Mambo Dancers' Rift Leaves Stepped-On Toes
Yambu
September 3, 2000
Mambo Dancers' Rift Leaves Stepped-On Toes
By MIREYA NAVARRO
Meredith Davenport for The New York Times
Partners dancing in Manhattan in the "on 2" style, based on
percussion. Many prefer the 1, based on melody.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kate Shanley and Humberto Lopez met in a nightclub with starfish on
the walls and a pulsing Latin beat in the air. They caught each
other's eye immediately -- she of the long blond hair, white pants and
rabbit fur top; he of the orange shirt and handsome dark looks.
A song was starting and he asked her to dance. She said yes and they
locked bodies in the semidarkness.
Then they bumped knees. Then they pulled in different directions. Then
the song became interminable. When it was over, they hung out together
but did not dance again.
"It was a total mess," said Mr. Lopez, 23, a waiter from Queens.
"It was kind of a disaster," agreed Ms. Shanley, 44, an advertising
sales representative who is also from Queens.
Ms. Shanley was dancing "on 2," known as New York-style mambo, in
which the first long step, known as the break step, comes on the
second beat and there are no pauses.
Mr. Lopez was dancing "on 1," the style favored by many mambo dancers
in which the first long step comes on the first beat, and the dancers
pause on the fourth and the eighth beats.
The encounter occurred two months ago in Miami, but it could have
taken place on any dance floor in any Latin club these days. Call it
the mambo wars.
Dancers on the 1 beat say they follow the melody, dancers on the 2,
the percussion.
"When you are that one beat off, you're not in sync," said Ms.
Shanley, who has since taught Mr. Lopez "on 2." "I try to just follow,
but when that happens, you try to get the guy to come to your timing.
But if he can't, you have to stay wherever he is."
Going out dancing did not used to be such a struggle.
But salsa dancing, as mambo is often known today, is hotter than ever,
surpassing even the craze of the 1950's. Cultural historians attribute
the resurgent popularity in part to globalization and the Internet.
With the wider appeal has come a new zeal to dance well.
In New York, dance studios report record enrollment in salsa classes,
higher than that for tango or swing in major studios like DanceSport
in Manhattan. And many more instructors than before are teaching the
"on 2," the style that old-timers recall as a favorite during the
heyday of the Palladium in the 1950's and of the Mambo King himself,
Tito Puente, who died on May 31.
With the advent of salsa Web sites, international dance performance
tours and even an annual world salsa congress in Puerto Rico, the
style has been spreading to cities like Los Angeles and Chicago and
abroad, to countries like Italy and Japan.
But as the 2's run into the 1's, a night out can turn into a pressure
cooker. In many Latin clubs in New York, the dancers -- white, black,
Asian, Hispanic -- come from many different cultures, but they are
grouped not by ethnicity, but by beat.
"People go to clubs to get rid of stress, but now there's more stress
on the dance floor than at work," said Eddie Torres, a longtime New
York mambo instructor who is widely recognized as a master of "on 2."
"You go to clubs and it's like the Olympics of salsa. It's not a
healthy competition. There are girls who tell me that a partner would
try to give them a class in the middle of the dance floor."
Pedro Reyes, 26, an electronics technician, was clinging to his fellow
1's on a recent Wednesday night on the first floor of Nell's, on West
14th Street near Eighth Avenue in Manhattan, which has Cuban Soul
nights once a week. The "on 2" aficionados were in the basement.
Once, Mr. Reyes said, he ventured into "on 2" territory only to be
told by a woman that he did not know how to dance. "It's just the
opposite," he said. "I can't dance like that. They're from the dance
studios. It's more cabaret, more show."
The upside is that there is a good deal of great dancing going on in
many places. At clubs like the Latin Quarter on the Upper West Side
and the Copacabana in Midtown, "on 2" dancers are easy to spot: their
style is skillful and flashy, with men spinning women like tops and
partners separating every now and then to show off fancy footwork
known as "shines."
But some couples look like clones of one another. And many "on 2"
dancers will not dance with just anyone. In this subculture, dancers
often take classes every week. They hold socials where no alcohol is
served. They even have their own Web site, SalsaNewYork.com, which
lists dance events and includes "on 2" dancers in an e-mail list "as
long as this is their preferred and dominant way of dancing to salsa."
Ben Rapoport, 34, Web master of Salsaweb.com, a popular salsa site,
knows and appreciates both styles, but he said he understood why the
"on 2" dancers wanted to stick together. "As soon as you start
learning moves, dancing becomes another world," he explained. "It
becomes much more athletic, more exciting, and you want to do that
with people who dance at your level." Good looks are no longer enough
to entice a man across the dance floor.
At a club once, Mr. Rapoport said, he had to vouch for a girlfriend's
competence as an "on 2" before one of his friends would dance with
her, "and she was very attractive!"
Despite the competition, there are mambo conciliators who say "on 1"
and "on 2" are like vanilla and chocolate ice cream, both delicious.
And, of course, dancers, can dance both styles. But "on 1" dancers who
learn to dance "on 2" usually become converts. Many say they find "on
2" more engaging, more challenging. Some call it more authentic.
"To dance on 2 is really going back to Africa because it's dancing to
the drums," said Neyda Martinez, 36, a publicist and arts consultant.
"To me, on the 1 is for only listening to the top layer of the music.
It's more melodic. But the dancing on the 2 is really on the African
beat."
But "on 1" dancers say they are just as hooked.
"The music on the 1 is very strong for me. You feel it more," said
Luis Vazquez, 28, a dance instructor in Los Angeles, who travels
internationally with his five-year-old performing group, Salsa Brava.
It is also less contrived, he contended. "Nobody can really hear the
2; somebody has to teach you to listen to the percussion. On 1 you
just hear the music, like when you clap, you start clapping on the 1."
Mr. Torres, having lived through the 1970's, when dancers abandoned
salsa for the hustle in droves, finds the new interest in salsa
gratifying. Mr. Torres and his wife and dance partner, Maria, now
teach about 600 students each week at their studios in Midtown and the
Bronx, six times as many as a decade ago.
Mr. Torres said that the main difference between the two styles is
that "on 1" dancing has a pause in the 4/4 time structure of the basic
salsa step that is absent when dancing on the 2. "Tito Puente didn't
recognize 'on 1' for the mambo," Mr. Torres, 50, said. "He used to
say, 'Who has seen music pause? The body shouldn't stop.' "
Mr. Torres, a New Yorker of Puerto Rican descent, said he "naturally
fell on the 2" when he started dancing as a young boy, and for years
he danced without paying attention to breaking down the steps, just as
many Latinos do.
"I'd be asked, do you dance on 2?" he recalled. "And I'd say, 'On two
feet?' "
Then, in 1977, a friend who taught ballroom dancing asked him to put a
count to the "street" version of the 2 that he grew up with, the New
York-style mambo, which is different from another "on 2" style that
had been taught in ballroom classes.
But Mr. Torres regrets that that technique has come at the expense of
some spontaneity. "The more technique, the more you leave the jungle,"
he said. "I used to do crazy things while dancing, and I'd ask myself,
'What got into me?' "
But for the salsa dancers who are trying to cope with the different
styles, it is a jungle out there.
At Nell's last week, Arthur Rutledge, who prefers the 2, was left to
do some steps on his own from the sidelines downstairs after being
turned down by a woman.
"I asked a lady to dance and she said no, and I don't know if it's
because she doesn't know how to dance or because she has a different
style," said Mr. Rutledge, 25, a model.
Leonardo Wignall, 60, a regular at Nell's and a Cuban who immigrated
in 1980, said the Afro-Cuban rhythms from which salsa derives have too
many elements to dance them any one way.
"If you listen to the orchestra, it tells you what to dance," he said.
But most dancers do not listen, he said. "The rhythm changes and they
keep dancing the same way."
Yet others say that many of today's dancers are missing the point.
Whatever happened to trying to adjust to each other's rhythm, to men
who strove to make the women feel good? asked Paul Pellicoro, owner of
DanceSport, near Lincoln Center.
"The object is to make your partner feel in heaven," he said. "Ask the
old-timers."
-Mike Doran
Abel
rhythm, the breaks, change up when they play caballo or when timba groups
open up for the tembleque. I guess I'll have to take a class someday to
figure this out.
Yambu <yam...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39b1d620...@news.earthlink.net...
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
>On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:34:05 GMT, luc...@ix.netcom.com (Edward-Yemíl
>Rosario) wrote:
>
>
>>Man, this so NOT what's happening in dance clubs!! Contrary to what the above
>>article may convey, NYC is not over run by a recent rash of bumped knees!!!
>>
>I thought you didn't go to dance clubs.
<snip>
Mike,
I normally DON'T go out dancing, but I get see more dancing at the venues I go
to (mostly for free!!) than most people see in a year. Also, ,most of the people
in my orbit are fanatical dancers and, being the inquisisitive mtoher fucker
that I am, I'm always "interviewing" people about the dance scene and what it
means to them (there's a book there somewhere). Finally, I showed the article to
many of my friends all who laughed at the bullshit assumptions in the article.
NO, NO ONE I know has ever had a beef with the "one" or "two" "paradgm." Most of
the dancers I have spoken to, grown up with, live with, observe and spoken to
don't even THINK in terms of the "one" or the "two." The artilce is pura caca,
Mike.
Felicidades,
Edward-Yemíl Rosario (Eddie)
"Sometimes being a bitch is all a woman has left to
hold on to."
-- Dolores Claiborne
Tom Ronquillo
> >On Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:34:05 GMT, luc...@ix.netcom.com (Edward-Yemíl
> >Rosario) wrote:
> NO, NO ONE I know has ever had a beef with the "one" or "two" "paradgm."
Tito Puente was reported to have interrupted the filming of one of the dance
scenes in "Mambo Kings" to correct some of the younger dancers who were
dancing "on one." Being a dancer of the old school, he knew how mambo was
supposed to be danced.
Many younger dancers today have not been taught the old way of dancing. It
reminds me of how some people can't tell the difference between forward and
reverse clave in the middle of a song.
Tom (El Tigre) Ronquillo
Gerry
Reed \"Califa\ <dmr...@dmreed.com> wrote:
> so "on the two" really means "on the 'and' of one"?
[snip]
> "Chris Smalt" <sm...@nedernet.nl> wrote in message
> news:B5D9E8D7...@i0585.vwr.wanadoo.nl... > Dennis wrote:
> >
> > >What the hell is the eighth beat? There are four beats in a
> > >measure of mambo!
> >
> > In American dance instruction, they group bars two by two for a
> > count of 8. The standard countoff is "Five-six-seven-eight".
If I understand this correctly, Dennis, he means the 2nd beat of 2 bars
of 4. So that would indeed by the two. I think your conclusion would
be treating one bar as 8 pulses (with "ands").
If I've misunderstood either view, a thousand pardons.
--
\\\---
tum...@telus.net
'one', you're 'stepping' on one and 'tapping' on four.
STEP step step TAP - STEP step step TAP
When you're dancing on 'two' you're actually 'tapping' on two, and
'stepping' on three.
step TAP STEP step - step TAP STEP step
this one certainly accent the 2/3-ness of your typical mambo, that's for
sure..
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
when I played congas for modern dance classes years ago.
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page http://dmreed.com features my musical autobiography with audio
recordings, photos of groups I have worked with from the late 50s to the
present, rare 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos Federico, 1970s photos of
Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo,and selected LP and CD recordings from my
Latin music collection of CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional
materials. Information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98)
and a large printable keyboard image is also included.
04/18/00 NEW PAGE: RumbaRama (http://dmreed.com/rumbarama.htm) which
contains audio links to rumba recordings on my site and to other links and
information.
"Gerry" <spe...@home.deletethis.com> wrote in message
news:050920000928485806%spe...@home.deletethis.com...
kaysee
desire to dance, a lot of the more serious "dance-oriented" people in the NY, Cali
and PR scene have a lot of angst about this 1 and 2 business. While as a dancer, I'm
basically just trying to follow the guy I'm dancing with, a lot of the attendees at
the congresso really were "casing the joint" to see if the people were dancing the
way they dance. And there is a lot of sneering out there against people who don't
dance the "right" way.
The article was also correct in suggesting that for such people, the looks of the
person is often secondary to whether or not he or she dances the "correct" style.
Also I attended a dance contest while in PR where the couples who exhibited what I
saw as solid, thorough partners dancing, the way I'd like to be able to dance, were
passed over for the flashier couples with lots of spins, turns and "shines". The
judges were NY dancers.
I don't doubt that for most people the 1 and 2 of it are not an issue. But I
wouldn't dismiss it as being foremost in thoughts of a very vocal minority.
kaysee
Edward-Yemíl Rosario wrote in message <39b4ef20...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
kaysee
tum...@telus.net wrote in message ...
>The way I understand it (or misunderstand it) is that when you dance on
>'one', you're 'stepping' on one and 'tapping' on four.
>
>STEP step step TAP - STEP step step TAP
This is what I saw at the congresso in July. It felt really weird at first to be
going 123TAP 567TAP.
>When you're dancing on 'two' you're actually 'tapping' on two, and
>'stepping' on three.
>
>step TAP STEP step - step TAP STEP step
And this is how I learned to dance. This would be 1 - 2&3 - 4&, with the pause or
kick on the 'and' of the downbeat.
>
>this one certainly accent the 2/3-ness of your typical mambo, that's for
>sure..
>
This is a pretty good description, Alan. Certainly better than many of the dance
teachers I've run into <g>.
kaysee
>
Nina
"kaysee" <KAYS...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Eddie, notwithstanding your friends, who are probably real "dancers"
with a simple
> desire to dance, a lot of the more serious "dance-oriented" people in
the NY, Cali
> and PR scene have a lot of angst about this 1 and 2 business. While
as a dancer, I'm
> basically just trying to follow the guy I'm dancing with, a lot of
the attendees at
> the congresso really were "casing the joint" to see if the people
were dancing the
> way they dance.
For me, that ruins the whole point of the dance. Sure, it is nice to
dance with a person who has a similar style, but my goal is to have a
good time and enjoy dancing. Other than my normal partner, I wont dance
with anyone who is an absolute idiot regarding stylistic preferences.
My job is not to be the puppet with which he plays, I like to be an
equal whose needs and tastes are considered EVEN if they are NOT the
same as his.
And there is a lot of sneering out there against people who don't
> dance the "right" way.
>
I avoid those people,but it does make finding a partner harder. As a
female, I belive that I should be able to follow the lead of my
partner, no matter what his style. I think it makes me a better dancer
if I can get out there, dance and have fun no matter what the style is.
And I dance with as many people as possible so that I am able to adapt
and adjust.
(Being so adaptable has its pitfalls too. I am accustomed to receiving
very light, subtle signals for turns, and sometimes I follow when I am
not being led. But i still prefer that to being PUSHED into a turn or
spin)
> Also I attended a dance contest while in PR where the couples who
exhibited what I
> saw as solid, thorough partners dancing, the way I'd like to be able
to dance, were
> passed over for the flashier couples with lots of spins, turns
and "shines". The
> judges were NY dancers.
We have touched on this before, I find that Colombians and Venezuelans
have a very nice smooth style, very pleasant for the woman. Sometimes
dancing with PR's and NYRicans you can almost hear them saying "Who's
Your Daddy??!!!" as they mercilessly spin, twist, turn and loop your
body around theirs. Some men refuse believe it,but it isnt neccessarily
a good thing toleave the woman panting and dizzy.
>
> I don't doubt that for most people the 1 and 2 of it are not an
issue. But I
> wouldn't dismiss it as being foremost in thoughts of a very vocal
minority.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
kaysee
Nina wrote in message <8p8909$le3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Some men refuse believe it,but it isnt neccessarily
>a good thing toleave the woman panting and dizzy.
>
Now if it is because they are so fine and sexy, and have such smooth and subtle body
action, that's all right. As a woman I must admit I don't mind panting and dizziness
in a good cause.
But I'm not too keen on leaving the dance floor in this state every single time. . .
.
kaysee
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
>Eddie, notwithstanding your friends, who are probably real "dancers" with a simple
>desire to dance, a lot of the more serious "dance-oriented" people in the NY, Cali
>and PR scene have a lot of angst about this 1 and 2 business. While as a dancer, I'm
>basically just trying to follow the guy I'm dancing with, a lot of the attendees at
>the congresso really were "casing the joint" to see if the people were dancing the
>way they dance. And there is a lot of sneering out there against people who don't
>dance the "right" way.
<snip>
NYC is a lot different from other places, Kase, and even those who wouldn't
even think twice about the one or two, really don't have "formal" training. I'm
sorry, one of the girls I showed this to, is a GREAT dancer. She laughs at those
who are taught in schools because they always LOOK like they learned in schools.
A lot of what goes down in NYC is from the street, or passed down. NO ONE,
except for a couple of dinosaurs, really dances in the "old style." At least not
too many.
Add to this tthat the many different nationalities have distinct ways of dancing
and their own little culture revolving around these idiosyncracies. For example,
you can tell a dominican from a nuyorican because there's a whole different
approach to the form. The same could be said for Colombians and the whole NYC
latino/a kit and kaboodle. There's no "right" way to dance the music, only mebbe
older forms and newer forms that, in turn, are INformed by urban factors. For
example, I always marvel at the way NYC Dominican women dance merengue:
definitley not the "right" (traditional) way, but a mixture of urban freestyle
and tradittional stylings. You mention PR, but that's a very different subset of
PR culture. PRs in NYC have different attittudes about the music and the dancing
that accompanies this. In fact, Nuyoricans were a lot quicker to embrace the
music of dark-skinned PRs than our counterparts on the island. There were
manyreasons for this, but that would entail a tangential post.
The article doesn't paint a true picture of the NYC scene in the least.
>The article was also correct in suggesting that for such people, the looks of the
>person is often secondary to whether or not he or she dances the "correct" style.
>Also I attended a dance contest while in PR where the couples who exhibited what I
>saw as solid, thorough partners dancing, the way I'd like to be able to dance, were
>passed over for the flashier couples with lots of spins, turns and "shines". The
>judges were NY dancers.
<snip>
A dance contest and the form of dancing it invloves is VERY DIFFERWENT from what
goes on on the dance floors, Kase. Go to any night club in NYC and there's no
rash of knee injuries due to the one or two thing. I think it has mostly to do
with Eddie Torres and his drumming up some business. This is a made up -- a
constructed -- problem, for all intents and purposes.
>I don't doubt that for most people the 1 and 2 of it are not an issue. But I
>wouldn't dismiss it as being foremost in thoughts of a very vocal minority.
<snip>
Which is my point. One would think this is a major problem after reading the
article (which was placed on the FRONT PAGE?!?!). Some of the best dancers, some
who have NEVER seen the inside of Eddie Torres' (or any other) studio, dance
here in NYC. And whenever I interview them (via a structured qualitative
methodology called Grounded Theory) this is never an issue.
Edward-Yemíl Rosario (Eddie)
http://www.acorn.org/
http://www.workingfamiliesparty.org
"To be truly radical, one must make hope
possible, rather than despair convincing."
- Raymond Williams
César N. Díaz
>That's wild. I have no idea what the 1 and 2 are, I just try to follow the
>rhythm, the breaks, change up when they play caballo or when timba groups
>open up for the tembleque. I guess I'll have to take a class someday to
>figure this out.
I'm with you bro. I used to work at a bank, counting all frigging
day! Do I want to go to a dance hall to count? Don't think so.
Is there an instructional video that shows the differences between the
two styles? Right now, I don't know what I'm doing when I'm dancing.
That's probably why I don't get asked to dance much.
PS. Could this be the reason why people go for merengue? You know:
1-2, 1-2, 1-2,......
César N. Díaz
Rosario) wrote:
>
>Man, this so NOT what's happening in dance clubs!! Contrary to what the above
>article may convey, NYC is not over run by a recent rash of bumped knees!!!
>
Will there be a market for Salsa knee-pads? Two styles available: the
"on one" style and the "on two" style.
César N. Díaz
<KAYS...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Nina wrote in message <8p8909$le3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Some men refuse believe it,but it isnt neccessarily
>>a good thing toleave the woman panting and dizzy.
>>
>
>Now if it is because they are so fine and sexy, and have such smooth and subtle body
>action, that's all right. As a woman I must admit I don't mind panting and dizziness
>in a good cause.
>
>But I'm not too keen on leaving the dance floor in this state every single time. . .
>.
>
Which brings me to the question about turning and spinning: when is
enough, enough?
'Now what? I'm thinking of going to check Krosfyah at SOB's tonight.
Krosfyah is a West Indian band that plays SOCA. I can assure you that
there's no 1-2 problem there. No turns either. Band starts at 11.
kaysee
this is actually an on topic discussion . . . . .
<g>
kaysee
César N. Díaz wrote in message <39b96b1d...@news-server.si.rr.com>...
tum...@telus.net
two (mambo-style), but when it comes to playing and singing, I have to dance
'on the one', because the 'tap' lines up with the bass tumbao on four. When
I'm singing a rhythm that's really different than what I am playing, it's
the dancing that allows me to play both parts with out thinking. It
distracts me from concentrating on one rhythm or the other.
Chris Smalt wrote in message ...
>Tumbao wrote:
>
>>STEP step step TAP - STEP step step TAP
>
>That is the basic "on the one" step as taught by many Cuban teachers.
>However, worldwide, the most used basic is a "tapless" one:
>
>Step step step rest - step step step rest
>
>Stepping direction may vary, and the pattern can start on any of the four
>beats in a bar. In practice, many people start on the one or three.
>Starting on two is how it used to be done in Cuban son and New York
>"mambo".
>
>
>>step TAP STEP step - step TAP STEP step
>
>This is the Cuban basic starting on three.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
kaysee
Chris Smalt wrote in message ...
>
>Step step step rest - step step step rest
>
>Stepping direction may vary, and the pattern can start on any of the four
>beats in a bar. In practice, many people start on the one or three.
>Starting on two is how it used to be done in Cuban son and New York
>"mambo".
So in "on 2" dancing, the rest or the TAP actually would fall on the one count of the
measure? As in
rest 234 rest 678 or TAP Step step step TAP Step step step ?
kaysee
>
>
>>step TAP STEP step - step TAP STEP step
>
kaysee
and they were amazed (but not awed) by the turns and etc. they encountered at the
congresso. I probably learned as much from them about what they termed "social
dancing" (which IMO seems to be a more realistic way of looking at the form) as I
learned from the many dance instructors who were there. I learned a lot just from
watching the way they moved together.
On your comments, the "on 1" and "on 2" people are probably sitting in some dark club
right now sneering at the other dancers who are having a good time, instead of
worrying about the one or the two. There is such a thing as being too worried about
looks <g>.
kaysee
Edward-Yemíl Rosario wrote in message <39b8c6ba...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
about 9 years ago. we danced close together even on fast tunes with full
stops/hesitations and turns in both directions (because I don't feel
comfortable when dancing apart) and several older folks sitting at a nearby
table gave us a Ok sign! most everybody else was dancing separately. IMHO
there is a soft and gentle beauty when a couple dances close together
(besides I like being close to my dance partner!). this is the way I have
always danced.
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page http://dmreed.com features my musical autobiography with audio
recordings, photos of groups I have worked with from the late 50s to the
present, rare 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos Federico, 1970s photos of
Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo,and selected LP and CD recordings from my
Latin music collection of CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional
materials. Information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98)
and a large printable keyboard image is also included.
04/18/00 NEW PAGE: RumbaRama (http://dmreed.com/rumbarama.htm) which
contains audio links to rumba recordings on my site and to other links and
information.
"kaysee" <KAYS...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:A3gu5.9842$nq4.1...@news-east.usenetserver.com...
MS
"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@dmreed.com> wrote in message
news:zWVs5.51172$xg1.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> so "on the two" really means "on the 'and' of one"?
That would be a very difficult way to dance!! No, it means starting the
dance pattern on the second beat rather than the first. But as I said, I've
seen people say they are doing that, and on watching their feet, one sees
that they aren't. Most non-musicians don't know where the beats of the
measure are. So, a lot of the "on 2" talk is BS, from what I've seen.
MS
> So in "on 2" dancing, the rest or the TAP actually would fall on the one
count of the
> measure? As in
>
> rest 234 rest 678 or TAP Step step step TAP Step step step ?
>
> kaysee
Correct. The first step is then synchronous with the first clave stroke (if
2/3 clave). The steps are on 2,3,4, rather than 1,2,3.
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
>I spoke with a NY couple who were originally young when the mambo was originally hot,
>and they were amazed (but not awed) by the turns and etc. they encountered at the
>congresso. I probably learned as much from them about what they termed "social
>dancing" (which IMO seems to be a more realistic way of looking at the form) as I
>learned from the many dance instructors who were there. I learned a lot just from
>watching the way they moved together.
<snip>
There's a rumor going around that in my younger days, I axctually made women cry
I danced so well. It's a rumor (or I was walking through a prolonged
_blackout_). Anyway, I pride my self in being an astute observer of human
interactions and what I've learned is taht you should take ANYTHING the NY Times
says about PRs or Latina/o culuture in general with a grain of salt.
And what you state above is true: there are different ways of learning to dance
and learning to dance within the Latina/o cultural context is... different, to
say the least.
Take for example, the plight of the male dancer: how does HE get to learn? I
mean, what with the leading and stuff. women will dance with each other that' s
cool, but men... well MOST men don't take to dancing together in public. So, who
do we learn from?
As for learning to dance, I guess if you're not in an area where there are a lot
of "salsa" dancers, then a school or formal instructor would be the way to go.
Some people become very good learing at these schools. Yet, whenever I look at
dancers, I can almost always tell who learned informally or not. Some formally
trained dnacers are too...technical-looking, for lack of a better phrase. It
reminds me of a lady friend of mine who complained about a lover. He was really
good at the oral thingee, but to her it alwyas seemed "as if he read it in a
chapter of some self-help book." I think what my candid frioend was trying to
say that there was an undertow of spontenieity missing in his "articulations."
Everything was down pat, but it was too down pat.
That's how I feel about many of the Cuban musicians, BTW.
Anyway, it's within the context of freindship and camraderie that good dancing
comes about, IMO. One girl, who learned formally, eventually settled in with a
group of girls and they helped her in the sense that they gave her gentle
(sometimes playfully teasing) constructive criticsm. Today, I can't tell iwhere
she learned, but there's a lot of joy in her hips these days <grin>.
That's why I think this "one" or "Two" thing is overplayed on the internet and
in mainstream corporate papers like the Times: they just don't have their ears
to the ground when it comes to this. At least that's my take...
Edward-Yemíl Rosario (Eddie)
Jibaro Scientific Axiom:
A pound of shit
Weighs more than a hundred pounds of coffee.
-Victor Hernandez-Cruz
Tom Ronquillo
"Edward-Yemíl Rosario" <luc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote ... the plight of the
male dancer: how does HE get to learn? I
> mean, what with the leading and stuff. women will dance with each other
that' s
> cool, but men... well MOST men don't take to dancing together in public.
So, who
> do we learn from?
In the old days (I'm 50) there were more neighborhood social dances attended
by all age groups (grandparents, parents and kids) where we learned from an
early age by watching others dance. Girls practiced with each other at
home. Mothers and sisters taught the boys.
No one learned from professional dance teachers at Arthur Murray-type
studios. No one could afford it, and what they were teaching was a ballroom
dancer's notion of latin dance anyway. Totally ridiculous.
Practically everyone knew how to dance years ago. It was a necessary social
skill and very much a part of the mating ritual. No dance, no girl.
Tom (El Tigre) Ronquillo
Santa Salsera
> There's a rumor going around that in my younger days, I axctually made women cry
> I danced so well.
I'm sure you made women cry, all right. ;-) Just kidding, Eddie, no ill will is intended.
You really should've learned salsa.
> It's a rumor (or I was walking through a prolonged
> _blackout_). Anyway, I pride my self in being an astute observer of human
> interactions and what I've learned is taht you should take ANYTHING the NY Times
> says about PRs or Latina/o culuture in general with a grain of salt.
>
> And what you state above is true: there are different ways of learning to dance
> and learning to dance within the Latina/o cultural context is... different, to
> say the least.
>
> Take for example, the plight of the male dancer: how does HE get to learn? I
> mean, what with the leading and stuff. women will dance with each other that' s
> cool,
Actually, I think for women, it's akin to sitting too close to the men's room. It's almost
like man repellent. It can be bane to the male ego to be shown to be superfluous in this
area (like certain others). Oh, and unless SHE knows how to lead (which IS cool!) it's not
really the same. It does help though to have a girl show you her step all up close and
personal. I can remember that making a difference for me.
> but men... well MOST men don't take to dancing together in public. So, who
> do we learn from?
Tom mentioned social events, and let's not forget the virtue of coming from large
families--built-in playmates (and dance partners). It was true in my father's day, and
more recently I've seen brother/sister combinations win dance contests. Guys tell me they
learn from women (mothers, prostitutes!) and also practice secretly with
contraptions--brooms, sweaters tied to doorknobs, etc. A gringo college student I know
learned very respectable skillz from living in a Latin fraternity. (Nice work, fellas!) As
far as females teaching a guy, the easiest (and one of the most pleasant) is probably
bachata. You can kinda lead without it being too obtrusive. Right now I'm working on my
"leading" skills, so that I can more effectively teach it to men, as well as serve as
butch for my femme for those dry spells.
> As for learning to dance, I guess if you're not in an area where there are a lot
> of "salsa" dancers, then a school or formal instructor would be the way to go.
Hm; but what would be the point? I mean, you've got to dance with somebody. I guess you
could travel. Or recruit all your friends to take lessons as well.
> Some people become very good learing at these schools.
Obsessed, even.
> Yet, whenever I look at
> dancers, I can almost always tell who learned informally or not.
I agree, but if not then, almost certainly by the time that you dance with them.
Sometimes, you can tell just based on certain turn combinations they use. It is usually
quite serviceable, but sometime they get rattled if you didn't learn exactly the same
ones, in exactly the same way. The problem with school is it truly can give the impression
to students that there is one "right" way to dance something, and they sometimes become
quite invested in this notion (understandably--having invested, literally, a lot of time
and money in the concept).
> Some formally
> trained dnacers are too...technical-looking, for lack of a better phrase.
And technical feeling. The best example of this is the awkward, back-and-forth hip
movement. You know what I mean; when the hip literally juts out side to side, without a
natural fluidity or transfer of the weight, and creating a really nasty looking line. It's
hard to explain, and even harder to get that little magic-figure-8 bike ride in your
stride. The problem seems to be that someone told these poor folks to move their hips, but
without really integrating this into the whole picture--the shifting of weight, momentum,
etc. It's really hard to dance merengue and get into the "swing" with some of the formally
trained for this reason. Unless you get into the same hip groove, you can't get any of
that centrifugal force that makes merengue so much fun. With salsa, the hallmark is the
"steppers"--people who think it's really, literally, primarily about stepping up and
stepping back! They move the whole center of gravity in bunny hops, and it just looks (and
feels) wrong. More hokey pokey than salsa. Though really, it's more like, "you put your
left hip in, you take your left hip out..." I think it points to a problem in general
that dance is taught in terms of moving itemized parts, to the detriment of how it's
supposed to *feel*, and where the movement really comes from. Non-formally trained dancers
will often express these things in more instructive ways, if pushed to consciously
formulate it. Dancing is more than steps, or even a set of instructions!
> It
> reminds me of a lady friend of mine who complained about a lover. He was really
> good at the oral thingee, but to her it alwyas seemed "as if he read it in a
> chapter of some self-help book." I think what my candid frioend was trying to
> say that there was an undertow of spontenieity missing in his "articulations."
> Everything was down pat, but it was too down pat.
That just reminded me in the funniest way of a guy I used to know. Named Pat...
> That's how I feel about many of the Cuban musicians, BTW.
>
> Anyway, it's within the context of freindship and camraderie that good dancing
> comes about, IMO.
I agree that it's the most priceless element. Somebody put it well--was it Yambu?--that
back in "the day," the idea wasn't to get competitive and snooty about breaking on ones or
twos, but to make her feel like she's in heaven. It doesn't have to be literal seduction,
but this social element of courtesy at least should be respected, it's part of the beauty
of the thing. And yeah, camaraderie and friendship are great, but I'll add that in
addition, courteous, respectful strangers can be some of your best teachers. They have
been mine.
> One girl, who learned formally, eventually settled in with a
> group of girls and they helped her in the sense that they gave her gentle
> (sometimes playfully teasing) constructive criticsm.
That's good!
> Today, I can't tell iwhere
> she learned, but there's a lot of joy in her hips these days <grin>.
As it should be.
> That's why I think this "one" or "Two" thing is overplayed on the internet and
> in mainstream corporate papers like the Times: they just don't have their ears
> to the ground when it comes to this. At least that's my take...
> Edward-Yemíl Rosario (Eddie)
I think they do in so far as the dance school and competition trend (frenzy?) is certainly
rising, and thus, unfortunately, the wrong attitudes do get out there about what salsa is
(and I don't mean steps, I mean the essence of the interaction). Who the hell cares how
many types of salsa /mambo/ timba /et al. are out there, it's like having more flavors of
ice cream. I am hungry to learn other styles I'm not as familiar with, and don't feel the
ways I'm more comfortable with just happen to be the best or most correct. I honor the
different styles, but to me what they do (or should) have in common is a sense of
courtesy, partnership, etc. that is somehow vital to that communication thingie that
happens out there on the dancefloor. That, too, is more than just steps.
-Sta. Salsera
Santa Salsera
> "Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@dmreed.com> wrote in message
> news:zWVs5.51172$xg1.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> > so "on the two" really means "on the 'and' of one"?
>
> That would be a very difficult way to dance!! No, it means starting the
> dance pattern on the second beat rather than the first. But as I said, I've
> seen people say they are doing that, and on watching their feet, one sees
> that they aren't. Most non-musicians don't know where the beats of the
> measure are.
I think most school children can feel a natural downbeat.
> So, a lot of the "on 2" talk is BS, from what I've seen.
Probably. The whole mindset is bullshit, that's for sure. "Street" dancers are
usually more fun anyday, hands down.
One thing I haven't figured out is how the hell that Torres guy dances, like,
on what beats; I watched one video, and it didn't look like salsa at all. There
WAS no pause/break. It was almost like they were, actually, literally, dancing
ON clave.
-Fab
Santa Salsera
> I spoke with a NY couple who were originally young when the mambo was originally hot,
> and they were amazed (but not awed) by the turns and etc. they encountered at the
> congresso. I probably learned as much from them about what they termed "social
> dancing" (which IMO seems to be a more realistic way of looking at the form)
I think it's important this not get totally eroded. It's part of the soul of the
tradition.
> as I
> learned from the many dance instructors who were there. I learned a lot just from
> watching the way they moved together.
>
> On your comments, the "on 1" and "on 2" people are probably sitting in some dark club
> right now sneering at the other dancers who are having a good time, instead of
> worrying about the one or the two. There is such a thing as being too worried about
> looks <g>.
Yeah. I mean really. I almost couldn't believe the implication of that NYTimes story that
one somehow SHOULD revert to choosing partners based primarily on their GOOD LOOKS--oh,
brother. It can be equally dehumanizing to be a step-nazi, but at least people (including
women) are getting out there because they know what they want, and it isn't SEX (or isn't
just, or primarily, sex). I seriously doubt a drop-dead model would be taking home a
seriously ugly troll with a wicked ass break-on-two, when she could just take his number
and make dance dates with him instead. Not that there's anything wrong with that (either
one).
-Fab
Santa Salsera
-Fab
Santa Salsera
three," because they (Cuban-style?) are counting the "tap" (pause) as the first
move, on the two. And the "on one" types are "tapping" on the four, and hence
starting to move on the one, when they start their count. This might explain
why the two styles are that much harder to "see" in clubs, as evidenced by
testimonies here and, frankly, myself. I haven't had any knee bumps, either.
But you often see different couples dancing on different halves of the bar--I
don't presume that it is always by design, however.
Note: this presumes that the Cuban-style he describes is the same as the New
York mambo style--so I'm open to a possible misperception here.
-Fab
Santa Salsera
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:35:26 -0400, "kaysee" <KAYS...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Eddie, notwithstanding your friends, who are probably real "dancers" with a simple
> >desire to dance, a lot of the more serious "dance-oriented" people in the NY, Cali
> >and PR scene have a lot of angst about this 1 and 2 business.
Ah, yes. The "serious" people. One can be dance-oriented to a fault. I think the most
serious dance-oriented people, to me, are those with a "simple desire to dance." It comes
from the inside, ultimately, then you learn to wear these habits of movement and instincts
in your body; it does not really come from external authorities like videos, and
workshops, and all that. People like to make a thing more complicated than it needs to be
sometimes to make the thing seem...I don't know...better organized? More easily accessible
for assimilation and mastery? Making sure you have the "right" way (when there really
isn't one) is another way of adding fake texture to life, IMO, when a "simple desire" can
be ultimately a more rich and textured way to experience something.
> While as a dancer, I'm
> >basically just trying to follow the guy I'm dancing with, a lot of the attendees at
> >the congresso really were "casing the joint" to see if the people were dancing the
> >way they dance. And there is a lot of sneering out there against people who don't
> >dance the "right" way.
> <snip>
I am sure THAT is true. So, I get what you're getting at. That "scene" is very real.
> NYC is a lot different from other places, Kase, and even those who wouldn't
> even think twice about the one or two, really don't have "formal" training. I'm
> sorry, one of the girls I showed this to, is a GREAT dancer. She laughs at those
> who are taught in schools because they always LOOK like they learned in schools.
Yes; and they have names for moves. When you get to that level of analysis, it becomes
more like an Olympic event than an act of sensual learning. I mean, nothing against
engaging the cognitive level in the learning process, but for me, that's not where it's at
with the whole joy of dance. Speaking as an overly cognitive person, at least as far as
the patterns of learning that tend to dominate my time, learning in a different way is,
I'm sure, not only the ONLY way I would be able to do this, but a pure joy, partly for the
counterpoint it provides.
> A lot of what goes down in NYC is from the street, or passed down. NO ONE,
> except for a couple of dinosaurs, really dances in the "old style." At least not
> too many.
Yeah, really. I mean, it's sort of the like the 'salsa is dead' mantra, there's a lesson
to be had there, but that said, who says that a tradition has to stay the same (i.e.,
stagnate) in order to stay alive? It could be argued that the very opposite (change,
incorporation, passing down) constitutes true vitality. It's Eddie Torres propaganda that
we've all got to dance mambo like in Palladium days for it to have legitimacy. (And
"mambo"? like please, hello! everybody and their primo has gotten their hands on that
word, I don't think it contains the essence of the one culturally true way, at least not
anymore. I'm speaking of the Lou Begas of the world, and not in any way maligning the
wonderful MAMBO in its historically true sense. But it is, for the most part, historic at
this point, unless I missed something. The counts may be the same, but the movements of
the body and the limbs, the weight distribution, etc. are pretty different from salsa,
from what I've seen. Viva la mambo, but it ain't the same as salsa. In other words, salsa
is not a mere cultural transcription, it's an evolution.)
> Add to this tthat the many different nationalities have distinct ways of dancing
> and their own little culture revolving around these idiosyncracies. For example,
> you can tell a dominican from a nuyorican because there's a whole different
> approach to the form. The same could be said for Colombians and the whole NYC
> latino/a kit and kaboodle.
Yes. To me it's part of what is still interesting about the form; you can always learn a
different nuance from someone else's homeschooling. If you could learn it all in school
once, the right way, and be done with it, it would be a pretty frickin boring hobby, for
big-time nerds only.
> There's no "right" way to dance the music, only mebbe
> older forms and newer forms that, in turn, are INformed by urban factors.
YES! This is to see salsa dancing as part of a CULTURE, not a curriculm. A living culture,
I might add. God, would any of us do it if it weren't? You could just as well collect
postage stamps and take vigorous constitutionals.
> For
> example, I always marvel at the way NYC Dominican women dance merengue:
> definitley not the "right" (traditional) way, but a mixture of urban freestyle
> and tradittional stylings. You mention PR, but that's a very different subset of
> PR culture. PRs in NYC have different attittudes about the music and the dancing
> that accompanies this. In fact, Nuyoricans were a lot quicker to embrace the
> music of dark-skinned PRs than our counterparts on the island. There were
> manyreasons for this, but that would entail a tangential post.
>
> The article doesn't paint a true picture of the NYC scene in the least.
I'm sure that's true. I think it does probably portray the trendy subculture that has
mushroomed out of it (or into it?) in recent years, though.
> >The article was also correct in suggesting that for such people, the looks of the
> >person is often secondary to whether or not he or she dances the "correct" style.
Gosh, and they said that as if the natural hierarchy of the pickup scene had been upset!
(lol)
> >Also I attended a dance contest while in PR where the couples who exhibited what I
> >saw as solid, thorough partners dancing, the way I'd like to be able to dance, were
> >passed over for the flashier couples with lots of spins, turns and "shines". The
> >judges were NY dancers.
I've seen it here too and I hate that. A couple that imports a lot of swing moves that
have nothin to do with salsa and didn't get there through any authentic cultural avenue
(but via a professional dance school), win over a couple that's a lot more integrated,
that has a lot better communication, and a lot of flashy but traditionally 'salsa' moves.
One reason I don't like this competition business, it's kind of like dog and cat breeding;
you end up with a lot of novelty features that become heightened, totally arbitrary marks
of the breed, often at the expense of natural functionality. (You know that sunken nose on
Persian cats? It's actually a genetic defect, not present in the first Persians, but
through inbreeding it became part of the official breed profile. It makes it damn hard for
the animals to aspirate through their little stunted snotnoses, poor kitty.)
> <snip>
>
> A dance contest and the form of dancing it invloves is VERY DIFFERWENT from what
> goes on on the dance floors, Kase.
yah.
> Go to any night club in NYC and there's no
> rash of knee injuries due to the one or two thing. I think it has mostly to do
> with Eddie Torres and his drumming up some business. This is a made up -- a
> constructed -- problem, for all intents and purposes.
Right--it doesn't hurt his business to drum up a lot of public anxiety about what is the
"right" way to dance. The only questionable reaction is assuming that the for-pay dance
professionals have all the "right" answers. Part of that whole instructional
anxiety/legitimation mechanism. And of course, that illusion is fostered by reporters
since one of the few *fixed* institutions they can resort to for information on a living
tradition is a self-ascribed dance school.
> >I don't doubt that for most people the 1 and 2 of it are not an issue. But I
> >wouldn't dismiss it as being foremost in thoughts of a very vocal minority.
> <snip>
>
> Which is my point. One would think this is a major problem after reading the
> article (which was placed on the FRONT PAGE?!?!). Some of the best dancers, some
> who have NEVER seen the inside of Eddie Torres' (or any other) studio, dance
> here in NYC. And whenever I interview them (via a structured qualitative
> methodology called Grounded Theory) this is never an issue.
What are their issues? Just curious. What did you interview them about?
-Sta. Salsera
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
news:39BD5E2C...@nospampicadillo.com...
> Actually, I think for women, it's akin to sitting too close to the men's
huh? you mean you can see that there are no lines and that men usually go
into the restroom alone, i.e., with out taking a partner like the women
usually do?
BillBDC
>
> Cuban danz-n includes a step with a deliberate (delicate) knee-bump on the
> fourth beat.
>
Could you describe that a little more, e.g, the other steps and the
overall choreography, etc.of the danzo'n in Cuba? I was just on vacation in
Mexico last month and took some time to look at danzo'n there. (I saw the
Mexican movie of the same name and got intrigued by the music and dance). I
don't think I saw anything like that in Mexico, but dances often change a
lot when they move from one country to another.
--Bill
Washington, D.C.
kaysee
Santa Salsera wrote in message <39BD5E2C...@nospampicadillo.com>...
>
>I think they do in so far as the dance school and competition trend (frenzy?) is
certainly
>rising, and thus, unfortunately, the wrong attitudes do get out there about what
salsa is
>(and I don't mean steps, I mean the essence of the interaction). Who the hell cares
how
>many types of salsa /mambo/ timba /et al. are out there, it's like having more
flavors of
>ice cream. I am hungry to learn other styles I'm not as familiar with, and don't
feel the
>ways I'm more comfortable with just happen to be the best or most correct. I honor
the
>different styles, but to me what they do (or should) have in common is a sense of
>courtesy, partnership, etc. that is somehow vital to that communication thingie that
>happens out there on the dancefloor. That, too, is more than just steps.
This element is what I found most lacking in the participants and organizers of the
congresso I recently attended. It seemed to me that consistently there was a serious
lack of courtesy between dancers, especially those outside the "clique", or as I have
suggested before, those who "don't dance on two like we do". A friend of mine had a
guy from LA tell her after a single dance "you dance pretty good for a girl from
Texas"! And he was serious, not joking! It was as if they were competing against
each other, rather than dancing together. That sense of courtesy is often lost in
the gloaming when dancers are more concerned about whether styles mesh and how it
"looks" than they are about the feelings and reactions of their partners.
kaysee
>
>-Sta. Salsera
>
kaysee
become secondary to a really good dance partner: "oh, he's a slob, and makes no
effort to get a job, but he can dance on two like nobody's business" . . ..
Additionally, I know a couple (she of the Dominican Republic, he of Switzerland) who
met, married and mated on the basis of their salsa dancing. And they were HOT!
Apparently this is not at all unusual in England and other parts of Europe.
kaysee
Santa Salsera wrote in message <39BD608F...@nospampicadillo.com>...
kaysee
laugh value <g>. Here's my favorite part:
"In fact, when we initially learn any part of this dance, whether it is the basic
step or shines, or more advanced turn patterns, we do not even play the music at all.
Instead, we count out loud "1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7" while learning to place our feet or
hands in the proper positions. In order to really understand the feeling of the
clave and conga rhythms when dancing ON 2, one usually must FIRST be an intermediate
or advanced ON 2 dancer. And that means that one must have mastered the footwork,
timing, partnerwork and open shines to the extent that they are automatic, and that
they feel like the only natural way to move to this music. I highly recommend the
Eddie Torres Training Videos in order to learn the correct fundamental and
intermediate skills."
Again, this seems really backward to me, perhaps because I came to the dancing
through the music, rather than the converse. I've found that hearing the song,
seeing the pattern, then emulating it, works for me. But I suppose if you can't even
find the 1 beat in the song, it may be easier to go the other way . . . .
And reading this, it sounds a WHOLE lot like starting on three to me . .. I'd prolly
have to see those videos to be able to see this action .. . . .
Thanks for the links, Chris.
kaysee
Chris Smalt wrote in message ...
>Fab wrote:
>
>>One thing I haven't figured out is how the hell that Torres guy dances, like,
>>on what beats
>
>
>Do you mean this: http://www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm#Basic_Step
>?
>
>BTW, the page with diagrams and animations that I referred to earlier in
>this thread is here: http://salsafreak.com/stories/steps.htm As usual,
>some of it was written with only partial understanding of the matters at
>hand, but the diagrams are OK.
>
>
>>I think most school children can feel a natural downbeat.
>
>True, but can grown-ups?
>
>
> Chris
>
>
Nina
This seems so typically American to me. We dont seem to understand the
WHY of things and go about learning in an assbackward manner. For
example,the American approach to learning a language- Get some books,
figure out the rules, go to a foregin country and complain bitterly
when the spoken language doesnt conform to the written standard.
Just as writing was developed to preserve and share SPOKEN
language,dance was developed FROM (or at least with) the music.
A jazz artist, I can never remember who, once said that the greatest
loss for jazz was when it ceased to be a music to dance to. Both the
dance and the music decline when that creative synergy is lost. Look at
what is happening to salsa now. I still maintain that I canhear clave
in anything, but I cannot deny that some of the salsa out there just
aint danceable. And why should it be if it is being used as background
music rather than a guide?
When I began to dance I NEVER looked at other people dancing. I suppose
I am the exception. I just got out there and followed my partner and
learned by feeling and hearing. I sucked bigtime at first but quicky
grew better. And even now, as I continue to dance I find myself
developing new skills and techniques. You learn when to break,or to
turn or to glide by experimenting, by taking chances and daring to get
on the floor and make mistakes. I dont think I have a lot of technical
expertise, I dont know the names of anything, I couldnt give written
instructions on Salsa Dancing.
No one has ever told me I am a good dancer, or a great dancer. The
complements that I get are always that I dance beautifully, that I am a
joy to watch. I think I would rather dance beautifully than
dance "well". My favorite remark was "you dance so, so, Its just so
smooth". I think thats a function of dancing with the music and being
attuned toit instead of forcing moves and putting your body thru the
paces like a gymnast doing the floor exercise.
Nina
>
> And reading this, it sounds a WHOLE lot like starting on three to
me . .. I'd prolly
> have to see those videos to be able to see this action .. . . .
>
> Thanks for the links, Chris.
>
> kaysee
> Chris Smalt wrote in message ...
> >Fab wrote:
> >
> >>One thing I haven't figured out is how the hell that Torres guy
dances, like,
> >>on what beats
> >
> >
> >Do you mean this:
http://www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm#Basic_Step
> >?
> >
> >BTW, the page with diagrams and animations that I referred to
earlier in
> >this thread is here: http://salsafreak.com/stories/steps.htm As
usual,
> >some of it was written with only partial understanding of the
matters at
> >hand, but the diagrams are OK.
> >
> >
> >>I think most school children can feel a natural downbeat.
> >
> >True, but can grown-ups?
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
>
Santa Salsera
I don't think this needs to be labelled as typically American. I think
street salsa is "typically American," so is hiphop. The most American
cultural manifestations emphasize improvisation and the passing on of
tradition in non-academic settings. America is profoundly anti-cognitive
and anti-academic, or anti-analytical if you will, this approach (to break
down everything mercilessly into abstractions) seems more typically German
than American to me, by contrast.
> We dont seem to understand the
> WHY of things and go about learning in an assbackward manner. For
> example,the American approach to learning a language- Get some books,
> figure out the rules, go to a foregin country and complain bitterly
> when the spoken language doesnt conform to the written standard.
Americans hate learning languages from books in the first place. Rather
than study grammar rules most adults think the only way they can
comfortably learn to become functionally communicative is through forced
immersion. In a way, this stereotyped 'lazy' American has the right idea.
Even the pedagogy of language learning has changed in the past decade to
emphasize context and culture over pure grammatical structure. I think
dance training in general is more conservative in this way and still has
something spartan and stoic about it, and this "you must discipline the
body above all" idea reflects that. What they need is a new dance pedagogy
emphasizing the importance of that cultural context to learning. Learn to
dance WITHOUT MUSIC? Blasphemy. Depending on your point of view. I think
it's quite common for trained dancers to work this way. It's almost like
they use the music as a bon bon to reward discipline. But that's a
proficiency ethic, it leaves too much behind. One can learn grammar only to
be an asshole in a whole new language.
> Just as writing was developed to preserve and share SPOKEN
> language,dance was developed FROM (or at least with) the music.
You were there?! *g*
I certainly agree, as would most Latinos who learned "from home," it's
nonsensical, almost sacrilegious, to learn this stuff without the music. I
would almost say pointless. Use any music, use R&B, but for goodness sake,
never practice steps without music! The worst habit to get into is not
listening. At the very least play some music in your head.
> A jazz artist, I can never remember who, once said that the greatest
> loss for jazz was when it ceased to be a music to dance to. Both the
> dance and the music decline when that creative synergy is lost. Look at
> what is happening to salsa now. I still maintain that I canhear clave
> in anything, but I cannot deny that some of the salsa out there just
> aint danceable.
What do you mean? One can argue about the quality, but I'm not sure what
you mean by not danceable.
> And why should it be if it is being used as background
> music rather than a guide?
Guide? It's the third partner. The Holy Ghost.
-Sta. Salsera
Santa Salsera
sit too close to the door to the men's room, it's like you become invisible.
They don't see you, because they are too intent on going about the whole
turf-marking thing.
-Fab
Nina
Santa Salsera <sal...@nospampicadillo.com> wrote:
> Nina wrote:
>
> > This seems so typically American to me.
>
> I don't think this needs to be labelled as typically American. I think
> street salsa is "typically American," so is hiphop. The most American
> cultural manifestations emphasize improvisation and the passing on of
> tradition in non-academic settings. America is profoundly anti-
cognitive
> and anti-academic, or anti-analytical if you will, this approach (to
break
> down everything mercilessly into abstractions) seems more typically
German
> than American to me, by contrast.
>
> > We dont seem to understand the
> > WHY of things and go about learning in an assbackward manner. For
> > example,the American approach to learning a language- Get some
books,
> > figure out the rules, go to a foregin country and complain bitterly
> > when the spoken language doesnt conform to the written standard.
>
> Americans hate learning languages from books in the first place.
Rather
> than study grammar rules most adults think the only way they can
> comfortably learn to become functionally communicative is through
forced
> immersion.
Really? It has always been my experience that when an American wants to
learn a new language he picks up a book and attempts some phrases. I
have spent 26 years exclusively in the company of "foreigners".
By that I mean, no matter where I have been , most of the people I knew
were not in their native culture. In the cases where the Americans were
out of their elements, they were not very keen on picking up the
language. They wanted tolearn a few phrases and maybe point at a phrase
book. I rarely have seen adult Americans just jump in and start
speaking. On the other hand, adults of other ethnicities usually didnt
have a problem winging it and learning on the fly.
Perhaps this doesnt hold true for other situations, but this has been
my experience.
In a way, this stereotyped 'lazy' American has the right idea.
> Even the pedagogy of language learning has changed in the past decade
to
> emphasize context and culture over pure grammatical structure.
I think that it is good when trying to learn a language that one learns
to speak and not just how to conjugate verbs. On the other hand,
because in MANY areas children are no longer learning the essentials of
grammar, they dont have the needed foundation to aquire a new language
without lots of grammar lessons.
I think
> dance training in general is more conservative in this way and still
has
> something spartan and stoic about it, and this "you must discipline
the
> body above all" idea reflects that. What they need is a new dance
pedagogy
> emphasizing the importance of that cultural context to learning.
Learn to
> dance WITHOUT MUSIC? Blasphemy. Depending on your point of view. I
think
> it's quite common for trained dancers to work this way. It's almost
like
> they use the music as a bon bon to reward discipline.
I think there is a fundamental difference between ballet and tap, and
salsa. The music isnt so integral to the dance, in fact the dance often
comes before the music has been created.
But that's a
> proficiency ethic, it leaves too much behind.
>
> > Just as writing was developed to preserve and share SPOKEN
> > language,dance was developed FROM (or at least with) the music.
>
> You were there?! *g*
>
Oh God yes! I can make time for the important things.
> I certainly agree, as would most Latinos who learned "from home," it's
> nonsensical, almost sacrilegious, to learn this stuff without the
music. I
> would almost say pointless. Use any music, use R&B, but for goodness
sake,
> never practice steps without music! The worst habit to get into is not
> listening. At the very least play some music in your head.
>
> > A jazz artist, I can never remember who, once said that the greatest
> > loss for jazz was when it ceased to be a music to dance to. Both the
> > dance and the music decline when that creative synergy is lost.
Look at
> > what is happening to salsa now. I still maintain that I canhear
clave
> > in anything, but I cannot deny that some of the salsa out there just
> > aint danceable.
>
> What do you mean? One can argue about the quality, but I'm not sure
what
> you mean by not danceable.
There is some salsa that is not made for dancing, its made for
listening. You CAN dance to it, but why bother? Sometimes music can be
SO smooth and SO watered down that it becomes difficult to follow.
>
> > And why should it be if it is being used as background
> > music rather than a guide?
>
> Guide? It's the third partner. The Holy Ghost.
Ah,that reminds me of good old Catholic school teaching. When dancing
always leave enough room for the Holy Spirit. And Kaysee's retort-
"He's a spirit, He doesnt take up any space".
N
kaysee
The teachers I've had have always modeled new steps to the music we were using before
asking us to try it. And the music only "went away" if the teacher wanted to slow
down the steps because we weren't getting it.
kaysee
Chris Smalt wrote in message ...
>kaysee wrote:
>
>>Here's my favorite part:
>>
>>"In fact, when we initially learn any part of this dance, whether it is the
>>basic step or shines, or more advanced turn patterns, we do not even play the
>>music at all. Instead, we count out loud "1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7"
>
>Could be a coincidence, but every time I worked with an American dance
>instructor, this is how it was done. The teachers from other parts of the
>world that I've had experience with, started by putting on music and making
>us imitate them.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
Santa Salsera
are "mainstream," in saying that there is something classically, truly, or
authentically "american" about them. I don't think it *is* classically or even
stereotypically american to crack open a book or analyze all the creativity out of a
thing in order to learn it. I think that is a general prejudice embedded in the
"mainstream" culture, and not necessarily in any certain individuals. I think american
does have vital cultural traditions and subcultures, but the most vital of those tend
to be the most 'organic,' community-based, orally/aurally transmitted, and not located
somewhere in the realm of the (generally) borrowed or stagnating 'high cultures.' I
think the way you and I see salsa and hiphop, i.e. as communities and types of wisdom
that don't just lodge in dance schools and other commercial outlets, epitomizes that
type of vitality. And of course, it does get imported into the mainstream, as we are
seeing now with the "Latin explosion," and that can lead to good things and bad for
certain members of those cultural communities or subcultures. But anyway, you know all
about that, I'm just trying to say that there was a moment of misapprehension there,
because I don't believe REAL salsa (for lack of a better descriptor) is mainstream, any
more than I believe "real" salsa can ONLY be learned from chubby professional dancers
in silk cummberbunds (the Anti-Eddie! ;-)), at events sponsored by large distilleries.
Dig?
I like your project, by the way.
-Sta. Salsera
"Edward-Yemíl Rosario" wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:33:19 -0400, Santa Salsera <sal...@nospampicadillo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"Edward-Yemíl Rosario" wrote:
> <snip>
> >> Which is my point. One would think this is a major problem after reading the
> >> article (which was placed on the FRONT PAGE?!?!). Some of the best dancers, some
> >> who have NEVER seen the inside of Eddie Torres' (or any other) studio, dance
> >> here in NYC. And whenever I interview them (via a structured qualitative
> >> methodology called Grounded Theory) this is never an issue.
> <snip>
>
> >What are their issues? Just curious. What did you interview them about?
> <snip>
>
> You raise many issues and I just don't have the time to hash them all out,
> though it would probably be good idea for me.
>
> I'll limit myself the above query and one more issue whcih you you raise
> somewhere else in this thread
>
> My interest is finding out what meaning dancers and listeners make of the whole
> Salsa thing. Lyrics, for example and what women make of them. Text is not
> passively absorbed and meaning is constantly created.The whole dance culture
> itself. How do the participants relate to or think about dance as a dating or
> recreational mechnism. What I'm looking for is what the people themselves think
> about what they do and involves more indecuctive, rather than deductive,
> reasoning. It's really all very informal in that I haven't really put much
> effort into the "project."
>
> I would like to point out that dancing forms in NYC can be mistaken as
> "mainstream" or "American" becasue much of what the subculture in this city
> creates ofte ends up on the movie screens, and fashion shows, and staples of the
> recording industry.
>
> I disagree that Hip Hop or NYC salsa dancing is mainstream, it has its roots as
> a counter to the mainstream, a way for Blacks and PRs, for example, to assert
> thier meaning in what is a hostile environment. Later on, these forms catch on,
> albeit in diluted and often under recognized forms. but these forms shouldn't be
> mistaken for what goes on in NYC. By the time these forms are sounding off at
> the nearest mall, the dialectic has turned into another spiral, begetting yet
> another form. That's what I have meant all along about resistence and hegemony.
>
> Hip Hop and Salsa were decidedly "anti-mainstream" forms of expression that were
> gobbled by the machine and spit out as something more "acceptable."
Santa Salsera
I would just point out that picking up a few quickie sentences is a LOT
different from picking up a GRAMMAR book and breaking it down, and REALLY
learning the language. We are a monkey see, monkey do people, sure, but
Americans in general don't learn languages beyond the phrasebook stage, we
as a people simply don't, compared to our peer nations.
> I
> have spent 26 years exclusively in the company of "foreigners".
I've spent 8 years teaching foreign language to americans. Can I share your
jello?
> By that I mean, no matter where I have been , most of the people I knew
> were not in their native culture.
Hell, I can say that right now! I've also lived abroad for 3 plus years.
> In the cases where the Americans were
> out of their elements, they were not very keen on picking up the
> language. They wanted tolearn a few phrases and maybe point at a phrase
> book.
Exactly my point. It's kind of typical for the military setting, isn't it,
where people live in insular "american abroad" environments and are not
there by choice, per se, so have little real investment in learning the
language? Can't say I blame them.
> I rarely have seen adult Americans just jump in and start
> speaking.
Look, I didn't say that is what really happens; I said most adults *imagine*
that it would be easier for them to learn via immersion, and are averse to
adult ed that involves any serious grammar work. Tapes and phrasebooks don't
count, that's tourist survival shit. The analogy we were going for here was
the breaking down of dance into steps, into a grammar, as it were, and I
don't necessarily think that that analytical approach is typical of
AMERICANS per se; I think it more typical of dance training, which is
conservative and structured like dat. Americans hate grammar, just like they
hate grating their own cheese.
> On the other hand, adults of other ethnicities usually didnt
> have a problem winging it and learning on the fly.
Uh...b.s. Language assimilation is a problema muy grande among the immigrant
populations here. I don't see any big difference. I think educational level
may make the biggest difference in approach there. Having some experience
with structured learning environments is usually a plus when you have some
structured learning to do. Most people who wing it become "communicative,"
"street cases" as they are called in the biz, and they are the hardest TO
teach grammar to, because they get ingrained incorrect habits. I don't think
that is nationality-specific.
> Perhaps this doesnt hold true for other situations, but this has been
> my experience.
"Breaking on the two" goes WAY beyond mere Berlitz-level dance grammar. We
are talking fanatical classtakers, here. People who thrive on structured
environments. By the way, these social dance schools are popular all over
the world, and they were popular among YOUNG people in Germany long before
the "explosion" hit us.
> In a way, this stereotyped 'lazy' American has the right idea.
> > Even the pedagogy of language learning has changed in the past decade
> to
> > emphasize context and culture over pure grammatical structure.
>
> I think that it is good when trying to learn a language that one learns
> to speak and not just how to conjugate verbs.
It's best to teach all the skills together: reading, writing, listening, and
speaking.
> On the other hand,
> because in MANY areas children are no longer learning the essentials of
> grammar, they dont have the needed foundation to aquire a new language
> without lots of grammar lessons.
Right on. Americans hate grammar. One reason being that we don't as a rule
learn foreign languages to the degree our peer nations do.
> I think
> > dance training in general is more conservative in this way and still
> has
> > something spartan and stoic about it, and this "you must discipline
> the
> > body above all" idea reflects that. What they need is a new dance
> pedagogy
> > emphasizing the importance of that cultural context to learning.
> Learn to
> > dance WITHOUT MUSIC? Blasphemy. Depending on your point of view. I
> think
> > it's quite common for trained dancers to work this way. It's almost
> like
> > they use the music as a bon bon to reward discipline.
>
> I think there is a fundamental difference between ballet and tap, and
> salsa.
Not if they are teaching it that way. How many professional salsa dancers do
you know who don't have some classical/modern dance training background?
> The music isnt so integral to the dance, in fact the dance often
> comes before the music has been created.
That's only a convention, isn't it? You don't often see them performed that
way. And tap IS music. My point is this convention of training (ballet being
a great example, the grammar is really broken down and named and all) surely
is an influence on people in the dance world when they attack other types of
dance.
> But that's a
> > proficiency ethic, it leaves too much behind.
>
> >
> > > Just as writing was developed to preserve and share SPOKEN
> > > language,dance was developed FROM (or at least with) the music.
> >
> > You were there?! *g*
> >
> Oh God yes! I can make time for the important things.
Well, you must be a lot older than you look.
> > I certainly agree, as would most Latinos who learned "from home," it's
> > nonsensical, almost sacrilegious, to learn this stuff without the
> music. I
> > would almost say pointless. Use any music, use R&B, but for goodness
> sake,
> > never practice steps without music! The worst habit to get into is not
> > listening. At the very least play some music in your head.
> >
> > > A jazz artist, I can never remember who, once said that the greatest
> > > loss for jazz was when it ceased to be a music to dance to. Both the
> > > dance and the music decline when that creative synergy is lost.
> Look at
> > > what is happening to salsa now. I still maintain that I canhear
> clave
> > > in anything, but I cannot deny that some of the salsa out there just
> > > aint danceable.
> >
> > What do you mean? One can argue about the quality, but I'm not sure
> what
> > you mean by not danceable.
>
> There is some salsa that is not made for dancing, its made for
> listening.
Like what, that slow romantica shit? It's not made for listening, it's made
for MAKING OUT! ;-)
> You CAN dance to it, but why bother? Sometimes music can be
> SO smooth and SO watered down that it becomes difficult to follow.
I honestly don't have that problem. It may not be very motivating music to
dance to, but that's a different question. If it's so slow or watered down
that I can't recognize a beat, it ain't salsa. It's a score score.
> >
> > > And why should it be if it is being used as background
> > > music rather than a guide?
> >
> > Guide? It's the third partner. The Holy Ghost.
>
> Ah,that reminds me of good old Catholic school teaching. When dancing
> always leave enough room for the Holy Spirit. And Kaysee's retort-
> "He's a spirit, He doesnt take up any space".
Perfect! I have all these Catholic tendencies for some reason and never even
wore a plaid pleated skirt. Go figure.
-Sta. Salsera
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
wrote:
>"Edward-Yemíl Rosario" wrote:
<snip>
>> Which is my point. One would think this is a major problem after reading the
>> article (which was placed on the FRONT PAGE?!?!). Some of the best dancers, some
>> who have NEVER seen the inside of Eddie Torres' (or any other) studio, dance
>> here in NYC. And whenever I interview them (via a structured qualitative
>> methodology called Grounded Theory) this is never an issue.
<snip>
>What are their issues? Just curious. What did you interview them about?
MS
> Bill wrote:
>
> > Could you describe that a little more, e.g, the other steps and the
>
>
> I'm not an expert - I only learned a single choreography and there must
> have been more to it that we didn't do. Also, just describing the steps
> wouldn't do justice to the dance, since it greatly depends on attitude:
the
> ladies fanning themselves, the guys lifting their hats, bows etc.
> Anyway, this is what we did: the music has a recurring "promenade" theme,
> on which you walk around with your lady, chat, and greet the other
couples.
> During the other parts of the music, you do simple one-two-three-rest
steps
> with variations, sometimes stationary, sometimes performing geometric
> figures with the other three couples. The whole thing looks like a
European
> court dance.
That's just the beginning part though, where the music is more European too.
In the later Son Montuno section, where the African influence comes out, the
dancers get down.
MS
> huh? you mean you can see that there are no lines and that men usually go
> into the restroom alone, i.e., with out taking a partner like the women
> usually do?
I never figured that one out. Why do women go to the restroom in pairs or
groups?
BillBDC
more--books, videos, anything? I'd like to learn more about how
the Cuban roots compare with the danzon style I saw in Mexico.
--Bill
Washington, D.C.
MS <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:ss6ba0...@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]...(Cuban danzon).....
kaysee
Alternatively, so you can talk frankly about your male escort(s).
kaysee
MS wrote in message ...
>
>"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@dmreed.com> wrote in message
>news:_7fv5.72579
>
>> huh? you mean you can see that there are no lines and that men usually go
>> into the restroom alone, i.e., with out taking a partner like the women
>> usually do?
>
Nina
to have someone to talk to as u adjust your 5 layers of undergarments
and touch up your face. Then she can check u out while she makes her
repairs. Nothing worse than walking aroubd like you own the place only
to discover that your panthose are falling, your slip hanging and the
foam pads areinching their way out of your bra to take a breath.
And of course, u have to talk about your dates and where they rate on
the pycho scale, if an early escape is neccessary a game plan must be
formulated.
Basically, the bathroom is boring w/out company.
Nina
In article <ss6v0c3...@corp.supernews.com>,>
> I never figured that one out. Why do women go to the restroom in
pairs or
> groups?
>
>
Yambu
>..... its nice
>to have someone to talk to as u adjust your 5 layers of undergarments
>and touch up your face. Then she can check u out while she makes her
>repairs. Nothing worse than walking aroubd like you own the place only
>to discover that your panthose are falling, your slip hanging and the
>foam pads areinching their way out of your bra to take a breath.......
>
Oooo.......You really know how to turn on a guy.
-Mike Doran
kaysee
kaysee
Yambu wrote in message <39c4b589...@news.earthlink.net>...
Nina
help keeping up the illusion. Men dont mind a little trickery, they
just dont want to see it.
Arent all cats are grey in the dark?( and for once that is NOT meant as
a double entendre)
Nina
yam...@earthlink.net (Yambu) wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:27:58 GMT, Nina <nina...@worldspy.net> wrote:
> Nothing worse than walking aroubd like you own the place only
> >to discover that your panthose are falling, your slip hanging and the
> >foam pads areinching their way out of your bra to take a
breath.......
> >
> Oooo.......You really know how to turn on a guy.
>
> -Mike Doran
>
Edward-Yemíl Rosario
>Girl stuff. It takes us longer to make the neccessary repairs, its nice
>to have someone to talk to as u adjust your 5 layers of undergarments
>and touch up your face. Then she can check u out while she makes her
>repairs. Nothing worse than walking aroubd like you own the place only
>to discover that your panthose are falling, your slip hanging and the
>foam pads areinching their way out of your bra to take a breath.
<snip>
This is hilarious!!! You have a wicked sense of humor, lady.
This image is funnier than the old
toilet-paper-stuck-to-the-high-heels-as-you-dance image
>And of course, u have to talk about your dates and where they rate on
>the pycho scale, if an early escape is neccessary a game plan must be
>formulated.
>Basically, the bathroom is boring w/out company.
<snip>
I remember when I was "radio-ACTIVE," I always enjoyed ending up in the women's
bathroom ("don't worry babe, I'm gay," I would tell the dearies as they entered
hitching skirts). Really, it was a lot of fun. Sometimes I would be surrounded
by women telling jokes and carrying on while we blew away coke or some other
illegal shit. And I was always surprised at how disgusting the facilities were
<ugh>.
Edward-Yemíl Rosario (Eddie)
Jibaro Scientific Axiom:
A pound of shit
Weighs more than a hundred pounds of coffee.
-Victor Hernandez-Cruz
Santa Salsera
-Fab
kaysee wrote:
> It's so you can always have someone to check the back of your hair.
> Alternatively, so you can talk frankly about your male escort(s).
>
> kaysee
>
> MS wrote in message ...
> >
> >"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@dmreed.com> wrote in message
> >news:_7fv5.72579
> >
> >> huh? you mean you can see that there are no lines and that men usually go
> >> into the restroom alone, i.e., with out taking a partner like the women
> >> usually do?
> >