A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords, which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose That Number."
I hear that Steely Dan's members were Jazz fans (well at least Fagan). They did a version of Duke's East Saint Louis Toodeloo (sp?). I wonder if they used any other jazz in their music?
In article <1993May25.180240.29...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> g...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
>A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the >first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords, >which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose >That Number."
>But exactly.
>--Gidi
Hmm...so Horace somehow transported himself forward ~25 years and managed to return both himself *and* the montuno lick to the past...remarkable, Captain!
> g...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes: > A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the > first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords, > which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose > That Number."
> But exactly.
Oh good! I now know for sure that my ears weren't hearing the wrong thing! Given that the Horace Silver record was made in '63-'64 and that Steely Dan probably recorded their tune around '72-'74 (or so?) I'm kind of surprised that it took all of 10 yrs to for Silver to get ripped off (by a bunch of hip rockers) :-) :-)
In article <93145.150716K...@psuvm.psu.edu> karl nordstrom <K...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: >I hear that Steely Dan's members were Jazz fans (well at least Fagan). They >did a version of Duke's East Saint Louis Toodeloo (sp?). I wonder if they >used any other jazz in their music?
They produced an excellent hard-bop style blowing session LP called "Apogee" featuring the tenors of Warne Marsh and Pete Christlieb for Warners. I could quibble with the rhythm section but other than that I like the album a lot.
In <1993May25.180240.29...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> g...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
>A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the >first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords, >which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose >That Number."
Not quite exactly. Song For My Father is in Fminor and Rikki is in Eminor.
It is a definite bow towards Silver. Plagiarism is the most sincere form of flattery.
The Dan also put in a nice E9 chord which is really a Emi9(b11) [if there can be such a monster] if you consider the underlying harmony at that point to be minor and not major.
Will -- *************************************************************************** * _______________\|/_ Will Sadler w...@cica.indiana.edu * * Laser 44888 /|\ sad...@indiana.bitnet * *************************************************************************** "Where's jazz going? I don't know? Maybe it's going to hell. You can't make anything go anywhere. It just happens." Monk
In article <93145.150716K...@psuvm.psu.edu> karl nordstrom <K...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: >I hear that Steely Dan's members were Jazz fans (well at least Fagan). They
Add to the Becker/Fagan jazz portfolio co-production duties on an interesting Warne Marsh-Pete Christlieb recording _Apogee_ (mainly a blowing session, but quite fun, imo.), and something they did with Woody Herman and Chick Corea... (I can't recall much about this, other than it has an intersting cover, with each of them sitting in vintage automobiles, I believe)
....al w.a. mckay desert research institute reno, nevada
In article <1993May26.154127.7...@physics.unr.edu>, a...@sierra.unr.edu (Alan McKay) writes:
|> In article <93145.150716K...@psuvm.psu.edu> karl nordstrom <K...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: |> >I hear that Steely Dan's members were Jazz fans (well at least Fagan). They |> |> |> Add to the Becker/Fagan jazz portfolio co-production duties on an interesting |> Warne Marsh-Pete Christlieb recording _Apogee_ (mainly a blowing session, but |> quite fun, imo)
But what a "blowing session." Their lines contrast and meld wonderfully, with Christlieb being obviously the more fiery of the two but not necessarily the more interesting. Also check out CONVERSATIONS WITH WARNE VOL. 1 on Criss Cross, I believe, which even made Bob Rusch's best-of-the-year list of 1991 in Cadence.
In terms of duo-sax, small-ensemble, bop recordings these are up there with the best. Also, perhaps the best of the current lot available is NE PLUS ULTRA, which is quickly turning into an alltime favorite of mine.
I knew the '80s were over when w...@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Will Sadler) said, Yo! In <1993May25.180240.29...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> g...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes: Yo! Yo! >A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the Yo! >first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords, Yo! >which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose Yo! >That Number." Yo! Yo! Not quite exactly. Song For My Father is in Fminor and Rikki is in Yo! Eminor. Yo! Yo! It is a definite bow towards Silver. Plagiarism is the most sincere Yo! form of flattery. Yo! <...> ////////////////
Steely Dan paid similar "tribute" to Cannonball Adderley with their use of an obvious quote from "Jive Samba" as a signature horn-section hook throughout their later tune "Home at Last" (from "Aja").
I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original cats or their estates.
This kind of homage is more than a four-bar quote in an improvised solo, or even a '90s-style digital sample; it's an intrinsic and identifiable part of the tune's musical structure. -- Bruce Steinberg (uunet!sco!bruces, bru...@sco.com) The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
I knew the '80s were over when a...@sierra.unr.edu (Alan McKay) said, Yo! Yo! <...> Yo! Yo! Add to the Becker/Fagan jazz portfolio co-production duties on an interesting Yo! Warne Marsh-Pete Christlieb recording _Apogee_ (mainly a blowing session, but Yo! quite fun, imo.), and something they did with Woody Herman and Chick Corea... Yo! (I can't recall much about this, other than it has an intersting cover, with Yo! each of them sitting in vintage automobiles, I believe) Yo! //////////////////
Leave it to you to remember this particular album, Alan. :-) It was called "Donald and Walter and Chick and Woody" (reminiscent of "Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice" -- the metaphor is left to the reader), produced by Dr. Herb Wong, and issued on Palo Alto Jazz around 1979/1980 -- a real sleeper, and a great concept piece. (I don't recall that Fagen and Becker were actually involved in any way, however.)
The album consisted of six Fagen/Becker Steely Dan tunes ("Aja," "Peg," etc.), three on each side, arranged and performed respectively by Chick Corea and his group (Side 1) and Woody Herman and his Thundering Herd (Side 2).
I actually discovered this album as a submission to the Grammy album-packaging nominating committee and fell in love with it just for the concept and execution of the cover. It was a great illustration of these four cool penguins cruising along this endless, flat landscape in a top-down Coupe de Ville convertible, up to their hubcaps in early-morning tule fog. Pretty much said it all, and I personally voted it number 1 (great concept, great execution). -- Bruce Steinberg (uunet!sco!bruces, bru...@sco.com) The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
<I knew the '80s were over when w...@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Will Sadler) said, <Yo! In <1993May25.180240.29...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> g...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes: <Yo! <Yo! >A few days ago I heard Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" for the <Yo! >first time. Imagine my surprise when I heard the opening chords, <Yo! >which are *exactly* the same as the opening for "Ricky Don't Lose <Yo! >That Number." <Yo! <Yo! Not quite exactly. Song For My Father is in Fminor and Rikki is in <Yo! Eminor. <Yo! <Yo! It is a definite bow towards Silver. Plagiarism is the most sincere <Yo! form of flattery. <Yo! <...> <////////////////
<I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that <Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying <homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from <a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original <cats or their estates.
There is a Steely Dan bootleg floating about that features a live version of "Rikki" and in that version Donald Fagen quite obviously quotes a lot more of "Song For My Father" between the verses.
Bruce Steinberg (bru...@sco.COM) wrote: > I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that > Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying > homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from > a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original > cats or their estates.
I'm not familiar with "Home at Last" or the Cannonball tune you say it borrowed from, but I do know "Rikki" and "Song For My Father", and I have to say, the borrowed lick in question is hardly worth crediting. Just the I and V alternating on beats 1 and 3 with an eighth note pickup. Practically every bossa nova or samba ever played has used that pattern. I don't deny that it is hard to hear one of these two tunes without thinking of the other, but I think what makes for the obvious recognition here is that it at least somewhat unusual to start with the bass so prominent.
> This kind of homage is more than a four-bar quote in an improvised solo, or > even a '90s-style digital sample; it's an intrinsic and identifiable part of > the tune's musical structure.
Recognition-wise, perhaps. Musically, no. A four-bar quote in an improvised solo virtually always is enough to uniquely identify the particular composition or recording quoted. The Song/Rikki lick is so pervasive in Latin/Rock music, I can't imagine anyone trying to claim "ownership" of it.
A similar case might be made, for, say, the first note of Richard Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" (you know, the theme from the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey"). Just that one, ominous sounding unison (open fifth?) is instantly identifiable, and I could imagine another piece "quoting" that one note in a way that was as "obvious" as Rikki's quote of Song, but I would hardly expect Strauss' estate to claim they owned a copyright on all instances of exposed unisons (assuming his works were still protected by the Berne convention, which they almost certainly are not). It's just too darn obvious.
-- Marc Sabatella m...@fc.sde.hp.com -- All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
I read somewhere that Michael Jackson ripped off the Rikki lick for some tune on the Thriller album. Billie Jean perhaps?
-- ___________________________________________________________________________ __ | | | jmil...@terra.colostate.edu | Jeff Miller | TERRA Lab Systems Admin. | |__________________________________________________________________________ ___|
In article <Jun01.053922.47...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> jmil...@terra.colostate.edu (Jeff Miller) writes:
>Just to go even more on a tangent...
>I read somewhere that Michael Jackson ripped off the Rikki lick for some >tune on the Thriller album. Billie Jean perhaps?
>--
I've never heard that one... However, I did read something about Fagen/Becker "ripping off" Kieth Jarrett. I believe it was the song Gaucho (sp?), which borrowed something from Jarrett's Belonging LP (I think the track was "As long as you know you're living yours").
There was some kind of lawsuit and/or out-of-court settlement in Jarrett's favor. Anyone know any more details? Does Jarrett get any songwriting credit on the more recent pressings of the Steely Dan disc? -- -------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed above are solely those of Brian Lindsay --------------------------------------------------------------
I knew the '80s were over when m...@fc.sde.hp.com (Marc Sabatella) said, Yo! Bruce Steinberg (bru...@sco.COM) wrote: Yo! Yo! > I've never checked the credits closely on either "Rikki, Don't Lose that Yo! > Number" or "Home at Last," but it'd be nice to think that ~truly~ paying Yo! > homage in cases like these would take the form of some real dough derived from Yo! > a few nominal points of actual writers' royalties bestowed to the original Yo! > cats or their estates. Yo! Yo! I'm not familiar with "Home at Last" or the Cannonball tune you say it borrowed Yo! from, but I do know "Rikki" and "Song For My Father", and I have to say, the Yo! borrowed lick in question is hardly worth crediting. Just the I and V Yo! alternating on beats 1 and 3 with an eighth note pickup. Practically every Yo! bossa nova or samba ever played has used that pattern. I don't deny that it is Yo! hard to hear one of these two tunes without thinking of the other, but I think Yo! what makes for the obvious recognition here is that it at least somewhat Yo! unusual to start with the bass so prominent. Yo! Yo! > This kind of homage is more than a four-bar quote in an improvised solo, or Yo! > even a '90s-style digital sample; it's an intrinsic and identifiable part of Yo! > the tune's musical structure. Yo! Yo! Recognition-wise, perhaps. Musically, no. A four-bar quote in an improvised Yo! solo virtually always is enough to uniquely identify the particular composition Yo! or recording quoted. The Song/Rikki lick is so pervasive in Latin/Rock music, Yo! I can't imagine anyone trying to claim "ownership" of it. Yo! Yo! A similar case might be made, for, say, the first note of Richard Strauss' Yo! "Also Sprach Zarathustra" (you know, the theme from the movie "2001: A Space Yo! Odyssey"). Just that one, ominous sounding unison (open fifth?) is instantly Yo! identifiable, and I could imagine another piece "quoting" that one note in a Yo! way that was as "obvious" as Rikki's quote of Song, but I would hardly expect Yo! Strauss' estate to claim they owned a copyright on all instances of exposed Yo! unisons (assuming his works were still protected by the Berne convention, which Yo! they almost certainly are not). It's just too darn obvious. Yo! ////////////////
Marc, your points are well taken, but if you re-read my posting, I was not suggesting that anyone should be suing over these Steely Dan tunes, nor that anyone would have a compelling legal case if they did (although if you're not familiar with "Home at Last" and "Jive Samba," I'd be curious what you think after checking them out :).
Rather, I was just saying that if an artist/composer wishes to truly "pay homage" to an older tune (and presumably its composer) by borrowing significantly from it, there is a simple way to make that "payment" real and meaningful: acknowledge and split some equitable share of writing credits (and therefore, royalty income) proportional to the contribution to the later tune. (I've known successful songwriters who would give, say, five or ten percent of the writer royalties to another writer who simply came up with a great title, or hook, or premise -- and, of course, many more who wouldn't. :)
You're certainly correct that a I-V bass line is no basis for a lawsuit. But on the real side, if most people familiar with "Song for My Father" immediately think of ~that particular tune~ -- and not a hundred other generic montuno songs -- when they hear "Rikki, Don't Lose That Number," it's a pretty good bet that the "reference" by a couple of talented, jazz-knowledgeable writer/arrangers who know what they're doing is intentional and no accident.
To me, the issue is ethical rather than litigious, but nonetheless (and eminently) a practical one for all concerned. It shouldn't be about (or get down to) suing.
If someone makes serious commercial money from a tune obviously based on a relatively "inside" jazz composition, one would like to see the seminal writer share in the fruits of those sales -- especially when the second-generation writers are clearly hip to what they're using and doing. (It wouldn't even have to be song royalties, which might give lawyers problems, but some other real consideration.)
All I'm saying is that it'd be nice to think that Horace Silver or Cannonball were able to pay a few months' rent from large sales of tunes derived from their musical inspirations to mainstream audiences who never heard of -- or bought -- "Song for My Father" or "Jive Samba." -- Bruce Steinberg (uunet!sco!bruces, bru...@sco.com) The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Bruce Steinberg (bru...@sco.COM) wrote: > I was not suggesting that anyone should be suing over these > Steely Dan tunes, nor that anyone would have a compelling legal > case if they did ... > Rather, I was just saying that if an artist/composer wishes to > truly "pay homage" to an older tune (and presumably its composer) > by borrowing significantly from it, there is a simple way to make > that "payment" real and meaningful: acknowledge and split some > equitable share of writing credits (and therefore, royalty > income) proportional to the contribution to the later tune.
I understand your concern, but I think it is unreasonable. I would consider it more than sufficient to simply list someone in the acknowledgements, or if the influence was particularly strong, put "based in part on a composition ..." after the title. But I think sharing income in the cases we are discussing - like "Rikki Don't Lose That Number", is going way overboard. Ethically as well as legally. If you want to do it, fine, but I wouldn't suspect someone's ethics if they didn't. No more than I suspect, say, Kenny G's ethics for not donating half the proceeds from his albums to poor starving jazz musicians. It would be nice, but hardly expected.
Someone else observes:
>If Gershwin's estate would sue every artist that used "rhythm changes" in their >tunes (I got Rhythm), everyone from Sonny Rollins (oleo), to >Monk,(rhythm-a-ning) to even John Scofield (Grace Under Pressure) >and just about every other Jazz musician would be guilty a plagarism.
Except that the courts have specifically ruled that chord progressions may not be copyrighted. Yet melodies can. Sometimes this is a shame; I think of the chord progression to "Giant Steps" as far more tangible intellectual property than, say, the melody to "C Jam Blues".
-- Marc Sabatella m...@fc.sde.hp.com -- All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
>I understand your concern, but I think it is unreasonable. I would consider it >more than sufficient to simply list someone in the acknowledgements, or if the >influence was particularly strong, put "based in part on a composition ..." >after the title. But I think sharing income in the cases we are discussing - >like "Rikki Don't Lose That Number", is going way overboard. Ethically as well >as legally. If you want to do it, fine, but I wouldn't suspect someone's >ethics if they didn't.
I'm not familiar with the Steely Dan piece, so I don't know how much "influence" there was, but I do know of one case in which a law suit was successful: in Chick Corea's improvised intro to the original version of SPAIN (on one of the early Return to Forever albums), he freely quotes the Adagio movement from Rodrigo's CONCIERTO DE ARANJUEZ. Rodrigo was still alive and won a auit against him for copyright infringement. Corea claims that he didn't know the piece and probalby heard it some time in the past. He thought the quoting was sub-concious and unintentional (which would have no legal bearing if it were true). Given the fame of Miles version of the piece (on SKETCHES OF SPAIN), however, I find Corea's claim to be suspect.
Bill Hery AT&T Bell Labs 201-386-2362 h...@att.COM
william.j.hery (w...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com) wrote: > I do know of one case in which a law suit was > successful: in Chick Corea's improvised intro to the original version of > SPAIN (on one of the early Return to Forever albums), he freely quotes > the Adagio movement from Rodrigo's CONCIERTO DE ARANJUEZ.
Chick's quote was an order of magnitude more significant than Steely Dan's. Chick quoted about 16 measures worth of melody, harmony, and rhythm. Donald Fagen quoted two repeated notes: the bass intro to "Song For My Father".
> Corea > claims that he didn't know the piece and probalby heard it some time in the > past. He thought the quoting was sub-concious and unintentional (which would > have no legal bearing if it were true). Given the fame of Miles version > of the piece (on SKETCHES OF SPAIN), however, I find Corea's claim to be > suspect.
Completely unbelievable. I'm surprised he would even suggest such a thing. I could understand a single phrase being borrowed subconsciously, but he grabbed about 30 seconds worth of music.
Another famous case of copyright infringement was against George Harrison for the song "My Sweet Lord", which bore a remarkable resemblance to an older tune that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case. Musically, this was somewhere between the Silver/Dan or Rodrigo/Corea influence. Hearing the songs back to back, the similarity was obvious, right down to the background vocals ("Hallelujah" versus "Doo-lang Doo-lang Doo-lang"). But the music itself was just a ii-V vamp with a rather trite three-note riff on top. There is no doubt in my mind that copyright infringement occurred in this case, but if quoting "subconsciously and unintentionally" was any legal defense, I might have been lenient with Harrison.
BTW, the courts do occassionally consider it significant to determine whether an infringement occurrred "willfully" or not. An infringement is an infringement, to be sure, but the amount of damages awarded can be affected by this determination. That is one reason why, despite the Berne convention, people are encouraged to put the little copyright symbol (C) or (P) on published works. A work is copyrighted as a matter of fact, no registration or other action required, but registration helps establish ownership and the presence of the copyright symbol helps invalidate the claim "but I thought the work was public domain".
-- Marc Sabatella m...@fc.sde.hp.com -- All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
m...@fc.sde.hp.com (Marc Sabatella) writes: >Another famous case of copyright infringement was against George Harrison for >the song "My Sweet Lord", which bore a remarkable resemblance to an older tune >that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case.
Harrison lost. He's So Fine was one of those Motown "girls group" songs from the early 60s. Harrison claimed he didn't know the song, but must have heard it and used it subconciously. Sounds just like Corea's excuse for Spain.
Bill Hery AT&T Bell Labs 201-386-2362 h...@att.COM
w...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (william.j.hery) writes: >>that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case. >Harrison lost. He's So Fine was one of those Motown "girls group" songs
Not fine: nice. ``He's so nice, sugar and spice.''
In article <1993Jun10.172457.15...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> g...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
w...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (william.j.hery) writes: >>that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case. >Harrison lost. He's So Fine was one of those Motown "girls group" songs
Not fine: nice. ``He's so nice, sugar and spice.''
--Gidi
Not nice: fine. "He's so fine (doowang^3)...gonna make him mine..."
Gidi Avrahami (g...@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU) wrote: > w...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (william.j.hery) writes: > >>that I think was called "He's So Fine". I don't recall who won this case. > >Harrison lost. He's So Fine was one of those Motown "girls group" songs > Not fine: nice. ``He's so nice, sugar and spice.''
Yeah, but what about that line "He's so fine, wish he were mine"?
You know, I almost called it "He's So Shy", before realizing that was something else entirely.
Anyhow, I find George's claim that the borrowing was subconscious MUCH more believable than Chick's, due to the trite nature of what Harrison borrowed.
-- Marc Sabatella m...@fc.sde.hp.com -- All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
|
