Who Do You Believe?
F Parella
or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
best of them."
-- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
"I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
-- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
Bernie Woodham
"F Parella" <f_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:51a23d09-a5ab-47fd...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
McCartney
F Parella
> "F Parella" <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I'm with you on this one.
Lookingglass
"F Parella" <f_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote
It is more *melodic* than most of the songs Lennon wrote...though I consider
ACROSS THE UNIVERSE, STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER, A DAY IN THE LIFE and
others, very beautifully *melodic*.
I just finished reading A LENNON COMPANION. In that book is a chapter
written by Eric Tamm titled Beyond Strawberry Fields:Lennon's Later Style.
He describes Lennon's *musical* abilities and creations.
One paragraph begins... "John Lennon knew how to write a rock melody."
It goes into detail describing the style of melodies John wrote, as well as
his production values.
All that being said, I believe that it is more likely than not Paul
McCartney wrote the tune, or had the greater influence on the composition of
the melody. That is not to say that Lennon wasn't right there at the time
and suggested or commented on its creation. And the possibility of the
melody being a total Lennon creation is there too.
If you can get a copy, A LENNON COMPANION is a very enlightening and
informative read. (I only got my copy very recently, so they are available
if you are interested.)
BlackMonk
"Lookingglass" <Shem...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZvednbU7DdlZaYDV...@comcast.com...
>
> "F Parella" <f_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>> "But, of course, when I think of some of my own songs - 'In My Life,'
>> or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
>> best of them."
>>
>> -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>>
>> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>>
>> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
>
>
> It is more *melodic* than most of the songs Lennon wrote...though I
> consider
> ACROSS THE UNIVERSE, STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER, A DAY IN THE LIFE and
> others, very beautifully *melodic*.
>
I'd say Lennon. I hear melodic similarities between "In My Life" and other
songs he was writing around that time, such as "Rain" and "I'm Only
Sleeping."
Lookingglass
"BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote
>
> I'd say Lennon. I hear melodic similarities between "In My Life" and other
> songs he was writing around that time, such as "Rain" and "I'm Only
> Sleeping."
I think a similar comparison can be drawn between IN MY LIFE and HERE,
THERE, AND EVERYWHERE.
fatt...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> "F Parella" <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Why?
fatt...@yahoo.com
> On May 4, 1:10?pm, "Bernie Woodham" <birnhamw...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> > "F Parella" <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:51a23d09-a5ab-47fd...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > "But, of course, when I think of some of my own songs - 'In My Life,'
> > > or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
> > > best of them."
>
> > > -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>
>
> > > -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
>
> > McCartney
>
> I'm with you on this one.
Why?
fatt...@yahoo.com
> "Lookingglass" <Shemak...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ZvednbU7DdlZaYDV...@comcast.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "F Parella" <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> >> "But, of course, when I think of some of my own songs - 'In My Life,'
> >> or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
> >> best of them."
>
> >> -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>
> >> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>
> >> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
>
> > It is more *melodic* than most of the songs Lennon wrote...though I
> > consider
> > ACROSS THE UNIVERSE, STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER, A DAY IN THE LIFE and
> > others, very beautifully *melodic*.
>
> I'd say Lennon. I hear melodic similarities between "In My Life" and other
> songs he was writing around that time, such as "Rain" and "I'm Only
Yup.
Frankly, I don't know who is right . . . but it surprises me that so
many people are quick to discredit John's version.
Bernie Woodham
<fatt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:338e7551-fb3a-4fb4...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>Why?
Why not?
Nil
rec.music.beatles:
I believe Lennon. It just sounds like one of his melodies to me, and
his type or chord progression even more so. It's related to those 50s
doo-wop kinds of changes (especially the IV major to IV minor cliche),
and I think of John using those more than Paul did.
Maybe Paul helped on the middle bit.
Eric Ramon
> It's hard for me to verbalize exactly why, but the way the chords and
> melody are put together seems more like Lennon's style to me. It doesn't
> have the baroque elegance of the typical McCartney ballad ("Yesterday,"
> "Here There & Everywhere," etc.), where a lot of the chords are dictated
> by bass notes gracefully stepping up and down the scale. The chords jump
> around more. Certain Lennon songs -- moreso his solo songs, perhaps --
> have this intangible feel to me of heavy "slabs" of major chords being
> inserted like irregular layers...it's hard to put into words. "I Am the
> Walrus" is like this too...."#9 Dream".... This song, too.
>
> And the pace of the melody has some faintly jarring stop/starts and
> switches which also seem more Lennon-esque to me. "All these places have
> their moments" -- CRASH! -- "With lovers and friends I still..." --
> somewhat ungainly, upward twist here -- "...can recall"....
>
> The quirky chord change from "living...in" (A7) to "...myyyyy" (Cm) also
> seems more like Lennon. If I have the key right, anyway -- I've never
> cared a lot about figuring out Beatles songs in the proper key.
I, too, think it's a Lennon tune, although I have no "evidence" other
than he said so and he's singing it. But I did want to point out one
thing here.
"It doesn't have the baroque elegance of the typical McCartney ballad
("Yesterday," "Here There & Everywhere," etc.), where a lot of the
chords are dictated
by bass notes gracefully stepping up and down the scale"
My first thought about any Beatles tune described thusly is "Anytime
at All", which is definitely a John tune. I'm sure they influenced
each other to the point where it sometimes is not so clear as to who
wrote what.
Ehtue
news:ZvednbU7DdlZaYDV...@comcast.com:
>
> "F Parella" <f_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>> "But, of course, when I think of some of my own songs - 'In My Life,'
>> or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with
>> the best of them."
>>
>> -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>>
>> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>>
>> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
>
>
> It is more *melodic* than most of the songs Lennon wrote...though I
> consider ACROSS THE UNIVERSE, STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER, A DAY IN THE
> LIFE and others, very beautifully *melodic*.
If I Fell is not too shabby in that regard either.... and it's from an
earlier period.
-Ehtue
t...@aerovons.com
> Eric Ramon <ramon.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I, too, think it's a Lennon tune, although I have no "evidence" other
> > than he said so and he's singing it. But I did want to point out one
> > thing here.
>
> > "It doesn't have the baroque elegance of the typical McCartney ballad
> > ("Yesterday," "Here There & Everywhere," etc.), where a lot of the
> > chords are dictated
> > by bass notes gracefully stepping up and down the scale"
>
> > My first thought about any Beatles tune described thusly is "Anytime
> > at All", which is definitely a John tune. I'm sure they influenced
> > each other to the point where it sometimes is not so clear as to who
> > wrote what.
>
> head, I'd also cite "Cry Baby Cry." But I don't think this style is
> typical for him.
>
> (It's probably not coincidence that I seemingly enjoy "Anytime at All"
> and "Cry Baby Cry" more than the average Beatles fan -- I'm very big on
> baroque stepping and inverted chords.)
>
> Oh, and let me add "Sexy Sadie" to the list of Lennon songs which give
> me that fuzzily defined "heavy slabs of major chords" impression.
When I spoke with both Paul and George they could barely remember
anything, and when they did it was often wrong, as when I asked Paul a
guitar question and the answer I KNEW was wrong;) Fortunately George
DID remember on that one....sometimes I would ask them about something
they had done just a year or so before and George's favorite reply
always seemed to include the word "vaguely"....;) "Was there brass in
that one?" he replied when asked about "Got to Get You Into My
Life"? ;)
And though the nickname for the book "Lennon Remembers" was often
"Lennon Forgets"...."In My Life" strikes me as being very John, though
Paul's "Every Little Thing" at times bears some similarity in it's
angular bits. I do agree they influenced each so much that I'm sure
the line is seldom drawn in black and white.
TH
Dimitrios Paskoudniakis
"F Parella" <f_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:51a23d09-a5ab-47fd...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Lennon. He sang lead. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other
Lennon/McCartney tune in the entire catalog where, when the song had a
primary author, he let the other be the lead singer, so this should be no
exception.
fatt...@yahoo.com
> On 04 May 2008, F Parella <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote in
That is what John said . . . that Paul did the "middle bit."
O'Leary III
> Frankly, I don't know who is right . . . but it surprises me that so
> many people are quick to discredit John's version.
Two people. Two.
fatt...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> "F Parella" <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Usually the lead singer would indicate the main author, but that was
not always the case. My memory is fuzzy, but I believe Paul said in
Many Years From Now that he was the main writer for Eight Days a Week.
BTW, as for In My Life, I think both Paul and John agree that John did
most of the lyrics.
fatt...@yahoo.com
This is not the only place in the universe where this subject has been
discussed.
O'Leary III
> This is not the only place in the universe where this subject has been
> discussed.
Link please?
fatt...@yahoo.com
Enjoy:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=sausage+links&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
O'Leary III
> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=sausage+links&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
Exactly.
Now you know what you sound like.
fatt...@yahoo.com
>
> Exactly.
>
> Now you know what you sound like.
I sound like sausages?
O'Leary III
Nil
RichL
> It's hard for me to verbalize exactly why, but the way the chords and
> doesn't have the baroque elegance of the typical McCartney ballad
> ("Yesterday," "Here There & Everywhere," etc.), where a lot of the
> chords are dictated by bass notes gracefully stepping up and down the
> "slabs" of major chords being inserted like irregular layers...it's
> hard to put into words. "I Am the Walrus" is like this too...."#9
> Dream".... This song, too.
>
> And the pace of the melody has some faintly jarring stop/starts and
> switches which also seem more Lennon-esque to me. "All these places
> have their moments" -- CRASH! -- "With lovers and friends I still..."
> -- somewhat ungainly, upward twist here -- "...can recall"....
>
> The quirky chord change from "living...in" (A7) to "...myyyyy" (Cm)
> also seems more like Lennon. If I have the key right, anyway -- I've
> never cared a lot about figuring out Beatles songs in the proper key.
It's in A, so the corresponding chords are B7 and Dm, but yes, this is a
characteristic John Lennon change, and, together with the D->Dm sequence
at two points earlier in each verse, tags it as a Lennon composition. I
would be glad to cede to Paul in part of the lyrics; I understand that
John had an original set of lyrics that were much more specific.
RichL
> "But, of course, when I think of some of my own songs - 'In My Life,'
> or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
> best of them."
>
> -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>
> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>
> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
I believe that Paul indulged in his weed once too often. "In My Life"
has a couple of John's signature chord changes.
Crisstti
>
> - Show quoted text -
I guess it's because John contradicted himself so much in interviews.
Crisstti
> "But, of course, when I think of some of my own songs - 'In My Life,'
> or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
> best of them."
>
> -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>
> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>
> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
Paul did say in an interview in 1973 that he wrote the tune.
The World Wide Wade
poisoned rose <pr...@definitive.com> wrote:
> It's hard for me to verbalize exactly why, but the way the chords and
> melody are put together seems more like Lennon's style to me.
No question. This is a Lennon song.
The World Wide Wade
wrote:
D to Dm and other chord changes here almost a Lennon cliche (although
I never got tired of it); lyrics are mostly pure John to this listener.
i think John would crack up listening to the maudlin versions of his
baby played at weddings these days.
fatt...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
True . . . but who is perfect? :-)
BLACKPOOLJIMMY
>
> - Show quoted text -
bush...a perfect fool.
F Parella
> On May 4, 12:12�pm, F Parella <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 4, 1:10?pm, "Bernie Woodham" <birnhamw...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> > > "F Parella" <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:51a23d09-a5ab-47fd...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
> > > > best of them."
>
> > > > -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>
>
> > > > -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
>
>
> > I'm with you on this one.
>
> Why?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The melodies strike me as more characteristic of McCartney than
Lennon.
iarwain
Paul's description of writing the tune seems to be a little more
detailed than John's statements, he talked about John coming over with
the words and how he went off on his own to write the melody. So that
lends some credence to his claim, but it's possible he might be
confusing this song with a different one. Also, John is not around
any more to elaborate on his side of the story or defend it so it
seems like it would be a mistake to just accept Paul's as fact.
Maybe Paul had a hand in writing the melody but has forgotten some of
John's contributions. Maybe John had a bit of melody to start with
that Paul took to develop. Maybe Paul wrote part of a melody and John
finished it. We'll never know what realy happened for certain.
Many people have said that the melody to In My Life is characteristic
of Paul because of the way the notes go up and down, but I've never
quite bought this claim. These people also tend to describe John's
melodies as merely one note repeated over and over.
Nancy
"F Parella" <f_pa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:51a23d09-a5ab-47fd...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> "But, of course, when I think of some of my own songs - 'In My Life,'
> or some of the early stuff, 'This Boy' - I was writing melody with the
> best of them."
>
> -- John Lennon, in the Playboy interview
>
>
> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
I believe George Martin wrote the "Bach" part.
Sean Carroll
>> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>>
>> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
> I believe George Martin wrote the "Bach" part.
You mean the piano sped up to sound like a harpsichord? I don't know if you
could technically call it 'writing'. I've read that Martin simply laid it
down on the fly while the boys were at lunch, or something like that. Does
it count as 'writing' if there's no paper involved?
--
--Sean
http://spclsd223.livejournal.com
House: I invited you because bowling isn't one of the two things guys do by
themselves.
Chase: What's the second thing?
House: Other hand.
Manfred Noland
WHY ?
Well first off, he sings the lead vocal.
Also, it is reminiscent of " ANNA" by Arthur Alexander right down to
even the same drum part. This was a favorite tune of Lennon's.
Also, to my horror and dismay, I read an article a few years back
that basically accused Lennon of stealing the lyrics almost verbatim
from a poem. I read it & was shocked.
Although McCartney later did the same exact form of theft on " Golden
Slumbers ".
Manfred Noland
minor, and dramatic stop for the last vocal in falsetto are almost
exactly what Lennon does in the shoo wop ending section of HAPPINESS IS
A WARM GUN. Definately a Lennon song.
Manfred Noland
"I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
-- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
I believe George Martin wrote the "Bach" part.
You mean the piano sped up to sound like a harpsichord? I don't know if
you could technically call it 'writing'. I've read that Martin simply
laid it down on the fly while the boys were at lunch, or something like
that. Does it count as 'writing' if there's no paper involved?
--
--Sean
All George Martin did was add a solo over the chords of the verse. Big
deal. If you think that makes him a co-author then I guess every
Lennon-McCarney song George Harrison played a solo over should credit
George Harrison as a writer too.
MikeLawyr2
minute of tape in the vault for analysis NOW, so that scholars can
confront those who are left who were "there" and resolve as many of
these questions as possible.
Someone needs to sit with Ringo, for example, and listen with him to
song after song and ask him questions such as, "Who was doing the
tambourine on this one?" or "Do you remember who got the idea for you
to change your drum part between these two takes?"
Jeff
I'm wondering if these type of questions are in the Stones group?
Stephen X. Carter
>On May 6, 8:03=A0am, MikeLawyr2 <Mbuxb...@lowenstein.com> wrote:
>> This little debate here is why it's SO IMPORTANT to release every
>> minute of tape in the vault for analysis NOW, so that scholars can
>> confront those who are left who were "there" and resolve as many of
>> these questions as possible.
>>
>> Someone needs to sit with Ringo, for example, and listen with him to
>> song after song and ask him questions such as, "Who was doing the
>> tambourine on this one?" =A0or "Do you remember who got the idea for you
>> to change your drum part between these two takes?"
>
>I'm wondering if these type of questions are in the Stones group?
No.
It's a pretty moribund group.
There's also a scale issue.
The Beatles only recorded in a timeframe of 1962 to 1970, and they recorded in very few places,
were pretty well organised, and the ownership of the masters/tapes is precisely defined.
The Stones have recorded from 1963 to 2007, have recorded all over the worls, are chaotic, and
there's deep legal issues on the ownership of anything before 1971 (Klein).
--
steve.hat.stephencarter.not.com.but.net
Nothing is Beatle Proof!!
RichL
> "Nancy" <k...@msn.com> wrote
>
>>> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>>>
>>> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
>
>> I believe George Martin wrote the "Bach" part.
>
> You mean the piano sped up to sound like a harpsichord? I don't know
> if you could technically call it 'writing'. I've read that Martin
> simply laid it down on the fly while the boys were at lunch, or
> something like that. Does it count as 'writing' if there's no paper
> involved?
Sure, otherwise a substantial fraction of rock songs would have no
songwriter associated with them! Sometimes only the lyrics get written
down, and on occasion even they aren't in cases where a musician uses a
"stream-of-consciousness" approach.
Bernie Woodham
"Manfred Noland" <RockN...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10483-482...@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net...
>
> Also, to my horror and dismay, I read an article a few years back
> that basically accused Lennon of stealing the lyrics almost verbatim
> from a poem. I read it & was shocked.
> Although McCartney later did the same exact form of theft on " Golden
> Slumbers ".
>
The words from Golden Slumbers was public domain. Therefore no theft.
If you read that poem why didn't you list the name of the poem and the
author? I'd like to see some backup on that accusation.
fatt...@yahoo.com
> " IN MY LIFE " I'd tend to believe Lennon.
> WHY ?
> Well first off, he sings the lead vocal.
> Also, it is reminiscent of " ANNA" by Arthur Alexander right down to
> even the same drum part. This was a favorite tune of Lennon's.
> Also, to my horror and dismay, I read an article a few years back
> that basically accused Lennon of stealing the lyrics almost verbatim
> from a poem. I read it & was shocked.
I find that accusation a bit hard to believe. I've seen a book or two
with copies of different drafts of the lyrics that seemed quite
specific to Liverpool or a trip down memory lane similar to Penny Lane.
Lookingglass
"Sean Carroll" <sean...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>>>
>>> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
>
>> I believe George Martin wrote the "Bach" part.
>
> You mean the piano sped up to sound like a harpsichord? I don't know if
> you could technically call it 'writing'. I've read that Martin simply laid
> it down on the fly while the boys were at lunch, or something like that.
> Does it count as 'writing' if there's no paper involved?
>
> http://spclsd223.livejournal.com
Semantic antics...!!! How about *composed*? That word describes what you are
saying Sean.
;^)
Jeff
wrote:
> "Manfred Noland" <RockNRo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
We're in a court room?
Lookingglass
"Jeff" <yourimag...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
On May 6, 10:19 am, "Bernie Woodham" <birnhamw...@insightbb.com>
wrote:
> "Manfred Noland" <RockNRo...@webtv.net> wrote
>
> > Also, to my horror and dismay, I read an article a few years back
> > that basically accused Lennon of stealing the lyrics almost verbatim
> > from a poem. I read it & was shocked.
> If you read that poem why didn't you list the name of the poem and the
> author? I'd like to see some backup on that accusation.
We're in a court room?
*******************************
I too would be interested in reading that poem and knowing who the author
was. I have never heard this accusation before.
tallerte...@gmail.com
> "Jeff" <yourimageunre...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
Yeah, neither had I.
Bernie Woodham
"Jeff" <yourimag...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0c0f502f-50b4-43b3...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Courtroom of public opinion.
Jones
the same chords. So maybe George Martin wrote them both.
Timothy J
MikeLawyr2
group. The Rolling Stones are a great, kick-ass band, but they didn't
change the world.
RichL
They're related but not identical (even considering the key change).
BlackMonk
"Bernie Woodham" <birnh...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:JL-dnXIKF6ON6r3V...@insightbb.com...
>
> "Manfred Noland" <RockN...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:10483-482...@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net...
>>
>> Also, to my horror and dismay, I read an article a few years back
>> that basically accused Lennon of stealing the lyrics almost verbatim
>> from a poem. I read it & was shocked.
>> Although McCartney later did the same exact form of theft on " Golden
>> Slumbers ".
>>
>
> The words from Golden Slumbers was public domain. Therefore no theft.
>
You mean if you copy something that's in public domain, you really wrote it
yourself?
BlackMonk
"MikeLawyr2" <Mbux...@lowenstein.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f175d-b2ac-4362...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I'm sure that's exactly how someone approaching 70, who has seen a lot of
his friends pass away and who didn't exactly take care of himself when he
was younger, would like to spend his time.
Nil
rec.music.beatles:
> You mean if you copy something that's in public domain, you really
> wrote it yourself?
When you drink rainwater falling from the sky, are you stealing it?
Mackenzie
> "Nancy" <k...@msn.com> wrote
>
> >> "I wrote the tune for 'In My Life.' It was my tune."
>
> >> -- McCartney, to Hunter Davies in 1986
> > I believe George Martin wrote the "Bach" part.
>
I always that Martin originally played the song at half the tempo of
the song, but the tape speed had to be doubled to complete the hole
left in the bridge. It reminds me of another Baroque piece by Bach
"Mass in B Minor".
I personally can't believe McCartney would deny his part in creating
'In My Life" to Hunter Davies, unless parts of this interview are left
out. He told his biographer, Barry Miles that he was primarily
responsible for putting Lennon's lyrics to the music, a very big chunk
of "In My life" is McCartney's as well as John's.
RichL
It still would have been nice to give credit to the poet (provided the
words are close to the lyrics used in the song).
A good example of doing this is provided by the Byrds' "Turn Turn Turn",
which credits both Ecclesiates and Pete Seeger for the song.
Nil
rec.music.beatles:
> It still would have been nice to give credit to the poet (provided
> the words are close to the lyrics used in the song).
>
> A good example of doing this is provided by the Byrds' "Turn Turn
> Turn", which credits both Ecclesiates and Pete Seeger for the
> song.
I agree, it would have been nice. And it would have shown a certain
smart awareness of literature. But after 350 years, I guess nobody
thought it was important or legally necessary.
I don't think Paul has ever denied where he got that lyric from.
Lookingglass
"Nil" <rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote
> On 06 May 2008, "RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>> It still would have been nice to give credit to the poet (provided
>> the words are close to the lyrics used in the song).
>>
>> A good example of doing this is provided by the Byrds' "Turn Turn
>> Turn", which credits both Ecclesiates and Pete Seeger for the
>> song.
>
> I agree, it would have been nice. And it would have shown a certain
> smart awareness of literature. But after 350 years, I guess nobody
> thought it was important or legally necessary.
>
> I don't think Paul has ever denied where he got that lyric from.
Here is the story as to McCartney's GOLDEN SLUMBERS...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Slumbers
IT is a well documented fact. This article names the original poet. However
I am more interested in reading the poem Walrus claims to have read that
Lennon supposedly *cribbed* to write IN MY LIFE.
Nil
rec.music.beatles:
> However I am more interested in reading the poem Walrus claims to
> have read that Lennon supposedly *cribbed* to write IN MY LIFE.
I think he made that story up.
Lookingglass
"Nil" <rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote
> On 07 May 2008, "Lookingglass" <Shem...@comcast.net> wrote
>
>> However I am more interested in reading the poem Walrus claims to
>> have read that Lennon supposedly *cribbed* to write IN MY LIFE.
> I think he made that story up.
I suspect so. That would be a VERY important *fact* in Beatle lore, and I
have never heard that one before. But I haven't heard everything...yet!
Lizz Holmans
Hardly. Thomas Dekker wrote the words to 'Golden Slumbers' centuries
ago. It is definitely in the public domain, but that doesn't mean we
don't know who wrote it.
Putting music to poetry, even if it's not your own poetry, has been
going on for as long as there were poets and musicians.
Lizz 'but I still love Beethoven's poems' Holmans
--
wotthehell have i done to deserve all these kittens
Bernie Woodham
"BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:fvqr67$i8k$1...@aioe.org...
anything in the public domain. However, nobody has ever been prosecuted for
it and the maximum penalty would only be $2,500.00.
However, you can claim a copyright on a "derivative work", which is what
McCartney's use would be considered.
Lookingglass
"Lizz Holmans" <di...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote
>
> Hardly. Thomas Dekker wrote the words to 'Golden Slumbers' centuries
> ago. It is definitely in the public domain, but that doesn't mean we
> don't know who wrote it.
>
> Putting music to poetry, even if it's not your own poetry, has been
> going on for as long as there were poets and musicians.
>
> Lizz 'but I still love Beethoven's poems' Holmans
An interesting twist on this is adapting a poem by another writer and
writing a lyric for a song. An example being RICHARD COREY by Simon and
Garfunkel. It was originally a poem by the 19th century writer Edwin
Arlington Robinson. The Simon and Garfunkel lyric uses only the idea of the
original poem, not the original words.
fatt...@yahoo.com
> On 06 May 2008, "BlackMonk" <BlackM...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> rec.music.beatles:
>
> > You mean if you copy something that's in public domain, you really
> > wrote it yourself?
>
> When you drink rainwater falling from the sky, are you stealing it?
That's an interesting Zen question.
JohnB
> "BlackMonk" <BlackM...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fvqr67$i8k$1...@aioe.org...
>
>
>
> > "Bernie Woodham" <birnhamw...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> >news:JL-dnXIKF6ON6r3V...@insightbb.com...
>
> >> "Manfred Noland" <RockNRo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> >>news:10483-482...@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net...
>
> >>> Also, to my horror and dismay, I read an article a few years back
> >>> that basically accused Lennon of stealing the lyrics almost verbatim
> >>> from a poem. I read it & was shocked.
> >>> Although McCartney later did the same exact form of theft on " Golden
> >>> Slumbers ".
>
> >> The words from Golden Slumbers was public domain. Therefore no theft.
>
> > You mean if you copy something that's in public domain, you really wrote
> > it yourself?
>
> Technically, in the U.S. at least, it is illegal to claim a copyright on
> anything in the public domain. However, nobody has ever been prosecuted for
> it and the maximum penalty would only be $2,500.00.
>
> However, you can claim a copyright on a "derivative work", which is what
> McCartney's use would be considered.
Does this apply to melody as well as lyrics? Did Bob Dylan ever
acknowledge the sources of the tunes he used for songs such as Masters
Of War and With God On Our Side? And how "derivative" does it have to
be before you can claim copyright?
Being familiar with folk music, I know that a lot of stuff is
accredited "Trad. arr ..." even if it is a simple solo a capella
rendition - and this has something to do with royalties.
Bernard
> "Nil" <rednoise+n...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote
>
> > On 07 May 2008, "Lookingglass" <Shemak...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> >> However I am more interested in reading the poem Walrus claims to
> >> have read that Lennon supposedly *cribbed* to write IN MY LIFE.
> > I think he made that story up.
>
> I suspect so. That would be a VERY important *fact* in Beatle lore, and I
> have never heard that one before. But I haven't heard everything...yet!
>
> www.Shemakhan.com
He's probably thinking of Charles Lambs' "The Old Familiar Faces."
People have been pointing out the similarity for many years now.
The Old Familiar Faces
I have had playmates, I have had companions,
In my days of childhood, in my joyful school-days--
All, all are gone, the old familiar faces.
I have been laughing, I have been carousing,
Drinking late, sitting late, with my bosom cronies--
All, all are gone, the old familiar faces.
I loved a Love once, fairest among women:
Closed are her doors on me, I must not see her--
All, all are gone, the old familiar faces.
I have a friend, a kinder friend has no man:
Like an ingrate, I left my friend abruptly;
Left him, to muse on the old familiar faces.
Ghost-like I paced round the haunts of my childhood,
Earth seem'd a desert I was bound to traverse,
Seeking to find the old familiar faces.
Friend of my bosom, thou more than a brother,
Why wert not thou born in my father's dwelling?
So might we talk of the old familiar faces--
How some they have died, and some they have left me,
And some are taken from me; all are departed--
All, all are gone, the old familiar faces.
Charles Lamb (1775–1834)
Manfred Noland
***********************************************
Thank you. My sentiments exactly !
Manfred Noland
Re: Who Do You Believe?
Group: rec.music.beatles Date: Tue, May 6, 2008, 11:32am (EDT-3) From:
Shem...@comcast.net (Lookingglass)
I would also because I read it in a magazine and I have no idea what the
poem's title is or who the author was.
I was hoping someone here might shed some light on this. - Manfred
Manfred Noland
***********************************************
Thank you. I belive this IS the poem I read in a magazine several year
ago showing the source for IN MY LIFE. Though not verbatim..it is easy
to see why the article claimed a lack of originality on John's part.
Theft or inspiration......that is the question.
Bernie Woodham
<fatt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eb8173c9-1b76-4fa5...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
You mean he stole it? He violated Zen's copyright?
Bernie Woodham
"JohnB" <john...@tinyworld.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2c1a804d-ae81-4d41...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Dylan was able to get away with what he did I do not know. He didn't always.
I believe he made an out of court settlement on "Don't Think Twice". But
"With God On Our Side", I don't know that anything ever happened. "Masters
of War" I wasn't aware of, but you also have "Fourth Time Around". In one
of the Dylan biographies there is a coversation with Al Kooper where Kooper
is telling Dylan that The Beatles could sue him and Dylan replies "Nah, they
can't sue me." And they never did. I don't know if that was just out of
friendship or if there was actually some legal loophole. Some people think
that Lennon and Dylan may have collaborated on the melody on the melody at
one time. Or maybe Lennon was just embarrassed at how obvious Dylan's
influence was. Anyway, Dylan got away with quite a bit.
As to your last question, I'm not a lawyer. But I read stuff about
copyright now and then. It can get pretty complicated. Here is an example:
http://blog.librarylaw.com/librarylaw/2006/03/the_tale_of_one.html
> Being familiar with folk music, I know that a lot of stuff is
> accredited "Trad. arr ..." even if it is a simple solo a capella
> rendition - and this has something to do with royalties.
Yeah, I've ran into something about that before, too. But I can't remember.
However, as to the article I quoted above, it seems that Woody Guthrie's
"This Land is Your Land" is public domain. This fact was unearthed during
a copyright dispute with the Jib Jab folks. The article above links to it,
but here is it's link:
http://blog.librarylaw.com/librarylaw/2004/08/ithis_land_is_y.html
Bob
Charles Lamb (1775-1834)
***********************************************
Thank you. I belive this IS the poem I read in a magazine several year
ago showing the source for IN MY LIFE. Though not verbatim..it is easy
to see why the article claimed a lack of originality on John's part.
Theft or inspiration......that is the question.
Every artist is "inspired" by anything they have heard, read, experienced,
what have you.
Nil
rec.music.beatles:
> Thank you. I belive this IS the poem I read in a magazine several
> year ago showing the source for IN MY LIFE. Though not
> verbatim..it is easy to see why the article claimed a lack of
> originality on John's part. Theft or inspiration......that is the
> question.
Obviously not theft - I don't there there are even two consecutive
words in the song that are the same as in the poem. The share similar
subjects, but the conclusions are different.
Bernie Woodham
"Nil" <rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9A977665...@216.196.97.136...
It's quite a stretch to even compare the two. I fail to see how anyone could
have been "Shocked".
Lookingglass
"Bernard" <bernard...@live.com> wrote
The Old Familiar Faces
Charles Lamb (1775–1834)
***************************************
Thanks for the reference Bernard. I can see how someone could use this poem
as a reference...like my comparison of the original RICHARD COREY to that of
Paul Simon's lyric.
Bip Bop
> "Bernard" <bernardjortc...@live.com> wrote
Could be "I Can't Help Myself"... "Sugar pie, honey bunch!", but it
sure isn't "In My Life".
Now, Yoko claiming "Who Has Seen The Wind" when it actually was a poem
by Christina Rossetti was a TOTALLY rip off!
fatt...@yahoo.com
> bernardjortc...@live.com (Bernard)
IMO John's song does not even resemble Lamb's poem. I bet there are
many songs and poems which talk longingly about old people and
places. But In My Life is very original nevertheless.
fatt...@yahoo.com
> <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
LOL.
fatt...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow! When did Rossetti write her poem?
Bip Bop
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Wow! When did Rossetti write her poem?
It's from Christina Rossetti's "Sing-Song - A Nursery Rhyme Book"
written in 1872.
fatt...@yahoo.com
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Wow! When did Rossetti write her poem?
>
> It's from Christina Rossetti's "Sing-Song - A Nursery Rhyme Book"
> written in 1872.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks.
fatt...@yahoo.com
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Wow! When did Rossetti write her poem?
>
> It's from Christina Rossetti's "Sing-Song - A Nursery Rhyme Book"
> written in 1872.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I just glanced at a few of her poems. Many of them are lovely. Thanks
for the link.
MikeLawyr2
What is the sound of Bob Dole clapping?
Bip Bop
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Wow! When did Rossetti write her poem?
>
> > It's from Christina Rossetti's "Sing-Song - A Nursery Rhyme Book"
> > written in 1872.
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I just glanced at a few of her poems. Many of them are lovely. Thanks
> for the link.
Absolutely!
Bip Bop
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Wow! When did Rossetti write her poem?
>
> > It's from Christina Rossetti's "Sing-Song - A Nursery Rhyme Book"
> > written in 1872.
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I just glanced at a few of her poems. Many of them are lovely. Thanks
> for the link.
Here is another profoundly great one!
Jewels
An emerald is as green as grass;
A ruby red as blood;
A sapphire shines as blue as heaven;
A flint lies in the mud.
A diamond is a brilliant stone,
To catch the world's desire;
An opal holds a fiery spark;
But a flint holds fire.
+ Christina Rossetti +
O'Leary III
> Being familiar with folk music, I know that a lot of stuff is
> accredited "Trad. arr ..." even if it is a simple solo a capella
> rendition - and this has something to do with royalties.
Scarborough Fair is listed like that.
BlackMonk
"poisoned rose" <pr...@definitive.com> wrote in message
news:9ioUj.15107$V14....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> > Though not verbatim..it is easy
>> > to see why the article claimed a lack of originality on John's part.
>
>
> Maybe the original poet invented wistful nostalgia, and I just didn't
> realize.
I can see some connection with these lines:
> How some they have died, and some they have left me, And some are taken
> from me; all are departed-- All, all are gone, the old familiar faces.
Not enough to claim plagarism, but enough that the poem might have had some
influence, though it's not unreasonable to think otherwise.
BlackMonk
"Bip Bop" <bip...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:94607a7f-88f3-448b...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
You mean all of "Who Has Seen The Wind" was written by Rossetti? Even the
reference to John Lennon?
One verse out of three was written by Rosetti. It was no more or less a "rip
off" than "Golden Slumbers" or "Richard Corey."
BlackMonk
"Nil" <rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote in message
> On 06 May 2008, "BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> rec.music.beatles:
>
>> You mean if you copy something that's in public domain, you really
>> wrote it yourself?
>
> When you drink rainwater falling from the sky, are you stealing it?
That's a poor comparison. When you drink rainwater falling from the sky,
you're not claiming to have created the rainwater.
Nil
rec.music.beatles:
> That's a poor comparison. When you drink rainwater falling from
> the sky, you're not claiming to have created the rainwater.
I don't believe Lennon/McCartney were under any legal obligation to
give writing credit to the centurys-dead author. They are as free to
use as the falling rain. I've never heard Paul deny the the source of
those lines. He never claimed to have created the parts he borrowed.
Bernie Woodham
"Nil" <rednoi...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote in message
BlackMonk is like a lot of people nowadays who don't understand Public
Domain. The people out their who try to monopolize copyright depend on
people like him. They don't seem to understand that copyright is the
"novel" concept, not public domain.
RichL
I don't think BlackMonk is claiming that what was done was illegal.
There's a difference between legal and right. Copyright laws weren't
violated; it has nothing to do with that.
I don't feel really strongly about this, don't get me wrong. It would
have been nice, though, for the poem to be attributed, either on the
label or the liner notes.
Bernie Woodham
"RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:n6uUj.51691$Bb3.11135@trnddc01...
that there is something morally wrong about what they did. And I'm getting
the two people mixed up a bit BlackMonk and Manfred.
The Beatles were always pretty open about their influences and inspirations.
McCartney openly admitted that he used a Chuck Berry bass part on "I Saw Her
Standing There". But Berry was never formally credited. Lennon openly
admitted that "Because" was inspired by Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata".
Lennon never denied using the Chuck Berry line in "Come Together" - and
although that was far from plagiarism he paid for it just to avoid the legal
hassle.
And I can go on about their honesty, but the thing is although
McCartney/Lennon might have had differences with each other in their
memories, there is really no reason to doubt at all what they say about the
origins of their ideas. So, you can read their explanation of "In My Life"
and see that the song had nothing to do with the aforementioned poem . And I
doubt that it was even an unconcious influence because of the way Lennon
began writing it. (See Wiki on the song).
As for McCartney's use in Golden Slumbers -- there is enough difference in
the words to see it as whole different lyric, without credit being needed.
But, again, McCartney never attempted to decieve anyone about it's origin.
What is very strange is that nobody complains about Lennon's use of the
Shakespeare production in "Strawberry Fields". THAT was a copyright
violation. Nobody complains about Lennon's use of Greensleeves in "All You
Need Is Love". Not a copyright violation, but Greensleeves went uncredited.
I don't know. This just hit a sore point with me. I don't think The Beatles
ever gave any album credits to any of the musicians that played on their
records, except for Billy Preston.
abe slaney
> What is very strange is that nobody complains about Lennon's use of the
> Shakespeare production in "Strawberry Fields".
Walrus.