secular...Christian...bah.
Douglas C Pearson
still a statement worth repeating. it went something along the lines of,
"is it still okay to just be a struggling Christian with a guitar? i hope so."
the more i look at this whole secular band/Christian band/half-secular, half-
Christian crap, the more convinced i become that that's all it is...crap.
the people out on the left wing have their own gods...sex, money, government
programs, the environment, women's rights, gay rights, etc., etc., etc. well,
if you haven't noticed, those people on the right wing have their very own gods
that they bow to, and no, they're not the God of the Bible, like they claim.
the gods are virtue, purity, wholesomeness, and family values. if you don't
have them, you need not apply.
you say, "wait a second! hold on! i thought virtue and purity and
wholesomeness and family values were good things!" yes, they are, but they're
not gods. and those who the media take to task as "the Christian right" leave
themselves open to that ridicule for precisely that reason.
need evidence? why isn't the band vigilantes of love widely accepted within
the Christian media? i'll just pick a song off their first album, "driving the
nails," and pull out a lyric...
i've been driving the nails firmly in Your tree
You've been talking to Your Father on behalf of me
nothing at these checkpoints i care to defend
so why do i raise the hammer up and drive the nails in?
now, clearly this is a theologically correct reference to the crucifixion, and
its meaning in the life of the Christian...when i sin, what i do is something
that Christ died for...in effect, i am participating in the crucifixion of
Christ. and yet Christ still takes our case in front of the Father and asks
for our forgiveness on our behalf. so what's wrong with that?
what's wrong, the reason bill mallonee and the vigilantes of love will never be
accepted by the Christian media at large, is because bill mallonee is so frank
about his fallenness:
and in the graveyard of my secrets there's a hope buried beneath
all this talk of peace and righteousness has left me weary beyond belief
and there's this unwanted mistress in my bed late at night
she says, "i know you're a criminal, you've been on death row all your
life"
(lyrics from "driving the nails" by bill mallonee.)
this kind of person is not an acceptable role model for Christian young people,
you understand. even though he is aware of the sin in his life, even though he
really doesn't want it there, the sin is there, and therefore that negates
anything good and true he might say.
is that really a good and acceptable argument, in the eyes of Christ? wasn't
it paul the apostle who rebuked those who wanted him to shut up a preacher
across town who was saying stuff that they didn't agree with? didn't he say
that the important thing was that Christ was being preached?
this isn't the only artist who such an argument can be made about. you can say
the same thing about king's x, who sings about Christ quite clearly in their
music:
perfect peace, mountains robed with glory
coming into view
Father speaks, Son becomes the story
essence of all truth
(lyrics from "out of the silent planet" from the album _gretchen_goes_
_to_nebraska_, by doug pinnick, jerry gaskill, ty tabor, and sam taylor)
who are these people behind the stained glass windows?
have they forgotten just what they came here for?
was it salvation? or scared-of-hell?
or an assembly of a social get-together?
(lyrics from "mission". same album, same authors.)
but king's x gets dissed. why? because they use profanity in their concerts.
again, not a very spiritually healthy thing to do...yet this is cause to throw
out everything the band says or does as "not spiritually uplifting.)
need more evidence? look at what the Christian community did to one of its
own. remember the michael english saga? very popular singer, sells tons of
albums, recognized by the CCM industry as a great singer at what he does and
loaded down with tons of those "dove award" things. it's revealed that he's
going to be a daddy, and the person who is having the kid is not his wife.
again, bad news. michael english products disappear from Christian bookstores
within the week. radio stations refuse to play his songs. and the message?
well, the message is simple. "if you are not whole, pure, sinless, and all
that, anything you say is meaningless to the Christian in his walk with God."
THIS IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. the Lord and Saviour of us all is _not_ our purity.
if it is, then why was Jesus all over the pharisees? they were good and pure
and had solid family values...the Christian right today would love them. and
yet Jesus was all over their cases.
why? could it be that they worshipped the law, instead of the Lawgiver? could
it be that they failed to recognize Christ as who he is?
brothers and sisters, consider yourselves challenged.
chuck
--
"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program -- bio113 teaching assistant at large -- married 1 year!
andimamazedandirememberWhoitwasthatbuiltthishouseandwiththerocksicryoutrmullins
Reuben A. Rubio II
from a Circle K while the attendant is otherwise occupied - in other words,
it is not a one-time "overcome by the flesh like all of us have had happen
to us" sort of thing. It is a chain of sinful thoughts and behaviors; an
ongoing (time-dependent) violation of a sacred trust between you and God,
and between you and your spouse, and (if applicable) between you and your
children. It is a big deal.
If Michael English were to apologize to his wife and family (we're talking
serious public, because the sin itself is public), offer to support the
child, etc., and remain faithful, then there would be ample reason for his
stuff to appear in the CCM press again. Christians are to forgive and
forget. If they don't forgive and forget at this point, then you are quite
correct to point out the hypocrisy in their behavior. If Mr. English has
not done what is stated above (which is basically gleaned from very
recognizable scripture regarding sin, repentance, and Christian living),
then the CCM industry (imho) should continue to keep his stuff out.
The message: if you're gonna talk the talk, you'd better also walk the walk
(aka James 1:21-26). The #1 problem I see in Christians around me is that
some talk the talk, but fewer walk the walk, and fewer still have enough
love in their hearts to actually discuss sin with someone engaged in it.
Mr. English has an excellent voice, and could undoubtedly cash in big on
the secular market without anybody caring what he does with whom, when.
Appearing in the CCM media is not a guarenteed right of the Kingdom of
Heaven.
Tom Senor
dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Douglas C Pearson) wrote:
[lots of great stuff from two posts deleted.]
> --
> "clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr --
********
Seems to me that this nickname is inappropriate. May I humbly suggest
"insightful chuck" as a replacement?
--
Tom Senor
University of Arkansas
se...@comp.uark.edu
Opinions expressed are entirely my own and do not represent those of the
UA.
-Andy Whitman
Douglas C Pearson <dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> goes into sermon
mode and writes:
(concerning the "gods" of purity, wholesomeness, etc.)
I'm not sure if it's a case of Bill Mallonee being ignored by the
Christian media or Bill Mallonee consciously trying to distance himself
from the Christian media, but in any event you've pinpointed the very
reason why I find Bill Mallonee's lyrics so refreshing.
There may be people out there who have largely overcome sin in their
lives. And there may be people who truly experience God's joy on a
daily, moment-by-moment basis. That's wonderful. I'm not one of them.
Most days it's a struggle. Sometimes I experience God's presence in
my life; sometimes I don't. Sometimes I truly desire to live obediently;
sometimes I struggle not to blow it off and just live the way that
I want to live. Some days I honestly believe that nothing in the
world could shake me in my love for God; other days I feel like
I'm holding on to the ledge with just the tips of my fingers, and
that I could fall at any second.
If you can't relate to those kinds of experiences then you probably
won't relate to the music that VoL makes. If you don't see and
acknowledge the allure of the world, and the deadly pull it has
on our lives, then you won't get the music either. But I'll admit
that I feel something of a kinship with Mr. Mallonee, and with
Mark Heard, because they express the things that I feel and
experience far better than I could ever express them.
Naturally these people can't be role models. Role models aren't
allowed to be human, especially Christian role models. Wouldn't
want to spoil the image by showing a little common sinful humanity.
Besides, these people have ministries. What would the faithful
think if a minister admitted sin in his/her own life? And so
the grand charade must continue, with the ministers unable to be
themselves and with the faithful convinced that the mask is the
real face. Until somebody rips off the mask.
>michael english products disappear from Christian bookstores
>within the week. radio stations refuse to play his songs. and the message?
>
>well, the message is simple. "if you are not whole, pure, sinless, and all
>that, anything you say is meaningless to the Christian in his walk with God."
>
>THIS IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. the Lord and Saviour of us all is _not_ our purity.
>if it is, then why was Jesus all over the pharisees? they were good and pure
>and had solid family values...the Christian right today would love them. and
>yet Jesus was all over their cases.
>
>why? could it be that they worshipped the law, instead of the Lawgiver? could
>it be that they failed to recognize Christ as who he is?
It's the collision of two very different mindsets, is what it is. It's
the CCM ministry model/preach the gospel with guitars proponents
running smack into fallen people living in a fallen world. The
collision offers two choices: you can judge, or you can forgive.
Guess which one is winning in the CCM world?
>chuck
>--
>"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>osu biophysics program -- bio113 teaching assistant at large -- married 1 year!
>andimamazedandirememberWhoitwasthatbuiltthishouseandwiththerocksicryoutrmullins
Andy Whitman
AT&T Network Systems
Columbus, Ohio
a...@cblph.att.com
Douglas C Pearson
>Seems to me that this nickname is inappropriate. May I humbly suggest
>"insightful chuck" as a replacement?
no, sorry tom. i'm still clueless about a ton of things. like why i'm no
closer to God than i was three months ago, for example. i may seem all great
and insightful, but it all has to come from Christ.
besides, "insightful chuck" doesn't flow nearly as well. 8-)
still clueless chuck
Douglas C Pearson
andy, by the grace of God and His grace alone, you took my muddled mess of
thoughts and made it all the more clear. thanks, bro. i appreciate it.
thanks, God. i _really_ needed the help with that one...
Douglas C Pearson
i think there's a lot that's seriously wrong with what you said in this post,
but i'm going to try to address it in as loving a manner as humanly possible.
if i fail in that, please forgive me.
Reuben A. Rubio II <rar...@umich.edu> wrote:
>Folks, an adulterous affair is not the same thing as grabbing a candy bar
>from a Circle K while the attendant is otherwise occupied - in other words,
>it is not a one-time "overcome by the flesh like all of us have had happen
>to us" sort of thing. It is a chain of sinful thoughts and behaviors; an
>ongoing (time-dependent) violation of a sacred trust between you and God,
>and between you and your spouse, and (if applicable) between you and your
>children. It is a big deal.
sure, it's a big deal. but grabbing a candy bar from a circle-k while the
attendant is otherwise occupied is a big deal, too. sin is a big deal, period.
it's a rift between the sinner and God, not to mention the sinner and his/her
fellow humans.
the issue i'm addressing is not whether or not michael english did anything
wrong. there's no question that he did. it is what our response to the public
acknowledgement, admission, and, if i'm not mistaken, request for forgiveness
by michael english should be. specifically, do we judge the truthfulness of
what michael says and sings based on his actions? i'll submit that we should
not, and it's a VERY dangerous thing if we do.
because if michael english's albums have no uplifting spiritual value simply
because he has committed adultery, then NO ALBUM EVER RECORDED BY ANYBODY HAS
ANY SPIRITUAL VALUE - because EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE RECORDING INDUSTRY
HAS BROKEN GOD'S HEART IN THE SAME WAY MICHAEL ENGLISH BROKE GOD'S HEART.
if you didn't get what i said above, don't go on in this post until you do.
it's a very important statement...all the morality policing of every Christian
artist is absolutely meaningless. if you're going to yank one album off the
Christian bookstore shelves, you had better yank them all.
>If Michael English were to apologize to his wife and family (we're talking
>serious public, because the sin itself is public), offer to support the
>child, etc., and remain faithful, then there would be ample reason for his
>stuff to appear in the CCM press again. Christians are to forgive and
>forget. If they don't forgive and forget at this point, then you are quite
>correct to point out the hypocrisy in their behavior. If Mr. English has
>not done what is stated above (which is basically gleaned from very
>recognizable scripture regarding sin, repentance, and Christian living),
>then the CCM industry (imho) should continue to keep his stuff out.
somebody said earlier that you're confusing the church with a business, which
is absolutely correct. besides, i believe all the provisions you have
mentioned above have taken place, and you won't have to worry about michael
having to support the child, because marabeth jordan miscarried the child soon
after all this came to a head, in God showing incredible mercy to the child.
so those points are absolutely moot.
>The message: if you're gonna talk the talk, you'd better also walk the walk
>(aka James 1:21-26). The #1 problem I see in Christians around me is that
>some talk the talk, but fewer walk the walk, and fewer still have enough
>love in their hearts to actually discuss sin with someone engaged in it.
>Mr. English has an excellent voice, and could undoubtedly cash in big on
>the secular market without anybody caring what he does with whom, when.
>Appearing in the CCM media is not a guarenteed right of the Kingdom of
>Heaven.
sure. i don't think anybody will argue with you that there are believers
"have a form of godliness, but deny its power," as the Word says. but, as i
said originally, here's your question: is integrity and wholesomeness your
god, or is God your god? does a man's confessed sinfulness get in the way
of your ability to see God using them nonetheless?
again, it's a matter of either judging somebody or unconditionally forgiving
somebody, and we as Christians are called on to unconditionally forgive.
Thiek
I'll drink to that!!!
Steve Mooradian
|> from a Circle K while the attendant is otherwise occupied - in other words,
|> it is not a one-time "overcome by the flesh like all of us have had happen
[hypocrisy deleted....]
|> the secular market without anybody caring what he does with whom, when.
|> Appearing in the CCM media is not a guarenteed right of the Kingdom of
|> Heaven.
Flee from me, clown! You are no less of a sinner than David Koresh,
let alone Mike English.... so grow up or shut up!
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
-From this book called the Bible...
...if anybody still reads that....
--
*****************************************************************************
STEPHEN MOORADIAN ----- Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute ----- moo...@rpi.edu
*****************************************************************************
Michael Straight
Reuben A. Rubio II <rar...@umich.edu> wrote:
[theologically shaky stuff about how adultery is worse than shoplifting
deleted]
>If Michael English were to apologize to his wife and family (we're talking
>serious public, because the sin itself is public), offer to support the
>child, etc., and remain faithful, then there would be ample reason for his
>stuff to appear in the CCM press again. Christians are to forgive and
>forget. If they don't forgive and forget at this point, then you are quite
>correct to point out the hypocrisy in their behavior. If Mr. English has
>not done what is stated above (which is basically gleaned from very
>recognizable scripture regarding sin, repentance, and Christian living),
>then the CCM industry (imho) should continue to keep his stuff out.
>
Um, aren't you confusing the CCM industry with the church? As far as I
can tell, Mr. English's music was no less uplifting and glorifying to God
because he sinned. If the music is good, why shouldn't people listen to it?
Exactly how perfect do I have to be to record "Christian" music?
Assuming I haven't crossed that line, and I put out an album that is
edifying to the body of Christ, and afterwards I commit a sin that
"disqualifies" me from CCM, does my album somehow become, retroactively,
no longer edifying to the body of Christ?
"Everybody knows a little bit of something." - King's X /~\/~\
Michael Straight I'm not a guitar, 88======()==D
40mst...@sophia.sph.unc.edu but I play one at church. \_/\_/
David Barro Buzzy Bellew
*****************
Thanks, everybody, for your responses to the call for discussion. In
short, I misstated myself on a few occasions, when talking about the whole
thing. I'm taking it from a completely different perspective, in answer
to being called "naive". My approach to the entire thing was the approach
that our good, wise and righteous friend Keith Green had (before he died,
of course) when someone came up to him once and said something like:
"... God has really been using you and your music to reach
out to people! ..."
ya know what Mr. Green's response was? (K. Green had been ***VERY***
successful in terms of winning people over to Christ)
He said something like:
"... I don't believe you. If you wanna really be used by
God, become a missionary!..."
Folks, the first thing I think of is doing God's will... I've really
been struggling a lot lately, and for some reason, I always want to think
of what the motive of the musician is (especially when I'm NOT listening).
I really don't know why... but my general belief is just that if they're
really Christians seeking to do God's will *first*, then God would lead
them, probably in other areas than music. But above all, it's certainly
NOT for me to judge the "state" of their Christianity, and that's how I
may have come off when I made my original posts.. I don't like to be
thought of as one who causes dissention among the crowd, making miserable
posts which would certainly pressure non-Christians to whip out the flame-
throwers.. :( But in any case, I just seem to take a different, more
sensitive approach.
I apologize to everyone for misstating myself, if they thought I was
some sort of *legalist*, or kinda a "killjoy"... I'm really not-- or else
I wouldn't spend my time listening to The Crucified, or Vengeance Rising..
(ON OCCASION)... My REAL music taste lies mainly in the Progressive domain,
because of my "higher standard" of good musicianship.. I REALLY REALLY like
Dream Theater, as I said before, :) and I like others such as Veni Domine,
Fates Warning, and Echolyn (Hey -- if they really are Christians, then that's
great! It was just unusual, knowing members of the guitarist's family).
But as much as I want to listen to the styles of music that please me the
most, I also just want to question how listening to such music helps me
spiritually...
Any further input?
David Barro, someone without an appropriate sig file... :)
dab...@psuvm.psu.edu
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
In article <rarubio-15...@via.ice1.merit.edu>,
Reuben A. Rubio II <rar...@umich.edu> wrote:
>Folks, an adulterous affair is not the same thing as grabbing a candy bar
>from a Circle K while the attendant is otherwise occupied - in other words,
>it is not a one-time "overcome by the flesh like all of us have had happen
>to us" sort of thing. It is a chain of sinful thoughts and behaviors; an
Rhetorics? Holier-than-thou?
>If Michael English were to apologize to his wife and family (we're talking
^^
>serious public, because the sin itself is public), offer to support the
>child, etc., and remain faithful, then there would be ample reason for his
^^^^
>stuff to appear in the CCM press again. Christians are to forgive and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>forget. If they don't forgive and forget at this point, then you are quite
^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>correct to point out the hypocrisy in their behavior. If Mr. English has
>not done what is stated above (which is basically gleaned from very
>recognizable scripture regarding sin, repentance, and Christian living),
>then the CCM industry (imho) should continue to keep his stuff out.
Talking about hypocrisy... we _should_ forgive and forget, _but first_...
>The message: if you're gonna talk the talk, you'd better also walk the walk
>(aka James 1:21-26).
(1) I hate sloganeering
(2) This is not a good paraphrase of the passage in question which merely says
that it's easy to talk cheap, but meaningless. There's no _if_ to your
clause of "doing right", nor any support for making any claims. And IMO the
self-righteousness is dripping from this note in its entirety. I don't know
why this seems to correlate so strongly with references to [the quite small
epistle of] James.
> The #1 problem I see in Christians around me is that
>some talk the talk, but fewer walk the walk, and fewer still have enough
>love in their hearts to actually discuss sin with someone engaged in it.
The #1 problem is that you can't tell who is a Christian from their _talk_.
Maybe some don't sound overtly Christian, but are??
>Mr. English has an excellent voice, and could undoubtedly cash in big on
>the secular market without anybody caring what he does with whom, when.
What's the purpose of stabbing at ME this way?
>Appearing in the CCM media is not a guarenteed right of the Kingdom of
>Heaven.
Well, I guess you got _that_ one right.
--
--Jeroen-----------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@StHP.WI.LeidenUniv.NL
bon...@ksu.ksu.edu
[lots of excellent examples of bands getting dissed by "Christians" deleted]
>need more evidence? look at what the Christian community did to one of its
>own. remember the michael english saga? very popular singer, sells tons of
>albums, recognized by the CCM industry as a great singer at what he does and
>loaded down with tons of those "dove award" things. it's revealed that he's
>going to be a daddy, and the person who is having the kid is not his wife.
>again, bad news. michael english products disappear from Christian bookstores
>within the week. radio stations refuse to play his songs. and the message?
>well, the message is simple. "if you are not whole, pure, sinless, and all
>that, anything you say is meaningless to the Christian in his walk with God."
Yup. That's exactly right, sir. The church is full of "purity", but it's
hard to walk into a church service and find any love at all. What is it that
Paul says? Something about "the greatest of these is love"? And that if
something is done without love, it's worthless?
>THIS IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. the Lord and Saviour of us all is _not_ our purity.
>if it is, then why was Jesus all over the pharisees? they were good and pure
>and had solid family values...the Christian right today would love them. and
>yet Jesus was all over their cases.
Yup. Called them a "brood of vipers". But if you say _that_ to hypocritical
church leaders, you'll get kicked out of the church...
>why? could it be that they worshipped the law, instead of the Lawgiver? could
>it be that they failed to recognize Christ as who he is?
Again, yup. Sounds like a problem to me.
>brothers and sisters, consider yourselves challenged.
Thanks for the reminder, bud. (Are you related to Matrix? *grin*)
Chad
--
Charles (Chad) Mercer aka thak E-Mail: bon...@ksu.ksu.edu
Student of Bil Brown and Steve Rowe, the masters of the bass guitar
System Analyst, Citation Marketing Network Systems, Cessna Aircraft
Consultant, Computing and Network Services, Kansas State University
Michael Straight
Crucifixion) and turn it into something good, God can speak to you and
move you through _any_ music, regardless of the intent of the composer or
musicians.
Now I'm not claiming that God speaks regularly through, say, Aerosmith's
music, but that the question of "should you listen to x" should depend on
what you are getting out of the music, not who sang it.
Edifying music is edifying no matter who wrote it.
Good music gives glory to the Giver of all musicianship no matter who
makes it.
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Douglas C Pearson <dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>the more i look at this whole secular band/Christian band/half-secular, half-
>Christian crap, the more convinced i become that that's all it is...crap.
Yep. What matters is how it effects us.
>what's wrong, the reason bill mallonee and the vigilantes of love will never
>be accepted by the Christian media at large, is because bill mallonee is so
>frank about his fallenness: [...]
>this kind of person is not an acceptable role model for Christian young
>people you understand. even though he is aware of the sin in his life, even
>though he really doesn't want it there, the sin is there, and therefore that
>negates anything good and true he might say.
>
>is that really a good and acceptable argument, in the eyes of Christ? wasn't
>it paul the apostle who rebuked those who wanted him to shut up a preacher
>across town who was saying stuff that they didn't agree with? didn't he say
>that the important thing was that Christ was being preached?
The argument is obviously as fallacious as can be. Paul said a lot of those
things... e.g. I Cor 3 or Philippians 1. Paul also said that we all sin, so...
how would pretending otherwise be anything but hypocrisy?
[...reaction to Michael English event...]
>well, the message is simple. "if you are not whole, pure, sinless, and all
>that, anything you say is meaningless to the Christian in his walk with God."
>
>THIS IS NOT CHRISTIANITY. the Lord and Saviour of us all is _not_ our purity.
Indeed!
[the pharisees]
>why? could it be that they worshipped the law, instead of the Lawgiver? could
>it be that they failed to recognize Christ as who he is?
Could it be anything else? Matt 23:[2] Saying, The scribes and Pharisees sit in
Moses' seat: [3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe
and do; but do not ye after their works, for they say and do not. [5] But all
their works they do for to be seen of men {...} [28] Even so ye [=Pharisees]
outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and
iniquity. John 12:[41] These things said E-sa'-ias, when he saw his glory, and
spake of him. [42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on
him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should
be pout out of the synagogue: [43] For they loved the praise of men more than
the praise of God.
--
--Jeroen-----------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@StHP.WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Douglas C Pearson
>>well, the message is simple. "if you are not whole, pure, sinless, and all
>>that, anything you say is meaningless to the Christian in his walk with God."
>
>hard to walk into a church service and find any love at all. What is it that
>Paul says? Something about "the greatest of these is love"? And that if
>something is done without love, it's worthless?
now, be careful (and, as i type this, i realize i may have been a bit
judgemental myself in some of the things i said) because we don't want to
dismiss the church in america as a whole as being without love. most people
out there are honestly trying to follow Christ in all that they do, and we
shouldn't be trying to assert that thay aren't.
that being said, in some places where i've been, yes, chad, i see exactly what
you see.
>[...]
>Thanks for the reminder, bud. (Are you related to Matrix? *grin*)
sheesh, i dunno. matrix, are we related? 8-)
Jon Madison
Christ? we're all wrong; let God be true & everyman a liar,
including ME!!
(btw, chuck, some points made. :)
--
jon madison
<A href="http://neuromancer.ucr.edu/~jonboy">ClickHere</a>
jsi...@delphi.com
My role model is Jesus Christ not a performer.
And on the candybar / adultery comparision. A sins a sins is it not?
8->
Dale Schouten
>could we quit bickering like theologans and get to listening to
>Christ?
What do you think the theologians are trying to do?
Dale Schouten
scho...@uiuc.edu
Clive
This is my third response to one of your posts... :)
: "... God has really been using you and your music to reach
: out to people! ..."
: ya know what Mr. Green's response was? (K. Green had been ***VERY***
: successful in terms of winning people over to Christ)
: He said something like:
: "... I don't believe you. If you wanna really be used by
: God, become a missionary!..."
A friend of mine likes Keith Green, and she sent me this tract, but to me
Keith Green seemed very hung up on people becoming ministers... there was
a lot of scriptural references [some of it out of context IMO]... it was
made to look [I doubt he meant this but..] that the only way to be used
by God was to go "out to the frontline" and be a missionary... perhaps
misguided enthusiasm... we are told [James 3 I think..] that we should
not assume that we are to be teachers, for those who do are judged more
harshly [OK OK.. Bad paraphrase... *grin*]
: But above all, it's certainly
: NOT for me to judge the "state" of their Christianity, and that's how I
: may have come off when I made my original posts..
No not really... trying to see past your muddled confusion [sorry *grin*]
I didn't get this... it looked like you wanted the lyrics to be a test
of their christianity... like I've said, there are more ways than one
of protraying truth....
: I apologize to everyone for misstating myself, if they thought I was
: some sort of *legalist*, or kinda a "killjoy"... I'm really not-- or else
: I wouldn't spend my time listening to The Crucified, or Vengeance Rising..
: (ON OCCASION)...
Ah... I think I get where your lyrical stance comes from now.... *grin*
But how can a self-respecting progressive fan listen to VR!!! ;) ;) :)
: My REAL music taste lies mainly in the Progressive domain,
: because of my "higher standard" of good musicianship..
Me too... :)
: I REALLY REALLY like Dream Theater, as I said before, :)
Me too!! :)
: and I like others such as Veni Domine, Fates Warning
Wow!, Me too! :)
: and Echolyn (Hey -- if they really are Christians, then that's
: great! It was just unusual, knowing members of the guitarist's family).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can't judge a man by his family....
: But as much as I want to listen to the styles of music that please me the
: most, I also just want to question how listening to such music helps me
: spiritually...
: Any further input?
Hmm.. hard one that... I've often found spiritual messages in "secular"
music, and/or some truth, or a well made statement... also something
like Fates Warnings "Parallels" is about relationships... some of these
could easily be applied to a christian and God. Sometimes life is hard,
it can suck, we all struggle, it can be unfair, but we all should have
hope, and I like music to reflect that.... the new Queensryche album
sounds like it's gonna be a cracker... it addresses the issue of
"What is success" and "Is it really important"... despite the gloomy
and dark impressions, there's a positive message...
: David Barro, someone without an appropriate sig file... :)
This is a record.... Me too!!! :)
Clive.
Clive
: If God can take the most evil act humanity has ever committed (i.e. the
: Crucifixion) and turn it into something good, God can speak to you and
: move you through _any_ music, regardless of the intent of the composer or
: musicians.
Right.
: Now I'm not claiming that God speaks regularly through, say, Aerosmith's
: music, but that the question of "should you listen to x" should depend on
: what you are getting out of the music, not who sang it.
Right again.
: Edifying music is edifying no matter who wrote it.
: Good music gives glory to the Giver of all musicianship no matter who
: makes it.
Three out of three.... A+ Michael... :)
: Michael Straight I'm not a guitar, 88======()==D
Clive.
Peter David THOMPSON
any arguments if anybody wanted to say ''Keith, it looks like you were pretty
confused.'' I'd say ''Yes.'' Or, ''It looks like you were immature.'' I'd say
''Yeah, you are right.'' I have no bones to pick about that.
I'm just about 5 years old in the Lord and I'm just beginning to
learn how to understand His will and hear His voice...."
"I could show all kinds of things wrong with the gospel music industry, but
I could also sit there, very honestly, while people showed me lots of things
wrong with me. But I hung up my fish and I hung up my dove and said, ''I don't
want to be a 'professional' Christian. I just want to be a simple Christian..."
Keith Green, in excerpts from the March 1980 interview with John W. Styll,
as reprinted in "The Heart Of The Matter - The best of the CCM interviews
Vol. I".
pdt.
PS. For some reason, I can just _hear_ Arlo Guthrie saying the first part
of that last quoted sentence...
Jon Madison
>David Barro "Buzzy Bellew (DAB...@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
>: "... God has really been using you and your music to reach
>: out to people! ..."
>
>: ya know what Mr. Green's response was? (K. Green had been ***VERY***
>
>: "... I don't believe you. If you wanna really be used by
>: God, become a missionary!..."
>A friend of mine likes Keith Green, and she sent me this tract, but to me
>Keith Green seemed very hung up on people becoming ministers... there was
[...]
>by God was to go "out to the frontline" and be a missionary... perhaps
>misguided enthusiasm... we are told [James 3 I think..] that we should
[...]
have you read the biography, _No Comprimise_? extreeeemly encouraging,
and it seems that God was showing Keith a lot before he died. Yes,
he did have tons of enthusiasm, and later even had repented of a lot of
some "stuff" (as far as "misguided enthusiam"'s concerned).
jon
(oh, _No Comprimise_ is keith green's biography.)
ShaylaGal
Straight) writes:
...>>>>Um, aren't you confusing the CCM industry with the church?<<<<
Well, the body as a whole *is* church. Bricks & mortar is only a place
to hang & wordship.
But i do agree with the rest....
Tina
TAM...@aol.com
clarkcr
: Well, the body as a whole *is* church.
Which just proves CCM is not the entirety of it :)
peace,
Cat
Ed Rock
Thank God.
Ed Rock | I'm not Amy Grant
aka Ed Crabtree | --but I've played her on the radio.
ercr...@email.unc.edu |