PROMISE KEEPERS
Layne Petersen
Ed Rock wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Shawn a. Kercher wrote:
>
>> DID ANYBODY GO TO THE PROMISE KEEPERS THIS WEEKEND IN DENVER COLORADO >OR
>> CHARLLOTEE??
>
>Yeah, but I didn't. ;-) A friend did though. Does that count?
Yeah. My roommate and one of my friends went to the one in Denver. So, I
think it counts for something, Ed. I went last year, and was, to say the
least, underimpressed.
===========================================================
Peace, hope, love, Jesus Christ - Layner
===========================================================
Everything's gonna be okay. He's gonna wipe those fears away. And
before the night is through, this is all going to make sense to you.
- poor old lu
===========================================================
Not Ashamed!
Layne Petersen (Layne_P...@Ministrynet.usa.net) wrote:
: I went last year, and was, to say the least, underimpressed.
Interesting. I myself was quite impressed.
Sure, there were a lot of things I would do differently -- mainly I would
put a "buster" edge on what is essentially a "boomer" event.
However, I was impressed with the co-ordination of the event, the
effective use of time and technology, and the almost complete lack of
sports analogies (the overuse of sports analogies was the one thing I was
dreading most).
Most of all, I was impressed with the impact on the guys (mostly
fathers of kids in the youth group) who I took. One became a Christian,
others who never sing actually enjoyed praising God in song, and there are
several wives talking about the changes in their husbands and sons talking
about the changes in their dads.
I have no torch to bear for Promise Keepers, but I have a torch to carry
for Christ -- and they Holy Spirit was definitely working that weekend.
I'm sure some of that was despite the organizers, but I believe much of it
was in concert with their actions.
--
"If God wanted you to be happy every day,
He would have made you a game show host." -- Heathers
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Not Ashamed! (chee...@netaxs.com) wrote:
: Most of all, I was impressed with the impact on the guys (mostly
: others who never sing actually enjoyed praising God in song, and there are
: several wives talking about the changes in their husbands and sons talking
: about the changes in their dads.
Not all changes I've observed are positive. The emphasis on "leadership"
has *got* to go, at least in a segregated setting such as a PK rally.
: I have no torch to bear for Promise Keepers, but I have a torch to carry
: for Christ -- and they Holy Spirit was definitely working that weekend.
: I'm sure some of that was despite the organizers, but I believe much of it
: was in concert with their actions.
I dunno. One speaker at the Seattle PK event last April said that we
have to be sure we're worshiping God and not worshiping our worshiping,
but I got the distinct impression that a lot of people were doing the
latter regardless (an impression not helped when the stadium did a few
rounds of "the wave" and the guy at the mic said that "God is moving here
tonight" -- the same God, presumably, who referees football games).
I was also both amused and distressed by the way all the speaking
happened under the banner "BREAK DOWN THE WALLS" and one speaker went so
far as to say that we needed to break down the walls "between Jew and
Gentile, white and black, male and female ... " Well what the hell is PK
*erecting* those male/female walls for then? (Well, there *was* a
handful of women operating the cash registers in the merchandise booth.
Wouldn't want men to do any of the menial labour, after all. Maybe next
they can wash the menfolk's feet.)
What surprised me was that it was such a *normal* evangelical event,
apart from scattered references to maleness and stuff like that. But the
process -- the worship, the speaking, and so forth -- was so typical,
like a no-name Billy Graham crusade, that it just rammed home the fact
that the only thing separating this event from any other was that Girls
Aren't Allowed.
(Oh yeah, and while I think it's cool to have boxes of free New
Testaments, must God's Word be cluttered with all these testimonials from
athletes, athletes, athletes, athletes? Like I give a crap what some
overpaid musclebound jock has to say about spirituality. Well, okay, I
*do* give a crap, but hey, let's break down some walls and get a few
artists, lawyers, accountants, musicians, activists, cashiers, even a
homeless person or two and show some variety. We're supposed to be *in*
the world, but not *of* it; by playing the "heroes" game, PK is, like so
much of CCM culture, very much *of* the world but not *in* it.)
--
Peter T. Chattaway | "Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves,
Culture Editor, | aye, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that
The Ubyssey | we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with
pet...@unixg.ubc.ca | trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously
------------------- | not to sin at all." -------------------- Martin Luther --
jes
fact that I like to experience something before forming opinions but I'm
not allowed to attend on bases of gender. Which kinda bothers me. :|
beverley
I have to admit, that's one side of corporate Christianity that always
bugged the living daylights out of me -- the tight intermingling of
sports and witnessing. Maybe it's that I'm allergic to sports? I don't
know, but there's something to that that makes me wanna just go crawl
under a table and put my arms over my head.
I'm a klutz.
--
Take to chance to advance. You might hallucinate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://www.hallucinet.com/wednesday -=- http://www.tezcat.com/~wednsday
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Bev White -=- wedn...@tezcat.com
beverley
>(Oh yeah, and while I think it's cool to have boxes of free New
>Testaments, must God's Word be cluttered with all these testimonials from
>athletes, athletes, athletes, athletes? Like I give a crap what some
>overpaid musclebound jock has to say about spirituality. Well, okay, I
>*do* give a crap, but hey, let's break down some walls and get a few
>artists, lawyers, accountants, musicians, activists, cashiers, even a
>homeless person or two and show some variety. We're supposed to be *in*
>the world, but not *of* it; by playing the "heroes" game, PK is, like so
>much of CCM culture, very much *of* the world but not *in* it.)
I volunteer.
"Semi-employed perverted graphic artists for Christ."
Um.
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: I volunteer.
: "Semi-employed perverted graphic artists for Christ."
: Um.
[ LOL! ] Ah, the heartiest laugh I've had since I saw _Antonia's Line_ a
couple hours ago ... or _Trainspotting_ this morning ...
Of course, Bev, you're not a man, so they wouldn't want you in their
bibles. Unless by "perverted" you mean "transgendered" -- that *might*
qualify. ;)
Not Ashamed!
: I have to admit, that's one side of corporate Christianity that always
: bugged the living daylights out of me -- the tight intermingling of
: sports and witnessing.
Yeah, me too. As I said, at the rally I attended, it wasn't too bad.
But they did give out these New Testaments to everybody, and they were
really obnoxious -- filled with testimony pages from nothing but athletes.
I've written a letter saying, "What about the scientists, the artists, the
academicians, the office workers, the garbage collectors, and everybody
else?"
Dave Draeger
>Peter Thomas Chattaway <pet...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>(Oh yeah, and while I think it's cool to have boxes of free New
>>Testaments, must God's Word be cluttered with all these testimonials from
>>athletes, athletes, athletes, athletes? Like I give a crap what some
>>overpaid musclebound jock has to say about spirituality. Well, okay, I
>>*do* give a crap, but hey, let's break down some walls and get a few
>>artists, lawyers, accountants, musicians, activists, cashiers, even a
>>homeless person or two and show some variety. We're supposed to be *in*
>>the world, but not *of* it; by playing the "heroes" game, PK is, like so
>>much of CCM culture, very much *of* the world but not *in* it.)
>
>
>"Semi-employed perverted graphic artists for Christ."
>
>Um.
Works for me. Beats more of the "So I was standing there at the plate,
bases loaded, bottom of the ninth, down by 3 runs, full count, thinking
'Would Jesus be looking for a fastball here?'"
One of my big problems with PK was that I wasn't gonna pay 60 bucks to hear a
football coach tell me how "real life" is. If _anybody's_ got a skewed view
of "real life", it's a football coach, where you spend all week looking
at films, tote monstrous "playbooks" and quite literally _can_ "win them all".
The only sports folks worth hearing are baseball people, where a _great_
team still loses 1/3 of its games. When you lose, you blow it off and
go back out there the next day.
I'd much rather hear Bev spin her tales of Union Station restroom graffiti,
churches with food courts and wedding night footwashing.
Then again, if she could work in something about power tools... ;-)
--
Dave Draeger dra...@groucho.network.com 612/424-1665 or 800/328-9108 x1665
Network Systems Corp. 7600 Boone Ave. N. Brooklyn Park, MN 55428
Opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of NSC or StorageTek
Opinions expressed above, with a quarter, will get you a cup of coffee.
Not Ashamed!
: I'd much rather hear Bev spin her tales of Union Station restroom graffiti,
: churches with food courts and wedding night footwashing.
: Then again, if she could work in something about power tools... ;-)
Duct tape!
Duct tape!
We need more stories about duct tape.
beverley
>: I volunteer.
>: "Semi-employed perverted graphic artists for Christ."
>: Um.
>
>couple hours ago ... or _Trainspotting_ this morning ...
Why, thank you, I think. :)
>Of course, Bev, you're not a man, so they wouldn't want you in their
>bibles. Unless by "perverted" you mean "transgendered" -- that *might*
>qualify. ;)
Would it count if I did my Puggsley drag?
-- bev, who made the mistake of getting hot and bothered over willow creek's
video toaster, and apparently got the concerned evangelical look.
beverley
>I'd much rather hear Bev spin her tales of Union Station restroom graffiti,
>churches with food courts and wedding night footwashing.
*blush*
>Then again, if she could work in something about power tools... ;-)
So the Hitachi -- um, wait....
Susan E Stone
: I have to admit, that's one side of corporate Christianity that always
: bugged the living daylights out of me -- the tight intermingling of
: sports and witnessing. Maybe it's that I'm allergic to sports? I don't
: know, but there's something to that that makes me wanna just go crawl
: under a table and put my arms over my head.
Though I'm also a klutz, I absolutely passionately love sports, most
especially college football and basketball. That being said, I agree
with most of what you say. I'm glad there seem to be quite a few
Christian athletes, because I *do* think God has placed them in a
position to be role models and witnesses to their teammates and fans,
especially kids. But sometimes I think the church gives too much hero
worship to Christian athletes. And I'm not sure what to think when a
football player kneels in the end zone after making a TD. Do they think
God likes their team better or something? I suppose it's possible that
God cares about the outcome of a sporting event, if one team is really
corrupt or if winning or losing would have an impact on some player
becoming a Christian, but other than that....
I must admit I sometimes have a hard time not praying at certain points
when watching sporting events. Like when it's two outs in the bottom of
the ninth, with the score tied, the bases loaded, and a full count, and
it seems it's taking the pitcher forever to throw the ball. Or when my
beloved Auburn Tigers are up by four with little time on the clock, but
Alabama has first and ten on the Auburn 20. But I know in the two
specific football games where I felt like it was okay to pray, because
the favored team was one that I thought was the most corrupt in the
sport, and the underdogs were supposedly class acts, in one case with a
Christian coach and another with a Christian QB, the teams I prayed for
won, but it was shortly thereafter revealed that those teams were pretty
corrupt, too.
Anyway, to look at it from another angle, I'm glad there are so many
Christian athletes, but I'd really like to see that same Christian
influence in other areas of popular and/or high culture. There are
certain directors, actors, and authors I've been praying for for years,
because I'd love to see their talents specifically used to God's glory.
--Susan ("God must be a Tiger, too, 'cause the sun is orange and the sky
is blue."--a bumper sticker I used to have back when I lived in Alabama)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Susan E. Stone * "Do not let great ambitions
Penn Biology Dept. Academic Office * overshadow small successes."
sst...@sas.upenn.edu * --Fortune Cookie
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~sstone/ *
BSey
>
> And I'm not sure what to think when a football player kneels in the
> end zone after making a TD. Do they think God likes their team better
> or something?
Didn't you know that God is a Crimson Tide Fan? 8-)
> Or when my beloved Auburn Tigers are up by four with little time on
> the clock, but Alabama has first and ten on the Auburn 20.
TOUCHDOWN!
> --Susan ("God must be a Tiger, too, 'cause the sun is orange and the
> sky is blue."--a bumper sticker I used to have back when I
> lived in Alabama)
There's a variant of this in Austin that says "God Must Be a Longhorn -
He made the Sunsets Burnt Orange". I don't doubt that there's yet
another variant floating around the Knoxville area. 8-)
ACK! Now I'm gonna be counting the days til the end of August and the
start of the college football season.
Another Ex-Bama Refugee who would've rather seen Texas join the SEC.
BSey
John Swick P040
Dave Draeger <dra...@groucho.network.com> wrote:
>One of my big problems with PK was that I wasn't gonna pay 60 bucks to hear a
>football coach tell me how "real life" is. If _anybody's_ got a skewed view
>of "real life", it's a football coach, where you spend all week looking
>at films, tote monstrous "playbooks" and quite literally _can_ "win them all".
>The only sports folks worth hearing are baseball people, where a _great_
>team still loses 1/3 of its games. When you lose, you blow it off and
>go back out there the next day.
I had a hard time deciding which speaker I liked best at PK, but in
the end I had to go with Coach Bill McCartney. There were many great
speakers, but I've always loved the way football coaches have with
words. They have this indescribable way of showing an absolute
passion and conviction for what they are saying, of getting inside
your head and pulling the right strings to get you on board with their
vision. They can often be the most real people in the world, because
they're sending you out into very real situations, with very real
consequences if you don't have your head screwed on straight. Anyway,
to hear the gospel expounded upon in such a way was a thrill for me.
To know scripture is one thing, but to be able to bring it to the
level of real-life application that McCartney does is a special gift.
He didn't use cheesy sports analogies or lame emotional pleas. In
fact, I felt that he had quite a gift for speaking with authority
about the realities of life, scripture, and our relationships with God
and fellow man. It's nice that you were able to come to the exact
opposite conclusion without even listening to him.
---J. J.
--
**********************************************************************
As the boat began to rock, all the sin was washed away, 100 years
of real hard work, Noah sat down and had a Coffee. - Mortification
**********************************************************************
Jason and Heather
>
> [...] I'm not sure what to think when a football player kneels in
> team better or something?
Yeah, did you ever notice that sports personalities always thank God
when they win games, and blame themselves when they lose? It's a sweet
deal for God, but then, being God, he probably set it up that way.
Reminds me of the "thanks for your prayer" posts I see here from
time to time. Praise God, so-and-so got better, so-and-so found a
job. Where is the joyful praise when God gets a person sick in the
first place? When they die from their illness? When someone gets
fired? No, then we blame the doctors, or the economy, or some
mindless virus. If God gets credit for the good things caused by
skilled doctors, long hours of practice on the playing field, or
an excellent resume, shouldn't he also be called to account for the
bad things that happen?
jason "I would have made that TD, but God made me FUMBLE!" steiner
--
"The man who marries a modern woman marries a woman who expects to vote
like a man, smoke like a man, have her hair cut like a man, and go without
restrictions and without chaperons and obey nobody."
BOBBED HAIR - John R. Rice, 1941 http://www.primenet.com/~steiners/
Ed Rock
> Ed Rock wrote:
> >On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Shawn a. Kercher wrote:
> >
> >> DID ANYBODY GO TO THE PROMISE KEEPERS THIS WEEKEND IN DENVER COLORADO >OR
> >> CHARLLOTEE??
> >
> >Yeah, but I didn't. ;-) A friend did though. Does that count?
>
> Yeah. My roommate and one of my friends went to the one in Denver. So, I
> least, underimpressed.
Did y'all sit naked in a tent, smoking cigars, and crying as someone read
a Christian version of _Fire In The Belly_ aloud?
Ed Rock Ed Rocks the Web http://ias.ga.unc.edu Ed Crabtree
"I respect a lot of people I can't stand." --Bev White
MOORMC: We're not UNIX
Ed Rock
> Layne Petersen (Layne_P...@Ministrynet.usa.net) wrote:
> : I went last year, and was, to say the least, underimpressed.
>
> Interesting. I myself was quite impressed.
> Sure, there were a lot of things I would do differently -- mainly I would
> put a "buster" edge on what is essentially a "boomer" event.
Isn't everything. The late great Kevin Gilbert said (and I may slaughter
this but you'll get the idea):
The Baby Boomers had it all and wasted everything
Now recess is almost over and they won't get off the swing
> However, I was impressed with the co-ordination of the event, the
> effective use of time and technology, and the almost complete lack of
> sports analogies (the overuse of sports analogies was the one thing I was
> dreading most).
>
> Most of all, I was impressed with the impact on the guys (mostly
> fathers of kids in the youth group) who I took.
Anything, ever, about SINGLE men. THere are a few of dadgummit.
Everything is married this, family that... Bittah?
Scott W. Allen
>bugged the living daylights out of me -- the tight intermingling of
>sports and witnessing. Maybe it's that I'm allergic to sports? I don't
>know, but there's something to that that makes me wanna just go crawl
>under a table and put my arms over my head.
>
I'm with you on this, Bev. Including the klutz thing. Although
yes, commercial Christianity has a lot to do with it, they also
do what "works". What attracts attention. And, unfortunately,
athletics seems to be the largest "drawing card" for, well, men.
Not me, but a lot of men.
Nothing wrong with athletes, but if they are the only "faith
superheroes" *shudder* we have, there's something seriously
wrong.
Scott Allen
sal...@deis.sc.edu
Will McDonald
and Heather) writes:
>
>Susan E Stone <sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> [...] I'm not sure what to think when a football player kneels in
>> the end zone after making a TD. Do they think God likes their
>> team better or something?
>
>Yeah, did you ever notice that sports personalities always thank God
>when they win games, and blame themselves when they lose? It's a sweet
>deal for God, but then, being God, he probably set it up that way.
>
>Reminds me of the "thanks for your prayer" posts I see here from
>time to time. Praise God, so-and-so got better, so-and-so found a
>job. Where is the joyful praise when God gets a person sick in the
>first place? When they die from their illness? When someone gets
>fired? No, then we blame the doctors, or the economy, or some
>mindless virus. If God gets credit for the good things caused by
>skilled doctors, long hours of practice on the playing field, or
>an excellent resume, shouldn't he also be called to account for the
>bad things that happen?
Yes. I hold God accountable for both the "good" and the "bad" --
although, I have exceedingly poor comprehension of what is "good" and
"bad" as it relates to the eternal perspective.
Check out the book of Job. Too bad popular Christianity neglects that
book...
Will
--
pain is sharper when i suspect
that true love runs looking for us
like a lion in our dreams
-- Sam Phillips
beverley
>Did y'all sit naked in a tent, smoking cigars, and crying as someone read
>a Christian version of _Fire In The Belly_ aloud?
I mean, sure, you guys get pseudo-shamanistic pap, but you get better
pseudo-shamanistic pap than we do.
--
[insert some line about being america's freak, yeah.] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Steve White
>Anything, ever, about SINGLE men. THere are a few of dadgummit.
>Everything is married this, family that... Bittah?
got to go to a special youth session, while the conference speakers spoke
exclusively on how to treat your wife and how to treat your kids. Needless to
say, that morning was not the part that impacteed me the most. There was
nothing for those of us who have slowly passed from the youth stage without
becoming married. It's like they prepared for two groups - Fathers & Sons.
Those in between were left out. Other than that, there were things I could
learn, with the theme of Breaking Down Walls.
BTW, I also noticed that all the bios in the Bible were athletes. It's like
in Church we have special music, but never special clay modelling, special
country line dancing for the Lord, or special poetry time. Funny how that
works.
Steve
====================================================================
Steve White http://www.sdstate.edu/~o8aj/http/steve.html
Summer: whi...@columbia.dsu.edu Fall: o8...@sdsumus.sdstate.edu
"I don't pray to change God, I pray to change me"
paraphrase (bad one too) of C.S Lewis in Shadowlands
MC
>
> I must say that I generally agree with Peter T. Chattaway's comments in
> the previous post. Since this is a music newsgroup I'll hold my comments
> to the worship.
> I attended the D.C. event at RFK expecting to get blown away by an awesome
> worship band based on comments I had heard about last years rally. I was
> less than enthused. I play in a worship band(drums) at our church and I
> think we are more progressive than the PK band.
> Overall was it a good experience for me? Yeah, but I won't make a huge
> effort to get there next year.
Aw c'mon scott! I was at PK Detroit last year and the worship band was
perfectly sterile and completely devoid of anything that might be
miscontrued as emotion - just like CCM worship music is supposed to be!
:)
--
- Mark Chaffee
The NTJ Homepage is now @
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~wlarson/ntj/ntjhome.html
Not Ashamed!
: Did y'all sit naked in a tent, smoking cigars, and crying as someone read
: a Christian version of _Fire In The Belly_ aloud?
Get rid of the cigars and I'm there!
Susan E Stone
: Didn't you know that God is a Crimson Tide Fan? 8-)
Oh really? I thought you Bama people just thought Bear Bryant was God. ;)
: > Or when my beloved Auburn Tigers are up by four with little time on
: > the clock, but Alabama has first and ten on the Auburn 20.
: TOUCHDOWN!
Didn't happen that way last year! Four times they lobbed it in the end
zone, and four times they missed. Auburn 31 - Bama 27, if memory serves. :)
: ACK! Now I'm gonna be counting the days til the end of August and the
: start of the college football season.
I already am! (You can tell since I keep talking about football on other
newsgroups--but if you can't occasionally drift off-topic on rmc, where
can you?)
: Another Ex-Bama Refugee who would've rather seen Texas join the SEC.
I'd rather have seen Penn State join, geographically illogical as it
would've been. That way I'd get to see something besides Notre Dame and
the Big 10+1 on TV, and a certain bowl game I'm trying to forget would
never have taken place.
--Susan
Matthew C. Laswell
wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) writes:
>What Peter said about the athletes...
>
>I have to admit, that's one side of corporate Christianity that always
>bugged the living daylights out of me -- the tight intermingling of
>sports and witnessing. Maybe it's that I'm allergic to sports? I don't
>know, but there's something to that that makes me wanna just go crawl
>under a table and put my arms over my head.
>
>I'm a klutz.
That's why God gave us golf, dearie...
--
matt laswell I belong in the service of the queen
mat...@comm.mot.com I belong anywhere but inbetween.
Absolutely not the opinion of Motorola. I speak only for myself.
Matthew C. Laswell
sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Susan E Stone) writes:
>beverley (wedn...@tezcat.com) wrote:
>
>: I have to admit, that's one side of corporate Christianity that always
>: bugged the living daylights out of me -- the tight intermingling of
>: sports and witnessing. Maybe it's that I'm allergic to sports? I don't
>: know, but there's something to that that makes me wanna just go crawl
>: under a table and put my arms over my head.
>
>especially college football and basketball. That being said, I agree
>with most of what you say. I'm glad there seem to be quite a few
>Christian athletes, because I *do* think God has placed them in a
>position to be role models and witnesses to their teammates and fans,
>especially kids.
Yep. Steve Jones' testimony after winning the US Open, for example.
>But sometimes I think the church gives too much hero
>worship to Christian athletes. And I'm not sure what to think when a
>football player kneels in the end zone after making a TD. Do they think
>God likes their team better or something? I suppose it's possible that
>God cares about the outcome of a sporting event, if one team is really
>corrupt or if winning or losing would have an impact on some player
>becoming a Christian, but other than that....
There's always the old saw (I think George Carlin originated it) that
folks wouldn't mind athletes thanking Jesus when they win if they would
also say things like "I would have won, except Jesus made me miss that
three foot putt on 18..." More seriously, I do think there's some hero
worship there and it's bothersome. Sometimes it almost seems as if the
attitude is "well, <insert name of sports hero here> believes, so it
must be true." It probably has to do with being a society of vicarious
thrillseekers, but I dunno.
Does God pick one team to win a sporting event? My gut reaction is to
say that, no, He doesn't. The more I think about it, though, the more
I wonder if He might. _Not_ because the outcome of the game is at all
important to Him (if that were so, my Cubbies would be in the World
Series every year while the Atlanta Braves wouldn't have won a game in the
last decade!), but maybe the effects of winning and losing on _people_
are important to Him. I'm mostly just spitballing here, but it seems
like God's influence on this universe is allpervasive, so He's probably
doing stuff through sports, too.
>I must admit I sometimes have a hard time not praying at certain points
>when watching sporting events. Like when it's two outs in the bottom of
>the ninth, with the score tied, the bases loaded, and a full count, and
>it seems it's taking the pitcher forever to throw the ball.
I think I'm in love...
>Or when my
>beloved Auburn Tigers are up by four with little time on the clock, but
>Alabama has first and ten on the Auburn 20.
Then again...
>Anyway, to look at it from another angle, I'm glad there are so many
>Christian athletes, but I'd really like to see that same Christian
>influence in other areas of popular and/or high culture. There are
>certain directors, actors, and authors I've been praying for for years,
>because I'd love to see their talents specifically used to God's glory.
Some of this is prime _Scandal of the Evangelical Mind_ stuff - the church
doesn't really know what to do with the arts, IMHO, and doesn't really
value excellence there so much as they do mass appeal (and, dollars to
donuts, folks who disagree with this statement will probably end up
hiding behind the overused old relativist argument that says, essentially,
that "I like it, so you can't say it's not good...").
beverley
Matthew C. Laswell <mat...@comm.mot.com> wrote:
>There's always the old saw (I think George Carlin originated it) that
>folks wouldn't mind athletes thanking Jesus when they win if they would
>also say things like "I would have won, except Jesus made me miss that
>three foot putt on 18..."
Does that mean I was more of a Christian back when I thought that every
time I tried to run track and passed out from lung problems after the
first lap I was exercising my duty as <bev_at_eleven>God's Pincushion
</bev_at_eleven>?
>More seriously, I do think there's some hero
>worship there and it's bothersome. Sometimes it almost seems as if the
>attitude is "well, <insert name of sports hero here> believes, so it
>must be true." It probably has to do with being a society of vicarious
>thrillseekers, but I dunno.
I wonder if any of this would happen if Micheal Jordon or Dennis ROdman
or whoever's in the media spotlight this week were Sabean.
>>I must admit I sometimes have a hard time not praying at certain points
>>when watching sporting events. Like when it's two outs in the bottom of
>>the ninth, with the score tied, the bases loaded, and a full count, and
>>it seems it's taking the pitcher forever to throw the ball.
>
>I think I'm in love...
Um, go pigeon.
>>Or when my
>>beloved Auburn Tigers are up by four with little time on the clock, but
>>Alabama has first and ten on the Auburn 20.
ENGLISH!
>Then again...
>Some of this is prime _Scandal of the Evangelical Mind_ stuff - the church
>doesn't really know what to do with the arts, IMHO, and doesn't really
>value excellence there so much as they do mass appeal (and, dollars to
>donuts, folks who disagree with this statement will probably end up
>hiding behind the overused old relativist argument that says, essentially,
>that "I like it, so you can't say it's not good...").
"We don't want you to sing, Bev."
"Why?"
"That song doesn't glorify God."
"Yes it does. See this part about 'no power, no reason, no purpose which
stands before me...'"
"They won't understand. But see Measha over here? She sings 'It Is Well...'
and they understand, and it's perfect."
"But it's boring."
"But everyone likes it because they understand."
"But it's boring."
"No it's not. You're just a sensationalist."
There are reasons I haven't performed in many years.
Susan E Stone
: Does God pick one team to win a sporting event? My gut reaction is to
: say that, no, He doesn't. The more I think about it, though, the more
: I wonder if He might.
You know, I guess I could start a discussion of predestination here, but
I'll leave the can of worms unopened this time.
_Not_ because the outcome of the game is at all
: important to Him (if that were so, my Cubbies would be in the World
: Series every year while the Atlanta Braves wouldn't have won a game in the
: last decade!),
Oh really now? :-) Let's just say last time I got into a discussion of
praying and sporting events, I was watching the last game of the World
Series. I refused to pray, unlike some of those rooting for the other
team, but God heard and granted the unspoken desires of my heart. (Don't
get me
wrong--I like the Indians and would've rooted for them against anyone but
my Braves.)
but maybe the effects of winning and losing on _people_
: are important to Him. I'm mostly just spitballing here, but it seems
: like God's influence on this universe is allpervasive, so He's probably
: doing stuff through sports, too.
I agree.
: >I must admit I sometimes have a hard time not praying at certain points
: >when watching sporting events. Like when it's two outs in the bottom of
: >the ninth, with the score tied, the bases loaded, and a full count, and
: >it seems it's taking the pitcher forever to throw the ball.
: I think I'm in love...
Which was maybe a little presumptuous of you until you knew which teams
I'm most often tempted to pray for. ;-)
: Some of this is prime _Scandal of the Evangelical Mind_ stuff - the church
: doesn't really know what to do with the arts, IMHO, and doesn't really
: value excellence there so much as they do mass appeal (and, dollars to
: donuts, folks who disagree with this statement will probably end up
: hiding behind the overused old relativist argument that says, essentially,
: that "I like it, so you can't say it's not good...").
I've *got* to read that book! Of course, it sounds like he'd be
preaching to the choir in my case. My current life goal is to earn my
living as a journalist while writing fiction on the side, and I wish
there was more input on how to be an excellent writer who lives and works
as a Christian, but in a secular context. (Translation: I want to write
for mainstream papers and publish my novels with secular publishing
houses.) It's a little frustrating to sometimes get the impression that
many in the church wouldn't find my goals particularly important or
relevant, but fortunately I think that's changing.
Ed Rock
> One of my big problems with PK was that I wasn't gonna pay 60 bucks to hear a
> football coach tell me how "real life" is. If _anybody's_ got a skewed view
> of "real life", it's a football coach, where you spend all week looking
> at films, tote monstrous "playbooks" and quite literally _can_ "win them all".
> The only sports folks worth hearing are baseball people, where a _great_
> team still loses 1/3 of its games. When you lose, you blow it off and
> go back out there the next day.
>
> I'd much rather hear Bev spin her tales of Union Station restroom graffiti,
> churches with food courts and wedding night footwashing.
>
> Then again, if she could work in something about power tools... ;-)
Yeah, what he said.
Will McDonald
White) writes:
> It's like
>in Church we have special music, but never special clay modelling,
special
>country line dancing for the Lord, or special poetry time.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<shudder>
I think that falls under taking "strange fire" unto the altar of the
LORD. Someone might be struck down!
Will
--
The real battle just begun.
To claim the victory Jesus won,
On a Sunday, bloody Sunday,
Sunday, bloody Sunday -- U2
BSey
>
> BSey (BSey...@hcf.tdh.state.tx.us) wrote:
>
> : Didn't you know that God is a Crimson Tide Fan? 8-)
>
> Oh really? I thought you Bama people just thought Bear Bryant was God. ;)
No, Bear just calls the plays...8-)
<SNIP>
> Didn't happen that way last year! Four times they lobbed it in the end
> zone, and four times they missed. Auburn 31 - Bama 27, if memory
> serves. :)
Actually I prefer to remember the game 2(?) years ago when Bama's
defense stopped Auburn on 4th down, an inch shy of the first down mark
late in the 4th quarter to preserve the Bama win. But hey, that's
just me! 8-)
Now, It's time to start spring training...
(picks up remote control)
*CLICK* *CLICK* *CLICK*
(reaches into bag of potato chips)
*MUNCH* *MUNCH* *MUNCH*
Repeat 10x per set, 3 sets per day...
Ed Rock
> In <4qv4ll$n...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> stei...@primenet.com (Jason
> and Heather) writes:
> >
> >Susan E Stone <sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> [...] I'm not sure what to think when a football player kneels in
> >> the end zone after making a TD. Do they think God likes their
> >> team better or something?
> >
> >Yeah, did you ever notice that sports personalities always thank God
> >when they win games, and blame themselves when they lose? It's a sweet
> >deal for God, but then, being God, he probably set it up that way.
>
> >Reminds me of the "thanks for your prayer" posts I see here from
> >time to time. Praise God, so-and-so got better, so-and-so found a
> >job. Where is the joyful praise when God gets a person sick in the
> >first place? When they die from their illness? When someone gets
> >fired? No, then we blame the doctors, or the economy, or some
> >mindless virus. If God gets credit for the good things caused by
> >skilled doctors, long hours of practice on the playing field, or
> >an excellent resume, shouldn't he also be called to account for the
> >bad things that happen?
>
> Yes. I hold God accountable for both the "good" and the "bad" --
I probably do that too much. People thank God for provision when He
saves them from whatever ill fate--like "I thank God for His provision
that I wasn't hurt in that wreck." I'd like to get the chance to thank
God for His prevention. Maybe I have that chance several times everyday,
but just don't think of it that way...
> although, I have exceedingly poor comprehension of what is "good" and
> "bad" as it relates to the eternal perspective.
> Check out the book of Job. Too bad popular Christianity neglects that
> book...
It'd never sell...
Christopher C Parks
(Susan E Stone) writes:
>--Susan (Maybe I should get a job translating for the sports-challenged?
>The running joke among my friends is that I'll marry a man who doesn't
>like sports, and he'll be trying to get me to go on a romantic picnic,
>but I'll yell at him for interrupting the Bama-Auburn game/World Series/
>Olympics/NCAA tourney and tell him to go mix me another whiskey sour ;)
If this doesn't inspire a record number of marriage proposals from guys
in r.m.c., i don't know what will.
:::sitting back with pencil and paper to start counting:::::
Peace,
chris
--
"it takes more than mindless passion/ it takes more than dogma in mime/
it takes more than virtuous fashion/ to withstand the winds of time"
--mark heard
[cc...@csd.uwm.edu is chris parks][on the web: http://www.uwm.edu/~ccp2/]
Not Ashamed!
: The running joke among my friends is that I'll marry a man who doesn't
: like sports, and he'll be trying to get me to go on a romantic picnic,
: but I'll yell at him for interrupting the Bama-Auburn game/World Series/
: Olympics/NCAA tourney and tell him to go mix me another whiskey sour ;)
So much for the chance of a Philly romance. :)
Susan E Stone
: >>Or when my
: >>beloved Auburn Tigers are up by four with little time on the clock, but
: >>Alabama has first and ten on the Auburn 20.
: ENGLISH!
In non-sports lingo, what I said was that my favorite college team was
ahead by 4 points with something like 50 seconds left, but their
arch-rival had four good chances to score a touchdown, which would've put
them ahead and left my team without enough time to score again barring
divine intervention.
--Susan (Maybe I should get a job translating for the sports-challenged?
The running joke among my friends is that I'll marry a man who doesn't
like sports, and he'll be trying to get me to go on a romantic picnic,
but I'll yell at him for interrupting the Bama-Auburn game/World Series/
Olympics/NCAA tourney and tell him to go mix me another whiskey sour ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
beverley
That may be why God gave *you* golf, but that's why God gave *me* the Net.
-- bev. <img src="../images/blueback.jpg" alt="AAAAAAAAAAAA">
--
i've been around the world for a number of <bev white - wedn...@tezcat.com>
reasons; i've seen it all, the change of <http://www.tezcat.com/~wednsday>
seasons -- and i, my lord; may i say nothing?! <news:alt.fan.wednesday>
beverley
>: ENGLISH!
>
>In non-sports lingo, what I said was that my favorite college team was
>ahead by 4 points with something like 50 seconds left, but their
>arch-rival had four good chances to score a touchdown, which would've put
>them ahead and left my team without enough time to score again barring
>divine intervention.
Oh. OK, thanks.
um, go, pigeon.
This is why I'm going to die a homeless, penniless old maid.
>--Susan (Maybe I should get a job translating for the sports-challenged?
>The running joke among my friends is that I'll marry a man who doesn't
>like sports, and he'll be trying to get me to go on a romantic picnic,
>but I'll yell at him for interrupting the Bama-Auburn game/World Series/
>Olympics/NCAA tourney and tell him to go mix me another whiskey sour ;)
Whiskey sour?!
Marry me, Susa --
Oh yeah. Dang.
-- bev. but i speak golf!
Not Ashamed!
: This is why I'm going to die a homeless, penniless old maid.
Never fear, Bev.
I'm sure that someday a gallant young knight in shining armor will arrive
and save you from this fate -- by giving you a few pennies.
beverley
>beverley (wedn...@tezcat.com) wrote:
>: This is why I'm going to die a homeless, penniless old maid.
>
>Never fear, Bev.
*brightens*
>I'm sure that someday a gallant young knight in shining armor will arrive
*smiles happily*
>and save you from this fate --
*bounces*
>by giving you a few pennies.
*face falls*.
-- bev. MY BIOLOGICAL CLOCK IS TICKING!!
--
blood is like wine http://www.hallucinet.com/wednesday
i'm conscious all the time http://www.tezcat.com/~wednsday
if i had it all again i'd change it all bev white - wedn...@tezcat.com
Rob Sawatsky
: Not Ashamed! (chee...@netaxs.com) wrote:
: : Most of all, I was impressed with the impact on the guys (mostly
: : fathers of kids in the youth group) who I took. One became a Christian,
: : others who never sing actually enjoyed praising God in song, and there are
: : several wives talking about the changes in their husbands and sons talking
: : about the changes in their dads.
: Not all changes I've observed are positive. The emphasis on "leadership"
: has *got* to go, at least in a segregated setting such as a PK rally.
Why does "leadership" have to go? Is your objection based on a premise that
maleness and leadership are an evil combination? The leadership I heard
emphasized is one of integrity, commitment and example.
: I dunno. One speaker at the Seattle PK event last April said that we
: have to be sure we're worshiping God and not worshiping our worshiping,
: but I got the distinct impression that a lot of people were doing the
: latter regardless (an impression not helped when the stadium did a few
: rounds of "the wave" and the guy at the mic said that "God is moving here
: tonight" -- the same God, presumably, who referees football games).
I believe you are correct to a degree, but I will refrain from passing
judgement on others motives and methods of expression.
: I was also both amused and distressed by the way all the speaking
: happened under the banner "BREAK DOWN THE WALLS" and one speaker went so
: far as to say that we needed to break down the walls "between Jew and
: Gentile, white and black, male and female ... " Well what the hell is PK
: *erecting* those male/female walls for then? (Well, there *was* a
: handful of women operating the cash registers in the merchandise booth.
: Wouldn't want men to do any of the menial labour, after all. Maybe next
: they can wash the menfolk's feet.)
Promise Keepers is a ministry aimed at men and at specific issues of special
relevance to men, espcially men with wives and children. No ministry can
address all issues of all people at all times. I do not believe Promise
Keepers should apologize for focussing their ministry to a specific group
in society. Promise Keepers is very much about building relationships,
including those between men and women, but from a male perspective.
: What surprised me was that it was such a *normal* evangelical event,
: apart from scattered references to maleness and stuff like that. But the
: process -- the worship, the speaking, and so forth -- was so typical,
: like a no-name Billy Graham crusade, that it just rammed home the fact
: that the only thing separating this event from any other was that Girls
: Aren't Allowed.
All I can say is that you missed the point. The event was not the point,
the event was a start (hopefully) for a new way of mutual accountability
among men.
: (Oh yeah, and while I think it's cool to have boxes of free New
: Testaments, must God's Word be cluttered with all these testimonials from
: athletes, athletes, athletes, athletes? Like I give a crap what some
: overpaid musclebound jock has to say about spirituality. Well, okay, I
: *do* give a crap, but hey, let's break down some walls and get a few
: artists, lawyers, accountants, musicians, activists, cashiers, even a
I agree with you here. Superstars don't impress me. I'd rather hear a
story of someone who actually worked in the trenches.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Sawatsky All opinions are my own and in no way reflect the
opinions or policies of MacDonald Dettwiler and
r...@mda.ca Associates Ltd.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: I mean, sure, you guys get pseudo-shamanistic pap, but you get better
For some reason I want to make a joke about "bitch doctors" here, but I'm
not sure how I'd phrase it, and anyway, that might be rude ... ;) :/ :|
(Okay, so I've heard Spinal Tap's `Bitch School' one time too many ... )
--
Peter T. Chattaway | "Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves,
Culture Editor, | aye, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that
The Ubyssey | we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with
pet...@unixg.ubc.ca | trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously
------------------- | not to sin at all." -------------------- Martin Luther --
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: It's like they prepared for two groups - Fathers & Sons.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I imagine it would be especially painful for
homosexual Christian men -- and I think here of celibate ones -- who know
that fatherhood is, in all probability, just never gonna happen for 'em.
But generally speaking, it *is* a shame that they neglect the single
men. (But then, if we're single, how can we assume "leadership" roles? :P )
: Other than that, there were things I could
: learn, with the theme of Breaking Down Walls.
Perhaps, but I found them inconsistent on that point.
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: worship there and it's bothersome. Sometimes it almost seems as if the
: attitude is "well, <insert name of sports hero here> believes, so it
: must be true." It probably has to do with being a society of vicarious
: thrillseekers, but I dunno.
That's definitely a part of it, I think. Some adulation is okay, I
think, but I reserve mine for filmmakers and musicians who have connected
with my spirit in some way. Terry Scott Taylor is someone I look up to
in a big, *big* way, but not because he plays a mean guitar -- the reason
I value him so much is that his songs have spoken to me and they show
evidence of a hard-won maturity. And, of course, I always reserve the
right to disagree with him.
But these sports people -- what did *they* ever do to win my respect (or
anyone else's) for their spiritual views?
: I'm mostly just spitballing here, but it seems
: like God's influence on this universe is allpervasive, so He's probably
: doing stuff through sports, too.
In theory, I have no problem with that,
: Some of this is prime _Scandal of the Evangelical Mind_ stuff - the church
: doesn't really know what to do with the arts, IMHO, and doesn't really
: value excellence there so much as they do mass appeal (and, dollars to
: donuts, folks who disagree with this statement will probably end up
: hiding behind the overused old relativist argument that says, essentially,
: that "I like it, so you can't say it's not good...").
I recently got copies of _Abraham_ and _Jacob_ -- those Turner
Broadcasting Network adaptations of Genesis with fairly big-name stars --
to review for the local Christian paper, and I was asked to keep in mind
that certain "average people" known to the office had liked them. *That*
stuck in my craw for a few weeks (heck, it might be there still, if I'm
bringing it up here); someone else in the office said something to the
effect of "*any*body can be a movie critic."
Of course, I disagree. As a friend put it, "*Any*one can have opinions."
But not everyone can *explain* those opinions, or speak from an informed
position about the relative merits of this or that work of art against
the stream of tradition from which it comes. As it turned out, I found
both videos (especially _Jacob_) lacking when it came to drama and --
more importantly, from my point of view -- their understanding of history
and cultural contexts, but I was quite taken by _Joseph_, and I wrote my
review along those lines. So I commented on all these historical issues
which, I suppose the "average person" might not have picked up on, but
hey, I like film and I've got a history degree, so this is what I do.
(Noll, I note, is an historian himself.) Last year, when I reviewed
_Pocahontas_ and explained how that film had utterly screwed with history
to, among other things, purge the historical Pocahontas of her Christian
elements, the person who made the "anybody can be a critic" remark told
me that I was taking it too seriously, that no one would care because it
was just a Disney cartoon. I find that attitude pathetic; it neglects
the power of films to influence popular notions of history and how
history affects us today. If we're called to be "transformed by the
renewing of our mind", I think we *should* be critically examining the
assumptions and worldview(s) foisted on us by the popular culture.
Anyway, who *is* this mysterious "average person" I'm supposedly writing
for? Does (s)he even bother to pick up the paper I write for? Does
(s)he want to know nothing more than whether or not I liked a video
(which I freely admit is a terribly banal expectation to place on a
reviewer)? Does (s)he want to know that nothing the local Christian book
store sells could ever be shite? Does (s)he want nothing more than to
read press releases with bylines?
I mean, this same paper has run two reviews of _The Judas Project_ (by
other writers) in the past two years, both of them saying the film was
kinda good, bla bla bla, yet anyone I know personally who's seen it
thinks it's shit. So who's the "average person" here?
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: Peter Thomas Chattaway (pet...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: : Not all changes I've observed are positive. The emphasis on "leadership"
: : has *got* to go, at least in a segregated setting such as a PK rally.
:
: Why does "leadership" have to go? Is your objection based on a premise that
: maleness and leadership are an evil combination?
They're certainly dangerous. What was it C.S. Lewis said in _The
Screwtape Letters_, something about demons getting people to run to
extremes, getting them to scream about the horrors of war when everyone
around them is pacifistic and so on? PK, by harping on "leadership" as
though it were a male thing, when males have long been the dominant
figures in western society, is falling into the devil's trap here.
: The leadership I heard
: emphasized is one of integrity, commitment and example.
And women are incapable of these qualities?
: : I was also both amused and distressed by the way all the speaking
: : happened under the banner "BREAK DOWN THE WALLS" and one speaker went so
: : far as to say that we needed to break down the walls "between Jew and
: : Gentile, white and black, male and female ... " Well what the hell is PK
: : *erecting* those male/female walls for then? (Well, there *was* a
: : handful of women operating the cash registers in the merchandise booth.
: : Wouldn't want men to do any of the menial labour, after all. Maybe next
: : they can wash the menfolk's feet.)
:
: Promise Keepers is a ministry aimed at men and at specific issues of special
: relevance to men, espcially men with wives and children.
Why especially them? And *how* does this justify making women do the
cashier work? Jesus didn't get Mary Magdalene to wash Peter's feet
(because he had important "leadership" things to discuss with him); he
did it himself. If women held a Girls Only stadium event, would guys be
working the till for them? Somehow I think not.
: No ministry can
: address all issues of all people at all times.
So why are all 60,000+ of us who orbit Seattle in that stadium at one time?
: I do not believe Promise
: Keepers should apologize for focussing their ministry to a specific group
: in society. Promise Keepers is very much about building relationships,
: including those between men and women, but from a male perspective.
Why not build relationships between men and women from *both* perspectives?
: : What surprised me was that it was such a *normal* evangelical event,
: : apart from scattered references to maleness and stuff like that. But the
: : process -- the worship, the speaking, and so forth -- was so typical,
: : like a no-name Billy Graham crusade, that it just rammed home the fact
: : that the only thing separating this event from any other was that Girls
: : Aren't Allowed.
:
: All I can say is that you missed the point. The event was not the point,
: the event was a start (hopefully) for a new way of mutual accountability
: among men.
Perhaps the point missed *me*, then. I've played the "accountability"
game before, and believe you me, the "worship incognito" stadium setting
is *not* the way to go about this.
Susan E Stone
: In article <4r1iq0$d...@netnews.upenn.edu> sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu
: (Susan E Stone) writes:
: >--Susan (Maybe I should get a job translating for the sports-challenged?
: >like sports, and he'll be trying to get me to go on a romantic picnic,
: >but I'll yell at him for interrupting the Bama-Auburn game/World Series/
: >Olympics/NCAA tourney and tell him to go mix me another whiskey sour ;)
: If this doesn't inspire a record number of marriage proposals from guys
: in r.m.c., i don't know what will.
: :::sitting back with pencil and paper to start counting:::::
Hmph. My experience has been that while guys like hanging out with a
girl who likes sports, science fiction, and the like, they somehow end up
*dating* the ones who carry their Bibles in floral print covers and don't
know a free throw from a free safety. Annoying, because I'm not even
100% tomboy. I'm a great cook, and I know nothing about fixing a car.
And I read L.M. Montgomery novels right along with all the sf. :-)
--Susan
Lisa Reid
>On 28 Jun 1996, Will McDonald wrote:
>
>> Yes. I hold God accountable for both the "good" and the "bad" --
>
>I probably do that too much. People thank God for provision when He
>saves them from whatever ill fate--like "I thank God for His provision
>that I wasn't hurt in that wreck." I'd like to get the chance to thank
>God for His prevention. Maybe I have that chance several times everyday,
>but just don't think of it that way...
>
Near misses all around me, accidents unknown,
though I never see with human eyes the hands that lead me home.
But I know they're all around me
all day and through the night . . ."
(old Amy Grant)
You couldn't possibly know about God's prevention; it would be
hidden from you, yes?
Lisa lr...@mail.utexas.edu
"Naked is not naughty." -- Ed Rock
"Unless you pronounce it 'nekkid'." -- Kevin Hawthorne
beverley
>girl who likes sports, science fiction, and the like, they somehow end up
>*dating* the ones who carry their Bibles in floral print covers and don't
>know a free throw from a free safety.
Is that it? Merde. It sucks when you don't compromise.
>Annoying, because I'm not even
>100% tomboy. I'm a great cook, and I know nothing about fixing a car.
>And I read L.M. Montgomery novels right along with all the sf. :-)
I'm not a tomboy as far as sportishness goes, but for some reason there's
just as much boy in me as there is girl, and maybe that's the problem.
"It's just a *bra*..."
Margaret Vitalis
chee...@netaxs.com (Not Ashamed!) wrote:
>Duct tape!
>Duct tape!
>We need more stories about duct tape.
I think we've found another member of #DTUA (duct tape users
anonymous, of couse)
Whaddya think Mel??
~~~~~~~~ Margaret Vitalis ~~~~~~~ cvit...@minn.net~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey look...I have a sig! Am I doing this right??
Peter Thomas Chattaway
beverley (wedn...@tezcat.com) wrote:
: Susan E Stone <sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
: : Hmph. My experience has been that while guys like hanging out with a
: : girl who likes sports, science fiction, and the like, they somehow end up
: : *dating* the ones who carry their Bibles in floral print covers and don't
: : know a free throw from a free safety.
:
: Is that it? Merde. It sucks when you don't compromise.
Hmmmm. I guess the most serious dating I've done *has* been with the
floral-print type, though the last one of those dates was a few years ago.
I remember thinking it would be possible to corrupt her -- draw out the
dirt lurking at the roots of those printed flowers -- and get her into
some of those "guy" things. The most recent near-possibility (or
near-miss), though, was with a girl who liked scifi and stuff like that
(differences in age and religious belief brought an end to that). I don't
see why the two personality types have to be mutually exclusive, m'self.
Douglas Glen Smith
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.christian: 29-Jun-96 Re: PROMISE KEEPERS
by Rob Sawa...@mda.ca
> : What surprised me was that it was such a *normal* evangelical event,
> : apart from scattered references to maleness and stuff like that. But the
> : process -- the worship, the speaking, and so forth -- was so typical,
> : like a no-name Billy Graham crusade, that it just rammed home the fact
> : that the only thing separating this event from any other was that Girls
> : Aren't Allowed.
>
> All I can say is that you missed the point. The event was not the point,
> the event was a start (hopefully) for a new way of mutual accountability
> among men.
>
What has impressed me is how much people have changed after attending
Promise Keepers. I know that my dad and several other men from my
church at home who have attended Promise Keepers have been affected in a
good way from the event. They are getting together regularly to talk
about things other than just football. (I find it interesting that much
of the criticism here has been about the role of sports in Promise
Keepers when one of the best parts of the experience for my dad was it
has helped him find other Christian men with whom he could develope a
relationship which went beyond sports.)
As far as a *normal* evangelical event goes, I'm not sure what your idea
of normal is, Peter. For such a large evangelical group to be talking
about racism, even in a naive manner, is a huge step forward, IMHO. For
there to be discussion about gender roles, even though I probably also
disagree with a lot of what they are saying, is another hugh step
forward. Maybe the discussion is not quite as sophisticated as you or I
would like it to be. But I would dare say most of the guys attending
Promise Keepers have rarely talked about these issues. Change can't
happen overnight; but it can't start happening unless the issues are up
for discussion.
My dad has been trying to talk to others in our church about issues like
leadership for years. No one was even willing to listen to him. Now
there are a few others, not many but a few, that are willing not only to
listen, but to have dialogue about leadership. That is a good thing.
All that said, I have a chance to go to a Promise Keepers in a few
weeks, but I'm going to pass. I'm not sure that it would be worth the
money to me, and I'm not sure how relevant it would be.
**************************************************************************
* * Every now and then I seem to dream these dreams *
* Chip Smith * Where the orphans suckle and the slaves go free *
* * Touching that miraculous circumstance *
* ds...@andrew.cmu.edu * Where the blind ones see and the dry bones dance *
* * - Mark Heard - *
************http://english-www.hss.cmu.edu/home/chip/home.html************
Susan E Stone
Peter Thomas Chattaway (pet...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: Hmmmm. I guess the most serious dating I've done *has* been with the
: floral-print type, though the last one of those dates was a few years ago.
: I remember thinking it would be possible to corrupt her -- draw out the
: dirt lurking at the roots of those printed flowers -- and get her into
: some of those "guy" things. The most recent near-possibility (or
: near-miss), though, was with a girl who liked scifi and stuff like that
: (differences in age and religious belief brought an end to that). I don't
: see why the two personality types have to be mutually exclusive, m'self.
I don't think any two personality types are mutually exclusive--it's all
a continuum. I probably fit as many ultra-feminine stereotypes as tomboy
ones; it's just that a lot of the more visible aspects of my personality
are tomboyish. To be totally honest, I even liked floral print back in
high school (but never on Bible covers!), and am occasionally known even
now to wear really subtle florals, though never pastels. :-)
Anyway, the challenge seems to be coming to the point where you're
willing to be yourself, no matter what an unusual or mixed-up image that
seems to give you, and whether or not your real self seems likely to
impress anyone. In the long run, I'd regret being a fake--I'm a pretty
bad actor, and there's no way I could pretend to be something I'm not for
my whole life. That doesn't mean I don't have that urge to put on an act
to impress, though. :-(
Not Ashamed!
Susan E Stone <sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
: Hmph. My experience has been that while guys like hanging out with a
: girl who likes sports, science fiction, and the like, they somehow end up
: *dating* the ones who carry their Bibles in floral print covers and don't
: know a free throw from a free safety.
Sure!
This is just the opposite-gender version of:
My experience has been that while women like hanging out
with nice guys who affirm equality and who share their feelings and are
empathetic to others, they somehow end up *dating* the guy who you
keep telling that he shouldn't talk about women or act towards women the
way that he does.
Jason and Heather
Susan E Stone <sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> Hmph. My experience has been that while guys like hanging out with a
> girl who likes sports, science fiction, and the like, they somehow end up
> *dating* the ones who carry their Bibles in floral print covers and don't
> And I read L.M. Montgomery novels right along with all the sf. :-)
Um, guys: take heed. This is a good thing. Women literate enough to
appreciate late 19th, early 20th century children's literature are
rare indeed. If you see any Gene Stratton Porter, L.M. Montgomery,
Kenneth Grahame, Anna Sewell or Jean Webster on a young lady's book
shelf, start shopping for a ring. (And the combo with SF isn't that
surprising. Those with the capacity to enjoy one often like the other.)
jason "gonna name our first daughter Anne" steiner
--
"The man who marries a modern woman marries a woman who expects to vote
like a man, smoke like a man, have her hair cut like a man, and go without
restrictions and without chaperons and obey nobody."
BOBBED HAIR - John R. Rice, 1941 http://www.primenet.com/~steiners/
Matthew C. Laswell
In article <4r3vgq$n...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Susan E Stone) writes:
>Christopher C Parks (cc...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
>: In article <4r1iq0$d...@netnews.upenn.edu> sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu
>: (Susan E Stone) writes:
>: >--Susan (Maybe I should get a job translating for the sports-challenged?
>: >The running joke among my friends is that I'll marry a man who doesn't
>: >like sports, and he'll be trying to get me to go on a romantic picnic,
>: >but I'll yell at him for interrupting the Bama-Auburn game/World Series/
>: >Olympics/NCAA tourney and tell him to go mix me another whiskey sour ;)
>
>: If this doesn't inspire a record number of marriage proposals from guys
>: in r.m.c., i don't know what will.
>
>: :::sitting back with pencil and paper to start counting:::::
>
>girl who likes sports, science fiction, and the like, they somehow end up
>*dating* the ones who carry their Bibles in floral print covers and don't
>know a free throw from a free safety.
Ewwwww...
I hate that.
>Annoying, because I'm not even
>100% tomboy. I'm a great cook, and I know nothing about fixing a car.
>And I read L.M. Montgomery novels right along with all the sf. :-)
I'll bet u. chicago could use someone with your skills...
--
matt laswell I belong in the service of the queen
mat...@comm.mot.com I belong anywhere but inbetween.
Absolutely not the opinion of Motorola. I speak only for myself.
Matthew C. Laswell
In article <4qv4am$2...@bigbird.csd.sc.edu>,
"Scott W. Allen" <sal...@deis.sc.edu> writes:
>wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) wrote:
>>What Peter said about the athletes...
>>
>>I have to admit, that's one side of corporate Christianity that always
>>bugged the living daylights out of me -- the tight intermingling of
>>sports and witnessing. Maybe it's that I'm allergic to sports? I don't
>>know, but there's something to that that makes me wanna just go crawl
>>under a table and put my arms over my head.
>>
>>I'm a klutz.
>
>I'm with you on this, Bev. Including the klutz thing. Although
>yes, commercial Christianity has a lot to do with it, they also
>do what "works". What attracts attention. And, unfortunately,
>athletics seems to be the largest "drawing card" for, well, men.
>Not me, but a lot of men.
Yep. Mike Singletary, the great Chicago Bears linebacker, goes to
my church. On a few occasions, they've had him do special talks
and he always packs the place out. Nothing wrong with that - we're
seeker sensitive and we don't expect irreligious people to suddenly
get interested in "church stuff" out of the blue. In my church's
case, I think the focus really is on getting the gospel out. All
too often, though, I get the impression that the goal is simply
to bring in numbers as validation of God's favor or somesuch...
>Nothing wrong with athletes, but if they are the only "faith
>superheroes" *shudder* we have, there's something seriously
>wrong.
You hit that one right on the head. "there's something seriously
wrong" summarizes a lot of my opinions about the American church.
Matthew C. Laswell
In article <4r1flq$k...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
wmc...@ix.netcom.com(Will McDonald) writes:
>In <whites.26...@columbia.dsu.edu> whi...@columbia.dsu.edu (Steve
>White) writes:
>
>> It's like
>>in Church we have special music, but never special clay modelling,
>special
>>country line dancing for the Lord, or special poetry time.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
><shudder>
>
>I think that falls under taking "strange fire" unto the altar of the
>LORD. Someone might be struck down!
<dr_edward_daniel_taylor>
amen!
</dr_edward_daniel_taylor>
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Douglas Glen Smith (ds...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: What has impressed me is how much people have changed after attending
: Promise Keepers.
And I have seen people change for the worse. Promise Keepers becomes a
way of living in denial. People who once berated me in high school for
listening to Stryper and pretending that this stuff was ministering to me
are now commiting the exact same lie, if not worse, by listening to PK
tape after PK tape and allowing the PK message to confirm their rights to
be petty tyrants at home. And since the people who know them -- such as
myself -- happen to question some of their aim's, as well as some of PK's
teachings, they become convinced that we are "ungodly" when, as far as I
can see, they are the ones making God in their own image.
: As far as a *normal* evangelical event goes, I'm not sure what your idea
: of normal is, Peter. For such a large evangelical group to be talking
: about racism, even in a naive manner, is a huge step forward, IMHO.
Perhaps (though the black-white dichotomy has got to go; there were
other races on the stage in Seattle, but the only faces I can remember
seeing on those stacks of books were either black or white).
: For
: there to be discussion about gender roles, even though I probably also
: disagree with a lot of what they are saying, is another hugh step
: forward.
Is it? I find they're just re-entrenching things I've heard, and mildly
disagreed with, for years anyway.
: Maybe the discussion is not quite as sophisticated as you or I
: would like it to be. But I would dare say most of the guys attending
: Promise Keepers have rarely talked about these issues. Change can't
: happen overnight; but it can't start happening unless the issues are up
: for discussion.
Then let's *pray* it gets sophisticated. But in an environment where a
couple rounds of "the wave" is interpreted as "the spirit of God moving",
I don't think I'd keep my hopes up.
: My dad has been trying to talk to others in our church about issues like
: leadership for years. No one was even willing to listen to him. Now
: there are a few others, not many but a few, that are willing not only to
: listen, but to have dialogue about leadership. That is a good thing.
And are women involved in this discussion?
Susan E Stone
Matthew C. Laswell (mat...@tr749.tr.comm.mot.com) wrote:
: >Annoying, because I'm not even
: >100% tomboy. I'm a great cook, and I know nothing about fixing a car.
: >And I read L.M. Montgomery novels right along with all the sf. :-)
: I'll bet u. chicago could use someone with your skills...
Well, I *am* considering Northwestern for grad school. :-)
Jason and Heather
Peter Thomas Chattaway <pet...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
> Douglas Glen Smith (ds...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
> >
> > What has impressed me is how much people have changed after
> > attending Promise Keepers.
>
> And I have seen people change for the worse. Promise Keepers
> becomes a way of living in denial. People who once berated me in
> high school for listening to Stryper and pretending that this stuff
> was ministering to me are now commiting the exact same lie, if not
> worse, by listening to PK tape after PK tape and allowing the PK
> message to confirm their rights to be petty tyrants at home.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
Promise Keepers gave me the shudders from the day I first heard about
it. I've never been to any of their sessions, but I'm no stranger
to the Christian indoctrination movement, having attended my share
of seminars and retreats. The tactics used really disturb me. The
exclusivity, the unconditional "love", the attempts to break down
personal inhibitions, the long time periods involved, the artful use
of mass peer pressure, and even some minor deprivation, these things
are no accident. Someone in the Promise Keepers movement is a MASTER
manipulator.
Throw in some aging sports heroes and you've got Bill Gothard on
steroids. Far more appealing, and far, far more dangerous. Even
though this is going to offend a lot of people, I'm going to say
it anyway. If Promise Keepers were not a Christian movement, it
would be rapidly labeled as a cult.
jason
beverley
Jason Steiner:
>Um, guys: take heed. This is a good thing. Women literate enough to
>appreciate late 19th, early 20th century children's literature are
>rare indeed. If you see any Gene Stratton Porter, L.M. Montgomery,
>Kenneth Grahame, Anna Sewell or Jean Webster on a young lady's book
>shelf, start shopping for a ring. (And the combo with SF isn't that
>surprising. Those with the capacity to enjoy one often like the other.)
*ahem*
Hi, my name's Bev, and I've been reading Lucy Maud since I was knee-high
to a grasshopper....
*looks around*
*paces*
*taps foot*
I don't think your advice is working....
>jason "gonna name our first daughter Anne" steiner
Our family named the collectively-owned stuffed bunny Marilla....
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Jason and Heather (stei...@Primenet.Com) wrote:
: If Promise Keepers were not a Christian movement, it
: would be rapidly labeled as a cult.
Well, I wouldn't go *that* far. It does have its positive uses. But my
personal experience of it and its effects has not been all that happy (yet).
Jason and Heather
beverley <wedn...@tezcat.com> wrote:
> Jason Steiner:
> >
> > If you see any Gene Stratton Porter, L.M. Montgomery, Kenneth
> > Grahame, Anna Sewell or Jean Webster on a young lady's book shelf,
> > start shopping for a ring.
>
>
> Hi, my name's Bev, and I've been reading Lucy Maud since I was knee-
>
> *looks around*
>
> *paces*
>
> *taps foot*
>
> I don't think your advice is working....
Are you kidding? Remember that two month's salary rule? Now they
have to actually have a reason to start working instead of frittering
the day away reading Usenet on company time. :) I think we've found
the solution to that traffic problem...
> Our family named the collectively-owned stuffed bunny Marilla....
Awwww. I'm still trying to find a set of hand puppets or stuffed
animals for the Wind In The Willows. Do you have any idea how
difficult it is to find a stuffed RAT?!?
jason "Uh, are you sure you wouldn't rather have a nice teddy bear?" steiner
Not Ashamed!
beverley (wedn...@tezcat.com) wrote:
: Hi, my name's Bev, and I've been reading Lucy Maud since I was knee-high
: to a grasshopper....
Where do I send my pennies?
Jason and Heather
> :
> : If Promise Keepers were not a Christian movement, it
> : would be rapidly labeled as a cult.
>
> Well, I wouldn't go *that* far.
I'm sure most people wouldn't. But compare what happens at a PK
rally with what goes on at a cult indoctrination camp. The
similarities are scary. That said, I don't think the Promise Keepers
have bad motives, or that they're purposefully trying to create a
horde of robotic followers. They're just using time-honored techniques
that have been proven to work.
> It does have its positive uses.
Of course. Propaganda and indoctrination are only bad if they're
used by the other guy. When we do it, we're "spreading the Truth"
and when people respond, it's a sign that "God is working".
Sorry, don't mean to pick on you. Am in a foul mood today, and this
is one topic I'm still a bit bitter about.
jason "just a little" steiner
Not Ashamed!
Jason and Heather (stei...@Primenet.Com) wrote:
: I'm sure most people wouldn't. But compare what happens at a PK
: rally with what goes on at a cult indoctrination camp. The
: similarities are scary.
Compare 'em with what happens on a youth retreat or a week at any summer
camp or a canoe trip with your friends.
The similarities show the banality of suggesting that "cult indoctrination
camps" hold as great a sway over people as some (not all, but some)
anti-cult crusaders would have us believe.
beverley
In article <4r9708$2...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
>: would be rapidly labeled as a cult.
>
So do many cults...
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Jason and Heather (stei...@Primenet.Com) wrote:
: > Jason and Heather (stei...@Primenet.Com) wrote:
: > : If Promise Keepers were not a Christian movement, it
: > : would be rapidly labeled as a cult.
: >
: > Well, I wouldn't go *that* far.
:
: I'm sure most people wouldn't. But compare what happens at a PK
: rally with what goes on at a cult indoctrination camp. The
: similarities are scary.
I don't think so. Not quite, at any rate. There was no sleep
deprivation, no food deprivation, and, apart from one or two moments where
you had to turn-to-your-neighbour, no enforced confessions or breaking
down of your soul in the presence of witnesses. Stadiums aren't conducive
to cult-like activities, really, since you can always "worship incognito".
The danger of cultic influences comes on the smaller scale, and since I
have not bothered to join any PK Bible studies -- which are highly suspect
anyway since they are *para*church activities and detract from one's
devotion to home church, denomination, and so forth -- I cannot say what
they are like.
It occurs to me, though, that Bible studies really ought to involve both
genders, and while I think a boys-only annual stadium event is kinda bad,
I think a boys-only regular (weekly?) study is even worse.
: That said, I don't think the Promise Keepers
: have bad motives, or that they're purposefully trying to create a
: horde of robotic followers. They're just using time-honored techniques
: that have been proven to work.
Agreed.
: > It does have its positive uses.
:
: Of course. Propaganda and indoctrination are only bad if they're
: used by the other guy.
:) Kind of like, "*We* practice a religion, but *you* practice a cult."
(I don't mean to trivialize your "cult" analogy; I just find that it's
all too easy for Christians of any stripe to deride other stripes, to say
nothing of non-Christians, as "cultic" without realizing that they share
many of the supposedly "cultic" attributes. Witness J.T. Chick and his
love affair with the Catholics.)
: Sorry, don't mean to pick on you. Am in a foul mood today, and this
: is one topic I'm still a bit bitter about.
Funny, I didn't think you *were* picking on me; the discussion seemed
straightforward enough to me, and I do share many of your concerns. If
this is you when you're in a foul mood, I'd hate to see you when you're
thinking rationally. ;)
--
Peter T. Chattaway | "No man is an Island, entire of it self ... "
Culture Editor, | -- John Donne, Meditation XVII
The Ubyssey | "I am a little world made cunningly ... "
pet...@unixg.ubc.ca | -- John Donne, Holy Sonnet V
beverley
In article <4r9atj$m...@netaxs.com>, Not Ashamed! <chee...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>beverley (wedn...@tezcat.com) wrote:
>: Hi, my name's Bev, and I've been reading Lucy Maud since I was knee-high
>: to a grasshopper....
>
>Where do I send my pennies?
I take Western Union, but if you have to use Visa or Mastercard, I'm sure I
can work something out with a friend of mine. :>
beverley
Jason and Heather <stei...@Primenet.Com> wrote:
>beverley <wedn...@tezcat.com> wrote:
>> I don't think your advice is working....
>
>Are you kidding? Remember that two month's salary rule? Now they
>have to actually have a reason to start working instead of frittering
>the day away reading Usenet on company time. :) I think we've found
>the solution to that traffic problem...
Ocol. :)
*blinks*
Wait.
There's just one problem.
I don't want a diamond. Or gold, for that matter (allergic).
Does the rule apply to silver or pewter bands carved with leaves?
>> Our family named the collectively-owned stuffed bunny Marilla....
>
>Awwww. I'm still trying to find a set of hand puppets or stuffed
>animals for the Wind In The Willows. Do you have any idea how
>difficult it is to find a stuffed RAT?!?
I actually own one. His name is Quark, so called because his nose and ears
are of the proper Crumpled Paper And Two Saucers configuration....
they're made by 24kPowderPuff.
Conversely, do you have an FAO Schwarz in your area? They often have very
surprising toys... we have two in bus range of my place; I can look for you
if you like.
>jason "Uh, are you sure you wouldn't rather have a nice teddy bear?" steiner
I have LOTS of these. The other day, I was walking home and found a white
polar bear in Indian jewelry, with silver bracelets and armbands and head-
pieces.... I gotta pick her up after Cstone. [Chicagoans: leave the bear in
the window of Raaz on Devon Avenue alone. She's MINE!]
Right now, I've gotta decide what stuffie to take to Cornerstone, and let me
tell you, it's NOT easy. At last count, the teddies outnumbered the CDs.
[My tiny futon is often rather crowded at night...] My choices seem to be
down to:
* Yancey [bear; curly light blonde fur and weights in his bottom and feet]
* Lucado [bunny; brown, big feet]
* Saliers [red Grateful Dancing Bear]
* Eeyore [self-explanatory]
* Cantelon [bear; goldenrod big soft thing]
* Mullins [bear; light brown, looks like Rich Mullins in a weird way]
* Tops [triceratops; rainbow; squeaks]
and several assorted creatures who will gaze at me pitifully when I leave them.
Steve White
In article <4r9aat$e...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> stei...@Primenet.Com (Jason and Heather) writes:
>Peter Thomas Chattaway <pet...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>> Jason and Heather (stei...@Primenet.Com) wrote:
>> :
>> : If Promise Keepers were not a Christian movement, it
>> : would be rapidly labeled as a cult.
>>
>> Well, I wouldn't go *that* far.
>I'm sure most people wouldn't. But compare what happens at a PK
>rally with what goes on at a cult indoctrination camp. The
>similarities are scary. That said, I don't think the Promise Keepers
>have bad motives, or that they're purposefully trying to create a
>horde of robotic followers.
That was kind of my fear when I went there. I was concerned that a lot of the
men came back talking about the worship and fellowship and to them it was just
a big emotional experience, whereas the focus should be the spritual. The same
can be said about many large retreats and rallies. Some people can get wrapped
up in the experience of such a large corporate worship. The point I would like
to conclude with is that there can be positive benefits from activities such
as promise keepers. I had friends who had reluctantly come after being invited
end up rededicating their lives, so I can't say it's all bad. We just ahve to
pray that people seek the Holy Spirit and Biblical truth.
Steve
====================================================================
Steve White http://www.sdstate.edu/~o8aj/http/steve.html
"There's no pit like reputation/ there's no cancer like ambition/
There's no cure like crucifixtion" Charlie Peacock
Lisa Reid
In <4r2gkd$6...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>, wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) writes:
>-- bev. MY BIOLOGICAL CLOCK IS TICKING!!
Your biological clock is 20. Relax. :-P :-)
beverley
In article <4r9f5l$2a...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>,
Lisa Reid <lr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>In <4r2gkd$6...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>, wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) writes:
>>-- bev. MY BIOLOGICAL CLOCK IS TICKING!!
>
>Your biological clock is 20. Relax. :-P :-)
Yes, but if I'm not careful, that could change.
Jason and Heather
Not Ashamed! <chee...@netaxs.com> wrote:
> Jason and Heather (stei...@Primenet.Com) wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure most people wouldn't. But compare what happens at a PK
> > rally with what goes on at a cult indoctrination camp. The
> > similarities are scary.
>
> summer camp or a canoe trip with your friends.
Oh, lets!
> The similarities show the banality of suggesting that "cult
> indoctrination camps" hold as great a sway over people as some (not
> all, but some) anti-cult crusaders would have us believe.
As Peter pointed out in another branch on this thread, those groups
typically labeled as cults tend to go heavier on the deprivation,
making them somewhat more effective. And they are effective. Starve
yourself for 40 days and 40 nights and you don't have to be Jesus
to start having conversations with the devil. If there's somebody
else aiding and abetting the process, it goes even faster.
What happens at a youth retreat is typically a lot more subtle, but
it can be just as effective. Mostly because the subjects are there
voluntarily. I've had probably a dozen such experiences in my short
life. Now, I'm probably just weak willed, but after about the seventh
or eighth time, even I started to wonder what the hell was going on.
Turns out brainwashing isn't just for people with saffron robes and
shaved heads. It's quite a science, one that's practiced to a greater
or lesser degree by many religions, militaries, and even businesses.
(Arthur Anderson, anyone?)
jason "whiter than snow, yes whiter than snow" steiner
Jason and Heather
beverley <wedn...@tezcat.com> wrote:
> Jason and Heather <stei...@Primenet.Com> wrote:
> > beverley <wedn...@tezcat.com> wrote:
> > > I don't think your advice is working....
> >
> > Are you kidding? Remember that two month's salary rule?
>
> matter (allergic). Does the rule apply to silver or pewter bands
> carved with leaves?
No one who refuses to pay the traditional tribute to the DeBeers
family is even allowed to get married anymore. That said, *if*
one wished to offend both natural and moral law, (and as the epitome
of propriety, I would never suggest such a thing) one could still
cause one's suitors two months of anguish by insisting on a
platinum band. While the material itself is only twice as expensive
as gold, it is far more difficult to work. Finding a jeweler willing
to take on such a task will do much to test the will of an eager
young man.
> >I'm still trying to find a set of hand puppets or stuffed
> >animals for the Wind In The Willows. Do you have any idea how
> >difficult it is to find a stuffed RAT?!?
>
> I actually own one. His name is Quark, so called because his nose
> and ears are of the proper Crumpled Paper And Two Saucers
> configuration.... they're made by 24kPowderPuff.
Hope springs eternal. Somehow I doubt your rat is equipped with a
stout cudgel and a pair of pistols, but any rat is better than
no rat at all when you're trying to tell a bedtime story.
> Conversely, do you have an FAO Schwarz in your area?
Actually, I believe there is one. It's time to go shopping!
[Tale of woe and familial separation deleted. I'm getting misty eyed.]
jason "Now that's a Cornerstone excuse!" steiner
John Swick P040
In article <4r914k$r...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
>
>: What has impressed me is how much people have changed after attending
>: Promise Keepers.
>
>And I have seen people change for the worse. Promise Keepers becomes a
>way of living in denial. People who once berated me in high school for
>listening to Stryper and pretending that this stuff was ministering to me
>are now commiting the exact same lie, if not worse, by listening to PK
>tape after PK tape and allowing the PK message to confirm their rights to
>myself -- happen to question some of their aim's, as well as some of PK's
>teachings, they become convinced that we are "ungodly" when, as far as I
>can see, they are the ones making God in their own image.
Just to put my two cents in... I attended in Washington. I know many
others who did, and many who are into a lot of the organized
follow-up, although I myself am not. I have not seen any of these
such "tyrants", nor can I fathom how PK would have created them. I
found that their message conforms to the Biblical standard of male
headship *without* tyranny toward their wife or children (Ephesians
5:33, 6:4).
That's not to say I'm naive and think that there are no "tyrants"
running around after Promise Keepers. A little bit of knowledge can
be a dangerous thing, and I'm sure the mere mention of the Bible's
stance that wives should "submit to their husbands" is indeed enough
to confirm certain preconceptions and cause some to shut their ears
off to the rest of scripture. So does that mean PK should stop
teaching that part of scripture? I don't think we should ever stop
teaching the word of God just because someone's bound to screw it up.
And in the case of PK, the small number of negative anecdotes amongst
the huge number of positive ones makes me worry even less about it.
---J. J.
--
**********************************************************************
J. J. Swick, E911 Software Design, Northern Telecom
(919) 991-8782, esn 294-8782
**********************************************************************
beverley
In article <4r9f4f$n...@brtph500.bnr.ca>, John Swick P040 <sw...@bnr.ca> wrote:
>That's not to say I'm naive and think that there are no "tyrants"
>running around after Promise Keepers. A little bit of knowledge can
>be a dangerous thing, and I'm sure the mere mention of the Bible's
>stance that wives should "submit to their husbands" is indeed enough
*sigh*
*mutters something about "mutual submission, people" and gets back to packing*
Peter Thomas Chattaway
John Swick P040 (sw...@bnr.ca) wrote:
: Peter Thomas Chattaway <pet...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
: >And I have seen people change for the worse. Promise Keepers becomes a
: >way of living in denial. People who once berated me in high school for
: >listening to Stryper and pretending that this stuff was ministering to me
: >are now commiting the exact same lie, if not worse, by listening to PK
: >tape after PK tape and allowing the PK message to confirm their rights to
: >be petty tyrants at home. And since the people who know them -- such as
: >myself -- happen to question some of their aim's, as well as some of PK's
: >teachings, they become convinced that we are "ungodly" when, as far as I
: >can see, they are the ones making God in their own image.
:
: Just to put my two cents in... I attended in Washington. I know many
: others who did, and many who are into a lot of the organized
: follow-up, although I myself am not. I have not seen any of these
: such "tyrants", nor can I fathom how PK would have created them.
I wouldn't say PK creates them, but it doesn't discourage them, either.
A few pithy words about mutual submission don't eradicate the powerful
impact of 60,000 men crammed into a single stadium with nary a woman in
sight. An ongoing wallpaper soundtrack of men singing pretty hymns to
God can soothe the would-be tyrant's mind when he's back at home.
On my way to the Seattle PK event, there was some radio talk show where a
guy phoned in saying he was in his early 20s, he had recently married
someone in her late 30s (or older), and he was having a hard time
disciplining her kids, who were within a year or two of 20. "These kids
think they rule the world," he said. Where any *sane* counselor would
have said, "Who the hell do you think you are to come into the lives of
these people you could have gone to highschool with and start bossing
them around?", the PK people just kind of hemmed and hawed over how
goshdarn tough it is in these unique situations.
: That's not to say I'm naive and think that there are no "tyrants"
: running around after Promise Keepers. A little bit of knowledge can
: be a dangerous thing . . .
Nicely put. I'll have to remember that.
: I don't think we should ever stop
: teaching the word of God just because someone's bound to screw it up.
Well, sometimes we should, actually. Sometimes we teach something so
much our teaching is no longer in accord with the scriptural balance. If
hearing the teaching is going to leave someone else just as unbalanced,
then no matter how "accurate" the teaching on that isolated point may be,
we *should* stop teaching that and get back to the other stuff.
: And in the case of PK, the small number of negative anecdotes amongst
: the huge number of positive ones makes me worry even less about it.
Not Ashamed!
beverley (wedn...@tezcat.com) wrote:
: *mutters something about "mutual submission, people" and gets back to packing*
Amen!
-- Dan, who wishes he was packing for Cornerstone
( even 'though he hasn't packed anything but toiletries, sunblock, and
towels for vacation in almost 10 years)
Jeffrey Parks
In article <4r9g4i$n...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
Jason and Heather <stei...@Primenet.Com> wrote:
>shaved heads. It's quite a science, one that's practiced to a greater
>or lesser degree by many religions, militaries, and even businesses.
>(Arthur Anderson, anyone?)
I believe it's called "socialization." No, it's not a bad thing,
unless it's used for bad purposes. IMHO, I consider the purposes
of Promise Keepers to be good ones. Therefore, I applaud their
methods. Sorry to be such a voice of reason in the midst of the
paranoia.
J Robert
beverley
In article <4r9ia0$r...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote:
>No one who refuses to pay the traditional tribute to the DeBeers
>family is even allowed to get married anymore. That said, *if*
>one wished to offend both natural and moral law, (and as the epitome
>of propriety, I would never suggest such a thing) one could still
>cause one's suitors two months of anguish by insisting on a
>platinum band. While the material itself is only twice as expensive
>as gold, it is far more difficult to work. Finding a jeweler willing
>to take on such a task will do much to test the will of an eager
>young man.
*thinks* I could live with a platinum ring ... a braid with a sapphire
set into it....
>> >I'm still trying to find a set of hand puppets or stuffed
>> >animals for the Wind In The Willows. Do you have any idea how
>> >difficult it is to find a stuffed RAT?!?
>>
>> I actually own one. His name is Quark, so called because his nose
>> and ears are of the proper Crumpled Paper And Two Saucers
>> configuration.... they're made by 24kPowderPuff.
>
>Hope springs eternal. Somehow I doubt your rat is equipped with a
>stout cudgel and a pair of pistols, but any rat is better than
>no rat at all when you're trying to tell a bedtime story.
He is without weaponry, true, but he is stout, for whatever that
might be worth. And one can accessorize one's rat!
>> Conversely, do you have an FAO Schwarz in your area?
>
>Actually, I believe there is one. It's time to go shopping!
FAO Schwarz: Heaven.
>[Tale of woe and familial separation deleted. I'm getting misty eyed.]
Most people raise children. I keep stuffies.
-- bev, whose eventual mate will have to deal with display of said toys.
Jeffrey Parks
In article <4r9cma$s...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
>genders, and while I think a boys-only annual stadium event is kinda bad,
>I think a boys-only regular (weekly?) study is even worse.
Why?
Given my experience with "singles" bible studies, where most people
were there to hook up rather than learn anything, I consider same-sex
studies to be quite a bit more effective. Besides, I do believe
that there are significant differences between the genders, and
sometimes one can only discuss those issues in, shall we say, a
non-threatening environment.
Yes, if one is only involved in same-sex situations, then that's bad.
But Promise Keepers isn't about that at all. While I would never go
(the hype turns me off), I do think it's helping a lot of people, and
I applaud that.
J Robert
Jeffrey Parks
In article <whites.30...@columbia.dsu.edu>,
Steve White <whi...@columbia.dsu.edu> wrote:
>That was kind of my fear when I went there. I was concerned that a lot of the
>men came back talking about the worship and fellowship and to them it was just
>a big emotional experience, whereas the focus should be the spritual. The same
>can be said about many large retreats and rallies.
At the risk of igniting a huge debate, I take issue with your problem.
The emotional side of our being is significant, and is not antithetical
to or in conflict with the spiritual. It all goes together. I have seen
many cases in which an emotional event was critical to a spiritual
transformation. And, vice-versa -- the spiritual event brought about
an emotional transformation. To be honest, I'm always a little
suspicious when the two aren't correlated.
Christianity is not solely a rational faith. If it was, to paraphrase
Paul, we would be the most unfortunate of people.
J Robert
who realizes that people do sometimes completely mistake an emotional
thing for a spiritual one. Let's just not throw out the baby with the
bathwater.
Jason and Heather
Jeffrey Parks <jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Jason and Heather <stei...@Primenet.Com> wrote:
> >
> > Turns out brainwashing isn't just for people with saffron robes
> > and shaved heads. It's quite a science, one that's practiced to a
> > greater or lesser degree by many religions, militaries, and even
> > businesses. (Arthur Anderson, anyone?)
>
> I believe it's called "socialization."
There's quite a large difference between socialization, and inducing
vulnerable mental states in your audience in order to more easily
impose your own ideas upon them.
> No, it's not a bad thing, unless it's used for bad purposes. IMHO,
> I consider the purposes of Promise Keepers to be good ones.
> Therefore, I applaud their methods.
In the immortal words of Steve Taylor, "The end don't justify the
means anytime."
jason
Shari Lloyd
wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) wrote:
>In article <4r9f5l$2a...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>,
>Lisa Reid <lr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>>In <4r2gkd$6...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>, wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) writes:
>>>-- bev. MY BIOLOGICAL CLOCK IS TICKING!!
>>
>>Your biological clock is 20. Relax. :-P :-)
>
>Yes, but if I'm not careful, that could change.
So be careful and reeeeeeeeeeeeelaaaaaaaaaax. 8-)
The LSMOORMC will let you when you should panic.
--
Shari Lloyd sll...@suba.com
(Cornerstone 96 Homepage) http://www.suba.com/~slloyd/cstone.html
(Chicago Area CCM Concerts) http://www.suba.com/~slloyd/
"I woke up in Escher's world today ...up's down, down is out,
out is in, stairways circle back to where you're been - time
falls, water crawls, are you listening." Chagall Guevara
Will McDonald
In <Dtw0w...@midway.uchicago.edu> jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu (Jeffrey
Parks) writes:
>Given my experience with "singles" bible studies, where most people
>were there to hook up rather than learn anything, I consider same-sex
>studies to be quite a bit more effective.
It just so happens that I returned from a "singles" Bible study less
than an hour ago where I was *not* trying to "hook up" with anyone.
Certainly there were two healthy prospects there, but our class is
structured in such a way as to discourage that sort of motivation.
Yes, I am well aware that majority of "singles" events and church
departments have an unhealthy emphasis upon getting together rather
than church, but there are still plenty of exceptions.
Will
--
The real battle just begun.
To claim the victory Jesus won,
On a Sunday, bloody Sunday,
Sunday, bloody Sunday -- U2
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: >Turns out brainwashing isn't just for people with saffron robes and
: >shaved heads. It's quite a science, one that's practiced to a greater
: >or lesser degree by many religions, militaries, and even businesses.
: >(Arthur Anderson, anyone?)
:
: I believe it's called "socialization." No, it's not a bad thing,
: unless it's used for bad purposes. IMHO, I consider the purposes
: of Promise Keepers to be good ones. Therefore, I applaud their
: methods. Sorry to be such a voice of reason in the midst of the
: paranoia.
Five sentences of that sort hardly constitute "a voice of reason". For
one thing, you haven't established that the other side is experiencing
"paranoia". You also haven't clarified what the "good purposes" of PK
might be, or whether it is *meeting* those purposes. You also haven't
considered the *bad* purposes of PK (such as its semi-serious emphasis on
breaking down walls between denominations -- I'm all in favour of talking
across the fences, but people, those fences exist for a *reason* -- as the
grand ecumenical cliche goes, "Unity is *not* uniformity"). You also
haven't clarified *who* calls it "socialization" or what *you* mean by
that term. This is not the voice of reason combatting paranoia. At best,
this is the voice of kneejerk disagreement writing off genuine concerns.
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Jeffrey Parks (jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: Peter Thomas Chattaway <pet...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
: : It occurs to me, though, that Bible studies really ought to involve both
: : genders, and while I think a boys-only annual stadium event is kinda bad,
: : I think a boys-only regular (weekly?) study is even worse.
:
: Why?
Because that is not what Jesus, Paul, or any of the other trendsetters at
the earliest levels of my faith's tradition practiced. (Yeah, Jesus
appears to have picked only men for his "twelve", but it's questionable
how much fraternizing he did with them on their own.)
: Given my experience with "singles" bible studies, where most people
: were there to hook up rather than learn anything, I consider same-sex
: studies to be quite a bit more effective.
In my experience, home Bible studies are too small for any serious
"hooking up". The date pool isn't all that big, there's next to nothing
to choose from, so you pretty much hafta focus on your Bible studies and
do your scouting elsewhere. The fact that some people join the group *as*
couples restricts options even more. Wednesday chapel meetings are more
conducive to the hunt.
But then, maybe I've just never been that desperate for a date.
: Besides, I do believe
: that there are significant differences between the genders, and
: sometimes one can only discuss those issues in, shall we say, a
: non-threatening environment.
On a weekly basis? To the exclusion of mixed-gender studies?
: Yes, if one is only involved in same-sex situations, then that's bad.
: But Promise Keepers isn't about that at all. While I would never go
: (the hype turns me off), I do think it's helping a lot of people, and
: I applaud that.
Well, I've never been one to judge the means by their end. Especially
when the end is so mixed. (Oddly enough, just tonight I was reading about
the role of revivalism in killing Christian intellectualism in Mark Noll's
_Scandal of the Evangelical Mind_, and he addresses the problems with this
sort of pragmatism ... )
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Jeffrey Parks (jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: At the risk of igniting a huge debate . . .
When yours is the 79th post on this thread on my server, and when I know
a dozen or more previous posts have been dropped due to their age, I
doubt you'd be the one "igniting" anything here ...
: The emotional side of our being is significant, and is not antithetical
: to or in conflict with the spiritual. It all goes together.
Along with the intellectual, of course.
: To be honest, I'm always a little
: suspicious when the two aren't correlated.
I'm always *quite* suspicious when rational thought is deemed irrelevant
in these great emotional/spiritual events.
: Christianity is not solely a rational faith.
Good God, what sort of claim is *this* to make? Who ever said it *was*?
(Why am I reminded of _The Screwtape Letters_ and that bit -- in chapter
7, I think -- where Screwtape tells Wormwood to get humans flocking to
extremes: when everyone's already primarily pacifist, get them obsessing
over the horrors of militarism, and so on. In this case, where
Christianity already suffers from a lack of rationalism, someone's telling
us to stop being so rational! Yipes!)
: If it was, to paraphrase
: Paul, we would be the most unfortunate of people.
Paul was an interesting one in the way he was able to harness both the
rational and the superrational in his life and message. But I don't
recall him saying *that* phrase in this context. As I recall, he said we
were the most unfortunate if our hope was "only for this life" (I Cor. 15).
Catherine Richardson
Peter Thomas Chattaway (pet...@unixg.ubc.ca) writes:
> It occurs to me, though, that Bible studies really ought to involve both
> genders, and while I think a boys-only annual stadium event is kinda bad,
> I think a boys-only regular (weekly?) study is even worse.
Hmmmm. Does this also apply to girls-only studies? I made fun of women's
Bible studies for years, then I joined one, and remembered how women can
be open and honest so much more easily when the menfolk aren't around. Even
if a study is set up in such a way that people aren't scoping for potential
dates, there is still a fair amount of inhibition present, in the form of
"What will people think of me if I say what I really think?" Though I have
no personal basis for comparison, I think this inhibition is significantly
greater in women, because most of us have learned to please people in order
to be liked.
On the other hand, I strongly suspect that men are MORE likely to be open
and honest when women are around, and revert to smartass mode when it's just
the boys. Can anyone offer confirmation of my theory?
And I do think it's good for men and women to study the Bible TOGETHER so
that we can learn to love each other more like Jesus does. (I am not talking
about romantic love here.)
Perhaps this is one of those examples of things that needn't be exactly the
same for men and women (contrary to what many feminists would have us
believe.)
In a similar vein, I'm strongly in favour of girls-only schools, especially
for those crucial junior high years, but I don't think boys-only schools
are a great idea. But which girls can you "sacrifice" for the sake of the
boys having a humanizing influence around? Obviously I'm internally
inconsistent. Logically I should just vanish. :)
Anyone want to take me up on my discussion of schooling? Or are all you
Americans off enjoying yourselves at the barbeque? <sigh>
catherineanne
--
Catherine Richardson <cc...@freenet.carleton.ca>
Fellow of the Perpetual Undergraduate Society
"Don't give in to society's pressure to draw your education to an end."
John Swick P040
In article <4r9k7l$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
>A few pithy words about mutual submission don't eradicate the powerful
>impact of 60,000 men crammed into a single stadium with nary a woman in
>sight. An ongoing wallpaper soundtrack of men singing pretty hymns to
>God can soothe the would-be tyrant's mind when he's back at home.
>
Peter, I appreciate your reasoned response. The only other thing I
might add is that I believe PK was started in response to perceived
weakness in Christian men in our society. For example, on the race
issue, the point was made that when the church doesn't do its job,
false leaders step right in (ex. Louie Farrakhan). Applying that
thinking to family issues, men in this society are more likely to be
too weak than too strong. The bozos who abandon a woman to single
motherhood are a blatant example, but even a lot of good Christian men
who care about their families leave a lot to be desired, biblically
speaking. Considering the state of men in our society, I think the
push should be for stronger men. You may be very well right, that
more emphasis should be put on the fact that being a tyrant is NOT
biblical strength, but in fact weakness, but I would still maintain
that only a fringe element is getting this out of PK.
---J. J.
PS - ObRMC...My biggest complaint with PK is that the band didn't play
any metal...huh huh, huh huh, that would be cool... Well, okay, it
would be cool for me, but in such a broad ranging crowd, I guess we'd
have to keep our Romans 14 sensibilities, oh well.
Matthew C. Laswell
In article <4r8mas$j...@netaxs.com>,
chee...@netaxs.com (Not Ashamed!) writes:
>Susan E Stone <sst...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>: Hmph. My experience has been that while guys like hanging out with a
>: girl who likes sports, science fiction, and the like, they somehow end up
>: *dating* the ones who carry their Bibles in floral print covers and don't
>: know a free throw from a free safety.
>
>Sure!
>
>This is just the opposite-gender version of:
>
>My experience has been that while women like hanging out
>with nice guys who affirm equality and who share their feelings and are
>empathetic to others, they somehow end up *dating* the guy who you
>keep telling that he shouldn't talk about women or act towards women the
>way that he does.
That sound you just heard was a nail being struck squarely on the head...
--
matt laswell I belong in the service of the queen
mat...@comm.mot.com I belong anywhere but inbetween.
Absolutely not the opinion of Motorola. I speak only for myself.
the kumquat kuriosity
In article <4rajgf$5...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, pet...@unixg.ubc.ca (Peter Thomas
Chattaway) wrote:
> Five sentences of that sort hardly constitute "a voice of reason". For
> one thing, you haven't established that the other side is experiencing
> "paranoia". You also haven't clarified what the "good purposes" of PK
> might be, or whether it is *meeting* those purposes. You also haven't
> considered the *bad* purposes of PK (such as its semi-serious emphasis on
> breaking down walls between denominations -- I'm all in favour of talking
> across the fences, but people, those fences exist for a *reason* -- as the
> grand ecumenical cliche goes, "Unity is *not* uniformity"). You also
> haven't clarified *who* calls it "socialization" or what *you* mean by
> that term. This is not the voice of reason combatting paranoia. At best,
> this is the voice of kneejerk disagreement writing off genuine concerns.
Then let me be the voice of reasoned disagreement taking issue with
knee-jerk Promise Keepers knocks. <grin>
First, the work to knock down denominational boundaries does not, by any
means, say that we must all have a vanilla faith with no variation. The
strong divisions between different Christian "clubs," however, has proven
to be a great hindrance to the body's working together for the common
goals we *do* share. If you don't see that, then you never spent time with
a charismatic and a baptist in the same room back in the 70's... They may
hve agreed on the basic tenets of the faith, but... You'r guilty of some
serious straw-manning when you imply that the PK movemen is seeking to
homogenize the Christian faith.
I see the goal of the promise keeprs movement (their stated goal,
actually) as one that's simlar to the book, "Tender Warrior" by Stu Weber.
While the press, and many who observe the movement, see it as a
christianized version of testoserone-laced chest-beating and drum
pounding, its goals and methods are far different than Bly's movement.
It's about motivating men to pursue their God-given responsibilities as
fathers and husbands.
--kumquat
--
[==ea...@wwa.com===http://miso.wwa.com/~eaton===the kumquat kuriosity==]
[ good does not require evil, as light does not / have you hugged your ]
[ require dark. contrast is not dependence. / sysadmin today? ]
[======================================================================]
the kumquat kuriosity
In article <4rb8ud$h...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
cc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Richardson) wrote:
> Peter Thomas Chattaway (pet...@unixg.ubc.ca) writes:
>
> > It occurs to me, though, that Bible studies really ought to involve both
> > genders, and while I think a boys-only annual stadium event is kinda bad,
> > I think a boys-only regular (weekly?) study is even worse.
>
>
> Hmmmm. Does this also apply to girls-only studies? I made fun of women's
> Bible studies for years, then I joined one, and remembered how women can
> be open and honest so much more easily when the menfolk aren't around. Even
> if a study is set up in such a way that people aren't scoping for potential
> dates, there is still a fair amount of inhibition present, in the form of
> "What will people think of me if I say what I really think?" Though I have
> no personal basis for comparison, I think this inhibition is significantly
> greater in women, because most of us have learned to please people in order
> to be liked.
While this is true in some ways, men have also learned to maintain an
"image" of macho reserve in order to appear manly. It can be just as
beneficial for guys to get together and share with each other in a
non-threatening environment as it can be for women to share with each
other. There are things tthat I woudl sahre with the guys I know that I
wouldn't feel comfortable talking to female friends about. <shrug>
Obviously, keeping men and women apart as a general principle is not a
good thing . But I'm bewildered by Peter's insistence that gender-specific
events (or at least male-specific events) are inherently a bad thing.
> On the other hand, I strongly suspect that men are MORE likely to be open
> and honest when women are around, and revert to smartass mode when it's just
> the boys. Can anyone offer confirmation of my theory?
In some ways, it's true, and in other ways it's a dangerous assumption to
make. It's like saying that women are more likely to be catty and gossip
when they're alone with each other than when they're around men. <shrug>
Obviously, that's a dangeroud blanket statement, but it's in the same
league as the "men go smart-ass when they're alone with each other"
comment.
> Perhaps this is one of those examples of things that needn't be exactly the
> same for men and women (contrary to what many feminists would have us
> believe.)
Things needn't be the same, but in this instance I would say that they can
both be beneficial.
> In a similar vein, I'm strongly in favour of girls-only schools, especially
> for those crucial junior high years, but I don't think boys-only schools
> are a great idea. But which girls can you "sacrifice" for the sake of the
> boys having a humanizing influence around? Obviously I'm internally
> inconsistent. Logically I should just vanish. :)
**POOF!**
<grin>
Seriously, I think that both all-male and all-female schools can be a good
thing. And heavens me, "sacrificing" girls to mixed-gender schools?
They're not exactly being tied to the altar... <chuckle>
Seriously, the positive factors about all-female interaction can be just
as true for all-male interaction. To stereotype all-male interaction as
Tim Allen-style grunting, scratching, and joking is no different than
labelling female get-togethers as nothing but knitting parties.
> Anyone want to take me up on my discussion of schooling? Or are all you
> Americans off enjoying yourselves at the barbeque? <sigh>
hopefully the kumquat will be present at the BBQ.
--kumquat
--
[==ea...@wwa.com===http://miso.wwa.com/~eaton===the kumquat kuriosity==]
[ good does not require evil, as light / few things in life are as ]
[ does not require dark. contrast / annoying as having 'baby baby ]
[ is not dependence. / stuck in your head. ]
[======================================================================]
beverley
In article <4ra5oo$p...@suba01.suba.com>, Shari Lloyd <sll...@suba.com> wrote:
>wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) wrote:
>>In article <4r9f5l$2a...@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>,
>>Lisa Reid <lr...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>>>In <4r2gkd$6...@huitzilo.tezcat.com>, wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) writes:
>>>>-- bev. MY BIOLOGICAL CLOCK IS TICKING!!
>>>
>>>Your biological clock is 20. Relax. :-P :-)
>>
>>Yes, but if I'm not careful, that could change.
>
>So be careful and reeeeeeeeeeeeelaaaaaaaaaax. 8-)
But if I relax, I won't be careful!
Remember, it's this history of uterine polyps and fibroids, not
to mention endometriosis, that I'm worried about...
>The LSMOORMC will let you when you should panic.
Can I panic now?
beverley
In article <4rbfnb$h...@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au>, snail <sv...@uow.edu.au> wrote:
>wedn...@tezcat.com (beverley) writes:
>>Hi, my name's Bev, and I've been reading Lucy Maud since I was knee-high
>>to a grasshopper....
>>*looks around*
>>*paces*
>
><fx: races up panting> Sorry I'm late. Bev, will you...go out with me ?
Meet me at seven...
>(and she's into SF - aren't you Bev ?)
Ayep.
>>*taps foot*
>
>Aaaarrrrggggghhhhh She's into line dancing...I recant..I recant!! :-)
*tsk*
I do not line dance.
I charleston, I pony and I twist.
Take that as you will....
>BTW those of you lucky enough to be attending Cornerstone make
>sure you goto the rmc picnic and say Hi to my friend Suzanne.
<smartmouth>
"Hi to my friend Suzanne."
</smartmouth>
:)
Michael A. Vickers
>PS - ObRMC...My biggest complaint with PK is that the band didn't play
>any metal...huh huh, huh huh, that would be cool... Well, okay, it
>would be cool for me, but in such a broad ranging crowd, I guess we'd
>have to keep our Romans 14 sensibilities, oh well.
yeah. after the spirit of god is done with the wave, then the spirit of
god will lead us into a little release of energy in the mosh pit in front
of the stage... we'll be linked via satellite with a remote location so we
can all mosh together ;)
Michael
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Vickers mvic...@mindport.net
10325...@compuserve.com
http://www.mindport.net/~mvickers vicke...@aol.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
'but, it's so much fun to go there!' - leslie
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beverley
In article <eaton-02079...@news.wwa.com>,
the kumquat kuriosity <ea...@wwa.com> wrote:
>Seriously, I think that both all-male and all-female schools can be a good
>thing. And heavens me, "sacrificing" girls to mixed-gender schools?
>They're not exactly being tied to the altar... <chuckle>
You think? *inscrutable bevergrin*
>Seriously, the positive factors about all-female interaction can be just
>as true for all-male interaction. To stereotype all-male interaction as
>Tim Allen-style grunting, scratching, and joking is no different than
>labelling female get-togethers as nothing but knitting parties.
Aroo?
Ar.
R R R.
*scratch*
>> Anyone want to take me up on my discussion of schooling? Or are all you
>> Americans off enjoying yourselves at the barbeque? <sigh>
>
>hopefully the kumquat will be present at the BBQ.
Better be.
--
you're turning tricks http://www.hallucinet.com/wednesday
with your crucifix http://www.tezcat.com/~wednsday
you're a star bev white - wedn...@tezcat.com
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Catherine Richardson (cc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: Peter Thomas Chattaway (pet...@unixg.ubc.ca) writes:
: > It occurs to me, though, that Bible studies really ought to involve both
: > genders, and while I think a boys-only annual stadium event is kinda bad,
: > I think a boys-only regular (weekly?) study is even worse.
:
: Hmmmm. Does this also apply to girls-only studies?
Sure. I just don't see a biblical reason to segregate. I have no
problem with occasional single-gender activities, but a weekly and
indefinitely ongoing study devoted to only men or women? No thanks.
: I made fun of women's
: Bible studies for years, then I joined one, and remembered how women can
: be open and honest so much more easily when the menfolk aren't around.
Well, that wouldn't apply to men's studies, since "open" isn't in our
vocabulary. :)
: Even
: if a study is set up in such a way that people aren't scoping for potential
: dates, there is still a fair amount of inhibition present, in the form of
: "What will people think of me if I say what I really think?"
But you get that even in single-gender studies. Especially since, in a
sense, there are more than just two genders, thus a two-way split is no
real solution. How is an all-male study going to help a gay man overcome
inhibition? Especially if all they ever do is talk about how they're
gonna "lead" their wives and kids?
: Though I have
: no personal basis for comparison, I think this inhibition is significantly
: greater in women, because most of us have learned to please people in order
: to be liked.
And men haven't?
: On the other hand, I strongly suspect that men are MORE likely to be open
: and honest when women are around, and revert to smartass mode when it's just
: the boys. Can anyone offer confirmation of my theory?
Heh. I almost said that myself in response to something you said above.
Then again, I've enjoyed being the smartass around the womenfolk
sometimes. But then, as I've said for a long, long time, for me,
"sincerity" and "sarcasm" (and all related ilk) are often indistinguishable.
: In a similar vein, I'm strongly in favour of girls-only schools, especially
: for those crucial junior high years, but I don't think boys-only schools
: are a great idea. But which girls can you "sacrifice" for the sake of the
: boys having a humanizing influence around? Obviously I'm internally
: inconsistent. Logically I should just vanish. :)
What sorts of logic *do* they teach in these all-girl schools ... ;)
: Anyone want to take me up on my discussion of schooling? Or are all you
: Americans off enjoying yourselves at the barbeque? <sigh>
Well, *I'm* not American ... ;)
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: weakness in Christian men in our society. . . .
: The bozos who abandon a woman to single
: motherhood are a blatant example, but even a lot of good Christian men
: who care about their families leave a lot to be desired, biblically
: speaking.
I agree about the bozos, but I'm not sure what you mean on the latter
point. In any case, I thought organizations like Focus on the Family --
as much as I disagree with their glorification of the whitebread
middle-class 1950s -- were doing this job already, and with an eye to the
*entire* family and not just the men.
: PS - ObRMC...My biggest complaint with PK is that the band didn't play
: any metal...huh huh, huh huh, that would be cool...
[ laughter! ] If Lost Dogs ever plays a PK gig I may have to rethink my
position on this matter ... :)