Steely Dan vs. Horace Silver
Gidi Avrahami
A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the
first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords,
which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose
That Number."
But exactly.
--Gidi
karl nordstrom
did a version of Duke's East Saint Louis Toodeloo (sp?). I wonder if they
used any other jazz in their music?
Anthony Corman
Hmm...so Horace somehow transported himself forward ~25 years and
managed to return both himself *and* the montuno lick to the
past...remarkable, Captain!
;) ;) ;)
Sandeep Mehta
> gi...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
Oh good! I now know for sure that my ears weren't hearing the wrong
thing! Given that the Horace Silver record was made in '63-'64 and
that Steely Dan probably recorded their tune around '72-'74 (or so?)
I'm kind of surprised that it took all of 10 yrs to for Silver to get
ripped off (by a bunch of hip rockers) :-) :-)
/sandeep
--
Sandeep Mehta sme...@nynexst.com
jim hori
They produced an excellent hard-bop style
blowing session LP called "Apogee" featuring
the tenors of Warne Marsh and Pete Christlieb
for Warners. I could quibble with the rhythm
section but other than that I like the album
a lot.
Will Sadler
Not quite exactly. Song For My Father is in Fminor and Rikki is in
Eminor.
It is a definite bow towards Silver. Plagiarism is the most sincere
form of flattery.
The Dan also put in a nice E9 chord which is really a Emi9(b11) [if
there can be such a monster] if you consider the underlying harmony
at that point to be minor and not major.
Will
--
***************************************************************************
* _______________\|/_ Will Sadler wi...@cica.indiana.edu *
* Laser 44888 /|\ sad...@indiana.bitnet *
***************************************************************************
"Where's jazz going? I don't know? Maybe it's going to hell.
You can't make anything go anywhere. It just happens." Monk
Alan McKay
Add to the Becker/Fagan jazz portfolio co-production duties on an interesting
Warne Marsh-Pete Christlieb recording _Apogee_ (mainly a blowing session, but
quite fun, imo.), and something they did with Woody Herman and Chick Corea...
(I can't recall much about this, other than it has an intersting cover, with
each of them sitting in vintage automobiles, I believe)
....al
w.a. mckay
desert research institute
reno, nevada
John Thomas
|> In article <93145.15...@psuvm.psu.edu> karl nordstrom <KX...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
|> >I hear that Steely Dan's members were Jazz fans (well at least Fagan). They
|>
|>
|> Add to the Becker/Fagan jazz portfolio co-production duties on an interesting
|> Warne Marsh-Pete Christlieb recording _Apogee_ (mainly a blowing session, but
But what a "blowing session." Their lines contrast and meld wonderfully, with
Christlieb being obviously the more fiery of the two but not necessarily
the more interesting. Also check out CONVERSATIONS WITH WARNE VOL. 1
on Criss Cross, I believe, which even made Bob Rusch's best-of-the-year list
of 1991 in Cadence.
In terms of duo-sax, small-ensemble, bop recordings these are up there with
the best. Also, perhaps the best of the current lot available is NE PLUS
ULTRA, which is quickly turning into an alltime favorite of mine.
Bruce Steinberg
I knew the '80s were over when wi...@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Will Sadler) said,
Yo! In <1993May25.1...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> gi...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
Yo!
Yo! >A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the
Yo! >first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords,
Yo! >which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose
Yo! >That Number."
Yo!
Yo! Not quite exactly. Song For My Father is in Fminor and Rikki is in
Yo! Eminor.
Yo!
Yo! It is a definite bow towards Silver. Plagiarism is the most sincere
Yo! form of flattery.
Yo! <...>
////////////////
Steely Dan paid similar "tribute" to Cannonball Adderley with their use of an
obvious quote from "Jive Samba" as a signature horn-section hook throughout
their later tune "Home at Last" (from "Aja").
I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that
Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying
homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from
a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original
cats or their estates.
This kind of homage is more than a four-bar quote in an improvised solo, or
even a '90s-style digital sample; it's an intrinsic and identifiable part of
the tune's musical structure.
--
Bruce Steinberg (uunet!sco!bruces, bru...@sco.com)
The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
Bruce Steinberg
I knew the '80s were over when al...@sierra.unr.edu (Alan McKay) said,
Yo!
Yo! <...>
Yo!
Yo! Add to the Becker/Fagan jazz portfolio co-production duties on an interesting
Yo! Warne Marsh-Pete Christlieb recording _Apogee_ (mainly a blowing session, but
Yo! quite fun, imo.), and something they did with Woody Herman and Chick Corea...
Yo! (I can't recall much about this, other than it has an intersting cover, with
Yo! each of them sitting in vintage automobiles, I believe)
Yo!
//////////////////
Leave it to you to remember this particular album, Alan. :-) It was called
"Donald and Walter and Chick and Woody" (reminiscent of "Bob and Carol and Ted
and Alice" -- the metaphor is left to the reader), produced by Dr. Herb Wong,
and issued on Palo Alto Jazz around 1979/1980 -- a real sleeper, and a great
concept piece. (I don't recall that Fagen and Becker were actually involved
in any way, however.)
The album consisted of six Fagen/Becker Steely Dan tunes ("Aja," "Peg," etc.),
three on each side, arranged and performed respectively by Chick Corea and his
group (Side 1) and Woody Herman and his Thundering Herd (Side 2).
I actually discovered this album as a submission to the Grammy album-packaging
nominating committee and fell in love with it just for the concept and
execution of the cover. It was a great illustration of these four cool
penguins cruising along this endless, flat landscape in a top-down Coupe de
Ville convertible, up to their hubcaps in early-morning tule fog. Pretty much
said it all, and I personally voted it number 1 (great concept, great
execution).
John Howells
<I knew the '80s were over when wi...@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Will Sadler) said,
<Yo! In <1993May25.1...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> gi...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
<Yo!
<Yo! >A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the
<Yo! >first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords,
<Yo! >which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose
<Yo! >That Number."
<Yo!
<Yo! Not quite exactly. Song For My Father is in Fminor and Rikki is in
<Yo! Eminor.
<Yo!
<Yo! It is a definite bow towards Silver. Plagiarism is the most sincere
<Yo! form of flattery.
<Yo! <...>
<////////////////
<I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that
<Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying
<homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from
<a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original
<cats or their estates.
There is a Steely Dan bootleg floating about that features a live
version of "Rikki" and in that version Donald Fagen quite obviously
quotes a lot more of "Song For My Father" between the verses.
--
John Howells
how...@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov
Marc Sabatella
> I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that
> Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying
> homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from
> a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original
> cats or their estates.
I'm not familiar with "Home at Last" or the Cannonball tune you say it borrowed
from, but I do know "Rikki" and "Song For My Father", and I have to say, the
borrowed lick in question is hardly worth crediting. Just the I and V
alternating on beats 1 and 3 with an eighth note pickup. Practically every
bossa nova or samba ever played has used that pattern. I don't deny that it is
hard to hear one of these two tunes without thinking of the other, but I think
what makes for the obvious recognition here is that it at least somewhat
unusual to start with the bass so prominent.
> This kind of homage is more than a four-bar quote in an improvised solo, or
> even a '90s-style digital sample; it's an intrinsic and identifiable part of
> the tune's musical structure.
Recognition-wise, perhaps. Musically, no. A four-bar quote in an improvised
solo virtually always is enough to uniquely identify the particular composition
or recording quoted. The Song/Rikki lick is so pervasive in Latin/Rock music,
I can't imagine anyone trying to claim "ownership" of it.
A similar case might be made, for, say, the first note of Richard Strauss'
"Also Sprach Zarathustra" (you know, the theme from the movie "2001: A Space
Odyssey"). Just that one, ominous sounding unison (open fifth?) is instantly
identifiable, and I could imagine another piece "quoting" that one note in a
way that was as "obvious" as Rikki's quote of Song, but I would hardly expect
Strauss' estate to claim they owned a copyright on all instances of exposed
unisons (assuming his works were still protected by the Berne convention, which
they almost certainly are not). It's just too darn obvious.
--
Marc Sabatella
ma...@fc.sde.hp.com
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Jeff Miller
I read somewhere that Michael Jackson ripped off the Rikki lick for some
tune on the Thriller album. Billie Jean perhaps?
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
| |
| jmi...@terra.colostate.edu | Jeff Miller | TERRA Lab Systems Admin. |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|
Brian Lindsay
>Just to go even more on a tangent...
>
>I read somewhere that Michael Jackson ripped off the Rikki lick for some
>tune on the Thriller album. Billie Jean perhaps?
>
>--
I've never heard that one... However, I did read something about Fagen/Becker
"ripping off" Kieth Jarrett. I believe it was the song Gaucho (sp?), which
borrowed something from Jarrett's Belonging LP (I think the track was "As long as
you know you're living yours").
There was some kind of lawsuit and/or out-of-court settlement in Jarrett's favor.
Anyone know any more details? Does Jarrett get any songwriting credit on the more recent
pressings of the Steely Dan disc?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above are solely those of Brian Lindsay
--------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Steinberg
I knew the '80s were over when ma...@fc.sde.hp.com (Marc Sabatella) said,
Yo! Bruce Steinberg (bru...@sco.COM) wrote:
Yo!
Yo! > I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that
Yo! > Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying
Yo! > homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from
Yo! > a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original
Yo! > cats or their estates.
Yo!
Yo! I'm not familiar with "Home at Last" or the Cannonball tune you say it borrowed
Yo! from, but I do know "Rikki" and "Song For My Father", and I have to say, the
Yo! borrowed lick in question is hardly worth crediting. Just the I and V
Yo! alternating on beats 1 and 3 with an eighth note pickup. Practically every
Yo! bossa nova or samba ever played has used that pattern. I don't deny that it is
Yo! hard to hear one of these two tunes without thinking of the other, but I think
Yo! what makes for the obvious recognition here is that it at least somewhat
Yo! unusual to start with the bass so prominent.
Yo!
Yo! > This kind of homage is more than a four-bar quote in an improvised solo, or
Yo! > even a '90s-style digital sample; it's an intrinsic and identifiable part of
Yo! > the tune's musical structure.
Yo!
Yo! Recognition-wise, perhaps. Musically, no. A four-bar quote in an improvised
Yo! solo virtually always is enough to uniquely identify the particular composition
Yo! or recording quoted. The Song/Rikki lick is so pervasive in Latin/Rock music,
Yo! I can't imagine anyone trying to claim "ownership" of it.
Yo!
Yo! A similar case might be made, for, say, the first note of Richard Strauss'
Yo! "Also Sprach Zarathustra" (you know, the theme from the movie "2001: A Space
Yo! Odyssey"). Just that one, ominous sounding unison (open fifth?) is instantly
Yo! identifiable, and I could imagine another piece "quoting" that one note in a
Yo! way that was as "obvious" as Rikki's quote of Song, but I would hardly expect
Yo! Strauss' estate to claim they owned a copyright on all instances of exposed
Yo! unisons (assuming his works were still protected by the Berne convention, which
Yo! they almost certainly are not). It's just too darn obvious.
Yo!
////////////////
Marc, your points are well taken, but if you re-read my posting,
I was not suggesting that anyone should be suing over these
Steely Dan tunes, nor that anyone would have a compelling legal
case if they did (although if you're not familiar with "Home at
Last" and "Jive Samba," I'd be curious what you think after
checking them out :).
Rather, I was just saying that if an artist/composer wishes to
truly "pay homage" to an older tune (and presumably its composer)
by borrowing significantly from it, there is a simple way to make
that "payment" real and meaningful: acknowledge and split some
equitable share of writing credits (and therefore, royalty
income) proportional to the contribution to the later tune.
(I've known successful songwriters who would give, say, five or
ten percent of the writer royalties to another writer who simply
came up with a great title, or hook, or premise -- and, of
course, many more who wouldn't. :)
You're certainly correct that a I-V bass line is no basis for a
lawsuit. But on the real side, if most people familiar with
"Song for My Father" immediately think of ~that particular tune~
-- and not a hundred other generic montuno songs -- when they
hear "Rikki, Don't Lose That Number," it's a pretty good bet that
the "reference" by a couple of talented, jazz-knowledgeable
writer/arrangers who know what they're doing is intentional and
no accident.
To me, the issue is ethical rather than litigious, but
nonetheless (and eminently) a practical one for all concerned.
It shouldn't be about (or get down to) suing.
If someone makes serious commercial money from a tune obviously
based on a relatively "inside" jazz composition, one would like
to see the seminal writer share in the fruits of those sales --
especially when the second-generation writers are clearly hip to
what they're using and doing. (It wouldn't even have to be song
royalties, which might give lawyers problems, but some other real
consideration.)
All I'm saying is that it'd be nice to think that Horace Silver
or Cannonball were able to pay a few months' rent from large
sales of tunes derived from their musical inspirations to
mainstream audiences who never heard of -- or bought -- "Song for
My Father" or "Jive Samba."
Marc Sabatella
> I was not suggesting that anyone should be suing over these
> Steely Dan tunes, nor that anyone would have a compelling legal
> case if they did ...
> Rather, I was just saying that if an artist/composer wishes to
> truly "pay homage" to an older tune (and presumably its composer)
> by borrowing significantly from it, there is a simple way to make
> that "payment" real and meaningful: acknowledge and split some
> equitable share of writing credits (and therefore, royalty
> income) proportional to the contribution to the later tune.
I understand your concern, but I think it is unreasonable. I would consider it
more than sufficient to simply list someone in the acknowledgements, or if the
influence was particularly strong, put "based in part on a composition ..."
after the title. But I think sharing income in the cases we are discussing -
like "Rikki Don't Lose That Number", is going way overboard. Ethically as well
as legally. If you want to do it, fine, but I wouldn't suspect someone's
ethics if they didn't. No more than I suspect, say, Kenny G's ethics for not
donating half the proceeds from his albums to poor starving jazz musicians. It
would be nice, but hardly expected.
Someone else observes:
>If Gershwin's estate would sue every artist that used "rhythm changes" in their
>tunes (I got Rhythm), everyone from Sonny Rollins (oleo), to
>Monk,(rhythm-a-ning) to even John Scofield (Grace Under Pressure)
>and just about every other Jazz musician would be guilty a plagarism.
Except that the courts have specifically ruled that chord progressions may not
be copyrighted. Yet melodies can. Sometimes this is a shame; I think of the
chord progression to "Giant Steps" as far more tangible intellectual property
than, say, the melody to "C Jam Blues".
william.j.hery
>more than sufficient to simply list someone in the acknowledgements, or if the
>influence was particularly strong, put "based in part on a composition ..."
>after the title. But I think sharing income in the cases we are discussing -
>like "Rikki Don't Lose That Number", is going way overboard. Ethically as well
>as legally. If you want to do it, fine, but I wouldn't suspect someone's
>ethics if they didn't.
I'm not familiar with the Steely Dan piece, so I don't know how much
"influence" there was, but I do know of one case in which a law suit was
successful: in Chick Corea's improvised intro to the original version of
SPAIN (on one of the early Return to Forever albums), he freely quotes
the Adagio movement from Rodrigo's CONCIERTO DE ARANJUEZ. Rodrigo was
still alive and won a auit against him for copyright infringement. Corea
claims that he didn't know the piece and probalby heard it some time in the
past. He thought the quoting was sub-concious and unintentional (which would
have no legal bearing if it were true). Given the fame of Miles version
of the piece (on SKETCHES OF SPAIN), however, I find Corea's claim to be
suspect.
Bill Hery
AT&T Bell Labs
201-386-2362
he...@att.COM
Marc Sabatella
> I do know of one case in which a law suit was
> successful: in Chick Corea's improvised intro to the original version of
> SPAIN (on one of the early Return to Forever albums), he freely quotes
> the Adagio movement from Rodrigo's CONCIERTO DE ARANJUEZ.
Chick's quote was an order of magnitude more significant than Steely Dan's.
Chick quoted about 16 measures worth of melody, harmony, and rhythm. Donald
Fagen quoted two repeated notes: the bass intro to "Song For My Father".
> Corea
> claims that he didn't know the piece and probalby heard it some time in the
> past. He thought the quoting was sub-concious and unintentional (which would
> have no legal bearing if it were true). Given the fame of Miles version
> of the piece (on SKETCHES OF SPAIN), however, I find Corea's claim to be
> suspect.
Completely unbelievable. I'm surprised he would even suggest such a thing.
I could understand a single phrase being borrowed subconsciously, but he
grabbed about 30 seconds worth of music.
Another famous case of copyright infringement was against George Harrison for
the song "My Sweet Lord", which bore a remarkable resemblance to an older tune
that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case.
Musically, this was somewhere between the Silver/Dan or Rodrigo/Corea
influence. Hearing the songs back to back, the similarity was obvious, right
down to the background vocals ("Hallelujah" versus "Doo-lang Doo-lang
Doo-lang"). But the music itself was just a ii-V vamp with a rather trite
three-note riff on top. There is no doubt in my mind that copyright
infringement occurred in this case, but if quoting "subconsciously and
unintentionally" was any legal defense, I might have been lenient with
Harrison.
BTW, the courts do occassionally consider it significant to determine whether
an infringement occurrred "willfully" or not. An infringement is an
infringement, to be sure, but the amount of damages awarded can be affected by
this determination. That is one reason why, despite the Berne convention,
people are encouraged to put the little copyright symbol (C) or (P) on
published works. A work is copyrighted as a matter of fact, no registration or
other action required, but registration helps establish ownership and the
presence of the copyright symbol helps invalidate the claim "but I thought the
work was public domain".
william.j.hery
>Another famous case of copyright infringement was against George Harrison for
>the song "My Sweet Lord", which bore a remarkable resemblance to an older tune
>that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case.
Harrison lost. He's So Fine was one of those Motown "girls group" songs
from the early 60s. Harrison claimed he didn't know the song, but must have
heard it and used it subconciously. Sounds just like Corea's excuse for Spain.
Gidi Avrahami
>>that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case.
>Harrison lost. He's So Fine was one of those Motown "girls group" songs
Not fine: nice. ``He's so nice, sugar and spice.''
--Gidi
Steve Berman
--Gidi
Not nice: fine. "He's so fine (doowang^3)...gonna make him mine..."
--Steve
Marc Sabatella
Yeah, but what about that line "He's so fine, wish he were mine"?
You know, I almost called it "He's So Shy", before realizing that was something
else entirely.
Anyhow, I find George's claim that the borrowing was subconscious MUCH more
believable than Chick's, due to the trite nature of what Harrison borrowed.