Worst songs on the white album
Richard Fangnail
Glass Onion - just don't like it
Yer Blues - like standing upside down with my head in a bucket of
pirhana fish
Wild Honey Pie - more torture; more pirhana
Bungalow Bill - it has THAT WOMAN on it.
Bernie Woodham
"Richard Fangnail" <richard...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1169265230.8...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
You must really like Good Night then, huh?
Dale Houstman
Bungalow Bill isn't my favorite - although I think it isn't because of
Yook's involvement: she does a passable Child's voice.
The rest of your list I disagree with.
My least favorite? Piggies, and Cry Baby Cry.
dmh
White Shadow
<richard...@excite.com> wrote:
Revolution No. 9 should have been replaced by "Hey Jude".
Sean Carroll
>> Bungalow Bill - it has THAT WOMAN on it.
> Bungalow Bill isn't my favorite - although I think it isn't because of
> Yook's involvement: she does a passable Child's voice.
She's not supposed to be a child, she's supposed to be Bill's mom. '"Not
when he looked so fierce", his mommy butted in'.
In another NG, someone asked for a song that would be appropriate after
Saddam Hussein's execution. I picked Bungalow Bill, with Saddam being
equivalent to the tiger. 'If looks could kill it would've been us
instead of him ...'
--
--Sean
http://spclsd223.livejournal.com/
'Saying there appears to be clotting is like saying there appears to be
a traffic jam up ahead. Is it a ten-car pileup? Or just a really slow
bus in the center lane? And if it is a bus, is it a thrombotic bus or an
embolic bus? ... Think I pushed that metaphor too far.'--Dr Gregory House
DC
and "Old Brown Shoe".
Actually, it should have been a triple album!
JR
YO album.
JR
NP: Dylan, _Time Out Of Mind_
"Richard Fangnail" <richard...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1169265230.8...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Dale Houstman
Sean Carroll wrote:
> Dale Houstman wrote:
>
>>> Bungalow Bill - it has THAT WOMAN on it.
>>
>
>> Bungalow Bill isn't my favorite - although I think it isn't because of
>> Yook's involvement: she does a passable Child's voice.
>
>
> She's not supposed to be a child, she's supposed to be Bill's mom. '"Not
> when he looked so fierce", his mommy butted in'.
Oh yeah. Nyquil on pancakes for breakfast! Well - she doesn't make such
a good mother voice...It sdounds like a child to me. Still, I don't find
the song less than satisfying because of that.
>
> In another NG, someone asked for a song that would be appropriate after
> Saddam Hussein's execution. I picked Bungalow Bill, with Saddam being
> equivalent to the tiger. 'If looks could kill it would've been us
> instead of him ...'
>
Heh. And yet - it IS us: we're being strung up over there pretty well
too, and just as brutally.
dmh
Jersey
loved it!
Dimitrios Paskoudniakis
"Richard Fangnail" <richard...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1169265230.8...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Actually, you must like Revolution 9, Don't Pass Me By, and Honey Pie since
they're not on your list. In addition to these, I'm not fond of two George
numbers, Savoy Truffle or Long, Long, Long
Salvador Astucia
I reviewed all 30 songs, and came up with the following five songs that
I really do NOT like:
Piggies
Long, Long, Long
Don't Pass Me By
Why Don't We Do It in the Road?
Revolution 9
Revolution 9, really isn't a song per se, so I'm not sure it qualifies
as a "worst song", but I added it to the list anyway. It's artistic,
but I never listen to it. George is pretty weak on the White Album,
IMHO. The only song he did that was very good was While My Guitar
Gently Weeps, although the lyrics are not very strong.
My favorite two Paul songs from the White Album are Mother Nature's Son
and Blackbird. My favorite two John songs are Dear Prudence and Julia.
Here are my ratings of all 30 songs:
Disc: 1
1. Back in the U.S.S.R. (Okay)
2. Dear Prudence (Great)
3. Glass Onion (Very Good)
4. Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da (Okay)
5. Wild Honey Pie (Humorous)
6. Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill (Humorous)
7. While My Guitar Gently Weeps (Very Good)
8. Happiness Is a Warm Gun (Very Good)
9. Martha My Dear (Very Good)
10. I'm So Tired (Very Good)
11. Blackbird (Excellent)
12. Piggies (Poor)
13. Rocky Raccoon (Okay)
14. Don't Pass Me By (Poor)
15. Why Don't We Do It in the Road? (Poor)
16. I Will (Okay)
17. Julia (Excellent)
Disc: 2
1. Birthday (Okay)
2. Yer Blues (Okay)
3. Mother Nature's Son (Excellent)
4. Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey (Very
Good)
5. Sexy Sadie (Very Good)
6. Helter Skelter (Okay)
7. Long, Long, Long (Poor)
8. Revolution 1 (Very Good)
9. Honey Pie (Weird)
10. Savoy Truffle (Okay)
11. Cry Baby Cry (Okay)
12. Revolution 9 (Not really music; don't care for)
13. Good Night (Okay)
Salvador
uly...@mscomm.com
album. A single album would have been sublime.
White Album songs which should have been axed:
1. Revolution #9
2. Long, Long Long
3. Wild Honey Pie
4. Why Don't We Do it in the Road?
5. Cry, Baby Cry
Honorable mention: Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My
Monkey, Savoy Truffel and Sexy Sadie.
Replace those songs with Hey Jude and Hey Bulldog.
Salvador Astucia
'Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey' is an
unusual song lyrically, but it's a real rocker, and I think John's
vocal is great. I assume he was referring to heroin when he mentioned
"monkey", as in having a monkey on his back. He admitted being into
heroin during the Let It Be sessions, which I believe were in process
only a couple of months after the release of the White Album.
I think Sexy Sadie is a nice tune. Try listening to it again. It's got
a nice melody, John does a great job singing it, it has tight backup
vocals, a nice lead guitar bit. What's not to like?
I agree that Savoy Truffel isn't very good. But given the other crap
George contributed to the White Album (exception, WMGGW), I gave it a
pass in my previous review because it has a nice beat.
Salvador
D. Moreno
> I reviewed all 30 songs, and came up with the following five songs that
> I really do NOT like:
Like, who gives a shit?
Salvador Astucia
> Salvador Astucia wrote:
>
> > I reviewed all 30 songs, and came up with the following five songs that
> > I really do NOT like:
D. Moreno wrote:
> Like, who gives a shit?
Sorry if I offended you. You're the first person I've met who likes
Piggies
Long, Long, Long
Don't Pass Me By
Why Don't We Do It in the Road?
Revolution 9
Whatever floats your boat.
Salvador
Norman Haskins
"Richard Fangnail" <richard...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1169265230.8...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
I would never pick Bungalow Bill or Piggies for this list. In the context of
their times they were the anti-establishment stuff that many of us craved. I
loved those songs and still like them and remember them fondly. I'd include
them in the songs that would have to be included if they'd made it into a
single album instead.
Others have mentioned Savoy Truffle, Long Long Long, and Cry baby Cry. Maybe
if you were picking the bottom 10 these could be included, though they are
excellent songs. Long L L is saved by that imaginative, masterful guitar
work. I love that guitar.
But it seems to me any bottom 5 list would have to include these 3:
Good Night
Wild Honey Pie
Revolution #9
As for the other two in the bottom 5, I'd go with Rocky Racoon (very boring)
and Don't Pass Me By (very simplistic). But the latter one is close. I could
be persuaded to go with Oobla Di Ooobla Da instead. I like the violin work
on DPMB.
As to making it a single album I agree completely with Paul's: "It's the
bloody Beatles White Album. Shut up." It's got a great atmosphere about it
as a double album that would be completely ruined.
Dale Houstman
JR wrote:
> "Wild Honey Pie" wins that prize easily. It could be a bad outtake from any
> YO album.
>
It's a strange trifle, a bit of an experiment, and a passing gag, and
not meant to be much more. It wouldn't have made the cut if the album
had been reduced to one LP, but it isn't all that long, and - frankly -I
like it quite a bit. Not that this means anything, but so did The Pixies
it seems.
dmh
Salvador Astucia
Norman Haskins wrote:
> As to making it a single album I agree completely with Paul's: "It's the
> bloody Beatles White Album. Shut up." It's got a great atmosphere about it
> as a double album that would be completely ruined.
In 1970, John told Rolling Stone magazine that the White Album was the
best Lennon effort with the Beatles (or words to that effect), although
he pointed out that the White Album was not the best Beatle album. Here
are his songs:
Dear Prudence
Glass Onion
Happiness Is a Warm Gun
I'm So Tired
Julia
Yer Blues
Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey
Sexy Sadie
Revolution 1
Cry Baby Cry
Revolution 9
Good Night (written for Julian, but Ringo sang)
---
Salvador
Dale Houstman
Salvador Astucia wrote:
>
> 'Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey' is an
> unusual song lyrically, but it's a real rocker, and I think John's
> vocal is great. I assume he was referring to heroin when he mentioned
> "monkey", as in having a monkey on his back. He admitted being into
> heroin during the Let It Be sessions, which I believe were in process
> only a couple of months after the release of the White Album.
>
> I think Sexy Sadie is a nice tune. Try listening to it again. It's got
> a nice melody, John does a great job singing it, it has tight backup
> vocals, a nice lead guitar bit. What's not to like?
>
Some Jewish people love both those songs too. So you have something in
common with the people you routinely insult with your dim bullshit.
dmh
D. Moreno
> Sorry if I offended you. You're the first person I've met who likes
>
> Piggies
> Long, Long, Long
> Don't Pass Me By
> Why Don't We Do It in the Road?
> Revolution 9
I like it all.
And hopefully, we never will met.
Jimbace
news:1169313273.5...@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>> Salvador Astucia wrote:
>>
>> > I reviewed all 30 songs, and came up with the following five songs
>> > that I really do NOT like:
>
> D. Moreno wrote:
>> Like, who gives a shit?
>
> Sorry if I offended you. You're the first person I've met who likes
>
> Piggies
> Long, Long, Long
> Don't Pass Me By
Then get out more. I like these as do many others.
> Why Don't We Do It in the Road?
> Revolution 9
I could live without these.
>
> Whatever floats your boat.
Like racism and violence? Yeah. I see you've crawled back in an attempt
to be repectable again. Good luck with that.
Dylan
"Richard Fangnail" <richard...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1169265230.8...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Glass Onion and Yer blues are 2 of my favourites.
My least favourites are:
Don't Pass Me By, Long, Long, Long and Revolution 9
Dylan
fogpotion
Richard - I especially agree with Rocky Raccoon and Bungalow Bill. What
were they thinking? Whose choice was this? Paul's? These are songs that
belong on a children's sing along record. Can you imagine playing these
songs for anyone at a party "Ah yes, the Beatles, they were the
greatest rock band" Crap.
Dylan
"fogpotion" <nxs...@lausd.k12.ca.us> wrote in message
news:1169321153.8...@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Richard - I especially agree with Rocky Raccoon and Bungalow Bill. What
> were they thinking? Whose choice was this? Paul's? These are songs that
> belong on a children's sing along record. Can you imagine playing these
> songs for anyone at a party "Ah yes, the Beatles, they were the
> greatest rock band" Crap.
>
The beatles did a lot of childish songs.. usually well written childrens
songs though ;-)
Dylan
Dale Houstman
One is Paul's song, the other John's, so your "idea" that Paul MUST have
chosen such obviously ridiculous songs to go on the album is quite
unlikely. As for the children's singalong comment: BB is an
anti-masculine aggression song (often applied to the Vietnam War), and
the other is a very nice, albeit humorous, song: I simply do not
understand the animosity against it. And since when is there something
wrong with children's songs; they did it again with "Yellow Submarine"
which is marvelous. And one of the most defining characteristics of the
Beatles is their sheer breadth of song genres, from strange rockers to
twee ballads, to psychedelic music hall songs to proto-electronica to
fairy tales to country to epic orchestrated pop to folk-rock and on and
on. I personally don't give a rat's carbuncle what some hypothetical
alcoholics at a party think about the Beatles: they were great not
because they stayed within the constraints of rock, but because they
redefined what the limits and potentials were.
dmh
fatt...@yahoo.com
Richard Fangnail wrote:
> Rocky Raccoon - pure torture
>
> Glass Onion - just don't like it
>
> Yer Blues - like standing upside down with my head in a bucket of
> pirhana fish
>
> Wild Honey Pie - more torture; more pirhana
>
> Bungalow Bill - it has THAT WOMAN on it.
The White Album is a great album. IIRC it was and is the best selling
Beatles album.
I like Yer Blues.
IMHO the only really awful song is Revolution #9.
uly...@mscomm.com
not to like?"
Salvador, I've listened to it hundreds of times, I never liked it and
never will. I only suffered through it because I was often too lazy to
get up and pick the needle up on the record during the vinyl days. You
are perfectly free to love the song (or any other song). People will
always disagree about such things.
It's silly to argue over various songs because taste is individual. I
confess to liking two songs off McCartney II that most people detest:
Temporary Secretary and Nobody Knows.
Speaking of the White Album, I've talked to people at variois
Beatlefests who think the worst song on the album is While My Guitar
Gently Weeps. As George Martin says, "horses for courses."
fatt...@yahoo.com
I like Everybody's Got Something to Hide.
I believe it is a song about sex. (i.e. slap the monkey)
He sings "Your inside is out when your outside is in, etc." He also
sings "C'mon it's such a joy."
I think it's about sex.
JR
"Dale Houstman" <dm...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
news:45B25280...@skypoint.com...
grab bag of goodies to like and dislike as one sees fit..
fatt...@yahoo.com
This is what John said about "Everybody's Got Something to Hide":
' Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me And My Monkey '. That
was just a sort of nice line that I made into a song. It was about me
and Yoko. Everybody seemed to be paranoid except for us two, who were
in the glow of love. Everything is clear and open when you're in love.
Everybody was sort of tense around us, you know, 'What is SHE doing
here at the session? Why is she with him?' All this sort of madness is
going on around us because we just happened to want to be together all
the time.
fatt...@yahoo.com
Several years ago there was so survey done and Obladi Oblada was voted
the worst song of all time.
Salvador Astucia
> > 'Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey' is an
> > unusual song lyrically, but it's a real rocker, and I think John's
> > vocal is great. I assume he was referring to heroin when he mentioned
> > "monkey", as in having a monkey on his back. He admitted being into
> > heroin during the Let It Be sessions, which I believe were in process
> > only a couple of months after the release of the White Album.
> >
> > I think Sexy Sadie is a nice tune. Try listening to it again. It's got
> > a nice melody, John does a great job singing it, it has tight backup
> > vocals, a nice lead guitar bit. What's not to like?
Dale Houstman wrote:
> Some Jewish people love both those songs too. So you have something in
> common with the people you routinely insult with your dim bullshit.
Other than not supporting Israel and raising questions about WWII, when
did I insult a Jewish person?
Salvador
Salvador Astucia
Salvador Astucia wrote:
> > Whatever floats your boat.
Jimbace (aka, Mister Charlie) wrote:
> Like racism and violence? Yeah.
Do you support racism and violence?
Salvador
Salvador Astucia
> The White Album is a great album. IIRC it was and is the best selling
> Beatles album.
>
> I like Yer Blues.
>
> IMHO the only really awful song is Revolution #9.
It's a nice album, but it wasn't one of their best, IMHO. My favorite
is Rubber Soul. Looking back, I recall liking the White Album when it
was released because I was glad they were finished with the
Pepper/classical era stuff. I preferred them sounding like a rock band.
The interesting thing about the White Album is it showed that they were
as good as any other rock band at the time. The Beatles started a
musical/artistic explosion in the early sixties and other bands were
copying them for awhile. Then around 1966, some really good bands came
on the scene who gave them a run for their money (Yardbyrds, Doors,
Jefferson Airplane, Cream, etc.). The Beatles went in a different
direction with Pepper, but then they came back to rock music with the
White Album. At the time, it was a bit of a relief hearing them play
guitars again without all the orchestrated stuff.
I've heard the argument that the White Album should have been released
as a single album instead of a double, but it doesn't have that many
truly bad songs on it. Lots of them are *okay*, but not really bad.
Even Revolution # 9 is *interesting*, and no one ever claimed it was
*music*. John told Rolling Stone (1970) that the White Album was a solo
effort for him, Paul and George, and everyone acted as the others'
sidemen. That's one reason why it seems so different from the previous
albums.
Salvador
Sean Carroll
> 'Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey' is an
> unusual song lyrically, but it's a real rocker, and I think John's
> vocal is great. I assume he was referring to heroin when he mentioned
> "monkey", as in having a monkey on his back.
Actually, it's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
--
--Sean
http://spclsd223.livejournal.com/
'Saying there appears to be clotting is like saying there appears to be
a traffic jam up ahead. Is it a ten-car pileup? Or just a really slow
bus in the center lane? And if it is a bus, is it a thrombotic bus or an
embolic bus? ... Think I pushed that metaphor too far.'--Dr Gregory House
Sean Carroll
> Sorry if I offended you. You're the first person I've met who likes
> Piggies
> Long, Long, Long
> Don't Pass Me By
> Why Don't We Do It in the Road?
> Revolution 9
I've always loved 'Piggies' -- one of the few truly class-conscious
Beatles songs. It may be a little cartoonishly simplistic, but at least
George was trying. And 'in their eyes there's something lacking, what
they need's a damn good whacking' -- where is there a better line
summing up world 'leaders' today?
'Revolution 9' is wonderful -- the only reason it
gets a bad rap is because many people are so tied to their
preconceptions about music that they're not willing to listen to
something that's truly artistic and avant-garde.
'Long, Long, Long' isn't one of my favourite White Album songs *or*
George songs. But it's not horrible. Sometimes in times of particular
lonesomeness or quietude, its haunting tempo and disturbing ending come
back to weave their way through my mind.
'Why Don't We Do It in the Road?' has no substance, of course, but it
deserves to be remembered just for the lyric. It's not like it pretends
to be anything more.
I never particularly cared for 'Don't Pass Me By', but keeping in mind
that it's the first official song Ringo wrote, it's probably a lot
better than *my* first published song would have been.
Salvador Astucia
> > 'Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey' is an
> > unusual song lyrically, but it's a real rocker, and I think John's
> > vocal is great. I assume he was referring to heroin when he mentioned
> > "monkey", as in having a monkey on his back.
Sean Carroll wrote:
> Actually, it's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
> else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
Anything's possible. Who knows? Did he ever say what the song is about?
Anyway, someone said earlier that the tune was one of the worst on the
album. I've always liked it regardless of the lyrics. There's a lot of
neat guitar work going on. There's the intro chordal riff that plays on
and off throughout the song, and there's a neat lower guitar part that
plays constantly. Plus the great guitar break after the word "monkey".
Nice party song.
One thing I particularly liked as a teenager was to use this song to
harass the older generation. When they would put down the Beatles, I
would say something like: "Come on, they've got some great artistic
songs that everyone likes. One of my favorites is 'Everybody's Got
Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey'." That always got a big
laugh.
Salvador
Sean Carroll
> IMHO the only really awful song is Revolution #9.
Are people really this narrow-minded? This is like the 15th message
today I've seen listing 'Revolution 9' as 'awful'. Are people that bound
to their tiny, pre-defined, commercial little music worlds that they
react so virulently to the very idea of something with as much artistic
modernity as musique concrete?
I don't understand how people could hate it so much if that's not the
reason. It's a very well-composed piece of avant-garde sound collage.
There is absolutely no reason I can see to hate it so, unless it's a
mindless bias against any music that's not made with two guitars, a
bass, and a drum kit.
Sean Carroll
> Even Revolution # 9 is *interesting*, and no one ever claimed it was
> *music*.
Do not pass Go. Proceed directly to school, and take five hundred music
classes.
You will not be released until you can define 'music' in a way that
includes more than just pop songs made with string and percussion
instruments.
Sean Carroll
> Sean Carroll wrote:
>>Actually, it's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
>>else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
> Anything's possible. Who knows? Did he ever say what the song is about?
Yes, he did. It's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
> Anyway, someone said earlier that the tune was one of the worst on the
> album. I've always liked it regardless of the lyrics. There's a lot of
> neat guitar work going on.
I love the song. It's one of their best real rockers. It's always on my
playlist when I'm in the mood to listen to Beatles songs that 'blow the
motherfucker out', along with such others as 'Long Tall Sally', 'Helter
Skelter', 'Good Morning Good Morning', 'She Said She Said', 'Day
Tripper', 'Come Together', and such.
Salvador Astucia
poisoned rose wrote:
> Sean Carroll <sean...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > IMHO the only really awful song is Revolution #9.
> >
> > Are people really this narrow-minded? This is like the 15th message
> > today I've seen listing 'Revolution 9' as 'awful'. Are people that bound
> > to their tiny, pre-defined, commercial little music worlds that they
> > react so virulently to the very idea of something with as much artistic
> > modernity as musique concrete?
>
> "rap is crap" is viewed as "wisdom."
Rap is certainly not music. It's talking.
Sean Carroll
> I'd rank "Sexy Sadie" around my top six favorites from the album.
And I'd rank 'Your Mother Should Know' as one of my top six favourites
from the British MMT EP.
Think about it for a second. You'll get it.
Sean Carroll
> Rap is certainly not music. It's talking.
Once again, you have demonstrated your superior knowledge and authority
by unilaterally defining 'music' for us and the whole world. Kudos!
I'm no fan of rap. But a guy banging a stick on a rock with a beat is
music. Just because I don't like lima beans doesn't mean they're not
vegetables.
Salvador Astucia
Salvador Astucia wrote:
> > Rap is certainly not music. It's talking.
Sean Carroll wrote:
> Once again, you have demonstrated your superior knowledge and authority
> by unilaterally defining 'music' for us and the whole world. Kudos!
>
> I'm no fan of rap. But a guy banging a stick on a rock with a beat is
> music. Just because I don't like lima beans doesn't mean they're not
> vegetables.
No, literally, rap is not music by any definition. Look up the word
music in the dictionary and see if rap fits the description. Saying
something is not music is not necessarily a put-down. In this case,
it's factual. I don't particularly like rap, but I will admit it may be
art because art is difficult to define, but music is not. Rap is not
music. Period.
Salvador
Salvador Astucia
Salvador Astucia wrote:
> > Rap is certainly not music. It's talking.
Sean Carroll wrote:
> Once again, you have demonstrated your superior knowledge and authority
> by unilaterally defining 'music' for us and the whole world. Kudos!
>
> I'm no fan of rap. But a guy banging a stick on a rock with a beat is
> music. Just because I don't like lima beans doesn't mean they're not
> vegetables.
Since you've decided to be anal, here's the definition of music. (See
below.) Now please explain how a black dude from the ghetto (or a white
guy pretending to be a black dude from the ghetto) mouthing off vulgar
poetry to a beat, without attempting to sing a song, falls under the
definition of music of any form.
---
Music - 1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in
succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a
composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or
mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony (per
Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
---
Salvador
Sean Carroll
>>I'm no fan of rap. But a guy banging a stick on a rock with a beat is
>>music. Just because I don't like lima beans doesn't mean they're not
>>vegetables.
> No, literally, rap is not music by any definition.
Then what the fuck is it? A Hallmark original movie? A mint-condition
original Spiderman comic? A giant runny nose?
> Look up the word
> music in the dictionary and see if rap fits the description.
Um, okay.
'music: 1 a: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in
succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a
composition having unity and continuity b: vocal, instrumental, or
mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony.'
Spoken lyrics and drumbeats are 'tones or sounds'. They are not random
noise -- they are ordered 'in succession, in combination, and in
temporal relationships' to form a single composition (a song). A
'rhythm' is created by 'vocal ... or mechanical sounds'.
This is absurd. I can't believe I'm having this conversation. Of course
it's music. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that cheese is not a
dairy product. It is made up of sounds, arranged to create a pleasing
(to some) rhythm that is listened to for enjoyment. That is all music is.
> Saying
> something is not music is not necessarily a put-down. In this case,
> it's factual.
If by 'factual' you mean 'absolutely ridiculous', yeah.
> I don't particularly like rap, but I will admit it may be
> art because art is difficult to define, but music is not.
That's right. Music is the art whose material is arranged sounds.
> Rap is not music. Period.
You admit it's art. It consists of arranged sounds, not of Bundt cakes
or decapitated orcas. It is art that consists of arranged sounds. Music
is art that consists of arranged sounds. Why is this so difficult for
you to grasp?
Sean Carroll
> Now please explain how a black dude from the ghetto (or a white
> guy pretending to be a black dude from the ghetto) mouthing off vulgar
> poetry to a beat, without attempting to sing a song, falls under the
> definition of music of any form.
A composition of sounds with rhythm is music, as pointed out in the
definition you quoted. Rap is a composition of sounds with rhythm. This
is not difficult, dude.
BlackMonk
<fatt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1169330808....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Several years ago there was so survey done and Obladi Oblada was voted
> the worst song of all time.
If we're thinking of the same thing, it wasn't a survey, it was an article.
fatt...@yahoo.com
Sean Carroll wrote:
> Salvador Astucia wrote:
>
> > 'Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey' is an
> > unusual song lyrically, but it's a real rocker, and I think John's
> > vocal is great. I assume he was referring to heroin when he mentioned
> > "monkey", as in having a monkey on his back.
>
> Actually, it's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
> else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
>
> --
> --Sean
Yes. That is what John said. But why does he use the word "monkey"?
fatt...@yahoo.com
I am thinking of a survey that was reported in an article.
Dale Houstman
Sean Carroll wrote:
> fatt...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> IMHO the only really awful song is Revolution #9.
>
>
> Are people really this narrow-minded? This is like the 15th message
> today I've seen listing 'Revolution 9' as 'awful'. Are people that bound
> to their tiny, pre-defined, commercial little music worlds that they
> react so virulently to the very idea of something with as much artistic
> modernity as musique concrete?
>
> I don't understand how people could hate it so much if that's not the
> reason. It's a very well-composed piece of avant-garde sound collage.
> There is absolutely no reason I can see to hate it so, unless it's a
> mindless bias against any music that's not made with two guitars, a
> bass, and a drum kit.
>
I've always thought it was a very well-done thing of its type. This
might be because I was used to listening to quite a bit of modern music
(like Varese), and - for a "mere" pop group - this is a nicely
constructed piece.
dmh
Dale Houstman
Sean Carroll wrote:
> Salvador Astucia wrote:
>
>> Rap is certainly not music. It's talking.
>
>
> Once again, you have demonstrated your superior knowledge and authority
> by unilaterally defining 'music' for us and the whole world. Kudos!
>
> I'm no fan of rap. But a guy banging a stick on a rock with a beat is
> music. Just because I don't like lima beans doesn't mean they're not
> vegetables.
>
I thought John Cage came along to demonstrate the full definition of
"music". I suppose some people must have missed the point? I'm not a
huge admirer of most rap either (although there have been some great
examples of it), but it's definitely music.
dmh
Dale Houstman
From what I know, he read an article which either called her a "monkey"
(which would be a rather horrid thing), or at least insinuated something
to that effect.
dmh
ontherocks
The White album should not have been an album since people (if you combine
all point of views) hate most every song on the bleedin' album.
I'd love to hear "George Martin" in a Rutles movie saying:
" we should have reduced the White album to a double A single...."
and Barry(Wom):
"too much information on a double album. Should have relaesed it as a
single.."
Dale Houstman
ontherocks wrote:
> The White album should not have been an album since people (if you
> combine all point of views) hate most every song on the bleedin'
> album.
That is one egregious slice of logic! By that "standard" there are lots
of things that should never have existed, since if you combined all
"points of view" (and why you would want to do this is beyond me),
people hate almost everything.
People have tastes and opinions, and they (thankfully) differ. And -
despite my small carp with this or that song - I think the album is
perfectly great the way it is. It's very variety (which is what leads to
its being so "analyzed") is its greatest single virtue. It's like
weather in Minnesota: if you don't like it now just wait a few minutes
and it will change. But it is a traditional game amongst Beatles
admirers to rearrange and edit the album's tracks (probably arising from
Martin's comment), and there's nothing wrong with that. As a game it's
no worse than charades or Uno.
dmh
Salvador Astucia
> > it's music. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that cheese is not a
> > dairy product. It is made up of sounds, arranged to create a pleasing
> > (to some) rhythm that is listened to for enjoyment. That is all music is.
>
> here?
And that is why music lovers dislike hate rap. People may like rap for
many reasons, but it has nothing to do with liking it because it's
music.
Salvador Astucia
> > Now please explain how a black dude from the ghetto (or a white
> > guy pretending to be a black dude from the ghetto) mouthing off vulgar
> > poetry to a beat, without attempting to sing a song, falls under the
> > definition of music of any form.
Sean Carroll wrote:
> A composition of sounds with rhythm is music, as pointed out in the
> definition you quoted. Rap is a composition of sounds with rhythm. This
> is not difficult, dude.
Go back and read the definition of music again. Nowhere does it say
that sounds and rhythm alone comprise music. It must involve "ordering
tones or sounds in succession", something rap does not do because rap
does not use ordered tones (also known as notes). Rap does not involve
"vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or
harmony". Yes, rap has rhythm, but rhythm alone is not music. Rap does
not have melody or harmony because it is talking. Rappers are lecturing
to their audience with a backbeat. Rappers also recite rhymes in their
lectures, and some may call it poetry. For the sake of argument, let's
say that some rap lyrics are poetic. But reciting poetry with a rhythm
in the background, without vocal melody, without instrumental melody,
without making any attempt to use notes other that a background
repetitive riff, is NOT music by any definition.
Salvador
(FYI)
Dylan
his back. her talons were sticking in him and pulling all his tallent out.
John thought it was so insulting that the image wouldn't leave his head.
Dylan
"Dale Houstman" <dm...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
news:45B35E0D...@skypoint.com...
Dylan
"ontherocks" <on...@rocks.com> wrote in message
news:B-ydna4nQOS...@lyse.net...
favourite song on the white album" My least favourite song is better than
most bands entire output. No one had to say they HATED Revolution 9.. just
it was their least favourite. It's like saying which was your least
favourite orgasm.. they were all pretty damn good
Dylan
paris...@gmail.com
> Anything's possible. Who knows? Did he ever say what the song is about?
I remember it being reported, years ago, that the title was a poke at
an article that had been written about John & Yoko......where Yoko was
described as a "monkey".
:) Don't ask me to cite........I *think* I might've read it in the
'The Love You Make' book.
I seem to recall George - in the Anthology movie - attributing the
verse lines to stuff the Maharishi had said.
> and there's a neat lower guitar part that
> plays constantly.
Curiously, this riff appears almost identically in Paul's 'Coming Up'.
Played by the saxes (or "sax-sounding" synths), if memory serves.
Cheers,
Jason
Salvador Astucia
and My Monkey
> > and there's a neat lower guitar part that plays constantly.
paris...@gmail.com wrote:
> Curiously, this riff appears almost identically in Paul's 'Coming Up'.
> Played by the saxes (or "sax-sounding" synths), if memory serves.
The song (Monkey) is loaded with guitar riffs, almost as many as 19th
Nervous Breakdown, by the Rolling Stones. It's a great rock tune, and
not that easy to play.
Salvador
brilton
> "Salvador Astucia" <cropdu...@cs.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Yes, they are. Don't forget that this is the same newsgroup where
>>> "rap is crap" is viewed as "wisdom."
>>>
>> Rap is certainly not music. It's talking.
>>
>
>
Rosie, may I ask - is it possible to avoid your withering disdain if
one says merely "I personally don't like rap music very much" as opposed
to "rap music is crap"?
dahldude
"Rap is Crap" sits well with other muso mottos like "Disco Sucks" from
the seventies. It's childishly simple, it's succinct, and sometimes,
it's the truth...
;-)
fatt...@yahoo.com
Depicting someone as a monkey is a mean thing to do . . . . however the
point about John's talents (energy, personality, etc. ) being sucked
out of him is well taken, unfortunately. Indeed, this "cartoon" must
have been published in 1968, and sadly, I believe it proved to be an
accurate prediction of John's future as well.
This point of view was pretty common at the time . . . I have read a
number of quotes by Lennon insiders (like Julian, Tony Bramwell and
Linda McCartney) and by people who reviewed John's records (such as
Double Fantasy ) who felt the same way. Unfortunately, John got lost
a long the way.
Dale Houstman
I know what you mean, but such statements as "Disco sucks" are not
sometimes true: they are always false, if satisfying. The statement
"some Disco sucks" is probably true (as true as "some classical music
sucks"), while the statement "I don't like some disco" can be considered
as always true, if one can trust the statements of the speaker, and that
he/she are both self-aware, and honest. Even in the case of a particular
example of - say - Rap, the response "Rap is crap" will not be true,
only provocative.
dmh
Lookingglass
..."you were in a car crash, and you lost your hair."
I'm not quite sure if they are two seperate events, or the hair was lost
*because* of the car crash...!?!
rfor...@msn.com
Richard Fangnail wrote:
> Rocky Raccoon - pure torture
>
> Glass Onion - just don't like it
>
> Yer Blues - like standing upside down with my head in a bucket of
> pirhana fish
>
> Wild Honey Pie - more torture; more pirhana
>
> Bungalow Bill - it has THAT WOMAN on it.
My list would be Rocky Raccoon, Obladi Oblada, Don't Pass Me By,
then I think I would be pretty well stumped. You're way off about Yer
Blues!
richforman
abe slaney
rfor...@msn.com wrote:
> My list would be Rocky Raccoon, Obladi Oblada, Don't Pass Me By,
> then I think I would be pretty well stumped. You're way off about Yer
> Blues!
My picks, too.
Sean Carroll
> Sean Carroll wrote:
>>Actually, it's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
>>else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
> Yes. That is what John said. But why does he use the word "monkey"?
Why did he use the word 'sideboard' after 'ono' in 'Come Together'?
Because it was just a damn song, and he picked a word.
Dale Houstman
Sean Carroll wrote:
> fatt...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Sean Carroll wrote:
>
>
>>> Actually, it's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
>>> else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
>>
>
>> Yes. That is what John said. But why does he use the word "monkey"?
>
>
> Why did he use the word 'sideboard' after 'ono' in 'Come Together'?
>
> Because it was just a damn song, and he picked a word.
>
Maybe he meant "ono cyborg"...
dmh
Sean Carroll
> ontherocks wrote:
> > The White album should not have been an album since people (if you
> > combine all point of views) hate most every song on the bleedin'
> > album.
> That is one egregious slice of logic! By that "standard" there are lots
> of things that should never have existed, since if you combined all
> "points of view" (and why you would want to do this is beyond me),
> people hate almost everything.
Including other people. Combining all points of view, then, *people*
should never have existed. But if people never existed, then people
wouldn't hate people, and so people *should* exist. But then ...
arrrrghhhhh!!!
Sean Carroll
> poisoned rose wrote:
>>Now have you figured out why there's so much "Revolution #9" hatred
>>here?
> And that is why music lovers dislike hate rap.
And my point is just proved further. People (at least, people like you)
think 'their' music is the *only* music, so they instinctively hate
anything they don't understand, whether it be rap or musique concrete.
You don't have to 'like' everything. I don't like rap, myself. But
there's a difference between listening to something and choosing to
dislike it on the one hand, and refusing to even listen to it in the
first place because you have formed the preconceived notion that it's
'not real music' on the other.
Sean Carroll
> Go back and read the definition of music again.
No, YOU go back and fucking read it again. *I* actually understood it
the first time.
> Rap does not involve "vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds
> having rhythm, melody, or harmony".
So the lyrics are not 'vocal sounds'? The drums are not 'instrumental or
mechanical sounds'? And rap has no rhythm?
BZZZZT! I'm sorry. I'm afraid you've chosen the door with the goat.
> Yes, rap has rhythm, but rhythm alone is not music. Rap does not have
> melody or harmony
The definition says 'rhythm, melody, or harmony', not 'rhythm, melody,
and harmony'. Are you familiar with the English word 'or'? It means 'or'.
Sean Carroll
>> More wisdom!
I don't know anything about 'Rosie's 'disdain', but Sal did not say 'rap
music is crap'. He said 'rap is not music'. That's enough to deserve
anyone's 'withering disdain'.
Sean Carroll
> Depicting someone as a monkey is a mean thing to do . . . .
Yes. It's cruel to monkeys. Comparing any other species to humans is a
horrible insult to that species.
Dale Houstman
Sean Carroll wrote:
> Dale Houstman wrote:
>
>> ontherocks wrote:
>> > The White album should not have been an album since people (if you
>> > combine all point of views) hate most every song on the bleedin'
>> > album.
>
>
>> That is one egregious slice of logic! By that "standard" there are lots
>> of things that should never have existed, since if you combined all
>> "points of view" (and why you would want to do this is beyond me),
>> people hate almost everything.
>
>
> Including other people. Combining all points of view, then, *people*
> should never have existed. But if people never existed, then people
> wouldn't hate people, and so people *should* exist. But then ...
> arrrrghhhhh!!!
>
If you went back in timr and killed your grandfather before he sired
you, you would never have existed, and thus could not have gone back in
time to kill your grandfather, so you would be born, and would travel
back in time to kill your grandfathr before he sired you. But...
dmh
fatt...@yahoo.com
Funny, very funny. Actually when Ike and Tina Turner did a cover of
Come Together, Tina sang "Ono psycho." No joke. Do ya think Tina was
trying to tell us something?
Dale Houstman
I wish Yoko were a psycho: she'd be vastly more interesting. The thing
about her- from my perspective - is her utter commonness of imaginatiom:
all her ideas seeme either cribbed or banal or innocent of intrigue. She
floats barely inside the aquarium of the art world for years, and then
finally hooks a big fish that carries her pretentions to a wider
audience, who - for the most part - also reject her "art".
But - of course - this is only my opinion of the matter.
dmh
mcnews
yeah.....i'll bet she couldn't paint a cute little puppy if she tried.
fatt...@yahoo.com
Well said. As far as a wider audience rejecting her "art" as the
saying goes, you can fool some people some of the time, but you can't
fall all people all of the time.
Dale Houstman
That probably means something, but all the denotations and connotations,
points and counterpoints, theses and antitheses...etc. are lost inside
a cloud of unknowing...
dmh
dmh
mcnews
On Jan 23, 5:05 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> mcnews wrote:
> > Dale Houstman wrote:
>
> >>fattuc...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >>>Dale Houstman wrote:
>
> >>>>Sean Carroll wrote:
>
> >>>>>fattuc...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >>>>>>Sean Carroll wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>Actually, it's supposed to be a reference to Yoko. As in, 'Everybody
> >>>>>>>else has something to hide, but not me and her -- we're in love.'
>
> >>>>>>Yes. That is what John said. But why does he use the word "monkey"?
>
> >>>>>Why did he use the word 'sideboard' after 'ono' in 'Come Together'?
>
> >>>>>Because it was just a damn song, and he picked a word.
>
> >>>>Maybe he meant "ono cyborg"...
>
> >>>>dmh
>
> >>>Funny, very funny. Actually when Ike and Tina Turner did a cover of
> >>>Come Together, Tina sang "Ono psycho." No joke. Do ya think Tina was
> >>>trying to tell us something?
>
> >>I wish Yoko were a psycho: she'd be vastly more interesting. The thing
> >>about her- from my perspective - is her utter commonness of imaginatiom:
> >>all her ideas seeme either cribbed or banal or innocent of intrigue. She
> >>floats barely inside the aquarium of the art world for years, and then
> >>finally hooks a big fish that carries her pretentions to a wider
> >>audience, who - for the most part - also reject her "art".
>
> > yeah.....i'll bet she couldn't paint a cute little puppy if she tried.That probably means something, but all the denotations and connotations,
> points and counterpoints, theses and antitheses...etc. are lost inside
> a cloud of unknowing...
>
nah.........just means she couldn't art her way out of a paper bag.
Dale Houstman
Well - possibly not. I have my opinions of her art, and they're not
particulary positive ones. But they aren't based on her ability to
accurately render a puppy dog or anything else. Modern art doesn't
necessarily demand technical polish, or even the ability to draw at all.
But in her conceptual art, she is strongly derivative, and almost always
sentimental and naive. In a conceptual artist, it is the strength and
the freshness of the ideas, and the power of those ideas (reliant upon
that strength and freshness) to engage with the minds of the viewer in
such a way as to create redolence of some sort. Yoko's work is almost
uniformly flat, and oddly transparent, in that one can see other
(superior) artists' work through her efforts. Her political awareness
(much like John's ) although invariably optimistic and liberal, is - in
the main -childish and fallow.
But others like her.
dmh
mcnews
> > nah.........just means she couldn't art her way out of a paper bag.Well - possibly not. I have my opinions of her art, and they're not
> particulary positive ones. But they aren't based on her ability to
> accurately render a puppy dog or anything else. Modern art doesn't
> necessarily demand technical polish, or even the ability to draw at all.
> But in her conceptual art, she is strongly derivative, and almost always
> sentimental and naive. In a conceptual artist, it is the strength and
> the freshness of the ideas, and the power of those ideas (reliant upon
> that strength and freshness) to engage with the minds of the viewer in
> such a way as to create redolence of some sort. Yoko's work is almost
> uniformly flat, and oddly transparent, in that one can see other
> (superior) artists' work through her efforts. Her political awareness
> (much like John's ) although invariably optimistic and liberal, is - in
> the main -childish and fallow.
>
> But others like her.
>
these days you can pop on a beret and some black and call yourself
anything you like. if you have the means to remain consistent and
make yourself visible you might just convince some of the people some
of the time.
conceptual art is more about the show than the talent and you can't
take it home with you. or can you.
Dale Houstman
Well - yes - you can. At least as easily as you can take home a Turner
or a Da Vinci: all you retain of those is an idea. Now I'm mot going to
ba an advocate for every vacant-eyed "imaginator" between New York City
and L.A. but there is nothing intrinsically wrong about conceptual art.
All major art "revolutions" have found resistance, from the first
introductions of "true" perspective, to Expressionism, Imporessionism,
Cubism, and Beside-Th-Pointillism: it's nothing new. And since when is a
"show" not the result of a "talent". The real problem here (vis a vis
any viable critique of Ono's art itself) is that if your opinion of her
contributions to modern art (for myself, next to none) applies equally
to all members of the group "conceptual artisits") it isn't really a
critique of Ono's work, and - thus - by singling her out of a seemingly
despised genre, you are actually rendering her the service of elevation.
Your opinion on any specific member of the set is made inherently
worthless.
The Daddy of Conceptual Art is Marcel Duchamp, whose work is witty, and
highly intellectual, and a challenge to the very idea of art (and the
adoration of art in museums) itself. John Cage carries the process over
into music. It is much more useful to compare Ono's efforts to such
figures than it is simply to say "what she does is shit because anyone
who does THAT is doing shit". That's not really a conversation point.
Comparing Ono's work (not her "self") to such persons' work reveals _ I
think - that much of her art is derivative, and less intelligently
presented than the art she is descended from. In fact, she actually
serves as a sort of "cheap knockoff" version of modern art for those who
don't want to know much about modern art at all: one takes her like a
bitter art class pill, and can then have a (VERY) passing engagement
with "Modern Art" and reject it out of hand with little or no effort.
Yoko makes that process easy. But it's lazy.
Imagine your head is made of cottage cheese...
dmh
Slip Kid
> Imagine your head is made of cottage cheese...
Blintzes on the brain?
...ou, peut-être...
Fromage de tête
> dmh
'Dale At The Dairy With Demands'
Picture yourself...
Michael
mcnews
> > take it home with you. or can you.Well - yes - you can. At least as easily as you can take home a Turner
sometimes it is........
i have nothing against conceptual art.
and i am not going to pretend that i am an expert of any art form.
i believe that anyone in any professional walk of life should have some
kind of education and skill and not simply declare themselves such.
they should be able to exhibit they they understand the tools and rules
of the trade.
i think much of her stuff is silly and pointless and offers no light.
it merely makes us aware of her - nothing more.
BlackMonk
>
>> The Daddy of Conceptual Art is Marcel Duchamp, whose work is witty, and
> highly intellectual, and a challenge to the very idea of art (and the
> adoration of art in museums) itself. John Cage carries the process over
> into music. It is much more useful to compare Ono's efforts to such
> figures than it is simply to say "what she does is shit because anyone who
> does THAT is doing shit". That's not really a conversation point.
> Comparing Ono's work (not her "self") to such persons' work reveals _ I
> think - that much of her art is derivative, and less intelligently
> presented than the art she is descended from.
As you know, I think you just don't "get it" when it comes to her art, but
one of the difficulties in judging conceptual art is that (to give credit
where it's due, this is something Eddie Prevost said about AMM as opposed to
more traditional music) there are no objective standards of measurement. You
can look at a representational painting or scupture and measure it by how
accurate it is. You can listen to most music and measure it by how well it's
played, but ideas that you find witty or banal might not be perceived in the
same way by someone else, and there's no objective way to say one person is
right and the other is wrong.
That said, I wouldn't argue that all of her work is successful artistically.
Sometimes it seems like she doesn't have a critical faculty, that she'll
take any idea that pops into her head and realize it. Of course, this is the
same criticism that Paul McCartney often gets, and just as his failures
don't negate his successes, neither do Ono's. It's not necessarily a bad
philosophy. Just put everything out there and let the audience decide what
works and what doesn't.
brilton
> brilton <not...@notlirb.not.yet> wrote:
>
>
>>>>> Yes, they are. Don't forget that this is the same newsgroup where
>>>>> "rap is crap" is viewed as "wisdom."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> More wisdom!
>>>
>> Rosie, may I ask - is it possible to avoid your withering disdain if
>> one says merely "I personally don't like rap music very much" as opposed
>> to "rap music is crap"?
>>
>
> orientation, and no smug proclamations of "absolute truth."
>
> ...as opposed to this sort of fuddy-duddy garbage:
>
>
>> "Rap is Crap" sits well with other muso mottos like "Disco Sucks" from
>> the seventies. It's childishly simple, it's succinct, and sometimes,
>> it's the truth...
>>
>
> comes up here, some number of indignant crusties will wade in to
> make sweeping, anti-rap generalizations and believe they're actually
> contributing an informed, "superior" viewpoint of substance.
>
> I am not a big rap fan myself -- I don't know how many rap albums I
> own, but it's probably under 20
I have two, and neither of them later than 1989. I don't pretend that my
music tastes are broad. Eclectic perhaps, but not really broad.
> -- but I recognize that rappers are
> simply pushing their talents in directions which usually don't
> tickle my personal tastes.
Whilst I can appreciate the technical abilities of the better exponents
of the medium, I don't like the angry didacting yelling or the
misogynistic element of some of it.
> I'm not going to pull one of these
> scoffing, narcissistic "I'M the grand one who sees the Emperor has
> no clothes" stances which you recurrently see here. Or go even
> further, and make utterly ridiculous charges that rap shouldn't even
> be considered "music."
>
> Meanwhile, look at how my "withering disdain" gets resented by
> people who...just yearn to vent their own "withering disdain" for
> rap without anyone presenting an obstacle to their superficial,
> self-satisfied negativity.
>
Oh well look, I'm not arguing with you about any of this. I could've
used "excoriating scorn" or "dessicating disdain" or something, but it
was a light-hearted phrase. I hope.
Dale Houstman
BlackMonk wrote:
> "Dale Houstman" <dm...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
> news:45B7668B...@skypoint.com...
>
>>>The Daddy of Conceptual Art is Marcel Duchamp, whose work is witty, and
>>
>>highly intellectual, and a challenge to the very idea of art (and the
>>adoration of art in museums) itself. John Cage carries the process over
>>into music. It is much more useful to compare Ono's efforts to such
>>figures than it is simply to say "what she does is shit because anyone who
>>does THAT is doing shit". That's not really a conversation point.
>>Comparing Ono's work (not her "self") to such persons' work reveals _ I
>>think - that much of her art is derivative, and less intelligently
>>presented than the art she is descended from.
>
>
> As you know, I think you just don't "get it" when it comes to her art, but
> one of the difficulties in judging conceptual art is that (to give credit
> where it's due, this is something Eddie Prevost said about AMM as opposed to
> more traditional music) there are no objective standards of measurement. You
> can look at a representational painting or scupture and measure it by how
> accurate it is. You can listen to most music and measure it by how well it's
> played, but ideas that you find witty or banal might not be perceived in the
> same way by someone else, and there's no objective way to say one person is
> right and the other is wrong.
A conceptual artwork is judged by the quality of it ideas. Ideas may be
new or they may be entirely derivative. They can be verbally astute, or
they can be ham-fisted. They can contain several layers of meaning, or
they can be flat and obvious as a toupee on a melon. It is no more
strictly true that "judgements cannot be made about art" when one
applies it to conceptual art. All art is conceptual. Even in all the
other art forms you mention, objective measurement is not always a %100
thing; for instance, very very few "representational paintings or
sculpture" can be usefully criticized by merely comparing their subjects
to the artwork. So that problem as such exists throughout art. But if
you see a painting by someone named "Jeff Mudd" that is a vastly
inferior copy of one by Van Gogh, and which is "elevated" only by "Jeff
Mudd" adding a title such as "Imagine Peace Is A Flower" then one is
driven to either assume "Jeff Mudd" is an incompetent, or a devious punk
wit. But in Ono's case (and I do "get" her, I just don't like what I
"get"), there is no parodic wit, no technical splendor, nothing which is
not seen elsewhere in a sharper context, and nothing that is not
"telegraphed" to the point of flattening its aspect. She's not
interesting enough to be aggravating: her work is deathly dull.
>
> That said, I wouldn't argue that all of her work is successful artistically.
> Sometimes it seems like she doesn't have a critical faculty, that she'll
> take any idea that pops into her head and realize it. Of course, this is the
> same criticism that Paul McCartney often gets, and just as his failures
> don't negate his successes, neither do Ono's. It's not necessarily a bad
> philosophy. Just put everything out there and let the audience decide what
> works and what doesn't.
>
Paul has his ahare of duds certainly. But going on sheer percentage of
failure, Yoko beats him silly. In fact, considering her music, her
films, and her art, I cannot recall one success; it's not about an
occasional failure, but about a career of failure, dull failure,
self-important and pompous failure, and a career (such as it is) which
would have been entirely covered over by time and tide if not for one
fateful day in a London gallery. And - really- for a person who makes
such claims to the avant-garde, her work is strikingly timid and
conservative, never daring to challenge the mental ability of potential
viewers (and investors) beyond the easiest concepts. She is one of those
"artists" where the paraphrased/telegraphed/billboarded meaning is as
uninteresting as the form. Oh, a broken teacup one glues together over
the course of time, a film of asses, a pile of derivative and badly done
songs... Her only remaining artform - the one she has spent the most
time on by far - is being the widow of someone who was more interesting
than she was, and of making the occasional gnomic and empty statement
about "peace is like a cloud" or some such sub-Buddhist steamcake.
And I'm her audience also: I've made my decision. And it's not an
uneducated one for what that's worth.
dmh
fatt...@yahoo.com
> > Imagine your head is made of cottage cheese...sometimes it is........
>
> i have nothing against conceptual art.
> and i am not going to pretend that i am an expert of any art form.
> i believe that anyone in any professional walk of life should have some
> kind of education and skill and not simply declare themselves such.
> they should be able to exhibit they they understand the tools and rules
> of the trade.
> i think much of her stuff is silly and pointless and offers no light.
> it merely makes us aware of her - nothing more.
Well, in Yoko's mind, making the public aware of Yoko is almost the
whole point. It doesn't matter so much that the public likes it or
doesn't like it; it doesn't matter if this "art" or "music" or whatever
is forced on the public. What matters is The Yoke getting attention and
getting as much attention as possible. That is why she latched onto
John like wet toilet paper to an ass . . . . she knew years ago and
knows now that John was and is her meal ticket. Without John, most
people would simply not be interested and she would not get the
publicity.
fatt...@yahoo.com
On Jan 25, 12:04 am, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> BlackMonk wrote:
> > "Dale Houstman" <d...@skypoint.com> wrote in message
> >news:45B7668B...@skypoint.com...
>
> >>>The Daddy of Conceptual Art is Marcel Duchamp, whose work is witty, and
>
> >>highly intellectual, and a challenge to the very idea of art (and the
> >>adoration of art in museums) itself. John Cage carries the process over
> >>into music. It is much more useful to compare Ono's efforts to such
> >>figures than it is simply to say "what she does is shit because anyone who
> >>does THAT is doing shit". That's not really a conversation point.
> >>Comparing Ono's work (not her "self") to such persons' work reveals _ I
> >>think - that much of her art is derivative, and less intelligently
> >>presented than the art she is descended from.
>
> > As you know, I think you just don't "get it" when it comes to her art, but
> > one of the difficulties in judging conceptual art is that (to give credit
> > where it's due, this is something Eddie Prevost said about AMM as opposed to
> > more traditional music) there are no objective standards of measurement. You
> > can look at a representational painting or scupture and measure it by how
> > accurate it is. You can listen to most music and measure it by how well it's
> > played, but ideas that you find witty or banal might not be perceived in the
> > same way by someone else, and there's no objective way to say one person is
> > right and the other is wrong.A conceptual artwork is judged by the quality of it ideas. Ideas may be
> new or they may be entirely derivative. They can be verbally astute, or
> they can be ham-fisted. They can contain several layers of meaning, or
> they can be flat and obvious as a toupee on a melon. It is no more
> strictly true that "judgements cannot be made about art" when one
> applies it to conceptual art. All art is conceptual. Even in all the
> other art forms you mention, objective measurement is not always a %100
> thing; for instance, very very few "representational paintings or
> sculpture" can be usefully criticized by merely comparing their subjects
> to the artwork. So that problem as such exists throughout art. But if
> you see a painting by someone named "Jeff Mudd" that is a vastly
> inferior copy of one by Van Gogh, and which is "elevated" only by "Jeff
> Mudd" adding a title such as "Imagine Peace Is A Flower" then one is
> driven to either assume "Jeff Mudd" is an incompetent, or a devious punk
> wit. But in Ono's case (and I do "get" her, I just don't like what I
> "get"), there is no parodic wit, no technical splendor, nothing which is
> not seen elsewhere in a sharper context, and nothing that is not
> "telegraphed" to the point of flattening its aspect. She's not
> interesting enough to be aggravating: her work is deathly dull.
>
>
>
> > That said, I wouldn't argue that all of her work is successful artistically.
> > Sometimes it seems like she doesn't have a critical faculty, that she'll
> > take any idea that pops into her head and realize it. Of course, this is the
> > same criticism that Paul McCartney often gets, and just as his failures
> > don't negate his successes, neither do Ono's. It's not necessarily a bad
> > philosophy. Just put everything out there and let the audience decide what
> > works and what doesn't.Paul has his ahare of duds certainly. But going on sheer percentage of
> failure, Yoko beats him silly. In fact, considering her music, her
> films, and her art, I cannot recall one success; it's not about an
> occasional failure, but about a career of failure, dull failure,
> self-important and pompous failure, and a career (such as it is) which
> would have been entirely covered over by time and tide if not for one
> fateful day in a London gallery. And - really- for a person who makes
> such claims to the avant-garde, her work is strikingly timid and
> conservative, never daring to challenge the mental ability of potential
> viewers (and investors) beyond the easiest concepts. She is one of those
> "artists" where the paraphrased/telegraphed/billboarded meaning is as
> uninteresting as the form. Oh, a broken teacup one glues together over
> the course of time, a film of asses, a pile of derivative and badly done
> songs... Her only remaining artform - the one she has spent the most
> time on by far - is being the widow of someone who was more interesting
> than she was, and of making the occasional gnomic and empty statement
> about "peace is like a cloud" or some such sub-Buddhist steamcake.
>
> And I'm her audience also: I've made my decision. And it's not an
> uneducated one for what that's worth.
>
> dmh-
Well said.