Stockhausen's decline in public eyes
Christopher Culver
he's doing now, and am certainly not one of the many fans of
contemporary music who think his days as a good composer is long over.
However, I'm very intrigued by the arc of his career. In the late
1960s and early 1970s, his concerts were consistently selling out,
young people were seeking out his music in droves, and his ensemble
was performing in wild and exclusive venues. But then, he has become
one of the most isolated and forgotten composers among the modernists,
with his works rarely issued by any label but his own, and little
scholarship written on what he's been up to since.
Is there any biography of Stockhausen which covers his
marginalization, charting the changes in public response to his work
and the role he himself might have played? The only biography I've
read of the composer is that published by Faber and Faber, and while
it gives much information about his work, it doesn't give much of a
wider context.
Also, does anyone think that the parallels between Stockhausen and
Miles Davis are remarkable? Both were at the height of popularity and
drew their greatest crowds at the same time, before fading out of view
for a long time.
Don Phillipson
news:1184544722....@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> I enjoy Stockhausen's music from the early pieces right up to what
> he's doing now, and am certainly not one of the many fans of
> contemporary music who think his days as a good composer is long over.
> . . . he has become
> one of the most isolated and forgotten composers among the modernists,
> with his works rarely issued by any label but his own, and little
> scholarship written on what he's been up to since. . . .
> The only biography I've
> read of the composer is that published by Faber and Faber, and while
> it gives much information about his work, it doesn't give much of a
> wider context.
Why not review Stockhausen's page in Wikipedia and (write a better
one and) criticize it here?
Some historians seem to think it normal that creative juices
dry up when an artist is over 70. Of course we should not expect
poets, composers, painters and performers all to age uniformly.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Christopher Culver
wrote:
> Why not review Stockhausen's page in Wikipedia and (write a better
> one and) criticize it here?
I'm looking for reputable article- or book-length publishing, not a
meagre pseudo-encyclopedia article that amounts to little more than a
chronology of his works.
> Some historians seem to think it normal that creative juices
> dry up when an artist is over 70.
Stockhausen was in his mid-50s when his popularity declined.
Adam
..
Also, does anyone think that the parallels between Stockhausen
and Miles Davis are remarkable? Both were at the height of
popularity and drew their greatest crowds at the same time,
before fading out of view for a long time.
..
Being somewhat familiar with both MD and KS, I think the parallel
is minimal. Popularity and innovation are uncommon bedfellows.
MD pre mid-1970s put his name to many compositions not his own, and
post-1970s sold out terribly. At all times riding on the creative
juices of his sidemen and producers - none more so than Teo Macero
who tape-spliced and mixed masterpieces. Teo Macero, the innovator.
KS is arguably more popular, and more understood, now than ever.
KS the innovator. His concerts around the UK of old or new material
are always packed - and they have been for 20 years at least.
> I'm looking for reputable article- or book-length publishing, not a
> meagre pseudo-encyclopedia article that amounts to little more than a
> chronology of his works.
The recent Robin Maconie book has been well received and well reviewed.
Biscuits and Books
news:f7estm$m0$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> At all times riding on the creative
> juices of his sidemen and producers - none more so than Teo Macero
> who tape-spliced and mixed masterpieces. Teo Macero, the innovator.
Interesting that you bring up Macero. He had a Varese score ["Time and
Space" or something like that] that Johnny Reinhard got a copy of. Macero
wasn't doing too well with it and Reinhard was, but Macero has apparently
vetoed any non-Macero performance or recording. This may be old news
though.
Christopher Culver
> KS is arguably more popular, and more understood, now than ever.
With respect, I dispute that. KS is no longer the pop culture
phenomenon that biographies show him to have been 35+ years ago, he
doesn't have millions of people regularly exposed to his music as
during the Osaka days, and his record sales must be dismal because
there hardly are Stockhausen records anymore (even I, a fan, hate
going through the ordeal of ordering from S-V).
> KS the innovator. His concerts around the UK of old or new material
> are always packed - and they have been for 20 years at least.
Stockhausen concerts are much less frequent than they once were.
> The recent Robin Maconie book has been well received and well reviewed.
Do you mean OTHER PLANETS? I was disappointed by it. Maconie seems to
be talking to himself much of the time and, again, while it's about
Stockhausen's music, it doesn't track the changes in Stockhausen's
popularity much.
Nigel Curtis
Maconie in his earlier book (1st edition at least) predicts that S's
reputation is certain to increase once he dies!
If one of the inheriting familiy members gets some business-minded
suits on board, things could be very different indeed. Stagings of
LICHT will surely be more likely when directors are given some free
reign - rather than being constricted by the composer's naff-looking
designs and costumes.
A good commercial decision would surely be a double-CD of LICHT
highlights which you can actually buy in a shop or order on AMazon. He
could squeeze a lot into a double album (Ave, Pieta,Examen etc)
n
Don Phillipson
> > Why not review Stockhausen's page in Wikipedia and (write a better
> > one and) criticize it here?
>
> I'm looking for reputable article- or book-length publishing, not a
> meagre pseudo-encyclopedia article that amounts to little more than a
> chronology of his works. . . .
>
> Stockhausen was in his mid-50s when his popularity declined.
Now we are getting somewhere . . . Stockhausen's chronology
(of new compositions and ex-students) dates that he was most
productive precisely when his popularity was (supposedly) in
decline. I agree that this is too subtle a point to be dealt with
appropriately in Wikipedia -- so why not in an active newsgroup
e.g. rec.music.classical ?
Adam
[. . .]
> A good commercial decision would surely be a double-CD of LICHT
> highlights which you can actually buy in a shop or order on AMazon. He
> could squeeze a lot into a double album (Ave, Pieta,Examen etc).
> n.
I agree. Remember the "Stockhausen's Greatest Hits" release of the early
1980s ? It was popular !! Out on both cassette and LP at the time. The SV
releases are beautifully done, but I can't afford them.
As with Miles, the 'periods' of work are quite clear. Molded by sidemen in
MD's case, and often studios and other interests in the case of KS.
I must say, that these two each have such a fascinating and amazing total
body of work. Vastly different commercial, spiritual, interpersonal
imperatives probably. That true of very few others, but say, Xenakis,
Jean-Claude Eloy - and not many others all up.
Where popularity, marketting, success or commercial sense all overlap - I
simply don't know enough to comment.
Nigel Curtis
>>he was most productive precisely when his popularity
>>was (supposedly) in decline.
Well, you may well have a point here - but that was a long time ago -
it's been and gone. Perhaps a more pertinent issue is how history will
judge him.
I mean , will LICHT be seen as a framework for some short masterpieces
(Ave, Pieta, Wochenkreis, Examen etc ) and perhaps a few long ones
(LuzifersTanz) - but the concept of physically staging the seven
operas is seen as a joke.
It doesn't look good that for example Saturday hasn't been revived
anywhere since its first run over 2 decades ago. There's some fine
music in it (eg Kathinkas Gesang), but it seems a shameless ragbag of
commissions strung together.
Maybe the dust will settle and the greatest bits of the cycle will go
their own way..?
nc
Paul Dirmeikis
decrease of Stockhausen's popularity.
Let's remember that pop stars such as The Beatles, Greatful Dead, Can,
and Miles Davis frequently quoted Stockhausen as influencing their
music, and therefore brought Stockhausen to the knowledge and interest
of their fans.
Let's remember too that very few contemporary composers at that time
were dealing with electronics means, and this new sound aspect surely
attracted many of the young audience. As well as the "Eastern
thinking" which could be related to Stockhausen's music at that time,
and which was very popular among the young people.
Not mentionning that Stockhausen had his records released by the most
important and well distributed labels (DGG and Sony), and this also
helped a lot for his popularity.
Nowadays, what do we have ? Apart from Anthony Braxton (but who's
interested in his music among young guys ?), and Bj?rk who regularly
quotes Stockhausen in her interviews, who else among pop or rock or
rap bands talks about Stockhausen's influence ?
Compared to the 60's and 70's, what is musically proposed to the
audience has been multiplied maybe by a thousand or even more. Browse
on the Internet and you find thousands of bands and composers who
attract and splits the audience.
Using electronic music has now become totally ordinary, and lost most
of its "exotic" and thrilling aspect.
Eastern philosophy has been given up, if not completely out-of-date.
And buying Stockhausen's CDs is now much more difficult since one has
to order them through postal means, and moreover, they are very
expensive. I don't think many young people actually make this effort
to go the post office and buy an expensive CD while they can freely
download almost whatever they want on the Internet.
I think that all this, added to a complete social and cultural
transformation of the meaning of art music for the young people since
the 60's, can explain why one could think that Stockhausen is "less
popular" nowadays.
But in my opinion, it has very little to do with his music itself.
Moreover, popularity is such a relative concept. Maybe Stockhausen
doesn't drain as many people as in Osaka, but each time I recently
attended one of his concerts, it was nevertheless ALWAYS crowded.
Paul Dirmeikis
www.dirmeikis.org
Paul Dirmeikis
decrease of Stockhausen's popularity.
Let's remember that pop stars such as The Beatles, Greatful Dead, Can,
and Miles Davis frequently quoted Stockhausen as influencing their
music, and therefore brought Stockhausen to the knowledge and interest
of their fans.
Let's remember too that very few contemporary composers at that time
were dealing with electronics means, and this new sound aspect surely
attracted many of the young audience. As well as the "Eastern
thinking" which could be related to Stockhausen's music at that time,
and which was very popular.
Not mentionning that Stockhausen had his records released by the most
important and well distributed labels (DGG and Sony), and it also
helped a lot for his popularity.
Nowadays, what do we have ? Apart from Anthony Braxton (but he's not
really from the young generation), and Bj?rk who regularly quotes
Stockhausen in her interviews, who else among pop or rock or rap bands
talks about Stockhausen's influence ? Compared to the 60's and 70's,
what is musically proposed to the audience has been multiplied maybe
by a thousand or even more. Browse on the Internet and you find
thousands of bands and composers who attract and splits the audience.
Using electronic music is now totally ordinary, and lost most of its
"exotic" and thrilling aspect.
Eastern philosophy has been given up, if not completely out-of-date.
And buying Stockhausen's CDs is now much more difficult since one has
to order them through postal means, and moreover they are quite
expensive. I don't think many young people actually make this effort
to go the post office and buy an expensive CD while they can freely
download almost whatever they want on the Internet.
I think that all this, added to a complete social and cultural
transformation of the meaning of art music for the young people since
the 60's, can explain why one could think that Stockhausen is "less
popular" nowadays. But I don't think it has anything to do with his
music. Moreover, popularity is such a relative concept. Maybe
Stockhausen doesn't drain as many people as in Osaka during the World
Fair, but every time I recently attended one of his concerts, it was
ALWAYS crowded.
BernardP
>
> Maconie in his earlier book (1st edition at least) predicts that S's
> reputation is certain to increase once he dies!
>
> If one of the inheriting familiy members gets some business-minded
> suits on board, things could be very different indeed. Stagings of
> LICHT will surely be more likely when directors are given some free
> reign - rather than being constricted by the composer's naff-looking
> designs and costumes.
each staged opera, and Stockhausen Verlag has bought the costumes afterwards
and stored them for use in semi-staged performances etc. While some costumes
might look a bit 1970s (like women from star wars or star trek perhaps?)
some are really great... Did you see the designs for the dancer mimes of
Dienstag? Could they be any better than they were? Admittedly designing the
costume for a dodecadigital lunar-titmouse, a weblike conjoined
baritone/mime-artist, or a tap-dancing trombonist matador will never evade
the eccentricity of the idea.
>
> A good commercial decision would surely be a double-CD of LICHT
> highlights which you can actually buy in a shop or order on AMazon. He
> could squeeze a lot into a double album (Ave, Pieta,Examen etc)
> n
Yes, I think such an idea could be used to promote particular pieces. But
aren't record shops cutting right back on all classical CDs now? Its
impossible to guarantee finding even standard classical repertory with a
visit to your local record store.
You can currently get Pieta from iTunes (and Amazon etc,) as part of an EMI
release (the same compilation as the Stockhausen Verlag sells as CD60). Halt
(from Michael's Reise), and Aries from Sirius are on the same compilation
which makes it good value for someone wanting to sample some major
Stockhausen compositions.
I used to travel far and wide looking for contemporary LPs, and many were
deleted by the time I saw them in a discography. It was never easy finding a
particular LP in the UK, unless you were prepared to order and wait a long
time. Apparently those DG Stockhausen LPs typically sold in the few
thousands not hundreds of thousands, and they were never all available
together (although a Stockhausen "catalogue" was often printed in the
booklets.) For me the hit and miss searching of new and second hand shops
has been replaced by the simplicity of eBay, and while the Verlag has yet to
raise its game by enabling direct online orders, at least they haven't
deleted anything at all.
>
Adam
> Interesting that you bring up Macero. He had a Varese score ["Time and
> Space" or something like that] that Johnny Reinhard got a copy of. Macero
> wasn't doing too well with it and Reinhard was, but Macero has apparently
> vetoed any non-Macero performance or recording. This may be old news
> though.
A good interview with TM from 10 years, where he talks of Varese, and studio
techniques;
http://www.furious.com/perfect/teomacero.html
And a few more references at the usual place;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teo_Macero
Needless to say, his splicing of live solos for the Live at the Blackhawk LP
releases of 1961 (!), tape-looping in Bitches Brew of 1968, and
tape/analogue sculpting of the 1971-1974 studio releases, were prescient,
or masterful.
Paul Dirmeikis
> >>he was most productive precisely when his popularity
> >>was (supposedly) in decline.
>
> Well, you may well have a point here - but that was a long time ago -
> it's been and gone. Perhaps a more pertinent issue is how history will
> judge him.
I think many side aspects have to be considered about this debatable
decrease of Stockhausen's popularity.
Let's remember that pop stars such as The Beatles, Greatful Dead, Can,
and Miles Davis frequently quoted Stockhausen as influencing their
music, and therefore brought Stockhausen to the knowledge and interest
of their fans.
Let's remember too that very few contemporary composers at that time
were dealing with electronics means, and this new sound aspect surely
attracted many of the young audience. As well as the "Eastern
thinking" which could be related to Stockhausen's music at that time,
and which was very popular.
Not mentionning that Stockhausen had his records released by the most
important and well distributed labels (DGG and Sony), and it also
helped a lot for his popularity.
Nowadays, what do we have ? Apart from Anthony Braxton (but he's not
really a youngtser), and Bj?rk who regularly quotes Stockhausen in her
interviews, who else among pop or rock or rap bands talks about
Stockhausen's influence ? Compared to the 60's and 70's, what is
musically proposed to the audience has been multiplied maybe by a
thousand or even more. Browse on the Internet, and you find thousands
of bands and composers who attract and therfore split the audience.
Using electronic music has now become totally ordinary, and lost most
of its "exotic" and thrilling aspect.
Eastern philosophy has been given up, if not completely out-of-date.
And buying Stockhausen's CDs is now much more difficult since one has
to order them through postal means, and moreover they are expensive. I
don't think many young people actually make this effort to go to the
post office, and buy an expensive CD while they can freely download
almost whatever they want on the Internet.
I think that all this, added to a complete social and cultural
transformation of the meaning of art music for the young people since
the 60's, can explain why one could think that Stockhausen is "less
popular" nowadays. But in my opinion, it has very little to do with
his music itself or his compositional directions.
Moreover, popularity is such a relative concept. Maybe Stockhausen
doesn't drain as many people as in Osaka, during the 1970 World Fair,
but each time I attended one of his concerts these last years, it was
Paul Dirmeikis
Just wanting to say I don't know why my last post appears three times
in the thread. I wasn't stuttering nor insistent... Sorry for this
Philip Glass aspect. Sorry for this Philip Glass aspect. Sorry for
this Philip Glass aspect...
Paul Dirmeikis
www.dirmeikis.org
Lora Crighton
> Hi,
> Just wanting to say I don't know why my last post appears three times
> in the thread. I wasn't stuttering nor insistent... Sorry for this
> Philip Glass aspect. Sorry for this Philip Glass aspect. Sorry for
> this Philip Glass aspect...
>
Googlegroups problems again. Consider using a real newsserver. Consider
using a real newsserver. Consider using a real newsserver. real
newsserver. real newsserver. real newsserver. ...
Adam
"No-one uses arpeggios quite like Philip Glass, or indeed for so long."
- Andrew Ford.
Thanks to Christopher for prompting an interesting area for discussion, as I
doubt we have concluded yet, or in fact helped him with an answer. Like,
- Is Stockhausen popular today, per se ?
There seems interest in his present work, and his pioneering early and mid
period electronics (as a cultural artifact of the electronic music field),
but as a composer? Perhaps he is now a formidable icon of the transition of
music or composition to its future as pure music-theater?
- Is popularity (record) CD sales ? Or concert attendance ?
KS's S-V publishing house seems to have harmed his distribution, as
mentioned above. While the great liner notes are there with the CDs, few of
us have probably heard his recent catalog, nor thus had time to study it.
On the other hand, Anthony Braxton has an enormous catalog of releases to
this very day, and is perhaps barely known by most, (his Montreux-Berlin
concerts of 1980 are fantastic).
- Was Miles least popular during his 'difficult' phase '68-'75, or was he at
his most interesting by virtue of Macero's productions and KS's influence.
Unlike Miles, KS and Braxton are very much their own producers. How this
impacts on Christopher's question I'm not sure. It almost seems Jacques
Attali warrants a mention soon.
Tommaso
> KS's S-V publishing house seems to have harmed his distribution, as
> mentioned above. While the great liner notes are there with the CDs, few of
> us have probably heard his recent catalog, nor thus had time to study it.
Indeed, but I would say that the liner notes are not as great as they
used to be. He points out that the prices vary according to length of
pieces, photos, booklets etc. But look at his recent releases: both
"Himmelfahrt" and "Freude" are shorter than 40 mins and would have
fitted one ONE cd, not two. Both have rather meagre booklets, and
there are no words about the compositional process in "Freude". Same
with "Natural Durations". But he still charges 23 Euros for a single
disc (46 Euros for "Durations"), which is ridiculously inflated. Also
think of his releasing the individual parts of "Sunday" separately,
not as a box set of the whole opera as would be expected, and making
unnecessary double-disc sets of "Engel-Prozessionen" and "Licht-
Bilder" in the process (each then costing double, of course). The
whole of "Mittwoch" is also available separately, without
"Michaelion". I'm sure once he gets to record it, I assume it will
come ONLY in a box-set "Mittwoch", and so everyone who has already
bought the individual releases of the rest of the opera will be forced
to buy the box-set to hear that work. Is that diminishing his sales?
In the long run, no. He will sell to fewer people than formerly (not
to speak of his DG period), but he will milk the remaining fans to the
utmost and thus get at least the same amount of money. There are
people who will buy anything he releases, even if it's the seventh
unnecessary excerpt or arrangement of anything from "Licht" or other
works (remember that hilarious 8-cd-set of the electronic music from
"Sirius"....)
Thomas
ludovicus
wrote:
To order Stockhausen Edition CDs in a simple stress-free manner,
simply tick the shopping cart on the Stockhausen Society's web-site.
The prices are the lowest possible, as this is a non-profit making
facility (an occasional loss is made). All prices have to be in GBP
but a 19 euro CD will cost £16.00 GBP
Paypal take a cut and charge for bank transfers and the posting euros
to Germany every 2-300 euros costs £5.98. Any profit simply helps to
send out articles and information to enquirers. Full detail on
www.stockhausensociety.org.
ludovicus
wrote:
>From Ivor Morgan
I am not going to reply to this in depth as I use the analogy of a
jigsaw puzzle to indicate that there are many pieces which need to be
fitted together before the a true picture can be appreciated. One of
these pieces is one of presence. People interact with people. A look
at concert lists will show that as an example, British composer Alan
Rawsthorne was featured on radio and in public concerts (I met him)
while he was alive. The same applied to Peter Racine Fricker (whom I
also met and stayed with) - a really good inspired composer whose
Third Symphony was part of a music A level course in England. There
are lots of examples - York Bowen, Elizabeth Lutyens, Humphrey
Searle...
When Stockhausen does appear in public he is mobbed...London last
year, Italy this year...and at a pre-concert talk for a (packed)
Festival Hall concert in London in 2002, people stood on each others
shoulders to catch a glimpse - the room was packed solid.
I feel that sometimes KS ought to take a gamble. Instead of waiting to
be asked to go somewhere, announce that he is coming. Hiriing the
Wigmore Hall in London would not break the bank, and there are enough
fans in England to make sure everyone knew. Someone may shoot me down
in flames...its just a suggestion....
Jerry Kohl
> he still charges 23 Euros for a single
> disc (46 Euros for "Durations"), which is ridiculously inflated.
Compared to what? DG or Naxos? Don't forget that they do pressings
typically in the 20,000 to 50,000-copy range and so adopt a "push"
strategy for sales, which involves large-scale marketing campaigns,
dozens of wholesalers, and thousands of retailers. The Stockhausen-
Verlag CDs use runs of just 1000 copies (cost-per-copy is
correspondingly high), and they are in no position to use such a
"push" strategy. A fairer comparison would be another small company
with a comparable scale-economy. I don't know of any that actually run
in the black, and I know of none at all that have as many titles in
print.
> Also
> think of his releasing the individual parts of "Sunday" separately,
> not as a box set of the whole opera as would be expected
Well, none of the other boxed sets were released before the premières
of the completed operas. We have had the scenes of Sunday released as
they have been composed and premièred individually, since 1998. As
there is no immediate prospect of a staging of the whole opera, I
think the individual-scene strategy works in the listeners' favour--
not to mention the opportunity to buy the scenes of far the longest
opera in the cycle singly over a long span of time, rather than having
to plunk down a couple of hundred Euros all at once.
>, and making
> unnecessary double-disc sets of "Engel-Prozessionen" and "Licht-
> Bilder" in the process (each then costing double, of course).
"Unnecessary" by your standards, perhaps, which I perceive as
economically motivated. Personally, I do not find the second disc of
Engel-Prozessionen unnecessary, though I might agree that a single-
disc edition of "Licht-Bilder" would be advantageous.
> The
> whole of "Mittwoch" is also available separately, without
> "Michaelion". I'm sure once he gets to record it, I assume it will
> come ONLY in a box-set "Mittwoch", and so everyone who has already
> bought the individual releases of the rest of the opera will be forced
> to buy the box-set to hear that work.
I doubt this very much given the track record of Freitag, which is
available in numerous configurations (though, it is true, to obtain
the complete electronic music *without* the tone scenes, it is
necessary to buy the 4-CD set of the opera).
> (remember that hilarious 8-cd-set of the electronic music from
> "Sirius"....)
Let me in on the joke--what is "hilarious" about this set? I haven't
heard it yet, nor I suspect have many others reading this group, so do
please fill us in.
--
Jerry Kohl
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Ratel
"Jerry Kohl"
Tommaso
> he still charges 23 Euros for a single
> disc (46 Euros for "Durations"), which is ridiculously inflated.
Compared to what? DG or Naxos? Don't forget that they do pressings
typically in the 20,000 to 50,000-copy range and so adopt a "push"
strategy for sales, which involves large-scale marketing campaigns,
dozens of wholesalers, and thousands of retailers. The Stockhausen-
Verlag CDs use runs of just 1000 copies (cost-per-copy is
correspondingly high), and they are in no position to use such a
"push" strategy. A fairer comparison would be another small company
with a comparable scale-economy. I don't know of any that actually run
in the black, and I know of none at all that have as many titles in
print.
---------
Why not compare with Wandelweiser / Timescraper / b-boim records?
(www.wandelweiser.de)
Their pressings must be minimal, and there is no push-strategy.
Price: 12 euro per CD.
Jerry Kohl
Interesting, but I can't tell a lot from their website. There is no
information on whether the CDs come with booklets, how large a press
run they do per CD (or, indeed, whether the CDs are pressed at all--so
many small firms these days do CD-Rs on-demand).
What I *can* see is that they have distributors in Japan, Canada,
France and Germany (as well as direct sales), and they represent at
least a dozen different composers, so from an administrative point of
view, they are a firm several times larger than the Stockhausen-
Verlag.
I can also see there is a lot of electronic music, solo instrumental
and small ensemble pieces. I suppose Stockhausen could save a lot of
money in performers-rights fees by not issuing orchestral or other
large-ensemble pieces, like Gruppen, Trans, or Momente. Does
Wandelweiser pay the normal royalties to composers and performers, or
do they ask musicians to waive their royalty rights, as many small
companies do (this was the case, for example, when Perspectives of New
Music was issuing CDs)?
Adam
> On Jul 23, 9:47 am, "Ratel" <s...@no.pl> wrote:
>> "Jerry Kohl"
>> Tommaso
>>
>> > he still charges 23 Euros for a single
>> > disc (46 Euros for "Durations"), which is ridiculously inflated.
>>
>> Compared to what? DG or Naxos? Don't forget that they do pressings
>> typically in the 20,000 to 50,000-copy range and so adopt a "push"
>> strategy for sales, which involves large-scale marketing campaigns,
>> dozens of wholesalers, and thousands of retailers. The Stockhausen-
>> Verlag CDs use runs of just 1000 copies (cost-per-copy is
>> correspondingly high), and they are in no position to use such a
>> "push" strategy. A fairer comparison would be another small company
>> with a comparable scale-economy. I don't know of any that actually run
>> in the black, and I know of none at all that have as many titles in
>> print.
The few S-V CDs I have are of the highest quality in my collection. The
booklets for Hymnen, Gesang etc (3), Microphony, Gruppen, etc are simply of
the highest quality of CD documentation. Kontakte is a little thin, but
Studie I & II are not.
The Nigel Curtis comment above seems interesting. Although it seems a
reworking or re-release of any days or sections of Licht are not
necessarily out of the question.
Contrast with the Miles complete Bitches Brew Sessions (6), some good
references to modes/scales, a very interesting edit/splice list, and many
outtakes that perhaps should have been left on the floor. And a new mix by
Wilder/Schwarz, for better or worse, from the definitive Macero mix.
I'm sure the contrast is apples with oranges. Quite different commercial
imperatives at work, between SV and Sony.
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> which is ridiculously inflated.
> Compared to what? DG or Naxos? Don't forget that they do pressings
> typically in the 20,000 to 50,000-copy range and so adopt a "push"
> strategy for sales, which involves large-scale marketing campaigns,
> dozens of wholesalers, and thousands of retailers. The Stockhausen-
> Verlag CDs use runs of just 1000 copies (cost-per-copy is
> correspondingly high), and they are in no position to use such a
> "push" strategy. A fairer comparison would be another small company
> with a comparable scale-economy. I don't know of any that actually
> run in the black, and I know of none at all that have as many titles
> in print.
The Scottish folk label Greentrax fits the model you're describing.
They've been going for about 25 years with no subsidies. But I doubt
whether Ian Green is paying himself much more than the salary of his
previous job as a policeman.
The other factor is broadcasts. I haven't heard a broadcast of a
Stockhausen piece for many years; "Stimmung" some time in the 90s
maybe? The newest piece I've heard broadcast is "Tierkreis", some
time around 1980. Since I can't afford Stockhausen Verlag CDs, and
live performances are very rare (I have been to only two in my life,
"Mantra" and "Kurzwellen"), that's it, I have no access to what he's
been writing for half of my lifetime. The web won't help since most
of the sounds Stockhausen has invented won't translate to mp3 in any
way that makes sense and higher quality would erase SV's CD market.
I presume the reason is that the demands of resources and rehearsal
time are so enormous even a broadcaster like the BBC can't justify
the expense, particularly when the project involves dealing with a
spaced-out prima donna who might nix the whole thing at any time.
With a composer like Sorabji, he may have made crazy *technical*
demands, but most of his music makes *economic* sense once somebody's
learned to play it, and being dead he's got easier to negotiate with.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Tommaso
> Verlag CDs use runs of just 1000 copies (cost-per-copy is
> correspondingly high), and they are in no position to use such a
> "push" strategy. A fairer comparison would be another small company
> with a comparable scale-economy. I don't know of any that actually run
> in the black, and I know of none at all that have as many titles in
> print.
I see your point, and I of course didn't have Naxos or DG in mind. The
already mentioned Wandelweiser is a better example, or think of a
label like HatHut. Even more 'uncommercial' music, with print runs of
about 2000 or 3000 copies (the latter apparently only with big names
like Feldman). I guess the same goes for most labels concerned with
'New Music'. And they invariably cost no more than 18 or 19 Euros,
often carrying booklets at least as informative as the ones that KS
provides, and mostly they are full-length cds, not just 38 min. or so
as with "Himmelfahrt" or "Freude".
> Well, none of the other boxed sets were released before the premières
> of the completed operas. We have had the scenes of Sunday released as
> they have been composed and premièred individually, since 1998. As
> there is no immediate prospect of a staging of the whole opera, I
> think the individual-scene strategy works in the listeners' favour--
> not to mention the opportunity to buy the scenes of far the longest
> opera in the cycle singly over a long span of time, rather than having
> to plunk down a couple of hundred Euros all at once.
It is true that the other boxed sets only came out after the stage
premieres, but I feel that the whole of the operas are always more
than the sum of their parts. Also, I'm not sure whether there will be
a difference between the individual pieces performed solo and as a
part of the opera (the changes from the original "Jahreslauf" to the
version in "Dienstag" comes to my mind, there apparently is also a
similar difference with the "Helikopter-Quartett", which I only know
from the arditti quartet edition release). So, in order to understand
what is going on I would clearly prefer to have "Sunday" and
"Mittwoch" as a complete edition, with Stockhausen explaining in the
booklet what is to happen in the staging exactly and the possible
significance of the action in the context. There are some hints about
this in the individual booklets to the individual parts, but as yet, I
didn't get the 'whole picture'.
> "Unnecessary" by your standards, perhaps, which I perceive as
> economically motivated. Personally, I do not find the second disc of
> Engel-Prozessionen unnecessary, though I might agree that a single-
> disc edition of "Licht-Bilder" would be advantageous.
It would have been great to have an option. There are people who want
to study each and every aspect of the works, and for those the
additional discs are fine. But the 'Pianissimo Tutti-Choir" of "Engel-
Prozessionen" is not a separate work or version to be performed in
concert, nor is the "Licht-Bilder" version without modulation. For
those wanting only to hear the actual work, in both cases the first cd
of these sets would be totally sufficient.
> I doubt this very much given the track record of Freitag, which is
> available in numerous configurations (though, it is true, to obtain
> the complete electronic music *without* the tone scenes, it is
> necessary to buy the 4-CD set of the opera).
Indeed, a good example, especially as the electronic music is indeed
to be performed separately, as "Weltraum".
>
> > (remember that hilarious 8-cd-set of the electronic music from
> > "Sirius"....)
>
> Let me in on the joke--what is "hilarious" about this set? I haven't
> heard it yet, nor I suspect have many others reading this group, so do
> please fill us in.
Firstly, the electronic music of "Sirius" was never intended to be a
separate work originally. If it is now, it is clearly an afterthought.
And for study purposes, it would have been enough to release one
version of that electronic music, not all four of them, as the only
difference is the order in which the sections of the "Wheel" are
played. And if the bridges between "the Wheel" and the third part are
different, it would have been possible to release them as 'extras'
after the whole work. As I said, only for study purposes. Putting it
out on eight discs altogether to me looks like an obvious attempt to
make as much money from those fans who buy everything he releases as
is possible. Sorry if that sounds like bad-mouthing Stockhausen, but
that's just how it appears to me. Like one of those ltd. collectors'
editions and different versions of the same single in the pop market.
Thomas
Jerry Kohl
> > The Stockhausen-
> > Verlag CDs use runs of just 1000 copies (cost-per-copy is
> > correspondingly high), and they are in no position to use such a
> > "push" strategy. A fairer comparison would be another small company
> > with a comparable scale-economy. I don't know of any that actually run
> > in the black, and I know of none at all that have as many titles in
> > print.
>
> I see your point, and I of course didn't have Naxos or DG in mind. The
> already mentioned Wandelweiser is a better example, or think of a
> label like HatHut. Even more 'uncommercial' music, with print runs of
> about 2000 or 3000 copies (the latter apparently only with big names
> like Feldman). I guess the same goes for most labels concerned with
> 'New Music'. And they invariably cost no more than 18 or 19 Euros,
> often carrying booklets at least as informative as the ones that KS
> provides, and mostly they are full-length cds, not just 38 min. or so
> as with "Himmelfahrt" or "Freude".
Things may have changed since the days when I managed the CD
productions for Perspectives of New Music, but the 1000/2000 break
made a *huge* difference in per-unit cost in those days--as much for
printing the booklet as for pressing the CDs themselves. If this is
still the case, the comparison of HatHut to Stockhausen's prices is
quite in line.
> > Well, none of the other boxed sets were released before the premières
> > of the completed operas.
[snip]
> It is true that the other boxed sets only came out after the stage
> premieres, but I feel that the whole of the operas are always more
> than the sum of their parts.
I wouldn't argue with you there, though at the same time I wouldn't
want to be misunderstood as saying the "modules" are somehow worth
less on their own. Every time I listen to Freitag, for example, I
regret not being able to hear so many long stretches of the electronic
music, which are covered by the real scenes.
> > "Unnecessary" by your standards, perhaps, which I perceive as
> > economically motivated. Personally, I do not find the second disc of
> > Engel-Prozessionen unnecessary, though I might agree that a single-
> > disc edition of "Licht-Bilder" would be advantageous.
>
> It would have been great to have an option. There are people who want
> to study each and every aspect of the works, and for those the
> additional discs are fine. But the 'Pianissimo Tutti-Choir" of "Engel-
> Prozessionen" is not a separate work
I would have to disagree with you there, despite Stockhausen's own
stated view. I listen to the Pianissimo Tutti Choir with as much
pleasure (up until recently, with more pleasure) than to the Engel-
Prozessionen as a whole. However, I do take your point.
> > > (remember that hilarious 8-cd-set of the electronic music from
> > > "Sirius"....)
>
> > Let me in on the joke--what is "hilarious" about this set? I haven't
> > heard it yet, nor I suspect have many others reading this group, so do
> > please fill us in.
>
> Firstly, the electronic music of "Sirius" was never intended to be a
> separate work originally.
Was it not? I'm not so sure about that, myself.
> If it is now, it is clearly an afterthought.
Afterthought or not, it now appears to be so considered by the
composer, for his catalog of works states "It is also possible to
perform the electronic music by itself in eight tracks", and the
Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter versions are given the separate
work numbers 1. ex 43, 2. ex 43, 3. ex 43, and 4. ex 43, respectively.
> And for study purposes, it would have been enough to release one
> version of that electronic music, not all four of them, as the only
> difference is the order in which the sections of the "Wheel" are
> played.
This is not quite the case . . .
> And if the bridges between "the Wheel" and the third part are
> different,
Just so. They are and must be different.
> it would have been possible to release them as 'extras'
> after the whole work. As I said, only for study purposes.
For musicological study purposes, perhaps, but performers wanting to
rehearse the work would find it a royal pain trying to splice all
those bits together, not to mention reconstructing the altered bridges
together.
> Putting it
> out on eight discs altogether to me looks like an obvious attempt to
> make as much money from those fans who buy everything he releases as
> is possible.
Hardly the case, since these "study sets" (other examples are the
separate choirs and separate orchestra groups from Hoch-Zeiten, the
electronic music to accompany Klavierstück XVI and Komet, and the
synthesizer part for rehearsing the Seven Songs of the Days from
Montag) sell in minute numbers compared to the other CDs, Stockhausen
actually takes a large loss on them, and would be money ahead never
releasing them at all. What people keep forgetting (and I suppose,
given the world we live in, it is understandable) is that the Complete
Edition is not first and foremost a commercial enterprise, but rather
a means of preserving and making available the sound materials of
Stockhausen's music. There is absolutely no reason in the world for
you to purchase any of these study CDs, should you be disinclined to
study or rehearse the music, but for those who do, I guarantee that
this is a heck of a lot more convenient (and in most cases orders of
magnitude cheaper) than getting a sound archive somewhere to make a
one-off dub for you. And have you ever tried to get DG or Phillips to
supply a one-off copy of something that is out of print in their
catalog?
Jerry Kohl
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> he still charges 23 Euros for a single disc (46 Euros for "Durations"),
> >> which is ridiculously inflated.
> > Compared to what? DG or Naxos? Don't forget that they do pressings
> > typically in the 20,000 to 50,000-copy range and so adopt a "push"
> > strategy for sales, which involves large-scale marketing campaigns,
> > dozens of wholesalers, and thousands of retailers. The Stockhausen-
> > Verlag CDs use runs of just 1000 copies (cost-per-copy is
> > correspondingly high), and they are in no position to use such a
> > "push" strategy. A fairer comparison would be another small company
> > with a comparable scale-economy. I don't know of any that actually
> > run in the black, and I know of none at all that have as many titles
> > in print.
>
> The Scottish folk label Greentrax fits the model you're describing.
> They've been going for about 25 years with no subsidies.
And press runs of only 1000 copies? I can't believe that *any* folk-
music label, no matter how small, can fail to move more units than
that in a year.
> But I doubt
> whether Ian Green is paying himself much more than the salary of his
> previous job as a policeman.
Which is approximately one policeman's salary more than anyone is paid
at the Stockhausen-Verlag for selling the Complete Edition CDs.
> The other factor is broadcasts. I haven't heard a broadcast of a
> Stockhausen piece for many years;
You're not listening to the right radio stations, then. I have heard
perhaps a dozen Stockhausen pieces in the last two years on BBC Radio
3 alone. Do you not get Radio 3 in Scotland? I don't listen to local
radio, but I'm told there is one station even here in the hinterlands
(Seattle) that regularly broadcasts new music (late at night, mind
you), including Stockhausen from time to time, though it is almost all
from commercially available CDs.
> "Stimmung" some time in the 90s
> maybe?
Last broadcast of that piece that I heard was on 20 August 2005 on
Radio 3, which was the 2005 City of London Festival performance at the
Gherkin Building, by Singcircle. Too bad that the Theatre of Voices
performed it on tour the same year, or the BBC might have recorded one
of those performances, as well.
> The newest piece I've heard broadcast is "Tierkreis", some
> time around 1980.
The most recent Tierkreis I have heard broadcast was the Seven Star
Signs version, on 27 January of this year (Radio 3 again). The only
other really recent pieces I can recall having heard on the radio in
the past two or three years are Litanei 97 and Klavierstück XVI, but
there have also been broadcasts of earlier pieces like Kontra-Punkte,
Zyklus, Gruppen, Carré, and others. By going back to the 1990s (which
is when you say you last heard any Stockhausen broadcast), I could
easily extend that list to at least several dozens, without having to
resort to including transmissions of commercial recordings.
> Since I can't afford Stockhausen Verlag CDs, and
> live performances are very rare (I have been to only two in my life,
> "Mantra" and "Kurzwellen"), that's it, I have no access to what he's
> been writing for half of my lifetime.
This isn't true, either. Quite apart from the Complete Edition, there
are at least 50 CDs currently in print and easily available to anyone
with web access and a credit card. Try the various Amazons
(.uk, .de, .fr), FNAC, etc.
> The web won't help since most
> of the sounds Stockhausen has invented won't translate to mp3 in any
> way that makes sense and higher quality would erase SV's CD market.
Why won't the web help? I'll admit that the sound quality of streaming
audio isn't the match of what you get from a proper CD, but even those
won't play back octophonic sound! Apart from Radio 3, there are a
number of stations on the continent that webcast, and occasionally
play Stockhausen's compositions.
> I presume the reason is that the demands of resources and rehearsal
> time are so enormous even a broadcaster like the BBC can't justify
> the expense, particularly when the project involves dealing with a
> spaced-out prima donna who might nix the whole thing at any time.
I think what I have just said shows what nonsense you are talking.
If you are really keen to hear Stockhausen's recent music (as opposed
to just wanting to gripe a lot and feel sorry for yourself) you ought
to save up your holiday money and go to the Stockhausen Courses next
year in Kürten, or at least attend some of the concerts there. There
was one fellow this year from the UK who put the last concert into his
vacation travel plans, just so he could hear Oktophonie in its proper
eight-channel version. For a ticket price of just 15 Euros, I'd say he
got a real bargain.
Lora Crighton
>> The newest piece I've heard broadcast is "Tierkreis", some
>> time around 1980.
>
> The most recent Tierkreis I have heard broadcast was the Seven Star
> Signs version, on 27 January of this year
I heard that - fascinating piece!
> (Radio 3 again).
My favourite station now that CBC has changed their schedule again. I'm
supposedly part of their target audience (at the upper end of the younger
demographic they want to attract), but they have taken away almost everything
that I liked, and I hardly ever listen to the radio anymore.
> There
> was one fellow this year from the UK who put the last concert into his
> vacation travel plans, just so he could hear Oktophonie in its proper
> eight-channel version. For a ticket price of just 15 Euros, I'd say he
> got a real bargain.
>
If I lived in the UK, I would certainly do that. There was even a concert that
included his music here in the spring. (I was sad to miss it, but it conflicted
with a class.)
--
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
Jerry Kohl
> Jerry Kohl wrote:
> >> The newest piece I've heard broadcast is "Tierkreis", some
> >> time around 1980.
>
> > The most recent Tierkreis I have heard broadcast was the Seven Star
> > Signs version, on 27 January of this year
>
> I heard that - fascinating piece!
>
> > (Radio 3 again).
>
> My favourite station now that CBC has changed their schedule again. I'm
> supposedly part of their target audience (at the upper end of the younger
> demographic they want to attract), but they have taken away almost everything
> that I liked, and I hardly ever listen to the radio anymore.
>
> > There
> > was one fellow this year from the UK who put the last concert into his
> > vacation travel plans, just so he could hear Oktophonie in its proper
> > eight-channel version. For a ticket price of just 15 Euros, I'd say he
> > got a real bargain.
>
> If I lived in the UK, I would certainly do that. There was even a concert that
> included his music here in the spring. (I was sad to miss it, but it conflicted
> with a class.)
Further to the discussion: after having mentioned the Theatre of
Voices (Paul Hillier, dir.) having toured with Stimmung, I now
discover that they have a recording of their new "Copenhagen" version
of that work pending, on the Harmonia Mundi label, due for release
next week:
<http://harmoniamundi.com/usa/artistes_fiche.php?artist_id=67>
<http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/karlheinz_stockhausen/
stimmung__theatre_of_voices___hillier_/>
Lora Crighton
>
> Further to the discussion: after having mentioned the Theatre of
> Voices (Paul Hillier, dir.) having toured with Stimmung, I now
> discover that they have a recording of their new "Copenhagen" version
> of that work pending, on the Harmonia Mundi label, due for release
> next week:
> <http://harmoniamundi.com/usa/artistes_fiche.php?artist_id=67>
>
<http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/karlheinz_stockhausen/stimmung__theatre_of_voices___hillier_/>
>
Thanks, Jerry. I love the old recording I have, and look forward to hearing the
new one!
BernardP
> Voices (Paul Hillier, dir.) having toured with Stimmung, I now
> discover that they have a recording of their new "Copenhagen" version
> of that work pending, on the Harmonia Mundi label, due for release
> next week:
> <http://harmoniamundi.com/usa/artistes_fiche.php?artist_id=67>
> <http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/karlheinz_stockhausen/
> stimmung__theatre_of_voices___hillier_/>
>
> --
> Jerry Kohl
> "Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
It also interests me because SACD can carry 5.1 sound as well as stereo for
ordinary CD players, and that Stimmung sound projection is usually done
multi channel when live. Now leaving aside the situation that I don't have
an SACD player and will have to initially listen to this one in stereo, I
wonder if a 5:1 mix is included on this SACD hybrid disc for Stimmung. There
are other Stockhausen pieces that I am aching to hear in surround sound (and
if recorded on DVD considerably more people would be able to access the
surround sound than only the small percentage who own an SACD player).
I would certainly trade off the lack of sub-bass spatial separation in a
dolby 5.1 mix to enjoy the rest of Stockhausen's composed surround sound as
the best solution for the time being. Its up to other labels than the
Stockhausen Verlag to forge ahead in this area I imagine.
Jerry Kohl
> he still charges 23 Euros for a single
> disc (46 Euros for "Durations"), which is ridiculously inflated.
All right, let's have some facts, then.
I've just been checking an assortment of sources, where I find about
80 CDs with Stockhausen's music, exclusive of the Stockhausen Complete
Edition. A few representative prices in Euros (for new CDs--naturally
anything is possible in the used-CD market):
The Harmonia Mundi "Aus den sieben Tagen" CD ranges from a mere 4.54
Euros to a whopping 62.80 (both prices found on Amazon.fr
The DG Gruppen (with Abbado) is 20.95 on Amazon.de and 23.63 on FNAC
The Hungariton Gruppen (with Eotvos) is 18.95 on Amazon.de, 20.09 on
Amazon.fr, and 21.50 on FNAC.
The Hyperion Stimmung (Singcircle) lists at 19.86 on Amazon.fr, 21.34
on FNAC, and 21.99 on Amazon.de.
The new Stimmung recording on Harmonia Mundi (Thetre of Voices), which
has not yet been released, is only listed on Amazon.de and Amazon.uk,
with the price on the former at 24.99 Euros, and the latter in
sterling at 13.99 (the equivalent of 20.87 Euros at today's Interbank
rate)
Truly the greatest bargain CD I have been able to find is the new
Schoenberg Ensemble recording on Etcetera of Gruppen (an SACD, to
boot), at a mere 5.23 from FNAC. There is just one catch: it is only
available as part of a 27-CD megaset, so the total comes to 148 Euros.
If you want to pay more, you can order this set from Amazon.de for
244.98. Amazon.fr and Amazon.uk do not offer it at present.
Now, the thing to remember here is that these prices do not include
shipping unless they are part of an order totalling over 50 Euros, and
you will take delivery in metropolitan France (for FNAC and
Amazon.fr), Germany (for Amazon.de), or the UK (for Amazon.uk).
Overseas shipping for a single CD can add about 10 to 15 Euros (from
Amazon.de, without express delivery, of course). Larger shipments are
much more reasonable (16.85 Euros to the US for that 27-disc Etcetera
set from FNAC, for example)
Now, tell me again about how "ridiculously inflated" the Stockhausen
Verlag prices are, remembering that they *include* shipping to
anywhere in the world. (Oh, yes, the price in Euros for most of the
single CDs is 19, not 23, which is the price in US dollars.)
BernardP
> Truly the greatest bargain CD I have been able to find is the new
> Schoenberg Ensemble recording on Etcetera of Gruppen (an SACD, to
> boot), at a mere 5.23 from FNAC. There is just one catch: it is only
> available as part of a 27-CD megaset, so the total comes to 148 Euros.
> If you want to pay more, you can order this set from Amazon.de for
> 244.98. Amazon.fr and Amazon.uk do not offer it at present.
>
http://www.diverdi.com/tienda/detalle.aspx?id=19231
Bargain at 99.06 Euros at this link (plus delivery)
ros...@yahoo.com
The Verlag is losing money on the discs
and have been reduced from a previous 1000 copies
each to, now, 300 for all new releases
(this, after the recent releases of the spoken work discs).
I love the electronic music from Sirius discs
and had wished for these recordings
ever since the release of the original DGG double LP
of the work. Apparently, it was a frequently request
from lovers of this work, so it was released.
The Schönberg set of 23 CDs and 3 DVDs -
the Stockhausen being the sole "Super Audio" disc included -
is quite wonderful in it's sheer variety coupled with fine
performances.
As for anything being a "waste" of money...it's all
in what you consider worthy of investment.
Composer supervised recordings - right down to it's presentation -
is a quality I cherish highly.
Rod
redcat_events
light analysis. Nothing really about KS's marginalization - that which
he has done himself and that which others have done to him. I will
agree, he's played, but so are other ego/myth/wizard driven nut-jobs
i.e. Scriabin.
aaron
On Jul 15, 9:43 pm, Adam <nos...@example.com> wrote:
> Christopher Culver wrote:
>
> ..
> Also, does anyone think that the parallels between Stockhausen
> and Miles Davis are remarkable? Both were at the height of
> popularity and drew their greatest crowds at the same time,
> before fading out of view for a long time.
> ..
>
> Being somewhat familiar with both MD and KS, I think the parallel
> is minimal. Popularity and innovation are uncommon bedfellows.
>
> MD pre mid-1970s put his name to many compositions not his own, and
> post-1970s sold out terribly. At all times riding on the creative
> juices of his sidemen and producers - none more so than Teo Macero
> who tape-spliced and mixed masterpieces. Teo Macero, the innovator.
>
> KS is arguably more popular, and more understood, now than ever.
> KS the innovator. His concerts around the UK of old or new material
> are always packed - and they have been for 20 years at least.
>
> > I'm looking for reputable article- or book-length publishing, not a
> > meagre pseudo-encyclopedia article that amounts to little more than a
> > chronology of his works.
jimj
"Georges Aperghis - Musique de Chambre." It is not a fair comparison,
though, because the same CD was available in the bins at fnac earlier
that year for around 19 Euros or so. It was also available thru
amazon.com earlier in 2006 for less than 19 Euros' USD equivalent. It
was available via amazon.uk for something higher than 19 Euros after
it was no longer available via amazon.com but before I paid US$54.24
(including shipping and handling).
I paid US$54.24 because there were no more copies available from
amazon, fnac or zigzag. One online biz had some availability and I
wanted this CD at any price. It was NOT a used CD.
I think the extremely high priced CDs we see through amazon and ebay
are usually used CDs no longer available factory wrapped, so they are
"out of print."
Now we no longer have Tower Records, so these problem of distribution
and supply are going off into unchartered territory, but what is
interesting about the Stockhausen Verlag is that it is one composer's
solution to certain issues which in hindsight may have been ahead of
his time. One thing you will not find when ordering scores and CDs
from the composer's self-publishing/self-distributing business is "out
of print," and I think that's what his main concern is.
Does anyone else sense a trend towards publishing companies of modern
composers' music going to online downloads of pdfs? This may be
premature, but I suspect we may be see free downloads, or very
inexpensive downloads, offered, so that the publishers avoid printing/
mailing costs and the music is available. Does any publishing company
make a profit on scores of contemporary music?
My all-tme most expensive score was F. Rzewski's Les Moutons du
Panurge, which was outrageous, since it was a half -page of single-
staff notes, but I don't generalize from that one score. Schott's
scores are in general very
reasonably priced, in my opinion. SVs are middle-to-higher price
range, but not the highest. When I buy sheet music I want it to be
the highest quality paper and binding, partly so that if need be I can
photocopy pages repeatedly, for page-turns, for re-arranging the
layout, etc. These copied pages quickly become useless, folding,
fading, crumpling, disintegrating. I'll be very unhappy if the only
way I can obtain scores is downloads of pdfs and photocopies.
jimj
Jerry Kohl
Just one problem. Quoting from that site: "En este momento, no
disponemos de existencias de este artículo. Por favor, introduzca su
dirección de correo electrónico si desea que le avisemos cuando vuelva
a estar en stock."
Actually, this is also a problem with FNAC. I suppose that, when such
an outrageous bargain is offered, thousands and thousands of copies
are snatched up and all stocks are depleted.
--
Jerry Kohl
sorabji...@lineone.net
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> With a composer like Sorabji, he may have made crazy *technical*
> demands, but most of his music makes *economic* sense once somebody's
> learned to play it, and being dead he's got easier to negotiate with.
Best,
Alistair
sorabji...@lineone.net
> Does anyone else sense a trend towards publishing companies of modern
> composers' music going to online downloads of pdfs? This may be
> premature, but I suspect we may be see free downloads, or very
> inexpensive downloads, offered, so that the publishers avoid printing/
> mailing costs and the music is available. Does any publishing company
> make a profit on scores of contemporary music?
>
> My all-tme most expensive score was F. Rzewski's Les Moutons du
> Panurge, which was outrageous, since it was a half -page of single-
> staff notes, but I don't generalize from that one score. Schott's
> scores are in general very
> reasonably priced, in my opinion. SVs are middle-to-higher price
> range, but not the highest. When I buy sheet music I want it to be
> the highest quality paper and binding, partly so that if need be I can
> photocopy pages repeatedly, for page-turns, for re-arranging the
> layout, etc. These copied pages quickly become useless, folding,
> fading, crumpling, disintegrating. I'll be very unhappy if the only
> way I can obtain scores is downloads of pdfs and photocopies.
>
> jimj
We don't yet have any intention of supplying scores other than in
paper format and, although we have to do this in the form of ring-
bound photocopies within card covers (which is not what we'd like to
do ideally, but we are constrained by cost considerations), we have
not raised any of our prices in many years (despite increases in
production and distribution costs) apart from the cheapest scores that
we supply (our minimum, inclusive of shipping within UK, is £6).
I know that this is not about Stockhausen, but...
Best,
Alistair
Paul Dirmeikis
> Actually, this is also a problem with FNAC. I suppose that, when such
> an outrageous bargain is offered, thousands and thousands of copies
> are snatched up and all stocks are depleted.
>
> --
> Jerry Kohl
Hi Jerry,
The FNAC is, IMO, the worst French book-CD-DVD website I experienced.
If you can avoid it, do it. Higher prices than everywhere else, and
usually a smaller choice.
About 10-15 years ago, it used to be the place where I purchased the
most of my CDs and books (in their shops in Paris, Marseille or
Rennes), but today they have completely different orientations than
offering rare CDs and books to the customers. In all their shops I
visited recently, the classical music area (as well as the jazz one)
has been reduced in surface to about one third of what it was before,
and you can only find the most recent and commonplace highlight
releases, as in any supermarket. Their sellers know nothing when
asked : they became soap sellers...
Different subject (maybe more suitable to another thread currently
active) : what about the 2007 Kuerten Courses ? I suppose we are many
to wait about your general impressions concerning the performances,
the new performers and new works you've heard.
I hope you'll have time to share your impressions.
Best regards
Paul
Jerry Kohl
> On 4 ao?t, 06:08, Jerry Kohl <jeromek...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Actually, this is also a problem with FNAC. I suppose that, when such
> > an outrageous bargain is offered, thousands and thousands of copies
> > are snatched up and all stocks are depleted.
>
>
> If you can avoid it, do it. Higher prices than everywhere else, and
> usually a smaller choice.
>, as in any supermarket. Their sellers know nothing when
> asked : they became soap sellers...
Yes, it is a big, faceless, commercial operation, but I have found
them useful on occasion. As long as you don't expect knowledgable,
friendly assistance, they serve their purpose, and in my case they
have been quick and efficient, even if only to notify me they cannot
supply something that is listed in their online catalogue (such as the
27-disk set under discussion here). Please feel free to share your
recommendations for online CD/DVD shopping sources (especially any
that specialize in contemporary music). I'm sure there are others
besides myself on this group who would be interested.
> Different subject (maybe more suitable to another thread currently
> active) : what about the 2007 Kuerten Courses ?
Yes, I think this needs to go on a different thread, but I did attend
the Courses this year once again and (as ever) I have lots of opinions
and impressions.
--
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
ludovicus
> "Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
>From Ludovicus
If all this energy was expended on doing something creative, perhaps
we would have more performances. I normally do not have time either to
read or contribute to such trivia (I have hust emailed a description
of the contents of the Sirius Score box to a potentiall purchaser who
doesn't mind spending £98 GBP) .....
......and I cannot even think of an appropriate word to describe such
discussions e.g S-V discs are expensive @16 euros for 38 of them
(rubbish) and weird and wonderful sources for discs that the 'ordinary
music lover' i.e a representative of the 99.999% of music lovers who
go to concerts and buy CDs because they enjoy the music but only want
what they believe are authentic performances [Stravinsky was
apparently too ill to conduct the 'Stravinsky conducts Stravinsky
series and merely sat in the auditorium while Craft conducted ...but
it helped to sell the records].
Why don't you write to performers (who can sometimes have a say in the
choice of a work or two on a compilation album) and using all the
expertise(sic) shown on this site, tell 'em what a good and
interesting work Thinki is....or....or....! Remember the proverb of
the sower and the seed.
As a labour of love, I have sent 19,000 euros of orders to the Verlag
and have many emails thanking me for the facility of a simple 'click'
to purchase CDs and customers have included Michael Tilson Thomas and
Steve Reich's agent.
One point I would make and that is that there were two slightly
different performances of Angel Processions and within two days the
society had a CD of both sent by a fan. I have not compared these yet
(time) but was told by the sender that there are differences. I fully
expected these two performances to be on the S-V disc, if so.
Strange to say, I have not received an order from any of the 'price-
and-hassle' - complainers.
Shout to the world about the music rather than rattle away like a
group who've bumped into each other hours before a concert and simpy
gripe. There are exceptions to this description and they know who they
are and do make positive contributions on a wider basis.
One member who shall be nameless, has suggest a reference change to
the title of the 'opera' cycle to 'Licked'. some of the greatest music
written is destined never to be performed.
Ludovicus
Ludovicus
Christopher Culver
the thread I worked my way from Hong Kong to Russia though an
agonizing series of local trains, I've read what everyone else has
written. Some of the perspectives are interesting, especially the fact
that the fall in popularity of Eastern spirituality has had negative
consequences for Stockhausen. Less helpful, I feel, are those who seek
to act like there's no problem at all with the man himself,
essentially blaming people for not getting Stockhausen's work or for
not willing to pay enough.
One question that remains for me is what caused the demise of the
Stockhausen Ensemble in the early 1970s. Various sources claim there
were bitter arguments, but they are never specific about what the
point of contention. Surely it must have been a fairly amicable split,
as I know Peter Eotvos at least is still a close friend of
Stockhausen.
As for Stockhausen-Verlag orders, going through yet another site
instead of those I'm already accustomed with (essentially just Amazon)
is a hassle. That's why, Ludovicus, I've not sent you an order. So far
I've just bought SV discs from that big record shop on
Friedrichstrasse in Berlin, where I can slowly browse them and get
stuff from other composers at the same time. I imagine I'll continue
doing that.
Adam
Some interesting thoughts an observations on this thread,
you are right.
I think its dangerous ground to speculate about perceived
personal problems with artists, as where would one start or
stop ? Some artists or composers are more collaborative,
some more domineering or imperious, and others less so.
Your original subject line included ' .. in public eyes'.
So perhaps you could clarify decline in what sense ?
Given the recent passing of Antonioni and Bergman, it has been
interesting to see how they are now viewed, by the media and
public, post mortem. It seems to get down to achievements,
and life and times. Rarely a well rounded and informative
appraisal, as Maconie has done recently with Other Planets.
I'm very interested in hearing more about the Stockhausen
Courses of Kurten 2007, in the thread above.
marika
"ludovicus" <eo004...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1186305465....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
One member who shall be nameless, has suggest a reference change to
the title of the 'opera' cycle to 'Licked'.
why
not why licked, why nameless
mk5000
"Each began to ramble on in various sentences that pretty much said the same
thing, things like, "Well, look at that. He's sorry." "And Jackie
forgave him."--biz of knowledge blog
ludovicus
wrote:
Ludovicus replies:
Pity its only in Berlin. Lucky you! The customer we cater for does not
live near a record shop which can be bothered to order KS discs and
when this rarely happens the price is doubled. Rather than browse
aimlessly and time-consumingly, fans know which CD they want and are
happy to buy at the cheapest price at the click of a mouse. I would
have thought travelling across Berlin to be a greater hassle than
clicking on a new site. But it takes all sorts.....
ludovicus
> "ludovicus" <eo004a3...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
Ludovicus
Why nameless? There is a concept called 'confidentiallity' although
this is no longer possible on google discussions. Thankfully, it is
accepted in Kurten that when I pass on criticism or questions from
society members, it is as an intermediary messenger coming via me and
not from me.
Licht has been around since Thursday at La Scala (I've got Act 1 most
of Act 3 of the broadcast, but Michaels Journey has been lost: can
anyone help?). Neither Sunday or Wednesday has been performed as an
entity and apart from Donnerstag, there have been no 'revivals'. Work
it out for yourself. What the ear doesn't hear the mind doesn't grieve
over, but I feel that musical lives would be greatly enriched if
'exposed' to the greatness of most of the music. Added to my previous
list of Licht favourites is Dufte Zeichen and Lusifers Zorn.
I read an article recently, which seems difficult to disagree with,
which claimed that successful opera needs to be based on a story which
an audience can 'follow' and which has a resolution. Birtwistles Punch
and Judy, Gawain and Orpheus, Goehr's Behold the Sun, Max Davie's
Taverner, Schoebergs Moses und Aron and so on, all 'avant-garde',
nevertheless are based on the titles.
Stockhausen has taken a different approach. Only time will tell if
this is successful.. and affordable.
marika
>
> Ludovicus
>
> Why nameless?
>There is a concept called 'confidentiallity' although
> this is no longer possible on google discussions. Thankfully, it is
> accepted in Kurten that when I pass on criticism or questions from
> society members, it is as an intermediary messenger coming via me and
> not from me.
O, thanks for the explanation
>
> Licht has been around since Thursday at La Scala (I've got Act 1 most
> of Act 3 of the broadcast, but Michaels Journey has been lost: can
> anyone help?). Neither Sunday or Wednesday has been performed as an
> entity and apart from Donnerstag, there have been no 'revivals'. Work
> it out for yourself. What the ear doesn't hear the mind doesn't grieve
> over, but I feel that musical lives would be greatly enriched if
> 'exposed' to the greatness of most of the music. Added to my previous
> list of Licht favourites is Dufte Zeichen and Lusifers Zorn.
>
> I read an article recently, which seems difficult to disagree with,
> which claimed that successful opera needs to be based on a story which
> an audience can 'follow' and which has a resolution. Birtwistles Punch
> and Judy, Gawain and Orpheus, Goehr's Behold the Sun, Max Davie's
> Taverner, Schoebergs Moses und Aron and so on, all 'avant-garde',
> nevertheless are based on the titles.
>
> Stockhausen has taken a different approach. Only time will tell if
> this is successful.. and affordable.
>
I am coming and only a conefish can stop me
http://www.usq.edu.au/users/weppner/dangerous/cone_shellfish.htm
or of course lack of time or the cost of the ticket
You can see the effect of non or diffuse story shows in the movie industry
and theaters as well. It is rare that movies and theater plays where
there's nothing to follow are succesful. But lack of it doesn't bother me.
I love it no matter what.
mk5000
"I don't know why "Sing with Seeger" isn't in the discographies. It's
not that rare -- shows up for sale on eBay several times a year. But
Dunaway missed it in his book about Pete, and I suspect that everybody
since has used his list as the definitive source."--
John Ross
ros...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> Less helpful, I feel, are those who seek
> to act like there's no problem at all with the man himself,
> essentially blaming people for not getting Stockhausen's work or for
> not willing to pay enough.
Strange attitude methinks...
Are you saying that because others who
don't share your dislike or distrust
or just general "dis"ness of the man
are just not as enlightened as you are about him?
Maybe some of us just simply don't
see some kind of major "problem" with him
and that we can't relate to your attitude of seeking
for some sort of negative characterization of the man.
It may be possible that some of us have no problem with him at all.
I have to say that again this year he was his usual funny and generous
self.
If you already begin with a negative attitude,
then you are surely going to find something to be unhappy with.