Jonathan David Brown convicted
Keith Rice
don't already).
----------------------------
Taken from Dallas/Fort Worth Heritage newspaper...
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (EP) -- Long-time Christian music producer Jonathan
David Brown was convicted Aug. 20 of helping two men avoid prosecution
for a 1990 drive-by shooting of a synagogue, and of two counts of
perjury to a federal grand jury. CCM Update reported that Brown was
convicted of helping Leonard William Armstrong and Damien Patton avoid
prosecution for a drive-by shooting to which Armstrong and Patton
later pleaded guilty. Prosecutors said Brown helped paint a car used
in the shooting from white to black, provided a new license plate and
a disguise, and sent money to Patton, who was fleeing to California.
Evidence confiscated from Brown's home included signed membership
cards for the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations, and a picture of Brown
saluting a Nazi flag. Brown has produced albums for Twila Paris,
Petra, the Gaither Trio, and Bob Bennett, and recently released an
album of inspirational music.
----------------------------
--
_____________________________
__-----____--___--__-----____ D. Keith Rice
__--__--___--__--___--__--___ University of North Texas
__--___--__--_--____--___--__ Department of Computer Science
__--___--__----_____--__--___ Denton, Texas, USA
__--___--__--_--____--_--____
__--__--___--__--___--__--___ dr...@ponder.csci.unt.edu
__-----____--___--__--___--__
_____________________________
Chris Smith
>Just read this today. I figured you all would want to know (if you
>don't already).
>----------------------------
>
>Taken from Dallas/Fort Worth Heritage newspaper...
>
>NASHVILLE, Tenn. (EP) -- Long-time Christian music producer Jonathan
>David Brown was convicted Aug. 20 of helping two men avoid prosecution
>for a 1990 drive-by shooting of a synagogue, and of two counts of
>perjury to a federal grand jury. CCM Update reported that Brown was
WOW!!
>Evidence confiscated from Brown's home included signed membership
>cards for the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations, and a picture of Brown
>saluting a Nazi flag.
As an African American who likes many of the artist he has produced,
Double WOW!!
--
*********************************************************************************Chris Smith | ism...@mn.ecn.purdue.edu *
*Purdue University | ism...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu *
*School of Mechanical Engineering | fsis...@sioux.lerc.nasa.gov *
********************************************************************************
CARL SEILER
>>Evidence confiscated from Brown's home included signed membership
>>cards for the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations, and a picture of Brown
>>saluting a Nazi flag.
>
>As an African American who likes many of the artist he has produced,
>Double WOW!!
>
>
>--
what he deserves from the judges on earth as well as heaven.
Regardless, as a sheltered anglo-American, I am interested in carrying on
conversations with Christians of other etnic backgrounds. It has
been said that Sunday is the most segregated day in America, and I
wondered if you would care to share your feelings on the subject.
Carl
Carl Seiler | Department of Econonmics
Graduate Student | University of Houston
ST...@jetson.uh.edu |
Neither I nor anyone else is responsible for what I post. It may be generally
considered hogwash, nonsense, and dribble.
Tom Moellering
>don't already).
>----------------------------
>
>Taken from Dallas/Fort Worth Heritage newspaper...
>
>NASHVILLE, Tenn. (EP) -- Long-time Christian music producer Jonathan
>David Brown was convicted Aug. 20 of helping two men avoid prosecution
>for a 1990 drive-by shooting of a synagogue, and of two counts of
>perjury to a federal grand jury. CCM Update reported that Brown was
>convicted of helping Leonard William Armstrong and Damien Patton avoid
>prosecution for a drive-by shooting to which Armstrong and Patton
>later pleaded guilty. Prosecutors said Brown helped paint a car used
>in the shooting from white to black, provided a new license plate and
>a disguise, and sent money to Patton, who was fleeing to California.
>Evidence confiscated from Brown's home included signed membership
>cards for the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations, and a picture of Brown
>saluting a Nazi flag. Brown has produced albums for Twila Paris,
>Petra, the Gaither Trio, and Bob Bennett, and recently released an
>album of inspirational music.
Not to start yet another controversy, but a few thoughts:
If this were all that I had heard on this subject, I would be skeptical
as to his guilt. (anybody could've planted those things in his home
and the picture could've been doctored, too: by the KKK, Aryan Nation,
and, yes, even the US government doesn't have a perfect track record in
these kinds of circles.)
However, 3 other things in the 10/92 CCM article on this lead me to believe
otherwise:
"Brown is a follower of the Christian Identity faith which claims that the
white race, not the Jews, are the direct decendants of Abraham, Isaac,
and Jacob."
"During cross-examination, Brown calleld the Jewish holocaust of World
War II--the murder of six million Jews at the hands of the Nazis--a lie."
"As a result of a court petition from his ex-wife, Brown was ordered by a
Davidson County Probate Judge earlier this year to refrain from mentioning
his white supremacy view to his two young sons, ages 14 and nine."
Pretty sad,
Tom (moe...@convex.com)
I smear the blame on you, "Must be genetic"
You smear the blame on me, like cheap cosmetics,
We smear the blame, until we look pathetic.
Our Restless Hearts / Mark Heard / Dry Bones Dance
Roger Chaplin
: Regardless, as a sheltered anglo-American, I am interested in carrying on
:
: been said that Sunday is the most segregated day in America, and I
: wondered if you would care to share your feelings on the subject.
I would be interested in seeing such a discussion, but not in this
newsgroup. Perhaps soc.religion.christian.
--
Roger Chaplin / cha...@keinstr.uucp / CI$: 76307,3506
"For the lines are long and the fighting is strong and they're breakin'
down the distance between right and wrong."
- Bob Dylan, "Ring Them Bells"
Alan S. Mazer
>Petra, the Gaither Trio, and Bob Bennett, and recently released an
>album of inspirational music.
Brown doesn't bother me so much (I'm coming to expect things like this) but
what does this say about the artists? Wouldn't you think they'd know about
his feelings? I hope they don't agree...
--
-- Alan # Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
..!ames!elroy!alan # because breakfast is the most important meal
al...@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov # of the day.
Keith Rice
>In article <drice.718497908@ponder> dr...@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:
>>Brown has produced albums for Twila Paris,
>>Petra, the Gaither Trio, and Bob Bennett, and recently released an
>>album of inspirational music.
>Brown doesn't bother me so much (I'm coming to expect things like this) but
>what does this say about the artists? Wouldn't you think they'd know about
>his feelings? I hope they don't agree...
I doubt that any of them do, especially Bill Gaither. It he did, do you
think he would have let Larnelle Harris into the Gaither Vocal Band?
Tim Guay
>CARL SEILER (st...@elroy.uh.edu) wrote:
>: Regardless, as a sheltered anglo-American, I am interested in carrying on
>: conversations with Christians of other etnic backgrounds. It has
>:
>: been said that Sunday is the most segregated day in America, and I
>: wondered if you would care to share your feelings on the subject.
>
>I would be interested in seeing such a discussion, but not in this
>newsgroup. Perhaps soc.religion.christian.
>
an unmoderated group for this... maybe we should create an alt.christian.
For those who don't know, the moderator of soc.religion.christian does things
like embed his own unasked for commentry in other people's postings, as well
as censor postings.
===============================================================================
Ta Ta For Now | Beware of the demon Wizzy Wig, the father of
Tim | typographic lies...
===============================================================================
John R Laplante
>No, soc.religion.christian is too oppressively moderated... we really need
>an unmoderated group for this... maybe we should create an alt.christian.
>
>For those who don't know, the moderator of soc.religion.christian does things
>like embed his own unasked for commentry in other people's postings, as well
>as censor postings.
Ain't that the truth! I've submitted two posts there -- both of which
I thought were legitimate -- and both were rejected. The embedded
comments are also a nuisance.
There are some listserv groups -- IVCF-L and CHRISTIA.
I've unsubscribed from CHRISTIA -- too much traffic, and not nearly
enough "intellectual" for my tastes.
Are there other "christian" groups out there?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
john r la plante graduate student, Ohio State University
jr...@osu.edu political analysis done while you wait
Lauren L. Crawford
>In article <1992Oct9.1...@sfu.ca> gu...@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay) writes:
>>For those who don't know, the moderator of soc.religion.christian does things
>>like embed his own unasked for commentry in other people's postings, as well
>>as censor postings.
> Ain't that the truth! I've submitted two posts there -- both of which
> I thought were legitimate -- and both were rejected. The embedded
> comments are also a nuisance.
I agree. I actually wrote the moderator and told him that although his
comments were thoughtful and a good addition to the group, his habit of
inserting them into people's posts had the effect of dampening discussion
and squelching response. He replied that that is precisely what he is
trying to do, due to the large volume of traffic in the group.
Personally, I find it an oppressive degree of moderation.
> There are some listserv groups -- IVCF-L and CHRISTIA.
> I've unsubscribed from CHRISTIA -- too much traffic, and not nearly
> enough "intellectual" for my tastes.
Christia is also available as a newsgroup, which is a nice way to keep
your mailbox from filling up. It's address is bit.listserv.christia. The
response time slows down a bit when you operate this way, but that's not
always a bad thing.
--
The trick of reason is to get the imagination to seize the actual world --
if only from time to time. -- Annie Dillard, "An American Childhood"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford // craw...@ben.dev.upenn.edu
Keith Rice
>>: Regardless, as a sheltered anglo-American, I am interested in carrying on
>>: conversations with Christians of other etnic backgrounds. It has
>>:
>>: been said that Sunday is the most segregated day in America, and I
>>: wondered if you would care to share your feelings on the subject.
>>
>>I would be interested in seeing such a discussion, but not in this
>>newsgroup. Perhaps soc.religion.christian.
>>
>No, soc.religion.christian is too oppressively moderated... we really need
>an unmoderated group for this... maybe we should create an alt.christian.
>For those who don't know, the moderator of soc.religion.christian does things
>like embed his own unasked for commentry in other people's postings, as well
>as censor postings.
Creating alt.christian sounds good to me. Let's discuss it and get someone to
collect votes. (I would volunteer but I have too many other responsibilities
right now.)
John R Laplante
>I differ with both of you. Man! The guy gives up considerable time
>trying to moderate a group that (left to its own devices) swings wildly
>from extreme to extreme and instead of appreciation, gets chided
>publicly. If he doesn't read this newsgroup, would you call it
>gossip?
Fine. Disagree. Your freedom as an American, and in Christ.
I don't call it gossip -- if he wants to read this group, that's
OK with me. I'm stating my opinion that I find the group stiffling.
So I don't subscribe anymore. That's probably fine with him, too.
Granted, he probably does spend a lot of time doing it -- Id just
prefer that he doesn't.
Wayne Iba
>>I differ with both of you. Man! The guy gives up considerable time
>>trying to moderate a group that (left to its own devices) swings wildly
>>from extreme to extreme
I was thinking of responding to the earlier messages as well. I
havn't read s.r.c in a few years so I don't know if things have
changed, but when I did I felt he did an excellent job of moderating
things. The noise content of the group was very low and his included
comments were always well thought out and appropriate.
--wayne
Mark Wuest
>>For those who don't know, the moderator of soc.religion.christian does things
>>like embed his own unasked for commentry in other people's postings, as well
>>as censor postings.
> Ain't that the truth! I've submitted two posts there -- both of which
> I thought were legitimate -- and both were rejected. The embedded
> comments are also a nuisance.
I differ with both of you. Man! The guy gives up considerable time
trying to moderate a group that (left to its own devices) swings wildly
from extreme to extreme and instead of appreciation, gets chided
publicly. If he doesn't read this newsgroup, would you call it
gossip?
FWIW, I've posted to that group and had the post "rejected", too. But,
I agree with his reasons for the most part and greatly appreciate him
giving time to do something *I* don't have time (or desire) to do.
--
Mark Wuest *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mark....@att.com
m...@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)
Tim Guay
>In article <1992Oct9.1...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jlap...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John R Laplante) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct9.1...@sfu.ca> gu...@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay) writes:
>
>>>For those who don't know, the moderator of soc.religion.christian does things
>>>like embed his own unasked for commentry in other people's postings, as well
>>>as censor postings.
>
>> Ain't that the truth! I've submitted two posts there -- both of which
>> I thought were legitimate -- and both were rejected. The embedded
>> comments are also a nuisance.
>
>I differ with both of you. Man! The guy gives up considerable time
>trying to moderate a group that (left to its own devices) swings wildly
>from extreme to extreme and instead of appreciation, gets chided
>publicly. If he doesn't read this newsgroup, would you call it
>gossip?
However, Usenet should be a free and open forum where any opinion on
the subject NO MATTER HOW EXTREEN should be allowed. I DON'T APPRECIATE
CENSORSHIP!!!! IMAO Usenet groups don't need moderators! That's what
mailing lists are for! Maybe you should try living in a country where
the authorities moderate public discourse in order to prevent 'extreems'.
I did for awhile, and I can assure you that was not appreciated!
Both our countries(USA and Canada) were founded on the premise that free
and open speech is healthy and should be encouraged! And I fully agree
with that premise, I may not agree with you but I fully support your
right to express your opinion. To think otherwise is being a communist
or fascist! Thus we do not need Big Brother moderating rec.religion.christian.
For public discourse on Christianity (on the net) can only be impoverished.
Phil Powell
>In article <drice.718497908@ponder> dr...@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice) writes:
>>Brown has produced albums for Twila Paris,
>>Petra, the Gaither Trio, and Bob Bennett, and recently released an
>>album of inspirational music.
>
>Brown doesn't bother me so much (I'm coming to expect things like this) but
>what does this say about the artists? Wouldn't you think they'd know about
>his feelings? I hope they don't agree...
>--
I doubt they even knew what was going on.. people can hide their true
feelings about others real well... it probably would've surfaced if they
asked him if he would produce an album by Larnelle Harris, Al Green or
Deniece Williams...
>
>-- Alan # Mountain Dew and doughnuts...
> ..!ames!elroy!alan # because breakfast is the most important meal
> al...@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov # of the day.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
AMEN! :-)
Phil
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Jaime Retief, IV
It could be depressing, but...
I really feel like God's cleaning house. Too
much has gone on for too long, and He's dealing
with it. It looks like a blow for Christianity
on the surface, but it's only a blow to hypocrisy
or to totally misguided people.
I'm always sad to hear this sort of thing, but
if people are gonna do this sort of thing, I
want them out.
I'm glad most of the recent major exposes, such
as Mike Warnke have come from within the church;
we don't have a lot of integrity left with the
world. Better we should clean house than let
them do it.
Enough with the soapbox. I probably should
have first asked if this guy was a Christian
or just a hot producer, huh?
Well?
-Miles
Ted Krueger
>In article <Bvs1x...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, ism...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Chris Smith) writes...
>>>Evidence confiscated from Brown's home included signed membership
>>>cards for the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations, and a picture of Brown
>>>saluting a Nazi flag.
>>
>>As an African American who likes many of the artist he has produced,
>>Double WOW!!
>>
>>
>>--
>I WOW'd this post too. I hope justice is served and this guy gets
>what he deserves from the judges on earth as well as heaven.
>
>Regardless, as a sheltered anglo-American, I am interested in carrying on
>conversations with Christians of other etnic backgrounds. It has
>
>been said that Sunday is the most segregated day in America, and I
>wondered if you would care to share your feelings on the subject.
>
heritage for most of my life ;) and the last church that I was a member
of was about 80% hispanic. I have also been a member of a church that
was 40% black 30% hispanic.
Perhaps the statement you repeated is an urban myth?
Ted
--
"How dare you call us [people] `you people'!"
-Benjamin Hooks
clopt...@iscsvax.uni.edu
> In article <7OCT1992...@elroy.uh.edu> st...@elroy.uh.edu (CARL SEILER) writes:
>>In article <Bvs1x...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, ism...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Chris Smith) writes...
>>>>Evidence confiscated from Brown's home included signed membership
>>>>cards for the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nations, and a picture of Brown
>>>>saluting a Nazi flag.
>>>
>>>As an African American who likes many of the artist he has produced,
>>>Double WOW!!
>>been said that Sunday is the most segregated day in America, and I
>>wondered if you would care to share your feelings on the subject.
>>
> I don't know who said this, but I have been a white-male-of-european
> heritage for most of my life ;) and the last church that I was a member
> of was about 80% hispanic. I have also been a member of a church that
> was 40% black 30% hispanic.
>
> Perhaps the statement you repeated is an urban myth?
But look at that you said---80% Hispanic! I admit that 40%black and 30%hispanic
is impressive, but I also bet it is the big exception.
I live in an area that has a large, fairly poor black community surrounded by a
white community. Here churches are pretty white, or pretty black. Here it is
true. My church is mostly white. So white that no matter what are personal
attitudes are, nonwhites are going to be very aware of our whitness.
The fact of the matter is that people are more at home cultural
surroundings they are familiar with. Compounded by centuries of racism and
economic separation--which leads to even less mutual understanding, and you
shouldn't expect anthing but two (or more) separate cultures,a dn two separate
churches. Each with their own traditions and their own music.
I knew I could do it! I brought this thread back to music!
Check out the difference between "Southern Gospel" (white Cracker
music) and "Black Gospel" (being white myself, I'll leave this alone). They
are as different as night and day (no pun intended). Their difference is a
testament to the separatin of the white church and the black church.
We can all get along. But I'm not so sure that we will.
Noel Estabrook
>> I thought were legitimate -- and both were rejected. The embedded
>> comments are also a nuisance.
>
>I differ with both of you. Man! The guy gives up considerable time
>trying to moderate a group that (left to its own devices) swings wildly
>from extreme to extreme and instead of appreciation, gets chided
>publicly. If he doesn't read this newsgroup, would you call it
>gossip?
>
>FWIW, I've posted to that group and had the post "rejected", too. But,
Well, maybe I'm even different yet. I tried posting to s.r.c. myself
and only succeeded in getting only 2 out of 10 posts submitted. Not
only were 8 not submitted, but I never even got a reason or E-mail as
to why. After finally deciding that it was because I am very conservative,
I wrote clh (moderator) a note asking for some sort of explanation as to
why I wasn't getting posted. Well, 2 months later, and still no reply...
Noel Estabrook | If somebody publishes an article in a really
no...@crs.cl.msu.edu __|__ obscure research journal and nobody reads it,
Educational Technology | does it really exist? - IgNobel Prizes
Michigan State Univ. | Romans 12:2
--
Noel Estabrook | If somebody publishes an article in a really
no...@crs.cl.msu.edu __|__ obscure research journal and nobody reads it,
Educational Technology | does it really exist? - IgNobel Prizes
Michigan State Univ. | Romans 12:2
Ted Krueger
I agree with this post wholeheartedly.
--
Shawn E Chase
I also agree. I, too, am a victim of the moderator's added comments,etc, which effectively take away from the impact of my posts. I did get a reply from him once, saying he allowed about 20 posts a day, and made it sound like he receives on the neighborhood of 50 or 60 a day..Shyaaa right!!! It's not like it's .Christia or anything like that!!!
--
Shawn E. Chase "For the eyes of the Lord range throughout
Sup...@Matt.KSU.Edu the earth to strengthen those whose hearts
Dept of Industrial Engg. are fully committed to Him" 2chron16:9
"No sir, I didnt like it"- Mr. Horse
Jeremy Gibbons
>an unmoderated group for this... maybe we should create an alt.christian.
>
>For those who don't know, the moderator of soc.religion.christian does things
>like embed his own unasked for commentry in other people's postings, as well
>as censor postings.
I know this is getting somewhat off the subject of music, but I had to
follow up. We need a moderated group for the dicussion of Christianity,
because the readers (even us Christians---is that a good witness, or what?)
would degenerate into flames without moderation. Chuck Hedrick does a great
job of moderating s.r.c.
If you want an unmoderated newsgroup to post to, there's Practical
Christian Living, bit.listserv.christia (also available as a listserv
mailing list), so don't create a new one.
Finally, clh's editorial comments are appended, not embedded, and of course
a moderated newsgroup will reject some postings!
Jeremy
---
Jeremy Gibbons <jer...@cs.aukuni.ac.nz> tel: +64 9 373 7599
Department of Computer Science, fax: +64 9 373 7453
University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand.
John R Laplante
>>No, soc.religion.christian is too oppressively moderated... we really need
If the group is too large for you to read in a day, I suggest that
using a threaded news reader is a better tool than having a moderating.