Influence of Ravel and Debussy
byron
I have heard jazz musicians refer to works by Ravel and Debussy as
important influences on their music. Can anyone provide specific pieces
that are especially worthwhile?
Byron
Keith Hedger
Boy, you opened a kettle of fish here. I can't recommend any pieces but I
can relate a story that you might find interesting...then again you might
not...
I was in college in 1992 (I was an older student) and I was in a 'form and
analysis' music theory class. Now, for years I've heard jazz players say
they were influenced by DeBussey and Ravel and I've never understood
exactly what they meant. In this class we were study the music of these
two to learn about the period between the the romantics and the German
school of Shoenberg.
One of the aspects of this music we were paying attention to was these
composers' use of 'exotic' elements to move beyond common practice
theory....whole tone scales, indian and middle easter influences, etc.
As we listened to our teacher perform a Debussey chanson one day I noticed
that he was stressing a particular passage, which meant that we were to
pay attention to it and would be discussing it. As I listened I suddenly
started laughing to myself because I realized that alot of the harmonic
devices he was using were things that are common to jazz musicians whole
tone scales, what we call lydian flat 7 scales, chord extensions, etc.
It was at that point that I understood what the musicians I had read about
meant about the impressionists influence on them musically....
keith
In article <01bd1fad$87683a40$bb6c1dce@bvandenberg>, "byron"
Tom Croft
I don't know whether these are the ones that have influenced the jazz
musicians you mentioned, but here are a few I've really enjoyed (I
don't have the CDs in front of me, so please excuse my possibly
terrible French spellings):
1. Ravel, "Introduction and Allegro for Harp, String Quartet,
Clarinet, and Flute" (one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've
ever heard)
2. Ravel, "Daphnis and Chloe" (an incredible 55-minute masterpiece!)
3. Ravel, "Pavane for a Dead Princess" (pretty and poignant)
4. Ravel, "Le Tambeau de Couperin" (especially the movement called
"Menuet")
5. Ravel, "Rapsody Espanol" (Spanish Rapsody)
6. Debussy, "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun" (beautiful!)
7. Debussy, "La Mer" (Debussy's famous tribute to the sea)
8. Debussy, "Images for Orchestra" and "Nocturnes for Orchestra"
9. Debussy, "Preludes" (solo piano works; a lot of jazz lovers seem to
appreciate these)
10. Debussy, "Suite Burgamesque" (I think the famous Claire de Lune is
one movement of this, if my memory serves me correclty, or maybe it
comes from the "Children's Corner Suite")
11. Debussy, "Children's Corner Suite"
There are some chamber works and many other piano works that I haven't
explored very well yet that I know are excellent (especially trios for
flute, piano, and cello, and other combinations). Perhaps the reason
the jazz musicians you mentioned like these composers is that they
have an incredibly advanced concept of harmony. The harmony of
"impressionistic" works can be quite complex--lots of surprises and
unexpected twists and turns. This music includes beautiful use of
higher intervals (9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc.). Lots of "color." Check
it out; you won't regret it.
Tom
On 12 Jan 1998 23:14:14 GMT, "byron" <bvand...@springnet1.com>
John Monroe
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Tom Croft wrote:
> I don't know whether these are the ones that have influenced the jazz
> musicians you mentioned, but here are a few I've really enjoyed [snip]:
> 2. Ravel, "Daphnis and Chloe" (an incredible 55-minute masterpiece!)
Actually, I'm pretty sure that this tune has had a *direct* influence on
Jazz. One of its central melodies bears an *uncanny* resemblance to
Kenton's "Artistry in Rhythm" (ya-da, da-da-doo-da, yah-da... you know the
one I mean). I'm pretty surprised nobody else has noticed this -- I can't
decide whether it's because I'm prone to auditory hallucinations or
because Kenton fans haven't usually heard much Ravel (and vice versa).
John Monroe.
Kelly Bucheger
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, John Monroe wrote, regarding Ravel's Daphnis And
Chloe:
> Actually, I'm pretty sure that this tune has had a *direct* influence on
> Jazz. One of its central melodies bears an *uncanny* resemblance to
> Kenton's "Artistry in Rhythm" (ya-da, da-da-doo-da, yah-da... you know the
> one I mean). I'm pretty surprised nobody else has noticed this -- I can't
> decide whether it's because I'm prone to auditory hallucinations or
> because Kenton fans haven't usually heard much Ravel (and vice versa).
I can't say as to whether or not you're prone to auditory hallucinations,
but in the case of Artistry in Rhythm your senses are not deceiving you.
I know that the Ravel connection to this tune has been noted by numerous
jazz commentators over the years; Michael Sparke, in the notes to Mosaic's
43-47 Kenton set, writes:
"The melody bears resemblance to a theme from the ballet music Daphnis And
Chloe (2nd Suite) by Maurice Ravel. Kenton's chief copyist Clinton Roemer
told me he mentioned the connection to Stan at Balboa in 1941, but Stan
said that he had never heard the work."
I haven't been following this thread, but I hope somebody mentioned Sonny
Rollins' 1956 performance of My Reverie, based on Debussy's Reverie, which
is itself a wee bit reminiscent of the Ravel theme...
Kelly Bucheger
http://www-cs.canisius.edu/~bucheger/JazzPages.html
Fabio Rojas
Here is an example of a direct influence.
I once took a course at UC Berkeley in jazz performance.
one of the tune we worked on was "Footprints" by Wayne Shorter,
which for anyone who hasn't heard it, is a very haunting
melody. There are are a number of measure in the tune
which are silent. The pianist, being new to jazz, did not
know quite know how to fill in the space. The instructor who is known
for in class histrionics, stopped immediatley and said :
"Do you know who Ravel is?", the student answered "yes".
"Do you know who Debussy is?", the student answered yes again.
the instructor then proceeded to give a mini-lecture on impressionism
in music and a demonstrationof some Ravel on piano. He then told
the pianist "Play like that". He did.
A more direct influence I cannot imagine.
Fabio
Keith Myath
I found a very strong Ravel influence on "Mingus plays piano"
WHich happens to be one of the most intense recordings I've ever heard.
Keith
Tom Croft
Although I listen to classical music only a small part of the time, I
really admire the music of both Ravel and Debussy. Ravel's sense of
harmony is just plain inspiring. Also, Gabriel Faure is another
French composer who wrote some fascinating material (try his "Pelius
et Melisande," "Requiem," and "Pavane for Orchestra and Chorus, Opus
50"). Gustav Holst's "The Planets" will also please many jazz fans, I
think. To those on the newsgroup who have not explored these
composers (and Erik Satie--hope I spelled that correclty--as well),
you're in for a real treat!
Tom
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:35:33 -0500, John Monroe
<jmo...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Tom Croft wrote:
>
>> I don't know whether these are the ones that have influenced the jazz
>> musicians you mentioned, but here are a few I've really enjoyed [snip]:
>
>> 2. Ravel, "Daphnis and Chloe" (an incredible 55-minute masterpiece!)
>
>Actually, I'm pretty sure that this tune has had a *direct* influence on
>Jazz. One of its central melodies bears an *uncanny* resemblance to
>Kenton's "Artistry in Rhythm" (ya-da, da-da-doo-da, yah-da... you know the
>one I mean). I'm pretty surprised nobody else has noticed this -- I can't
>decide whether it's because I'm prone to auditory hallucinations or
>because Kenton fans haven't usually heard much Ravel (and vice versa).
>
>John Monroe.
>
>
>
>
yogi
In article <01bd1fad$87683a40$bb6c1dce@bvandenberg>, "byron"
<bvand...@springnet1.com> wrote:
> I have heard jazz musicians refer to works by Ravel and Debussy as
> important influences on their music. Can anyone provide specific pieces
> that are especially worthwhile?
>
> Byron
Oh YES! I picked up "the popular piano works of Debussy and Ravel" LP.
A lot of the stuff I heard was very reminicent of 60's jazz piano-a la
Bill Evans, Herbie, etc.
What a mind bender when I heard it. Those Debussy songs were written in
the late 1800's and at the start of the 1900's. You have got to check out
the solo piano pieces....
Also, Erik Satie has some beautiful compositions that are very
impressionistic, beautiful. A lot of jazz players are impressed on how
Bird plays notes from a harmony that is in the next few bars....Satie does
it as well.