Atonality and audiences
agil
Here, captured from youtube, the final movement of the premiere (given in
Moscow, I believe) of an atonal concerto for guitar and orchestra.
The soloist - Dimitri Illarionov, a great performer - here employs a
Russian guitar too weak for his powers, but the orchestra and the conductor
are working at their normal good standard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9RMscmQjg
ag
ktaylor
I am not sure what you are suggesting bringing this to our attention,
although I listened to it and found it interesting. It sounded as if
the guitarist was amplified and I did not notice any weakness either
in volume or orchestral confusion (and I was listening with headphones
that produced very clear sound).
I believe that atonal and aleatory music are sometimes confused,
though I know they are not confused by you. It is not all that
challenging to listen to atonality - although I though this piece
sounded bi-tonal in the beginning (I would have to listen to it again
to discern it better). I think most 21st century listeners can accept
atonality as long as there are other aspects that tether the music to
some coherency. In this piece, the unifying aspects are the meter and
rhythm, the subject form, and the interplay between the orchestra and
soloist. The elements of interest are the orchestration (very, very
nice) and the itterations of the subject. The emotive response does
not come from any melodic narrative, so if one does not look for that
it is not missed. Without those unifying elements, I don't think the
piece exists. Did you compose this? It is a very clear work and not
all that difficult to listen to.
Kevin Taylor
Tommy Grand
I think this music, sounds a little old fashioned. This piece
represents the Old Complexity, not the New Complexity. But cg is
always behind the times hehe. I too wonder who composed it.
Dicerous
Complexity is the issue and the concept that needs to be explored, not
ktaylor's propinquous understanding of difficult concepts.
Complexity in postmodernity, as foucault nicely stated is the diffence
of heterogenity and unification. The latter is not implemented in the
art of composition, but must be established IN the writer himself.
What we are talking about is the complex -going-back-and forth between
the composers sane, unified subjectivity and the radical heterogenity
of the other. Art is one of the ONLY places that this is expressed.
end of homily.
Dicerous
In modernity, since schoenberg audiences have to feel the aleotory and/
or atonal, fragmented (viz tonal) elements on many sense levels. The
modern condition may or may not allow for this to happen. I'm not
sure what AG was going for (i.e. whether audiences will pay for that
experience). Certainly, since schoenberg composers are making-it-
happen despite the audiences (perhaps futile) attempts at this
unification. I feel that it's up to the performer to give this in the
presentation; it's not up to the composer.
agil
"ktaylor" <child...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:93232833-1890-4d70...@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
Hello Kevin, I did not refer to any specifical target with posting this
link, except perhaps asking a few good willing listeners to realize that
non-tonal music is not forbidden to audiences which attend concerts whose
programs feature classical music. In this newsgroup, in the past, it
happened to me reading universal condemnations of "atonal" music and, after
watching to this file on youtube - kindly forwarded to me by someone who
knows I can't read Cyrillic - and observing the reaction of the audience -
which applauded with its normal warmth, like after the performance of the
Bolero - I thought that the rmcg judges are not perhaps completely entitled
to pronounce their sentences beyond the area of their boots.
Incidentally, yes, it it the third and last movement of my "Concerto di
Novgorod" for Russian 7 String Guitar and Orchestra. Dimitri was its first
performer in Italy, and he featured it also in the Moscow concert from which
the youtube file was taken. Here he works with a good orchestra and with a
good conductor.
Ciao.
ag
agil
"Tommy Grand" <howar...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:e5521334-23b6-48bd...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>
> I think this music, sounds a little old fashioned. This piece
> represents the Old Complexity, not the New Complexity. But cg is
> always behind the times hehe. I too wonder who composed it.
It's author tried to stay away from Old and New stupidity.
ag
Tommy Grand
> "Tommy Grand" <howardj...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:e5521334-23b6-48bd...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I think this music, sounds a little old fashioned. This piece
> > represents the Old Complexity, not the New Complexity. But cg is
> > always behind the times hehe. I too wonder who composed it.
>
> It's author tried to stay away from Old and New stupidity.
Well I think you are wrong about atonal music being considered
inaccessible to audiences. I go to a lot of concerts and such music
is frequently on the program. But atonlity per se is not interesting
anymore. Boring atonal music used to be enough, just because of the
novelty factor!
In the concert hall, people want to hear something thrilling &
exciting. At home, they want music that establishes a consistent mood
(so they don't have to constantly get up to tweak the volume on their
hi fi).
fol...@yahoo.com
> novelty factor!
>
> In the concert hall, people want to hear something thrilling &
> exciting. At home, they want music that establishes a consistent mood
> (so they don't have to constantly get up to tweak the volume on their
> hi fi).
Tommy,
That is an old way of thinking... new sound systems come with remote
controls..
David Raleigh Arnold
> Complexity in postmodernity, as foucault nicely stated is the diffence
> of heterogenity and unification. The latter is not implemented in the
> art of composition, but must be established IN the writer himself. What
> we are talking about is the complex -going-back-and forth between the
> composers sane, unified subjectivity and the radical heterogenity of the
> other. Art is one of the ONLY places that this is expressed.
This IMO is another useless slogan like "unity and variety".
Of course "the latter" is implemented in the art of composition, or
any other art, which always must have form, unity of a sort, to even be
art. To say that the artist must have established unity, or any other
quality for that matter, in himself for it to be reflected in his work at
least makes sense, but your quotation does not say that, and I beg to
differ with your thesis as quoted.
How is radical heterogeneity different from any other heterogeneity?
The word is long enough by itself, don't you think? Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
Music theory should be clues you can use,
not blues you can't lose.
agil
"Tommy Grand" <howar...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:bc84aacf-d94d-4f42...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 4, 1:38 am, "agil" <calatrav...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Tommy Grand" <howardj...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel
>> messaggionews:e5521334-23b6-48bd...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > I think this music, sounds a little old fashioned. This piece
>> > represents the Old Complexity, not the New Complexity. But cg is
>> > always behind the times hehe. I too wonder who composed it.
>>
>> It's author tried to stay away from Old and New stupidity.
>
> Well I think you are wrong about atonal music being considered
> inaccessible to audiences.
It was not me to believe and to declare that, it was someone on rmcg. This
is why I linked a sample of an atonal piece to rcmg, not to the world.
> I go to a lot of concerts and such music
> is frequently on the program. But atonlity per se is not interesting
> anymore.
Atonality per se is of course a senseless expression. Any language, made
marvelous by great poets, turns into an ugly language when spken by idiots.
> Boring atonal music used to be enough, just because of the
> novelty factor!
On 2010, labelling as a novelty a piece because of its being atonal would be
a stellar example of that Old & New Stupidity of which - perhaps
conceitedly - I believe I am not a part.
Not even occasionally.
>
> In the concert hall, people want to hear something thrilling &
> exciting. At home, they want music that establishes a consistent mood
> (so they don't have to constantly get up to tweak the volume on their
> hi fi).
I never realized that, when reading one of your messages, I was actually
listening to the Voice of People: I really believed you were just one
person. Now I have a message to send to People: please forward it to them:
their excitements and moods are the least and the last target of at least
one old European composer: modestly, he may trust the intelligence of
listeners who do not regard composers as waiters.
ag
Tommy Grand
> their excitements and moods are the least and the last target of at least
> one old European composer
But you brought up the topic. Anyway, I applaud your musical
idealism. To hell with passing fancy and bourgeoisie tastes. A true
artists answers to a higher authority.
William D Clinger
> I thought that the rmcg judges are not perhaps completely entitled
> to pronounce their sentences beyond the area of their boots.
Agreed. (I assume you refer to the judges for the
rmcg harmonization contest announced by Andresito.)
> Atonality per se is of course a senseless expression. Any language, made
> marvelous by great poets, turns into an ugly language when spoken by idiots.
The judges' support for that statement is exemplary.
> I never realized that, when reading one of your messages, I was actually
> listening to the Voice of People: I really believed you were just one
> person.
Although Tommy Grand is mostly fictional, and just
one of the three judges, he imagines himself to be
a real People.
> Now I have a message to send to People: please forward it to them:
Will do, if and when I ever meet another People.
> their excitements and moods are the least and the last target of at least
> one old European composer: modestly, he may trust the intelligence of
> listeners who do not regard composers as waiters.
Better than trusting the intelligence of listeners
who do.
Will
augusti...@yahoo.com
diffence of heterogenity and unification.”
When putting on airs, not every writer can be bothered with
spelling, punctuation, word choice, and clarity. So as a public
service, I’ll translate the above sentence into somewhat more
comprehensible language:
“Complexity in post-modernity, as French philosopher Michel
Foucault nicely stated, is the difference between heterogeneity
and unification.”
Of course, the original sentence was written by a post-modern
wannabe. Bearing this in mind, I tried to retain a touch of obscurity.
Too much clarity might have gotten the author drummed out of
the tribe.
Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA
Dicerous
Dicerous
> On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 22:10:55 -0800, Dicerous wrote:
> > Complexity in postmodernity, as foucault nicely stated is the diffence
> > of heterogenity and unification. The latter is not implemented in the
> > art of composition, but must be established IN the writer himself. What
> > we are talking about is the complex -going-back-and forth between the
> > composers sane, unified subjectivity and the radical heterogenity of the
> > other. Art is one of the ONLY places that this is expressed.
>
> This IMO is another useless slogan like "unity and variety".
>
> Of course "the latter" is implemented in the art of composition, or
> any other art, which always must have form, unity of a sort, to even be
> art. To say that the artist must have established unity, or any other
> quality for that matter, in himself for it to be reflected in his work at
> least makes sense, but your quotation does not say that, and I beg to
> differ with your thesis as quoted.
>
> How is radical heterogeneity different from any other heterogeneity?
> The word is long enough by itself, don't you think? Regards, daveA
>
> --
> For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
> better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
>
> Music theory should be clues you can use,
> not blues you can't lose.
It's a direct answer to scientific positivism of the turn of the
century. Scientific heterogeneity may or may not have explanations.
Radical heterogeneity is searching for an explanation but just the
experience of a direct aesthetic experience. As a self-proclaimed
*buddhist* I thought the concept might have a certain appeal to you.
David
Dicerous
BTW poor tom poore, there is a difference between teaching and
cavilling. *Difference of* is A propadeutic, *Difference between* is
THE propadeutic. You're still a little snot without an understanding
of the fine art of teaching difficult concepts.
dsi1
> �Complexity in postmodernity, as foucault nicely stated is the
> diffence of heterogenity and unification.�
>
> When putting on airs, not every writer can be bothered with
> spelling, punctuation, word choice, and clarity. So as a public
> comprehensible language:
>
> �Complexity in post-modernity, as French philosopher Michel
> Foucault nicely stated, is the difference between heterogeneity
>
> Of course, the original sentence was written by a post-modern
> wannabe. Bearing this in mind, I tried to retain a touch of obscurity.
> Too much clarity might have gotten the author drummed out of
> the tribe.
>
> Tom Poore
> South Euclid, OH
> USA
I never could understand what the heck D was talking about and your
translation is a small peak into that big black box. Thanks for the
translation - any insight into this goofy-speak is appreciated!
William D Clinger
> BTW poor tom poore, there is a difference between teaching and
> cavilling. *Difference of* is A propadeutic, *Difference between* is
> THE propadeutic. You're still a little snot without an understanding
> of the fine art of teaching difficult concepts.
Translation: When putting on airs, not every writer
can be bothered to have even an introductory concept
of what he'd like us to think he's trying to teach.
Will
Dicerous
It's perfectly understandable will, what don't you understand?
Tommy Grand
They are both jealous of you.
Dicerous
I think it's a *control issue*.
Dicerous
I picture Will sitting in his outhouse on some remote island trying to
extricate a big turd and complaining to his wife about it.
Tommy Grand
> I picture Will sitting in his outhouse on some remote island trying to
> extricate a big turd and complaining to his wife about it.
Grody to the max.
Richard Yates
Yes. Perhaps Diceous is relying on our understanding the foundations of his
exposition as found in Alan Sokal's paper "Transgressing the Boundaries:
Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity." You have to
admit that there is at least an air of similarity if not a discernible
connection.
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
Dicerous
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
That pussilanamous territorialization was written in 1995 well after
foucault et al. But it does mark the importance of postmodernism in
hermeneutics, which of course is the *good sauce* as opposed to turkey
gravy.
William D Clinger
> Yes. Perhaps Diceous is relying on our understanding the foundations of his
> exposition as found in Alan Sokal's paper "Transgressing the Boundaries:
> Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity." You have to
> admit that there is at least an air of similarity if not a discernible
> connection.
Indeed. Dicerous has reminded me of The Valve, a Literary
Organ devoted to Improving Circulation and Venting Steam.
After reading Scott Eric Kaufman's mercifully short "With
Apologies, a Little More Foucault", a thinker who mentioned
his former career as undergraduate added this comment [1,2]:
In a hundred years, perhaps all or much of what Foucault
wrote as his history might be wrong, but the ideas behind
it will probably remain influential.
Foucault in a nutshell.
Dicerous wrote:
> That pussilanamous territorialization was written in 1995 well after
> foucault et al. But it does mark the importance of postmodernism in
> hermeneutics, which of course is the *good sauce* as opposed to turkey
> gravy.
No, Barbancourt is the *good sauce*.
I'm content with Balvenie 15: medium-old, neither
propadeutic nor postmodern nor turkey gravy.
Will
[1] Scott Eric Kaufman. With Apologies, a Little More Foucault.
The Valve, 5 April 2007, 9:57pm.
http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/with_apologies_a_little_more_foucault/
[2] Alex. Comment on [1]. The Valve, 5 April 2007, 11:54pm.
http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/with_apologies_a_little_more_foucault/#15153
Dicerous
>
> [2] Alex. Comment on [1]. The Valve, 5 April 2007, 11:54pm.http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/with_apologies_a_little_more...
Aesthetic events (i.e. music) by nature are ahistorical. They have
duration but duration and historicity are two different concepts (I'm
sure I don't have to tell you). It's actually very relevant to the
discussion we're having. Artists demand the experience of ahistorical
reverie, and that's something that teacher's should be aware of. The
loosening of the moorings of time and place is essential for the
understanding of music. Metaphysics is a good place to start.
Dicerous
>
> [2] Alex. Comment on [1]. The Valve, 5 April 2007, 11:54pm.http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/with_apologies_a_little_more...
It's clear by your understanding that you equate barbancourt with
hermeneutics. I said that postmodernism is important in
hermeneutics. But isn't misreading what it's all about?
Dicerous
>
> It's clear by your understanding that you equate barbancourt with
> hermeneutics. I said that postmodernism is important in
> hermeneutics. But isn't misreading what it's all about?
Think of me as Dostoevsky's epileptic idiot or Joyce's constipated man
and you'll get the idea. The goal is aesthetic production.
David Raleigh Arnold
Fair enough, but the quote is still not ok. Is it
a bad translation? Regards, daveA
William D Clinger
> It's clear by your understanding that you equate barbancourt with
> hermeneutics. I said that postmodernism is important in
> hermeneutics. But isn't misreading what it's all about?
Misreading is what your postmodernism is all about, but
I wouldn't generalize that to true postmodernism.
For example, I did *not* equate Barbancourt with hermeneutics.
Indeed, I stated two facts contrary to that equation.
First I wrote "no", denying your claim that hermeneutics
is the good sauce. I then noted that Barbancourt is the
good sauce. Having stated that Barbancourt is the good
sauce, and hermeneutics is not, only a misreader could
think I had equated the two.
Will
Dicerous
> better chord and arpeggio exercises. http://www.openguitar.com
>
> Music theory should be clues you can use,
> not blues you can't lose.
I believe you will find it in Rabinow's translation. The *quote* is
fine, or at least my paraphrasis. I've found that you have a very
hard time understanding *contexual cues* david. Not just from this
misreading, but in other places. Is english not your first language?
Best,
David
Dicerous
denial is one of the harbingers of alcoholism will. god bless.
Alain Reiher
"William D Clinger" <cesu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e75fcf42-a8bb-4fa5...@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
By the way ... today is the 50th anniversary of Albert Camus death ....
I wonder what he would have say about the world we live in today!
http://petitchap.blogspot.com/2010/01/albert-camus-est-mort-il-y-50-ans.html
Alain
Dicerous
> "William D Clinger" <cesur...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:e75fcf42-a8bb-4fa5...@21g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
> > [2] Alex. Comment on [1]. The Valve, 5 April 2007, 11:54pm.
>
> By the way ... today is the 50th anniversary of Albert Camus death ....
> I wonder what he would have say about the world we live in today!
>
>
> Alain
There's something wonderfully romantic about giving camus the whole
front page. I think in amerika, the front page would be filled with
paris hilton or tiger woods or some other champion of oprahism. I
wish I was a better french speaker.
William D Clinger
> By the way ... today is the 50th anniversary of Albert Camus death ....
> I wonder what he would have say about the world we live in today!
On this 50th anniversary of his death, let us recall what
Camus had to say about classical guitar:
The gods had condemned Sisyphus to ceaselessly rolling
a rock to the top of a mountain, whence the stone would
fall back of its own weight. They had thought with some
reason that there is no more dreadful punishment than
futile and hopeless labor.
....The struggle itself towards the heights is enough
to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus
(translated by Justin O'Brien)
Dicerous
david,
sorry for the misunderstanding. Foucault's *statement* wasn't about
complexity but about subjectivity and truth which I generalized to be
the gist of the problem. So I shouldn't have said *as Foucault so
nicely states* because no doubt that man would have tortured me into
submission if I had attributed it to him. I don't claim to be
anything close to these great thinkers, I'm just trying to reframe the
problem so that it's clearer.
I don't think he would have had a problem with the problematic of
complexity stated as such except for the attribution. Who knows?
ktaylor
> "ktaylor" <childbl...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:93232833-1890-4d70...@26g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 4:42 am, "agil" <calatrav...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Atonal music is usually considered hardly accessible to audiences.
> >> Here, captured from youtube, the final movement of the premiere (given in
> >> Moscow, I believe) of an atonal concerto for guitar and orchestra.
> >> The soloist - Dimitri Illarionov, a great performer - here employs a
> >> Russian guitar too weak for his powers, but the orchestra and the
> >> conductor
> >> are working at their normal good standard.
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9RMscmQjg
>
> >> ag
>
> > I am not sure what you are suggesting bringing this to our attention,
> > although I listened to it and found it interesting. It sounded as if
> > the guitarist was amplified and I did not notice any weakness either
> > in volume or orchestral confusion (and I was listening with headphones
> > that produced very clear sound).
>
> > I believe that atonal and aleatory music are sometimes confused,
> > though I know they are not confused by you. It is not all that
> > challenging to listen to atonality - although I though this piece
> > sounded bi-tonal in the beginning (I would have to listen to it again
> > to discern it better). I think most 21st century listeners can accept
> > atonality as long as there are other aspects that tether the music to
> > some coherency. In this piece, the unifying aspects are the meter and
> > rhythm, the subject form, and the interplay between the orchestra and
> > soloist. The elements of interest are the orchestration (very, very
> > nice) and the itterations of the subject. The emotive response does
> > not come from any melodic narrative, so if one does not look for that
> > it is not missed. Without those unifying elements, I don't think the
> > piece exists. Did you compose this? It is a very clear work and not
> > all that difficult to listen to.
>
> > Kevin Taylor
>
> Hello Kevin, I did not refer to any specifical target with posting this
> link, except perhaps asking a few good willing listeners to realize that
> non-tonal music is not forbidden to audiences which attend concerts whose
> programs feature classical music. In this newsgroup, in the past, it
> happened to me reading universal condemnations of "atonal" music and, after
> watching to this file on youtube - kindly forwarded to me by someone who
> knows I can't read Cyrillic - and observing the reaction of the audience -
> which applauded with its normal warmth, like after the performance of the
> Bolero - I thought that the rmcg judges are not perhaps completely entitled
> to pronounce their sentences beyond the area of their boots.
>
> Incidentally, yes, it it the third and last movement of my "Concerto di
> Novgorod" for Russian 7 String Guitar and Orchestra. Dimitri was its first
> performer in Italy, and he featured it also in the Moscow concert from which
> the youtube file was taken. Here he works with a good orchestra and with a
> good conductor.
>
> Ciao.
>
> ag
Angelo,
If the warmth was the same as for a Bolero, I doubt if the fuel was
the same.
I think, judging from this work, that you reflect consideration for an
audience beyond yourself. Yet you do not compromise your language.
This must have been exhilerating to write. It makes me wonder how the
other movements related to this one. Are they online also?
Kevin
Tommy Grand
> I think, judging from this work, that you reflect consideration for an
> audience beyond yourself. Yet you do not compromise your language.
> This must have been exhilerating to write. It makes me wonder how the
> other movements related to this one. Are they online also?
KT, if you found AG's atonal concerto to be challenging and
exhilerating, this will postively blow your mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47Oa_2IJub0&feature=PlayList&p=994D73F79D8F8688&index=0&playnext=1
Now if you'll excuse me I have a flux capacitor to fix.
fol...@yahoo.com
Maurizio Pollini performed Stockhausen's "Klavierstuck X".
At the end of the piece, the audience of just about 3000 people
erupted into the most incredible applause I have ever heard. The
performance was so magnificent and the piece so spectacular that this
concert and the audience reaction is now legendary.
The language of the piece, atonal to say the least, was secondary.
mark
On Jan 4, 11:57 pm, Tommy Grand <howardj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 10:38 pm, ktaylor <childbl...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I think, judging from this work, that you reflect consideration for an
> > audience beyond yourself. Yet you do not compromise your language.
> > This must have been exhilerating to write. It makes me wonder how the
> > other movements related to this one. Are they online also?
>
> KT, if you found AG's atonal concerto to be challenging and
> exhilerating, this will postively blow your mind:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47Oa_2IJub0&feature=PlayList&p=994D73F...
Dicerous
Noam Chomsky on Derrida:
*So take Derrida, one of the grand old men. I thought I ought to at
least be able to understand his Grammatology, so tried to read it. I
could make out some of it, for example, the critical analysis of
classical texts that I knew very well and had written about years
before. I found the scholarship appalling, based on pathetic
misreading; and the argument, such as it was, failed to come close to
the kinds of standards I've been familiar with since virtually
childhood. Well, maybe I missed something: could be, but suspicions
remain, as noted. Again, sorry to make unsupported comments, but I was
asked, and therefore am answering.*
Dicerous
Is noam saying he likes tonality over chaos? :)
agil
"ktaylor" <child...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:8330dc5c-82a8-4bb0...@r10g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> Angelo,
>
> If the warmth was the same as for a Bolero, I doubt if the fuel was
> the same.
>
> I think, judging from this work, that you reflect consideration for an
> audience beyond yourself. Yet you do not compromise your language.
> This must have been exhilerating to write. It makes me wonder how the
> other movements related to this one. Are they online also?
>
> Kevin
This last movement is entitled "Korochun". In the ancient Russian tradition,
this is the name of a festival whose characters anticipate those of the
Halloween.
I have evocated the narrative style of a fairy tale with evocating also (not
imitating) the ancient Rondo form, and you will have noticed that in the
slower sections I used the 5/4 meter of several masterpieces of Russian
music. The first movement is much more dramatic, whilst the second is
entitled "Kolibenaya", which means Lullaby. So far, I have composed three
works for Russian guitar, this Concerto, a Sonata entitled Winter Tales and,
formerly, a piece entitled Ikonostas, conceived as a homage to the memory of
the great Russian scientist and philosopher Pavel Florenskij.
I have no idea of whether they are online: I simply received from a friend a
link to this file, which I would have never met, because I can't read
Cyrillic. Incidentally, just yesterday - after posting the link to rmcg - I
learnt that one the of greatest Russian conductors has the score of the
Concerto in his hands so, who knows, maybe in a not too long while we will
have a chance to listen to the whole piece in a CD.
ag
agil
<fol...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:19ae73a3-be80-4e53...@u37g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
> I was lucky to have been a part of the audience Carnegie Hall when
> Maurizio Pollini performed Stockhausen's "Klavierstuck X".
>
> At the end of the piece, the audience of just about 3000 people
> erupted into the most incredible applause I have ever heard. The
> performance was so magnificent and the piece so spectacular that this
> concert and the audience reaction is now legendary.
>
> The language of the piece, atonal to say the least, was secondary.
>
> mark
Only among guitarists - and, I have to honestly add, among USA guitarists -
I have met signs of intolerance toward atonal music as such, independently
from which atonal piece it was the case, who wrote it, how it was written.
ag
Tommy Grand
> I was lucky to have been a part of the audience Carnegie Hall when
> Maurizio Pollini performed Stockhausen's "Klavierstuck X".
>
> At the end of the piece, the audience of just about 3000 people
> erupted into the most incredible applause I have ever heard. The
> performance was so magnificent and the piece so spectacular that this
> concert and the audience reaction is now legendary.
>
> The language of the piece, atonal to say the least, was secondary.
Like I said, people like to watch exciting performances at the concert
hall. It helps to have a large percussion section throwing objects
around. I attended a performance of Ligeti's "Nouvelles Aventures"
where the percussionist was required to smash plates & bowls and drop
a bunch of stuff into a vat of water. At least I think it was
Nouvelles Aventures. That kind of fun doesn't come across on CD.
Mark how many times have you listened to "Klavierstuck X" on CD.
Pollini came here and played a Boulez piano sonata. Didn't see it,
but I bet the peice 10x more interesting live than on disc.
Tommy Grand
> Noam Chomsky on Derrida:
>
> *So take Derrida, one of the grand old men. I thought I ought to at
> least be able to understand his Grammatology, so tried to read it. I
> could make out some of it, for example, the critical analysis of
> classical texts that I knew very well and had written about years
> before. I found the scholarship appalling, based on pathetic
> misreading; and the argument, such as it was, failed to come close to
> the kinds of standards I've been familiar with since virtually
> childhood. Well, maybe I missed something: could be, but suspicions
> remain, as noted. Again, sorry to make unsupported comments, but I was
> asked, and therefore am answering.*
Chomsky could just as easily be referring to any of his political
tracts.
fol...@yahoo.com
> Mark how many times have you listened to "Klavierstuck X" on CD.
> Pollini came here and played a Boulez piano sonata. Didn't see it,
> but I bet the peice 10x more interesting live than on disc.
I don't know exactly but I have listened to "Klavierstuck X" on CD
more times than I have listened to Recuerdos de la Alhambra or
Capriccio Arabe on CD.
And for sure I listened to and studied the score of Boulez's Sonata
2. This is a masterpiece of post war music and even makes reference to
Beethoven...
Tommy, I studied with a student of Roger Sessions from the time I was
15-18. I became familiar with the works of Boulez, Stockhausen,
Schoenberg, Webern, Varese very early on.
This is meat and potatoes.
Mark
Best,
Mark
fol...@yahoo.com
>
> Only among guitarists - and, I have to honestly add, among USA guitarists -
> I have met signs of intolerance toward atonal music as such, independently
> from which atonal piece it was the case, who wrote it, how it was written.
>
> ag
Angelo,
I hope your knowledge of US guitarists goes quite a bit beyond those
in this newsgroup.As intelligent as RCMGers are or can be, most are
amateurs deeply concerned with the basic mechanics of playing the
guitar (an interesting topic and I am often impressed with the
observations on technique by the most loony characters here).
Mark
Tommy Grand
> I hope your knowledge of US guitarists goes quite a bit beyond those
> in this newsgroup.As intelligent as RCMGers are or can be, most are
> amateurs deeply concerned with the basic mechanics of playing the
> guitar (an interesting topic and I am often impressed with the
> observations on technique by the most loony characters here).
So what if we're amateurs? BTW tell us who impresses you.
Tommy Grand
> Tommy, I studied with a student of Roger Sessions from the time I was
> 15-18. I became familiar with the works of Boulez, Stockhausen,
> Schoenberg, Webern, Varese very early on.
>
> This is meat and potatoes.
Why do you think I called it old fashiond LOL.
fol...@yahoo.com
I didn't mean amatuers in any negative sense and,Tommy, you impress
me!
I roomed with a guitarist friend (a friend at the time anyway) during
the GFA in Buffalo.
This friend was a very well known player and has since stopped
performing but is one of the most powerful figures in the guitar world
(I say a "friend at the time" because he wouldn't return my e-mails
these days since all guitarists contact him because they want
something from him).
He studied with Shearer. I asked what it was like. My friend told me
that he asked Shearer what he would like to do if he could play guitar
again (as you know, Shearer was an injured guitarist).
Shearer smiled and looked beatific and said (something like...I
paraphrase) " I would love to be able to play Recuerdos de la
Alhambra".
If newsgroups have Sprites I would say Shearer is it
Mark
Mark
fol...@yahoo.com
I still have alot of hair, though!
Tommy Grand
> I didn't mean amatuers in any negative sense and,Tommy, you impress
> me!
A good start. Now convince me!
> I roomed with a guitarist friend (a friend at the time anyway) during
> the GFA in Buffalo.
> This friend was a very well known player and has since stopped
> performing but is one of the most powerful figures in the guitar world
> (I say a "friend at the time" because he wouldn't return my e-mails
> these days since all guitarists contact him because they want
> something from him).
>
> He studied with Shearer. I asked what it was like. My friend told me
> that he asked Shearer what he would like to do if he could play guitar
> again (as you know, Shearer was an injured guitarist).
> Shearer smiled and looked beatific and said (something like...I
> paraphrase) " I would love to be able to play Recuerdos de la
> Alhambra".
>
> If newsgroups have Sprites I would say Shearer is it
I'm trying to guess who this is, but believe it or not I'm struggling
to imagine anyone powerful in the guitar world. Give me a hint!
BTW Mark, if I could go back and become the trombone virtuoso I always
wanted to be, this is the piece I would play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A47oZITKz7Q
Tommy Grand
I'm looking more like Schoenberg every day.
agil
<fol...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:8667c2b7-df51-41c8...@z7g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
> Angelo,
>
> I hope your knowledge of US guitarists goes quite a bit beyond those
> in this newsgroup.As intelligent as RCMGers are or can be, most are
> amateurs deeply concerned with the basic mechanics of playing the
> guitar (an interesting topic and I am often impressed with the
> observations on technique by the most loony characters here).
>
> Mark
I believe my knowledge of US guitarists is unfortunately a limited one,
yet - I would risk to say - picked up with no prejudgements.
It simply happened that an outstanding Italian guitarist, who had sent a
tape of a live performance of his to a programmer, was told that it was
impossibile to feature that piece because it was atonal.
Not badly conceived or unskilfully written, but atonal. Subsequently, I read
on rcgm an urbi et orbi condemnation of atonal music. Because it never
happened to me to meet such categorical judgements, I thought that perhaps
in the USA atonality is regarded as a sort of adverse religion, and those
musicians who deal with it are kept under control by the CIA.
Ciao Mark.
ag
fol...@yahoo.com
The request not to play atonal music is often hidden under the
question: "Is it accessible?"
My advice to someone trying to make a career in the US would be play
what you have to in order to stay in good graces with the concert
promoters until your career is at such a point that you can play what
you want to play...and maybe even commission new pieces!
If a concert is for a guitar audience, you can get away with playing
something as "far out" as Canticum by Brouwer or some other name
guitar composer.
If it is for a community concert series, avoid all modern music past
Villa Lobos unless it is the New Age (hot tub) variety
If it is for an urbane audience in a big east or west coast city, a
guitarist can probably play what he wants if the guitarist has a
reputation via great reviews or is a competition winner.
Also, in some cities, there is a specialized audience for "atonal
music"
Best,
Mark
On Jan 5, 11:41 am, "agil" <calatrav...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> <foli...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:8667c2b7-df51-41c8...@z7g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
ktaylor
> Hi Angelo,
>
> The request not to play atonal music is often hidden under the
> question: "Is it accessible?"
>
> My advice to someone trying to make a career in the US would be play
> what you have to in order to stay in good graces with the concert
> promoters until your career is at such a point that you can play what
> you want to play...and maybe even commission new pieces!
>
> If a concert is for a guitar audience, you can get away with playing
> something as "far out" as Canticum by Brouwer or some other name
> guitar composer.
>
> If it is for a community concert series, avoid all modern music past
> Villa Lobos unless it is the New Age (hot tub) variety
>
> If it is for an urbane audience in a big east or west coast city, a
> guitarist can probably play what he wants if the guitarist has a
> reputation via great reviews or is a competition winner.
>
> Also, in some cities, there is a specialized audience for "atonal
> music"
>
> Best,
> Mark
>
Among the urbane on the coasts there may be a niche audience for just
about anything.
How one uses atonality seems to me to be the issue in its acceptance
and its aesthetic relevance. Is it not just another tool or is it an
end?
Kevin T.
William D Clinger
> How one uses atonality seems to me to be the issue in its acceptance
> and its aesthetic relevance. Is it not just another tool or is it an
> end?
It's a medium, isn't it? Neither brush nor painting.
Will
agil
"ktaylor" <child...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:55618357-a9e3-49b0...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Among the urbane on the coasts there may be a niche audience for just
> about anything.
>
> How one uses atonality seems to me to be the issue in its acceptance
> and its aesthetic relevance. Is it not just another tool or is it an
> end?
>
> Kevin T.
A composer discovers which sort of language has adopted when he has finished
his piece.
I believe that nobody decides to write an atonal piece. It happens note by
note, following the stars...
ag
Of course, when setting a popular song for guitar under commission it could
hardly happen to device an atonal harmony.
Castelnuovo-Tedesco wrote a serial piece with a completely tonal harmony.
Tommy Grand
Polytonality is far more interesting than atonality imo.
Tommy Grand
> I believe that nobody decides to write an atonal piece. It happens note by
> note, following the stars...
What about Webern.
agil
"Tommy Grand" <howar...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3d5d7009-64c1-4756...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
A highly inspired composer.
ag
agil
"Tommy Grand" <howar...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:bf4c6f5d-e2fc-42a8...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Yes, and taxis are more interesting than trains (outside the railway
station).
ag
fol...@yahoo.com
You are right about Webern!
Below is a quote by Schoenberg that appears on the back of
Slonimsky's famous book "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns":
"I looked through your whole book and was very interested to find that
you have in all probability organized every possible succession of
tones. This is an admirable feat of mental gymnastics. But as a
composer, I must believe in inspiration rather than in mechanics."
Arnold Schoenberg
Tommy Grand
> Angelo,
> You are right about Webern!
Inspired or not, he certainly set out to write atonally.
fol...@yahoo.com
Below is to a piece by a composer that has written a "Bagatelle sans
tonalité":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwS4kyGl1nE
And here an early serial effort by another great composer who was
inspired by Schoenberg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8yxw3P2Jck
Remember: serial does not mean atonal or even 12 tone...you can have
rows of fewer than 12 notes.
Best,
Mark
On Jan 5, 10:58 pm, "agil" <calatrav...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "ktaylor" <childbl...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:55618357-a9e3-49b0...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
fol...@yahoo.com
Do you think that Burt Bacharach sits down at the piano and says " I
am now going to write tonal music"
I think Schoenberg and Webern were not self-conscious.
A student is self-conscious, a master is not.
When you order a coffee at your favorite coffee shop, are you aware
that you are speaking English?
Best,
Mark
Tommy Grand
> I think Schoenberg and Webern were not self-conscious.
You've gotta be kidding, lol. Have you read what these guys were
actually like?
Tommy Grand
> And here an early serial effort by another great composer who was
> inspired by Schoenberg:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8yxw3P2Jck
I like this one. When I was a kid, I somehow had the impression that
it was fashionable to hate Stravinsky and idolize Schoenberg. My
local library had a lot of outdated music books, maybe that is why.
Anyway I'm just now appreciating Igor's genius relatively late in
life. Look at this marvy concert I'm going to next month:
http://www.cso.org/main.taf?p=3,11,6,1&EventID=3016
fol...@yahoo.com
They mastered an internally coherent system.
Tommy Grand
Yes, a system. I thought AG was suggesting they might have
inadvertently composed a 12 tone piece in a fit of divine
inspiration. Nay, it's a conscious effort, undertaken with sufficient
reflection and full consent of the will!
"About 1911 I wrote the Bagatelles for String Quartet, Op. 9, all very
short pieces, lasting a couple of minutes – perhaps the shortest music
so far – here I had the feeling, ‘When all twelve notes have gone by,
the piece is over’ … In short, a rule of lawemerged; until all twelve
notes have occurred, none of them may occur again. The most important
thing is that each ‘run’ of twelve notes marked a division within the
piece, idea or theme"
fol...@yahoo.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUHQ2ybTejU
Tommy Grand
> Here is another inspired composer writing highly crafted music
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUHQ2ybTejU
Inspired, yea, but not accidental. I disagree w/AG's assertion that
nobody sets out to write an atonal piece. In fact, my understanding
is that you almost had to write serially in the 50's and 60's to have
a career.