2004 R1. Soft Valves?
andy the pugh
Yamaha R1?
I checked my valve clearances at 25,000 miles and found that 2 valves
(and two valves only) had clearances which had increased by 4 shim
sizes.
I did it again a couple of weeks ago, and the same 2 valves (one inlet
valve in each of the two left-side cylinders) have this time moved by
6 shim sizes. They are now back in spec, but there are no shims sizes
left....
Examination of the valve stem ends seems to indicate that the stem end
where the shims contact them are wearing and/or mushrooming. (I won't
know for sure until I get them out)
At the moment the bike is back together and being my daily transport.
I reckon a problem that has taken 50,000 miles to appear can wait for
a more convenient juncture to be fixed.
--
atp
Mark Olson
> Has anyone heard any rumours of valve-stem softness in the 2004 model
> Yamaha R1?
No, but pre-2006 FJR1300s had valve guide wear issues. Probably
unrelated to metallurgy or heat treatment and more likely down to the
seals, though.
> I checked my valve clearances at 25,000 miles and found that 2 valves
> (and two valves only) had clearances which had increased by 4 shim
> sizes.
> I did it again a couple of weeks ago, and the same 2 valves (one inlet
> valve in each of the two left-side cylinders) have this time moved by
> 6 shim sizes. They are now back in spec, but there are no shims sizes
> left....
>
> Examination of the valve stem ends seems to indicate that the stem end
> where the shims contact them are wearing and/or mushrooming. (I won't
> know for sure until I get them out)
>
> At the moment the bike is back together and being my daily transport.
> I reckon a problem that has taken 50,000 miles to appear can wait for
> a more convenient juncture to be fixed.
If the stems are indeed mushrooming the only possible answer I can see
is that they are soft. I'd take a very close look at the cam lobes to
make absolutely sure they aren't the culprit.
Interesting cam design, it looks as if there is no bearing journal
outboard of the #1 cylinder cam lobes.
--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
andy the pugh
> I'd take a very close look at the cam lobes to
> make absolutely sure they aren't the culprit.
I can't see any way that they could be. If there is any clearance at
all then the cam lobe base circle touches nothing, so can't wear.
Rayvan
Base circles don't wear as they have any no force being applied to
them.
Cam lobes can *and do* wear as they work against the valve springs.
Google "Honda VRF cams" (mine ate three sets in 40,000 miles).
I've never seen a valve stem mushroom. I guess it could but the valve
would have to have run into a piston or something.
Cam wear is likely the problem.
Unfortunately, if no more shims are available to bring your clearance
into spec then next service for you will require a rebuilt head,
How many miles on it?
--
Rayvan
andy the pugh
> Base circles don't wear as they have any no force being applied to
> them.
Exactly.
> Cam wear is likely the problem.
But you measure the clearance on the base circle area. So cam wear
can't be the problem if the problem is overly large clearances.
> Unfortunately, if no more shims are available to bring your clearance
> into spec then next service for you will require a rebuilt head,
I reckon I will need to do it rather before then, as the clearances
are clearly shifting much faster than the 25k adjustment interval
assumes. In fact I have a head gasket, seals and 2 new valves in a bag
in my garage.
> How many miles on it?
I said in the original post, 50k -ish.
Mark Olson
> On May 9, 7:01 am, andy the pugh <bodge...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9 May, 13:25, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd take a very close look at the cam lobes to
>>> make absolutely sure they aren't the culprit.
>> I can't see any way that they could be. If there is any clearance at
>> all then the cam lobe base circle touches nothing, so can't wear.
>
> Base circles don't wear as they have any no force being applied to
> them.
> Cam lobes can *and do* wear as they work against the valve springs.
> Google "Honda VRF cams" (mine ate three sets in 40,000 miles).
Having thought about it- a worn cam lobe won't increase the
valve lash, unless when it got worn, it also wore out the top
of the bucket from inadequate lubrication. I think atp would
have noticed the worn buckets when he took the cams out and
inspected the mushroomed stems.
> I've never seen a valve stem mushroom. I guess it could but the valve
> would have to have run into a piston or something.
I had a valve stem mushroom, but not on a shim-under-bucket
valvetrain, it was a CM400T with screw-and-locknut adjusters
that no one bothered to adjust for about 20 000 miles:
http://www.visi.com/~olsonm/manip_bad_valve_1.jpg
> Cam wear is likely the problem.
How could cam lobe wear result in increased valve lash? I
have had totally ruined cams and rockers on my ZG1000 which
resulted from a blocked oil line to the head, but the base
circle of the cams were not worn at all. Due to the wear of
the rockers there was increased valve lash but none of the
increase came from the cams unworn base circle, and it was
quite obvious that the rockers were heavily cut into, this
would be extremely noticeable if the buckets on atp's R1
were worn.
> Unfortunately, if no more shims are available to bring your clearance
> into spec then next service for you will require a rebuilt head,
Maybe, or maybe he can get by just replacing a couple of
valves, if they really are soft, the valve guides may not
be worn. I suppose it is possible that he's got two valve
seats that are crawling out of the head but I'd think that
is pretty unlikely compared to a simpler explanation of
a couple of poorly heat treated valve stems.
> How many miles on it?
Original post said ~ 50 000 miles.
--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
andy the pugh
> I suppose it is possible that he's got two valve
> seats that are crawling out of the head but I'd think that
> is pretty unlikely compared to a simpler explanation of
> a couple of poorly heat treated valve stems.
And, indeed, that pretty much looks to be the case.
The good news is that it is wear rather than mushrooming (I was
dreading having to dremel the valve stems to get them out of the
guides whilst keeping all the rest of the valve train clean.
Here's "1000 words"
http://www.bodgesoc.org/valves.jpg
I wonder if Yamaha could be persuaded to pick up any of the bill?
Mark Olson
> On 10 May, 01:20, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I suppose it is possible that he's got two valve
>> seats that are crawling out of the head but I'd think that
>> is pretty unlikely compared to a simpler explanation of
>> a couple of poorly heat treated valve stems.
>
> And, indeed, that pretty much looks to be the case.
>
> The good news is that it is wear rather than mushrooming (I was
> dreading having to dremel the valve stems to get them out of the
> guides whilst keeping all the rest of the valve train clean.
Dremel? I could have, but the angle grinder was quicker when I had to
remove the mushroomed valves on the CM400T. I would just cover
everything else up with rags and give the whole works a good clean
afterward.
> Here's "1000 words"
>
> http://www.bodgesoc.org/valves.jpg
It looks like they were precisely ground off!
> I wonder if Yamaha could be persuaded to pick up any of the bill?
Not much to lose but some time, I'd say. It's hard to see how it could
be anything other than a manufacturing defect but the remedy offered
might only be a couple of replacement valves. I suppose that would
still beat "piss off" though.
I hope Yamaha have sorted the poor heat treating issue- I've just
ordered a new '07 FJR1300.
The Older Gentleman
> I hope Yamaha have sorted the poor heat treating issue- I've just
> ordered a new '07 FJR1300.
Out of curiosity, why?[1] I would not have thought that it was really
'you'.
[1] I am guessing Plenty Cheapness.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60
The bells, the bells.....
Mark Olson
> Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I hope Yamaha have sorted the poor heat treating issue- I've just
>> ordered a new '07 FJR1300.
>
> Out of curiosity, why?[1] I would not have thought that it was really
> 'you'.
Fancied a change, that's all. Pretty much aiming at the same market as
the ZG1000 Concours (GTR1000), except of course the Gen II FJR is a new
design, 20 years newer than the Concours which has stayed essentially
unchanged since 1986. I considered a GTR1400 but don't like the KIPASS
and some other new-model issues. I think Yamaha has pretty much sorted
out the FJR by now.
> [1] I am guessing Plenty Cheapness.
Well, yes- I had been looking for a used one but a local dealer had one
going for $11k, so about $11.8k out the door including tax & license.
New 2008 auto-shift models $11.3k + t&l, 2008 manual shift were $11.8k
+ t&l. Quite a discount from their US MSRP of $15.7k.
[googles for UK RRP, Price: £ 10,999.00 RRP (inc. VAT)]
I'm curious, how much is the typical UK on-the-road price for a '08 (or
an '07 if there are any left over) FJR (non-auto-clutch), all taxes and
license fees included?
The Older Gentleman
Dunno. I'm in Chile right now and so can't peruse the classifieds, but
it's never been a popular model here. Too big and pig ugly. Everyone was
hoping for a sort of updated FJ1200[1] with a shaft, and Yamaha produced
this.
A quick browse of the internet shows brand new 2008 models going for
£9k. Auto models - £12k. Stupid money. Your price works out at about
£6000, which is equally stupid. Nice.
[1] Still one of the best sports tourers anyone's ever made, IMHO.
andy the pugh
clearances are back exactly to spec.
:-)
Mark Olson
I recognize a fellow inveterate note-taker.
--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
Bruce Richmond
Good deal. Now bug the shit out of them to pay for the defective
valves. BTW, I once had a Kawasaki with some soft valve shims. The
shims had noticable dents in them from the valve stems. The dealer
replaced them free of charge. Of course that was a lot less expense
than what you are talking about.
Bruce
andy the pugh
> Of course that was a lot less expense
> than what you are talking about.
The parts were actually cheaper than I feared. Inlet valves are £8
($13) each.
Mark Olson
Did you lap the valves or am I revealing myself to be stuck in the
1950s?
--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7
Bruce Richmond
I just bought a single exhaust valve for my old airhead BMW. Would
you believe $115 !!!
andy the pugh
> Did you lap the valves or am I revealing myself to be stuck in the
> 1950s?
I did. The OEM manual says to do so (and specifies the contact width
required, to be measured with Engineers Blue.
Fortunately as I do a fair bit of old-fashioned mechanicking (I help
maintain a 1916 Dennis) I have such things as Blue and lapping
compound lying about.
It is probably a testament to modern engineering that lapping took one
dab of compound and about 6 strokes to get a perfect contact.
andy the pugh
> I just bought a single exhaust valve for my old airhead BMW. Would
> you believe $115 !!!
So, a full replacement set is 4 valves @ $115 = $460.
For the R1 it is 20 valves at $13 = $260
I win!
Bruce Richmond
I had the heads done up with new valves, seats and springs two years
ago. This is on a vintage racing bike. I found a bent valve while
going through it this winter so just added the valve to the list of
parts I was getting. Nearly shit when I saw the price. It only cost
$500 for the whole deal before.
Bruce