Buddy Bolden
Joe Blotnick
Does anyone have any information about Buddy Bolden? I heard about him at
a Wynton Marsalis concert (Wynton told a whole story) and it seems he may
have originated jazz.
Please E-mail me at bl...@biddeford.com
Thanks.
Ryan Blotnick
Rick Lopez
In article <blot-03059...@bidd5.biddeford.com>, bl...@biddeford.com
(Joe Blotnick) wrote:
Oh Yes: What you want to do is go to your local bookstore and order
Michael Ondaatje's "Coming Through Slaughter," which is a drop-dead
amazing work of poetic biography. A collage of prose, photos, historical
documents, poetry-- absolutely cinematic. Text is all you get w/ Bolden:
No known recordings-- so maybe the heady imagistic roar of Ondaatje's book
makes you hear him anyway. Did it for me. The parade scene where he blows
his heart out through his horn is quite effective.
Let me know if you gitit.
best, RL
--
Coming Soon! BB10K on-line at last! "Baseball & the 10,000 Things:" All-consuming Intellectual Fervor; imaginary worlds; a somewhat interactive are you serious game of twenty-and-then-some questions; the world as my beef-steak tartár; the search for a coherent culture; and more? My ass on a plate. The terms: BB- a silly game / 10K- "the world and its ten-thousand thingsŠ"
[Anyone know the origins of that quote?]
Carlos May
Joe Blotnick (bl...@biddeford.com) wrote:
: Does anyone have any information about Buddy Bolden? I heard about him at
: a Wynton Marsalis concert (Wynton told a whole story) and it seems he may
: have originated jazz.
book: In Search Of Buddy Bolden by Don Marquis
-- Froggy
H. Loess
HAN...@erie.net (Rick Lopez) wrote:
>In article <blot-03059...@bidd5.biddeford.com>, bl...@biddeford.com
>(Joe Blotnick) wrote:
>> Does anyone have any information about Buddy Bolden? I heard about him at
>> a Wynton Marsalis concert (Wynton told a whole story) and it seems he may
>> have originated jazz.
>Oh Yes: What you want to do is go to your local bookstore and order
>Michael Ondaatje's "Coming Through Slaughter," which is a drop-dead
>amazing work of poetic biography. A collage of prose, photos, historical
>documents, poetry-- absolutely cinematic.
Note that while it reads quite nicely as a "poetic biography", this is
in fact a novel. I do recommend it, but would use caution as to taking
it as historical fact.
There was also a book called "In Search of Buddy Bolden", which I
believe was an attempt to reconstruct the history; I've never read it,
but I'm sure there's someone here who could give you the particulars,
as well as a recommendation or critique. (Heck, there's probably
someone here who could sell you a copy autographed by Sigfried and
Roy, if you wanted one.)
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
Dr. Don Koldon
In article <4mmkj4$m...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>, hlo...@pipeline.com (H.
Loess) wrote:
> HAN...@erie.net (Rick Lopez) wrote:
>
> >In article <blot-03059...@bidd5.biddeford.com>, bl...@biddeford.com
> >(Joe Blotnick) wrote:
> >> Does anyone have any information about Buddy Bolden? I heard about him at
> >> a Wynton Marsalis concert (Wynton told a whole story) and it seems he may
> >> have originated jazz.
>
> >Oh Yes: What you want to do is go to your local bookstore and order
> >Michael Ondaatje's "Coming Through Slaughter," which is a drop-dead
> >amazing work of poetic biography. A collage of prose, photos, historical
> >documents, poetry-- absolutely cinematic.
>
<snip>
> There was also a book called "In Search of Buddy Bolden", which I
> believe was an attempt to reconstruct the history; I've never read it,
> but I'm sure there's someone here who could give you the particulars,
> as well as a recommendation or critique. (Heck, there's probably
> someone here who could sell you a copy autographed by Sigfried and
> Roy, if you wanted one.)
>
> --
> Henry L.
> hlo...@pipeline.com
To stretch this a bit, there is a very interesting album which is
"inspired" by Ondaatje's book on Bolden ("Coming Through Slaughter"): "A
Song I Thought I Heard Buddy Sing" - Jerry Granelli - Evidence ECD 22057,
w/ Granelli on drums, Kenny Garrett, alto, Julian Priester, trombone, Bill
Frisell and Robben Ford, guitars, and the recently often discussed on rmb
Anthony Cox on bass. A great record, hard to describe, ... the bloodline
of the blues flows on, etc.
Okay, now I will go completely left field and recommend Granelli's
"Another Place" Intuition 2130 2, w/ Granelli, Priester, Cox, David
Friedman, vibes and marimba, and the IMHO "talent deserving wider
recognition" Jane Ira Bloom on soprano. It has absolutely nothing to do
with Buddy Bolden.
Sorry, I was overtaken by a fit of free association.
--
DK
Larry Koenigsberg
>
>
>Does anyone have any information about Buddy Bolden? I heard about him at
>a Wynton Marsalis concert (Wynton told a whole story) and it seems he may
>have originated jazz.
>
IN SEARCH OF BUDDY BOLDEN: FIRST MAN OF JAZZ by Donald M. Marquis (LSU
Press, 1978) provides an extremely detailed view of the New Orleans scene at
the turn of the century along with considerable anecdotal information on
Bolden -- part of a lengthy local oral-history tradition -- as well that
gleaned from as such records as survive.
The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of hyperbole one
might expect from Mr. Marsalis. Jelly Roll Morton's claim (on his own
behalf) is both more plausible and more charming but who's to say? See
EARLY JAZZ by Gunther Schuller for more detail on this aspect.
Carlos May
Larry Koenigsberg (lar...@efn.org) wrote:
: IN SEARCH OF BUDDY BOLDEN: FIRST MAN OF JAZZ by Donald M. Marquis (LSU
: Press, 1978) provides an extremely detailed view of the New Orleans scene at
: the turn of the century along with considerable anecdotal information on
: Bolden -- part of a lengthy local oral-history tradition -- as well that
: gleaned from as such records as survive.
Yes, the standard reference.
For a few additional bits of info (and heresay), see the Fred Ramsey
article in Vol One No 4 of 78 Quarterly (1989).
: The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of hyperbole one
: might expect from Mr. Marsalis. Jelly Roll Morton's claim (on his own
: behalf) is both more plausible and more charming but who's to say? See
: EARLY JAZZ by Gunther Schuller for more detail on this aspect.
Who's to say? How about other musicians who were around New Orleans at
the time? Hundreds were interviewed for the Oral history projects of the
Jazz Archiveat Tulane University. There are many different opinions
regarding the origins of jazz, but amoung older musicians who thought
jazz came from any person or band in particular, Buddy Bolden's Band is
mentioned more than anyone else.
The interviews aren't on line at present (any millionaires out there
who wish to make a donation so they can be?), but info on the Jazz
Archives is at:
http://www.tulane.edu/~lmiller/JazzHome.html
Hope This Helps!
Ross Lipman
>
>In article <blot-03059...@bidd5.biddeford.com>,
bl...@biddeford.com
>says...
>>
>>
>>Does anyone have any information about Buddy Bolden? I heard about
him at
>>a Wynton Marsalis concert (Wynton told a whole story) and it seems he
may
>>have originated jazz.
>>
>>Please E-mail me at bl...@biddeford.com
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Ryan Blotnick
>
>IN SEARCH OF BUDDY BOLDEN: FIRST MAN OF JAZZ by Donald M. Marquis
(LSU
>Press, 1978) provides an extremely detailed view of the New Orleans
scene at
>the turn of the century along with considerable anecdotal information
on
>Bolden -- part of a lengthy local oral-history tradition -- as well
that
>gleaned from as such records as survive.
>
>The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of
hyperbole one
>might expect from Mr. Marsalis. Jelly Roll Morton's claim (on his own
>behalf) is both more plausible and more charming but who's to say?
See
>EARLY JAZZ by Gunther Schuller for more detail on this aspect.
>
I beg to differ.
First, Buddy Bolden's active career preceeded Jelly Roll Morton's by
several years.
Second, as good and influential as Jelly Roll Morton was, he was only
interested in advanceing his own cause insofar as it would sell his
records and secure concert dates. Mr. Morton's claims first came to
light in the post WWII era during a period of renewed interest in
"original jazz" and its origins. And following a period when Mr.
Morton's personal fortunes were at an ebb.
Third, the strength of "Searching For Buddy Bolden" is that it relies
on oral history. The most common problem to be considered is that
recollections may be hazy as to dates or facts. In this case however,
there were too many widely seperated people basicly saying the same
thing about Bolden (ie; that he was probably the originator of what
developed into Jazz as we know it). More importantly, several
surviving musicians attribute the origins of some important New Orleans
musical standards directly to Bolden.
On the other hand, you are probably correct to be skeptical of
Marsalis's statements. As a native of New Orleans and a keen student
and conservator of it's musical legacy, Wynton's comments should be
taken with a grain of salt.
Ross Lipman
Dale Smoak
Second, as good and influential as Jelly Roll Morton was, he was only
interested in advanceing his own cause insofar as it would sell his
records and secure concert dates. Mr. Morton's claims first came to
light in the post WWII era during a period of renewed interest in
"original jazz" and its origins. And following a period when Mr.
Morton's personal fortunes were at an ebb.
Morton died in 1941. WWII ended in 1945.
--
Dale Smoak | da...@shore.net
| http://www.shore.net/~dales/
OLIVER1923
neworleans.general please post
Larry Koenigsberg made mention in a post that it is more plausible that
Jelly Roll Morton invented jazz. How so and what evidence do you have to
offer?
John McCusker
New Orleans
Be lyin
The notion that any one person "invented" jazz is ludicrous.
Benjamin Lyons
New Orleans
OLIVER1923
That was my point. While Jelly had a style that was unique among the early
jazzmen who recorded in the twenties, he was not the inventor of jazz.
Afterall, jazz was a cultural movement-not a lightbulb, internal
combustion engine or cure for polio. That being said, the man credited by
his contemporaries as being the first jazz band leader in New Orleans was
Charles Buddy Bolden (1877-1931). Maybe he played jazz...maybe he didn't.
Bu the guys who were there said it was Bolden. The oral histories at
Tulane University's jazz archive serve as the best case for Bolden playing
jazz. The only guy I know of who said Bolden didn't play jazz was Morton
who wanted the crown for himself.
John McCusker
New Orleans
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4n3nog$e...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, Ross Lipman writes:
>The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of
>hyperbole one
>>might expect from Mr. Marsalis.
Trina Borras
Terry Hicks -- thi...@pipeline.com asks a perfectly legitimate question:
in the dike? Well, what you've just unknowingly done is ... jank
it out. Or, rather, you know the story of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde?
This seemingly innocent question is the equivalent of whatever it
was Dr. J. used to imbibe before ... but no need to worry, just move
aside, over here with me, quickly, lest you get trampled, for, no, you're
not imagining things, those *are* Rhinosceri on the horizon ...
Trina
Jeff Volkman
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Trina Borras wrote:
> Terry Hicks -- thi...@pipeline.com asks a perfectly legitimate question:
>
> >Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
>
> UH, OH, Terry! You know that little Dutch boy who stuck his finger
> in the dike? Well, what you've just unknowingly done is ... jank
> it out. Or, rather, you know the story of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde?
> This seemingly innocent question is the equivalent of whatever it
> was Dr. J. used to imbibe before ... but no need to worry, just move
> aside, over here with me, quickly, lest you get trampled, for, no, you're
> not imagining things, those *are* Rhinosceri on the horizon ...
That's ridiculous. Next you'll be saying there's some kind of hazing
mentality going on here.
;)
-Jeff
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <17786C7...@IBRDVM1.WORLDBANK.ORG>, Trina Borras writes:
>Terry Hicks -- thi...@pipeline.com asks a perfectly legitimate question:
>
>>
>>>The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of
>>>hyperbole one
>>>>might expect from Mr. Marsalis.
>>
>
>UH, OH, Terry! You know that little Dutch boy who stuck his finger
>in the dike? Well, what you've just unknowingly done is ... jank
>it out. Or, rather, you know the story of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde?
>This seemingly innocent question is the equivalent of whatever it
>was Dr. J. used to imbibe before ... but no need to worry, just move
>aside, over here with me, quickly, lest you get trampled, for, no, you're
>not imagining things, those *are* Rhinosceri on the horizon ...
>
>
>
"Hic sunt leones," huh? (Or "eh?" as we Canadians are alleged to say.)
Well, in truth, it wasn't an _altogether_ innocent question....
But I will happily accept shelter over there on the side-- Nooooooo!!! Too
laaaaaaaa--
Dr. Don Koldon
In article <17786C7...@IBRDVM1.WORLDBANK.ORG>,
TR...@IBRDVM1.WORLDBANK.ORG (Trina Borras) wrote:
> Terry Hicks -- thi...@pipeline.com asks a perfectly legitimate question:
>
> >In article <4n3nog$e...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, Ross Lipman writes:
> >
> >>The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of
> >>hyperbole one
> >>>might expect from Mr. Marsalis.
> >
> >Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
>
> UH, OH, Terry! You know that little Dutch boy who stuck his finger
> in the dike? Well, what you've just unknowingly done is ... jank
> it out. Or, rather, you know the story of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde?
> This seemingly innocent question is the equivalent of whatever it
> was Dr. J. used to imbibe before ... but no need to worry, just move
> aside, over here with me, quickly, lest you get trampled, for, no, you're
> not imagining things, those *are* Rhinosceri on the horizon ...
>
Wonderfully crafted response, Trina! Uh-oh ....... I think I hear the
theme from "Jaws" lumbering in the distance. We'd all best run for cover,
while there's still time.
--
DK
Jack Woker
In <4n7oba$9...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> thi...@pipeline.com writes:
>
>>The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of
>>hyperbole one
>>>might expect from Mr. Marsalis.
>
>Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
>
>
They only dislike him in inverse proportion to how much he likes
himself.
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4n8is3$a...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, Woker writes:
>They only dislike him in inverse proportion to how much he likes
>himself.
say, Miles Davis or Jelly Roll Morton or Charlie Mingus for the same
reason?
Terry Hicks
Amos Omondi
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
>
>Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
Well, it's like this ... Look, if you have to ask ...
thi...@pipeline.com
thi...@pipeline.com
really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely mysterious. I mean,
the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very interesting composer, and the
guy who practically single-handedly saved jazz back in the eighties. What's
to dislike? Is it that he isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses
well? Is it that he -- hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it --
makes no secret of his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good
musicians?
I'll be running away now.
Jack Woker
In fact a lot of people did not like them. Their music was so
brilliant that people were willing to forgive them their trespasses!
Stories of Miles' seeming disdain for his audience are commonplace, and
any Miles fan can tell you of incidences of Miles' rudeness off the
bandstand. I heard stories of Mingus' behavior (and read about it in
the jazz press) long before I ever saw him, and I can remember seeing
him chide his sidemen right on the bandstand! Mingus once punched out
(trombonist) Jimmy Knepper, and Knepper actually brought him to court
over it! Morton's claims to have "invented" jazz are ludicrous, but he
does back up his arrogance with a legacy of fabulous groundbreaking
records!
jack
Jack Woker
In <4n9rkh$5...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> thi...@pipeline.com writes:
>
>>>
>>>Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
>> >>
But I really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely
>mysterious. I mean, the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very
>interesting composer, and the guy who practically single-handedly
>saved jazz back in the eighties. What's to dislike? Is it that he
>isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses well? Is it that he --
>hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it -- he makes no secret of
his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good musicians?
>
"Good and bad - I defined these terms,
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
But I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now"
-Dylan
Jeff Rossman
In article <4n9rkh$5...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> thi...@pipeline.com writes:
>From: thi...@pipeline.com
>Subject: What's so Awful about Wynton Marsalis? (Wasn't Re: I Thought I Heard Buddy Bold
>Date: 14 May 1996 11:43:13 GMT
>In article <4n9go1$m...@bundy.hh.se>, Amos Omondi writes:
>
>>thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
>>
>>
>> Well, it's like this ... Look, if you have to ask ...
>>
>>
>Uh, sorry about the multiple posting. (Limited computer skills.) But I
>really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely mysterious. I mean,
>the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very interesting composer, and the
>guy who practically single-handedly saved jazz back in the eighties. What's
>to dislike? Is it that he isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses
>well? Is it that he -- hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it --
>makes no secret of his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good
>musicians?
>
>I'll be running away now.
IMO this has more to do with fame than anything else. When any artist
reaches a certain level of recognition and becomes known to, let's say, your
typical K-Mart shopper, it becomes just too provincial to continue to admire
someone. There have been similar venomous attacks on other newgroups -
classical guitarists ripping apart John Williams, violinists slandering Itzhak
Perlman, it's really quite unbelievable. It's great to get recognition, but
let's not get too famous. After all, if my plumber listens to the same
musicians I do, then just how good can this performer really be? He's a
sell-out, a top-40 charlatan. I think all of the above musicians are
fantastic and most people "I'VE" heard diss them are usually trying to
impress others with a kind of reverse snobbery.
SwingDoug
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
>
> In article <4n9go1$m...@bundy.hh.se>, Amos Omondi writes:
>
> >thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
> >
> >
> > Well, it's like this ... Look, if you have to ask ...
> >
> >
> Uh, sorry about the multiple posting. (Limited computer skills.) But I
> really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely mysterious. I mean,
> the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very interesting composer, and the
> guy who practically single-handedly saved jazz back in the eighties. What's
> to dislike? Is it that he isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses
> well? Is it that he -- hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it --
> makes no secret of his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good
> musicians?
>
> I'll be running away now.
Terry-
When I first got here, I tried to argue about Wynton's validity as one
of Jazz's finest musicians and composers. But all I got was grief.
Some of the more intelligent people around here expressed their dislike
of Wynton in a non-inflammatory manner, but others were not so kind.
I think it just comes down to this:
Some people like Wynton, other's don't. Most agree he has technical
prowess, but few think he has any emotive skills. Trying to win people
over, so to speak, about this guy just ain't gonna happen. Those who
dislike Wynton have been here too long for someone to just barge in on
them and try and start trouble. Sad thing is, the mere mention of Wynton
does little else at RMB but just that...start trouble.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwingDoug
c-sch...@nwu.edu (HOME)
dwa...@allstate.com (WORK)
http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~cds653
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You don't know what love is,
until you've learned the
meaning of the Blues..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ADAM BENJAMIN SCHNEIT
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
: Uh, sorry about the multiple posting. (Limited computer skills.) But I
: really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely mysterious. I mean,
: the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very interesting composer, and the
: guy who practically single-handedly saved jazz back in the eighties. What's
: to dislike? Is it that he isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses
: well? Is it that he -- hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it --
: makes no secret of his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good
: musicians?
:
Maybe it's the same as dislike for ANY musician. It's entirely subjective,
at least for me. My dislike of Wynton's music is the same as my dislike
of hmmm, let's say, the New Kids on the Block, to bring back an eighties
favorite. It just doesn't do anything for me. No, it has nothing to do
with drugs, clothes, or his public derision of some very good musicians.
Just the music. Is there anything wrong with that?
-adam
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4n9tpn$i...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, Woker writes:
>In fact a lot of people did not like them. Their music was so
>brilliant that people were willing to forgive them their trespasses!
>Stories of Miles' seeming disdain for his audience are commonplace, and
>any Miles fan can tell you of incidences of Miles' rudeness off the
>bandstand. I heard stories of Mingus' behavior (and read about it in
>the jazz press) long before I ever saw him, and I can remember seeing
>him chide his sidemen right on the bandstand! Mingus once punched out
>(trombonist) Jimmy Knepper, and Knepper actually brought him to court
>over it! Morton's claims to have "invented" jazz are ludicrous, but he
>does back up his arrogance with a legacy of fabulous groundbreaking
>records!
> jack
Gary Valentin
>>>>> "thicks" == thicks <thi...@pipeline.com> writes:
thicks> Uh, sorry about the multiple posting. (Limited computer skills.) But I
thicks> really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely mysterious. I mean,
thicks> the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very interesting composer, and the
thicks> guy who practically single-handedly saved jazz back in the eighties. What's
thicks> to dislike? Is it that he isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses
thicks> well? Is it that he -- hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it --
thicks> makes no secret of his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good
thicks> musicians?
how can you have any respect for a musician who's not a heroin
addict?
and a Jazz musician too.
you must be thicks.
--
____________________________________________________________________
garyValentin IBM DB2 Optimizer
rud...@vnet.ibm.com
(416)-448-3467 Everybody makes me steaks,
(TL)-778-3467 even me.
Mark S Fraser
> thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
>
> : Uh, sorry about the multiple posting. (Limited computer skills.) But I
> : really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely mysterious. I mean,
> : the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very interesting composer, and the
> : guy who practically single-handedly saved jazz back in the eighties. What's
> : to dislike? Is it that he isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses
> : well? Is it that he -- hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it --
> : makes no secret of his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good
> : musicians?
> :
Perhaps it's the ridiculous notion that Wynton "single-handedly saved
jazz". Personally I'm beginning to appreciate Wynton's music again but
this worship that's heaped on Wynton is misguided. There are musician's
out there far more deserving. I just find it hard to believe that Wynton
is the North American voice of jazz in the main stream media when there
are musicians like Milt Hinton out there. In comparison Wynton's just a
kid with a big mouth. BTW anyone no if Eubie Blake is still with us? I saw
him in a video about ten years ago and he was about ninety but I never
heard he passed away. Just curious.
peace,
mark
--
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
Jebediah Springfield
Alex Bunardzic
Because of the bad vibes surrounding Wynton (especially his attacks on
Miles Davis), I've never bothered to listen to him. However, I saw him
several times on the TV, and must admit that he really moved me. I
can't recall if I've ever heard the same subtleness and agility in the
trumpet playing.
This said, I am also very cautious to declare something as being very
good if on the first hearing it appears to do something for me.
Usually, upon closer scrutiny, such pieces turn out to be devoid of
substance, cliches ridden, and trivial. Maybe Wynton's music is the
exception? I know that Keith Jarrett's music is the exception, because
it enchants you on the first listening and never lets go. But this is
extremelly rear.
Alex
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4na4t4$6...@tom.amherst.edu>, ADAM BENJAMIN SCHNEIT writes:
>slike of Wynton's music is the same as my dislike
>of hmmm, let's say, the New Kids on the Block, to bring back an eighties
>favorite. It just doesn't do anything for me. No, it has nothing to do
>with drugs, clothes, or his public derision of some very good musicians.
>Just the music. Is there anything wrong with that?
my problem, not yours.) But you are the first person I've heard in the time
I've been slouching in these virtual halls who's said he doesn't like
Marsalis's _music_. Everybody else just seems to dislike _Marsalis_. And
still I don't understand why -- or why it matters.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <319896...@nwu.edu>, SwingDoug writes:
>Some people like Wynton, other's don't. Most agree he has technical
>prowess, but few think he has any emotive skills. Trying to win people
>over, so to speak, about this guy just ain't gonna happen. Those who
>dislike Wynton have been here too long for someone to just barge in on
>them and try and start trouble. Sad thing is, the mere mention of Wynton
>does little else at RMB but just that...start trouble.
precisely, and a little more honestly, I hope I've _misunderstood_ this
paragraph.) For the record, however, I'm not interested in winning anyone
over, I don't think I'm barging in on anyone, and I'm certainly not trying
to start trouble. I asked a question, some people answered -- and so far,
the exchange has been conducted with complete civility. Is there a problem
here that I'm unaware of?
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <VALENTIN.96...@gaia.torolab.ibm.com>, Gary Valentin
writes:
>you must be thicks.
Yep. I must be.
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <rossm001.4...@mc.duke.edu>, Jeff Rossman writes:
> It's great to get recognition, but
>let's not get too famous. After all, if my plumber listens to the same
>musicians I do, then just how good can this performer really be? He's a
>sell-out, a top-40 charlatan. I think all of the above musicians are
>fantastic and most people "I'VE" heard diss them are usually trying to
>impress others with a kind of reverse snobbery.
time to time. But I don't understand how it applies to Wynton Marsalis. Can
anyone seriously accuse him of being "a sell-out, a top-40 charlatan"?
Terry Hicks
Harvey J. Cormier
In article <4na4t4$6...@tom.amherst.edu>, absc...@unix.amherst.edu (ADAM
BENJAMIN SCHNEIT ) wrote:
> Maybe it's the same as dislike for ANY musician. It's entirely subjective,
> at least for me. My dislike of Wynton's music is the same as my dislike
> of hmmm, let's say, the New Kids on the Block, to bring back an eighties
> favorite. It just doesn't do anything for me. No, it has nothing to do
> with drugs, clothes, or his public derision of some very good musicians.
> Just the music. Is there anything wrong with that?
> -adam
Maybe this. Suppose someone made this observation using Bach, Glenn
Gould, Billie Holiday, Coltrane, or Stravinsky as an example, instead of
the New Kids on the Block. Or shift the example: suppose someone compared
jazz in general to the New Kids in this way. Or imagine overhearing
someone announce that Nietzsche, Shakespeare, Chekhov, or Ralph Ellison
just didn't do anything for him. (Of course I don't mean to compare WM in
cultural importance to any of these other figures, just as I'm sure you
didn't mean to compare him in utter inane triviality to the New Kids.)
_Maybe_ one would think, well, "different strokes for different folks"
(or, in a less dated vocabulary, "what-everr"); but I think it could also
make sense to think in response, well, here's a person with some things to
learn about music or literature. Or maybe, here's a person suffering from
a kind of aesthetic blindness, a person who'd do himself a favor and
improve the quality of his own life if he worked a bit harder to
appreciate some subtleties and complexities.
I'm not trying to argue that everyone should say anything like this about
Wynton. In fact I think there are a number of perfectly reasonable things
to say in criticism of a lot of Wynton's work. But "music is subjective,
for me at least[!?]" is not one of them.
Harvey
--
Harvey Cormier
Philosophy Dept.
University of Texas @ Austin
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
"One never knows, do one?" --Fats Waller
Marc Sabatella
Trina Borras wrote:
> Terry Hicks -- thi...@pipeline.com asks a perfectly legitimate question:
>
> >In article <4n3nog$e...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, Ross Lipman writes:
> >
> >>The idea that Bolden "may have originated jazz" is the sort of
> >>hyperbole one
> >>>might expect from Mr. Marsalis.
> >
> >Why do so many people dislike Wynton Marsalis?
>
> UH, OH, Terry! You know that little Dutch boy who stuck his finger
> in the dike? Well, what you've just unknowingly done is ... jank
> it out.
For what it's worth, there was a posting in about 20 different newsgroups a
few weeks ago, to the effect of "I think Wynton Marsalis is really cool. How
about you?". One of the newsgroups was "rec.music.jazz", which of course
doesn't officially exist. But the obscurity of the name of our group is
probably the only thing that saved us from this thread a few weeks ago. I did,
BTW, post a followup, directing discussions of jazz to this newsgroup, but
suggested that the original poster not bother with his Wynton question right
away, as I didn't think we due for another round until June.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Peter A. Farrell
I'm not sure of every negative comment Wynton has made about Miles Davis,
but the ones I have heard are completely justified. Wynton doesn't like
Miles image as a drug addict. What's wrong with that? I don't like Miles
image as a drug addict. Also, he doesn't like the music Miles put out in
the 70s. Neither do I. A lot of people don't like what Miles did in the
70s. I, like many people, wish Miles had stuck to his Bebop/Cool Jazz
roots. I'm not sure why these opinions bring such negative attention to
Wynton.
No, Wynton did not "save" jazz in the eighties. Jazz would have survived
without him. What he DID do was bring jazz back into popular recognition.
He restored jazz, which had gone underground, to the popular status it
held during the tenure of Dizzy, Trane, Satchmo, etc. I believe this is
why Wynton receives so many attacks. He tries to bring jazz to everyone.
Many jazz fans like their private circle of underground jazz fans. They,
like classical music fans, feel special to be apart of their private jazz
club. Wynton is trying to make it a public club. While I participate in
the private club mentality, I also appreciate the positive aspects of
Wynton's actions. He is bringing more young musicians into jazz. In ten
years, there is going to be an explosion of smokin' young jazz players who
were inspired by Wynton's PBS shows and his albums. Will his critics
appreciate him then??
If you don't like his music, you don't like his music. That doesn't mean
he's a bad guy who should be bashed. I personally like his music (jazz
and classical) a lot. He has an intriguing fusion of classical technique
and old school jazz improv. Some people don't like his style. Some
people say he doesn't play with emotion. Well, people have always thought
that about new styles. Some people didn't like Dizzy and Bird when they
started playing Bop. They thought Bob was a bunch of fast notes and
chords with no emotional/artistic center. Some people didn't like Trane's
trips into the unknown. Some people, including Wynton, didn't like Miles'
work in the 70s. Eventually Wynton's groove will catch on and people who
didn't like him before will change their minds. People didn't like Bob
because it was different and complex. Then they realized what it was
about and dug what they heard.
As a classical/jazz trumpet player, I am forever indebted to the
inspiration Wynton. He has been my inspiration and pulled me into trumpet
playing and jazz.
Think twice before blasting him.
The above has been my extremely humble opinion,
Peter Farrell
pa...@cornell.edu
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4na9d6$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, Mark S Fraser writes:
>Perhaps it's the ridiculous notion that Wynton "single-handedly saved
>jazz". Personally I'm beginning to appreciate Wynton's music again but
>this worship that's heaped on Wynton is misguided. There are musician's
>out there far more deserving. I just find it hard to believe that Wynton
>is the North American voice of jazz in the main stream media when there
>are musicians like Milt Hinton out there. In comparison Wynton's just a
>kid with a big mouth. BTW anyone no if Eubie Blake is still with us? I saw
>him in a video about ten years ago and he was about ninety but I never
>heard he passed away. Just curious.
>peace,
>mark
Well, first of all, the "ridiculous notion" is mine, not Wynton Marsalis's.
And it was, of course, exaggerated for effect. But the fact remains that in
the early eighties, when jazz was in a pretty parlous state, Wynton gave it
what it needed most: an honest-to-God star. He refused to play any kind of
jazz but the real thing, and he made it work, and he brought audiences back
to the music that had long ago deserted it, and -- not incidentally -- he
demonstrated to an entire generation of musicians even younger than he that
it was possibility to make a living making jazz. That was important. Maybe
not "saving jazz," exactly, but damned important nonetheless. Was the
praise heaped on him early in his career exaggerated? Of course it was, and
nobody could have lived up to that amount of hype completely. But he
nonetheless delivered, where it counts -- in the clubs, in the recording
studio, in the concert halls -- and elsewhere. (If, for example, this is
anywhere a more lucid and eloquent demystification of music for the
nonmusician than "Marsalis on Music," I certainly haven't seen it. I have
no idea what any of that has to do with people like Milt Hinton. Liking
Wynton's music doesn't mean you can't love a treasure like Hinton. I do,
and I'd be willing to bet that Wynton does. One thing he absolutely cannot
be accused of is a lack of interest in the music of the past.
Oh, and I know that Eubie Blake passed, quite a few years ago. I'm sorry I
can't remember where or when.
Terry Hicks
Jeff Volkman
On Tue, 14 May 1996, Harvey J. Cormier wrote:
> In article <4na4t4$6...@tom.amherst.edu>, absc...@unix.amherst.edu (ADAM
> BENJAMIN SCHNEIT ) wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's the same as dislike for ANY musician. It's entirely subjective,
> > at least for me. My dislike of Wynton's music is the same as my dislike
> > of hmmm, let's say, the New Kids on the Block, to bring back an eighties
> > favorite. It just doesn't do anything for me. No, it has nothing to do
> > with drugs, clothes, or his public derision of some very good musicians.
> > Just the music. Is there anything wrong with that?
> > -adam
>
> Maybe this. Suppose someone made this observation using Bach, Glenn
> Gould, Billie Holiday, Coltrane, or Stravinsky as an example, instead of
> the New Kids on the Block. Or shift the example: suppose someone compared
> jazz in general to the New Kids in this way. Or imagine overhearing
> someone announce that Nietzsche, Shakespeare, Chekhov, or Ralph Ellison
> just didn't do anything for him. (Of course I don't mean to compare WM in
> cultural importance to any of these other figures, just as I'm sure you
> didn't mean to compare him in utter inane triviality to the New Kids.)
Actually, on some levels the comparison is quite appropriate. Maurice
Starr, the mind behind New Kids, really does know what he's doing,
musically and commercially. And though I think Marsalis is an excellant
musician, I've always felt that much of his popularity and image as "jazz'
saviour" was a media concoction; just like New Kids.
-Jeff
Jack Woker
In <4na9d6$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> cj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Mark S Fraser) writes:
>
BTW anyone no if Eubie Blake is still with us? I saw
>him in a video about ten years ago and he was about ninety but I never
>heard he passed away. Just curious.
>peace,
>mark
>
Eubie Blake died on February 12, 1983, just five days after his one
hundredth birthday!! There'as one for the record books!
> jack
Marc Sabatella
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
> But I
> really _do_ have to ask, because I find it genuinely mysterious.
My personal take, which I wil state once and then try to avoid becoming
involved in debate, is that:
- His early albums were very good, some of my very favorites. Some people
don't like these, and it's pointless to argue personal taste.
- I haven't heard anything of his I've cared for much since the first "Standard
Time" album, or "Blues Alley" (I forget which was actually recorded first).
Some like these a lot. See above.
- There are dozens of other jazz musicians who were active and producing great
music in this 1970's and 1980's - David Murray, Don Pullen, the Art Ensemble
of Chicago, Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor, to name but a few. The notion
that he "singlehadedly saved jazz" devalues the contributions of these fine
musicians. As do statements made by him, and by his semi-official spokeman
(on the backs of his albums, anyhow), Stanley Crouch, that denigrate
"avant-garde" jazz. This is undoubtedly the source of most of the
resentment.
Victor Lin
On Tue, 14 May 1996, Alex Bunardzic wrote:
>
> This said, I am also very cautious to declare something as being very
> good if on the first hearing it appears to do something for me.
> Usually, upon closer scrutiny, such pieces turn out to be devoid of
> substance, cliches ridden, and trivial. Maybe Wynton's music is the
> exception? I know that Keith Jarrett's music is the exception, because
> it enchants you on the first listening and never lets go. But this is
> extremelly rear.
>
I often wonder about why the heck anyone wants to make music in the first
place if all it really is going to get is a lot of intense scrutiny and
then even more to see if it really is "legit" enough. There's a lot of
stuff by Keith Jarrett that absolutely knocks me out. Other times I fall
asleep because it makes me tired. The same can be said for music from
Wynton Marsalis, John Coltrane, or anyone that people want to set up on a
pedestal or tear down from one.
It seems to be awfully high and mighty to lay down a declaration that
something is cliche-ridden and devoid of substance. I mean, come on. Are
musicians making music so they can hand it in to the teacher for a grade?
And so what if it is in someone's opinion? Some like it, others don't.
We have to realize that great musicians at the end of it all are just
human beings like the rest of us. I like Gene Harris, I like Benny Green,
I like Ornette Coleman, I like Andrew Hill, and I think stuff by U2, Peter
Gabriel, Sting, and Beethoven is really good, too. Music is there to take
you out of the real world and into another one.
David J. Strauss
> It's great to get recognition, but
> let's not get too famous. After all, if my plumber listens to the same
> musicians I do, then just how good can this performer really be?
If my plumber listened to Marsalis, I'd like to think that I'd call him on
it.
DS
Joe Germuska
In article <01bb41cf.44add7e0$94ab...@J308852062.resnet.cornell.edu>,
pa...@cornell.edu wrote:
>Also, [Wynton] doesn't like the music Miles put out in
>the 70s. Neither do I. A lot of people don't like what Miles did in the
>70s.
I was rather startled to turn on WBEZ-FM (a Chicago NPR affiliate) one day
and hear music from "Bitches Brew"... turned out it was part of a "Makin'
the Music" program (hosted by Wynton) about fusion! He even interviewed
Pat Metheny. I was pretty surprised. Has he done further shows on
anything further from the mainstream?
Joe
--
Joe Germuska * Learning Technologies Group * Northwestern University
j-ger...@nwu.edu * http://www.nwu.edu/people/j-germuska
"There's only one way out of this mess -- knock the corners off the squares.
We hate nothing and love the rest -- we're all divided into equal shares."
- Sly Stone
Jack Woker
Have promised myself not to get into the tired rut of Wynton-bashing.
He's too big a target, and there are far more interesting things to
talk about! But since you asked, the answer is no.
jack
Jazz Dr
Here we go again!
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nac3k$8...@googol.bctel.net>, Alex Bunardzic writes:
>Because of the bad vibes surrounding Wynton (especially his attacks on
>Miles Davis), I've never bothered to listen to him.
reason to avoid someone's music, I would probably never have listened to
Miles. I don't know, for example, how to reconcile the heartstopping beauty
of "Sketches of Spain" with what I know about Miles's personal life. It
doesn't matter. Is Wynton Marsalis an arrogant swine? I don't know, and I
don't much care. What matters to me is his music -- and I think it's
breathtaking.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <01bb41cf.44add7e0$94ab...@J308852062.resnet.cornell.edu>,
Peter A. Farrell writes:
>I'm not sure of every negative comment Wynton has made about Miles Davis,
>but the ones I have heard are completely justified. Wynton doesn't like
>Miles image as a drug addict. What's wrong with that? I don't like Miles
>image as a drug addict. Also, he doesn't like the music Miles put out in
>the 70s. Neither do I. A lot of people don't like what Miles did in the
>70s. I, like many people, wish Miles had stuck to his Bebop/Cool Jazz
>roots. I'm not sure why these opinions bring such negative attention to
>Wynton.
I think you've touched on one of the central reasons people dislike Wynton
Marsalis: the comments he's made about Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Wayne
Shorter, Ron Carter and Tony Williams. Certainly those last four guys
aren't happy about him; I haven't seen an interview with any of them in
years in which he didn't feel compelled to knock Marsalis. It goes without
saying that that's their right -- and it should go without saying that
Marsalis has the right to say about them what he does: that despite being
supremely gifted musicians, they turned their backs on the music they
really loved in order to make a quick buck. That's not the same as saying
that Miles or anyone else should have continued playing bop, or cool jazz,
or modal jazz, or any other kind of jazz; it's just questioning the path he
and the others took, and the reasons they went that way. In my opinion,
that -- not anything Marsalis may have said about anybody's personal life
-- is the reason so many people who came of age in the days of Weather
Report and Return to Forever (I'm one of them, by the way) dislike him.
He's said repeatedly, and with great authority, what a great many of us
have believed for a long time: that "jazz/rock fusion" was a waste of a
perfectly good decade.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nai0c$a...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Marc Sabatella writes:
>For what it's worth, there was a posting in about 20 different newsgroups
a
>few weeks ago, to the effect of "I think Wynton Marsalis is really cool.
How
>about you?". One of the newsgroups was "rec.music.jazz", which of course
>
>doesn't officially exist. But the obscurity of the name of our group is
>probably the only thing that saved us from this thread a few weeks ago. I
did,
>BTW, post a followup, directing discussions of jazz to this newsgroup, but
>suggested that the original poster not bother with his Wynton question
right
>away, as I didn't think we due for another round until June.
>
>--
>Marc Sabatella
>--
>ma...@fc.hp.com
>http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
>--
>All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
>and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
>
Actually, it was your message in reply to that posting -- from a woman in
Japan named Noriko, as I recall -- that led me here to rec.music.bluenote.
So, really, you have only yourself to blame for this thread....
SwingDoug
Yeah, Terry...you misunderstood the post, but by no fault of your own. I
wasn't clear enough it seems. As you can teel by now, anytime Wynton is
mentioned, it causes a controversy and endless arguing over whether or
not he sucks. I didn't in any way mean to imply that you were barging in
or trying to start trouble. I was just reflecting on myself when I first
came to RMB asking the very same questions. By expressing the fact that
I had the utmost respect for Wynton and his music, I got a lot of
intriguing input from some intelligent people with opposing views.
Unfortunately, I also got private e-mail bombs from a few choice
individuals who, because of my love for Wynton's music, insisted I must
be "republican", "facist", "homosexual", "a talentless shit with no
ears", "asshole", "dumb newbie", "dumbass with no musical taste"...the
list goes on. I just wanted to prepare you for what could possibly
happen. Sorry if I came across the wrong way.
Doug
SwingDoug
> Trina Borras wrote:
> >
> > UH, OH, Terry! You know that little Dutch boy who stuck his finger
> > in the dike? Well, what you've just unknowingly done is ... jank
> > it out.
Wasn't that in last month's Penthouse Forum?
Bonnie J. Nicholas
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
>In article <4na4t4$6...@tom.amherst.edu>, ADAM BENJAMIN SCHNEIT writes:
>
>>slike of Wynton's music is the same as my dislike
>>of hmmm, let's say, the New Kids on the Block, to bring back an eighties
>>favorite. It just doesn't do anything for me. No, it has nothing to do
>>with drugs, clothes, or his public derision of some very good musicians.
>>Just the music. Is there anything wrong with that?
>
>Nope. Nothing wrong with that at all. (And if I thought there was, it'd be
>my problem, not yours.) But you are the first person I've heard in the time
>I've been slouching in these virtual halls who's said he doesn't like
>Marsalis's _music_. Everybody else just seems to dislike _Marsalis_. And
>still I don't understand why -- or why it matters.
>
>Terry Hicks
>
I saw him with Art Blakey in 1980. I thought he was exciting then and
on his first couple of recordings with Blakey, Herbie Hancock, and his
first album as a leader, then he just got boring. There doesn't seem
to be any spontaneity or emotion in his music. It seems he never
seemed to develope a style of his own. I'll buy an album of his every
couple of years just to see if he'll play something new, but he
doesn't. I often wonder if Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, and Lee
Morgan were still alive and if Miles Davis' quintet albums had been
promoted like Marsalis' music and personality, would anybody be paying
attention to him.
John Nicholas
DMar...@gnn.com
In article <4namsi$q...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> thicks wrote:
>Date: 14 May 1996 19:28:18 GMT
>From: thi...@pipeline.com
>Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
>Subject: Re: What's so Awful about Wynton Marsalis? Another View
>
As a newcomer to this group (a couple of months) and having read
all thirty or so postings arguing the merits and place of Wynton
Marsalis or why people didn't like him or did, I have yet to see
anyone talk about his public pronouncements made when he was first
thrust onto the public stage. I heard him say often that Jazz was
African American music and had gone so far as to say that white
people couldn't play jazz. (If challenged, I cannot immediately run
back and replay the interviews, but I was saddened at the time to
hear it) he also got into hot water by saying on a talk show that
Jewish record producers were responsible for the sorry state of
jazz...yes, indeed he used the "J" word.
He was younger then, and in recent years seems to have toned down
the rhetoric, being far more inclusive in his 60 minutes interview
and his book on touring with his band, where he prints an exchange
where he challenges the kids who listen to rap music. But he
turned off a lot of people early on. No, this isn't about his
music, but his stature in the Jazz community.
DENIS
Dmark
R. Edward Stuart
Attention all Wyntonites:
I was listening to NPR several weeks ago and they were reporting on
the funeral of Secretary (of the Treasury?) Brown's and they mentioned
that the Wynton was there playing _Flee as the Bird to the Mountain_
(a supposedly old New Orleans tune). Has anyone heard of this song
before?
SwingDoug <c-sch...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>Doug
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>SwingDoug
>c-sch...@nwu.edu (HOME)
>dwa...@allstate.com (WORK)
>http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~cds653
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"You don't know what love is,
> until you've learned the
> meaning of the Blues..."
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanx,
Ed Stuart
stu...@telerama.lm.com
Mark S Fraser
(thi...@pipeline.com) writes:
>
> I think you've touched on one of the central reasons people dislike Wynton
> Marsalis: the comments he's made about Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Wayne
> Shorter, Ron Carter and Tony Williams. Certainly those last four guys
> aren't happy about him; I haven't seen an interview with any of them in
> years in which he didn't feel compelled to knock Marsalis. It goes without
> saying that that's their right -- and it should go without saying that
> Marsalis has the right to say about them what he does: that despite being
> supremely gifted musicians, they turned their backs on the music they
> really loved in order to make a quick buck.
Well you hit the nail on the head there. I mean, c'mon - Miles, Shorter,
Williams, Hancock, Carter - what do those assholes know about music? A
bunch of confused amateurs to be sure chasing the almighty dollar.
That's not the same as saying
> that Miles or anyone else should have continued playing bop, or cool jazz,
> or modal jazz, or any other kind of jazz; it's just questioning the path he
> and the others took, and the reasons they went that way.
In my opinion that is exactly what he's saying whether that's what he
thinks he's saying or not.
peace,
mark
--
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
Jebediah Springfield
John Burton
Marsalis did not "save" anything. Jazz is much bigger and
greater than this trite egomaniac (and mediocre musician)
--
John Burton
Telephone: (818) 449-8300
Fax: (818) 449-4417
SwingDoug
DMar...@gnn.com wrote:
> As a newcomer to this group (a couple of months) and having read
> all thirty or so postings arguing the merits and place of Wynton
> Marsalis or why people didn't like him or did, I have yet to see
> anyone talk about his public pronouncements made when he was first
> thrust onto the public stage. I heard him say often that Jazz was
> African American music and had gone so far as to say that white
> people couldn't play jazz. (If challenged, I cannot immediately run
> back and replay the interviews, but I was saddened at the time to
> hear it)
Sorry, but you're gonna get challenged here.
You're lying. I have done an extensive amount of research to find all I
could about what Wynton has said in the press. Never, shall I repeat,
NEVER, has he said white musicians couldn't play Jazz. As much as he
loves the music and its tradition, why would he hire Caucasians to play
in his band if they weren't capable of doing so?
Peter Martin, Stephen Riley, Ben Wolfe, Joe Temperley, Ryan Kisor,
Chris Potter, all have three things in common. They are excellent Jazz
musicians, and they are all white as snow. That's only two, right?
Well, the third thing these people have in common is that Wynton has
voluntarily hired each of them to perform and/or record with him.
Kinda blows your little bullshit remark right out the water, doesn't it?
It is precisely this type of ignorant rhetoric that gives Wynton such a
bad reputation among groups like RMB. I am apalled that someone would
blatantly lie about this in order to get his poorly thought out point
across. I dare you...I double-dog dare you...look out...I TRIPLE
dod-dare you to find where Wynton made that statement about whites'
inability to play Jazz. You will not find it and you will be left the
liar that you are.
Joel Schoenblum
Okay Everyone,
Here's my take on Wynton (I'm a trumpeter). Seems to me,
that if you check out the trumpet conference you see threads
on whether or not Maynard Ferguson is a good jazz trumpeter
(my opinion, after seeing him twice, is that he plays with no
taste at all). Most trumpeters have no doubt that Wynton is
a huge jazzer.
But it occurs to me that the reason for the Wynton controversy
lies in the fact that he was introduced to the jazz world by the
recording industry as the jazz savior (as someone else said).
Whether you like it or not, Wynton is unique in that his ability
on the instrument is at an extemely high level in both the legit
realm and jazz. This puts him in a unique position in his jazz
work, and he does deliver. I think expectations are just unreasonably
high given the history.
Lastly, regarding his statements about whites and jazz, fellow
musicians and Jews in the recording industry, I think this has
and will continue to taint his image. And it should.
- Joel
H. Loess
>the guy's a phenomenal trumpet player, a very interesting composer, and the
>guy who practically single-handedly saved jazz back in the eighties. What's
>to dislike? Is it that he isn't a heroin addict? Is it that he dresses
>well? Is it that he -- hmmm, maybe this has something to do with it --
>makes no secret of his contempt for bad music, even when it's made by good
>musicians?
Well, it's a number of things . . .
To begin with, he didn't make a very good first impression. To come
out as a teenager, playing a style that was developed and taken to its
logical conclusion 15 - 20 years earlier, while constantly proclaiming
that this was the highest musical form and putting down anyone playing
something else, including Miles Davis, who created and took this style
to its logical conclusion 15 - 20 years earlier . . .
Then there is this whole attitude of "no one comes unto jazz except by
me." To his credit, Wynton has expanded his horizons (mainly
backward, not forward, but there is certainly a place for that), and
does his bit to introduce jazz to the young. Trouble is, Wynton
*always* sounds like he is lecturing the young. I expect many in this
newsgroup (and elsewhere) who already had a deep appreciation of
Ellington, Armstrong, et al when Wynton was still discovering Miles,
are somewhat offended by his 'annointed keeper of the true Gospel'
tone.
Which brings us to the rigidity of Wynton's cannon and dogma. A few
years back I saw a young Marcus Roberts on TV, explaining which
players, and styles, one *had* to know and emulate to play jazz
properly, and expressing his thanks to Wynton for bringing him this
essential knowledge. Not to put down anyone's religion, but it was
like listening to a Tristanoite.
All of this is of course exacerbated by the fact that CBS, PBS, the
New York Times, Lincoln Center, and others have accepted Wynton as the
authority on all things jazz, and allowed him to preach his
exclusionary gospel to an unsuspectng public, at the expense of
musicians who have devoted their lives to the musical expression of
ideals as sacred and meaningful to them as Wynton's are to him. As has
been noted here before, people would be a lot more tolerant of Mr.
Marsalis were he willing to let a hundred flowers bloom, rather than
using his unique position to trample some of the rarest.
Finally, as to your observation that Miles and others were also known
to issue ignorant dismissals of their peers, two points. One, none of
those artists had the wide forum and stamp of approval from the mass
media that Wynton enjoys; that is, their remarks were mainly heard by
those who already knew better, and were generally less destructive in
the event, whatever their intent. Secondly, when Miles played, all
this became irrelevant. Perhaps Wynton's music is undervalued in some
quarters over these other issues, but to those who think his critics
are ignoring his music when forming their opinions (as you apparently
do), rest assured that the criticism itself is evidence that his music
is not (to his critics) on that transcendant level.
Having said which, I will now go back and see what other responses
your question has evoked. (Maybe this should be an Olympic sport;
I think there's been enough of it here since I arrived about three
months back to last for four years. But since you asked . . .)
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
H. Loess
cj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mark S Fraser) wrote:
>BTW anyone know if Eubie Blake is still with us? I saw
>him in a video about ten years ago and he was about ninety but I never
>heard he passed away. Just curious.
Lived to 100. Left us shortly after, a couple of years back.
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
H. Loess
BTW, exactly how did Wynton "practically single-handedly [save] jazz
back in the eighties"? And from what?
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
ADAM BENJAMIN SCHNEIT
SwingDoug (c-sch...@nwu.edu) wrote:
: Sorry, but you're gonna get challenged here.
: You're lying. I have done an extensive amount of research to find all I
: could about what Wynton has said in the press. Never, shall I repeat,
: NEVER, has he said white musicians couldn't play Jazz. As much as he
: loves the music and its tradition, why would he hire Caucasians to play
: in his band if they weren't capable of doing so?
: Peter Martin, Stephen Riley, Ben Wolfe, Joe Temperley, Ryan Kisor,
: Chris Potter, all have three things in common. They are excellent Jazz
: musicians, and they are all white as snow. That's only two, right?
: Well, the third thing these people have in common is that Wynton has
: voluntarily hired each of them to perform and/or record with him.
: Kinda blows your little bullshit remark right out the water, doesn't it?
: It is precisely this type of ignorant rhetoric that gives Wynton such a
: bad reputation among groups like RMB. I am apalled that someone would
: blatantly lie about this in order to get his poorly thought out point
: across. I dare you...I double-dog dare you...look out...I TRIPLE
: dod-dare you to find where Wynton made that statement about whites'
: inability to play Jazz. You will not find it and you will be left the
: liar that you are.
Doug, you may be completely justified in thinking that Wynton has changed
his views on the ability of whites to play jazz. But that does not change
the fact that he has remarked (in that talk show quote that we discussed,
I think while you were still here) about jazz becoming progressively
"whiteified." He has also complained about all the gigs going to "white
musicians like Phil Woods." (None of these are precise quotes, but all
can be found in Gene Lees' book , "Cats of any Color") Granted, none of this
implies directly that Wynton thinks that whites can't play jazz. But it
reflects poorly on his general attitude towards whites in jazz.
-adam
Brad Richman
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
>I think you've touched on one of the central reasons people dislike Wynton
>Marsalis: the comments he's made about Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Wayne
>Shorter, Ron Carter and Tony Williams.
Speaking of Wynton's relations with Miles, Leo Smith told me a story
while teaching at Bard College about the two men. Apparently Miles was
playing a concert in the early 80s and Wynton was backstage. This was
just as Wynton was cracking the scene. Wynton was encouraged,
practically pushed on stage by record exec types, to go play with Miles
-- ah, the young prodigy meets the old master kind of thing. Well
anyway, Wynton starts soloing and Miles just cold stops playing, and
tells him to get off his fucking stage. Boy, that got things off on the
wrong foot!
Now this story was told to me, although by quite a musician (which while
accounting for something, has nothing to do with accuracy), so if I got
it wrong don't slay me. By the way, I'm not a big fan of Wynton's music,
but isn't it funny that everyone rags on him and not someone like Miles.
Miles was a great musician, but an ass hole too! A lot has been glossed
over since his death.
-- Brad
Dr. Don Koldon
In article
<Pine.PTX.3.92a.96051...@carson.u.washington.edu>, Jeff
Volkman <ve...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> And though I think Marsalis is an excellant
> musician, I've always felt that much of his popularity and image as "jazz'
> saviour" was a media concoction; just like New Kids.
I wasn't around rmb for what were, no doubt, exhaustive explorations of
"the Wynton thing." So, excuse my rehashing old points. I've watched
this topic bounce around rmb for a few days, and am finally giving in to
the urge.
Thanks, Jeff, for bringing up an often-overlooked point. Columbia
Records (and specifically, Dr. George Butler) saw a tremendous opportunity
in Wynton. Imagine what went through their minds: "He's young, he's
articulate, he wears a suit, he can also do classical .. oh my God ...
cross-marketing!!!" This was the genesis of the "young lions" movement.
And, the public -- jazz fans, as well as a larger segment of the "music
marketplace" -- responded and put their money down for the records and
gigs.
And, this wasn't totally driven by greed and sarcasm. Somewhere in the
industry-driven "young lions" effort was/is the idea that getting the
public interested in a new generation of jazz musicians would also (even
if only to a small degree) increase interest in jazz in general, with some
spill-over to other artists/sub-categories. Yes, I can hear the rumblings
out there: "Why didn't they promote Art Blakey / Sun Ra / (insert name of
any experienced jazzer deserving wider success who was alive at the
time)?"
I understand the sentiment, wish it could be so, but also have to
acknowledge realities -- of the music business, and perhaps more
significantly, of society. The cold truth of the fact is that our culture
has become more and more celebrity-driven, and is far more likely to
respond to "a shiny new toy" than something burnished by time and
experience. Can anyone really imagine "Entertainment Tonight" doing a
story on Cecil Taylor? Anthony Braxton on "Regis & Kathie Lee"? Leeza
Gibbons interviewing Mulgrew Miller or Kenny Wheeler? (Actually, in my
more twisted moments, I can get a laugh out of imagining how any of these
would go, but ... it's not gonna happen!)
Wynton, et al, may not be a total "media concoction," but they certainly
were in the right place at the right time, allowing them to get a big
boost from the right people ("right people" in terms of having the
resources/positioning to help make it happen). And, as others have
pointed out, this kind of media visibility and financial success breeds a
lot of resentment from those who aren't so "fortunate."
As to Wynton himself? I have mixed feelings. I think he deserves a lot
of the flak he's gotten regarding his earlier tendency to shoot his mouth
off and degrade the validity of any musical opinions that didn't match
his. He seems to be mellowing a bit, but as in any other field, if you
declare yourself to be a spokesman/expert, you've got to expect some
heat. I acknowledge that even in his younger, nastier moments, there was
a sincere desire to promote good music. Also, I've heard many stories
(not just the ones that have shown up in the media) about his providing
encouragement, time, and assistance to young musicians.
His music? Mixed feelings again, and the jury is still out. I had the
same initial reactions as a lot of others: "technically accomplished, but
so what?" Yet, from time to time I hear things (or parts of things) that
make me think I should try to keep an open mind, because either as a
composer or player, Wynton might do something that will knock me out. I
might even resent the fact that it does, but I hope I can get past "the
stuff" and just listen to the music.
--
DK
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nbjsd$c...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, Mark S Fraser writes:
>Well you hit the nail on the head there. I mean, c'mon - Miles, Shorter,
>Williams, Hancock, Carter - what do those assholes know about music? A
>bunch of confused amateurs to be sure chasing the almighty dollar.
confused, or amateurs, or assholes. What I did write is right there on the
board, for anyone to read.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nbjqg$l...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, Bonnie J. Nicholas writes:
>I saw him with Art Blakey in 1980. I thought he was exciting then and
>on his first couple of recordings with Blakey, Herbie Hancock, and his
>first album as a leader, then he just got boring. There doesn't seem
>to be any spontaneity or emotion in his music. It seems he never
>seemed to develope a style of his own. I'll buy an album of his every
>couple of years just to see if he'll play something new, but he
>doesn't. I often wonder if Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, and Lee
>Morgan were still alive and if Miles Davis' quintet albums had been
>promoted like Marsalis' music and personality, would anybody be paying
>attention to him.
>
>John Nicholas
Curiously enough, my reaction to the young Marsalis was just the opposite.
I saw him with Blakey, too, and thought he was nothing special, and
ridiculously overhyped. It wasn't until "J Mood" and "Live at Blues Alley"
that I got what he was doing. Then, when he broke up that quartet -- I was
in shock at that -- it took me years to get into his septet. But now I
think that music is as valuable as anything in the history of jazz. "In
This House, On This Morning," in particular, has -- for me, at least --
that amazing Ellingtonian sweep and swing.
It's hard to know what the vagaries of the jazz business would have done to
someone like Wynton if he'd come along at a time that was healthier for
jazz. Certainly, nobody else -- except maybe Miles -- has ever been given
the kind of support and opportunities Wynton has had. Maybe if Wynton had
hit the scene in the early sixties, when there were a ton of hot young
trumpet players around, he'd have been laughed off the stage. Somehow,
though, I doubt it.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nbls5$f...@news-e2b.gnn.com>, writes:
>
>In article <4namsi$q...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> thicks wrote:
>>Date: 14 May 1996 19:28:18 GMT
>>From: thi...@pipeline.com
>>Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
>>Subject: Re: What's so Awful about Wynton Marsalis? Another View
>>
>all thirty or so postings arguing the merits and place of Wynton
>Marsalis or why people didn't like him or did, I have yet to see
>anyone talk about his public pronouncements made when he was first
>thrust onto the public stage. I heard him say often that Jazz was
>African American music and had gone so far as to say that white
>people couldn't play jazz. (If challenged, I cannot immediately run
>back and replay the interviews, but I was saddened at the time to
>Jewish record producers were responsible for the sorry state of
>jazz...yes, indeed he used the "J" word.
>
>He was younger then, and in recent years seems to have toned down
>the rhetoric, being far more inclusive in his 60 minutes interview
>and his book on touring with his band, where he prints an exchange
>where he challenges the kids who listen to rap music. But he
>turned off a lot of people early on. No, this isn't about his
>music, but his stature in the Jazz community.
>
>DENIS
>Dmark
>
>
seriously argue that whites haven't reaped a share of the benefits of jazz
totally out of proportion to their contribution to it?
Terry Hicks
OLIVER1923
No one is saying Bolden "invented" jazz. He is credited with being the
first band leader who anyone in New Orleans can remember as playing jazz.
That doesn't mean that Bolden played jazz only. In fact, he is remembered
as having played marches, blues, quadrilles and waltzes as well. The
reason he is noted is because even his critics in the city, and there were
many, credited Bolden as being the first guy who could really rag a tune.
Consider this-Bolden's career was baely a decade long. Would people
remember a guy with such a short career decades later if he wasn't
important?
As for the term "ragtime," the reason Bechet, Bunk Johnson and many other
early jazzmen called themselves ragtime players was because the music was
called that in New Orleans. Jazz was a word which came up later but that
does not mean the players were not playing it. Papa Jack Laine, a New
Orleans brass band leader from whose ranks the Original Dixieland Jazz
Band emerged said in an interview that the music we call jazz today was
called ragtime at the turn of the century. New Orleans style jazz grew out
of New Orleans style ragtime. Why is it surprising that early jazz
recordings sound raggy? Ragtime was a parent music of early jazz.
As for musicians recalling myths they had heard about Bolden, Don Marquis
covers this issue in his book, "In Search of Buddy Bolden:First Man in
Jazz." By using the inaccurate info in "Jazzmen," he weeded out sources
who repeated that book's information which contained incorrect references
to Bolden being a barber, newspaper editor etc. True there were people who
said they knew Bolden who did not-but there were many poeple who clearly
knew and associated with him as well.
As for other people playing jazz elsewhere.. make your case. The best case
for jazz coming from New Orleans is that: 1- the first band to make a jazz
record came from New Orleans.2-That record was followed but numerous
pathetic attempts by Northern bands to duplicate the jazz sound.3-Look how
many early influential players came from New Orleans. Was it a fluke that
Jelly Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong, Kid Ory, Johnny Dodds, King Oliver,
Freddie Kepperd, Sidney Bechet, Clarence Williams, Jimmie Noone, Barney
Bigard, John St. Cyr all came from New Orleans? I should also point out
that they all lived with a three square mile area of each other. Larry
Shields of the ODJB lived two or three houses away from where Bolden
lived. Johnnny Dodds? Around the corner.
My point is, jazz was a cultural movement in New Orleans. Maybe it would
have happened without Bolden-but Bolden was probably the spark from which
everything which everything evolved.
John McCusker
thi...@pipeline.com
of truth to what you've written. I was especially struck my what you said
about Marcus Roberts, someone whose music I once loved, but who know really
does seem to me to be crippled by a rigid and dogmatic approach.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <31990d57...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, freemuse writes:
> I agree fully, but would really like to know why he completely
>ignores most (so called) avant garde music that's been created/played
>since the mid 60's? A "classically trained" musician might have a
>better grasp of Bach/Mozart et.al. but most certainly wouldn't
>completely ignore Stravinsky Mahler, Ravel, Schoenberg and other 20th
>century composers. Marsalis really seems to have a block against this
>form of music which to me has been where all of the creative growth in
>jazz (or "the music") has been over the last 30 or so years has been.
I always hear Marsalis being accused of disliking or ignoring avant-garde
jazz, but I've seen interviews in which he's included Don Cherry and Lester
Bowie among his great influences. And, personally, I hear a lot of their
playing -- especially Bowie's -- in his. I really don't think it's
avant-garde jazz or free jazz he despises, but rather fusion.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nbler$o...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>, H. Loess writes:
>econdly, when Miles played, all
>this became irrelevant. Perhaps Wynton's music is undervalued in some
>quarters over these other issues, but to those who think his critics
>are ignoring his music when forming their opinions (as you apparently
>do), rest assured that the criticism itself is evidence that his music
>is not (to his critics) on that transcendant level.
to respond to it. I said that his music seemed irrelevant to the judgments
about him only because none of the negative comments I'd read about him in
rec.music.bluenote ever mentioned his music. That was what puzzled me, and
that was what made me start this -- seemingly endless --thread. I have to
say that so far, very little of what's been written about him has involved
his music.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nbpi9$mnv$2...@mhafn.production.compuserve.com>, John Burton
writes:
was my statement -- made provocatively and at least partly tongue-in-cheek.
Blame me, not him. While I obviously disagree with your assessment of his
music, I do agree with you about one thing: Jazz is certainly bigger and
greater than Wynton Marsalis. And, you know, I'd be willing to bet that
Wynton Marsalis knows it, too.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
SwingDoug wrote:
>>Yeah, Terry...you misunderstood the post, but by no fault of your own. I
>>wasn't clear enough it seems. As you can teel by now, anytime Wynton is
>>mentioned, it causes a controversy and endless arguing over whether or
>>not he sucks. I didn't in any way mean to imply that you were barging in
>>or trying to start trouble. I was just reflecting on myself when I first
>>came to RMB asking the very same questions. By expressing the fact that
>>I had the utmost respect for Wynton and his music, I got a lot of
>>intriguing input from some intelligent people with opposing views.
>>Unfortunately, I also got private e-mail bombs from a few choice
>>individuals who, because of my love for Wynton's music, insisted I must
>>be "republican", "facist", "homosexual", "a talentless shit with no
>>ears", "asshole", "dumb newbie", "dumbass with no musical taste"...the
>>list goes on. I just wanted to prepare you for what could possibly
>>happen. Sorry if I came across the wrong way.
No problem. As I told you by e-mail, my impression of your message was
totally out of character with what I've seen you write before, so I didn't
take offense. Anyway, the debate has been pretty civil, I think. A few
e-mails accusing me of wasting a hitherto-unknown (at least to me)
commodity called "bandwidth," but that's all. And I've learned a lot from a
lot of people -- including those who disagree with me.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <319984...@fuwutai.att.com>, Joel Schoenblum writes:
>Lastly, regarding his statements about whites and jazz, fellow
>musicians and Jews in the recording industry, I think this has
>and will continue to taint his image. And it should.
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <j-germuska-14...@slugworth.acns.nwu.edu>, Joe
Germuska writes:
>I was rather startled to turn on WBEZ-FM (a Chicago NPR affiliate) one day
>and hear music from "Bitches Brew"... turned out it was part of a "Makin'
>the Music" program (hosted by Wynton) about fusion! He even interviewed
>Pat Metheny. I was pretty surprised. Has he done further shows on
>anything further from the mainstream?
Honest to God? Hmmm... You know, I was in a bar last year, and they were
playing something that sounded really familiar, and really not half bad. I
asked the bartender what it was, and -- after giving me one of those
condescending jazz-fan looks that I like to give the unsuspecting, he
informed me haughtily that it was "a famous Miles Davis album called
'Bitches Brew.'"
Hadn't heard it in at least twenty years. Liked it a whole lot better than
I expected to. Maybe we're all getting a little less rigid as we get older.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <4nckat$9...@tom.amherst.edu>, ADAM BENJAMIN SCHNEIT writes:
>Doug, you may be completely justified in thinking that Wynton has changed
>his views on the ability of whites to play jazz. But that does not change
>the fact that he has remarked (in that talk show quote that we discussed,
>I think while you were still here) about jazz becoming progressively
>"whiteified." He has also complained about all the gigs going to "white
>musicians like Phil Woods." (None of these are precise quotes, but all
>can be found in Gene Lees' book , "Cats of any Color") Granted, none of
this
>implies directly that Wynton thinks that whites can't play jazz. But it
>reflects poorly on his general attitude towards whites in jazz.
>-adam
I'm sorry, but I see nothing objectionable, and nothing untrue, in what
you've quoted Marsalis as saying.
Terry Hicks
Brian Zavitz
In article <31996E...@nwu.edu>, c-sch...@nwu.edu says...
>I dare you...I double-dog dare you...look out...I TRIPLE
Oooh! TRIPLE dog dare!
>to find where Wynton made that statement about whites'
>inability to play Jazz. You will not find it
No, no, no. He said they couldn't DANCE. ;^)
--
Bri
****************************************
"You need a thneed!"
The Once-ler in "The Lorax" by Dr. Seuss
****************************************
thi...@pipeline.com
Terry Hicks
Brian Zavitz
In article <j-germuska-14...@slugworth.acns.nwu.edu>,
j-ger...@nwu.edu says...
>
>In article <01bb41cf.44add7e0$94ab...@J308852062.resnet.cornell.edu>,
>pa...@cornell.edu wrote:
>
>>Also, [Wynton] doesn't like the music Miles put out in
>>the 70s. Neither do I. A lot of people don't like what Miles did in the
>>70s.
>I was rather startled to turn on WBEZ-FM (a Chicago NPR affiliate) one day
>and hear music from "Bitches Brew"... turned out it was part of a "Makin'
>the Music" program (hosted by Wynton) about fusion! He even interviewed
>Pat Metheny. I was pretty surprised. Has he done further shows on
>anything further from the mainstream?
>
Check out:
http://www.npr.org/programs/mtm/
for the complete listing of "Making The Music".
And find out if we can get a copy of all 24 programs.....
Dale Smoak
thrust onto the public stage. I heard him say often that Jazz was
African American music and had gone so far as to say that white
people couldn't play jazz. (If challenged, I cannot immediately run
back and replay the interviews, but I was saddened at the time to
hear it) he also got into hot water by saying on a talk show that
Jewish record producers were responsible for the sorry state of
jazz...yes, indeed he used the "J" word.
I know you're saying that you can't produce the quotes, but nonetheless,
what you are reporting is inflammatory. I think that under such
circumstances, you should either produce the quotes, or refrain from
posting "what you remember."
--
Dale Smoak | da...@shore.net
| http://www.shore.net/~dales/
Jeff Carroll
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
> I always hear Marsalis being accused of disliking or ignoring avant-garde
> jazz, but I've seen interviews in which he's included Don Cherry and Lester
> Bowie among his great influences.
I would really like to see you document this. Particularly, a
positive statement from Wynton concerning Lester Bowie.
Jeff Volkman
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Dr. Don Koldon wrote:
> As to Wynton himself? I have mixed feelings. I think he deserves a lot
> of the flak he's gotten regarding his earlier tendency to shoot his mouth
> off and degrade the validity of any musical opinions that didn't match
> his. He seems to be mellowing a bit, but as in any other field, if you
> declare yourself to be a spokesman/expert, you've got to expect some
> heat.
I agree with this completely. Thanks Dr.
-Jeff
Christopher Cole
In article <4namkm$q...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>, thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
> Well, first of all, the "ridiculous notion" is mine, not Wynton Marsalis's.
> And it was, of course, exaggerated for effect. But the fact remains that in
> the early eighties, when jazz was in a pretty parlous state, Wynton gave it
> what it needed most: an honest-to-God star. He refused to play any kind of
> jazz but the real thing, and he made it work, and he brought audiences back
> to the music that had long ago deserted it, and -- not incidentally -- he
> demonstrated to an entire generation of musicians even younger than he that
> it was possibility to make a living making jazz. That was important. Maybe
> not "saving jazz," exactly, but damned important nonetheless. Was the
> praise heaped on him early in his career exaggerated? Of course it was, and
> nobody could have lived up to that amount of hype completely. But he
> nonetheless delivered, where it counts -- in the clubs, in the recording
> studio, in the concert halls -- and elsewhere.
Thanks, Terry, for the wonderful description of what Wynton did do in the
80's. He gave it a star, someone who was flashy and noticeable. The
problem I have with your next sentence (and the ones that follow it) is
the word "real" in describing Wynton's jazz. Wynton plays jazz that is
like Wynton, just like Miles played like Miles, and Trane played like
trane, and Pat Metheny plays like Pat Metheny. Wynton's music happens to
be in a style that emulates music from an earlier era, and that's his
bag. If he wants to do that, that's fine by me. I like some of Wynton's
music, and I dislike some of it. Same with Miles, Trane, and Pat. I
still think all of them are jazz musicians, even when the stuff I dislike
has piano, bass, and drums in a "traditional" trio backing, and the stuff
I like has orchestras or fusion groups or synthesizers. Or vice versa.
Wynton's music is no more real than Pat's or Miles's or Trane's, but it's
different, and that's why Miles kicked Wynton off of his "fucking stage"
-- Wynton didn't and doesn't understand that distinction. The distinction
is that Wynton's "retro-style" music (someone else's term, thus the "") is
just as much jazz as Pat's stuff with the Group, or as _Bitches' Brew_ is
for Miles.
>(If, for example, this is
> anywhere a more lucid and eloquent demystification of music for the
> nonmusician than "Marsalis on Music," I certainly haven't seen it. I have
> no idea what any of that has to do with people like Milt Hinton. Liking
> Wynton's music doesn't mean you can't love a treasure like Hinton. I do,
> and I'd be willing to bet that Wynton does. One thing he absolutely cannot
> be accused of is a lack of interest in the music of the past.
That Wynton is interested in the past is true. That he is eloquent is
also true. But in the case of demystification, one needs to remember the
original "popular music educator," Leonard Bernstein, and his _Concerts
for Young People_ that were some of the first tv programs to be broadcast
in the 50's. Therein lies, at the very least, an equally "lucid and
eloquent demystification of music for the nonmusician."
I am not in disagreement completely, just needing my own clarification and
revision on a couple of points. Anyway, that's MHO, FWIW.
Christopher
--
Christopher Cole
cco...@nwu.edu
Alex Bunardzic
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Harvey J. Cormier) wrote:
>Maybe this. Suppose someone made this observation using Bach, Glenn
>Gould, Billie Holiday, Coltrane, or Stravinsky as an example, instead of
>the New Kids on the Block. Or shift the example: suppose someone compared
>jazz in general to the New Kids in this way. Or imagine overhearing
>someone announce that Nietzsche, Shakespeare, Chekhov, or Ralph Ellison
>just didn't do anything for him. (Of course I don't mean to compare WM in
>cultural importance to any of these other figures, just as I'm sure you
>didn't mean to compare him in utter inane triviality to the New Kids.)
>_Maybe_ one would think, well, "different strokes for different folks"
>(or, in a less dated vocabulary, "what-everr"); but I think it could also
>make sense to think in response, well, here's a person with some things to
>learn about music or literature. Or maybe, here's a person suffering from
>a kind of aesthetic blindness, a person who'd do himself a favor and
>improve the quality of his own life if he worked a bit harder to
>appreciate some subtleties and complexities.
>Harvey
>--
>Harvey Cormier
>Philosophy Dept.
>University of Texas @ Austin
>cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
>"One never knows, do one?" --Fats Waller
See, this is why we must have philosophy ingrained in our society.
There are people who are lobbying real hard to get the philosophy
classes be the part of the regular high school curriculum. I am with
them -- it really makes a difference.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am not a philosopher, so I seek no personal
gain or security. But, the point I am trying to make is this: read the
whole debate (the topic is of secondary importance in this context),
and then read what Harvey has to say. I am sorry if this means
downplaying anyone's contribution, but I must say that a philosopher's
horizon is the broadest, and he really goes all the way to the root.
I believe that we, as a culture, have reached the point of diminishing
returns when it comes to being pragmatic, and will benefit from
rediscovering the non-utilitarian things in life, like philosophy.
Alex
Joe Germuska
>Speaking of Wynton's relations with Miles, Leo Smith told me a story
>while teaching at Bard College about the two men.
Speaking of great trumpet players... let's forget about both Wynton and
Miles and talk about Leo Smith!
Check out his new album on Tzadik, "Tao-Njia" -- very nice, continuing the
"chamber" orientation of Kulture Jazz, but with plenty more musicians and
a tribute for Don Cherry (another trumpeter I'd be much more interested in
talking about!)
:-)
joe
--
Joe Germuska * Learning Technologies Group * Northwestern University
j-ger...@nwu.edu * http://www.nwu.edu/people/j-germuska
"There's only one way out of this mess -- knock the corners off the squares.
We hate nothing and love the rest -- we're all divided into equal shares."
- Sly Stone
Dale Smoak
Lastly, regarding his statements about whites and jazz, fellow
musicians and Jews in the recording industry, I think this has
and will continue to taint his image. And it should.
Please cite a source for those statements other than your memory, or
retract what you've said here. Thanks.
Jeff Volkman
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Alex Bunardzic wrote:
> See, this is why we must have philosophy ingrained in our society.
> There are people who are lobbying real hard to get the philosophy
> classes be the part of the regular high school curriculum. I am with
> them -- it really makes a difference.
>
> Now, don't get me wrong, I am not a philosopher, so I seek no personal
> gain or security. But, the point I am trying to make is this: read the
> whole debate (the topic is of secondary importance in this context),
> and then read what Harvey has to say. I am sorry if this means
> downplaying anyone's contribution, but I must say that a philosopher's
> horizon is the broadest, and he really goes all the way to the root.
>
> I believe that we, as a culture, have reached the point of diminishing
> returns when it comes to being pragmatic, and will benefit from
> rediscovering the non-utilitarian things in life, like philosophy.
Philosophy's great, but in a discussion of music; it's a poor substitute
for musical knowledge (and vice versa of course).
-Jeff
thi...@pipeline.com
>Then maybe you can explain what "whiteification" of jazz means.
>
>-Jeff
I'm not about to attempt to "explain" a term used in a third-party
attribution. What I will say -- and have said elsewhere in this thread --
is that white jazz musicians have received an amount of attention, and
respect, and money, far out of proportion to their contribution to the art.
That has been true since the earliest days of jazz, and it's more true now
than ever. I could give you a long, long list of black innovators and their
white imitators and point out the disparity in their degress of material
success, but I think that would be pretty tedious.
Personally, I take Wynton Marsalis's maybe-he-did-maybe-he-didn't statement
to mean that blacks are the ones who mostly created jazz and whites are the
ones who have mostly profited from it -- and that that situation, so far
from getting better over the years, has gotten worse. That's the idea --
which, as I said, Marsalis may or may not share -- that I find both
unarguable and unobjectionable. If you don't understand that, I don't think
I can "explain" it to you.
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <cco726-1505...@129.105.148.201>, Christopher Cole
writes:
>Thanks, Terry, for the wonderful description of what Wynton did do in the
>80's. He gave it a star, someone who was flashy and noticeable. The
>problem I have with your next sentence (and the ones that follow it) is
>the word "real" in describing Wynton's jazz. Wynton plays jazz that is
>like Wynton, just like Miles played like Miles, and Trane played like
>trane, and Pat Metheny plays like Pat Metheny. Wynton's music happens to
>be in a style that emulates music from an earlier era, and that's his
>bag. If he wants to do that, that's fine by me. I like some of Wynton's
>music, and I dislike some of it. Same with Miles, Trane, and Pat. I
>still think all of them are jazz musicians, even when the stuff I dislike
>has piano, bass, and drums in a "traditional" trio backing, and the stuff
>I like has orchestras or fusion groups or synthesizers. Or vice versa.
>Wynton's music is no more real than Pat's or Miles's or Trane's, but it's
>different, and that's why Miles kicked Wynton off of his "fucking stage"
>-- Wynton didn't and doesn't understand that distinction. The distinction
>is that Wynton's "retro-style" music (someone else's term, thus the "") is
>just as much jazz as Pat's stuff with the Group, or as _Bitches' Brew_ is
>for Miles.
>
You're right, of course. The term "real jazz" is both pointlessly
inflammatory and hopelessly vague. (I'm both of these things on a fairly
regular basis, though I'm trying to change.) "Real jazz," in this case, is
shorthand -- no, not for "the music I like," but rather for "music that I
think has _commitment_." That's what I find lacking in, say, latter-day
Miles, or Metheny. Not talent, not brains, certainly not chops -- but a
commitment to making the best, most meaningful music they possibly can. I'm
sorry, but I simply don't believe that most jazz players who turned to
fusion did so because they cared passionately about making a new kind of
music. (The rock players who turned to jazz, in my opinion, are another
story.) I believe most of them did it to reach a larger and more lucrative
audience -- and while what they produced is, for the most part, certainly
jazz, I think there is some deeper sense in which an awful lot of the music
they produced is not "real." I can't help wondering if Miles, just before
he died, was thinking along these same lines....
Terry Hicks
thi...@pipeline.com
In article <j-germuska-15...@slugworth.acns.nwu.edu>, Joe
Germuska writes:
>Speaking of great trumpet players... let's forget about both Wynton and
>Miles and talk about Leo Smith!
>
>Check out his new album on Tzadik, "Tao-Njia" -- very nice, continuing the
>"chamber" orientation of Kulture Jazz, but with plenty more musicians and
>a tribute for Don Cherry (another trumpeter I'd be much more interested in
>talking about!)
Okay. Who's Leo Smith?
Matthew C Weiner
thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
: I think you've touched on one of the central reasons people dislike Wynton
: Marsalis: the comments he's made about Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Wayne
: Shorter, Ron Carter and Tony Williams. Certainly those last four guys
: aren't happy about him; I haven't seen an interview with any of them in
: years in which he didn't feel compelled to knock Marsalis. It goes without
: saying that that's their right -- and it should go without saying that
: Marsalis has the right to say about them what he does: that despite being
: supremely gifted musicians, they turned their backs on the music they
: really loved in order to make a quick buck.
I'm not sure he should have the right to say this, because I think
it's probably a false accusation. (He has a legal right, of course,
and should, but I'm not sure he has the moral right.) Miles' and
Hancock's electric music sounds to me like music that they really
loved. Hancock said that he wanted to make jazz half the time and
pop half the time (this is referring to "Rockit," not "Headhunters,"
and certainly not "Mwandishi")-I see no reason to doubt him. He also
liked it when his albums sold. In the double interview with Marsalis
and Hancock in *Musician* magazine, Marsalis kept accusing Hancock
of selling out, based on the fact that Hancock had said something
like "I need more albums like this" when one of his albums went
gold, and Hancock kept saying that commercial success was a nice
bonus, not what he thought about when he made the records. (Somewhere
else, I think, he's said that "Watermelon Man" was the only thing
he ever wrote specifically for commercial reasons-remember, he did
have the pop touch even when he was playing acoustic.)
Now, these guys may be denying that they sold out because it's
unflattering. The proof is in the records; and, to me, the records
are obviously complex, challenging, and invested with love. Marsalis
may not hear the third, but I think he should grant the first two-
or at least grant the possiblity of the first two.
Matt
Matthew C Weiner
Marc Sabatella (ma...@sde.hp.com) wrote:
: Miles did this style [the late 60s quintet stuff-MW] for what, 4 or
5 albums? Herbie did somethings on his own in this vein,
as did Shorter. A few other musicians were part of this "movement"
- Woody Shaw, Bobby Hutcherson, perhaps.
[snip]
: As I see it, this style has much room to grow - it has aspects of ordinary
: modal jazz, Ornette's freebop, and the "Blue Note avant-garde" sound.
I've snipped the questions of the style's viability (I don't think a
style becomes unviable because of the number of recordings, but
because it stops moving-though if a style doesn't stop moving, and
there are a lot of recordings, it'll inevitably launch or absorb
new styles).
I'd like to discuss who else has worked in this style. I just bought
Sam Rivers's "Involution" [have only listened to it once because my
speakers are busted :(], and the sextet album sounded like the missing
link between Miles's 60s quintet and the Blue- Note avant-garde
(Andrew Hill, Bobby Hutcherson's Dialogue, Grachan Moncur's Evolution
probably fits in here too). The (occasional) polyphony was something
the BNag seemed to explore, and the time-keeping seemed to
span the differences between, say, Miles Smiles and Point of Departure.
(On Miles Smiles there's a lot of rhythmic shifting, I think-the
modulation between 3 and 4 in Footprints-but the ambiguities seem
to be subordinated to a continuous beat. On Point of Departure,
the time changes so much that it's impossible to reconcile the
beat to an overall time signature with shifting accents-at least
it's impossible for me-but the beat is never completely abandoned.
This is true of all the Hill I've heard. The "out" tracks on Dialogue,
and perhaps some of Dolphy's out to lunch, seem to me to be
further along the same spectrum. All this analysis is tentative,
because I haven't listened to any of this for a little while and I
usually haven't counted along anyhow.)
All of the above named merged bop and free in some manner.
(A.B. Spellman discusses this in his liner notes to Out to Lunch,
Evolution, and Dialogue.) Do you think it makes sense to speak
of this as one style, as a bunch of closely-related styles, or
what? And who else was doing it?
Matt
Harvey J. Cormier
> Philosophy's great, but in a discussion of music; it's a poor substitute
> for musical knowledge (and vice versa of course).
FWIW, I offered my comment not as a substitute for musical knowledge, or
for anything else. If anything, I was trying to defend the idea of
musical knowledge, or the idea that musical appreciation and criticism,
including appreciation and criticism of Marsalis, is, or should be, at
least partly a matter of knowledge, and not simply the expression of
subjective personal taste.
HC
Jeff Volkman
On 15 May 1996 thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
> which, as I said, Marsalis may or may not share -- that I find both
> unarguable and unobjectionable. If you don't understand that, I don't think
> I can "explain" it to you.
Unobjectionable is of course a matter of opinion. But it's certainly
arguable. And now maybe you can "explain" the use of quotation marks
around the word explain. Thanks professor.
-Jeff
Jeff Volkman
On 15 May 1996 thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
Then maybe you can explain what "whiteification" of jazz means.
-Jeff
Jeff Volkman
On 14 May 1996 thi...@pipeline.com wrote:
> In article <4nai0c$a...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Marc Sabatella writes:
>
> >I did, BTW, post a followup, directing discussions of jazz to this newsgroup,
> Actually, it was your message in reply to that posting -- from a woman in
> Japan named Noriko, as I recall -- that led me here to rec.music.bluenote.
> So, really, you have only yourself to blame for this thread....
Thanks alot Marc.
-J
Jeff Volkman
On 14 May 1996, Jazz Dr wrote:
> Here we go again!
Swing your pardner, docee do. Now; change pardners. Yeeha!
-J
Del Ahlin
> I'm not sure of every negative comment Wynton has made about Miles Davis,
> but the ones I have heard are completely justified. Wynton doesn't like
> Miles image as a drug addict. What's wrong with that? I don't like Miles
> image as a drug addict. Also, he doesn't like the music Miles put out in
> the 70s. Neither do I. A lot of people don't like what Miles did in the
> 70s. I, like many people, wish Miles had stuck to his Bebop/Cool Jazz
> roots. I'm not sure why these opinions bring such negative attention to
> Wynton.
>
> No, Wynton did not "save" jazz in the eighties. Jazz would have survived
> without him. What he DID do was bring jazz back into popular recognition.
> He restored jazz, which had gone underground, to the popular status it
> held during the tenure of Dizzy, Trane, Satchmo, etc. I believe this is
> why Wynton receives so many attacks. He tries to bring jazz to everyone.
> Many jazz fans like their private circle of underground jazz fans. They,
> like classical music fans, feel special to be apart of their private jazz
> club. Wynton is trying to make it a public club. While I participate in
> the private club mentality, I also appreciate the positive aspects of
> Wynton's actions. He is bringing more young musicians into jazz. In ten
> years, there is going to be an explosion of smokin' young jazz players who
> were inspired by Wynton's PBS shows and his albums. Will his critics
> appreciate him then??
>
> If you don't like his music, you don't like his music. That doesn't mean
> he's a bad guy who should be bashed. I personally like his music (jazz
> and classical) a lot. He has an intriguing fusion of classical technique
> and old school jazz improv. Some people don't like his style. Some
> people say he doesn't play with emotion. Well, people have always thought
> that about new styles. Some people didn't like Dizzy and Bird when they
> started playing Bop. They thought Bob was a bunch of fast notes and
> chords with no emotional/artistic center. Some people didn't like Trane's
> trips into the unknown. Some people, including Wynton, didn't like Miles'
> work in the 70s. Eventually Wynton's groove will catch on and people who
> didn't like him before will change their minds. People didn't like Bob
> because it was different and complex. Then they realized what it was
> about and dug what they heard.
>
> As a classical/jazz trumpet player, I am forever indebted to the
> inspiration Wynton. He has been my inspiration and pulled me into trumpet
> playing and jazz.
>
> Think twice before blasting him.
>
> The above has been my extremely humble opinion,
>
> Peter Farrell
> pa...@cornell.edu
I think that the "Wynton bashing" *IS* justified.>>>Wynton came about his
trumpet playing like Einstein came about math...it just happened one day,
not because he was a genius or because he practiced the trumpet a lot, but
because--it just clicked with him. As a young teenager, he realized that
his technical playing talents soared above all else, even bro Branford.
It must have been a tremendous ego trip because now, not only was his
technique spectacular, but this *must have also meant* that he knew
everything there was to know about jazz, and vocally expressed himself
(and still does). Let me just say, without sounding predjudice, that
there are a lot of white jazz players out there who *laugh* when Wynton
speaks. Who is this HYPOCRITE to voice his opinions on matters he doesn't
even understand? When listening to him, all I can think is "Wow, he sure
does play all those notes real clean and fast!" Who cares? What about
the "jazz background" he's always preaching about? Any computer can play
those very same notes just as fast and clean as Wynton--and probably with
more originality. Back to the white musicians...hmm..let's pull Bill
Evans out of storage for a minute. Bill Evans has more soul in his little
white pinky than Wynton will have in his entire life--any arguements? I'm
starting to sound like a racist--I'm not, I love Clifford, Miles, Lee
Morgan, etc...,Coltrane, **ELLINGTON & ARMSTRONG** who Wynton seems to
worship>>>You would think that some of that would rub-off onto him--I
guess he's completely ignorant!
I hate to bash him, but he's asked for it. I love his "Classical" (I hate
this term--applies to music written between 1725 & 1810) he's obtained
this beautiful tone--although he sounds kinda like "Data" from Star Trek,
immitating a human being. Ready.....Aim.....FIRE!!!!
Marc Sabatella
H. Loess wrote (regarding Wynton, who is *not* the subject of this new thread):
> playing a style that was developed and taken to its
> logical conclusion 15 - 20 years earlier, while constantly proclaiming
> that this was the highest musical form and putting down anyone playing
> something else, including Miles Davis, who created and took this style
> to its logical conclusion 15 - 20 years earlier . . .
I would contest this. Miles did this style for what, 4 or 5 albums? Herbie
did somethings on his own in this vein, as did Shorter. A few other musicians
were part of this "movement" - Woody Shaw, Bobby Hutcherson, perhaps. But
considering the literally hundreds of recording of "bebop", "hard bop", "cool",
or any other style you choose to stick a label on, I think the style remained
(and to some extent, still remains) viable. The problem, as I see it, is that
very few musicians after 1960's manage to play that style with the same "damn
the change, full speed ahead" attitude that Miles & Company did, nor do their
various changes in tempo and so forth come off so spontaneously.
As I see it, this style has much room to grow - it has aspects of ordinary
modal jazz, Ornette's freebop, and the "Blue Note avant-garde" sound. Most of
the musicians who try to update the style do so by concentrating on the more
straightahead modal aspects, which I agree has been done. Not that this makes
it invalid to play it anymore, but it certainly isn't newsworthy. But I think
there is considerable room for exploration on the other fronts of this style.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.