Irish song title translation...

Douglas M. Jole

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Jul 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/21/99

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I have some friends who need an English tune title ("the two of
us") translated into Irish Gaelic. I can turn it into Welsh, but my
rudimentary (non-existent) Gaelic requires me to ask somebody else what it
would be. Any takers?

Colm Mac Cárthaigh

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Jul 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/21/99

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"An beirt againn"

---------------------------------------------------------

PGP6 Publickey: http://www.clubi.ie/colmmacc/colmkey.txt

---------------------------------------------------------
Colm Mac Cárthaigh
colm...@clubi.ie

http://www.clubi.ie/colmmacc/

Jon Freeman

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Jul 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/21/99

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Douglas M. Jole <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.95.990721...@plato.ucs.mun.ca...

>
> I have some friends who need an English tune title ("the two of
> us") translated into Irish Gaelic. I can turn it into Welsh, but my
> rudimentary (non-existent) Gaelic requires me to ask somebody else what it
> would be. Any takers?

Ti siarad Cymraeg? I have lived there for over 20 years this time round and
still can't.

Jon

Jon Freeman

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Jul 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/21/99

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Jon Freeman <jonb...@freeuk.com> wrote

> Douglas M. Jole <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote

> > I have some friends who need an English tune title ("the two of

> > us") translated into Irish Gaelic. I can turn it into Welsh, but my
> > rudimentary (non-existent) Gaelic requires me to ask somebody else what
it
> > would be. Any takers?
>
> Ti siarad Cymraeg? I have lived there for over 20 years this time round
and
> still can't.

Although I can't speak the language, I love a lot of the music and compared
to the Irish and Scottish tunes, the Welsh ones seem to get forgotten about
so here is the abc for 3 that I enjoy playing:

Ymdaith Caerphilly (The Caerphilly March)
Ymdaith gwyr Dyfnaint (The March of the Devon Men)
Mon (Anglesey)

Douglas M. Jole

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Jul 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/23/99

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On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Jon Freeman wrote:
> Although I can't speak the language, I love a lot of the music and compared
> to the Irish and Scottish tunes, the Welsh ones seem to get forgotten about
> so here is the abc for 3 that I enjoy playing:
>
> Ymdaith Caerphilly (The Caerphilly March)
> Ymdaith gwyr Dyfnaint (The March of the Devon Men)
> Mon (Anglesey)

(ABCs deleted for space saving)

I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked in
traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much overshadowed by
the big two (Irish, then Scottish). I surmise that it's a combination of
a few things:
a) the ex-patriate base is smaller (fewer people left/leave Wales than the
other two countries);
b) the active groups of musicians and the networks that support them is
smaller;
c) Wales doesn't have quite the romantic, "Celtic" mist-rock-romance image
that the other two have for most people, due (I think) to history.
d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think of
the image of Welsh choirs), and harp music (very classical in sound
and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance music,
although I don't know (yet) why this is so.
Anybody out there who can fill in the gaps/cracks?

Jon Freeman

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Douglas M. Jole <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote

> I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked in

> traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much overshadowed by
> the big two (Irish, then Scottish). I surmise that it's a combination of
> a few things:

> a) the ex-patriate base is smaller (fewer people left/leave Wales than the
> other two countries);

This is true but it doesn't explain why the Irish/ Scottish music
overshadows the Welsh tunes in my part of North Wales although the larger
number of people who moved to countries like America from the other 2
countries has probably had an effect on the marketing policies of record
companies.

> d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think of
> the image of Welsh choirs), and harp music (very classical in sound
> and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance music,
> although I don't know (yet) why this is so.

I wish that I could offer an explanation for this. The dance music seem to
be very much the poor relation and many people in my part of North Wales are
not even aware of its existence. I have played a set of Welsh tunes only to
be asked by a local to play something Welsh - half of them seem to think
that the dance music must be Irish or Scottish.

Jon

Jeremy Main

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Douglas M. Jole wrote in message ...

>On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Jon Freeman wrote:
>> Although I can't speak the language, I love a lot of the music and
compared
>> to the Irish and Scottish tunes, the Welsh ones seem to get forgotten
about
>> so here is the abc for 3 that I enjoy playing:
>>
>> Ymdaith Caerphilly (The Caerphilly March)
>> Ymdaith gwyr Dyfnaint (The March of the Devon Men)
>> Mon (Anglesey)
>(ABCs deleted for space saving)
>

>I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked in
>traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much overshadowed by
>the big two (Irish, then Scottish). I surmise that it's a combination of
>a few things:
>a) the ex-patriate base is smaller (fewer people left/leave Wales than the
>other two countries);

>b) the active groups of musicians and the networks that support them is
>smaller;
>c) Wales doesn't have quite the romantic, "Celtic" mist-rock-romance image
>that the other two have for most people, due (I think) to history.

>d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think of
>the image of Welsh choirs), and harp music (very classical in sound
>and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance music,
>although I don't know (yet) why this is so.

Sorry about bringing a commercial note into the thread, but if this line is
to get anywhere we need the help of Sain: I've refered the question to David
Iwan's team for help, please bear with them.

Jon Freeman

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Jeremy Main <wana...@wanadoo.be> wrote

> Sorry about bringing a commercial note into the thread, but if this line
is
> to get anywhere we need the help of Sain: I've refered the question to
David
> Iwan's team for help, please bear with them.

I will wait and see but I always thought (probably wrongly) that Sain were
more interested in the Welsh langauge aspects of the music.

Jon

Colin Paul Garrett

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Douglas M. Jole <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote in article
<Pine.OSF.3.95.990723...@plato.ucs.mun.ca>...

> I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked in
> traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much overshadowed by
> the big two (Irish, then Scottish). I surmise that it's a combination of
> a few things:

> Anybody out there who can fill in the gaps/cracks?

For what it's worth - I grew up in the coal fields of NSW. Many of the
miners were Welsh and Scots. At social functions, the Scots would drag out
the Pipes or Accordian and people would dance, the Welsh would sing,
sometimes alone, sometimes in groups, people listened. That's why I think
of Scots music to dance to, Welsh music to listen to, Irish music to cry
to. It wasn't until recently that I discovered the variety of Scottish and
Irish Music, blissfully! There's more to Welsh music? Lead me to it!!
Maybe the Welsh have lacked some kind of portable instrument to play at
parties and have relied too much on their vocals - I don't know.
Love the language though - I followed 2 ladies for half a mile through the
streets of Dolgellau just to listen to them - nearly missed my tour bus,
but it is one of the highlights of my tour. It would be criminal to not
encourage it every chance you get, likewise for your Music

Jeremy Main

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Jon Freeman wrote in message ...

Going back a long way it wasn't always so - and I hope David Iwan
appreciates the sentiment!

ryan...@tc.umn.edu

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Douglas M. Jole wrote:

> I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked
> in traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much
> overshadowed by the big two (Irish, then Scottish).

And I find it curious that the assumption that Celtic music overshadows
Celtic music is so prevalent, in light of the fact it is traditional
music in the English language, popular music in the English language, and
art music in the European "high art" tradtions that overshadows all
Celtic music, including Irish, Scottish and Welsh music.

The recent popularity of Irish and Scottish music is just that--recent.
As in very. Its audiences are also much more limited than is often
suggested by people here (and elsewhere!) It doesn't enjoy near the
popularity internationally, in North America, Britain, Ireland or Europe,
as does Sting or the Beatles! I mean think about it--what Irish or Scots
traditional musicians are as well known and successful as Ricky Martin?
Latin music is much bigger than Celtic music will ever be, Douglas. So
it helps to look at this a few steps removed from the Celtic
countries/Celtic peoples Diaspora & ex-pat communities, and see them in a
more natural context, including their relationships/influences of
neighboring peoples.

Celtic music has historically been marginalized because of its proximity
to England, and because of the nature of the colonial relationship
whereby England controlled the development of art, literature and
culture of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. It still does, although with
the recent positive developments politically, the situation is beginning
to change.

It is Anglo folk music, not Celtic folk music, which has been dominant in
Britain (to use the term "British Isles" is pretty inflammatory in this
newsgroup Douglas, and it *is* an antiquated and outdated term in
geographical and political terms--has been since the break up of the
Union in the 1920s when Ireland was partitioned by the British). And in
America for that matter.

For centuries, not just the past 10 years or so.

> I surmise that it's a combination of a few things:

> a) the ex-patriate base is smaller (fewer people left/leave Wales than
> the other two countries);

I don't know that the Welsh themselves, who constitute the largest
communal audience for Welsh music, are much influenced by what their
ex-pat communities in the far-flung corners of the world are listening
to, as much as what their fellow country men and women are listening to.
Which is largely the same as what their English and Scottish and Irish
neighbors listen to. It is nigh on impossible to determine what music
Diasporan and ex-pat communities listen to. No one keeps tracks of those
statistics.

> b) the active groups of musicians and the networks that support them is
> smaller;

The music community is smaller, I agree. That's due to the size of the
general population of Wales, though. But it isn't always the size of a
music community that determines its influence, or its reach. Its more
complex than that.

> c) Wales doesn't have quite the romantic, "Celtic" mist-rock-romance > image that the other two have for most people, due (I think) to
> history.

I totally disagree. The romanticized "Celtic mist" image is rooted in
the misunderstood and grossly misinterpreted English language spins on
the mythologies of the Celts, sometimes by the Celts themselves, but
more often by their Anglo interpreters. The literature of the Welsh is
one of the oldest surviving vernacular literatures in Europe, along with
the Irish. Can't get more misty-eyed romantic than the Arthurian legends,
as they've been appropriated and misinterpreted by the English, now can
you?

> d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think
> of the image of Welsh choirs), and harp music (very classical in sound
> and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance
> music, although I don't know (yet) why this is so.

They co-exist in Wales, just as they do in Ireland and Scotland. Ireland
has the same classical influences present in its indigenous music and
literature as does Wales. Attempting to use the dance music to make
distinctions obfuscates the reality. Both popular and classical music
traditions have co-existed in all three countries. The popular and
classical music traditions were influenced by England and Europe a great
deal, although there doesn't seem to have been any significant influence
from Celtic music upon the folk or classical music of continental Europe
to any great extent. However, Celtic folk music does seem to
have influenced the folk music of England somewhat (and I include the
religious music traditions as sometimes folk, sometimes classical,
depending upon the context). But Celtic classical music doesn't seem
to have had anymore influence in English high art/classical music
than the continental European traditions.

But then, England wasn't much of an influence on European classical music
either--France, Italy, Germany, Poland, some other European countries
influenced the classical tradition in England, not vice versa.

However, there are differences in the religious music traditions in the
three countries, due to the religious developments which occurred in each
country.

I see the Celtic music and literary traditions of Ireland, Scotland and
Wales as a continuum more than as traditions of totally distinct and
radically different cultures, despite the linguistic differences. I
really dislike the ways these "Irish is more popular than Scottish" or
"Irish is more popular than English" folk music arguments. Not only are
they usually rooted in post-colonial/devolution/nationalist political
contexts (whether people realize it or not), they also create an articial
urgency to privlege one Celtic group's music over another, rather than
understand the importance of recognizing and appreciating all of it for
what it is, rather than who dominates politically.

> Anybody out there who can fill in the gaps/cracks?

Dunno if that helps, or makes them bigger?

Janet Ryan

Jon Freeman

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Colin Paul Garrett <C.P.G...@bigpond.com> wrote

> There's more to Welsh music? Lead me to it!!

I don't know of a website which offers a collection of Welsh dance music but
Blodau'r Grug published by the Welsh Folk Dance Society offers a nice
collection of 100 tunes.

I have intended making a collection of midis or abcs of some of the Welsh
tunes for a while now but haven't really got going on this yet.

Here is 3 more that I have done:

Ty Coch Caerdydd (The Red House of Cardiff)
Machynlleth (The name of a town in mid Wales town)
Ffidl Ffadl (? Fiddle Faddle)

Jon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

X: 1
T:
M: 4/4
L: 1/8

Jon Freeman

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Jul 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/24/99

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Janet, I think that you are wrong in your ideas that one form of Celtic
music
can not be more dominant than another and that in the case of Welsh music,
the choral and harp traditions are far more dominant than the dance music.
All I can offer is my personal experience which admittedly does only cove
one corner of the country though:

Apart from a gap between 1973 and 1977 when I lived in the South of England,
I have lived in the same part of North West Wales since 1967 and was aware
of the existence of the choral and harp (but not the folk dance) traditions
from a reasonably early age (I was born in 1960).

Since I moved back to this area in 1978, I have been very involved (regular
floor singer and session player at various venues, part of the resident
group/ organisation in 1 folk club, founder member of another folk club and
of 2 sessions) in the local folk scene, and although I met a few players of
the Irish dance music fairly early on, it wasn't until about 1988 that I
started to meet people who played the Welsh dance music.

With the exception of one session in Bangor that tries to keep to the Welsh
music.
The sessions in this area are mixed but the majority of the music that gets
played is Irish not Welsh.

Jon

<ryan...@tc.umn.edu> wrote in message news:379998...@tc.umn.edu...

ryan...@tc.umn.edu

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

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Hello John,

Apparently something in the tone of my post caused you to interpret it in
a way I didn't intend. It was not my intention to alienate or aggravate,
but apparently something in what I said has irritated you.

So let me try again, as my purpose for responding to Douglas was to share
what I know, from my perspective.

John Fenton wrote:

>
> In message <379998...@tc.umn.edu> you wrote:
>
> > Douglas M. Jole wrote:

>>> I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked
>>> in traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much
>>> overshadowed by the big two (Irish, then Scottish).

>> And I find it curious that the assumption that Celtic music
>>overshadows Celtic music is so prevalent, in light of the fact it is
>>traditional music in the English language, popular music in the English
>>language, and art music in the European "high art" tradtions that
>>overshadows all Celtic music, including Irish, Scottish and Welsh
>>music.
>

> Douglas wasn't comparing Welsh, Scottish or Irish music
> with any other type of music, he was comparing them with each other;
> for what it's worth, I agree with his assessment of their relative
> popularities.

I wasn't disagreeing with Douglas' assessment. What I was trying to do
was point out that Irish and Scottish musics' popularity isn't the reason
Welsh music is less known. I wanted to talk about Wales' proximity to
and colonial/post-colonial relationship to England as the central reason
why Welsh music isn't as well known as Irish and
Scottish music. Douglas didn't mention that anywhere in his post, and I
feel its crucial to understanding how the music developed, adapted,
changed, remained the same, etc. in those contexts. Mick Tems' post
discusses this in more specific detail. Mick focused (thankfully, he is
this newsgroups resident expert on Welsh music) on Wales specifically, I
tried to introduce a pan-Celtic and European cultural perspective to the
discussion, which I'm sure you'd agree, is also valid.

> He was asking why Welsh music doesn't receive as much attention
> as Scottish and Irish music (this is the 'Celtic Music' newsgroup,
> after all). It seems quite a straightforward point and a good
> item for discussion. His premise that Welsh music doesn't receive the
> same attention as the other two (that he mentions) seems correct; are
> you suggesting that Welsh music *does* receive as much attention/is
> played as often? (Surely not!)

No, I wasn't suggesting that at all. But I do find it curious that some
peoples' perceptions of Welsh music being less popular than Irish and
Scottish music seems to have an undercurrent to it--an assumption that
the reason why Welsh music isn't as popular is rooted in the relationship
of music between Ireland and Wales or Scotland and Wales, and
doesn't mention the main reason for Welsh music being overshadowed,
in a Celtic or non-Celtic context, which is the relationship between
England and Wales. As I said, Mick Tems' post explains this much better
than can I in his post.

> What *I* find curious is why you drag these other types of music into
> the discussion.

John, perhaps your "curiosity" about what I choose to post isn't rooted
in what I actually said in this post, but has something to do with me in
general? You seem to have an awareness of my posting history, if I am to
go by this statement of yours. You seem to be suggesting that my
contributions to threads are inappropriate to the subject matter under
discussion. I don't feel that's true at all, although I agree, I do
often offer a perspective that is different from the received wisdom of
the day. I believe the newsgroup readership is perfectly capable
of hearing differing views from multiple perspectives, and be tolerant
and accepting of the introduction of new ideas to the discussion of
Celtic music. No one person can know all, which is why its so crucial to
have many voices, many ideas contributing to the chorus here. That way
we can all keep learning, and broadening our horizons.

> Please feel free to do so but I don't see the relevance
> to Douglas' question.

I hope that by my posting in response to you, particularly in light of
what Mick talks about, you might see the relevance.

> (Again for what it's worth, I agree with your assessment of their
>relative popularities except that I don't understand the term 'traditional music in the English language'. I suspect you are
> implying that any traditional music in English is not Celtic music;

Your suspicion is unfounded John. If you re-read what I said, in the
pan-Celtic, and compare what I said to what Mick said about the Welsh
language vis a vis the English language, it should be quite clear.
It might also help if you remember that by comparing Welsh music to Irish
and Scottish music, Douglas himself was already looking at Welsh music in
a pan-Celtic comparison and context.

> if so, I don't think that such a definition would be generally
>accepted.

That's correct, it would be wrong to define Celtic music strictly in
terms of the language the songs are sung in. However, a lot of Celtic
music is sung in Celtic languages, so it is central to the definition of
Celtic music, IMO. As is the centrality of the relationship of Celtic
music to Celtic literature in their vernacular languages. Again, Mick's
post supports what I was saying from a pan-Celtic perspective, in a
specifically Welsh context.

> I concede that 'Celtic Music' is hardly a precise term, it means pretty
> much what people here, ie this newsgroup, want it to mean.)

Well, here I both agree and disagree. If you use current popular usage
of the word "Celtic" I think its a grossly inaccurate, much misused word.
Used in its historic contexts, I think it's quite precise because the
Celtic languages are easily definable, and the centrality of language to
art and culture is not so difficult to comprehend as it is when bi- or
multi-lingual contexts are introduced.

But because of the conquests of Wales, Scotland and Ireland by England,
that bi-lingual context has been the reality for centuries now. While it
is much easier for natives of those countries to keep it all straight, it
isn't near so easy for non-natives who are often monolingual English
speakers, to grasp all the complexities inherent in the music as a result
of the language issue. Certainly many people from the US and Canada have
little contact with other languages, which of course is quite different
from the experiences of most Europeans. A little bit of compassion and
understanding for us in this regard goes a long way to help further our
understanding of these issues. We don't know these things because we
usually have no experience with other languages, and because we aren't
taught about living in a bi- or mulit-lingual world, which is something
many Europeans seem to take for granted. There are people in this
newsgroup who didn't even know that Welsh was still spoken, or Gaelic for
that matter, as living languages. So, a bit of patience for us Norte
Americanos is required, I'm afraid!

>> The recent popularity of Irish and Scottish music is just
>>that--recent. As in very. Its audiences are also much more limited
>>than is often suggested by people here (and elsewhere!)
>

> 'The recent popularity' where? Out of interest, where is 'here' (this
> newsgroup, North America, Australia, Japan?) For me, 'here' is South
> West Scotland. Scottish music has been popular 'here', for at least as
> long as I can remember (~40 years), and I have reason to suppose it was
> popular before then, too.

I think perhaps the sticking point here is, how do we define "popular."
I live in Minnesota, which has always had a pretty strong Irish American
music community. However, in the past ten years in particular, there has
been a discernable increase in interest in the music, which has resulted
in more musicians playing Irish music, more music venues opening up, more
attention from the media, more attention from and interest shown by
non-Irish Americans, that sort of thing.

We have some GHB pipe bands here, but I wouldn't say there has been an
increase in their popularity, but I don't really know--perhaps Royce
Lerwick could speak to that. It is my perception that the Welsh music
community is stronger here in Minnesota than the Scottish music community
is--but then, that doesn't fit with ranking Douglas gave, does it? We
have a Welsh trad folk band here, there is a growing interest in Welsh
hymn singing, etc.

In Ireland, where I recently lived for 18 months while formally
studying Irish music and literature, the growth in popularity of Irish
dance music in urban areas among the population of young people with no
direct connections to traditional music communities, there has been a
literal explosion of interest in the past decade. Yes, Irish music had
always been popular within certain communities, both in Ireland and in
some scattered Diasporan Irish communities in North America (like in
Minnesota, for instance). But I think we all would agree that in the
past decade in particular, there has been an increase in interest in all
Celtic music, including Welsh.

>>It doesn't enjoy near the popularity internationally, in North America,
>>Britain, Ireland or Europe, as does Sting or the Beatles! I mean think
>>about it--what Irish or Scots traditional musicians are as well known
>>and successful as Ricky Martin?
>

> (Straying ever further from Douglas' point) I, for one, have no idea
> who Ricky Martin is! (I concede I may be atypical in this respect)
> I've just asked my wife who says she's heard the name, recently, but
> doesn't know more than that.

Ricky Martin is the latest Latin pop cross-over sensation, who sings in
English and Spanish. His music is currently topping the the English
language and Spanish language pop music charts (the music industry
treats Spanish language pop music separately from English language pop
music, with separate charts, racking in the shops, etc). Latino music is
one of the biggest music markets in the world. As is Hindi film music.

What I was trying to point out is the significance the dominance of
majority languages over minority languages has in the music industry, to
illustrate my point about English language popular music and European
classical music in relation to the minority language music of the Celts.
I hope that helps to clarify my point. You're right, this wasn't very
clear in my original post.
>
> 'Pop' music is definitely more popular than folk/traditional music
>'here', agreed.

>
>> Latin music is much bigger than Celtic music will ever be, Douglas.
>> So it helps to look at this a few steps removed from the Celtic
>> countries/Celtic peoples Diaspora & ex-pat communities, and see them
>>in a more natural context, including their relationships/influences of
>> neighboring peoples.
>

> So, I happen to live in a 'Celtic' country which you've just relegated
> to an 'unnatural context'! All the world take note that celtic
>countries have little relevance in the 'Celtic Music' newsgroup. (Jeezo,
>and I used to think the English were parochial!)

Apparently there was a button you had somewhere I didn't see? ;-)
No, when I said "natural context" (which is an odd choice of words
perhaps, but it was uniquely my own, and I stand by it) I simply meant,
look at the music in its broader contexts in its colonial/post-colonial
relationships with England, in relation to Europe, and the rest of the
world, and not just through the lens of the Celtic communities in the
Celtic countries and their Diasporan/ex-pat communities. Its a
microcosm/macrocosm thing, John.

>
>> Celtic music has historically been marginalized because of its
>> proximity to England, and because of the nature of the colonial
>> relationship whereby England controlled the development of art,
>>literature and culture of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. It still does,
>>although with the recent positive developments politically, the
>>situation is beginning to change.
>

> I don't agree (my opinion is that this is nonsensical).

You have the right to disagree of course. You also have the right to be
wrong. I defer in this regard to Mick Tems.

> Traditional Scottish and Irish music has been marginalized no more than
> traditional English music, probably less.

Not true of the music sung in Gaelic and Welsh at all. Its a wholly
different kettle of fish. Many music and literary scholars recognize
this, I'm not making it up to score points in the arena of politics and
identity culture wars.

> Of all the things Scottish which *have* been marginalized (by the > English), traditional music is surely not one.

Again, you really don't have the support of the scholars behind you on
this one, though you would surely have the support of many of those
currently engaged in the political and cultural identity arenas in
agreement with you. After all these winds of change blow through, I
think the scholars will be proved right, not the other way round.

>
>> It is Anglo folk music, not Celtic folk music, which has been dominant

>>in Britain.

> This is rubbish. No sort of folk music has been 'dominant', here.
> Enthusiasts had to set up a sort of folk song preservation society in
> order to ensure that English folk music didn't disappear without trace.
> That doesn't seem to have been necessary for Scots and Irish folk
>music.

Cecil Sharp, et al. Yes, I'm quite aware of that history. Maybe you are
familiar with the work of English folk music scholar Georgina Boyes?

> In a recent discussion, Tony McManus pointed out that Scottish
>traditional music is the most completely documented traditional music on
>the planet - I suspect he 'knows what he's talking about'.

I agree the traditional music of those islands are some of the best
documented sources of folk music in the world. But it is in no means
complete. And English folk music, while it may or may not be "more"
documented, it has been more broadly known because of the use of English
folk songs and tales in the schools in the UK, Ireland, the US,
Australia, Canada and other smaller English speaking countries where
England was the colonial power. And again, the documentation of the
music in the Celtic languages is much less documented than the music in
the English language in the those islands. There is a reason for
that--and its rooted in colonialism. The same is true in the US, where
the folk music of those islands was documented extensively, while the
folk music of the indigenous peoples was rarely documented at all.

As an interesting side note, an American Indian writer from these parts
recently did a play for the Great North American History Theater here in
St. Paul about Francis Densmore, an Anglo American folk song collector
who collected songs among the Ojibway in this part of the US. It was
quite a provocative and controversial play because it challenged the very
notions you are espousing here, John. History gets written by the
winners, and collecting gets done by the conquerors--there are profound
implications involved in that dynamic. I'm interested in those dynamics,
so I often talk about them in the newsgroup. If others don't want to
hear it, they have the choice not to read the posts. If they disagree
with it, they of course have a right to challenge me. But its
disingenuous to suggest I'm crazy because I approach the music from a
different vantage point than the dominant Anglocentric worldview.

>> (to use the term "British Isles" is pretty inflammatory in this
>> newsgroup Douglas,
>

> Douglas is using the term 'British Isles' in a precise and proper
>context.

Again, you've the right to be wrong John. It is not a correct usage
politically or geographically. Britain no longer controls all those
islands. Period.

> Whether it is or is not 'inflammatory' only others can give their own
> opinions.

That's what I did.

> I *can* state that *I* don't consider it inflammatory and,

And I can state I do find it to be inflammatory, unnecessary and
insensitive. Not to mention a denial that Ireland exists as a nation on
a island of its own, which is not British.

>in my opinion, there is no rational cause for anyone to be inflamed by
>the term.

Your opinion. Others disagree with it. It doesn't make those who
disagree with you irrational--that is a terribly disingenuous attitude,
and not a very gracious or generous one, I might add. Is there some
reason why Irish people aren't entitled to some respect and recognition
for being a nation and a people independent from Britain?

> The name derives from the pre-Roman, *Celtic* inhabitants of these
>islands!

Bullshit. It derives from "Commonwealth of Great Britain and Ireland"
and the Act of Union.

> It has nothing to do with Her Brittanic Majesty's government (which I
> suppose is a connection to which you refer). Do you have an alternative
> which expresses the same meaning equally succinctly?

Yes. The islands of Britain and Ireland. Anything else?

>>and it *is* an antiquated and outdated term in geographical and
>>political terms--has been since the break up of the Union in the 1920s
>>when Ireland was partitioned by the British). And in America for that
>>matter.
>

> Well, whether we like it or not, the Union (of the Crowns) still
>exists.

Not in Ireland it doesn't. No one wears crowns in Ireland, nor do the
Irish recognize people who wear them. And thank God, US citizens don't
either.

> I suppose the Union (of the parliaments) does too, despite there being
>a devolved Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly. I suspect you of
>equating the terms 'English' and 'British'.

Are you suspicious of me being a nasty "up the 'RA" knee-jerk reactionary
Irish American republican sympathizer too John? Thanks for the
compliment. ;-)

I think your suspicions might be getting the better of you, John.
I never equate the terms English and British. I wouldn't want to insult
my Celtic cousins. :)

> This is a trait that Scots find infuriating amongst the English.

I'm not English John, I'm American--and see above. I know that Scots,
Welsh and Irish people are sensitive about it. Which is why I called
attention to Douglas' use of the term "British Isles." Irish people are
often sensitive to that too. And to Yeats being referred to as a British
author. And Irish literature being taught in schools as English
literature. Again--its the colonial context that is at the root of these
things, innit? Many Irish people are just as sensitive to the term
British Isles as are Scottish people to being called British. Are Irish
people not deserving of our respectful sensitivity? They have struggled
mightily for independence from Britain John, and some of them are still
struggling for it. I just feel very strongly it is wrong to identify the
island of Ireland as British. I find it quite odd that you would think
this was wrong, considering what you just said about Scottish people
being referred to as British. It is in no way "right" or "correct" to
refer to the island of Ireland as British. That challenges the
conventional usage of the term "British Isles" which many people still
use. They shouldn't. In this case, I argue against "common usage" and
what seems easiest. None of the Celtic countries will ever gain an
independent identity if we don't continue to challenge the supremacies of
an Anglocentric worldview. Just doin' my job pointing it out, is all.

> The term 'British Isles' is not outdated geographically. In the present
> context, for example, it describes a geographical area which shares a
> common cultural heritage, namely its folk music, which is distinct from
> that of its geographical neighbours. You seem to state as much, further
> on in your posting!

No, the reality is, the island of Ireland has historically been shown on
maps geographically as being separate from Britain. That only changed
with the Act of Union, which amazingly, and *not* coincidentally
occurred at the same time modern map making which places England at the
center of the world, began. Think about it John--GMT. 0 degree. All
that!

>> For centuries, not just the past 10 years or so.

John goes back to quote Douglas again, and I snipped irrelevant stuff for
space:

>>> c) Wales doesn't have quite the romantic, "Celtic" mist-rock-romance
>>> image that the other two have for most people, due (I think) to
>>> history.

>> I totally disagree. The romanticized "Celtic mist" image is rooted in
>> the misunderstood and grossly misinterpreted English language spins on
>> the mythologies of the Celts, sometimes by the Celts themselves, but
>> more often by their Anglo interpreters. The literature of the Welsh
>>is one of the oldest surviving vernacular literatures in Europe, along
>>with the Irish. Can't get more misty-eyed romantic than the Arthurian
>>legends, as they've been appropriated and misinterpreted by the
>>English, now can you?
>

> I'm astonished; are you saying (writing) that Wales *does* have the
> "'Celtic' mist-rock-romance image" that Scotland and Ireland do for
> most (presumably, North American) people, as Douglas contests? In that
> case I think you must be wrong but I'm willing to be persuaded > >
>otherwise.

Well, here Douglas used it to draw attention to its most recent "Celtic
mist" manifestation, which is often a pronounced tendency among American
rock bands attempting to exploit the imagery often used in romanticized,
English language interpretations of Celtic mythology.

Everyone with connections to contemporary Celtic pop and rock music, and
I would argue this does include Celtic music acts in those islands, is
faced with how they are going to deal with this monster. The power of
the Anglicized Celt imagery has over peoples' imaginations is quite
pervasive, both in those islands, and beyond them. It is my perception
that Welsh music acts haven't--and won't--be able to escape this any more
or better/worse than have their Irish and Scottish counterparts. So I
guess it would be more accurate to say my contention is that in regards
to popular Welsh music, yes--the "Celtic mist" factor is pervasively
present there too.

<snip> a bunch of stuff, then back to Janet's post:

>> I see the Celtic music and literary traditions of Ireland, Scotland
>>and Wales as a continuum more than as traditions of totally distinct
>>and radically different cultures, despite the linguistic differences.
>>I really dislike the ways these "Irish is more popular than Scottish"
>>or "Irish is more popular than English" folk music arguments.
>

> OK, you don't like these comparisons but that doesn't mean that they
> can't be made nor that such comparisons are invalid.

Or that I shouldn't write in complete sentences when I make them!
The thing I was trying to bring to light was that it isn't the popularity
of Irish and Scottish music that has eclipsed Welsh music in terms of
popularity. The reasons are much more complex, and Mick Tems' post does
address the issues I struggled to bring to light, but apparently failed
to do very well.

There is the fact that Irish and Scottish music currently enjoy greater
popularity than Welsh music. I don't know whether that has always been
true historically, and of course none of us knows if it will continue to
be true in the future. My main premise in my post is that arguments
which seem to suggest that Celtic music overshadows Celtic music often
don't take into account the ways that traditional music in the English
language, popular music in the English language and European classical
music has overshadowed *ALL* Celtic music. That's all! That's the main
point I was trying to make. And that was a relevant point to raise,
considering the way Douglas was asking the questions, I think.

>
>>Not only are they usually rooted in
>>post-colonial/devolution/nationalist political contexts (whether people
>>realize it or not), they also create an articial urgency to privlege
>>one Celtic group's music over another, rather than understand the
>>importance of recognizing and appreciating all of it for what it is,
>>rather than who dominates politically.
>

> Heavens above, I wish I understood that! How you get to any of that
>from what Douglas posted is beyond me!

Sigh. Well, I know its difficult, dense stuff John. I'm not claiming to
be particularly brilliant at explaining it. But I hope by responding to
the points you've addressed, that it renders what I'm trying to say more
intelligible. Again, the main point I was trying to raise was that it
isn't Irish and Scottish music that is "to blame" for Welsh music being
less popular than the other two, but rather the dominance of popular
English language music (both what we refer to as "traditional" and "pop"
in historic and contemporary contexts), and European classical music,
which has caused Welsh music to be "less popular" than Irish and Scottish
music. In the same way that Basque music is less popular than Spanish
music, just to use a quick analogy (hopefully without it being assumed
I'm suggesting the two are analagous).

And I suppose by attempting to "explain myself" I may have only muddied
the waters even further...

Cheers!

Janet Ryan

Mick Tems

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

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In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.990723...@plato.ucs.mun.ca>,

"Douglas M. Jole" <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:
>
> I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked in
> traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much overshadowed by
> the big two (Irish, then Scottish).

Hi, Douglas. We've been playing Welsh music around the world for more than
20 years, and it's been fascinating to watch the increasing outside interest
in our traditions. You might like to check out our Celfyddydau Mari Arts
site at www.folkwales.org.uk for an overview.
Little is known of Welsh music before the 17th century. The earliest
manuscript is that of Robert ap Huw, and scholars today still debate how ap
Huw's work should be interpreted. Before that, back to the 12th century and
the founding of the Eisteddfod, harpers and bards held a special place in
Welsh society, the harper accompanying the declamations of the bard.
Pressures on Welsh culture were intense, far more so than they were in
Ireland or Scotland. The geography of Wales has always meant that the trade
routes run east-west, into England; Wales was finally absorbed by England i
Henry VIII's Act of 1536, which placed huge restrictions on the Welsh
language and the country's culture.
The 17th century saw the first wave of a series of strict Non-conformist
religious revivals which continued until the early years of this century.
When Edward Jones, harper to the King, published his Musical and Poetic
Relicks of the Welsh Bards in 1784, he wrote: "Wales, formerly one of the
merriest of countries, has now become one of the dullest."
You'll find evidence of this in the Welsh hymnbook today, where many hymn
tunes are recognisable as the slowed-down jigs and hornpipes of a previous
time. Even in this century, when Huw Mellor was collecting dance steps, some
of his informants would draw the curtains before demonstrating so the
neighbours would not see them dancing.
The other major factor in Welsh music has always been this: The music of
Ireland and Scotland has always been accessible to English speakers and
therefore to the vast markets of America. Welsh music and song in fact
Welsh culture in general has always centred on the Welsh language. This
has had two effects: The Welsh tradition has naturally been introverted, and
80 per cent of Wales' own population has been disenfranchised from its own
culture. It's one of the biggest incentives for learning the language that
any non-speaker can have!

>I surmise that it's a combination of
> a few things: a) the ex-patriate base is smaller (fewer people left/leave
Wales than the other two countries);

True. Welsh communities around the world are far more scattered. We can't
boast the huge Hibernian and Caledonian societies that you find in most US
cities, for example, with their natural audience for touring musicians.
Welsh Societies have also tended to have an ageing membership, but today
there are welcome signs of some younger movers and shakers trying to
kick-start new activity... Glenn Grove in Delta PA, Susie Hopkins in Phoenix
AZ, Margaret Daniels in Auckland to name just a few off the top of my
head... all people who are keen to encourage the exciting traditional music
flowing from Wales today and show their membership that Wales isn't all
hymns and choirs. (Don't get me wrong I play traditional music and sing in
a choir too!)

> b) the active groups of musicians and the networks that support them is
> smaller;

The networks are growing. The interest in session playing of Welsh music has
increased hugely in recent times, and newly-written tunes are starting to
flow around these sessions... which is always the healthiest sign that a
tradition is alive. We are organising Discovery Sessions, which encourage
new players to gain confidence; Sian Phillips in Sanclêr is running Sesiwn,
which is arranging workshops and sessions; and Cymdeithas Offerynnau
Traddodiadol Cymru (the Welsh Traditional Instruments Society) is raising
the profile of the instruments it perceives as being traditional to Wales,
especially the fiddle and the triple harp. Go to the National Eisteddfod on
Llangefni next week and you'll find traditional music there every day, which
you certainly wouldn't have done a few years ago.

> c) Wales doesn't have quite the romantic, "Celtic" mist-rock-romance image
> that the other two have for most people, due (I think) to history.

If you had seen one or two recent CDs, you'd know the graphic designers are
trying to remedy this. This is a general problem for the Celtic countries;
the word "Celtic" has been so abused and misused by the transatlantic
marketing industry that its validity has been undermined. Even here, it's
come to mean plastic paddy pubs and noisy bands doing bad Shane McGowan
impressions. Where does that leave the quality music for us, the Irish, the
Scots or the Bretons?

> d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think of
> the image of Welsh choirs),

The tradition of harmony singing in Wales is very ancient. Giraldus
Cambrensis mentions it in his 12th century travels; it exists in the
tradition in the wonderful plygain carols from Mid Wales (catch the singing
of Plethyn for a good modern interpretation of this).
Even Welsh tall ship sailors used three-part harmonies in their shanties (I
think it was Whall who said they were the only nation to do so, apart from
black American seamen). Professor J D Davies, who noted many shanties from
the crews of the Welsh-owned companies at the end of the last century,
points out how these ships were communities in miniature; Welsh skippers
could hand-pick crews from their own area, men who had grown up together and
gone to school and Sunday school together; their ability to sing harmonies
was a natural part of this.

>and harp music (very classical in sound
> and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance music,
> although I don't know (yet) why this is so.

The triple harp, usually regarded as the traditional harp of Wales, is a
dance instrument. The man you have to talk to is Robin Huw Bowen, who has
done so much to restore it to its rightful place. Robin's got a variety of
CDs out and also appears on the new Crasdant CD on the Sain label with Huw
Williams (clogs), Stephen Rees (fiddle) and Andy McLoughlin (flute). Robin
plays concerts all over the world and tells hugely entertaining stories
about the music; he has also delved deeply into the gipsy link with the
instrument (it was just about portable enough to be carried on the player's
back!) and had learned tunes from the last surviving player of the gipsy
line, Eldra Jarman, who still lives in Cardiff.

> Anybody out there who can fill in the gaps/cracks?
>

I hope this has helped a bit. Stay in touch!

Mick Tems

>
>

--
Mick Tems & Pat Smith: Calennig/Celfyddydau Mari Arts/
Clwb Gwerin Llantrisant FC Phone/fax: 01443 226892 Mobile 07979 055577
e-mail mari...@argonet.co.uk website: www.folkwales.org.uk
Bythynnod Ty Clwyta, Tafarn-y-Groes, Llantrisant, Rhondda Cynon Taf CF728AZ

John Fenton

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

to

In message <379998...@tc.umn.edu> you wrote:

> Douglas M. Jole wrote:
>
>
> > I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked
> > in traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much
> > overshadowed by the big two (Irish, then Scottish).
>
> And I find it curious that the assumption that Celtic music overshadows
> Celtic music is so prevalent, in light of the fact it is traditional
> music in the English language, popular music in the English language, and
> art music in the European "high art" tradtions that overshadows all
> Celtic music, including Irish, Scottish and Welsh music.

Douglas wasn't comparing Welsh, Scottish or Irish music

with any other type of music, he was comparing them with each other; for
what it's worth, I agree with his assessment of their relative
popularities.

He was asking why Welsh music doesn't receive as much attention

as Scottish and Irish music (this is the 'Celtic Music' newsgroup,
after all). It seems quite a straightforward point and a good
item for discussion. His premise that Welsh music doesn't receive the
same attention as the other two (that he mentions) seems correct; are you
suggesting that Welsh music *does* receive as much attention/is played
as often? (Surely not!)

What *I* find curious is why you drag these other types of music into
the discussion. Please feel free to do so but I don't see the relevance
to Douglas' question. (Again for what it's worth, I agree with your

assessment of their relative popularities except that I don't understand
the term 'traditional music in the English language'. I suspect you are

implying that any traditional music in English is not Celtic music; if so,
I don't think that such a definition would be generally accepted. I

concede that 'Celtic Music' is hardly a precise term, it means pretty
much what people here, ie this newsgroup, want it to mean.)

> The recent popularity of Irish and Scottish music is just that--recent.
> As in very. Its audiences are also much more limited than is often
> suggested by people here (and elsewhere!)

'The recent popularity' where? Out of interest, where is 'here' (this

newsgroup, North America, Australia, Japan?) For me, 'here' is South West
Scotland. Scottish music has been popular 'here', for at least as long
as I can remember (~40 years), and I have reason to suppose it was popular
before then, too.

> It doesn't enjoy near the

> popularity internationally, in North America, Britain, Ireland or Europe,
> as does Sting or the Beatles! I mean think about it--what Irish or Scots
> traditional musicians are as well known and successful as Ricky Martin?

(Straying ever further from Douglas' point) I, for one, have no idea

who Ricky Martin is! (I concede I may be atypical in this respect)
I've just asked my wife who says she's heard the name, recently, but
doesn't know more than that.

'Pop' music is definitely more popular than folk/traditional music 'here',
agreed.

> Latin music is much bigger than Celtic music will ever be, Douglas. So
> it helps to look at this a few steps removed from the Celtic
> countries/Celtic peoples Diaspora & ex-pat communities, and see them in a
> more natural context, including their relationships/influences of
> neighboring peoples.

So, I happen to live in a 'Celtic' country which you've just relegated

to an 'unnatural context'! All the world take note that celtic countries
have little relevance in the 'Celtic Music' newsgroup. (Jeezo, and I
used to think the English were parochial!)

> Celtic music has historically been marginalized because of its proximity
> to England, and because of the nature of the colonial relationship
> whereby England controlled the development of art, literature and
> culture of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. It still does, although with
> the recent positive developments politically, the situation is beginning
> to change.

I don't agree (my opinion is that this is nonsensical). Traditional

Scottish and Irish music has been marginalized no more than traditional

English music, probably less. Of all the things Scottish which *have*

been marginalized (by the English), traditional music is surely not one.

> It is Anglo folk music, not Celtic folk music, which has been dominant in
> Britain

This is rubbish. No sort of folk music has been 'dominant', here.

Enthusiasts had to set up a sort of folk song preservation society in
order to ensure that English folk music didn't disappear without trace.
That doesn't seem to have been necessary for Scots and Irish folk music.

In a recent discussion, Tony McManus pointed out that Scottish traditional
music is the most completely documented traditional music on the planet -
I suspect he 'knows what he's talking about'.

> (to use the term "British Isles" is pretty inflammatory in this
> newsgroup Douglas,

Douglas is using the term 'British Isles' in a precise and proper context.

Whether it is or is not 'inflammatory' only others can give their own

opinions. I *can* state that *I* don't consider it inflammatory and, in my

opinion, there is no rational cause for anyone to be inflamed by the term.

The name derives from the pre-Roman, *Celtic* inhabitants of these islands!

It has nothing to do with Her Brittanic Majesty's government (which I
suppose is a connection to which you refer). Do you have an alternative
which expresses the same meaning equally succinctly?

> and it *is* an antiquated and outdated term in

> geographical and political terms--has been since the break up of the
> Union in the 1920s when Ireland was partitioned by the British). And in
> America for that matter.

Well, whether we like it or not, the Union (of the Crowns) still exists.

I suppose the Union (of the parliaments) does too, despite there being a
devolved Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly. I suspect you of equating

the terms 'English' and 'British'. This is a trait that Scots find
infuriating amongst the English.

The term 'British Isles' is not outdated geographically. In the present

context, for example, it describes a geographical area which shares a
common cultural heritage, namely its folk music, which is distinct from
that of its geographical neighbours. You seem to state as much, further
on in your posting!

>

I'm astonished; are you saying (writing) that Wales *does* have the

"'Celtic' mist-rock-romance image" that Scotland and Ireland do for
most (presumably, North American) people, as Douglas contests? In that
case I think you must be wrong but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

> > d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think

> > of the image of Welsh choirs), and harp music (very classical in sound
> > and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance
> > music, although I don't know (yet) why this is so.
>
> They co-exist in Wales, just as they do in Ireland and Scotland. Ireland
> has the same classical influences present in its indigenous music and
> literature as does Wales. Attempting to use the dance music to make
> distinctions obfuscates the reality. Both popular and classical music
> traditions have co-existed in all three countries. The popular and
> classical music traditions were influenced by England and Europe a great
> deal, although there doesn't seem to have been any significant influence
> from Celtic music upon the folk or classical music of continental Europe
> to any great extent. However, Celtic folk music does seem to
> have influenced the folk music of England somewhat (and I include the
> religious music traditions as sometimes folk, sometimes classical,
> depending upon the context). But Celtic classical music doesn't seem
> to have had anymore influence in English high art/classical music
> than the continental European traditions.

I suspect Douglas was alluding to the widespread adoption of Methodism
in Wales. It has been my understanding that Methodism, with its rather
puritanical outlook, stifled Welsh traditional music. Whether
that's true, I don't know. Perhaps others here (ie reading this
newsgroup) may care to say.

>
> But then, England wasn't much of an influence on European classical music
> either--France, Italy, Germany, Poland, some other European countries
> influenced the classical tradition in England, not vice versa.
>
> However, there are differences in the religious music traditions in the
> three countries, due to the religious developments which occurred in each
> country.
>
> I see the Celtic music and literary traditions of Ireland, Scotland and
> Wales as a continuum more than as traditions of totally distinct and
> radically different cultures, despite the linguistic differences. I
> really dislike the ways these "Irish is more popular than Scottish" or
> "Irish is more popular than English" folk music arguments.

OK, you don't like these comparisons but that doesn't mean that they

can't be made nor that such comparisons are invalid.

> Not only are

> they usually rooted in post-colonial/devolution/nationalist political
> contexts (whether people realize it or not), they also create an articial
> urgency to privlege one Celtic group's music over another, rather than
> understand the importance of recognizing and appreciating all of it for
> what it is, rather than who dominates politically.

Heavens above, I wish I understood that! How you get to any of that from

what Douglas posted is beyond me!

> > Anybody out there who can fill in the gaps/cracks?

>
> Dunno if that helps, or makes them bigger?
>
> Janet Ryan
>

--
John Fenton http://www.gnarumen.demon.co.uk/
==============================================================
This message sent using an Acorn Risc PC 600 (+StrongARM)
Acorn : RISC based desktop computers since 1987

Jon Freeman

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

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Mick Tems <mari...@argonet.co.uk> wrote

>Go to the National Eisteddfod on Llangefni next week and you'll
> find traditional music there every day, which you certainly wouldn't
> have done a few years ago.

I suspect that this would be a bit difficult for Douglas but I might well be
there.

> ... and Andy McLoughlin (flute)

It is funny how things change. I first played with Andy Mac in about 1987
and it wasn't celtic music of any sort. We were both members of the All
Fools Morris Dancers!

I can't resist this one in this ng as I have seen so many comments about
"Classical Goons" - it's amazing what a classically trained bassoon player
can do isn't it?

Jon

PS Thanks for the excellent post, I was hoping that you would come in on
this thread.

Douglas M. Jole

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

to

On Sat, 24 Jul 1999, Colin Paul Garrett wrote:

> For what it's worth - I grew up in the coal fields of NSW. Many of the
> miners were Welsh and Scots. At social functions, the Scots would drag out
> the Pipes or Accordian and people would dance, the Welsh would sing,
> sometimes alone, sometimes in groups, people listened. That's why I think
> of Scots music to dance to, Welsh music to listen to, Irish music to cry
> to. It wasn't until recently that I discovered the variety of Scottish and

> Irish Music, blissfully! There's more to Welsh music? Lead me to it!!

It's there, all right--even I in my limited experience have heard it--but
man, is it ever hard to find! There is no equivalent of Irish
music's "O'Neill's 1001..." for Welsh music, but I am aware that some work
has been done publishing Welsh tunes collected in the National Archives.
The last one I saw (back in 1988) was a collection of hornpipes from
Wales, but I don't know if the following promised volumes of jigs, reels,
etc. are available yet. Even so, just because it's in a book doesn't mean
it'll get played or passed on by live musicians.

> Maybe the Welsh have lacked some kind of portable instrument to play at
> parties and have relied too much on their vocals - I don't know.

Hard to say, although the crwth and the pibgorn were certainly portable
(nothing like lugging that harp around to make you want switch
instruments)... The fiddle itself has been in Wales for at least a couple
hundred years. I can't say for certain any farther back, as I am not a
Welsh music historian.

Douglas M. Jole

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

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On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:
> Douglas M. Jole wrote:
> > I have often found it curious that Welsh music is so often overlooked
> > in traditional music of the British Isles. It is very much
> > overshadowed by the big two (Irish, then Scottish).
>
> And I find it curious that the assumption that Celtic music overshadows
> Celtic music is so prevalent, in light of the fact it is traditional
> music in the English language, popular music in the English language, and
> art music in the European "high art" tradtions that overshadows all
> Celtic music, including Irish, Scottish and Welsh music.

Yes, but it should be clear from the context of my sentence above that I
wasn't referring to those. To restate, I am merely puzzling about the
very-much-lesser exposure/popularity of a small subgenre of folk music
that is the little known cousin of a less-popular type of folk music.
If "Celtic" music is represented by a hypothetical 5% of today's folk
music, then why is Welsh music only 1% or less of that?

> Celtic music has historically been marginalized because of its proximity
> to England, and because of the nature of the colonial relationship
> whereby England controlled the development of art, literature and
> culture of Wales, Scotland and Ireland. It still does, although with
> the recent positive developments politically, the situation is beginning
> to change.
>
> It is Anglo folk music, not Celtic folk music, which has been dominant in

Yes, that's true, but I don't happen to be talking about that at the
moment.

> Britain (to use the term "British Isles" is pretty inflammatory in this
> newsgroup Douglas, and it *is* an antiquated and outdated term in
> geographical and political terms--has been since the break up of the
> Union in the 1920s when Ireland was partitioned by the British). And in
> America for that matter.

Hmm...I wouldn't think it would be inflammatory to use the term "British
Isles" when that is apparently the emic term used by those who are not
English but are referring to the geographical areas where they live.
Perhaps you feel I am saying United Kingdom (which is indeed a politically
loaded misnomer) instead of British Isles?

> > a) the ex-patriate base is smaller (fewer people left/leave Wales than
> > the other two countries);
>
> I don't know that the Welsh themselves, who constitute the largest
> communal audience for Welsh music, are much influenced by what their
> ex-pat communities in the far-flung corners of the world are listening
> to, as much as what their fellow country men and women are listening to.
> Which is largely the same as what their English and Scottish and Irish
> neighbors listen to. It is nigh on impossible to determine what music
> Diasporan and ex-pat communities listen to. No one keeps tracks of those
> statistics.

However, it is possible to see that there are substantially more
Irish-americans and Scottish-Americans, as well as people who claim
connections/links/attraction to those two areas, versus those who are
Welsh-American. It stands to reason, then, that the listening base,
market base, whatever you want to call it, for Welsh cultural product
(music, clothing, vacation packages, etc.) is going to be less.
It would be nice to have those exact statistics, but, as you point out,
there is nobody who can supply them.

> > b) the active groups of musicians and the networks that support them is
> > smaller;
>
> The music community is smaller, I agree. That's due to the size of the
> general population of Wales, though. But it isn't always the size of a
> music community that determines its influence, or its reach. Its more
> complex than that.

I think that in some ways this ties in with the ex-pat, or the "wanna-be"
community. Being Irish is cool, it's "in", etc. for the moment. But how
many people have ever wanted to be Welsh, even if just for St. David's
day?

> > c) Wales doesn't have quite the romantic, "Celtic" mist-rock-romance
> > image that the other two have for most people, due (I think) to
> > history.

> I totally disagree. The romanticized "Celtic mist" image is rooted in
> the misunderstood and grossly misinterpreted English language spins on
> the mythologies of the Celts, sometimes by the Celts themselves, but
> more often by their Anglo interpreters. The literature of the Welsh is
> one of the oldest surviving vernacular literatures in Europe, along with
> the Irish. Can't get more misty-eyed romantic than the Arthurian legends,
> as they've been appropriated and misinterpreted by the English, now can
> you?

Most people, however, do not connect Arthur with Wales, or know that there
was a Mabinogion, or Gododdin, etc. What I am pointing out is that Joe Q.
North American, when asked to name a "Celtic" country, is not likely to
say Wales, and if you ask them to describe Scotland, Ireland, and
Wales, the images that would be presented for the first two would be the
misty lands of romance (tartan, whisky/whiskey, bagpipes, pubs, green
hills, etc.). For Wales? Most likely not the case.

> > d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think
> > of the image of Welsh choirs), and harp music (very classical in sound
> > and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance
> > music, although I don't know (yet) why this is so.
>
> They co-exist in Wales, just as they do in Ireland and Scotland. Ireland
> has the same classical influences present in its indigenous music and
> literature as does Wales. Attempting to use the dance music to make
> distinctions obfuscates the reality. Both popular and classical music
> traditions have co-existed in all three countries.

Yes, this is true. However, I am pointing out that if you ask most people
in English speaking areas about Welsh music, they are likely to either
look blankly at you, murmur something about Tom Jones, harps, or men's
choirs, or the like. Very few will whip out the latest recording by
Gorky's Zygotic Mynki, or Pedwar Yn Y Bar, or the like. I am discussing
the *perception* of what Welsh music is.

> I see the Celtic music and literary traditions of Ireland, Scotland and
> Wales as a continuum more than as traditions of totally distinct and
> radically different cultures, despite the linguistic differences. I

In some ways, I agree with your assessment, but I also think that in
certain ways there are important distinctions that can't be ignored. To
be Welsh is not to be Scottish or Irish, and is certainly not being
English! (The Welsh I spoke to referred to themselves as British, if they
had to make a distinction other than Welsh).

> really dislike the ways these "Irish is more popular than Scottish" or
> "Irish is more popular than English" folk music arguments. Not only are
> they usually rooted in post-colonial/devolution/nationalist political
> contexts (whether people realize it or not), they also create an articial
> urgency to privlege one Celtic group's music over another, rather than
> understand the importance of recognizing and appreciating all of it for
> what it is, rather than who dominates politically.

I'm sorry you dislike them. It is indeed politicized (hard to get around
that), but I am still interested in trying to figure out what happened as
well as what is happening. I hope that I am approaching it from a
standpoint that does not attempt to re-distribute or equalize the
popularity, but rather an attempt to try to understand something that I
perceive.

> Dunno if that helps, or makes them bigger?

You mean the cracks in my head? No,they're getting bigger all the time!

Douglas M. Jole

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

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On Sun, 25 Jul 1999, Jon Freeman wrote:

> Mick Tems <mari...@argonet.co.uk> wrote

> >Go to the National Eisteddfod on Llangefni next week and you'll
> > find traditional music there every day, which you certainly wouldn't
> > have done a few years ago.

> I suspect that this would be a bit difficult for Douglas but I might well be
> there.

Anybody want to spot me a ticket? It's not too expensive to fly from St.
John's, after all, and I'll just tell my Folk Lit. class to read their
*&^$ assignments instead of coming to class for that week... :)

> PS Thanks for the excellent post, I was hoping that you would come in on
> this thread.

I also thank you for your posting, Mick. It was very informative and
enlightening on certain points. Diolch yn fawr ac pob lwc i chwi!

Douglas M. Jole

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Jul 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/25/99

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On Sat, 24 Jul 1999, Jon Freeman wrote:
> Since I moved back to this area in 1978, I have been very involved (regular
> floor singer and session player at various venues, part of the resident
> group/ organisation in 1 folk club, founder member of another folk club and
> of 2 sessions) in the local folk scene, and although I met a few players of
> the Irish dance music fairly early on, it wasn't until about 1988 that I
> started to meet people who played the Welsh dance music.
>
> With the exception of one session in Bangor that tries to keep to the Welsh
> music.
> The sessions in this area are mixed but the majority of the music that gets
> played is Irish not Welsh.

This is a curious phenomenon, especially when (as Jon Freeman mentioned
before) people playing Welsh dance music of particular types are perceived
as playing Scottish/Irish tunes! Why is Irish dance music (for example)
so well known by these musicians, and reels/jigs/etc. assumed by some
Welsh listeners to be a part of Irish (but not Welsh) music?

Jeremy Main

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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Mick Tems wrote in message ...
>IWe've been playing Welsh music around the world for more than 20 years,

and it's been fascinating to watch the increasing outside interest in our
traditions. You might like to check out our Celfyddydau Mari Arts site at
www.folkwales.org.uk for an overview.

><snip>

>The triple harp, usually regarded as the traditional harp of Wales, is a
dance instrument. The man you have to talk to is Robin Huw Bowen, who has
done so much to restore it to its rightful place. Robin's got a variety of
CDs out and also appears on the new Crasdant CD on the Sain label with Huw
Williams (clogs), Stephen Rees (fiddle) and Andy McLoughlin (flute). Robin
plays concerts all over the world and tells hugely entertaining stories
about the music; he has also delved deeply into the gipsy link with the
instrument (it was just about portable enough to be carried on the player's
back!) and had learned tunes from the last surviving player of the gipsy
line, Eldra Jarman, who still lives in Cardiff.

Not to mention the Roberts brothers of Ar Log, and Llio Rhydderch, all three
students of Nansi Richards. OK, they're none of them true rom, but the line
continues with Llio's students - see Fflach records on
http://westwales.co.uk/fflach.htm

One distinction I would make between the Welsh and the other Gaelic nations
is the depth of knowledge of their traditional music in the original
language among the general population: none of the Irish "the words are
lost" here! It still plays an integral part of community life, whether in
gymanfa canu, the rugby club, or in nursery rhymns, and even the non-Welsh
speakers get by, at least in our part of the Swansea valley.

Gwarchodwch yr cobra...

Ciaran De Bhal

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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I Concur.........An Beirt Againn

Colm Mac Cárthaigh wrote in message <7n56v9$4er$1...@fire.medianet.ie>...
>"An beirt againn"
>

Jon Freeman

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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Jeremy Main <wana...@wanadoo.be> wrote

> One distinction I would make between the Welsh and the other Gaelic
> nations is the depth of knowledge of their traditional music in the
> original language among the general population: none of the Irish "the
> words are lost" here! It still plays an integral part of community life,
> whether in gymanfa canu, the rugby club, or in nursery rhymns, and
> even the non-Welsh speakers get by, at least in our part of the Swansea
> valley.

The most common song in the Welsh language that I hear "performed" by the
general population is Calon Lan. There can be quite an outbreak of this in
some pubs after they have had too much to drink. It is generally sung at
least 10 times over in between songs about a lady from Glamorgan etc. I must
admit that I have been known to join in when my vocal chords have had
sufficient lubrication.

As regards the non Welsh speakers like myself, I think that there are many
of us who are quite capable of singing some the songs with great feeling but
absolutely no idea as to what we are singing about.

Jon

Jon Freeman

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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Douglas M. Jole <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote

> > They co-exist in Wales, just as they do in Ireland and Scotland.

Ireland
> > has the same classical influences present in its indigenous music and
> > literature as does Wales. Attempting to use the dance music to make
> > distinctions obfuscates the reality. Both popular and classical music
> > traditions have co-existed in all three countries.
>
> Yes, this is true. However, I am pointing out that if you ask most people
> in English speaking areas about Welsh music, they are likely to either
> look blankly at you, murmur something about Tom Jones, harps, or men's
> choirs, or the like. Very few will whip out the latest recording by
> Gorky's Zygotic Mynki, or Pedwar Yn Y Bar, or the like. I am discussing
> the *perception* of what Welsh music is.

Here is a very short extract from a fairly recent email that I received from
somebody who lives in the US regarding folk music in the British Isles:

"I hadn't given much thought to Wales because my stereotypic associations
are of the wonderful chorus and harp tradition."

Jon

Douglas M. Jole

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

to

On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Jon Freeman wrote:
> Here is a very short extract from a fairly recent email that I received from
> somebody who lives in the US regarding folk music in the British Isles:
>
> "I hadn't given much thought to Wales because my stereotypic associations
> are of the wonderful chorus and harp tradition."

Exactly what I am wondering about, Jon. Surely there is more to it than
harps and choirs (lovely and popular though they may be), and why can't I
find any at Fred's down on Duckworth street? :)

Mick Tems

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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In article <7ng9vo$k...@news3.euro.net>, "Jeremy Main" <wana...@wanadoo.be>
wrote:

>
> Not to mention the Roberts brothers of Ar Log, and Llio Rhydderch, all
> three
> students of Nansi Richards. OK, they're none of them true rom, but the
> line
> continues with Llio's students - see Fflach records on
> http://westwales.co.uk/fflach.htm
>

Oh yes! Llio's record is essential listening, as is Nansi's... if anyone can
get hold of it these days. Now there's a challenge for Sain or Fflach: The
CD re-release of The Art Of Nansi Richards.

ghost

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Jul 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/26/99

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In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.990723...@plato.ucs.mun.ca> "Douglas M. Jole" <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> writes:

>d) the history of religion in the principality privileged choral (think of
>the image of Welsh choirs), and harp music (very classical in sound
>and treatment) also seems more associated with Wales than the dance music,
>although I don't know (yet) why this is so.

>Anybody out there who can fill in the gaps/cracks?

Well, the Welsh triple-harp music as played by Robin Huw Bowen doesn't
sound classical at all; very spritely & danceable, very sparkly tone.
Bowen says that the triple-harp had all but died out when he took it up;
one of his teachers is Nanci Roberts (I think I've got the name right; or
is it Richards? 1st name *is* spelled Nanci, at any rate), the last
Welsh Traveller harpist & a gold-mine of melodies.

Bowen says the triple-harp was the original concert-harp for
European classical music (probably back in the Baroque-era days?) but got
compeletly supplanted by the current concert harp, & Welsh harpists picked up
the concert harp too. The triple-harp gives you sharps & flats in the
center row of strings, I believe.

Bowen, in interviews, says he got turned on to Welsh trad music when he
at 18 (or so) went to a concert, I think by Steeleye Span, & came away
completely captivated by the opening act, which was Allen Stivell.
He was all set to learn Breton music when he thought
"wait; don't *we* have our own traditional music?"

As for Welsh Choirs; yeah, they're pretty formal, but still & all the
singing is usually done with a *lot* more vigor (& often far less vibrato)
than you hear from classical choirs. (A pen-pal of mine has been sending
me a *lot* of the best of Gymhanka <sp?> tapes. Lot of great traditional
tunes on there with their melodies completely intact through the
mostly un-fussy 3-part arrangements.) And the basis of the choirs is in
the churh-related Plygain singing, which still goes on & carries on a
centuries-old tradition (& not a tradition of the privileged classes, either.)

Jeremy Main

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Jul 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/27/99

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Jon Freeman wrote in message ...

Depends how far west of Cardiff you've gone...

Jon Freeman

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Jul 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/27/99

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Douglas M. Jole <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.95.990725...@plato.ucs.mun.ca...

> On Sat, 24 Jul 1999, Jon Freeman wrote:
> > Since I moved back to this area in 1978, I have been very involved
(regular
> > floor singer and session player at various venues, part of the resident
> > group/ organisation in 1 folk club, founder member of another folk club
and
> > of 2 sessions) in the local folk scene, and although I met a few players
of
> > the Irish dance music fairly early on, it wasn't until about 1988 that I
> > started to meet people who played the Welsh dance music.
> >
> > With the exception of one session in Bangor that tries to keep to the
Welsh
> > music.
> > The sessions in this area are mixed but the majority of the music that
gets
> > played is Irish not Welsh.
>

> This is a curious phenomenon, especially when (as Jon Freeman mentioned
> before) people playing Welsh dance music of particular types are perceived
> as playing Scottish/Irish tunes! Why is Irish dance music (for example)
> so well known by these musicians, and reels/jigs/etc. assumed by some
> Welsh listeners to be a part of Irish (but not Welsh) music?

I think that Mick Tems has explained why the Welsh music is not known by
many Welsh people but here are a few suggestions as regards to the awareness
of Irish music in my area:

My first real encounter with folk music of any sort was from the TV in the
60s when the Clancey Brothers and Tommy Makem had a series. The Dubliners
also charted in the popular music. Later on there was the Cheiftans. So
there was sufficient media coverage to make everybody aware of Irish music.

In my area, the Welsh music was not played in pubs etc but it is fairly easy
to get to Dublin (I think that you can still do it for around £10 day return
off season as a foot passenger) so a lot of people have visited Ireland and
have heard the "diddle - diddle" stuff in Ireland.

Quite a few of the session players that I first met were not from Wales but
had studied in Bangor University and had opted to stay in this area.

Jon

Frances Evans

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Jul 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/27/99

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In article <7ng9vo$k...@news3.euro.net>, "Jeremy Main" <j...@wanadoo.be> wrote:

> One distinction I would make between the Welsh and the other Gaelic nations
> is the depth of knowledge of their traditional music in the original
> language among the general population: none of the Irish "the words are
> lost" here! It still plays an integral part of community life, whether in
> gymanfa canu, the rugby club, or in nursery rhymns, and even the non-Welsh
> speakers get by, at least in our part of the Swansea valley.

Another distinction between the harp traditions of Wales, Scotland and
Ireland is that the Welsh tradition is unbroken due to the Roberts' (my
ancestor) who fused their gypsy idiom with Welsh idiom. Both the Irish
and Scottish harp traditions went on hiatus to be revived in the 1960's
but use idioms from piping and fiddle playing. Whereas, the Welsh harp
uses embellishments that have been around since the beginning of the 17th
century when the gypsy Owen Brand (1699) arrived in Wales. Thats' what my
sleuthing into my geneology and practice of playing Welsh harp has turned
up.

I met Robin Huw Bowen in March in Ottawa, Canada and attended his harp
workshop and the concert given by Crasdent. There were lots of jigs,
hornpipes and reels, Welsh clog dancing - it was very inspiring to see
this music performed.

For those stateside, Robin is at the gymanfa in Milwaukee in August.

Frances Evans
--
Frances Evans
Intelligent & Creative communications solutions
through traditional and new media.
URL: http://home/goodmedia.com/~fevans

Alan Hardie

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Jul 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/27/99

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On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:23:12 -0400, France...@goodmedia.com
(Frances Evans) wrote:

>
>Another distinction between the harp traditions of Wales, Scotland and
>Ireland is that the Welsh tradition is unbroken due to the Roberts' (my
>ancestor) who fused their gypsy idiom with Welsh idiom. Both the Irish
>and Scottish harp traditions went on hiatus to be revived in the 1960's
>but use idioms from piping and fiddle playing.

I've read that Scottish harp playing died out around the 1820's whilst
Irish harp playing died out in the 1840's, both being revived in step
1890's.

==========================================
Alan Hardie
<<remove *x* from email address to reply>>
==========================================

Jeremy Main

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Jul 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/27/99

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ghost wrote in message <7nipta$964$1...@canon.das.harvard.edu>...

<Snip>

For the uninitiated, the Italians invented the Arpa Doppia (double harp)
with semitones in the second row (no, they don't play for Llanelli, before
anyone asks). This was then followed with a triple harp, where the outer
rows are tuned diatonically in unison, with the chromatic accidentals offset
in the middle: to reach them, the harper has to pull an outer string off
without it sounding, which is why it's not a beginners instrument...
The advantage of the double diatonic row is that the triple harper has a
"unison" fingering at his disposal (playing the same notes on each side), in
addition to the usual ornaments (trills etc: RCM Rudiments Grade 5, if you
need to see what the odd squiggles that occasionally appear actually mean!).
This produces a superbly pure echo effect unique to the triple harp.
IMO the best CD for a newcomer to the instrument, on grounds of basic
repertoire and clarity of playing, is Cheryl Ann Fulton's The Airs of Wales
(Koch, 3-7071-2 H1) - sorry, Robin, I know you've done your best to see off
the competition, but truth is truth....
In passing, I thought I knew Steeleye's repertoire backwards, but I just
can't place anything Welsh in it - please educate me to my E-mail.

Eric Root

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Jul 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/27/99

to

With respect to Welsh music, I also don't know it very well. In
addition to the reasons others have given, I think Welsh music would be
a lot more popular if:

1) There were a big trad band (a la the Chieftains) touring all over
the world (they could stop short of recording with Tom Jones, though, if
you ask me).

2) Rock bands from Wales (or of Welsh descent elsewhere) could add
electrified triple harps and pibcorns to their electric basss and
drumkits, and turn their volume knobs up to "fatal to small birds and
animals."

3) The Boys of the Lough could add a Welsh player.

4) And on a more serious note, someone could dig up a mammoth tune
collection by one of those cited Welsh captains (the preferred rank for
publishing tunebooks).

On a different note (har har, I just slay myself (as I slap myself on

the knee)), Jeremy Main wrote:

>For the uninitiated, the Italians invented the Arpa Doppia (double
harp) with semitones in the second row<

My sister has (IIRC) the Spanish version of one of these! The set-up is
pretty clever: two rows of strings offset about a quarter inch apart,
one row spaced like the white keys of a piano and the other spaced like
the black keys.

-Eric Root

"No need to use that concertina, son; no one here will hurt you..."

Jon Freeman

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Jul 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/28/99

to

Jeremy Main <wana...@wanadoo.be> wrote

> For the uninitiated, the Italians invented the Arpa Doppia (double harp)

> with semitones in the second row (no, they don't play for Llanelli, before
> anyone asks).

I am one of the few that might have been daft enough to ask that question
but I don't think that the Llanelli second row have ever been famous enough
to be sung about unlike the Pontypool front row - where is Max Boyce now?

While I'm in a silly (drunk) mood, I saw a word Gymhanka somewhere in this
thread - I'm glad that it wasn't Gymkhana as it would lead me to questioning
the origins of the Horses Branle again.

Jon

andrasda

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Jul 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/28/99

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On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:12:16 -0230, "Douglas M. Jole"
<g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Jon Freeman wrote:
>> Here is a very short extract from a fairly recent email that I received from
>> somebody who lives in the US regarding folk music in the British Isles:
>>
>> "I hadn't given much thought to Wales because my stereotypic associations
>> are of the wonderful chorus and harp tradition."
>
>Exactly what I am wondering about, Jon. Surely there is more to it than
>harps and choirs (lovely and popular though they may be), and why can't I
>find any at Fred's down on Duckworth street? :)
>

Two words: commit them to memory: Careg Lafar. The band will shake you
up. Powerful stuff. They've been to Atlanta twice now, and shocked us
out of complacency.

andrasda

Contact address: Careg Lafar

Antwn Owen Hicks/Linda Owen Jones
10 Stryd Eyre, Sblot, Caerdydd, CF2 2JR Cymru

or
Rhian Evan Jones

52 Stryd Bailey, Ton Pentre, Rhondda, Rhondda Cynon Taf, CF41 7EN
Cymru
>
>

ryan...@tc.umn.edu

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Jul 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/28/99

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Eric Root wrote:
>
> With respect to Welsh music, I also don't know it very well. In
> addition to the reasons others have given, I think Welsh music would be
> a lot more popular if:
>
> 1) There were a big trad band (a la the Chieftains) touring all over
> the world (they could stop short of recording with Tom Jones, though,
> if you ask me).

Don't leave out the dancing girls, though--the dancing girls are
essential. And don't forget to do the occassional "art" performance with
celebrated Welsh poets.

> 2) Rock bands from Wales (or of Welsh descent elsewhere) could add
> electrified triple harps and pibcorns to their electric basss and
> drumkits, and turn their volume knobs up to "fatal to small birds and
> animals."

Don't make the big hair mistake, though. Shaved heads, or at the very
least orange hair. And one band member in a kilt with Doc Martins in a
suitably fashionable color is a must. Contrasting the hair color with
the Doc Martins is dead brilliant. And of course, you can never
have enough Celtic tatoos, especially if you are following the forumula
with a female lead singer.

>
> 3) The Boys of the Lough could add a Welsh player.

Or the Battlefield Band.

Said Welsh player should come with a ready made "great legend" behind
them, about how they were discovered by the band when only a wee two year
old virtuouso...rakes and rogues only! No New Age girly men need apply.

> 4) And on a more serious note, someone could dig up a mammoth tune
> collection by one of those cited Welsh captains (the preferred rank for
> publishing tunebooks).

WWWWeeeeelllllll now....I think this is it really. The real reason why
Welsh music is less popular than Irish music is because there is a major
government conspiracy behind this. There actually WAS a mammoth tune
collection by a Welsh captain, but there was a little known English plot
against him, hatched during the heady days of the 1798 Irish
rebellion. It seems he was mistaken for Plunkett. The poor man was
captured backstage, while jotting down the dots at the last of the
Belfast Harp festivals. The English couldn't read music, so they
arrested him, under suspicion of plotting against the queen...

Janet Ryan

ghost

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Jul 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/28/99

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In article <iesn3.9187$ts3.2...@nnrp4.clara.net> "Jon Freeman" <jonb...@freeuk.com> writes:

>While I'm in a silly (drunk) mood, I saw a word Gymhanka somewhere in this
>thread - I'm glad that it wasn't Gymkhana as it would lead me to questioning
>the origins of the Horses Branle again.

It should have been Gymfana or Cymfana or something like that.
A singing festival, not a singing-horse festival.

Jon Freeman

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Jul 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/28/99

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ghost <j...@deas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:7nn2j5$ra1$1...@canon.das.harvard.edu...

Fortunately for me, it does look as if you did see my drunken sense of
humour - the mental pictures of the horses singing, dancing and if you used
my original spelling of branle, fighting greatly amused me.

Jon

Jeremy Main

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99

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Alan Hardie wrote in message <379de9b1...@news.clara.net>...

Hmm....at least the Northumbrians never broke their tradition, even if it is
still very weak. Given that the Communn na Clarsach has a Borders chapter,
even the most died-in-the-wool folk traditionalist must allow the Scots a
recovery of loaned material, in the best border traditions.

Jeremy Main

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99

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Eric Root wrote in message
<13966-37...@newsd-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...

With respect to Welsh music, I also don't know it very well. In
addition to the reasons others have given, I think Welsh music would be
a lot more popular if:

1) There were a big trad band (a la the Chieftains) touring all over
the world (they could stop short of recording with Tom Jones, though, if
you ask me).

2) Rock bands from Wales (or of Welsh descent elsewhere) could add

electrified triple harps and pibcorns to their electric basss and
drumkits, and turn their volume knobs up to "fatal to small birds and
animals."

3) The Boys of the Lough could add a Welsh player.

4) And on a more serious note, someone could dig up a mammoth tune

collection by one of those cited Welsh captains (the preferred rank for
publishing tunebooks).

On a different note (har har, I just slay myself (as I slap myself on

the knee)), Jeremy Main wrote:

>For the uninitiated, the Italians invented the Arpa Doppia (double
harp) with semitones in the second row<

My sister has (IIRC) the Spanish version of one of these! The set-up is

pretty clever: two rows of strings offset about a quarter inch apart,
one row spaced like the white keys of a piano and the other spaced like
the black keys.

-Eric Root

"No need to use that concertina, son; no one here will hurt you..."

Just on the offchance we're still being serious before p.ing off on holiday,
Andrew Lawrence-King is developing a fine thread of doppia Spanish tunes in
the Early Music world: find his Luz e Norte CD for her for Christmas. If
you're looking for Welsh sources, the nineteenth-century collections are
occasionally reproduced in very expensive facsimile editions by Clive
Morley, Berkeley Square, London, and most Salvi harp franchises stock
tunebooks.

Bob Cameron

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99

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ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:

snip

It seems he was mistaken for Plunkett. The poor man was

> captured backstage, while jotting down the dots at the last of the
> Belfast Harp festivals. The English couldn't read music, so they
> arrested him, under suspicion of plotting against the queen...
>
> Janet Ryan

in 1798, wouldn't it have been King George III still ?

Royce Lerwick

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Jul 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM7/29/99

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On 29 Jul 1999 00:15:09 GMT, "Jeremy Main" <wana...@wanadoo.be>
wrote:

>"No need to use that concertina, son; no one here will hurt you..."

Unless you use the concertina.

Royce

Brian Stafford

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Aug 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/2/99

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ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:

> WWWWeeeeelllllll now....I think this is it really. The real reason why
> Welsh music is less popular than Irish music is because there is a major

> government conspiracy behind this. There actually WAS a mammoth tune

> collection by a Welsh captain, but there was a little known English plot
> against him, hatched during the heady days of the 1798 Irish

> rebellion. It seems he was mistaken for Plunkett. The poor man was

> captured backstage, while jotting down the dots at the last of the
> Belfast Harp festivals. The English couldn't read music, so they
> arrested him, under suspicion of plotting against the queen...

A touch inflammatory is this not? I thought r.m.c was all for political
correctness, equal treatment of all cultures and complete freedom
from xenophobia.

If the English can't read music, to whom do the music shops in England
sell all that manuscript?

The best bit about government conspiracies is, of course, that they can
neither be proven nor disproven.
--
Brian

Douglas M. Jole

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Aug 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/2/99

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On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Brian Stafford wrote:

> ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:
> > WWWWeeeeelllllll now....I think this is it really. The real reason why
> > Welsh music is less popular than Irish music is because there is a major

(few lines snipped to save space)...

> > Belfast Harp festivals. The English couldn't read music, so they
> > arrested him, under suspicion of plotting against the queen...
>
> A touch inflammatory is this not? I thought r.m.c was all for political

Actually, I thought that Janet was making a joke here.

John Fenton

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Aug 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/2/99

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In message <379AE1...@tc.umn.edu>
ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:

> Hello John,
>
> Apparently something in the tone of my post caused you to interpret it in
> a way I didn't intend. It was not my intention to alienate or aggravate,
> but apparently something in what I said has irritated you. ...

[all the rest snipped for brevity, refer to previous postings in this
thread if still interested/awake].

Hello Janet,

Yes, it's true.

This is really deviating from the topic in hand so I'll try to be
brief. I found your post a shade sanctimonious and condescending. I
normally try to be less blunt so if you didn't intend it to be like
that, I apologize. Of course, you are entitled to express your
opinions and to deviate as far off-topic as the terms of the news
group permits; I did, in fact, state as much (though not so long-
windedly).

I thought it ironic that you should chastize Douglas for using the
term 'British Isles' when you, also, seem (IMO) to trample on
others' sensibilities.

Your rejection of the term 'British Isles' saddens me since it seems
to be so particularly appropriate in this newsgroup on a number of
counts. Your suggested alternative is feeble in comparison (IMO). You
vehemently suggest that the term 'British' in this context equates to
'British' as in 'British Empire'. I believe this is incorrect. However,
if you were to convince me that you were correct, I would not use the
term in future. Can you demonstrate what you say is true and not just
an anti-British 'knee-jerk reaction' (to use your expression? (Whatever,
this is probably not the appropriate forum for extensive discussion.)

You mention Yeats being described as an 'English' writer. I had
similar pause for thought when I heard Conan Doyle similarly described.
I wondered if the person stating this meant to imply that he was, in
effect, English because he spent most of his life and did most of his
writing in the South of England. It is easy to become oversensitive in
these matters, though. In the end, I decided that they meant a writer
who wrote in the English language. (This may or may or may not apply
in the case you mention and I do not intend to imply that it does.)

As far as I understand your thesis, I think you were saying that Celtic
music suffered because of repression of Celtic language. Although
such repression undoubtedly took place the timing and mechanism were
very different in the three countries mentioned (and, why have we
forgotten Man and Cornwall? - because Douglas didn't mention them, I
suppose). Mick Tems summary with regard to Wales accords with what I
have read (and is admirably brief, informative and comprehensible -
and uplifting).

Doubtless, in simplifying your position I have rendered it simplistic
but, even so, I think the historical situation is very much more complex
than you have acknowledged. For a parallel divorced from that
archipelago-in-North-West-Europe-of-which-Britain-and-Ireland-(in-
alphabetical-order)-are-the-two-main-islands we might look at the
decline of Gaelic in Nova Scotia. If I have understood correctly,
Nova Scotia and Newfoundland must, at one time, have seemed as though
they might become new world Celtic countries but now Celtic culture is
on the wane. (Of course, I hope that I am wrong about that but that was
the conclusion of a Gaelic language TV program I saw recently.) Perhaps
some or many of the reasons for this decline are actually the same
reasons that pertained back here (that's my here not your here, unless
you're here, too). In any event, that brings us back to
Douglas who surely must have a valuable point of view on this!

--
John Fenton http://www.gnarumen.demon.co.uk/
==============================================================
This message sent using an Acorn Risc PC 600 (+StrongARM)
Acorn : RISC based desktop computers since 1987

ghost

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Aug 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/3/99

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In article <7nlgva$o...@news3.euro.net> "Jeremy Main" <j...@wanadoo.be> writes:
>
>In passing, I thought I knew Steeleye's repertoire backwards, but I just
>can't place anything Welsh in it - please educate me to my E-mail.

Never said there *was* anything Welsh in their repertoire, though there
may be. Bowen says he went to see them from general interest, then fell
in love with the sound of their opening act for that engagement, Alan Stivell,
on semi-Celtic harp playing Breton music, then started getting into
*Welsh* harp music, as opposed to Stivell's Breton.

paul draper

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Aug 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/4/99

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ghost <j...@deas.harvard.edu> wrote in message

news:7o7l36$eh2$1...@canon.das.harvard.edu...

It's beside the point but I think 'Please to See the King' was from
Pembrokeshire and then there is the 'Gower Wassail'.

--
Paul Draper

0171 369 2754

Douglas M. Jole

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Aug 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/5/99

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On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, John Fenton wrote:
> Doubtless, in simplifying your position I have rendered it simplistic
> but, even so, I think the historical situation is very much more complex
> than you have acknowledged. For a parallel divorced from that
> archipelago-in-North-West-Europe-of-which-Britain-and-Ireland-(in-
> alphabetical-order)-are-the-two-main-islands we might look at the
> decline of Gaelic in Nova Scotia. If I have understood correctly,
> Nova Scotia and Newfoundland must, at one time, have seemed as though
> they might become new world Celtic countries but now Celtic culture is
> on the wane. (Of course, I hope that I am wrong about that but that was
> the conclusion of a Gaelic language TV program I saw recently.) Perhaps
> some or many of the reasons for this decline are actually the same
> reasons that pertained back here (that's my here not your here, unless
> you're here, too). In any event, that brings us back to
> Douglas who surely must have a valuable point of view on this!

I'll take the pass for a second, but then afterwards I'll give the ball to
others who are actually from those areas to speak for themselves (since I
am actually from the west coast of the USA)----
I have a classmate who is a native of Cape Breton Island (town of
Kingsville), and a Gaelic Speaker, and the information I relate is from
speaking to him and asking about his experiences. Though his grandparents
were Gaelic speakers, his parents were not. In the early 20th century,
Gaelic was seen as backwards, and those who wanted to make a good living
learned English. Thus, his father learned no Gaelic at home. This was
the attitude of an entire generation, pretty much.
It was not until the last two decades (1980s and on) before the Gaelic
language in Nova Scotia began to lose some of the stigma it had before,
and become desirable to the up and coming generations *in the area*
(versus those coming in from other areas for the summer Gaelic school, and
so on). It is still seen as kind of a "hobby" language, but interest in
*using* the language is growing (as distinct from just knowing it or
speaking it) among the younger generations, especially recently.
There are many interested in the language in the area, but of those, few
would consider themselves fluent, all have English as their first
language, and most economic opportunity is, of course, elswhere. The
state of the language is currently in a holding pattern: Gaelic is cool
right now, but it remains to be seen if the interest is just a fad, or if
it will start to grow a bit in the current generation.
(any errors in the above generalization are ENTIRELY my own)

As for Newfoundland...there was a colony of Scottish Gaelic speakers on
the SouthWest Coast (the Codroy valley area), but Irish Gaelic never
caught on. (see "The Last Stronghold : Scottish Gaelic Traditions in
Newfoundland" by Margaret Bennett for information on this. Bennet is the
mother of Martyn Bennett, for those interested). In Newfoundland, most
Gaelic speakers seemed to be quickly assimilated into English speaking
areas and communities (and many Irish merely passed through here on their
way out the British empire into the United States).
See the following books for information on Irish in Newfoundland:
McCarthy, M.J.: The Irish in Newfoundland, 1623-1800.
Mannion, J.J.: The Irish Migrations to Newfoundland.

Apart from the above, I plead only a little surface knowledge of the
subject; there are people on this group who are better sources than
myself.

John Fenton

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Aug 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/5/99

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In message <Pine.OSF.3.95.990805...@plato.ucs.mun.ca>

"Douglas M. Jole" <g76...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> wrote:

[snip, then related observations of a Nova Scotian acquaintance]

> In the early 20th century,
> Gaelic was seen as backwards, and those who wanted to make a good living
> learned English. Thus, his father learned no Gaelic at home. This was
> the attitude of an entire generation, pretty much.
> It was not until the last two decades (1980s and on) before the Gaelic
> language in Nova Scotia began to lose some of the stigma it had before,
> and become desirable to the up and coming generations *in the area*
> (versus those coming in from other areas for the summer Gaelic school, and
> so on). It is still seen as kind of a "hobby" language, but interest in
> *using* the language is growing (as distinct from just knowing it or
> speaking it)

This seems to agree very much with the presenters of 'the Emigrants'
TV programme except that no mention was made of a resurgence of interest.
I think they were interested in Gaelic(*) as a first language.

My own family, of which I know very little, seem probably to have moved
from Mull (Inner Hebrides) to the Firth of Clyde (near Glasgow) during
the last century. They seem to have prospered as middle class Victorians
and have passed on not a single word of Gaelic. I suspect (but am
unlikely ever to know) that they held the same attitudes, described above.

(* ie Scots Gaelic)

Jeremy Main

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Aug 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/7/99

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paul draper wrote in message <7o967f$7b3$1...@nclient7-gui.server.ntli.net>...

Thanks - to live is to learn

Mick Tems

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Aug 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/13/99

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In article <7oi0g1$j...@news3.euro.net>, "Jeremy Main" <wana...@wanadoo.be>
wrote:
>
>

Hi Paul,
Yes, The King (as it is known in english-speaking Pembrokeshire) is a local
ritual song. It also has Welsh language equivalents (Hela'r Dryw Bach,
Hunting the little wren))from the Welsh-speaking north of the county. The
Gower Wassail was a particular ritual song for a tradition last practised
regularly by the Gower Nightingale, Phil Tanner of Llangennith. For details,
which I haven't got time to lay out here (sorry!) watch out for the
soon-to-be-established Gower Garland page and the archive section on our
website (address below). Try and catch the Gower Garland show, which will be
previewed at Pontardawe Festival next weekend (Sat Aug 21) and which should
feature at the National Folk Festival in April 2000.
Mick