
Alain Reiher
"Richard Yates" <ric...@yatesguitar.com> wrote in message
news:hdvdi1$ftq$1...@news.albasani.net...
> Has anyone done this in D major instead of E major?
Is it possible in D major?
Alain
Richard Yates
There are a couple of places that are more difficult or need adjusting, but
the E major version needs adjusting, too, just in different spots. D major
is lots easier in many places. In E major you end with all those b sharps
and e sharps and the resulting barre chords. Scales passages have fewer
open strings available for smooth shifts. Generally, I think D major is
looking much more congenial (although I have only started going over it
today).
Alain Reiher
So ... Xuei had her influence on you [;o) (even if she gave a so so
perfomanceof the BWV 1006a in your neck of the wood!) I have learn the
prelude in E and I do not think that I would invest in a relearning in D ...
Are you planing to arrange the rest of the suite too?
I always have found that the second menuet was not totally at it's place in
E major ... The Gavotte en rondo though is totally at home in E.
Alain
Slogoin
> Generally, I think D major is looking much more congenial
> (although I have only started going over it today).
It works really well in E if you get a good fingering. I have
never seen two people play it with the same LH fingering and that
includes articulations like slurs. If you really want to play this
piece it's got to be one the best examples of why performers should do
their own transcriptions since the fingerings and interpretation are
so closely bound.
Richard Yates
> "Richard Yates" <ric...@yatesguitar.com> wrote in message
> news:hdvgke$joj$1...@news.albasani.net...
>> Alain Reiher wrote:
>>> "Richard Yates" <ric...@yatesguitar.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hdvdi1$ftq$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>>> Has anyone done this in D major instead of E major?
>>>
>>> Is it possible in D major?
>>> Alain
>>
>> There are a couple of places that are more difficult or need
>> adjusting, but the E major version needs adjusting, too, just in
>> different spots. D major is lots easier in many places. In E major
>> you end with all those b sharps and e sharps and the resulting barre
>> chords. Scales passages have fewer open strings available for smooth
>> shifts. Generally, I think D major is looking much more congenial
>> (although I have only started going over it today).
>
> So ... Xuei had her influence on you [;o) (even if she gave a so so
> perfomanceof the BWV 1006a in your neck of the wood!)
Yes, I confess.
> I have learn the
> prelude in E and I do not think that I would invest in a relearning
> in D ... Are you planing to arrange the rest of the suite too?
Well, that's a whole other question. And maybe D major has not been used
for the prelude because things go badly in the rest of the suite.
> I always have found that the second menuet was not totally at it's
> place in E major ... The Gavotte en rondo though is totally at home
> in E.
Alain, this sounds like a challenge! Let me work a few weeks on the prelude
first.
Andrew Schulman
> Has anyone done this in D major instead of E major?
>
>
well in D major. I assume you know the Sinfonia version from Cantata
29 which is in D, here is a 2 keyboard arrangement for anyone that is
interested:
http://www.robert-lavigne.com/Musitek/Music-Score/BWV-29/PDF/BWV-29-0222-2P-REV.pdf
Andrew
Andrew Schulman
wrote:
> On Nov 17, 7:01 pm, "Richard Yates" <rich...@yatesguitar.com> wrote:> Has anyone done this in D major instead of E major?
>
> We may agree about having seen UFO's but I don't think BWC 1006a works
> well in D major.
>
>
Andrew
Stanley Yates
"Andrew Schulman" <and...@abacaproductions.com> wrote in message
news:f29336a3-2554-4fa9...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Andrew Schulman
> bariolage
>
>
Yeah, couldn't remember the name of that sound! That, and the
brightness of E sounds better too.
Andrew
Richard Yates
The two keys are almost a wash as far as the availability of open strings
for bariolage. Near the beginning the open E's sit nicely, of course, in E
major, but later, from m.63 to 78 the A's in E major become handy open G's
in D major. This is a section in E major versions where the original octave
placements have to be fiddled with to make it playable. Koonce gives two
versions, both of which can be a little clunky with the A's dropped down an
octave. It plays easily without those changes in D major.
Andrew Schulman
Andrew
Richard Yates
You're probably right. That may be a reason people have not tried D major -
the easy parts come later. In the early part, dropping the drone D's to
open fourth string works pretty well - acually better, I think, than
dropping the later A's to open fifth in E major. I'll keep working on it
and post it as an experiment for feedback later. I am also changing the
notation to separate the lines in the bariolages (and elsewhere) better.
Could be useful or could be just too fussy, but worth trying.
Tommy Grand
> I'll keep working on it
> and post it as an experiment for feedback later.
Yes, it will be easier form an opinion when we hear how it sounds in
performance. Looking forward to hearing it!
Tashi
Yes, I think Richard should add one more ridiculous transcription
under his belt, just to be different. I think time would be better
spent perfecting the suite in E major.
Paul Magnussen
I use lute tuning (EADF#BE). Works well.
Paul Magnussen
Richard Yates
To clarify, I will post the score. Maybe with a parallel staff in E major
so comparisons can be made more easily.
Tommy Grand
> To clarify, I will post the score. Maybe with a parallel staff in E major
> so comparisons can be made more easily.
My bad, I assumed you play through all your transcriptions and were
just going to record a run through for us. That would be, by far, the
easiest way to tell whether it works.
Slogoin
>
> My bad, I assumed you play through all your transcriptions and were
> just going to record a run through for us. That would be, by far, the
> easiest way to tell whether it works.
Working it up in either key is non-trivial - but you know that.
Great piece to line up the LH.
Tommy Grand
> Working it up in either key is non-trivial - but you know that.
>
> Great piece to line up the LH.
Certainly I can't play it, but I assumed Richard would be up for a
rough test drive of any piece he transcribes. How else do you know
whether something really works in practice?
Slogoin
>
> Certainly I can't play it, but I assumed Richard would be up for a
> rough test drive of any piece he transcribes. How else do you know
> whether something really works in practice?
How did Beethoven ever manage to write that 9th symphony?
Tommy Grand
...and why do people still marvel at the accomplishment? The
exception that proves the rule.
Slogoin
>
> ...and why do people still marvel at the accomplishment? The
> exception that proves the rule.
There seem to be many exceptions for your 'rule'.
Tommy Grand
Ok fine, have it your way. Richard's not going to play it for us, the
end.
David Raleigh Arnold
Since it's a baroque lute suite, don't you think that you should qualify,
on the remote chance that some readers might be confused?
Renaissance lute tuning. 6-->1 wouldn't hurt either. Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
anon
> Has anyone done this in D major instead of E major?
Yes: Ansgar Krause
Breitkopf & Haertel
5771001 Arrangement for guit (Krause, Ansgar)
ISMN: M-004-57163-7 (20 pages 30,5 x 23 cm )
http://www.breitkopf.com/inventory/werk/640?sr.weltlich=false&sr.isbn=&sr.besetzungen=&sr.epochen=&sr.query=krause&sr.geistlich=false&was=8%2C10
anon
Sorry, also meant to say he's done the full suite.
Richard Yates
Thanks, anon.
I worked on mine most of the day. Should be up for comment soon.
Richard Yates
> ... Are you planning to arrange the rest of the suite too?
> I always have found that the second menuet was not totally at it's
> place in E major ... The Gavotte en rondo though is totally at home
> in E. Alain
Well, here's the rough cut of the Menuet II for you to take a look at. The
fingering for it looks like it would be entirely straightforward. The one
note in parentheses (m. 10) can't be played in E major OR D major. One
advantage of E major is that open B on top in the first measures. The big
chord in m. 30 is easier with the open A available in the bass in E major,
but it is trivial to move into the full V barr� in the D major version. My
Koonce version uses lots more barr�s than would be needed in D major, but
you also might want to use them anyway to prevent unwanted over-ringing in
either key.
http://www.yatesguitar.com/bach/1006a-Menuet2-Dmajor.pdf
Richard
Alain Reiher
> Alain Reiher wrote:
>> ... Are you planning to arrange the rest of the suite too?
>> I always have found that the second menuet was not totally at it's
>> place in E major ... The Gavotte en rondo though is totally at home
>> in E. Alain
>
> Well, here's the rough cut of the Menuet II for you to take a look at. The
> fingering for it looks like it would be entirely straightforward. The one
> note in parentheses (m. 10) can't be played in E major OR D major. One
> advantage of E major is that open B on top in the first measures. The big
> chord in m. 30 is easier with the open A available in the bass in E major,
> Koonce version uses lots more barr�s than would be needed in D major, but
> either key.
>
> http://www.yatesguitar.com/bach/1006a-Menuet2-Dmajor.pdf
>
> Richard
It looks easier ... than in E ... at first glance.
I'll look at it with my guitar in hand later.
Thanks
Alain
Richard Yates
It took a month of practice but a recording of the D minor version of the
Prelude from BWV 1006a is finally ready for download at:
http://www.yatesguitar.com/bach/bach.html
(I anxiously await Tommy's review.)
Tommy Grand
> (I anxiously await Tommy's review.)
Nice job Richard, congrats. Way better than most people here,
including me, could do. Tell me: did you revise any of your original
fingerings?
Douglas Seth
> Has anyone done this in D major instead of E major?
I played it in E. I played it for my audition for grad school (I was
awarded the assistantship so I must have played it ok). I was
teaching it to someone a few years ago. The night before a lesson with
the student who was working on it, I had a very strange dream. I was
teaching the lesson and refingered the big scale runs in the first
page "campanela" style (in my dream). When I taught the lesson the
next day, my "new" campanela fingerings worked well and sounded
great. If I ever perform this again, I would definitely use them.
Has anyone else ever refingered a piece in their sleep?
Doug
Richard Yates
There were several stages of revisions. The most recent is the one at the
link: http://www.yatesguitar.com/bach/bach.html
Slogoin
>
> It took a month of practice but a recording of the D minor version of the
> Prelude from BWV 1006a is finally ready for download at:
>
> http://www.yatesguitar.com/bach/bach.html
>
> (I anxiously await Tommy's review.)
That's a lot of work Richard. Did you play it in E before doing the D
version? It works pretty well but I think I prefer E. It's also a bit
slow to me so both together make it darker than hear it. Thanks for
posting it.
Richard Yates
>> of the Prelude from BWV 1006a is finally ready for download at:
>>
>> http://www.yatesguitar.com/bach/bach.html
>>
>> (I anxiously await Tommy's review.)
>
> That's a lot of work Richard. Did you play it in E before doing the D
> version?
I played it in E many years ago, and then looked at E versions again
briefly last month. There are parts that sit better in E but many more than
that in D. Overall, its just easier in D major.
> It works pretty well but I think I prefer E.
There's always the option of second fret capo! (Actually I think there is
YouTube of someone playing Ansgar Krause's D major version that way. I did
buy his to see what he had done but I cannot recommend the edition. He did
not have a coherent plan for the transcription as far as I can tell.)
> It's also a bit slow to me so both together make it darker than hear it.
It's slower than many recordings that I see around, but those are mostly by
far better guitarists than I. I can crank it up a couple more notches when
practicing, but it would take many more "takes" to get a reasonably clean
recording. There is also the rationalization that slower allows more space
for playing with articulation and orchestration. As long as it is quick
enough to have a groove and a shape, it doesn't really need more speed,
except to dazzle. My playing will never be dazzling and, in any event, the
purpose of the recording is to demonstrate the soundness of the
transcription.
Tommy Grand
> My playing will never be dazzling and, in any event, the
> purpose of the recording is to demonstrate the soundness of the
> transcription.
Richard at what point did you give up on dazzle? I'm not joking -- I
wonder how to tell when the ship has sailed.
Richard Yates
> On Dec 21, 6:53 pm, "Richard Yates" <rich...@yatesguitar.com> wrote:
>
>> My playing will never be dazzling and, in any event, the
>> purpose of the recording is to demonstrate the soundness of the
>> transcription.
>
> Richard at what point did you give up on dazzle?
30 years ago?
> I'm not joking -- I wonder how to tell when the ship has sailed.
When you walk up the gangplank and fall into the ocean.
How old are you?
Tommy Grand
> How old are you?
33, wondering if I should abandon hope of playing Pujol #13. Is it a
young man's game?
Alain Reiher
attempt to approach the violin fluid and dynamic versions which cannot be
replicated by a guitar...
I like the calm emanating from your interpretation. Some nice coloration
too.
Alain
Richard Yates
Thank you, Alain. Yes, you've described what I try to get across. All of
the running and leaping sixteenth notes are the surface for a longer,
slower, rolling of waves of harmonies that have a kind of calm to them.
Playing it too fast draws attention to the surface and risks missing the
broader gestures. Now, of course I wish I could play it faster and more
cleanly and still give even better shape to the larger waves. But I can't,
so it has to be the way it is.
Slogoin
>
> Thank you, Alain. Yes, you've described what I try to get across. All of
> the running and leaping sixteenth notes are the surface for a longer,
> slower, rolling of waves of harmonies that have a kind of calm to them.
> Playing it too fast draws attention to the surface and risks missing the
> broader gestures.
I think it's the opposite when you play it faster with ease and
breath with the slower harmonic waves, but that is not trivial. The
slurs in the right places can do a lot to not only move it more like
violin but create motivic relationships. I've played it for years but
only found the violin feel recently. I just tried to see if I could
copy some of the violin versions and found things that made the speed
easier like connection notes at the tops and bottoms of groups of
similar figures. You sound like you are hear most of them and are
trying to bring them out but they get cut off in some of the fun parts
like the rising lines just before the end where you only hold one the
the high notes.
> Now, of course I wish I could play it faster and more
> cleanly and still give even better shape to the larger waves. But I can't,
> so it has to be the way it is.
Sometimes playing faster is in how you think it. That was the case
for me with this piece. When I got the violin in my head it seemed to
click how to connect far apart notes to create the long lines. Don't
give up on getting it to lift off and hydroplane. It can be easier and
clearer.
BTW, it's clear you hear a lot of interesting patterns in this
music and bring them out quite well. I think it's one of the more
interesting pieces in the repertoire with a very wide range of
interpretations.