Non-Christian music for a Christian Mind
Matthew Rhinehart
Christian) who can't see 1) why I listen to speed metal, and 2) how I can
listen to non-Christian groups like Megadeth, etc.
Well, I happen to LIKE speed metal, so that part of the argument didn't go
too far. As for the other portion, he described the "brainwashing" effects
of the music, and how you condition yourself to the music. Well, I see it a
bit differently than he does, and I'm not sure how everyone else feels about
this, but this is my personal belief. I always tend to look for the
Christian elements of the music that I listen to--any music. I'm not trying
to seek out "evil" portions and condemn a group based upon that. Neither
will I listen to any "blatant" Satan-worshiping groups like Venom or
anything like that. Megadeth, I consider to be, mostly, a non-Christian
group with great music and decent lyrics at times.
It seems to follow that music is conditioning, but it also seems to dictate
that you would condition yourself based upon what your interpretation of the
lyrics are. Also, there is what I see as positive and negative
conditioning. Positive conditioning would be anything you would receive
from Christian music or any other positive music/lyrics. Negative
conditioning is a bit difficult to describe, but if a song has a negative
slant to it, I tend to reject the message in it, or build the negativity of
the message. For instance, as was mentioning in a thread recently, there is
a lyric in Queensræªhe's Operation: Mindcrime that goes "The blood of Christ
can't heal my wounds/so deep." I see that as a reinforcement that, hey,
I've received forgiveness for my sins and will never feel that way again!
There are other people in the world who DO feel that way, and need Jesus. I
see that as an affirmation of faith, and a call to arms. Now, this may be a
bit on the extreme side, but I think that you can see what I'm shooting at.
In any case, what I am trying to say is that your personal point of view
can be the deciding factor of how you take music. If you listen to music
SPECIFICALLY to attempt to show it as non-Christian, you might just miss out
on not only great musical talent, but also on a bit of honey in the rock (no
pun intended). Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE proponent of Christian
music, and personally believe Tourniquet to be one of the GREATEST metal
bands out there today, both lyrically and musically. I wouldn't trade my
Christian music for anything, I'm just saying that there are also lessons to
be learned from non-Christian music.
Now that I've droned on for quite a bit, what are other feelings about this?
------------------------------------------------------------------
"What you don't know might not hurt you until after you die."
-- Metal Church
Matthew Rhinehart mrhi...@students.wisc.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------
Clive
: It seems to follow that music is conditioning, but it also seems to dictate
: that you would condition yourself based upon what your interpretation of the
: lyrics are.
This doesn't follow. Usually associated with a lack of understanding of
metal. The music is usually asssociated with feelings of truculence, or
pugnaciousness. However, does this transcend into one's self-conditioning?.
In my case, I wouldn't think so. I don't feel the urge to be pernicious
or aggressive, because there are positive ways in which this can be
expressed through the art of metal.
: Also, there is what I see as positive and negative
: conditioning. Positive conditioning would be anything you would receive
: from Christian music or any other positive music/lyrics.
Hmm.. I've heard of logical positivism, but not logical negativism. Firstly
music is neither alone secular or christian, just music. For example, take
Joe Satriani's "Surfing With The Alien", an incredible rock-guitar
instrumental album, that displays an affluence of talent unparalleled
in the genre imho. Assuming you refer to lyrics, imho, this is only
secondary, since musical integrity should be the prime ingredient of artistic
endeavours. I usually don't find anything objectionable in lyrics, after all
how are you supposed to understand other peoples opinions if you never
listen to them. Generally I don't find that much positivism in christian
music, usually enducing some kind of cataleptic condition. Also most bands
feel an incumbence to 'preach it straight', leading to pellucid art.
: For instance, as was mentioning in a thread recently, there is
: a lyric in Queensrche's Operation: Mindcrime that goes "The blood of Christ
: can't heal my wounds/so deep." I see that as a reinforcement that, hey,
: I've received forgiveness for my sins and will never feel that way again!
However this lyric is contextual, within a concept album based on a struggle.
The character (Sister Mary) has been misused, and betrayed by her
'protector' Father William. It's the phoney evnagelistical slant here..
: In any case, what I am trying to say is that your personal point of view
: can be the deciding factor of how you take music.
True.
: If you listen to music
: SPECIFICALLY to attempt to show it as non-Christian, you might just miss out
: on not only great musical talent, but also on a bit of honey in the rock (no
: pun intended).
This is ludicrously ridiculous imho. Music is not non-christian, OK so bands
like Morbid Angel, Deicide etc, go around advocating anti-christian
sentimentism, but is due to the lyrics. Musical talent is not based upon
an individuals personal philosophy. Only superciliousness would suggest
that 'christian' music is better or best.
: Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE proponent of Christian
: music, and personally believe Tourniquet to be one of the GREATEST metal
: bands out there today, both lyrically and musically.
I would agree that Tourniquet are a fabulous band, and if I had to pick one
christian metal band to make it, it would be them. I can't help but feel,
being stuck in christian bookstores is hindering Tourniquet's growth.
Even 100,000 sales in the mainstream would bring considerable revenue, that
the band could afford the luxury of taking time in the studio, perfecting
the songs, amplification set-ups etc. In the genre of speed metal, Tourniquet
are one of the most talented bands there is. Ted Kirkpatrick imho is the
best drummer going, better than Lars Ulrich of Metallica. Metallica can
sell 12 million copies, so 1/100 of that would be 120,000 which would be
considerable for a christian metal band. However Tourniquet would need
similar kind of exposure that Stryper once enjoyed. I like their lyrical
allegory also.
: I'm just saying that there are also lessons to
: be learned from non-Christian music.
Musicianship for one.
: Now that I've droned on for quite a bit, what are other feelings about this?
Lyrically I don't object to all that much. If the music is crap, then it
wouldn't matter to me how good the lyrics were. However if the music is
great, then I can appreciate the artistic qualities of music. I guess I'm
hard to please lyrically. For example, I don't think Mortification write
particularly good lyrics, although I like the music of their last 2 albums.
I also don't think Neil Peart of Rush is particularly good. Whoever told
him he was a philosopher has done him a great disfavour imho.
Clive.
Steve Mooradian
|> Hmm.. I've heard of logical positivism, but not logical negativism. Firstly
|> music is neither alone secular or christian, just music. For example, take
|> Joe Satriani's "Surfing With The Alien", an incredible rock-guitar
|> instrumental album, that displays an affluence of talent unparalleled
|> in the genre imho. Assuming you refer to lyrics, imho, this is only
|> secondary, since musical integrity should be the prime ingredient of artistic
|> endeavours. I usually don't find anything objectionable in lyrics, after all
|> how are you supposed to understand other peoples opinions if you never
|> listen to them. Generally I don't find that much positivism in christian
|> music, usually enducing some kind of cataleptic condition. Also most bands
|> feel an incumbence to 'preach it straight', leading to pellucid art.
|> Clive.
I just have to interject that I agree with CLive on pretty much his
whole post.... but this part in particular... I wanted to point out that
there are many who would dismiss all secular music.... well.... I don't see
how ANYONE could possibly dismiss Joe Satriani as being any sort of
"satanic" musician just because he isn't on WORD or whoever.... I mean,
come on people, I will go out on a limb and say that I think Joe is the
best guitarist in the world right now.... and possibly ever.... I know
that is saying a lot.... no offense to Dennis Cameron or anything.... but
when you have taught the likes of Kirk Hammet, Steve Vai, and Eddie Van
Halen..... then you have to be good..... plus listening to Surfing With The
Alien and The Extremist leaves me little doubt....
--
*****************************************************************************
STEPHEN MOORADIAN ----- Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute ----- moo...@rpi.edu
*****************************************************************************
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Clive <p937...@qub.ac.uk> wrote:
>Matthew Rhinehart (mrhi...@students.wisc.edu) wrote:
>: It seems to follow that music is conditioning, but it also seems to dictate
>: that you would condition yourself based upon what your interpretation of the
>: lyrics are.
>
>This doesn't follow. Usually associated with a lack of understanding of
>metal. The music is usually asssociated with feelings of truculence, or
>pugnaciousness. However, does this transcend into one's self-conditioning?.
>In my case, I wouldn't think so. I don't feel the urge to be pernicious
>or aggressive, because there are positive ways in which this can be
>expressed through the art of metal.
Throughout most of this article I seem to agree with you both, albeit in
different respects. :-) I would assert self-conditioning, no stress,
SELF-conditioning... _if_ you seek to get a message from the music (incl.
lyrics) and use it, that's based upon your interpretation (_and_ evaluation
of the result) of the music [but not on some imaginary inherent property
of the music, so it's not the _music_ that's conditioning!].
>: Also, there is what I see as positive and negative
>: conditioning. Positive conditioning would be anything you would receive
>: from Christian music or any other positive music/lyrics.
This I find mostly a tautological statement: the conditioning would be
positive if the music was positive. But how do you evaluate "positive"
in both cases? Rather this seems to be rating music with respect to your
perception/evaluation of it. And maybe "conditioning" is not a term that
can be applied to something passive as music (_you_ play it, consider it,
etc.!).. what you seem to be saying is that it's not good to go against
better knowledge and condition yourself with what you think is not right.
Looks like Romans 14 to me.
>Hmm.. I've heard of logical positivism, but not logical negativism.
I have no clue what you're trying to say here??
> Firstly
>music is neither alone secular or christian, just music. [...]
>in the genre imho. Assuming you refer to lyrics, imho, this is only
>secondary, since musical integrity should be the prime ingredient of artistic
>endeavours.
Ehm, this sounds like a misstatement... musical integrity should be the prime
ingredient of musical endeavours.. yes... you can substitute any other
adjective as well. I would agree that a song (music+lyrics) doesn't hold up
if the music is crap; and that I wouldn't even bother considering the lyrics
if it is, _but_ I can't stand listening to some lyrics I really disagree with
either. ["really" == in every sense AND strongly.] Repeatedly, that is, I
have no problems investigating things.
> I usually don't find anything objectionable in lyrics, after all
>how are you supposed to understand other peoples opinions if you never
>listen to them.
I will agree with "usually", _but_... I don't think investigation is the
primary issue... surely we should investigate... I don't think anyone would
care to say anything against _that_. I strongly agree that recognizing the
perspective some view is from is a huge part of interpretation; and that you
can appreciate the view _given_ certain premisses (say, despair given
nihilism) as true, etc. What I have trouble with is people picturing views
from a perspective that can never be seen from there (say, life is all rosey
given christianity).
> Generally I don't find that much positivism in christian
>music, usually enducing some kind of cataleptic condition. Also most bands
>feel an incumbence to 'preach it straight', leading to pellucid art.
You're using so much unusual words that I can't tell whether "enducing" is a
typo... anyway it's not in my pocket dictionary... BTW, _please_ go on in
this style; I love to extend my vocabulary. :-)
>: For instance, as was mentioning in a thread recently, there is
>: a lyric in Queensrche's Operation: Mindcrime that goes "The blood of Christ
>: can't heal my wounds/so deep." I see that as a reinforcement that, hey,
>: I've received forgiveness for my sins and will never feel that way again!
>
>However this lyric is contextual, within a concept album based on a struggle.
>The character (Sister Mary) has been misused, and betrayed by her
>'protector' Father William. It's the phoney evnagelistical slant here..
I don't think it's "however", I think it's "because". The contextual/
perspectival seems to be what Matthew is writing about... "that _I_ have
received... and will never feel that way again". As for the situation...
I think the more immediate contextual is Mary's state of mind; there are
sure _reasons_ for that state of mind, though. :-) I agree that what she
is expressing here is that the superficial preachings of Father William
and co. aren't true... just come to Christ and you'll have your sins healed
is _not_ an accurate portrayal. But that doesn't mean Matthew can't be
thankful that someone apparently has explained the true connection (and
meaning of "healed"), so that he's not likely to waste time evaluating
such shallow statements and finding them false!
>: In any case, what I am trying to say is that your personal point of view
>: can be the deciding factor of how you take music.
>
>True.
I think we all agree on the above, as entirety, whichever way we'd choose to
express it. :-)
>: If you listen to music
>: SPECIFICALLY to attempt to show it as non-Christian, you might just miss out
>: on not only great musical talent, but also on a bit of honey in the rock (no
>: pun intended).
>
>This is ludicrously ridiculous imho. Music is not non-christian, OK so bands
I guess you're agreeing with Matthew. :-) Maybe not quite, or maybe the above
is a more than slight understatement. ;-) I think we agree that there can be
something to be learnt from just about everything (musical).
>like Morbid Angel, Deicide etc, go around advocating anti-christian
>sentimentism, but is due to the lyrics. Musical talent is not based upon
>an individuals personal philosophy. Only superciliousness would suggest
>that 'christian' music is better or best.
I think we're not all using "music" for music sans lyrics. :-) the artistical
integrity of the whole would depend on the lyrics as well. And this is based
on philosophy insofar (IMO) as people try to express the _truth_ (from
whatever framework). When people are expressing utter nonsense [and not
purposely to...] then the product is nauseating to me. (Okay, I should say
"if I perceive...", but at least I said _to me_.) That doesn't mean that
whatever that truth is, is also interesting, though. [From a falsehood you
can "prove" anything... that doesn't mean that I'd like to listen to all
the things that can be proved from it].
>: Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE proponent of Christian
>: music, and personally believe Tourniquet to be one of the GREATEST metal
>: bands out there today, both lyrically and musically.
I'm not specifically a proponent of 'christian' music in particular, at all.
I am a proponent of veracity, honesty, openness, etc, though, but I don't
think anyone would seriously think those two are so _obviously_ equal as to
be communicationally exchangeable.
>I would agree that Tourniquet are a fabulous band, and if I had to pick one
>christian metal band to make it, it would be them.
I guess I'll have to agree. Though it doesn't really make sense to compare
speed to doom, etc.
> I can't help but feel,
>being stuck in christian bookstores is hindering Tourniquet's growth.
Speaking of which, I couldn't order them where I tried... guess I'll try
some more... You sent me the label etc. I recall, so I _should_ be able
to get the message through somehow..
>Even 100,000 sales in the mainstream would bring considerable revenue, that
>the band could afford the luxury of taking time in the studio, perfecting
>the songs, amplification set-ups etc.
Quite frankly, I don't care that much for this type of perfection.
> In the genre of speed metal, Tourniquet
>are one of the most talented bands there is. Ted Kirkpatrick imho is the
>best drummer going, better than Lars Ulrich of Metallica.
He's definitely good... but just how good.. uhm.. I am not sure this type
of comparison makes even too much sense.
>considerable for a christian metal band. However Tourniquet would need
>similar kind of exposure that Stryper once enjoyed. I like their lyrical
>allegory also.
So do I... but that makes me wonder if they wouldn't need _more_ exposure
than Stryper... for the lyrics aren't as easily accessible... and the music
isn't to most either, I think.
>: I'm just saying that there are also lessons to
>: be learned from non-Christian music.
>
>Musicianship for one.
There are others as well.
>: Now that I've droned on for quite a bit, what are other feelings about this?
I already mailed you. :-)
>Lyrically I don't object to all that much. If the music is crap, then it
>wouldn't matter to me how good the lyrics were. However if the music is
>great, then I can appreciate the artistic qualities of music.
But does that equal liking to listen to the stuff if the lyrics are not just
nonsense, but majorly annoying?
> I guess I'm
>hard to please lyrically.
Yeah, I think so. I just got a message from someone saying how he liked
Warlock/Doro for [among other thigns] good lyrics. I tend to agree in the
sense that a lot of them _are_ meaningful to me. I recall you were kinda
hard on them... [okay: some are pretty nonsensical, we talked about that.]
> For example, I don't think Mortification write
>particularly good lyrics, although I like the music of their last 2 albums.
Is that supposed to be a good example? From what I've seen I don't like
their lyrics at all, really. Maybe the problem is the same: I probably don't
care for Mort nearly as much, so am not likely to see much redemptive
qualities, 'cause I don't really bother to try and interpret them.
>I also don't think Neil Peart of Rush is particularly good. Whoever told
>him he was a philosopher has done him a great disfavour imho.
I am not going to give an opinion on this: major ignorance here.
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Bonehead
>I would agree that Tourniquet are a fabulous band, and if I had to pick one
>christian metal band to make it, it would be them. I can't help but feel,
>being stuck in christian bookstores is hindering Tourniquet's growth.
>Even 100,000 sales in the mainstream would bring considerable revenue, that
>the band could afford the luxury of taking time in the studio, perfecting
>the songs, amplification set-ups etc. In the genre of speed metal, Tourniquet
>are one of the most talented bands there is. Ted Kirkpatrick imho is the
Ted Kirkpatrick is _incredibly_ overrated, IMHO...
Try Living Sacrifice, or Precious Death, or even older Mortification...
Ted's just got a drumset bigger than an apartment complex. If _I_ had a
drumset that big...
*grin*
>best drummer going, better than Lars Ulrich of Metallica. Metallica can
>sell 12 million copies, so 1/100 of that would be 120,000 which would be
>considerable for a christian metal band. However Tourniquet would need
>similar kind of exposure that Stryper once enjoyed. I like their lyrical
>allegory also.
>Clive.
--
Charles (Chad) Mercer E-Mail: bon...@ksu.ksu.edu
Bass Player, Teflon Brain http://www.ksu.edu/~thak/
System Analyst, Citation Marketing Network Systems, Cessna Aircraft
Consultant, Computing and Network Services, Kansas State University
Daniel Temmesfeld
>From: bon...@ksu.ksu.edu (Bonehead)
>Subject: Re: Secular Metal ( was Re: Non-Christian music for a Christian Mind)
>Date: 17 Nov 1994 20:40:56 -0600
>>I would agree that Tourniquet are a fabulous band, and if I had to pick one
>>christian metal band to make it, it would be them. I can't help but feel,
>>being stuck in christian bookstores is hindering Tourniquet's growth.
>>Even 100,000 sales in the mainstream would bring considerable revenue, that
>>the band could afford the luxury of taking time in the studio, perfecting
>>the songs, amplification set-ups etc. In the genre of speed metal, Tourniquet
>>are one of the most talented bands there is. Ted Kirkpatrick imho is the
>Ted Kirkpatrick is _incredibly_ overrated, IMHO...
How so? I've seen him live several times, and he just blows me away. The
only other drummers that I consider up there would be Mike Portnoy (of Dream
Theater) and Lars (of Metallica). I would put Robert Sweet up there for his
flashiness alone.
>Try Living Sacrifice, or Precious Death, or even older Mortification...
I have, Living Sacrifice excluded. Roger from PD is good, but I would
consider him just an ordinary heavy metal drummer. He doesn't do anything
out-of-the-ordinary. Mortification's old drummer (Jason I believe) was just
thrashing. I really see not much talent in that. I see Ted's style as
harder, even though he doesn't rip out the per capita beats as Mort's (though
close).
>Ted's just got a drumset bigger than an apartment complex. If _I_ had a
>drumset that big...
I get lost trying to find the kick drum pedal... ;-)
>*grin*
*sigh*
>>best drummer going, better than Lars Ulrich of Metallica. Metallica can
>>sell 12 million copies, so 1/100 of that would be 120,000 which would be
>>considerable for a christian metal band. However Tourniquet would need
>>similar kind of exposure that Stryper once enjoyed. I like their lyrical
>>allegory also.
I just wish that Tourniquet could get any publicity close to Stryper...
>>Clive.
>Charles
Dan
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
^^ postfix -"ly"
>weren't that difficult... Do you know I made a list of about 60 words I was
>previously unfamiliar with for "Carnal forge"? Wanna learn English, gotta
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I meant "Heartwork" (the album it's on); this song being the most contributive.
>That's wehat i wrote later on. "necessary" <> "sufficient" is our brilliant
what I
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Clive
: >the songs, amplification set-ups etc. In the genre of speed metal, Tourniquet
: >are one of the most talented bands there is. Ted Kirkpatrick imho is the
: Ted Kirkpatrick is _incredibly_ overrated, IMHO...
I would agree... I think he's got great feel and emotion, quite difficult
to portray through drumming, and he also has a great sense of timing, even
during those unusual time signatures. The solos on "K517" and "Viento
Borasscosso" are incredible, and I usually go into a state of catalepsy
listening to drums solos.
: Try Living Sacrifice, or Precious Death, or even older Mortification...
Not sure if this is referring to music or drumming?.. either way I couldn't
find _anything_ pleasureable about Living Sacrifice. Precious Death are
very good musically, sort of a half-breed of progressive and speed metal,
while I don't particularly like Mort's early stuff, the drummer was quite
good, although it seemed at times to be just pounding the drums for the
beats per capita count. Very tight rhythmically though.
: Ted's just got a drumset bigger than an apartment complex. If _I_ had a
: drumset that big...
: *grin*
Heh :).. there used to be this guy that had an enormous drum kit, about
75 individual drums, and a couple of dozen cymbals!. I've heard that
Ted's kit is also quite old... but at least he knows how to treat it! *grin*
: --
: Charles (Chad) Mercer E-Mail: bon...@ksu.ksu.edu
Clive.
Clive
: I just have to interject that I agree with CLive on pretty much his
: whole post.... but this part in particular... I wanted to point out that
: there are many who would dismiss all secular music.... well.... I don't see
: how ANYONE could possibly dismiss Joe Satriani as being any sort of
: "satanic" musician just because he isn't on WORD or whoever.... I mean,
: come on people, I will go out on a limb and say that I think Joe is the
: best guitarist in the world right now.... and possibly ever....
I'll go out on a limb also and agree with Steve. Imho "Surfing With The
Alien" is the best rock guitar instrumental album ever recorded. Everything
from driving rock ("Surfing With The Alien", "Crushing Day"), ballads
("Always With Me, Always With You", "Echo"), to the groovy "Satch Boogie".
Great stuff!.
: I know
: that is saying a lot.... no offense to Dennis Cameron or anything.... but
: when you have taught the likes of Kirk Hammet, Steve Vai, and Eddie Van
: Halen..... then you have to be good..... plus listening to Surfing With The
: Alien and The Extremist leaves me little doubt....
Agreed, there's also some great stuff on "Flying In A Blue Dream". There
are many pretenders to his crown though.
Actually a guitarist I find _very_ underrated is Lanny Cordola.
Clive.
Clive
[..snip..]
I have written a lengthy reply to this, obviously Jeroen was too busy
to post it for me though.. ;) [I lost posting access for a couple of
days]. Maybe he's ruminating about his response... :)
Anyway, got the Cynic CD last week, great stuff. Not sure too many would
feel comfortable with the lyrics though. (seems like self-realisation
poems). Musically it is _very_ progressive and hard and intense.
Clive.
_______________________________________________________________________
| My opinion is just | Clive McCaig | I've seen the path |
| a point of view | Dept. Applied Mathematics | the one you take |
| And your position | & Theoretical Physics | shows the truth |
| is the other side | Queens University Belfast | for you to make |
| - Fates Warning - | Northern Ireland | - Dream Theater - |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bonehead
>In article <3ah47o$d...@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu> bon...@ksu.ksu.edu (Bonehead) writes:
>>From: bon...@ksu.ksu.edu (Bonehead)
>>Subject: Re: Secular Metal ( was Re: Non-Christian music for a Christian Mind)
>>Date: 17 Nov 1994 20:40:56 -0600
>>Ted Kirkpatrick is _incredibly_ overrated, IMHO...
>How so? I've seen him live several times, and he just blows me away. The
>only other drummers that I consider up there would be Mike Portnoy (of Dream
>Theater) and Lars (of Metallica). I would put Robert Sweet up there for his
>flashiness alone.
Um, I've seen him live, too. And, well, yeah. He plays fast, and does weird
stuff, but I'd like to see him play on a set that isn't larger than the
Titanic... If he can play on a 4-piece like Jim Chaffin (ex-Crucified), I'll
be impressed.
>>Try Living Sacrifice, or Precious Death, or even older Mortification...
>I have, Living Sacrifice excluded. Roger from PD is good, but I would
>consider him just an ordinary heavy metal drummer. He doesn't do anything
>out-of-the-ordinary. Mortification's old drummer (Jason I believe) was just
>thrashing. I really see not much talent in that. I see Ted's style as
>harder, even though he doesn't rip out the per capita beats as Mort's (though
>close).
Living Sacrifice's drummer is _fast_. Probably the fastest drummer alive. I
will give you that he's probably not as "creative" as Ted, but I definitely
like his style. As for Roger from Precious Death, I would definitely suggest
you pick up the new album, and/or see them live sometime (I just saw them
for the third time about two weeks ago). He's got all of the style of Ted,
without the attitude, and more passion (IMHO). As for Jayson of Mort, he's
really quite good at playing fast, however, he also does a lot with the
strange patterns, etc.
If you're into strangeness and creativity, though, I would definitely say
that Joey Daub of Believer has Ted destroyed, hands down. I don't think
that _anyone_ could top Joey's intricate rhythms. (Or even really fathom
them...)
>>Ted's just got a drumset bigger than an apartment complex. If _I_ had a
>>drumset that big...
>I get lost trying to find the kick drum pedal... ;-)
Well, I can't even play drums with both hands and one foot. That's why I
stick to bass...
>>*grin*
>*sigh*
What's wrong?
>I just wish that Tourniquet could get any publicity close to Stryper...
I do, too. Even though I think Ted is overrated...
*grin*
>>>Clive.
>>Charles
Well, you can call me Chad...
>Dan
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Clive <p937...@qub.ac.uk> wrote:
>Bonehead (bon...@ksu.ksu.edu) wrote:
>: Ted Kirkpatrick is _incredibly_ overrated, IMHO...
^^^^
>
>I would agree... I think he's got great feel and emotion, quite difficult
Really? (Just verifying... ;-))
>: Try Living Sacrifice, or Precious Death, or even older Mortification...
>
>Not sure if this is referring to music or drumming?.. either way I couldn't
>find _anything_ pleasureable about Living Sacrifice. Precious Death are
To drumming, I'd say...
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
>I have written a lengthy reply to this, obviously Jeroen was too busy
>to post it for me though.. ;) [I lost posting access for a couple of
>days]. Maybe he's ruminating about his response... :)
Actually I posted it within an hour, and started thinking about the reply
_after_ posting it. Well, thinking, I started out with 'F' actually. :-)
Apparrently it takes more than three days to get through to your site. :-(
>Anyway, got the Cynic CD last week, great stuff. Not sure too many would
>feel comfortable with the lyrics though. (seems like self-realisation
>poems). Musically it is _very_ progressive and hard and intense.
Hmmm, some samples (maybe email?). No hurry, I am way behind anyway. But..
I was under the impression that the vocal department wasn't quite to my
taste... what do you think?
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Clive
: >the songs, amplification set-ups etc. In the genre of speed metal, Tourniquet
: >are one of the most talented bands there is. Ted Kirkpatrick imho is the
*EEK* I misread your post the first time.......
: Ted Kirkpatrick is _incredibly_ overrated, IMHO...
Hmm... to each their own, but I have already stated why I like Kirkpatrick
more than most drummers [on previous post]
: Try Living Sacrifice, or Precious Death, or even older Mortification...
None of these drummers are _anything_ near as good as Kirkpatrick. Living
Sacrifice were nothing more than standard death metal, except less
talented than some bands. Precious Death are good, but the drummer does
nothing more than keep time and throw in a few fills. Unless Sherlock is
drastically better with Paramecium than he was with Mortification, I don't
see him as a challenger (see the inlay of SOTM for what he thinks of
Kirkpatrick). He does keep time very well, and rhythmically he is very
tight. But there is more to drumming than just speed. Kirkpatrick has the
feel and finesse imho. :)
: Ted's just got a drumset bigger than an apartment complex. If _I_ had a
: drumset that big...
I'm not sure how big this is by normal standards. I heard he had a fairly
small set when he played ... drats.. forget (but the guy I was talking to
goes to MSUS I think).
: *grin*
I'm still practicing.....
*grin*
: Charles (Chad) Mercer E-Mail: bon...@ksu.ksu.edu
Clive.
John Varlow
>Actually a guitarist I find _very_ underrated is Lanny Cordola.
>Clive.
Agreed - Lanny Cordola IMHO is the best guitarist around in CCM today. He
palys all styles from Classical to Jazz to Hard Rock (and sometimes for a bit
of a laugh incorporates all the styles in one piece). AFAIK he has two albums
out 'Electric Warrior, Acoustic Saint' and 'Of riffs and symphonies'. He has
also done a lot of guitaring for Ken Tamplin (Tamplin and friends, Magdallan
'Big Bang') as well as the second Magdelen album 'Revolution Mind'. If you
like his stuff on those albums it is worth checking out the first House of
Lords album (self titled) which has Lanny on Guitars, Chuck King on bass and
Ken Mary (another cool drummer) on drums. Some of the guitar work on this
album is very good although some of the lyrics are questionnable.
Definitely one to check out...
Later..
John 'quo vadis' Varlow
--------------------------------------------
Why do people take sigs so seriously?
____________________________________________
Daniel Temmesfeld
>From: bon...@ksu.ksu.edu (Bonehead)
>Date: 21 Nov 1994 11:18:48 -0600
>>>Ted Kirkpatrick is _incredibly_ overrated, IMHO...
>>How so? I've seen him live several times, and he just blows me away. The
>>only other drummers that I consider up there would be Mike Portnoy (of Dream
>>Theater) and Lars (of Metallica). I would put Robert Sweet up there for his
>>flashiness alone.
>Um, I've seen him live, too. And, well, yeah. He plays fast, and does weird
>stuff, but I'd like to see him play on a set that isn't larger than the
>Titanic... If he can play on a 4-piece like Jim Chaffin (ex-Crucified), I'll
>be impressed.
Still, I don't know about Jim.
>>>Try Living Sacrifice, or Precious Death, or even older Mortification...
>>...
>Living Sacrifice's drummer is _fast_. Probably the fastest drummer alive. I
>will give you that he's probably not as "creative" as Ted, but I definitely
>like his style.
Don't know, never heard them. But just because he is fast doesn't necessarily
make him a great drummer. He could be just ripping on the drums- like older
Mort.
>As for Roger from Precious Death, I would definitely suggest
>you pick up the new album, and/or see them live sometime (I just saw them
>for the third time about two weeks ago). He's got all of the style of Ted,
>without the attitude, and more passion (IMHO).
I have, and I have. I think he's a good drummer, but I still like Ted better.
I wouldn't say that he's got the same style as Ted (would Rog do a solo to a
sped-up version of Scarlatti's K517?).
>As for Jayson of Mort, he's
>really quite good at playing fast, however, he also does a lot with the
>strange patterns, etc.
I don't really like older Mort...just my opinion.
>If you're into strangeness and creativity, though, I would definitely say
>that Joey Daub of Believer has Ted destroyed, hands down. I don't think
>that _anyone_ could top Joey's intricate rhythms. (Or even really fathom
>them...)
Don't know...
>>>Ted's just got a drumset bigger than an apartment complex. If _I_ had a
>>>drumset that big...
>>I get lost trying to find the kick drum pedal... ;-)
>Well, I can't even play drums with both hands and one foot. That's why I
>stick to bass...
>>>*grin*
>>*sigh*
>What's wrong?
I wish I could play as good as Ted...
>>I just wish that Tourniquet could get any publicity close to Stryper...
>I do, too. Even though I think Ted is overrated...
>*grin*
Back up to the top and start this discussion over... ;-)
Clive
Where the heck did these Carcass lyrics come from? :) I was unaware that
this was rec.music.songs.with.bigwords.. *grin*
: >"Multifarious carnage, meretricious internecine,
: ^^ postfix -"ly"
That's correct...
: >weren't that difficult... Do you know I made a list of about 60 words I was
: >previously unfamiliar with for "Carnal forge"? Wanna learn English, gotta
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually that song isn't that bad.. some of the words on the previous album,
that I've heard once, were very unusual... I still haven't found out what
atrabilious means... I suspect a lot of the terms are medical...
: I meant "Heartwork" (the album it's on); this song being the most
: contributive.
Either this is the wrong newsgroup, or I've totally missed this discussion.
: --Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Clive.
KER...@miamiu.bitnet
d he have taught him?!
Kris
Mitchell K Dwyer
who's better, but i thought it necessary (from a it's-eight-in-the-morning-
and-i'm-completely-stressed-out-from-school perspective) to point out
that speed, loudness, or ferocity aren't the only things that make one a
great drummer. ulrich and kirkpatrick are fine musicians and very good
drummers, but i've always been more impressed with Aaron "A-Train" Smith
of the sevens.
Aaron Smith is the heart of the 77's. He manages to emote even better
than Mike Roe (whom i love, in case you guys are thinking i'm just a mike
roe anti-fan), and Mike's got all those extra tools. I'm always
impressed by a drummer who manages to communicate emotions other than
franticness, anger, excitement, or intense [fill in the blank]. the way
aaron smith makes those slow grooves cry on the 77's slower songs
(especially on the latest album) blows me away every time. aaron smith
can make me weep, and i can't honestly say that about any other drummer,
in any genre, of any religious persuasion. THAT's power...
"i feel like i wanna ride that A-Train!"
mitchell k. dwyer
mdw...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Clive
: >Where the heck did these Carcass lyrics come from? :) I was unaware that
: >this was rec.music.songs.with.bigwords.. *grin*
: This used to be rec.music.articles.with.bigwords. At least judging from some
: of Clive's (know the guy? ;-)) recent articles..
I dunno whatever you could mean Jeroen, I hope you're not attempting to
be contumely... that wouldn't be very salubrious... *grin*
: Yeah, I know that the song is a remnant of their old style. :-) But I don't
: seem to care for their earlier music... I heard "Exhume to consume" years ago,
: but I thought "what's this noise? what's this doing in a listener-chosen metal
: top 50? this is 90% distortion coding some music to indistinguishability."
: (is that a word? if so, it's eight syllables long. *grin*)
Yep it's a word. :) Carnal Forge is lyrically a remnant of their old style,
musically not so. Having heard "Necroticism: Descanting In The Insalubrious",
I can only describe it as garbage.
: You must have missed my reply to the article I posted for you... and that
: article as well, I understand?
Yep, have never seen _my_ article that you posted, or it's follow, other
than your e-mail version of course. :)
: Jeroen
Clive.
Tim Dedeaux
> Hmm.. I've heard of logical positivism, but not logical negativism. Firstly
> music is neither alone secular or christian, just music. For example, take
> Joe Satriani's "Surfing With The Alien", an incredible rock-guitar
> instrumental album, that displays an affluence of talent unparalleled
> in the genre imho. Assuming you refer to lyrics, imho, this is only
> secondary, since musical integrity should be the prime ingredient of artistic
> endeavours.
Huh? This is opinion only if I ever heard it. Musical above lyrics?
That's gotten us some *really* stupid songs (like most of 1980s's music,
or, for that matter, some Rap music "I gotta get mine so I'm taking yours"
Brilliant). Bad Lyrics can rip apart an otherwise good song or make
merely good music great. I personally, look for lyrics above music
(although thankfully, some bands, like Queen, Rush, Eagles, and Zepellin,
can mix the two).
> I usually don't find anything objectionable in lyrics, after all
> how are you supposed to understand other peoples opinions if you never
> listen to them.
After listening to some lyrics, I've come to the conclusion that some of
these peoples' opinions are as coherent and civilized as a rabid doberman,
some of them just need a little more work on lyric writing, and some of
them are truly excellent writers, but non (or even anti-) Christian.
> Generally I don't find that much positivism in christian
> music, usually enducing some kind of cataleptic condition. Also most bands
> feel an incumbence to 'preach it straight', leading to pellucid art.
There's a lot of cruddy filler in every Genre. Believe me, I like some of
every genre, and there's a lot of filler in every genre
> : For instance, as was mentioning in a thread recently, there is
> : a lyric in Queensrche's Operation: Mindcrime that goes "The blood of Christ
> : can't heal my wounds/so deep." I see that as a reinforcement that, hey,
> : I've received forgiveness for my sins and will never feel that way again!
> However this lyric is contextual, within a concept album based on a struggle.
> The character (Sister Mary) has been misused, and betrayed by her
> 'protector' Father William. It's the phoney evnagelistical slant here..
> : In any case, what I am trying to say is that your personal point of view
> : can be the deciding factor of how you take music.
> True.
> : If you listen to music
> : SPECIFICALLY to attempt to show it as non-Christian, you might just miss out
> : on not only great musical talent, but also on a bit of honey in the rock (no
> : pun intended).
> This is ludicrously ridiculous imho. Music is not non-christian, OK so bands
> like Morbid Angel, Deicide etc, go around advocating anti-christian
> sentimentism, but is due to the lyrics. Musical talent is not based upon
> an individuals personal philosophy. Only superciliousness would suggest
> that 'christian' music is better or best.
When he said music, he obviously didn't mean "instrumentation" but "the
fusion of instrumentation and lyrics known as a song." You took the cheap
shot and missed the point completely.
> : Also, don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE proponent of Christian
> : music, and personally believe Tourniquet to be one of the GREATEST metal
> : bands out there today, both lyrically and musically.
> I would agree that Tourniquet are a fabulous band, and if I had to pick one
> christian metal band to make it, it would be them. I can't help but feel,
> being stuck in christian bookstores is hindering Tourniquet's growth.
> Even 100,000 sales in the mainstream would bring considerable revenue, that
> the band could afford the luxury of taking time in the studio, perfecting
> the songs, amplification set-ups etc. In the genre of speed metal, Tourniquet
> are one of the most talented bands there is. Ted Kirkpatrick imho is the
> best drummer going, better than Lars Ulrich of Metallica. Metallica can
> sell 12 million copies, so 1/100 of that would be 120,000 which would be
> considerable for a christian metal band. However Tourniquet would need
> similar kind of exposure that Stryper once enjoyed. I like their lyrical
> allegory also.
I don't see how you could put him as better than Bill Bruford, John
Bonham, Keith Moon, or Neil Peart (although from your following comments,
I'm getting the idea).
> : I'm just saying that there are also lessons to
> : be learned from non-Christian music.
> Musicianship for one.
> : Now that I've droned on for quite a bit, what are other feelings about this?
> Lyrically I don't object to all that much. If the music is crap, then it
> wouldn't matter to me how good the lyrics were. However if the music is
> great, then I can appreciate the artistic qualities of music. I guess I'm
> hard to please lyrically. For example, I don't think Mortification write
> particularly good lyrics, although I like the music of their last 2 albums.
> I also don't think Neil Peart of Rush is particularly good. Whoever told
> him he was a philosopher has done him a great disfavour imho.
Huh? Good as a drummer or as a lyricist? I thought you said lyrics don't
matter? Anyway, listen to some of Rush's music and don't just buy into
the "Rolling Stone - MTV - Poser" attitude that Rush "sucks." Rush is one
of the wisest people in Progressive Rock today (that's right, Prog-Rock,
not Metal - Rush has never been metal, nor will they ever be metal).
Adieu
> Clive.
--
Timothy
Dedeaux "What is this illusion called the innocence of youth?
tdedeaux Maybe only in our blind belief can we ever find the truth."
@csc.mc.edu Amy Grant (1992)
Clive
> Huh? This is opinion only if I ever heard it. Musical above lyrics?
Yes, a supposition that's quite defendable imho. If the music is crap,
then it doesn't matter (to me) how good the lyrics are, because the
detrimental effect of the music reduces the appreciation for the
lyrics in the context. Better read as poetry then, imho.
> That's gotten us some *really* stupid songs (like most of 1980s's music,
> or, for that matter, some Rap music "I gotta get mine so I'm taking yours"
> Brilliant).
Bad music has gotten us some VERY lame art. For me rap isn't a good
example, since I don't consider it too musical. Ideally good music
and good lyrics would be seen in every case, but it's not... so I find
the music more artistic than lyrics, which could be read as poetry
without the naff music.
> Bad Lyrics can rip apart an otherwise good song
Quite possible, but bad music ruins the overall effect of the lyrical
expression imho.
> or make merely good music great.
??? bad lyrics?
> I personally, look for lyrics above music
*shrug*.. then imo you would be better off reading poetry and forgetting
about music...
> (although thankfully, some bands, like Queen, Rush, Eagles, and Zepellin,
> can mix the two).
You already know I don't consider Peart a great lyricist. :) The others
have had their moments, although I'm not much of a Zepplin fan.
> After listening to some lyrics, I've come to the conclusion that some of
> these peoples' opinions are as coherent and civilized as a rabid doberman,
> some of them just need a little more work on lyric writing, and some of
> them are truly excellent writers, but non (or even anti-) Christian.
I would agree with that... although I think cheesy lyrics are more
prevalent than they should be.
> There's a lot of cruddy filler in every Genre. Believe me, I like some of
> every genre, and there's a lot of filler in every genre
Yes I know... I like stuff from _most_ (but not all) genres....
> When he said music, he obviously didn't mean "instrumentation" but "the
> fusion of instrumentation and lyrics known as a song." You took the cheap
> shot and missed the point completely.
Nope, you completely missed the context of statement. It wasn't addressed
at the original poster, but at those that think certain styles or non
christian performers make it bad art. The inclusion of spiritual jargon
in musically cataleptic songs, doesn't make it 'good' (which is what I was
trying to point out)
> I don't see how you could put him as better than Bill Bruford, John
> Bonham, Keith Moon, or Neil Peart (although from your following comments,
> I'm getting the idea).
Bruford and Peart are great drummers, not overly keen on the other two.
Though I still like Kirkpatrick better... more modernistic and
individualistic imho.
> Huh? Good as a drummer or as a lyricist?
I consider him a very good drummer, I don't consider him a very good
lyricist.
> I thought you said lyrics don't matter?
Nope, I said they are less important than the actual musical expression.
> Anyway, listen to some of Rush's music and don't just buy into
> the "Rolling Stone - MTV - Poser" attitude that Rush "sucks."
I have, I own three of their albums. Some of it I like, some of it I don't.
> Rush is one of the wisest people in Progressive Rock today
I wouldn't agree with that... I don't think peart is a philosopher. That's
just my opinion though.
> (that's right, Prog-Rock, not Metal - Rush has never been metal
Did I ever claim anything to the contrary??
> (nor will they ever be metal).
Don't say _never_ :)
Clive.
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Clive <p937...@qub.ac.uk> wrote:
>Tim Dedeaux (tded...@csc.mc.edu) wrote:
[For the record: I did not quite agree with Clive's statement here, as could
be seen in last week's reply. But at least I didn't misunderstand him. :-)]
>> Huh? This is opinion only if I ever heard it. Musical above lyrics?
>
>Yes, a supposition that's quite defendable imho. If the music is crap,
>then it doesn't matter (to me) how good the lyrics are, because the
>detrimental effect of the music reduces the appreciation for the
>lyrics in the context. Better read as poetry then, imho.
I agree. Or possibly a novel. :-) Anyway, you can't cram that much interesting
stuff in a few minutes that it'd be worth listening to bad music for it.. IMO.
>> That's gotten us some *really* stupid songs (like most of 1980s's music,
>> or, for that matter, some Rap music "I gotta get mine so I'm taking yours"
>> Brilliant).
I don't quite see this claim... and the example??? I thought first of all that
rap was a way of singing, not a music style, and then I don't see how that
would place the music over the lyrics??
>example, since I don't consider it too musical. Ideally good music
>and good lyrics would be seen in every case, but it's not... so I find
>the music more artistic than lyrics, which could be read as poetry
>without the naff music.
Huh? What's unartistic about poetry? Never mind... the same formulation
problem. *grin* Actually, I do enjoy poetry, and I do not enjoy music with
bad lyrics. I care relatively little for instrumentals, BTW (save classical
music).
>> Bad Lyrics can rip apart an otherwise good song
>Quite possible, but bad music ruins the overall effect of the lyrical
>expression imho.
Agree with both.
>> or make merely good music great.
>??? bad lyrics?
Good ones, I guess. I disagree, I think. True, good lyrics do a lot for the
overall appreciation, but only with respect to what it would have been like
with different ones. Either we are talking about the _music_ and that ain't
changed by the lyrics; or of music+lyrics, and in that case the good becomes
great makes no sense, because the earlier good music+lyrics is completely
imaginary.
>> I personally, look for lyrics above music
>*shrug*.. then imo you would be better off reading poetry and forgetting
>about music...
I agree. I personally look for the best overall effect... and though I do
appreciate poetry, I don't think that belongs within the scope of this
discussion. Poetry set to bad music is actually annoying to me, so guess
what..
>> (although thankfully, some bands, like Queen, Rush, Eagles, and Zepellin,
>have had their moments, although I'm not much of a Zepplin fan.
Zeppelin? *grin* - sorry... :-)
>Yes I know... I like stuff from _most_ (but not all) genres....
I really shun rave type stuff as well..
>> When he said music, he obviously didn't mean "instrumentation" but "the
>> fusion of instrumentation and lyrics known as a song." You took the cheap
>> shot and missed the point completely.
Uhm, I said something about a difference in perspective last week, but you're
exaggerating and you _could_ have formulated slightly kinder. Seeing what Clive
replied I might even copy your paragraph back at you - if I thought there'd be
necessarily a "right" and a "wrong" side in a discussion, which I don't.
>Nope, you completely missed the context of statement. It wasn't addressed
>at the original poster, but at those that think certain styles or non
>christian performers make it bad art. The inclusion of spiritual jargon
>in musically cataleptic songs, doesn't make it 'good'
I can't help it... I still agree. *grin*
>> Huh? Good as a drummer or as a lyricist?
Uhm, does the "philosopher" tie in with drummer somehow? I don't get it..
>I consider him a very good drummer, I don't consider him a very good
>lyricist.
>> I thought you said lyrics don't matter?
>Nope, I said they are less important than the actual musical expression.
Actually, someone else wrote me a letter who thought that was what you'd said
as well... I guess it wasn't that clear..
>> (nor will they ever be metal).
>Don't say _never_ :)
"I can see that you don't really want to know
What your future holds.." *grin*
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL