A Beatles Timeline
Ted Goranson
For a book I am putting together, I am assembling a timeline of key
events, this of interest to my presentation. Here is it for your use.
I'd appreciate any additions and corrections you may suggest..
Best, Ted
____________
7 July 40 Richard Starkey born
9 Oct 40 John Winston Lennon born
18 Jun 42 James Paul McCartney born
25 Feb 43 George Harrison born
31 Oct 56 Pauląs mother dies
Mar 57 Quarry Men formed
6 July 57 Paul joins
Feb 58 George joins
15 Jul 58 Johnąs mother killed
58 Jane Asher makes stage debut with łAlice in Wonderland˛
Jan 60 Stu Sutcliffe joins
May 60 Royston Ellis introduces them to speed
17 Aug 60 First trip to Hamburg (106 nights)
12 Nov 60 Lord Buckley dies
1 Apr 61 Return to Hamburg for 13 weeks
Jun 61 Back in Hamburg
21 Nov 61 Deported from Germany, Stu stays
27 Dec 61 Beatlemania begins with Liverpool concert
10 Apr 62 Stu Sutcliffe dies of injuries from John
13 Apr 62 Back in Hamburg for 7 weeks
18 Aug 62 Ringo joins
23 Aug 62 John marries Cynthia Powell
1 Nov 62 Return to Hamburg for 14 nights
18 Dec 62 Last return to Hamburg 13 nights
8 Apr 63 John Charles Julian Lennon born
18 Apr 63 Paul meets 17 year old Jane Asher
22 Jul 63 US łIntroducing the Beatles˛ released
Nov 63 Paul moves into Asher home
Jan 64 Beatles get Bob Dylanąs Freewheeliną in Paris
20 Jan 64 US łMeet the Beatles˛ released
9 Feb 64 Ed Sullivan Show first appearance (largest audience til then)
2 Mar 64 łA Hard Dayąs Night˛ filming starts
23 Mar 64 łIn His Own Write˛ published
10 Apr 64 US łThe Beatles Second Album˛ released
26 Jun 64 US łA Hard Days Night˛ album released
Jul 64 John buys Weybridge (doesnąt move in)
28 Aug 64 Meet Dylan and first marijuana
15 Dec 64 łBeatles 65˛ released
11 Feb 65 Ringo marries Maureen Cox
Mar 65 First LSD for John and George from dentist, Georgeąs house as submarine
13 Apr 65 Paul buys Cavendish
12 Jun 65 MBE awarded
24 Jun 65 łA Spaniard in the Works˛ published
Aug 65 John and George second LSD trip in LA with Fonda
27 Aug 65 Beatles meet Elvis
21 Jan 66 George marries Pattie Boyd
Jan 66 John returns to LSD seriously
Jan 66 Paul hears Alfred Jarryąs łUbu Cocu˛ on BBc 3rd radio. Big deal
24 Feb 66 Paul attends reading of Joyceąs Ulysses set to radical music. Big deal
Feb ?? 66 Pauląs first LSD
6 Apr 66 łRevolver˛ recording begins
Mar 66 Paul moves into Cavendish, buys Martha, and Thisbe (from MSND) the cat
26 May 66 John filmed by Pennebaker with Dylan
Apr 66 Paul buys łGloria˛ (carp) and łThe Countess of Monte Cristo˛ from
Magritte
22 Jun 66 łRevolver˛ recording ends
24 Jun 66 łRevolver˛ name devised
Jul 66 łPet Sounds˛ released as big challenge
Aug 66 Paul buys Magritteąs łLe Jeu de mourre˛
29 Aug 66 Final concert in Candlestick Park
Fall 66 Georgeąs first trip to India; Paul and Mal on safari in East
Africa; John in Almería (Strawberry Fields/Magus)
Sep 66 Yoko and husband arrive in London
Sep 66 Brian attempts suicide
Sep 66 Paul turns down offer to write for łAs You Like It˛
Oct 66 ?? The Fool arrive in London
Oct 66 Paul gives Yoko crayon words to łthe Word˛ for John Cageąs birthday
Oct 66 Fool meets/befriends Yoko
Nov 66 John and Paul meet The Fool
7 Nov 66 John meets Yoko at Indica, she starts mail barrage
24 Nov 66 Sgt Pepper recording begins
10 Feb 67 The łA Day in the Life˛ chord session
28 Feb 67 łLucy in the Sky˛ written mostly in the studio
21 Mar 67 Pauląs second LSD (with John)
Apr 67 Magic Alex joins Beatles circle as Johnąs guru
3 Apr 67 Paul in SF, notes merry pranksters
19 April 67 Beatles sold 80% of selves to Apple Corps
15 May 67 Paul first meets Linda
26 May 67 Sgt Pepper released
12 Jun 67 Pauląs łThe Family Way˛ sound track released
25 Jun 67 łOur World˛ łAll You Need is Love˛ broadcast
Jul 67 Pauląs Meditation chapel started
20 Jul 67 Beatles (with Jane) to Greece to buy island
1 Aug 67 George in SF
Aug 67 Magritte dies
24 Aug 67 Beatles attend Maharishi lecture
25 Aug 67 Beatles go to Maharishi retreat in Bangor (with Jagger)
27 Aug 67 Brian Epstein dies
Sep 67 John goes on week-long acid trips
11-24 Sep 67 MMT filmed
27 Nov 67 MMT album released
5 Dec 67 Apple Boutique opens, Alexąs artificial sun fails to appear
26 Dec 67 MMT premiers on TV
15 Feb 68 John and George to Rishikesh
19 Feb 68 Paul and Ringo to Rishikesh
7 Mar 68 Ringo returns
14 Mar 68 ?? Magic Alex forces Johnąs return
26 March 68 Paul and Jane return quite pleased
Mar 68 ?? John and Paul on Tonight Show
15 May 68 Apple Corps announced in NY, Paul remeets Linda
18 May 68 John announces he is Jesus, starts overt affair with Yoko,
records łTwo Virgins˛
May 68 John and Yoko on heroin
May 68 The Fool in NY
31 May 68 White Album recording begins
15 Jun 68 John and Yokoąs łacorn event˛
20-24 Jun 68 Paul meets Linda in LA
1 Jul 68 John and Yokoąs łYou Are Here˛ show at the Robert Frazier Gallery
Jul 68 Jane breaks off with Paul, accidentally discards his Liverpool notebook
28 Jul 68 Mad Day Out photo session
31 Jul 68 Apple Boutique closed
8 Aug 68 George temporarily quits
22 Aug 68 Ringo temporarily quits
24 Sep 68 Linda moves in
14 Oct 68 White Album recording ends
16 Oct 68 Paul and Linda in NY for 10 days
18 Oct 68 John and Yoko arrested for drugs
31 Oct 68 Paul and Linda settle in Hyde Park
8 Nov 68 Johnąs divorce final
11 Nov 68 łTwo Virgins˛ released
13 Nov 68 łYellow Submarine˛ released
22 Nov 68 łWhite Album˛ released
23 Nov 68 Yoko miscarries
28 Nov 68 John and Yoko in court
2 Dec 68 łWonderwall˛ released
2 Jan 69 łLet it Be˛ filming begins
10 Jan 69 George temporarily quits, returns on condition of no concerts
12 Jan 69 Beatles show up at Alexąs unfinished studio
13 Jan 69 łYellow Submarine˛ album released
27 Jan 69 John and Yoko meet Klein
30 Jan 69 łLet it Be˛ rooftop concert
30 Jan 69 Tony divorced from Yoko
3 Feb 69 Three Beatles vote for Klein
12 Mar 69 Paul marries Linda Eastman (4 months pregnant)
20 Mar 69 John marries Yoko Ono
Apr 69 Linda takes łstatue˛ photos
26 May 69 łLife with the Lions˛ released
26 May 69 łElectronic Sound˛ released
1 July 69 łAbbey Road˛ recording begins
1 Jul 69 Johnąs car accident, Yoko injured
11 Aug 69 John moves to Tittenhurst
20 Aug 69 Last recording session with all four (łSheąs So Heavy˛)
28 Aug 69 Mary McCartney born
13 Sep 69 Plastic Ono band debuts
20 Sep 69 John announces his departure (partly over łMary Jane˛)
27 Sep 69? John goes cold turkey off heroin
29 Sep 69 łWedding Album˛ released
13 Oct 69 Yoko miscarries again (too many abortions)
15 Oct 69 Alex arranges trip to Greece for John
12 Dec 69 łLive Peace in Toronto˛ released
20 Dec 69? Paul begins solo album
22 Dec 69 John and Yoko meet with Pierre Trudeau
27 Dec 69 John and Yoko do extraterrestrial in Denmark for three weeks
4 Jan 70 Final taping of łLet it Be,˛ last recording session
Feb 70 Johnąs breakdown
5 Mar 70 John tries cold turkey, then both check into clinic
10 Apr 70 Paul publicly leaves Beatles
20 Apr 70 łMcCartney˛ released
24 Apr 70 łSentimental Journey˛ released
27 Apr 70 John and Yoko in LA for intense scream therepy
8 May 70 łLet It Be˛ released
Aug 70 Yoko miscarries again
28 Sep 70 łBeaucoups of Blues˛ released
Nov 70 Lennons to NYC, Regency Hotel
27 Nov 70 łAll Things Must Pass˛ released
31 Dec 70 Paul sues
12 Mar 71 Apple put in receivership, John throws bricks into Pauląs house
17 May 71 łRam˛ released
3 Jun 71 Lennonąs first real encounter with NYC street
13 Aug 71 Lennons move to Regis Hotel NYC
Aug 71 May Pang hired and moves next door
3 Sep 71 Stella McCartney born
9 Sep 71 łImagine˛ released
9 Oct 71 Yokoąs disasterous one-woman show in Syracuse NY
7 Dec 71 łWings Wild Life˛ released
20 Dec 71 łConcert for Bangladesh˛ released
12 Jun 72 łSometime in New York City˛ released
4 Jul 72 Lennons in San Mateo, try acupuncture for heroin
30 Aug 72 Madison Square garden lennon appearance
2 Nov 72 łMind Games˛ released
30 Apr 73 łRed Rose Speedway˛ released
30 May 73 łLiving in the Material World˛ released
Jun 73 Lennons move to the Dakota
Oct 73 John with May Pang in LA, start Spector orgy
2 Nov 73 łRingo˛ released
5 Dec 73 łBand on the Run˛ released
Feb 74 Ringo joins John in LA
8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
14 May 74 Yoko hires John Green as tarot reader, Takashi Yoshikawa as
łdirectional man˛
Jun 74 John and May settle in penthouse on 52nd Street
26 Sep 74 łWalls and Bridges˛ released
1 Nov 74 John finishes work on the Rock and Roll album
11 Nov 74 łGoodnight Vienna˛ released
Nov 74 John joins Elton John and Madison Square Garden
9 Dec 74 łDark Horse˛ released
31 Dec 74 Beatles and Company officially dissolved
7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal sex of the period)
17 Feb 75 łRock and Roll˛ released (Johnąs)
27 May 75 łVenus and Mars˛ released
22 Sep 75 łExtra Texture˛ released
9 Oct 75 Sean Taro Ono Lennon born (forced on Johnąs birthday to inherit soul?)
24 Oct 75 łShaved Fish˛ released
20 Nov 75 łBlast from your Past˛ released
4 Jan 76 Mal Evans killed
18 Mar 76 Jim McCartney Dies
25 Mar 76 łWings at the Speed of Sound˛ released
27 Sep 76 łRingoąs Rotogravure˛ released
Oct 76 Johnąs house husband phase begins
8 Nov 76 łBest of George Harrison˛ released
24 Nov 76 ł33 1/3˛ released
10 Dec 76 łWings over America˛ released
Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice Black Magic (to bind John)
17 May 77 łThrillington˛ released
26 Sep 77 łRingo the 4th˛ released
31 Mar 78 łLondon Town˛ released
17 Apr 78 łBad Boy˛ released
27 Nov 78 łWings Greatest˛ released
Jan 79 John obsessed by Shroud of Turin
20 Feb 79 łGeorge Harrison˛ released
11 Jun 79 łBack to the Egg˛ released with Shroud of Turin photo
Jan 80 Yoko conspires to have Paul arrested in Japan for ten days
Feb 80?? Advised by psychic Marlene Weiner (based on Edgar Cayce) Yoko
buys survival houses
26 May 80 łMcCartney II˛ released
22 Jul 80 Yoko: łIąve got to free myself of the Lennon name˛
Sep 80 Yoko hires new tarotreader, łdesiah Kane˛
15 Nov 80 łDouble Fantasy˛ released
7 Dec 80 John predicts his own death
8 Dec 80 John killed
1 Jun 81 łSomewhere in England˛ released
16 Jun 81 Yoko marries Sam Havadtoy in Hungary
26 Oct 81 łStop and Smell the Roses˛ released
26 Apr 82 łTug of War˛ released
8 Nov 82 łGone Troppo˛ released
26 Jun 83 łOld Wave˛ released
31 Oct 83 łPipes of Peace˛ released
25 Dec 83 Linda buys Magritteąs kit for Pauląs Xmas
22 Oct 84 łGive My Regards to Broad Street˛ album released
22 Aug 86 łPress to Play˛ released
2 Nov 87 łCloud Nine˛ released
5 Dec 87 łAll the Best˛ released
25 Oct 88 łTraveling Wilburys Vol 1˛ released
1 Mar 89 łStarr Struck˛ released
6 Jun 89 łFlowers in the Dirt˛ released
9 Oct 89 łBest of Dark Horse˛ released
16 Oct 90 łAll-Starr Band˛ released
29 Oct 90 łTraveling Wilburys Vol 3˛ released
5 Nov 90 łTripping the Live Fantastic˛ released
4 Jun 91 łUnplugged˛ released
22 Oct 91 łLiverpool Oratorio˛ released
29 Oct 91 łChopba B CCCP˛ released
22 May 92 łTime Takes Time˛ released
10 Jul 92 łGeorge Harrison Live in Japan˛ released
9 Feb 93 łOff the Ground˛ released
1 Oct 93 łLive from Montreux˛ released
16 Nov 93 łPaul is Live˛ released
22 Feb 94 łStrawberiesOceansShipsForest˛ released
18 Mar 97 Paul knighted
27 May 97 łFlaming Pie˛ released
12 Aug 97 łThird All-Starr Band˛ released
23 Sep 97 łStanding Stone˛ released
18 Apr 98 Linda Dies
16 Jun 98 łVertical Man˛ released
Laura
he was asked to join a few days later. He had to go to scout camp (for a
couple of weeks I think) so didn't start playing with them until a while
later. I believe his first performance with them wasn't until October.
Don't suppose they were in huge demand ;-)
>21 Nov 61 Deported from Germany, Stu stays
Your timeline has deportations happening on their second trip, but it
was their first trip (George, then Paul and Pete)
>Mar 65 First LSD for John and George
>from dentist, George1s house as submarine
Huh? I did hear about an elevator that seemed to be on fire.
>Oct 66 Paul gives Yoko crayon words
>to 3the Word2 for John Cage1s birthday
I think he turned her down, but that John gave her a lyric sheet.
>14 Mar 68 ?? Magic Alex forces John1s return
>26 March 68 Paul and Jane return quite pleased
Paul and Jane spent about a month in Rishikesh. John and George were
there for quite a while after P & J left.
>Mar 68 ?? John and Paul on Tonight Show
>15 May 68 Apple Corps announced in NY, Paul remeets Linda
The Tonight Show appearance happened on the NY trip to announce Apple.
>Jul 68 Jane breaks off with Paul,
>accidentally discards his Liverpool notebook
I've never seen these events tied together. I think the discarding
happened earlier as I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the first Hunter
Davies book (well before the break-up).
>31 Oct 68 Paul and Linda settle in Hyde Park
Is that the same as St. John's Wood (in London)? The Scottish farm has
"High" in the name I think, but not "Hyde".
>Apr 69 Linda takes 3statue2 photos
I'm curious about what photos you mean.
>27 Dec 69 John and Yoko do extraterrestrial
>in Denmark for three weeks
Huh?
>Feb 70 John1s breakdown
Huh?
>10 Apr 70 Paul publicly leaves Beatles
Not exactly. Have you read the press release?
>12 Mar 71 Apple put in receivership,
>John throws bricks into Paul1s house
Isn't this an unsubstantiated rumor?
>Oct 73 John with May Pang in LA,
>start Spector orgy
Uh, orgy? A wild time was apparently had by all, but I thought things
were more realted to drugs and pistol-wielding in the Spector arena.
>8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
Who?
>7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal
>sex of the period)
Excuse me?
>Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice
>Black Magic (to bind John)
Really? (please read with skeptical tone)
>11 Jun 79 3Back to the Egg2 released
>with Shroud of Turin photo
Gosh, I missed that one, and I had the cassette too. Maybe I don't
recognize a religious artifact when I see one.
>Jan 80 Yoko conspires to have Paul
>arrested in Japan for ten days
If you want anyone to take your book seriously, you should substantiate
entries like this, leave them out, or refer to them as speculation.
>16 Jun 81 Yoko marries Sam Havadtoy
>in Hungary
Ditto.
>18 Apr 98 Linda Dies
It was April 17.
ron annett
>25 Feb 43 George Harrison born
George was born on 24th February... he just recently found his birth
certificate and said he'd been mistaken bbefore when he said the 25th.
Meaghan
Tom
>>8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
>Who?
>
A great talent, who has no Beatles connection other than having played with
people who played with the Beatles at times.
>>7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal
>>sex of the period)
>Excuse me?
>
>>Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice
>>Black Magic (to bind John)
>Really? (please read with skeptical tone)
>
Maybe "binding John" refers to non-vaginal sex of the period.
Ted Goranson
Thanks so much for your time and useful comments. I'll only respond where
you indicate rather than requoting the whole message.
>>21 Nov 61 Deported from Germany, Stu stays
>Your timeline has deportations happening on their second trip, but it
>was their first trip (George, then Paul and Pete)
I frankly get confused on all the Hamburg trips. The things I am
interested in is when they met the exis, when Stu moved in with Astrid,
and when he met Paolozzi (I won't look up the spelling) and got accepted
to scholl there.
>>Oct 66 Paul gives Yoko crayon words
>>to 3the Word2 for John Cage1s birthday
>I think he turned her down, but that John gave her a lyric sheet.
Paul's book says that he gave her the lyric sheet which was reproduced in
Cage's birthday publication. It's somewhat of interest because it seems
from Paul's description to have happened before John and Yoko met, while
John was off making "How I Won the War."
>>14 Mar 68 ?? Magic Alex forces John1s return
>>26 March 68 Paul and Jane return quite pleased
>Paul and Jane spent about a month in Rishikesh. John and George were
>there for quite a while after P & J left.
My book is not interested in general Beatlalia, but the Rishikesh trip
_is_ quite important to me. And everyone gives different dates. Do you
know the actual return dates?
>>Jul 68 Jane breaks off with Paul,
>>accidentally discards his Liverpool notebook
>I've never seen these events tied together. I think the discarding
>happened earlier as I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the first Hunter
>Davies book (well before the break-up).
Right. Thanks.
>>Apr 69 Linda takes 3statue2 photos
>I'm curious about what photos you mean.
One of the very last photo sessions was this one, taken by Linda. It is in
Paul's garden and one photo appears on the cover of "The Ballad of John
and Yoko." It is of the four plus Yoko sitting on the Alice in Wonderland
statues of Paul's garden. I am most interested in information about these
statues.
>>27 Dec 69 John and Yoko do extraterrestrial
>>in Denmark for three weeks
>Huh?
From Goldman's book. This is an area that sounds quite believeable and
apparently corraborated by a few. J&Y went to visit Kyoko in a rural area,
found Tony and wife deep into ET communication, and joined in.
>>Feb 70 John1s breakdown
>Huh?
Same source. Of interest to me because I focus exclusively on the White
Album. This helps explain why John didn't follow through on some of the
plans he had for and after that album.
>>10 Apr 70 Paul publicly leaves Beatles
>Not exactly. Have you read the press release?
Help me out. Don't know where I got the date, but think I meant the press
release associated with McCartney. Actually, perhaps I meant when he
_privately_ left the Beatles (the Ringo encounter and all that). Help.
>>12 Mar 71 Apple put in receivership,
>>John throws bricks into Paul1s house
>Isn't this an unsubstantiated rumor?
I'll put in a comment here on some of the entries. My book is very narrow
and thorough on only one aspect: the influence of Alice in Wonderland on
the White Album. This is a pretty deep topic though. Naturally, the most
important history is just prior to that period. Of minor interest is how
this failed experiment was continued in their solo careers. It's of
passing importance to me to explain that John had rancor for Paul, was
deep into some kind of drugs, and was extremely susceptable to the occult
from Nov 69 for a time. So it is important whether 50 or so of the
purported 100 events of this type took place, but not worth any energy to
argue that any one did.
The ET adventure in Denmark is rather more interesting, but that one is
generally supported. For my own use (which the timeline is for) I'll
asterisk those entries that are either not generally accepted or are
otherwise argued against by the Lennon deifiers. I thought, however that
this brick-throwing time _was_ substantiated by Ringo who was there. But
it doesn't matter. Gets an asterisk.
>>Oct 73 John with May Pang in LA,
>>start Spector orgy
>Uh, orgy? A wild time was apparently had by all, but I thought things
>were more realted to drugs and pistol-wielding in the Spector arena.
Just a shorthand of mine. It was the Spector period, and an exceptionally
unconstrained period. That's all.
>>8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
>Who?
Founder of the Graham Bond Organization, the most influential London blues
band. From GBO came John Mayall, Eric Clapton, and a very large host of
others. Graham was a regular in Paul's nightclub scene between moving into
the Asher's house and the end of WA recording. Important to me because he
headed the revival of occultism (which I myself, for the record, consider
rubbish) within the music scene and which, I show, influenced the WA.
Black Magic and drugs haunted him as I suppose it did John, except Graham
died by his own hand, and John always had a woman (or Paul) to pull him
back.
>>7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal
>>sex of the period)
>Excuse me?
Heck, gets an asterisk. The precise date differs in J's account from Y's.
I went with her's because she wasn't so drug addled and she would have
been concerned astrologically. They both told Marnie and Fred that the
conception had to be on the day they thought because it was the only
physical possibility.
>>Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice
>>Black Magic (to bind John)
>Really? (please read with skeptical tone)
Another asterisk. From the Goldman book. Of interest because of the many,
many things along these lines. Interestingly, Goldman plays down similar
events from John compared to others.
>>11 Jun 79 3Back to the Egg2 released
>>with Shroud of Turin photo
>Gosh, I missed that one, and I had the cassette too. Maybe I don't
>recognize a religious artifact when I see one.
Guess I was able to actually add value to your day. It's in the CD as
well. It's the shot of the interior dome of the Chapel of the Shroud in
Turin (with a golden bird at the apex). Apart from the Shroud, the
building, by Guarino Guarini, is considered rather important, a turning
point in occult architecture. Notable that John would have an interest and
have that photo on the next of Paul's albums. The egg is the model for the
geometry of the dome, and this is the album of Paul's which comes the
closest to the Walrus/eggman agenda of the WA, The photo is by Linda. I
would be very interested in knowing when they were there. And also what is
the other photo, which looks like the bottom of a drained swimming pool?
>>Jan 80 Yoko conspires to have Paul
>>arrested in Japan for ten days
>If you want anyone to take your book seriously, you should substantiate
>entries like this, leave them out, or refer to them as speculation.
Asterisk. This one I find hard to believe. It would be there just because
of the arrest independent of cause, because of the effect it had on Paul.
>>16 Jun 81 Yoko marries Sam Havadtoy
>>in Hungary
>Ditto.
Asterisk. Of no interest to me.
Thanks again. Hope your excellent knowledge can help with the missing
points I note.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
> >25 Feb 43 George Harrison born
>
>
> George was born on 24th February... he just recently found his birth
> certificate and said he'd been mistaken bbefore when he said the 25th.
>
> Meaghan
Thanks.
Best, Ted
Tom
>>>8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
>>Who?
>
>Founder of the Graham Bond Organization, the most influential London blues
>band. From GBO came John Mayall, Eric Clapton, and a very large host of
>others.
Not exactly. The other members of the Graham Bond organization were John
McLaughlin, replaced by Dick Heckstall-Smith who later joined Mayall, Jack
Bruce, and Ginger Baker. Neither Clapton nor Mayall were members.
Bond later played with Denny Laine in Ginger Baker's Air Force.
Jeff
"Soul takes on a body with each birth we
make our date"
George Harrison
na
Tom wrote in message <7aq6ec$il6$1...@news.orbitworld.net>...
>
>
>>>8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
>>
>A great talent,
yep yep yep
>
>>>7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal
>>>sex of the period)
>>Excuse me?
>>
>>>Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice
>>>Black Magic (to bind John)
>>Really? (please read with skeptical tone)
>>
>Maybe "binding John" refers to non-vaginal sex of the period.
LOL
CynLennin
something. Likely, she asked that John be bound to her.
Cyn
"Don't knock it- It's sex with someone you love"
-W. Allen
Ted Goranson
> >>>8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
> >>Who?
> >
> >Founder of the Graham Bond Organization, the most influential London blues
> >band. From GBO came John Mayall, Eric Clapton, and a very large host of
> >others.
>
> Not exactly. The other members of the Graham Bond organization were John
> McLaughlin, replaced by Dick Heckstall-Smith who later joined Mayall, Jack
> Bruce, and Ginger Baker. Neither Clapton nor Mayall were members.
>
> Bond later played with Denny Laine in Ginger Baker's Air Force.
Sorry. My response should have been something like: GBO was a major
influence on many London-based musicians musically, including those who
weren't on the few GBO recordings. One of these was Eric C of the
Yardbirds who sat in on some of the many open jams. Out of these jams
eveolved Cream with Clapton and two GBO members, Bruce and Baker.
The family tree of who recorded with whom is a fun game of degrees of
freedom for trivia buffs I suppose. The real interest is who _influenced_
whom. In this regard, there is a subtext of who influenced whom
philosophically (in the perspective of music). Bond was the originator of
what can be called a "black magic" side. From him can be clearly traced
Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin (Jimmy Page particularly) and all of the
firsts of (occult-inspired) heavy metal.
Another thread is the famous difference of John McClaughlin who was in the
line of "white magic," meditation and such which led directly to George's
interest in different eastern philosophies, (What do you think Savoy
Truffle is about?)
The big schism in he Beatles during the WA was just this, with John (and
Paul) interested in the Bond side, Gearge and Eric interested in the
McLaughlin side, and Ringo just doofing around.
Bond is really important to the Dunbar/Mardas circle and was a big influence.
Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it. This newsgroup has so much
of "who's your favorite fab," or "I have a Ringo lunchbox for sale" that
I'm glad to find some interested folks.
Best, Ted
Ken Smith
Ted Goranson wrote:
> (What do you think Savoy Truffle is about?)
A box of "Good News" chocolates. At least that's what George has said it
was about, also any number of other Beatles historians and authors. What on
earth did *you* think it was about?
Ken
Ted Goranson
It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
There are some that think "Tommorow Never Knows" is about a boat. Others,
who read it somewhere, know that the song is "about" Leary's
transliteration of the Book of the Dead. For them then, that's what the
song is about. But why? what is John trying to say? That's what I mean.
The song is about what John really wants to get across, and I leave it for
you to fill that in.
The Beatles would, like any artist, sort out images that express what they
mean to say from those that don't. So we have a song about a box of
chocolates and not a box of kleenex. Is it just accident, just random? I
suppose most people think so. I don't. My research (which will become a
book if I can work something out with the lawyers) says that there was a
deliberate structure in the White Album.
John and Paul are talking about drugs and magic (Obladi, honey pies and
such) and George is saying that both may produce short term apparent
results but will soon produce nothing but pain. Krishnamurthi, one of
George's early gurus, in fact has a passage about just this, using candy
as the metaphor. It is, indeed, a rather well used idiom in Hindu
literature where diet and theology are intertwined in any case. Maharishi
believed his greatest triumph would be to convince the Beatles that drugs
were a poor shortterm substitute for "natural" ways. In the planned but
squashed promo video, he had intended for the Beatles to symbolically
throw away chocolates. He didn't need to succeed with George, may have
with Paul (excluding pot) and failed with Ringo, miserably with John: he
went back to the Dunbar/Mardas school.
That's what Savoy Truffle is about. George is very easy to read, and has
been consistent since then. (But then, many of his later songs were
written during the WA period anyway.) I'll leave it to you to discover
what is on the floor that needs sweeping. Hint: Alice in Bill's Bungalow.
I had not intended to get into this. I was rather rudely treated on the
list about three years ago when I started in earnest. Some people just
have a vision of the Beatles that is too important to their own vision of
the world to be allowed to be changed. So, if you do not mind, I'd rather
just stick to talking about facts, and let people draw their own
conclusions. The simplest set of facts I could compose were dates.
If you could add or correct the Rishikesh and Hamburg dates, that would be
appreciated.
Best, Ted
Laura
>>to 3the Word2 for John Cage1s birthday
>I think he turned her down, but that
>John gave her a lyric sheet.
<<Paul's book says that he gave her the
lyric sheet which was reproduced in
Cage's birthday publication.>>
If you mean Many Years From Now, you should reread it. It says she asked
him for a lyric sheet, but he told her he keeps all of his original
manuscipts and suggested she ask John, who gave her the lyric sheet for
"The Word".
>>Feb 70 John1s breakdown
>Huh?
<<Same source. Of interest to me because
I focus exclusively on the White
Album. This helps explain why John didn't
follow through on some of the
plans he had for and after that album.>>
Such as?
>>10 Apr 70 Paul publicly leaves Beatles
>Not exactly. Have you read the press release?
<<Help me out. Don't know where
I got the date, but think I meant the
press release associated with McCartney.
Actually, perhaps I meant when he
_privately_ left the Beatles (the
Ringo encounter and all that). Help.>>
I don't dispute the date or that it was Paul's press, just the content.
I believe the entire thing is printed in Philip Norman's "Shout!"
>>12 Mar 71 Apple put in receivership,
>>John throws bricks into Paul1s house
>Isn't this an unsubstantiated rumor?
SNIP
<<I thought, however that this brick-throwing
time _was_ substantiated by Ringo who was there.>>
I didn't know Ringo substantiated the story. Interesting. -laura
Jeff U
Ted Goranson <te...@infi.net> wrote in article
<tedg-20029...@pm4-1-s3-82.orf.infi.net>...
> Friends--
>
> For a book I am putting together, I am assembling a timeline of key
> events, this of interest to my presentation. Here is it for your use.
>
> I'd appreciate any additions and corrections you may suggest..
>
> Best, Ted
> 58 Jane Asher makes stage debut with łAlice in Wonderland˛
Jane Asher's stage debut is a "key event"?
> 12 Nov 60 Lord Buckley dies
Who is Lord Buckley?
> 10 Apr 62 Stu Sutcliffe dies of injuries from John
Wow, that's new information!! John killed Stu???
> Nov 63 Paul moves into Asher home
I see you have a Jane Asher fixation
> Mar 65 First LSD for John and George from dentist, Georgeąs house as
submarine
Huh?
> Mar 66 Paul moves into Cavendish, buys Martha, and Thisbe (from MSND) the
cat
Key events?
> Apr 66 Paul buys łGloria˛ (carp) and łThe Countess of Monte Cristo˛ from
> Magritte
More key events?
> Aug 66 Paul buys Magritteąs łLe Jeu de mourre˛
???
> 13 Oct 69 Yoko miscarries again (too many abortions)
Fact or rumor?
> 8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
Key Beatles event?
> 14 May 74 Yoko hires John Green as tarot reader, Takashi Yoshikawa as
> łdirectional man˛
???
> 7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal sex of the period)
Oh really?
> Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice Black Magic (to bind John)
hahahaha
> Jan 80 Yoko conspires to have Paul arrested in Japan for ten days
Is this book nothing but trash and dirt?
> Feb 80?? Advised by psychic Marlene Weiner (based on Edgar Cayce) Yoko
> buys survival houses
> 22 Jul 80 Yoko: łIąve got to free myself of the Lennon name˛
> Sep 80 Yoko hires new tarotreader, łdesiah Kane˛
> 7 Dec 80 John predicts his own death
> 8 Dec 80 John killed
yep
> 22 Oct 84 łGive My Regards to Broad Street˛ album released
> 22 Aug 86 łPress to Play˛ released
> 2 Nov 87 łCloud Nine˛ released
> 5 Dec 87 łAll the Best˛ released
Why bother with the record releases at all? Doesn't seem to fit in with
the trash.
Jeff
Jeff U
Ted Goranson <te...@infi.net> wrote in article
<tedg-22029...@pm4-1-s3-146.orf.infi.net>...
>
> I had not intended to get into this. I was rather rudely treated on the
> list about three years ago when I started in earnest.
I wonder why?
> Some people just
> have a vision of the Beatles that is too important to their own vision of
> the world to be allowed to be changed. So, if you do not mind, I'd rather
> just stick to talking about facts, and let people draw their own
> conclusions.
Facts? You're using Goldman as a source and you want to talk about
facts?????
Yikes!
Jeff
Ted Goranson
"Jeff U" <opusjeff(spamsucks)@fast.net> wrote:
> Ted Goranson <te...@infi.net> wrote in article
> <tedg-22029...@pm4-1-s3-146.orf.infi.net>...
> >
> > I had not intended to get into this. I was rather rudely treated on the
> > list about three years ago when I started in earnest.
>
> I wonder why?
1. Because I have a view that may differ from the synthetic vision and
some confuse that with my positing what I'll call the "Goldman" vision, of
violence, sexism and accidental fame. But that's a mistake in my case.
2. Because I believe that they were more serious artists than the fiction
holds and deserve the study they deserve. I focus on what they tried do do
with their lyrics. And because the closer one looks, the more the
understanding varies from the conventional. Remember that some of the
people that are here are because they need easy to understand heros. Did
you see the post on the Good News chocolates?
3. Because many of the subscribers, at least those who post, have a
juvenile sense of nettiquette. Things like posting a message with only the
intent to insult (though this is probably milder than what you can do). Or
people like the followup to this message who posts "chickle chuckle." It's
fine I suppose for recess time. I just think it is rude.
> > Some people just
> > have a vision of the Beatles that is too important to their own vision of
> > the world to be allowed to be changed. So, if you do not mind, I'd rather
> > just stick to talking about facts, and let people draw their own
> > conclusions.
>
> Facts? You're using Goldman as a source and you want to talk about
> facts?????
>
> Yikes!
>
> Jeff
Jeff--
I'll work with you. Yes, I'll use Goldman, or anyone else for facts. And I
recognize that no author seems to be correct. It turns out that my own
work depends on nothing from Goldman, except the vague impression that
John was lost after 1969. But everyone says that, right?
The core of my work is based on interviews, and is centered primarily on
the lyrics. Laura's kind comments reminded me that some of the "facts" in
the tileline are questionable, and I respond that yes, they are. So let's
put an asterisk next to them. In fact, I use none of them except as I
indicated in my response to her.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
> >>Oct 66 Paul gives Yoko crayon words
> >>to 3the Word2 for John Cage1s birthday
> >I think he turned her down, but that
> >John gave her a lyric sheet.
>
> <<Paul's book says that he gave her the
> lyric sheet which was reproduced in
> Cage's birthday publication.>>
>
> If you mean Many Years From Now, you should reread it. It says she asked
> him for a lyric sheet, but he told her he keeps all of his original
> manuscipts and suggested she ask John, who gave her the lyric sheet for
> "The Word".
You are right. Thanks for the correction, and taking the time.
> >>Feb 70 John1s breakdown
> >Huh?
>
> <<Same source. Of interest to me because
> I focus exclusively on the White
> Album. This helps explain why John didn't
> follow through on some of the
> plans he had for and after that album.>>
>
> Such as?
To change the world by creating a magical structure based on Tarot and
Alice in Wonderland. This what I present they tried with the WA. The steam
went out with John's increasingly erratic behaviour, leaving Paul to push
and push.
> >>10 Apr 70 Paul publicly leaves Beatles
> >Not exactly. Have you read the press release?
>
> <<Help me out. Don't know where
> I got the date, but think I meant the
> press release associated with McCartney.
> Actually, perhaps I meant when he
> _privately_ left the Beatles (the
> Ringo encounter and all that). Help.>>
>
> I don't dispute the date or that it was Paul's press, just the content.
> I believe the entire thing is printed in Philip Norman's "Shout!"
Actually, I have the original insert from when I bought it at the time.The
press release really hit us fans hard as the first remark by any of them
that the trip was over. But now you've got me wondering whethe the date is
correct.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
I already posted a message to you in another branch of this thread, There,
I mildly chastise you for apparently posting only nonuseful criticism. If
I am misinterpreting your tone, I apologize. Let me put some time into
working with you. Maybe you actually have nothing to offer, but perhaps
someone else may.
The timeline is a reference. Some events are key to my own development of
the story. Others are just markers, like the issue of albums and such,
just to provide a navigational outline. Let me deal with your remarks as
if they were serious.
...
> > 58 Jane Asher makes stage debut with łAlice in Wonderland˛
>
> Jane Asher's stage debut is a "key event"?
It is a key event to me. The tape of this production was played over and
over by John and Paul in the 5960 timeframe and was reused when John wrote
"I am the Walrus." Don't you think it's important that while a teenager,
John fantasized about Bardot and Paul about Asher? And that both Alice and
Jane end up playing roles in their lives?
>
> > 12 Nov 60 Lord Buckley dies
>
> Who is Lord Buckley?
Buckley is the fellow immortalized in "Crackerbox Palace." His extremely
popular routines were favorites of the Beatles. He contributes key
refrains to some important songs: "With a Little Help From My Friends"
"Hey Jude" and "Let it Be." This is quite interesting. While not the most
profound influence I concern myself with, it's pretty important. If you
like the Beatles, you'll like Buckley.
> > 10 Apr 62 Stu Sutcliffe dies of injuries from John
>
> Wow, that's new information!! John killed Stu???
I don't care. I just don't. The information is from Goldman, so it's not
new. So put an asterisk next to it, meaning "someone says"
> > Nov 63 Paul moves into Asher home
>
> I see you have a Jane Asher fixation
I'm interested in what influenced the songs. Paul says that moving into
the house (and the concurrent delving into the arts scene) was a turning
point in his life. "More important than drugs."
> > Mar 65 First LSD for John and George from dentist, Georgeąs house as
> submarine
>
> Huh?
This from a couple sources, with the origin clearly George. You don't like
it? Okay, I put an asterisk.
> > Mar 66 Paul moves into Cavendish, buys Martha, and Thisbe (from MSND) the
> cat
>
> Key events?
Paul's design for his garden is very important to my work. He spent a lot
of energy on it, and claimed that it was the outline for the WA. Or maybe
you think the cat's name is unimportant. The Beatles acted out the
play-within-aplay from Midsummer's night dream, which features Thisbe. I
know that Paul forced this and the others were annoyed. Still need the
date and other details of the TV show where this occured.
> > Apr 66 Paul buys łGloria˛ (carp) and łThe Countess of Monte Cristo˛ from
> > Magritte
>
> More key events?
>
> > Aug 66 Paul buys Magritteąs łLe Jeu de mourre˛
>
> ???
You must not know much about Paul. This painting is the source for the
Apple image and also (a predecessor painting) the name itself. Paolozzi
introduced Stu and the others to Magritte. Paul is the largest private
holder of Magritte paintings in the world, and in fact owns the artist's
kit. 71 of Paul's paintings will be displayed in Germany this spring.
> > 13 Oct 69 Yoko miscarries again (too many abortions)
>
> Fact or rumor?
Well, it what she and her doctors said. I don't care. You don't like it. I
put an asterisk. (I'm afraid I have but one asterisk for your
sensitivities on this.)
> > 8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
>
> Key Beatles event?
Well, it scared the shit out of John, and I believe affected everything
that followed. You do know how Bond mentored John? Particularly gruesome:
he threw himself under a tube (US = Subway) train
> > 14 May 74 Yoko hires John Green as tarot reader, Takashi Yoshikawa as
> > łdirectional man˛
>
> ???
>
> > 7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal sex of the period)
>
> Oh really?
>
>
> > Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice Black Magic (to bind John)
>
> hahahaha
>
> > Jan 80 Yoko conspires to have Paul arrested in Japan for ten days
>
> Is this book nothing but trash and dirt?
Put asterisks here if you wish. None of it appears in my book, except the
mention of the Columbia trip because it shows their deep involvement in
the occult.
> > Feb 80?? Advised by psychic Marlene Weiner (based on Edgar Cayce) Yoko
> > buys survival houses
There's an article in the Virginian Pilot where Yoko says this, and I've
interviewed the Edgar Cayce folks on this. It's not a question. And I
don't see why you wonder about it at all.
> > 22 Jul 80 Yoko: łIąve got to free myself of the Lennon name˛
> > Sep 80 Yoko hires new tarotreader, łdesiah Kane˛
> > 7 Dec 80 John predicts his own death
> > 8 Dec 80 John killed
>
> yep
Put asterisks on all this if you wish. But they are all clearly are on the
record.
> > 22 Oct 84 łGive My Regards to Broad Street˛ album released
> > 22 Aug 86 łPress to Play˛ released
> > 2 Nov 87 łCloud Nine˛ released
> > 5 Dec 87 łAll the Best˛ released
>
> Why bother with the record releases at all? Doesn't seem to fit in with
> the trash.
>
> Jeff
Okay, Jeff. I've put some effort in. The book is about the White Album and
how the lyrics got to where they are. And incidentally why the solo
careers took the directions they did as a result of the perceived failure
of the WA.
Can you help me with some facts? Just ingore the stuff you don't like.
Nearly all is immaterial to me.
I'm surpised that you didn't pick on the Alfred Jarry event which was a
big deal to Paul.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
Nope. Not in any way. This work is a spinoff of the study of cognitive
modeling done by Thomas Harriot in 1585 which as a matter of unintended
course, led to all the occult studff we're talking about. But with
Harriot, its the history of logic. (He supplied the logical algenra to
Descartes.) It was for a DARPA project to build a synthetic "VR"
environment, and is the basis of a large project now. Its conitive logic I
believe in. The Beatles just give us an accessible gateway into this
virtual world.
> failure of the white album?
> perceived by whom please ted.?
The Beatles of course.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
"Jeff U" <opusjeff(spamsucks)@fast.net> wrote:
> With who? Interviews that YOU have done or interviews by others in the
> "kiss-n-tell" trash books?
Interviews conducted by myself and a helper with people involved. But
those kiss and tell books aren't to be completely discarded, as I said
with even Goldman.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
> or do you have some special pipeline into the fabs heads and know stuff no
> one else on earth knows?
Wouldn't be worth doing if I didn't. Seriously, if you can get past your
chickles, some of this is "new" information. And it casts new light on a
lot of stuff that's already known but overlooked. As for interpretation,
all I'm doing is reporting what they intended to say. Savoy Truffle uses
chocolates, but that's not what the song is about. If you cannot allow
this, even if I can show you the Hindu text, well you won't be one of my
target readers.
Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion? I'm interested in
when John was first exposed to absinthe.
Best, Ted
Jeff U
>>
>> Jane Asher's stage debut is a "key event"?
>
>It is a key event to me. The tape of this production was played over and
>over by John and Paul in the 5960 timeframe
How did they do this? Did the struggling pair somehow have access to the
BBC's film archives? In London? which they had never been to at that
point. How could they play it over and over? on what?
and was reused when John wrote
>"I am the Walrus."
What evidence do you have that Jane Asher's stage acting debut had anything
to do with the creation of John's I Am The Walrus? I've no doubt John was
influenced by Carrol's tale, but from reading it, not Asher's portrayal of
it 8 years earlier.
Don't you think it's important that while a teenager,
>John fantasized about Bardot and Paul about Asher?
Yeah, but more along the lines of sexual intentions not future psychedelic
rock and roll records or lyrics!
And that both Alice and
>Jane end up playing roles in their lives?
What other Alice In Wonderland influence can you show me other than the '67
Lennon psychedelic tracks?
>> > 10 Apr 62 Stu Sutcliffe dies of injuries from John
>>
>> Wow, that's new information!! John killed Stu???
>
>I don't care. I just don't. The information is from Goldman, so it's not
>new. So put an asterisk next to it, meaning "someone says"
An asterisk? Just repeating this Goldman bullshit is enough to make your
entire project laughable! Drop it now before too many others notice it and
ridicule you furthur.
>> > Mar 66 Paul moves into Cavendish, buys Martha, and Thisbe (from MSND)
the
>> cat
>>
>> Key events?
>
>Paul's design for his garden is very important to my work. He spent a lot
>of energy on it, and claimed that it was the outline for the WA.
What do you mean by "the outline for the White Album"? With John's tracks
and George's output increased for this album, Paul wasn't left with much
room for an "outline". Or is this the theory you alluded to about the White
Album being their Alice In Wonderland?
Or maybe
>you think the cat's name is unimportant. The Beatles acted out the
>play-within-aplay from Midsummer's night dream, which features Thisbe. I
>know that Paul forced this and the others were annoyed. Still need the
>date and other details of the TV show where this occured.
Are you talking about the BBC's Around The Beatles special? It was taped at
Wembley studios on April 28, 1964 and broadcast May 6. The first US
broadcast was in November. John played Thisbe, Paul Pyramus, George
Moonshine and Ringo Lion. I highly doubt the Beatles themselves had
anything to do with the writing and creation of the show, they were so busy
with all of their other activities. Assuming this slap-stick comedy routine
had any important musical influence on either John or Paul is stretching
things a bit. Yes, it is slap-stick...you've seen it I presume?
>> > Apr 66 Paul buys łGloria˛ (carp) and łThe Countess of Monte Cristo˛
from
>> > Magritte
>>
>> More key events?
>>
>> > Aug 66 Paul buys Magritteąs łLe Jeu de mourre˛
>>
>> ???
>
>You must not know much about Paul. This painting is the source for the
>Apple image and also (a predecessor painting) the name itself. Paolozzi
>introduced Stu and the others to Magritte. Paul is the largest private
>holder of Magritte paintings in the world, and in fact owns the artist's
>kit. 71 of Paul's paintings will be displayed in Germany this spring.
And this influence is shown where in Paul's songs?
>
>> > 13 Oct 69 Yoko miscarries again (too many abortions)
>>
>> Fact or rumor?
>
>Well, it what she and her doctors said. I don't care. You don't like it. I
>put an asterisk. (I'm afraid I have but one asterisk for your
>sensitivities on this.)
These events are reflected in which Lennon lyrics? If it is true her
miscarriages are due to prior abortions so be it, do you feel you need say
why? Do you REALLY need bring that up?
>> > 14 May 74 Yoko hires John Green as tarot reader, Takashi Yoshikawa as
>> > łdirectional man˛
>>
This only tell me how screwed up Yoko really is. What does this have to do
with anything else?
>> > 7 Feb 75 Sean concieved (in only vaginal sex of the period)
>>
Is this credited to a quote by either John or Yoko directly? If not, why
repeat it?
>> > Mar 77 Yoko in Columbia to practice Black Magic (to bind John)
>>
>> hahahaha
>>
>> > Jan 80 Yoko conspires to have Paul arrested in Japan for ten days
>>
>> Is this book nothing but trash and dirt?
>
>Put asterisks here if you wish. None of it appears in my book, except the
>mention of the Columbia trip because it shows their deep involvement in
>the occult.
lies, rumors, hearsay, myths, innuendo, half-truths.....i.e. TRASH What
does this have to do with John's musical output?
>
>> > Feb 80?? Advised by psychic Marlene Weiner (based on Edgar Cayce) Yoko
>> > buys survival houses
>
>There's an article in the Virginian Pilot where Yoko says this, and I've
>interviewed the Edgar Cayce folks on this. It's not a question. And I
>don't see why you wonder about it at all.
I only wonder why this information is at all important or "key" to a
timeline.
>
>> > 22 Jul 80 Yoko: łIąve got to free myself of the Lennon name˛
>> > Sep 80 Yoko hires new tarotreader, łdesiah Kane˛
>> > 7 Dec 80 John predicts his own death
>> > 8 Dec 80 John killed
>>
>
>Put asterisks on all this if you wish. But they are all clearly are on the
>record.
So? Are you going to give us your conspiracy theory now?
>
>> > 22 Oct 84 łGive My Regards to Broad Street˛ album released
>> > 22 Aug 86 łPress to Play˛ released
>> > 2 Nov 87 łCloud Nine˛ released
>> > 5 Dec 87 łAll the Best˛ released
>>
>> Why bother with the record releases at all? Doesn't seem to fit in with
>> the trash.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>Okay, Jeff. I've put some effort in. The book is about the White Album and
>how the lyrics got to where they are. And incidentally why the solo
>careers took the directions they did as a result of the perceived failure
>of the WA.
>
I believe, as do most logical thinking fans, that the directions each of
them were heading individually was already in full flower before the White
Album was started.
Jeff U.
Jeff U
Ted Goranson wrote in message ...
>--A few people say: why are you using Goldman, you fool?
>
>--I say, I made a mistake: some "facts" are controversial, so let's list
>those differently (with an asterisk if you choose to keep them) and in any
>case none of them are even important for my work.
Most were not facts at all!!!
>But others go on with wicko and chickle stuff.
>
>Independently, I give an example of "Savoy Truffle." I picked this one
>specifically because it's generally thought to be completely "explained"
>if I can use the word. And I give the extension which doesn't contradict
>the conventional explanation, but expands it. Either it is right or wrong.
>If it is wrong, I'd surely like to know. I have no particular mission in
>being wrong.
Or it's a figment of your obviously unique imagination?
>
>But it takes a wee bit more to have a credible contribution than just
>namecalling. (I guess I wouldn't mind the names if there was some content
>or insight accompanying them.)
...or credible sources from which to base your theories?
>
>Why do people not want to know new things about the songs from those who
>were there?
That wouldn't be you now would it?
>I use the internet daily for my AI collaboration (of which this Beatles
>effort is a small part). In fact, I am one of the original ARPAnetters
>from 30 years back. It is not my experience to find people so eager to
>misinterpret and transmute things into personal attacks. Is it just the
>nature of this group?
Misinterpret? Transmute? Now that's interesting. Words that you should
take to heart.
>
>At any rate. Sorry if your feathers were ruffled. Now, can we get back to
>what the lyrics are all about? My biggest missing pieces are: when was
>John introduced to absinthe? Was it as early as Hamburg and connected to
>Voorman? When was Paul's garden designed? And a few smaller items.
>
I'll bet Scotch and Coke played a much more important role in Lennon's life
than absinthe. Why the interest?
Jeff
Jeff U
Ted Goranson wrote in message ...
>
no
>> one else on earth knows?
>
>Wouldn't be worth doing if I didn't. Seriously, if you can get past your
>chickles, some of this is "new" information. And it casts new light on a
>lot of stuff that's already known but overlooked. As for interpretation,
>all I'm doing is reporting what they intended to say. Savoy Truffle uses
>chocolates, but that's not what the song is about. If you cannot allow
>this, even if I can show you the Hindu text, well you won't be one of my
>target readers.
>
Wow...
"new" information = your opinions and interpertations
reporting what they intended to say = rather presumptious aren't you?
Savoy Truffle has a deep hidden mystical meaning? Tell us please! And let
George in on it too while you're at it.
Jeff U.
na
Jeff U wrote in message
<01be5ea3$b25a5fe0$545e...@pai820uleau.micro.lucent.com>...
>
>
>Ted Goranson <te...@infi.net> wrote in article
><tedg-22029...@pm4-1-s3-146.orf.infi.net>...
>>
>> I had not intended to get into this. I was rather rudely treated on the
>> list about three years ago when I started in earnest.
>
>I wonder why?
>
>
>> have a vision of the Beatles that is too important to their own vision of
>> the world to be allowed to be changed. So, if you do not mind, I'd rather
>> just stick to talking about facts, and let people draw their own
>> conclusions.
>
>Facts? You're using Goldman as a source and you want to talk about
>facts?????
>
>Yikes!
>
>Jeff
chuckle chuckle
>
na
Ted Goranson wrote in message ...
>
>some confuse that with my positing what I'll call the "Goldman" vision, of
>violence, sexism and accidental fame. But that's a mistake in my case.
>
>2. Because I believe that they were more serious artists than the fiction
>holds and deserve the study they deserve.
like no one else has ever done an indepth study of the fabs? please.
our own alan, ian and all those guys do a stand up job of seriously in-depth
analysis.
do yourself a favour and check it out sometime.
>I focus on what they tried do do
>with their lyrics. And because the closer one looks, the more the
>understanding varies from the conventional. Remember that some of the
>people that are here are because they need easy to understand heros. Did
>you see the post on the Good News chocolates?
yes.
nice opinion piece.
what about it?
>3. Because many of the subscribers, at least those who post, have a
>juvenile sense of nettiquette. Things like posting a message with only the
>intent to insult (though this is probably milder than what you can do). Or
>people like the followup to this message who posts "chickle chuckle." It's
>fine I suppose for recess time. I just think it is rude.
fyi, it was chuckle chuckle ted.
whats so rude about that?
>The core of my work is based on interviews, and is centered primarily on
>the lyrics.
which are open for interpretation right ted?
which means they could easily be about a box of chocolates right ted?
or do you have some special pipeline into the fabs heads and know stuff no
one else on earth knows?\
n
na
Ted Goranson wrote in message ...
>
>Buckley is the fellow immortalized in "Crackerbox Palace." His extremely
>popular routines were favorites of the Beatles. He contributes key
>refrains to some important songs: "With a Little Help From My Friends"
>"Hey Jude" and "Let it Be." This is quite interesting. While not the most
>profound influence I concern myself with, it's pretty important. If you
>like the Beatles, you'll like Buckley.
refrains? please explain
.
>> > Mar 66 Paul moves into Cavendish, buys Martha, and Thisbe (from MSND)
the
>> cat
>>
>> Key events?
>
>Paul's design for his garden is very important to my work. He spent a lot
>of energy on it, and claimed that it was the outline for the WA.
his garden was the blue print for the white album?
>Or maybe
>you think the cat's name is unimportant. The Beatles acted out the
>play-within-aplay from Midsummer's night dream, which features Thisbe. I
>know that Paul forced this and the others were annoyed. Still need the
>date and other details of the TV show where this occured.
say what?
please ted, lets try to be semi-inteligible here.
>
>
>> > 8 May 74 Graham Bond kills self
>>
>> Key Beatles event?
>
>Well, it scared the shit out of John, and I believe affected everything
>that followed. You do know how Bond mentored John? Particularly gruesome:
>he threw himself under a tube (US = Subway) train
so john was the "mentee"?
tell me ted, are you a believer in the occult etc?
>Put asterisks on all this if you wish. But they are all clearly are on the
>record.
>
>> > 22 Oct 84 łGive My Regards to Broad Street˛ album released
>> > 22 Aug 86 łPress to Play˛ released
>> > 2 Nov 87 łCloud Nine˛ released
>> > 5 Dec 87 łAll the Best˛ released
>>
>> Why bother with the record releases at all? Doesn't seem to fit in with
>> the trash.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>Okay, Jeff. I've put some effort in. The book is about the White Album and
>how the lyrics got to where they are. And incidentally why the solo
>careers took the directions they did as a result of the perceived failure
>of the WA.
failure of the white album?
perceived by whom please ted.?
n
Jeff U
Ted Goranson <te...@infi.net> wrote in article
<tedg-22029...@pm4-1-s2-16.orf.infi.net>...
> Did you see the post on the Good News chocolates?
>
Yeah, it IS about a box of chocolates! As George has repeatedly said
himself.
> I'll work with you. Yes, I'll use Goldman, or anyone else for facts. And
I
> recognize that no author seems to be correct. It turns out that my own
> work depends on nothing from Goldman, except the vague impression that
> John was lost after 1969. But everyone says that, right?
Again, if you use Goldman for facts you're just asking for trouble... and
ridicule.
>
> The core of my work is based on interviews, and is centered primarily on
> the lyrics.
With who? Interviews that YOU have done or interviews by others in the
"kiss-n-tell" trash books?
Jeff U.
Ted Goranson
<bea...@tdo.infi.net> wrote:
> Ted Goranson wrote:
> > Remember that some of the people that are here are because they need
easy to understand heros. Did
> > you see the post on the Good News chocolates?
>
> Dear Whacko:
>
> You have not the faintest clue who my heroes are, or if I even have any. I
> will thank you to keep your speculations to matters that pertain to your
> unique imagination. And I will thank you for refraining from painting me,
> or anyone, who thinks you may possibly be out to lunch in another
> dimension, as a simpleton. Get well soon.
>
> Ken
Was I talking about you? No offense intended.
If I understand the chain of events:
--I post a timeline to the list and ask for additions and corrections
--A few people say: why are you using Goldman, you fool?
--I say, I made a mistake: some "facts" are controversial, so let's list
those differently (with an asterisk if you choose to keep them) and in any
case none of them are even important for my work.
But others go on with wicko and chickle stuff.
Independently, I give an example of "Savoy Truffle." I picked this one
specifically because it's generally thought to be completely "explained"
if I can use the word. And I give the extension which doesn't contradict
the conventional explanation, but expands it. Either it is right or wrong.
If it is wrong, I'd surely like to know. I have no particular mission in
being wrong.
But it takes a wee bit more to have a credible contribution than just
namecalling. (I guess I wouldn't mind the names if there was some content
or insight accompanying them.)
Why do people not want to know new things about the songs from those who
were there? In this case, we have new information from someone who was
there and some written collaborating evidence. I don't know why the knee
jerks so, and speculated that it was about the architypical nature that
Lennon has assumed.
I use the internet daily for my AI collaboration (of which this Beatles
effort is a small part). In fact, I am one of the original ARPAnetters
from 30 years back. It is not my experience to find people so eager to
misinterpret and transmute things into personal attacks. Is it just the
nature of this group?
At any rate. Sorry if your feathers were ruffled. Now, can we get back to
what the lyrics are all about? My biggest missing pieces are: when was
John introduced to absinthe? Was it as early as Hamburg and connected to
Voorman? When was Paul's garden designed? And a few smaller items.
Best, Ted
na
Ted Goranson wrote in message ...
>
>But others go on with wicko and chickle stuff.
its chuckle
saki
>
>Ted Goranson wrote in message ...
>>
>>of energy on it, and claimed that it was the outline for the WA.
To my knowledge, Paul was not known for his horticultural prowess; in
fact, there's no description of the Cavendish Avenue garden I can find
except to refer to it as "tree-lined". Much more thought seems to have
gone into the interior decoration of the house itself, which was
apparently modelled on the Asher home in Wimpole Street, where Paul had
lived three years before buying his own London house.
George was the real gardener of the Fabs. I'm unaware of any evidence
tying in Paul's garden to the White Album. Perhaps you can site some
sources for those of us who are curious.
>>Or maybe
>>you think the cat's name is unimportant. The Beatles acted out the
>>play-within-aplay from Midsummer's night dream, which features Thisbe. I
>>know that Paul forced this and the others were annoyed. Still need the
>>date and other details of the TV show where this occured.
The show was "Around The Beatles", taped on 28 April 1964 and broadcast on
6 May 1964. I'm unaware of any information suggesting that Paul "forced"
the other Beatles to perform a short excerpt from "Midsummer Night's
Dream". It was filmed at Wembley Studios; the music portion of the show
was filmed at IBC Studios, Portland Place.
If we're going to discuss Paul's cat Thisbe, I think it's important to
consider his other cats too: Jesus, Mary and Joseph. The symbolism is
equally worthy of attention. And I'd like to know whatever became of
Mary's kittens. Perhaps the folks over at Macca-L would be able to help
with this one.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"You're hooked, you're cooked, you're caught in the tender trap."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
sa...@evolution.bchs.uh.edu
na
Jeff U wrote in message <7atkqa$aj6$1...@news1.fast.net>...
>I'll bet Scotch and Coke played a much more important role in Lennon's life
>than absinthe. Why the interest?
>
>Jeff
>
probably the old wive's tale about the stuff sending you mad or blind or
drunk or oneof those sorts of things...
sounds weird to me
saki
Mr. Goranson says:
>>> > 58 Jane Asher makes stage debut with ³Alice in Wonderland²
>>>
>>> Jane Asher's stage debut is a "key event"?
It probably was to Jane. :-) Though as I recall Jane actually made her
stage debut prior to "Alice" in some now-forgotten children's theatricals
in London, with her brother Peter. Both of them also did television. I can
search for the names of the productions for you, but wouldn't this
endanger your thesis? And what about her performance at age five in the
film "Mandy" (1952), where Jane played a deaf child? Surely that accounts
for something?
If you like concordances, Jane later played Alice's mother, Mrs. Liddell,
in "Dreamchild", a film about Dodgson (Lewis Carroll) and his friendship
with Alice Liddell who inspired the stories. And for some really weird
stuff, in the "Alice" recording Mr. Goranson references here, Deryck
Guyler plays the Cheshire Cat and Bill the Lizard. Six points for anyone
who can tell me another Beatles reference involving Mr. Guyler. Twelve
points to anyone who can tell me where you can buy a black carnation on
Sunday in West Malling, Maidstone, Kent. Even if you *are* the Beatles.
>>It is a key event to me. The tape of this production was played over and
>>over by John and Paul in the 5960 timeframe
Interesting, but no evidence whatever for this. Neither John nor Paul
seemed to have been taken with Jane Asher before 1963. Paul says of her:
"We knew her as the rather attractive, nice, well-spoken chick that we'd
seen that year on 'Juke Box Jury'." (MYFN, p. 102). This doesn't bode well
as an indicator of "Winston Churchill"-style infatuation by either John
or Paul. Neither does there exist, so far as we know, any snippet of tape
belonging to the lads with a recording of Jane's "Alice" performance, nor
any anecdotal report of same.
>How did they do this? Did the struggling pair somehow have access to the
>BBC's film archives? In London? which they had never been to at that
>point. How could they play it over and over? on what?
There was a 1958 Decca recording of Jane playing Alice. And let's remember
that John and Paul borrowed reel to reel tape equipment from art
school...still, can you see John and Paul swaggering into NEMS to ask Mr.
Epstein for Decca's latest hit, "Alice in Wonderland"? Now, Raymond Jones
might well have done it....
>What evidence do you have that Jane Asher's stage acting debut had anything
>to do with the creation of John's I Am The Walrus? I've no doubt John was
>influenced by Carrol's tale, but from reading it, not Asher's portrayal of
>it 8 years earlier.
John came by his interest in the Alice books naturally. He read them and
loved them. He didn't need Jane Asher to instruct him. No offense to Ms.
Asher, of course.
>> Don't you think it's important that while a teenager,
>>John fantasized about Bardot and Paul about Asher?
John liked Bardot, but in a 1963 interview he lists Sophia Loren and
Juliette Greco as his fave raves; Paul lists...Bardot and Greco! Not one
mention of Jane Asher, who was still in an awkward teenage stage in '63
and up to that point had played children and adolescents on stage and in
films/TV.
I'm unaware that Paul fantasized about Asher before he met her, but I
always welcome fresh, substantive information.
Paul's brother, Michael, is on record as having had the hots for Jane, but
that's a different story. He was two years younger than Paul.
>> And that both Alice and
>>Jane end up playing roles in their lives?
I don't know about you, but the role of Jane's life was probably either
"Deep End" (1971), "Brideshead Revisited" (1981), "Henceforward" (1986) or
"The Things We Do For Love" (1998). Or maybe she liked her Shakespearean
work best (I don't think she played Thisbe though). Or maybe she considers
Mrs. Scarfe to be the role of her life. Playing Alice in the theatre or on
a recording was certainly a pleasant accomplishment for a twelve year old
but neither a world-shattering event nor Jane's best work; we also lack
interviews with Jane indicating that she saw her "Alice" role as pivotal.
Okay, that's all the Jane Asher material. Someone else can handle the
absinthe.
Ted Goranson
> I'll bet Scotch and Coke played a much more important role in Lennon's life
> than absinthe. Why the interest?
Because we know that some of his time near Almeria was spent intoxicated
by absinthe. The connection is that it was Van Gogh's drug of choice. It
was during this time that John read The Magus, and wrote Starwberry
Fields. That song is not acid-inspired, but thujone-inspired. I think the
scotch and coke came later. But as has been pointed out, I'm not very
knowledgable about Lennon after 1969.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
(saki) wrote:
> George was the real gardener of the Fabs. I'm unaware of any evidence
> tying in Paul's garden to the White Album. Perhaps you can site some
> sources for those of us who are curious.
Thanks for your time and courtesy in responding with real information. My
goal is not to make my case here. It is a rather long presentation which
is not explained well under adversarial defensiveness. But you do deserve
an answer.
I'm interested in a certain logical structure that was refined in
Elizabethan England and through an accident of history was used by Carroll
in Alice in Wonderland, in part because of the logical issus involved
(Dodgson was England's other great logician with Boole).
So, I trace the evolution of this thread in literature because it can be
used in a large computer-augmented visualization project I'm involved
with. We find several writers consciously using this structure and
discussing it aloud. Cogent authors are Joyce in Finnegans Wake and Fowles
in The Magus.
The project would be absolutely solid without the Beatles. Solid in the
sense that good scholarship is used and no "conspiracy theory" is invoked.
But we had some evidence that the Beatles also became aware of this
connection. Instead of working through scholastic paths (like Frances
Yates who was still alive in the UK then), it was for the Beatles through
"occult" inferences through Dunbar etc. I've mentioned Bond.
The introduction of the occult makes things messy and somewhat
unattractive to me. Yet it is of interest tome also just from the
curiousity of having gone through the 60's myself.
So we have a key Beatles associate from this period who tells us in
interviews that they signed up to create a new Alice using the logical
structure of the Tarot, just as Carroll did. This is the same as others
did. We are told that John read The Magus and was impressed. We are told
that Paul designed his garden according to this design, available most
notably in Crowley's works. That he bought (or had made?) Alice statues
that were placed around the garden culminating in the meditation dome.
This we've been told, but I have not seen a layout of the garden. You can
see the rearranged statues on the cover of "The Ballad of John and Yoko."
Paul's concern with this arrangement was opposed by George who parodied
the statues in his own garden and on the cover of "All Things Must Pass."
So we decide to pursue it. We discover a few rather interesting things so
decide to package them (lawyers willing) in a standalone book, perhaps
also with the Carrol and Bulwer-Lytton material. But, as you can see here,
we don't do so well when getting our info from books, which we have to do
for all stuff after 69. (Incidentally, maybe someone can tell me the mine
I set off when citing Goldman. Just speaking as a dumb reader with no
special information about the NYC years it sounds largely credible. But as
I've said before, that's just "wrapper" information for our project.)
And in pursuing it, we seek insights on the later info because we do not
have, no do we plan, interviews about this period.
I repeat, there is some use we have or this beyond idle curiousity. We
have some first-hand knowledge which appears new, and lends credibility to
the idea that the Rishikesh authoring was loosely based on Alice and
Tarot.
This is not so rare. We've mentioned the strong influence that Bond had in
promoting Crowley who himself promotes Alice. The Incredible String Band
produced very many Alice/Taot songs in 67-68 and in fact John wanted a Sgt
Pepper cover "just like" The Fool's cover for the ISB. Jeremy and Clyde
(then pretty capable) were doing "Cabbages and Kings," The Jefferson
Airplane did White Rabbit (which didn't involve tarot, just drugs). The
Family did a Tarot Album, even stealing the Beatles title "Music in a
Doll's House."
Donovan (who was in Rishikesh and (we speculate) helped with the
structure, produced a number of Alice songs immediately after which he
claimed were written then. Folks, this is not so hard to believe.
Along the way, this new knowledge has produced some insights about the
songs that are not part of the Alice-Tarot agenda. We would expect this.
Here's one:
Hey Jude was written for Jules, of course. But there's other sources in
there too, right? You probably know that the Beatles were Lord Buckley
fans, along the lines of the goon show and other wise-comedy stuff.
Buckley's most famous routine is "The Nazz" about Jesus. A section is
quoted here:
__________
So came a little sixty-cent gig one day, and The Nazz was in a bind, and
he put it on a couple of his boys. He say, łBoys, take care of that for
me, would ya?˛
And they say, łYou take it off your wig, Nazz, weąll cool it.˛
And they started out to straighten it out for The Nazz.
And they got about half way to where they were goiną and they came to a
little old twenty-cent pool of water and they got right in the pool of
water with the boat and all of a sudden, Blam!, the lightniną flashiną and
the thunder roariną and the boat is goiną up and down and these poor cats
figured every minute gonna be their last and one cat look up andŠ here
come The Nazz!
Cool as anyone you see. Right across the water.
Stompiną
And there was a little cat on board, I think his name was Jude.
He say, łHey, Nazz, can I make it out there witcha?˛
And The Nazz say, łMake it, Jude!˛
Old Jude went stompiną off that boat, took four steps, dropped his whole
cart, and the Nazz had to stash him back on board.
So The Nazz say, łSay, what seem to be troubliną you boys?˛
He say, łYou hittiną on that S.O.S.iną bell pretty hard. You gonna bend
that bell, knockiną on it like that.˛
One of the cats say, ł ąWhat seems to be troubliną ya?!?!ą Canąt ya see
the stormąs goiną and the lightniną flashiną and the thunder roarinąŠ ?˛
And The Nazz say, łI told you to stay cool, didnąt I, babies?˛
__________
The way that Buckley sings these lines: "Make it Jude" is _exactly_ like
the way that Paul does them later. This insight is not from the
interviews, but the source tells us about parts of "Help From My Friends"
from another famous Buckley routine and we just looked around for other
connections. Cool huh?
Best, Ted
LLS2112
>Because we know that some of his time near Almeria was spent intoxicated
>by absinthe. The connection is that it was Van Gogh's drug of choice. It
>was during this time that John read The Magus, and wrote Starwberry
>Fields. That song is not acid-inspired, but thujone-inspired. I think the
>scotch and coke came later. But as has been pointed out, I'm not very
>knowledgable about Lennon after 1969.
>
>
>Best, Ted
before late 1966. Why do you think the scotch and coke came later? Where did
you read or hear about John Lennon drinking absinthe while in Spain in 1966?
Was it in Goldman's book?
Laura
Laura
> >Huh? -laura
>
> <<Same source. Of interest to me
> because I focus exclusively on the
> White Album. This helps explain why
> Such as? -laura
<<To change the world by creating a
magical structure based on Tarot and
Alice in Wonderland. This what I present
they tried with the WA. The steam
went out with John's increasingly
erratic behaviour, leaving Paul to
push and push. -Ted>>
Ted:
While I don't dispute that John's behavior was erratic at times, or that
Paul had to work hard to keep the group recording for the last couple of
years, I think you need to do one of two things with regard to this
stuff about Alice and Tarot. Either refer to it as a theory you're
developing/researching or produce some evidence that the Beatles
intended this magical structure. Come to think of it, doing both would
probably be a good idea.
It's not that opinions aren't allowed, or that you have to imbed "IMO"
in every sentence, but when you present something no one has ever heard
before as facts, you'd better be prepared to supply evidence. -laura
Rex Mundi
You are correct, Ms. Laura.
P.S. This is M7, Rex Mundi is my work nick.
And I'm drunk on Scotch and cokes as we speak :-)
Ted Goranson
> before late 1966. Why do you think the scotch and coke came later? Where did
> you read or hear about John Lennon drinking absinthe while in Spain in 1966?
> Was it in Goldman's book?
>
>
> Laura
From the interview with our key source who was quite sure about this. I
was wrong about the scotch and soda being later it seems.
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
> While I don't dispute that John's behavior was erratic at times, or that
> Paul had to work hard to keep the group recording for the last couple of
> years, I think you need to do one of two things with regard to this
> stuff about Alice and Tarot. Either refer to it as a theory you're
> developing/researching or produce some evidence that the Beatles
> intended this magical structure. Come to think of it, doing both would
> probably be a good idea.
>
> It's not that opinions aren't allowed, or that you have to imbed "IMO"
> in every sentence, but when you present something no one has ever heard
> before as facts, you'd better be prepared to supply evidence. -laura
Laura--
Thanks for your response.
I don't see my mission in posting to convey the "theory" or convince
anyone of it. That will happen in another, more approriate forum. It IS a
theory of course, but it is advised by:
-Pretty extensive scholarship on the Harriot/Alice stuff independent of
the Beatles or any popular musician, but involving several literary
figures. (We're talking a long time, a lot of people, and a lot of money
here.)
-One rather important figure who was there (during the psychedelic times)
and who kindly allowed us some interviews. This was backed up by several
other sources in smaller direct queries.
So having said that, it is a theory.
But as I say, My goal here is to fill out some "facts." Since everyone
here has presumably only written sources, I guess their input has to be
taken with grains of salt too, since so many of those sources have their
own reasons to spin things. For example Jeff helped me with the scotch
dates where I was mistaken. But his source was Brian, who we know fed us
lots of lies concerning their behaviour.
My goal instead was to get some "facts" straight since I now know quite a
bit about a narrow time, and very little about before and after. I'll give
back. Did you see the "Hey Jude" matter I posted? That's new, and should
be interesting, regardless of any theories. I shouldn't have mentioned the
overall Alice stuff because it seems odd. (I note that there is fellow
selling a book of his on a web site. It contains material that is very
quackish.)
Anyway, I turn in another message to a timeline on drugs. If that goes
well, I'll make one on Alice alone and Tarot alone.
Best, Ted
LLS2112
Laura
Ted Goranson
(saki) wrote:
> In article <7atk5j$ac1$1...@news1.fast.net> "Jeff U" <opus...@fast.net> writes:
>
> Mr. Goranson says:
>
> >>> > 58 Jane Asher makes stage debut with ³Alice in Wonderland²
> >>>
> >>> Jane Asher's stage debut is a "key event"?
>
> It probably was to Jane. :-)
....
> Okay, that's all the Jane Asher material. Someone else can handle the
> absinthe.
Saki--
Sorry that I did not respond earlier to your Jane Asher information.
For the record, my thesis (or theory or whatever you wish to call it) is
that the Beatles structured the White Album in a certain rather loose way
because someone convinced them that by doing so they could change the
world for the better. This was right after and as a result of the "Our
World" broadcast where they really did believe that they were bringing
about a positive change.
That the structure is based on some ideas of occult origin and rather
questionable validity is almost an incidental issue. (But the study of
this doesn't make me an occultist I hope.) The basis of this is Alice. So
anything that relates to Alice is of some interest. Someone asked why
Jane's Alice production was on my list. It is because she _was_ Alice to
John and Paul's generation more than even the Disney Alice.
It doesn't matter whether that production was her first, or her most
important. What does matter is that Paul owned that record and played it.
He well knew who Jane was before he met her at that hit parade deal. These
two insights come from someone he told this to that related them to me. I
inferred that had he the hots for her (she _was_ stunning), but I see now
that it was Mike.
The White Album's structure would have been attempted whether Jane existed
or not. This isn't a conspiracy theory, so my "thesis" is not affected by
what you write (which to my knowledge is mostly correct). The only
important thing is that Paul as well as John had an interest in Alice as
fun thing early in the game. It's just curious that there is this
coincidence with Jane and Alice. Paul thought so.
Curiouser and curiouser is a production you leave out. When asked in the
80s what her favorite stage production was, she replied "50,000 nights."
(I may have the number wrong.) In this play, she is Ellen Terry, possibly
the best English actress so far. (Actresses apparently like to play
actresses.) Ellen was Charles Dodgson's second great love. He proposed to
her and was turned down of course. He refused to take orders at Oxford (at
great cost to his career) because of his "unseemly love" of the theater,
and this was in large part due to Ellen.
Carroll's second Alice story "Through the Looking-Glass" also stars Alice
Liddell, but by this time, Carroll had Ellen in mind. TTLG is the source
of almost all of the Beatles Alice imagery. Just another interesting
coincidence.
By the way, Jane claims that her two fiction books were "inspired" by
discussions with Paul. They are "The Longing" and "The Question." I have
copies en route. Have you read them?
Best, Ted
Ted Goranson
>>rec.music.beatles)
>>
>>In article <7atkqa$aj6$1...@news1.fast.net>, "Jeff U" <opus...@fast.net>
wrote:
>>
>>> I'll bet Scotch and Coke played a much more important role in Lennon's
life
>>> than absinthe. Why the interest?
>>
>>by absinthe. The connection is that it was Van Gogh's drug of choice. It
>>was during this time that John read The Magus, and wrote Starwberry
>>Fields. That song is not acid-inspired, but thujone-inspired. I think the
>>scotch and coke came later. But as has been pointed out, I'm not very
>>knowledgable about Lennon after 1969.
>>
>>
>>Best, Ted
>
>Scotch and Coke as a "Beatle favorite" in 1964.
>
>Jeff
Jeff--
Thanks for the information. You are right of course as others have pointed
out. If I knew what I was talking about, I wouldnąt have asked for help.
And I should have targeted my initial query better. I attempt a restart
now.
Each Beatleąs music was affected by the drugs they used. Can we create a
drug timeline? I start one below. These are not facts. Every entry is
drawn from simple reading, the same all of you except that I have strong
testimony for the absinthe use by John. Any (except the absinthe) could be
wrong. Corrections are greatly appreciated. Once this is done, maybe weąll
see how the musical vision changed.
The post-69 John years all have asterisks associated with them because the
only source I have is Goldman, Seaman, Pang, Green etc, who all seem to be
discredited here. So those are alleged dirty rumors or however the
chicklet guy puts it.
-----
Pre 60-- All Beatles: Booze? (Rum and Cokes is an Adolescent Drink. Right?)
60-- All Beatles: Add Speed? (Which except George, All Continued to use
before Most Shows?)
63 Spring-- First exposure of John to Absinthe when in Spain with Brian?
64 Summer-- All Beatles: Add Pot?
65-- John and George: Infrequent Acid?
66-- John: Serious Acid for Three Years; Paul and Ringo: Infrequent Acid?
66 Fall-- John: Deep into Absinthe for a Short Time.
68-- All Beatles: Add Speedballs, Occasional Coke?
69 and on--
-- (*)John and Yoko: Alternating among Heroin, Methadone, and Being Clean.
Period in LA Focuses on Alcohol. Also has a Time of Severe Caffeine Abuse?
-- (*)Ringo: Constantly Fighting Alcohism, Sometimes Dry?
-- George: Free from Psychedelics and Narcotics (and Meat!) from 67.
George does have a Period were he Uses Nicotene as a Mind Alterer. Also
has 2-3 Years where he uses Speed (The Racing Kind) to łAchieve a Timeless
State˛?
-- Paul: Constant Pot Use, and Occasionally Deep, Guided Cannabis Trips?
I repeat. I am representing these as neither facts nor something I
strongly believe in. But Iąd like for them to evolve into both. Comments?
Best, Ted
na
Rex Mundi wrote in message <36d32d06...@news.jbx.com>...
>You are correct, Ms. Laura.
>P.S. This is M7, Rex Mundi is my work nick.
no wonder you use M7
>And I'm drunk on Scotch and cokes as we speak :-)
are you a cop?
saki
>Someone asked why
>Jane's Alice production was on my list. It is because she _was_ Alice to
>John and Paul's generation more than even the Disney Alice.
I don't think there's any verifiable evidence for this. Neither John nor
Paul have ever commented on Jane's performance as Alice. How do you
support this without evidence? Eager minds desire enlightenment.
>It doesn't matter whether that production was her first, or her most
>important. What does matter is that Paul owned that record and played it.
No evidence for this either! Neither Fabs AFAIK has ever admitted to
owning this disc. I own it and don't mind saying so. But I never loaned it
to John or Paul.
>He well knew who Jane was before he met her at that hit parade deal. These
>two insights come from someone he told this to that related them to me.
Documentation is your friend. Make sure you're not being taken for a ride.
>It's just curious that there is this
>coincidence with Jane and Alice. Paul thought so.
Where did Paul say so? Curious minds become curiouser and curiouser.
>Curiouser and curiouser is a production you leave out. When asked in the
>80s what her favorite stage production was, she replied "50,000 nights."
Citation please? Just for the record. We Asher historians like to leave
nothing to chance.
>(I may have the number wrong.) In this play, she is Ellen Terry, possibly
>the best English actress so far. (Actresses apparently like to play
>actresses.)
Except that Jane never played Ellen Terry. or am I misunderstanding you?
Goodness..."best English actress"! What a debate we open with that one!
:-)
>Ellen was Charles Dodgson's second great love. He proposed to
>her and was turned down of course.
According to Morton Cohen, Dodgson biographer, "Charles [Lewis Carroll]
may well have worshiped the actress, but love and marriage was entirely
out of the question: when he first met her, she was already married"
("Lewis Carroll: A Biography" [1995], p. 342).
>He refused to take orders at Oxford (at
>great cost to his career) because of his "unseemly love" of the theater,
>and this was in large part due to Ellen.
Not supported by the facts. Dodgson was ordained in 1861; he mentions in a
letter to a cousin (to whom he was already a godfather) that he found
himself "established as a Mathematical Lecturer, and with no sort of
inclination to give it up and take parochial work" ("Lewis Carroll", p.
362). Any angst over Ellen Terry is unexpressed by Carroll in this
decision not to take further priestly orders.
>Carroll's second Alice story "Through the Looking-Glass" also stars Alice
>Liddell, but by this time, Carroll had Ellen in mind.
No evidence for this. I'm happy to be convinced, however, by substantive
information.
>By the way, Jane claims that her two fiction books were "inspired" by
>discussions with Paul.
Jane is absolutely predictable in never mentioning Paul; she refuses to
answer questions about him or her relationship with him. I've read every
article extant about her two novels. She doesn't mention Paul; relays no
inspiration from Paul; has, in fact, not talked to Paul about the novels;
won't talk about Paul no matter what.
How do you divine this? Just curious. Citations for your sources would be
most welcome.
>They are "The Longing" and "The Question." I have copies en route. Have
>you read them?
Yes. Stick with Edith Wharton. Therein lies the key to Lennon-McCartney
compositional imagery!
lennon fan
he wrote a particular song,
Denny Laine sez Paul and Linda did lotsa Coke during the Wings years,
John admitted to smoking pot in his later years.
Boy, the fabs did love their drugs, didn't they?:)
Rex Mundi
>I knew I was correct. Oh, and you shouldn't be drinking on the job. :)
>Laura
I assume you're referring to my post yesterday. Or was it 3 days ago?
*hic* ;-)
Rex Mundi
John was still doing mushrooms towards the end as well. Hey, I still
smoke pot, what's the big deal? Not everyone let's their lives get
screwed up by it.
M7
Ted Goranson
Thanks for your thoughful reply. None of the things we are talking about
are important to the central premise of my work, and may bore some on this
list, I guess. But they are amusing anyway. Perhaps the best way to reply
is to continue massive requotes. Sorry for the inconvenience.
In article <7b02kh$oq9$1...@Masala.CC.UH.EDU>, sa...@evolution.bchs.uh.edu
(saki) wrote:
> In article <tedg-23029...@pm4-1-s3-6.orf.infi.net> te...@infi.net
(Ted Goranson) writes:
>
> >Someone asked why
> >Jane's Alice production was on my list. It is because she _was_ Alice to
> >John and Paul's generation more than even the Disney Alice.
>
> I don't think there's any verifiable evidence for this. Neither John nor
> Paul have ever commented on Jane's performance as Alice. How do you
> support this without evidence? Eager minds desire enlightenment.
>
> >It doesn't matter whether that production was her first, or her most
> >important. What does matter is that Paul owned that record and played it.
>
> No evidence for this either! Neither Fabs AFAIK has ever admitted to
> owning this disc. I own it and don't mind saying so. But I never loaned it
> to John or Paul.
>
> >He well knew who Jane was before he met her at that hit parade deal. These
> >two insights come from someone he told this to that related them to me.
>
> Documentation is your friend. Make sure you're not being taken for a ride.
>
> >It's just curious that there is this
> >coincidence with Jane and Alice. Paul thought so.
>
> Where did Paul say so? Curious minds become curiouser and curiouser.
My source says so. It's good enough for me, because it fits everything
else we know. It may be buggy beer to ask you to accept this, but that's
as it is. More about that at the end.
> >Curiouser and curiouser is a production you leave out. When asked in the
> >80s what her favorite stage production was, she replied "50,000 nights."
>
> Citation please? Just for the record. We Asher historians like to leave
> nothing to chance.
>
> >(I may have the number wrong.) In this play, she is Ellen Terry, possibly
> >the best English actress so far. (Actresses apparently like to play
> >actresses.)
>
> Except that Jane never played Ellen Terry. or am I misunderstanding you?
>
> Goodness..."best English actress"! What a debate we open with that one!
> :-)
Henry Irving is a legend. Most people don't know that Shakespeare was all
but forgotten until the early 1800's until Irving pretty much
singlehandedly revived him. His favorite actresss and one of his core was
Ellen, who was the most famous of a theatrical family (from whom John
Gielguld descends). The success of this revival was in no small part aided
by Ellen's incredible talent. So she is often cited as one of the best
stage actresses of all time. Need I remind you that it doesn't matter to
me?
Someone at a Carroll symposium mentioned the "50,000 Nights" play to me
and also Asher's comment. I subsequently saw something about the play on
the web, and Asher's involvement (but not the quote of course). However,
for this reply, I have been unable to refind it. It wasn't important to me
work so I did not recover it. As I get older, my memory sometimes fails. I
have a query out on this and will get back to you on whether you or I are
correct. I repeat that I may be wrong on the number in the title.
> >Ellen was Charles Dodgson's second great love. He proposed to
> >her and was turned down of course.
>
> According to Morton Cohen, Dodgson biographer, "Charles [Lewis Carroll]
> may well have worshiped the actress, but love and marriage was entirely
> out of the question: when he first met her, she was already married"
> ("Lewis Carroll: A Biography" [1995], p. 342).
I admire your energy in looking this up. It is a strange inconsistency
though. On page 307 of the same book:" Charles was, of course, enchanted
by the mystique of the theater and the people connected with it, but in
the early years, he idolized Ellen Terry above all. For him, she
personified the theater itself, and he worshipped her as his thesbian
goddess. His diaries contain eighty-three entries about her. He saw
virtually every play she acted in and frequently went backstage to see
her."
One of those diary entries was on 16 June 1856 ("The Life and Letters of
Lewis Carroll," Collingwood, p68) where he saw "A Winter's Night" and he
"especially admired the acting of Ellen Terry, a beautiful little
creature, who played with remarkable ease and spirit," She was nine at the
time, roughly the same age as Alice Liddell. There is no record of him
visiting her backstage on that day, but he was known as a perisistent
backstage visitor, and surely did so soon after.
Back to the Cohn book, p238, you'll have Dodgson's photo of her at 16. By
the time he started photographing the Terry family, she was already
post-puberty. But it is widely thought that nude photos of her younger
sisters were among the hundreds of such that were burned after his death.
The family was quite comfortable with nudity and "open" marriages and an
effete promiscuity, and this doubtless was one attraction for Carroll.
Cohn has been taken to task for the passage you cleverly found. The
Dodgson/Terry relationship has been in the top three of discussion topics
for Carroll scholars (which I am not). It is such a part of the Carroll
story that it is used many times in Finnegans Wake by Joyce, which is
getting somewhat back to the original topic.
Ellen had a long career and actually performed in a silent film at 75, in
the 1922 "The Bohemian Girl," which I haven't seen.
> >He refused to take orders at Oxford (at
> >great cost to his career) because of his "unseemly love" of the theater,
> >and this was in large part due to Ellen.
>
> Not supported by the facts. Dodgson was ordained in 1861; he mentions in a
> letter to a cousin (to whom he was already a godfather) that he found
> himself "established as a Mathematical Lecturer, and with no sort of
> inclination to give it up and take parochial work" ("Lewis Carroll", p.
> 362). Any angst over Ellen Terry is unexpressed by Carroll in this
> decision not to take further priestly orders.
You are using the best Carroll biography, but you need to dig deeper. (You
didn't do a selective "Ken Starr" did you?)
Carroll took Deacon's orders in 1861, which was pretty small beer (page
364 says this was "'practically' a layman"). His reason for doing so was
his enthusiasm for the theater which was his euphemism for dabbling in the
occult.At this time, he was involved with playwrite/author Bulwer-Lytton
who revived the occult in England, mentor to Macgregor Liddell (!) Mathers
which led to Aleister Crowley and to Bond (who thought he was Crowley's
son) who I've mentioned already as a factor in the Beatles story. The
trend is now continued by the Church of Scientology which uses the same
occult principles.
At any rate, the failure to take _priestly_ orders was a big deal. Oxford
was still nominally a C of E institution. Look at p365; "Charles' refusal
to go on to the priesthood may have become a point of contention between
him and other college members. It seems clear that the Dean [Alice's
father] did not look favorably on Charles' decision, and this point may
have rankled, setting the stage for later disputes." Other scholars note
specific problems and limits.
> >Carroll's second Alice story "Through the Looking-Glass" also stars Alice
> >Liddell, but by this time, Carroll had Ellen in mind.
>
> No evidence for this. I'm happy to be convinced, however, by substantive
> information.
This is in the book. But it may not be substantive in the way you mean. It
does not cite something in a book by someone, but presents from "First
principle" as it were. Nothing revolutionary here. By the time of the
second book, he was barred from the Liddell house, but extremely good
friends with Ellen. She got a presentation copy before Alice.
> >By the way, Jane claims that her two fiction books were "inspired" by
> >discussions with Paul.
>
> Jane is absolutely predictable in never mentioning Paul; she refuses to
> answer questions about him or her relationship with him. I've read every
> article extant about her two novels. She doesn't mention Paul; relays no
> inspiration from Paul; has, in fact, not talked to Paul about the novels;
> won't talk about Paul no matter what.
>
> How do you divine this? Just curious. Citations for your sources would be
> most welcome.
>
> >They are "The Longing" and "The Question." I have copies en route. Have
> >you read them?
>
> Yes. Stick with Edith Wharton. Therein lies the key to Lennon-McCartney
> compositional imagery!
We got into this rather backwards from the way I imagine you did. We have
a general need for cosmologies in literature, and have witnesses from the
period. Because the annotated lyrics are what we actually use, that's
where 90% othe effort has gone. Now, as we think this may make an
interesting "standalone" document, we need to look at all the surrounding
history. It's a job figuring which of the document threads to trace. You
are correct that Jane seems to have said little about Paul (is there an
apochryphal "Things He Said Today"?).
(This is to say we start with the work then look at personal testimony
then scour the "books.")
In determining whether to study the Asher fiction books, on an on-line
service I saw a review of one of them that said something like "Although
Ms Asher claims this book was inspired by discussions with Beatle Paul
McCartney, it is absolute drivel." I didn't keep it, because it isn't
important. When I rad them, I'll be looking for traces of Alain Fourniers
and Alfred Jarry.
About sources:
I'm sorry that I cannot blow you away by providing the names of the
sources and quotes from them. There are some problemmatic legal issues
involved here. But I do consider what we are getting as reliable.
In 1970, I was doing research at MIT on using religious cosmologies as a
metophoric substrate for synthetic computer worlds. I met a world famous
cosmologist who had been consulted by the Beatles over this White Album
thing. I put them as a key case in a thesis for one of my degrees. Both of
us thought at the time that the use of Alice by the Beatles would become
open knowledge. But it didn't happen.
The ideas (minus Beatles specifics) have been used in some very large
programs, some still classified. The most recent state is in my new book
that's coming out later this year:
http://info.greenwood.com/books/1567202/1567202640.html
But you can see the technical agenda in several of my projects:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0262660806/qid=919880313/sr=1-7/002-8336944-5804441
which I sponsored (and wrote much of) and others whose book URLs I don't
have at the moment.
Best, Ted
LLS2112
>I assume you're referring to my post yesterday. Or was it 3 days ago?
>*hic* ;-)
>
I was referring to your post yesterday.
Laura
R Lapworth
from sa...@evolution.bchs.uh.edu (saki) contains these words:
> George was the real gardener of the Fabs.
There you go again, letting your preference for George cloud your judgement.
As every objective Beatle person knows, it was John who was the
gardener, as evidenced by his song 'Dig It.'
Ron