Yeah I can afford a Harley...but I don't want one
shado...@hotmail.com
buyers are Harley wannabes who can't afford to put out the big bucks.
I assure you that I could easily afford a Harley if I wanted one and
actually looked at a Road King and Electra-Glide before I decided to buy
a Honda ACE Tourer.
My choice was based on weight, smooth ride, nimbleness in handling and
the well known reliability of Hondas. Cost was not even a consideration.
Sure I wish that Hondas had the huge choice of aftermarket parts but
with stuff at Cobra and other places, I was well able to outfit my
Tourer the way I wanted.
Harley has created ths "legend" thing that keeps the prices up and the
quality down. Frankly they don't care what kind of shit they make in
the factory as they know that many of you would buy it anyway. I think
some of you would buy pidgeonshit if Harley could think of a way of
putting their logo on it.
Shad
Wolfe Axe
>buyers are Harley wannabes
riding with a friend a few weeks back- he on his Ducati & me on one of my
Triumphs- when we stopped for a errand. A guy comes up & says...."nice bike...
bet you wish it was a Harley"...........amused, I asked him: "If I pulled up in
a shiney new Jag or Porsche, would you say'Bet you wish it was a chevy? He had
that blank stare that really ignorant people get when you confuse them with
logic.
You'll love the new Honda. Its a superior machine...............its not "a
way of life"........
"a lifestyle".........entre' to a badly needed
social life.............a fashion statement, etc.,
but- you'll like the machine.
My wife is looking for a new cruiser to replace her Virago 750 (which has
been flawless), and because of all the bad experiences of out HD riding pals-
she is looking at anything BUT a Harley, and she can afford whatever bike her
cute l'l butt desires!
Be cool, pose less, be safe.
Jay
midaztch
>I am really, really sick of people here who say that all Jap cruiser
>buyers are Harley wannabes who can't afford to put out the big bucks.
I haven't seen many posts like that, am I just talking to a troll?
>I assure you that I could easily afford a Harley if I wanted one and
>actually looked at a Road King and Electra-Glide before I decided to buy
>a Honda ACE Tourer.
Ahhh....so you think it is all a *money* thing? Or did you fancy
yourself a "wannabe"?
>My choice was based on weight, smooth ride, nimbleness in handling and
>the well known reliability of Hondas.
Hmmm. I remember Honda having problems on LOTS of bikes in the past.
And some ain't exactly nimble.
> Cost was not even a consideration.
So you keep telling us. Shall we have a "how much do we earn"
show-and-tell?
>Sure I wish that Hondas had the huge choice of aftermarket parts but
>with stuff at Cobra and other places, I was well able to outfit my
>Tourer the way I wanted.
>
>Harley has created ths "legend" thing that keeps the prices up and the
>quality down.
Really? I had a Fat Boy for a couple of years and thought the quality
was quite good...certainly up with other manufacturers. Where did you
find the quality lacking? Why would a "legend" thing do that? I
think Harley already learned that that didn't work back in the 70's
when they nearly died. Sheesh...an American bike being blasted in
America by an American. (I presume you are an American)
> Frankly they don't care what kind of shit they make in
>the factory as they know that many of you would buy it anyway. I think
>some of you would buy pidgeonshit if Harley could think of a way of
>putting their logo on it.
If we did wish to buy pigeon shit, we would. You chose a Honda....no
biggie to me.....why are *you* so angry about it?
I also think you'll find that they DO care in the factory...that is
why their bikes are so popular. Good product, good
advertising....incidentally the same way the japs, and lately Triumph
have successfully gone about it. What is wrong with that? Get beaten
up by a Motorcycle Club somewhere did ya?
________________________________
John T509
NiteHwk650
>the factory as they know that many of you would buy it anyway.
I am a rabid Honda fan, and as you might have surmised from my "nick", I am
totally devoted to my '83 Nighthawk 650. After close to 42,000 miles it still
runs strong and reliably.
I have to take exception to your statements about Harley's quality, however.
They are on a par with anyone these days, and their style is still in a class
by itself. The better looking Japanese cruisers come the closest to resembling
"the real deal".
I get irritated too when the subject of my riding a motorcycle arises, and some
"dim bulb" asks the obligatory question...."A Harley?" I ride a Honda
because I like it. I am unconcerned about the monetary issue, because
obviously I plan to keep mine until it is totally depreciated. In all
fairness, however, although the "buy in" is higher on a Harley, when you factor
in the re-sale value, the cost per mile is probably less. I haven't run the
numbers, but it seems plausible.
Why haven't I run the numbers? It doesn't matter to me.....I'm a dedicated
Honda pilot!
Steve
midaztch
Fuck my old boots. A rational and polite reply to a jap cruiser vs
Harley question!!
Please do not post to this grope again <G>
// Sergeant Schultz//
"Ve hef no time for ze nice replies here!"
//Sergeant Schultz//
Power to you Steve. You hit the nail on the head. Ride what you want
to ride. :)
____________________________
John T509
Tim Morrow
> I am a rabid Honda fan, and as you might have surmised from my "nick", I am
> totally devoted to my '83 Nighthawk 650. After close to 42,000 miles it still
> runs strong and reliably.
(snippage)
> I am unconcerned about the monetary issue, because
> obviously I plan to keep mine until it is totally depreciated.
You're there, dude; you're there!!!!!!
Note: ------> ;-)
S.H.
>
> On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:49:00 -0600, shado...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >I am really, really sick of people here who say that all Jap cruiser
> >buyers are Harley wannabes who can't afford to put out the big bucks.
>
> I haven't seen many posts like that, am I just talking to a troll?
>
> >I assure you that I could easily afford a Harley if I wanted one and
> >actually looked at a Road King and Electra-Glide before I decided to buy
> >a Honda ACE Tourer.
>
> Ahhh....so you think it is all a *money* thing? Or did you fancy
> yourself a "wannabe"?
>
> >My choice was based on weight, smooth ride, nimbleness in handling and
> >the well known reliability of Hondas.
>
> Hmmm. I remember Honda having problems on LOTS of bikes in the past.
> And some ain't exactly nimble.
>
> > Cost was not even a consideration.
>
> So you keep telling us. Shall we have a "how much do we earn"
> show-and-tell?
>
> >Sure I wish that Hondas had the huge choice of aftermarket parts but
> >with stuff at Cobra and other places, I was well able to outfit my
> >Tourer the way I wanted.
> >
> >quality down.
>
> was quite good...certainly up with other manufacturers. Where did you
> find the quality lacking? Why would a "legend" thing do that? I
> think Harley already learned that that didn't work back in the 70's
> when they nearly died. Sheesh...an American bike being blasted in
> America by an American. (I presume you are an American)
>
think not. I wouldn't even call it an american bike. Pay attention.
midaztch
wrote:
>midaztch wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:49:00 -0600, shado...@hotmail.com wrote:
<snippage has taken place>
>>
>> Really? I had a Fat Boy for a couple of years and thought the quality
>> was quite good...certainly up with other manufacturers. Where did you
>> find the quality lacking? Why would a "legend" thing do that? I
>> think Harley already learned that that didn't work back in the 70's
>> when they nearly died. Sheesh...an American bike being blasted in
>> America by an American. (I presume you are an American)
>>
>I believe this thread was posted awhile back. Harley, 100% american?, I
>think not. I wouldn't even call it an american bike. Pay attention.
The post I replied to was dated as above. Pay attention.
I ride a Triumph. It has jap bits on it. It comes from England. Ergo
it is a British bike. Harleys are made here, with many parts sourced
out-of-house, but it is "generally" thought of as an American bike.
I quoth not that a Harley was 100% American....what gave you that
idea...lack of attention?
--------------------------------------
John T509
shado...@hotmail.com
"S.H." wrote:
Snip
> >
> > Really? I had a Fat Boy for a couple of years and thought the quality
> > was quite good...certainly up with other manufacturers. Where did you
> > find the quality lacking? Why would a "legend" thing do that? I
> > think Harley already learned that that didn't work back in the 70's
> > when they nearly died. Sheesh...an American bike being blasted in
> > America by an American. (I presume you are an American)
> >
> I believe this thread was posted awhile back. Harley, 100% american?, I
> think not. I wouldn't even call it an american bike. Pay attention.
My Honda Tourer was made in the USA (Ohio I think) by American workers who fed
their American families because I bought the bike in America. Doesn't all that
qualify my bike as an American Made Bike?
Shad
Redden
would buy. If I wanted a bike that was "nimble", I wouldn't consider any
cruiser. Well maybe the Beemer or Guzzi.
--
Redden
www.tutty.com
HOG FVR
That it is, a bike made in America, a Japanese bike! Just
like
a Mercedes made here in the USA, it's a German car made in
the USA!
A Harley is an American bike made in the USA... now where
some of
the parts come from in all these cases is also up for
discussion.
When and if Harley decides to build bikes in Brazil, they'll
be
American bikes made in Brazil. Camaros are American cars,
right?
but built in Canada.
I don't see a big problem in understanding this!
--
Karl Fengler
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - BRONCO*351 - FXDWG -
- hog...@iname.com ---- or ---- karl_f...@hp.com -
!! You Have Strayed Upon The Motorway To HELL !!
shado...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<363F3DFC...@hotmail.com>...
Luzerne Ave
Redden wrote in message <71nefp$aq3$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Yes !!!
Guzzi EV !
- or the new low-rider version due in February.
Bella !!
--
Luzerne Avenue - around the corner from
" Emily's - Home Of The Cold Wave ! " Spring 1945
NiteHwk650
>I agree. I am also pleased that my Harley will never totally
>depreciate. Does that mean that I will never have to buy another bike?
Not bloody likely! :)
I never said that I wouldn't add to my "stable". Like all riders, I suffer
from *moto-lust*. And I swear, that Buell Thunderbolt I saw a couple weeks ago
at Daytona's Biketoberfest winked at me! Honest! And then there's the
CBR1100XX, and......<heart palpatations, hands sweating...>
And when your Harley and my Nighthawk finally do *cash in*, we'll probably both
have them bronzed and put in the living room!
Somehow, that seems fittng.
Steve
NiteHwk650
>
>Fuck my old boots. A rational and polite reply to a jap cruiser vs
>Harley question!!
>Please do not post to this grope again <G>
>// Sergeant Schultz//
I'll try to do better in the future, Sarge........dammit! :)
>
>"Ve hef no time for ze nice replies here!"
>
>//Sergeant Schultz//
>
>Power to you Steve. You hit the nail on the head. Ride what you want
>to ride. :)
Absolutely....its a big tent! Being from Oklahoma originally, I consider
myself the Will Rogers of motorcycles....I never met one I didn't like!
Steve
Michael Conner
because i dont realy enjoy spending a hundred dollers or more every time i
go to a shop
I had a 1959 pan when i was young and dumb and did not know what it was
worth it was in showroom condition and i sold it . my bust.
but i had a sporty that i worked on all the time and it drained me to ride
it . then i bought a shadow 600 comperable power and handleing to the
sporty. but almost Zero mainanance costs in three years I drove that bike
28,000 miles with not a single hiccup or bad thing go wrong. ( even hit a
curb on it and did not even knok the front wheel out of true.
sold that a couple of months ago to a good freind and he loves it. I am now
riding a pacific coast and it has gone 3800 miles in the last couple of
monthes without a single miss I never went that far on th sporty withoit
trouble of some type.
but i still love the bikes I just dont make the money it takes to support
one and eat to.
hope i did not offend the harley riders out there .
one day i will probably ride one again but for now my insurance company
likes the one i am on. and my wallet is even happier
Michael Conner
get confused
David Hodges
>I get irritated too when the subject of my riding a motorcycle arises, and some
>"dim bulb" asks the obligatory question...."A Harley?" I ride a Honda
>because I like it. I am unconcerned about the monetary issue, because
>obviously I plan to keep mine until it is totally depreciated.
I feel the same way about my Nighthawk, however I think I depreciated
the fuck out of it recently.
--
David Hodges
1998 Nighthawk temporarily traded for a pair of crutches
midaztch
>
>
>"S.H." wrote:
>
>Snip
>
>> >
>> > Really? I had a Fat Boy for a couple of years and thought the quality
>> > was quite good...certainly up with other manufacturers. Where did you
>> > find the quality lacking? Why would a "legend" thing do that? I
>> > think Harley already learned that that didn't work back in the 70's
>> > when they nearly died. Sheesh...an American bike being blasted in
>> > America by an American. (I presume you are an American)
>> >
>> I believe this thread was posted awhile back. Harley, 100% american?, I
>> think not. I wouldn't even call it an american bike. Pay attention.
>
>My Honda Tourer was made in the USA (Ohio I think) by American workers who fed
>their American families because I bought the bike in America. Doesn't all that
>qualify my bike as an American Made Bike?
>
*I* wrote that....attribution attention please.
It makes your bike a jap bike. The American families who fed off it
are similar folk as the ones who fed off any Harley ever made.
You just don't get it do you. The bike was assembled here from jap
designs from (mainly) jap engineers, most likely using shipped in
engines and other parts. From japan and Korea etc.
No-one is saying you are wrong in buying or riding it. But it isn't
*per se* an American Motorcycle. A Harley is.
Incidentally....where did the REAL profits go? The USA or japan?
(Notwithstanding corporate share ownership)
________________________________
John T509
Wolfe Axe
>fed
Some thoughts:
1. we should all thank the Jap companies for copying HD so well (like HD copied
Indian), along with the brave folks that bought them- BECAUSE competition makes
you keen. This stiff & persistant competition has forced HD to finally bring
their bikes into the 19'th century (not quite 20'th century machines yet) by
developing a new engine. This major improvement design copies European &
Japanese engine twin cam m/c engine technology- and all HD buyers are better
for it.
2. Persistant competition will help all HD buyers by helping to lower the
prices. In fact, HD prices aren't that high. It's a combination of dealer
greed, coupled with ignorant/over eager buyers that drives prices up above
list.
3. Most tales of value appreciation of HD's is exagerated greatly. some of my
friends have been trying to sell their '96-'98 HD's, and are facing significant
losses. They "had" to pay over list when they bought, and now they are stuck.
One friend payed $20,000 in '96 for a Road King (he calls it "Road Kill"
because its such a pig on the highway with his wife & some luggage), put $4000
in extras to make it useable for his purposes, keeps it PERFECT.......and has
been trying to get $18000 for 1 1/2 years. Nobody even responds to his ads.
JW
Richard Evans
>No-one is saying you are wrong in buying or riding it. But it isn't
>*per se* an American Motorcycle. A Harley is.
>Incidentally....where did the REAL profits go?
What exactly are the *real* profits? The dealer I bought my Royal
Star from was an American who made a couple of bucks on the deal. His
parts and service department has continued to make a few bucks a year
from me. All the American after-market accessory dealers that I've
donated several grand to have made a couple of bucks. The American
bank that financed the bike (at an absurd 11.25%) made money. My
American credit union, who refinanced it for 8.9% is making money.
Dunlop made a few bucks when I replaced a tire this summer.
So some portion of the original purchase price ended up in Japan. So
what. I don't hear anyone bitching about where the money goes that
we spend on gas and oil, or are there folks out there who only buy
American petroleum products?
It's a global economy. Get used to it.
Dick Evans
midaztch
Evans) wrote:
>mida...@spammityspam.enteract.com (midaztch) wrote:
>
>
>>No-one is saying you are wrong in buying or riding it. But it isn't
>>*per se* an American Motorcycle. A Harley is.
>>Incidentally....where did the REAL profits go?
>
<snip the blah>
>So some portion of the original purchase price ended up in Japan. So
>what. I don't hear anyone bitching about where the money goes that
>we spend on gas and oil, or are there folks out there who only buy
>American petroleum products?
Ummm I think you'll find America is still the oil giant it always was,
FWIW.
I'm not "bitching" about anything...the only one who appears to have a
female dog to chase is yourself.
The original question was related to the source of the bike....not who
you bought your tyre off.
>
>It's a global economy. Get used to it.
It's a tangent. A hook, and not a good one.
John
Some Guy on a Bike
> hope i did not offend the harley riders out there .
NAHAY (tm)?
--
============================================================================
Adam Wade CWRA #4 SDWL #2 espr...@winternet.com
CIMC #1 DoD #2009 LOMP #2 "The only way I'll stop riding
1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Daphne) is if I stop breathing."
http://www.winternet.com/~espresso
============================================================================
thegango...@hotmail.net
midaztch wrote:
>
> It's a tangent. A hook, and not a good one.
>
Wrongo! a tangent is a fellow who lives in Florida.
The Gang of Steves
Richard Evans
>>>No-one is saying you are wrong in buying or riding it. But it isn't
>>>*per se* an American Motorcycle. A Harley is.
>>>Incidentally....where did the REAL profits go?
>The original question was related to the source of the bike....not who
>you bought your tyre off.
What exactly then did you mean by your question about where the
*real* profit goes? My question to you was what do you mean by real
profit? My point was that lots of *real* profit from import bikes
goes into American pockets.
Dick
midaztch
No, you are talking about 'production expenses' , not 'net profit'.
There being a difference.
--------------------------------
John
NiteHwk650
>I feel the same way about my Nighthawk, however I think I depreciated
>the fuck out of it recently.
David -
Sorry to hear you bent your bird. Hope you and it have a speedy recovery.
Steve
sam mayberry
>
> I agree with most of the things said here in this thread. I bought my honda
> because i dont realy enjoy spending a hundred dollers or more every time i
> go to a shop
> I had a 1959 pan when i was young and dumb and did not know what it was
> worth it was in showroom condition and i sold it . my bust.
> but i had a sporty that i worked on all the time and it drained me to ride
> it . then i bought a shadow 600 comperable power and handleing to the
> sporty. but almost Zero mainanance costs in three years I drove that bike
> 28,000 miles with not a single hiccup or bad thing go wrong. ( even hit a
> curb on it and did not even knok the front wheel out of true.
> sold that a couple of months ago to a good freind and he loves it. I am now
> riding a pacific coast and it has gone 3800 miles in the last couple of
> monthes without a single miss I never went that far on th sporty withoit
> trouble of some type.
> but i still love the bikes I just dont make the money it takes to support
> one and eat to.
> likes the one i am on. and my wallet is even happier
on a honda superhawk, (in '61 or so) and never looked back. i like to
wave the flag, too but i notice the showa forks and shocks and the
hitachi electrics on the hogs so i guess we are all in an effort to
produce the best deals we can. best wishes, sam
Wolfe Axe
Couldn't agree with you more Steve, but some people get over anxious, and
believe the "gush" the greedy dealer tells them.
FWI: I sold this year (1998) 2 of my european bikes- 1 '91 Ducati, and a
'86 Guzzi.
I made a profit on both of them over & above what I paid for them, and above
any extras I added. So, I like you am a prudent shopper, and refuse to play the
game the HD dealers play so well on their mind numbed customers.
Now, does this make Ducati or Guzzi the best? :>
JW
Andy C.
sam mayberry wrote:
[snip]
> i prefer the jap bikes, too. after riding harleys for years i got a ride
> on a honda superhawk, (in '61 or so)
^^^^^^Wow - honda superhawks have been going
a _long_ time !
> and never looked back. i like to
> wave the flag, too but i notice the showa forks and shocks and the
> hitachi electrics on the hogs so i guess we are all in an effort to
> produce the best deals we can. best wishes, sam
--
Andy C. "as always, the contents above come with a smiley !"
http://www.york.microvitec.co.uk/~asc
e-mail: use the reply field
Tim Morrow
>
> sam mayberry wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > i prefer the jap bikes, too. after riding harleys for years i got a ride
> > on a honda superhawk, (in '61 or so)
>
> ^^^^^^Wow - honda superhawks have been going
> a _long_ time !
Yeah, a good name gets used and re-used, over and over again.
Kinda like Thunderbird, Corvette, Sportster, etc...
shado...@hotmail.com
midaztch wrote:
> >">Snip
> >
> >It makes your bike a jap bike. The American families who fed off it
> are similar folk as the ones who fed off any Harley ever made.
> You just don't get it do you. The bike was assembled here from jap
> designs from (mainly) jap engineers, most likely using shipped in
> engines and other parts. From japan and Korea etc.
>
> No-one is saying you are wrong in buying or riding it. But it isn't
> *per se* an American Motorcycle. A Harley is.
> Incidentally....where did the REAL profits go? The USA or japan?
> (Notwithstanding corporate share ownership)
This argument is full of holes. Do you think all Harley designs and parts were
made in Milwaukee? There are probably as many Asian parts and designs in your
Harley as in my Honda. Where do those profits go? Not to Willie G. and the
Wisconsin boys. I agree that popular culture considers Harleys American and Hondas
Japanese but the perception doesn't exactly agree with reality.
But lets not fight about it. The riding season is getting short and we should
spend more time riding and less time arguing.
Ride safe,
Shad
Joe S. Garzik
According to the now defunct BLVD magazine, the Honda Valkyrie, made in Ohio, has the
highest domestic content of any motorcycle. (Using domestic content laws, a Honda
Accord is an American car but a Ford Crown Victoria is a foreign car. Go figure.)
Also, HDs use Showa shocks, Keihim carbs, and Japanese switchgear. BTW, Showa and
Keihim are Honda affiliates.
--
Joe S. Garzik '93 ST1100ABS-TCS '98 ACE Tourer
"If I can make a dress out of a chicken feed sack I can make a man out of you."
-- another great country music lyric
Flash - DoD #412
> I bought my HD for $7,000 (one year old used bike) in 1992. It now has
> a conservative value of $10k. All it took was a little shopping. A
> brand new FXD is only $12,995. So my 6 year old bike with 40k miles
> plus $3,000 (or less) gets me a brand new one.
>
> My best guess is that if you pay MSRP for a new Harley, it will hold
> most or all of that value for the foreseeable future. In that respect,
> Harleys are the best.
I bought a '71 BMW R75/5 in '73 with about 9,000 miles on it. I sold it
in 1981 for exactly what I paid for it ($1750) without adding any new
accessories, with about 75k miles. Since then, I think it has
appreciated quite a bit (almost doubled?).
I bought an '81 BMW R80G/S new for $4800 and sold it in the USA from
France at a firesale price of $4000 (in February 1998) with about 80k on
it. But I bought another '81 R80G/S new in '81 for $3800[1] and sold it
in '97 for $4200 with around 55k miles on it. I figure, on the pair, I
got about 135,000 miles over 16 years for about $200 depreciation. (And
if I had not had the one stored in a friend's garage an ocean away, I
never would have accepted that offer in the dead of winter.)
My best guess is that if you pay MSRP for a new BMW it will hold all of
it's value for the forseeable future. In that respect BMW's are the
best.
Besides, you can ride BMW's around corners at a spirited pace, all day,
for hundreds and hundreds of miles (a day), through the desert even, and
you don't need a pickup truck following you around. My R80G/Ss were
used for: sport touring, adventure touring, two-up touring (14
countries), dirt biking, road racing and commuting. Try that with a HD
and see what the resale value is.
For a picture of my R80G/S in roadrace trim, visit my web site. For a
picture of the SAME R80G/S way high in the air, go to the link "Table of
Contents" and scroll down to the bottom of that page.
http://www.deathstar.org/~flash
I had a Harley once... it was a horizontally-opposed, shaft-driven,
American-made, dead-nut copy of a BMW.
- RIDING and waving (not posing)
Flash - DoD #412
[1] The answer to the unasked question is contained in the DM against
the US$ in January versus October of 1981.
Steve Melander
>
> According to the now defunct BLVD magazine, the Honda
> Valkyrie, made in Ohio, has the highest domestic content
> of any motorcycle. (Using domestic content laws, a Honda
> Accord is an American car but a Ford Crown Victoria is a
> foreign car. Go figure.)
"Domestic Content" laws are a travesty. According to them, Chevrolets
built at the NUMMI plant in Freemont have a significantly higher
"Domestic Content" than the virtually identical Toyotas built on the
same line, by the same people, using parts sourced from the same
vendors. They were created and designed to appease "buy American"
fanatics, with very little regard for reality.[1]
Now, the Ford Crown Victoria [2](and its sister the Mercury Grand
Marquis) were *deliberatly* positioned as imports by Ford via the
domestic content laws. Can anybody answer why?
Steve 65
[1] Of course, very little of what emanates from Washington
on the Potomic has much regard for reality, but that's
another thread.
[2] I do love the irony of that this most iconic of
American automobiles should be named after a British
Queen.
James Clark
Steve Melander wrote:
>
> Now, the Ford Crown Victoria [2](and its sister the Mercury Grand
> Marquis) were *deliberatly* positioned as imports by Ford via the
> domestic content laws. Can anybody answer why?
>
Fuel mileage for imported and domestic lines must be averaged separately.
J Clark
Don
>buyers are Harley wannabes who can't afford to put out the big bucks.
You and I were in much the same situation lately; as I also had to
make the same kind of choice 'Shad'. I wanted a touring bike and was
really set on getting a GoldWing. It's a mighty nice bike.
The reason I am replying is because I also felt alot like you
regarding all the Harley bigotry. I heard so much of it while
examining brands that I began to resent it and began simply writing it
off as hype.
But, in my experience, you know who 99% of the hype really comes from?
Not bikers. It's from almost everyone else. My wife. My friends.
Relatives. Women are maybe the worst, as they seem especially
infatuated with HDs. My wife simply would not stand for my buying
anything other than a Harley. Even women that have no knowledge about
bikes and maybe have never even ridden one will still say they LOVE
Harleys. They really do.
I bet that all just pisses ya right off, doesn't it Shad? <g>
And, now that I own a Harley (98 Road Glide, Annivery Edition), the
'hype' comes from people on the street too. It's really wierd - even
up here in Canada, which is definitely not Yankee country. It seems
everyone LOVES those bikes. They ask to see it. They want you to
start it up to hear it. They want a ride to see what it is like.
People commenting while waiting at the stop lights about how much they
like your bike. Just going to a coffee shop, you can almost bet
someone will start talking to you about your bike (and often
digressing into a story about their first Harley way back when). Kids
in school buses literally cheering as you ride by. I shit you not!
You made a big mistake by letting your bias against Harleys get in the
way of your decision Shad. You have removed from yourself the
opportunity for so many conversations and interactions with people you
could have had otherwise. But then, maybe some people like it better
that way.
So, from experience and from someone who, by almost a fluke of fate,
took a slightly different turn down the road than you did, let me tell
you: The Harleys simply strike a cord in people that resonates
deeply. There is no doubt about it - Harley makes a beautiful bike.
Really like a piece of rolling sculpture, actually. Very pleasing to
look at. As I said, being from Canada, this is not just because it is
'American made'.
There is also another factor that affects some people that I have
spoken to; those that like the 'look' of a Harley and contemplate
buying a Japanese bike that is designed to copy the Harley look.
There is some mildly shameful involved in doing that. It's sort of
like buying one of those fiberglass body kits that you can put on a
Volkswagon frame to make it look like a Ferrari. When I pull into a
parking stall and some teens walk by and (as does occassionally
happen) ask, "Is that a Harley?", I respond "You bet!".
With a look-alike, I would always be saying "Not really" (to which
they would say, "Oh" and walk away right?). In fact, I think I would
eventually become very bigoted against Harleys after a bit of that and
feel the need to get into arguments about why my bike is just as good
- or better.
I think it is this overwhelming, on-the-street type of reaction that
causes some people (like you) to react with such vehement dislike for
Harleys, actually. If you've got one, it's no problem, but if you
don't you get tired of the obvious preference ordinary people feel
towards them.
I know this sounds sort of like an argument for posers, but the
statements above are not intended to be arguments at all. It is
simply the way it is. People react to Harleys (probably also
influenced by the mystique too) and, if the reader is perfectly honest
with him/herself, that is always a factor in human affairs. After
all, even though we buy clothes for their utilitarian value, the style
certainly plays into the decision-making and add to the pleasure.
Another thing. I know the "If you have to ask..." Harley rationale
might sound a little thin but I think there is something distinct
about the way Harley owners feel about their bikes and I suspect this
may be partly due to their much touted high resale value. The Harley
is almost like an investment, whereas other bike makes are more like
cars in the way they get 'used up' and eventually delegated to the
scrap heap (it's hard to become attached that way). With a deceased
owner, it's not hard to believe that some people at the grave side
will wonder, "I wonder who got his Harley?".
Alot of people don't save money in the bank, own homes etc. For such
people, the bike itself may be their only possession of real
consequence. With HD, you can always turn it into cash if necessary.
You HAVE something (I know that doesn't mean anything to big-bucks
guys like you). That makes it a bigger issue than the result of some
technical magazine product review.
This message is long enough, so I won't go into all the reasons why I
decided on the Harley in the end vs. the GoldWing. Suffice to say,
that I would have been very happy owning a GoldWing, but not nearly so
much as having an HD. It rides great, handles like a dream and the
service from the dealer is excellent. I hardly ever drive my car
anymore (although, with winter coming, I guess I will have to again
pretty soon).
I'm happy. My wife is happy. And I don't feel the need to post
messages like yours. Hey, maybe buying a Harley even helped to make
me a better person than I would have been otherwise! <tongue firmly in
cheek>
So, I wound up with a nice bike and, with the resale value factored
in, it probably costs me less money per year to own than the GoldWing
would have anyway. What could be better? One of the truly great
values out there, in my opinion.
SCN User
In a previous article, langkd_...@worldgate.com (Don) says:
>>I am really, really sick of people here who say that all Jap cruiser
>>buyers are Harley wannabes who can't afford to put out the big bucks.
I just chose not to lay out the big bucks. I'm picky about how I spend
my money. I remember when people were lay out $40-60 for Calvin Klein
jeans. I thought THGEY were idiots too! I own several pair, but I
didn't pay much for them. Unfortunatley they don't have sales of HD's,
nor can you find them in Thrift shops.:-)
>You and I were in much the same situation lately; as I also had to
>make the same kind of choice 'Shad'. I wanted a touring bike and was
>really set on getting a GoldWing. It's a mighty nice bike.
Goldwing a nice bike, but they are not all they are cracked up to be. I
hear people all the time tell me how "comfortable they are, just like
driving a car." What a pile of drivel THAT is!
>start it up to hear it. They want a ride to see what it is like.
>People commenting while waiting at the stop lights about how much they
>like your bike. Just going to a coffee shop, you can almost bet
>someone will start talking to you about your bike (and often
>digressing into a story about their first Harley way back when). Kids
>in school buses literally cheering as you ride by. I shit you not!
You're right! Nothing sounds as good as a Harley; unless it is a radial
aircraft engine! Think they are neck and neck when it comes to sound.
Of course HD engines are just a piece of a radial engine if you want to
look at it that way. I propbably like the sound as much if not more than
MOST people. I often ride close to HD's on the freeway for no other
reason than to hear that beautiful sound.
>You made a big mistake by letting your bias against Harleys get in the
>way of your decision Shad. You have removed from yourself the
>opportunity for so many conversations and interactions with people you
>could have had otherwise. But then, maybe some people like it better
>that way.
>
But I didn't have to lay out the BIG BUCKS up front. The reason I bought
my Goldwing was Honda came out with the GL 1500; added two
cylinders, a lot more cheap plastic, a reverse gear, and double the
price. That was when I went shopping for leftovers.
>deeply.
There is no
doubt about it - Harley makes a beautiful bike.
>Really like a piece of rolling sculpture, actually. Very pleasing to
>look at.
Agreed!
>is almost like an investment,
Is this a PROVEN fact or just hype?
>in, it probably costs me less money per year to own than the GoldWing
>would have anyway. What could be better? One of the truly great
>values out there, in my opinion.
OH, I don't know about that! I think boats and motorcycles have a lot in
common; high maintenance bottomless pits for $'s. It costs me a dollar a
mile to run the Goldwing.
shishi
--
"The thing that that impresses me about America is the way parents obey
their children."
Edward VIII
rona6
told by the dealer that I couldn't
order the bike. A certain day would be picked on which people could put
down deposits on the bike. I was told many of them "camp out" overnight at
the dealer to be the first ones in line.
Give me a break. The day I have to "camp out" at a Harley dealership to
plunk down $18,000 of my hard earned money is the day I'll go to my local
Honda or Yamaha dealer and purchase a clone.
Harley Davison can go to hell.
Ron
L.Harbour
myself. I called the local dealership to ask if there was one in stock I
might check out and was told no by the general manager, but that I could
come down to meet the staff and if "they liked me", they might consider
ordering me one (cash up front of course). After that, I decided to
continue to invest my hard earned cash in foreign-made bikes.
rona6 wrote in message <722b37$b2q$1...@as4100c.javanet.com>...
Don
Thanks. I found your comments on my message interesting Edward.
Maybe a few return remarks on what you stated:
>I just chose not to lay out the big bucks. I'm picky about how I spend
>my money. I remember when people were lay out $40-60 for Calvin Klein
>jeans. I thought THGEY were idiots too! I own several pair, but I
>didn't pay much for them. Unfortunatley they don't have sales of HD's,
>nor can you find them in Thrift shops.:-)
I can understand having a great deal of hesitation in tying up a lot
of $$$ in a bike too. But, unlike your analogy, the track-record of
Harley sales seems to indicate they are not in the category of a
'passing fad' - like clothing usually is. Can't repair jeans once
they get worn either.
But then again, according to the originator of this thread, money was
not an object (even though some of his later statements seemed to
vacillate on this point).
>Goldwing a nice bike, but they are not all they are cracked up to be. I
>hear people all the time tell me how "comfortable they are, just like
>driving a car." What a pile of drivel THAT is!
You bring up a good point here. I was tempted to include something
along those lines in my original message, because that did factor in
my decision to go with Harley.
The GoldWing is almost too nice. I suspect you know what I mean.
Actually, what follows may seem like such a silly argument that I
didn't want to venture into it in the previous message, but here goes:
Although I am now a computer programmer (self-taught), I spent the
first 13 years of my working life running heavy equipment (motor
scrapers and cats). I really liked the work (even if my back
eventually didn't).
Hearing the snort of those big diesels is like heroin. I think the
same probably applies to truck drivers too. That's a pretty large
part of why Harleys appeal to our 'type'.
When I sat on the GoldWing and heard its gentle, purring sound, it
said to me, "I'll be nice". When I sat on the Harley and cracked the
throttle the first time it says, "Let's get it on!". Makes you want
to ride right now. It really brings back the feeling of when I used
to run equipment; nothing nice about it - just unrefined, rude, brute
force. Like a D-9 push cat as it nuzzles up to a buggy's push-block
and the throttle is let go.
(Note to Steve Tuttle, if he's reading: Maybe this qualifies as
another addition to the "If I have to explain" explanation?)
It also seems to reveal something about 'who is in charge' at the
various bike companies. At Honda, the engineers and their pursuits of
perfection dictate the direction more strongly. At Harley it is the
customers. It also appears that Honda is learning that lesson with
their recent Harley-style V Twins. Totally irrational (like my
argument above), but that's what people want.
I'd hate to be in Honda's position because it takes a long time to
break out of being labelled copy-cat at this stage of their game. A
little like admitting defeat, but business rules dictate in the end.
Thanks goodness Harley did not go out of business in the 70's. If
they had, we would have never seen this continued trend because the
other companies appear to have been dragged kicking and screaming in
the direction of serving the customers' 'unsophisticated' and crude
preferences. But it was a close call for the benefits promised by the
free enterprise system. Now we still have choice; if people like the
Harley style, there is at least a candidate in the race.
That explains the sentiment in the ad that appeared on CNN awhile ago:
the one where Wall Street stood applauding as the new Harley Davidson
management team walked into the building (after returning their
company to its former glory and surprising profitability). What the
previous owners had done to the company in the 70's was such a crying
shame.
I wrote:
>>You made a big mistake by letting your bias against Harleys get in the
>>way of your decision Shad. You have removed from yourself the
>>opportunity for so many conversations and interactions with people you
>>could have had otherwise. But then, maybe some people like it better
>>that way.
You replied:
>But I didn't have to lay out the BIG BUCKS up front. The reason I
>bought...
<snip>
Yeah, like I said before, a lot of bucks to tie up. You and I are
probably in different situations. Myself, at the age of 43 after
working extremely hard for about 3 years to put myself into a good
income bracket (you know; a computer consultant and all this Year 2000
stuff about to come down the pike too), I just decided that now "I
want what I want and I'm going to get it". My friends like to chide
me (in a good-hearted way) about this being evidence of a 'mid-life
crisis' but, if the truth be told, that is not the real reason. It
just so happens that, for many people, it takes until about the age of
40-something before you can get exactly what you want. Before that I
couldn't. So I didn't.
What distinguished 'Shad' from me was that I knew enough to not be
fooled by outdated references to when Harley had quality problems in
the 70's. I knew better; the quality is very good now. For that
reason, I felt that Shad kind of cheated himself by not opening his
mind a little more.
I said:
>>is almost like an investment,
You replied:
>Is this a PROVEN fact or just hype?
Heh, heh. Welllllllll... Yes and no, I guess. Yes, partly because
if you buy a used Harley, you can't hardly loose. In the part of
Canada where I live, you cannot get ANY used Harley (in running order,
no matter how old) for under $10,000 (Canadian dollars). They just
don't drop lower than that. That's a pretty high threshold isn't it?
So, if done right, buying a used Harley comes pretty close to always
having 'money in the bank' so-to-speak. If you're lucky and bought a
new one at the right time and the right model, you might even make
money; considering that Hog prices were a lot lower back then. But
even breaking even is quite something. Basically, what it boils down
to is that you get to 'borrow' the bike for free.
My case is a little different. I wanted reliability for long road
trips, so going with 'new' was more attractive. I was willing to
loose 10 or 15 percent of the new purchase price for that privilege.
I also enjoy tormenting dealers when I have a warranty in hand. <g>
Historically, around here, a new Harley's resale price drops about 10%
the first year. It then levels out at 15% in later years and stays
there. If that trend continues, I might loose up to about $4,200 over
time. As someone who is used to regularly investing in computers,
that's not too bad.
I am not completely gullible, however. I realize that there must be a
'sweet spot' on pricing; after which this 10-15% rule may not continue
indefinitely. But it is the continued high prices for new models that
helps the used bikes keep their resale value isn't it? That's why I
find it puzzling when some Harley enthusiasts complain about the MSRP.
If it's high, it tends to protect their investment. I say, continue
to keep the production quantities low so that demand exceeds supply by
just a bit. After having already bought my bike, if Harley suddenly
doubled production and dropped prices, I would not be a happy camper.
I laid out $28,500 (remember, this is Canadian) for a demo model
(16,500 'gentle' kilometres - not miles - by the Harley shop owner)
equipped with about $4,700 worth of accessories. But then, it is a 98
Road Glide, Anniversary Edition. 1998 is the first year the Road
Glide was made; it has a plate on it that states only 800 were made
world-wide and that mine is number '351 of 800'. That, together with
the 95th Anniversary stuff on it, may help it retain its value. Maybe
not, but I tried. We'll see eventually, I guess. Just like cars,
something fancy or special is a good way to go, but who knows what
will become a classic or in high demand 10 years from now? What do
you think?
The wild-card in this is that the interest (and hence demand + price)
in Harleys is driven alot by nostalgia too. This applies to older
people, but what about the next generation of mature buyers? To be
honest, I haven't figured this out. On the one hand, the young people
seem to buy those 'crotch-rocket' style bikes in droves. But reaction
on the street from that same age group also tells me that they really
like the big Hogs (even if they don't necessarily buy them for
themselves). This is really something of a paradox actually. From
that, I deduce that those same young people will still want a Harley
when they get past their 'crazy' years. I never owned a Harley when I
was young, but I continued to like them all through the years anyway.
There's something authentic and timeless about a Harley that has
bridged a few generations already. I'm betting the trend will
continue, but I could be wrong.
Still, if I had bought the GoldWing, I would have still laid out about
$26,000. And it looses tremendously on resale value. So it could
very well be true that the Harley costs far less per mile. With
Harley, I may have won on both accounts: a) Got what I really wanted
and b) Did it for less long-term cost. That's why I said a Harley is
maybe still one of the truly great values in the market-place right
now.
I get the impression that, for many people, the high cost is hard to
justify because, after all, it is only a 'toy'. I, on the other hand,
use my bike as an almost complete replacement for a car (except for
when the snow flies, of course). Being a programmer working out of
the house, I just have to leave the home base a 2 or 3 times a week to
visit clients for meetings, and stuff. The laptop computer just gets
thrown into the tour pack and away I go. Put on about 4,000 Km
(mostly city) since September so far.
It probably doesn't hurt my professional image either because, in the
computer programming trade, being paid well equals being good in the
minds of clients (there is a lot of variation in programming talent
around - some are in high demand, others are not). The ownership of a
Harley sort of makes a statement on that point (not to be shallow
about it - that's just a part of the reality out there from a business
and strategic angle).
This whole thing is just win-win from any way I look at it. I
couldn't be happier with the choice I made. Maybe I'll even continue
listening to my wife a little more. <g>
Al Phillips
that bull either. But don't make the mistake of judgeing the bike by the
dealer. Sure, there are more than a few Harley dealers who exlempify the
arrogant customer-be-damned attitude, but not all are like this. You may
have to shop around a bit (I had to drive 50 miles past the closet H-D
dealership to find a customer friendly atmosphere), but they are out there.
Al
L.Harbour wrote in message <722eep$3...@news.southeast.net>...
Dave Stewart
Don wrote on Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:04:43 GMT: When I pull into a> parking
stall and some teens walk by and (as does occassionally> happen) ask,
"Is that a Harley?", I respond "You bet!".
Sorry to interupt, but my experience with those under 30 all like
and want sport bikes. No one wants to be like their parents.Check out
the music videos they watch, all crotch rockets. The X-generation is
definately growing up without the mistyk.
Don
> Sorry to interupt, but my experience with those under 30 all like
>and want sport bikes. No one wants to be like their parents.Check out
>the music videos they watch, all crotch rockets. The X-generation is
>definately growing up without the mistyk.
That's what I would have thought too Dave (it comes up again in a
reply I made to SCN User).
On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
bikes. But, on the other hand, I get more favourable feedback from
that crowd than any other. Go figger. There is definitely a strong
appreciation for Harleys from that generation.
Why they buy the crotch-rockets might be due to other reasons that
will change as they get older. When I was their age, I think I might
have been drawn to those bikes too.
Kawaone
>Date: 11/7/98 4:04 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <364435ad...@news.worldgate.com>
>People commenting while waiting at the stop lights about how much they
>like your bike. Just going to a coffee shop, you can almost bet
>someone will start talking to you about your bike (and often
> Kids
>in school buses literally cheering as you ride by. I shit you not!
Gee, all this used to happen to me when I rode my 87 250 ninja. An awesome
looking bike. People also come up and ask me about my purple ZX-6 all the time
too. I bet if you put a Harley, and Goldwing and a 250 ninja (new or old)
together and had people come up who had never heard of a Harley, most of them
would look at the ninja first. I believe it is the image of Harley Davidson
the people are attracted to, not particularly the bike. But, then I could be
wrong. Most housewives don't know what a Kawasaki is, but they all know the
word Harley Davidson. But getting back to the original thread I too would
probably get the real deal if I wanted a cruiser. Though if I was going to get
a cruiser it would be a muscle cruiser.
Marty
a.k.a. Kawaone
"Its a freedom that we all wanna know
And its an obsession to some
To keep the world in you rearview mirror
While you try to run down the sun"
"Wheels" Rhestless Heart
96 S-10 ZQ8
98 ZX-6
NiteHwk650
>plunk down $18,000 of my hard earned money is the day I'll go to my local
>Honda or Yamaha dealer and purchase a clone.
>Harley Davison can go to hell.
>Ron
Don't sugar-coat it, Ron.....tell us how you feel! :)
Steve
NiteHwk650
>... But, on the other hand, I get more favourable feedback from
>that crowd than any other. Go figger. There is definitely a strong
>appreciation for Harleys from that generation.
No doubt about it....Harleys are timeless....they are time machines - they
can take you back.
>
>Why they buy the crotch-rockets might be due to other reasons that
>will change as they get older.
Uh-huh....testosterone! At some time, we all experience the
"hundredmilesperhourwithmyhaironfire" syndrome.
Steve
(I got one hormone left and I'm saving it!)
Some Guy on a Bike
GMT with the following:
> Of course HD engines are just a piece of a radial engine if you want to
> look at it that way.
Actually, radial engines have a much different manner of attaching most of
the rods to the crank than that found in a Harley.
--
===========================================================================
Adam Wade CWRA #4 SWDL #2 espr...@winternet.com
Don
>I bet if you put a Harley, and Goldwing and a 250 ninja (new or old)
>together and had people come up who had never heard of a Harley, most of them
>would look at the ninja first. I believe it is the image of Harley Davidson
>the people are attracted to, not particularly the bike. But, then I could be
>wrong.
Yeah, I don't doubt that other bikes get a lot of comments too Marty.
I think there is something about the nature of a bike that, when
looking at it, a bystander has an easier time fantisizing themselves
hopping on it; compared to an automobile. A bike is 'open' and
inviting. You can see everything it has.
Like you say, the Harley has an 'image thing' going for it in the
minds of people. Alot of people know about the (artificially?) short
supply; making them seem a little like collector's items. Then there
is maybe also a little of a 'survivor' image - the only one left
standing after the Japanese bike onslaught.
>But getting back to the original thread I too would
>probably get the real deal if I wanted a cruiser. Though if I was going to get
>a cruiser it would be a muscle cruiser.
I'm guessing that I am not the only one that is not quite clear on
what you said, so I'll ask. You say that you too would probably get
the 'real deal' if you wanted a cruiser. What, in your opinion is the
'real deal'?
Some Guy on a Bike
1998 08:24:41 GMT with the following:
> On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
> bikes. But, on the other hand, I get more favourable feedback from
> that crowd than any other. Go figger. There is definitely a strong
> appreciation for Harleys from that generation.
I'm a Gen X'er, technically, although an old one. I have a thing for
standards, and I dunna LIKE crotch rockets. Cruisers have their moments,
but aren't really my cup of tea. Big-bore hooligan standards, thanks. And
I think the goth/club crowd generally looks more at Ducati Monsters and
T509s than they do at Ninjas and Katanas these days...
We're talking hipsters, not frat boys. I;{>
SCN User
In a previous article, langkd_...@worldgate.com (Don) says:
>On 8 Nov 1998 05:56:03 GMT, ZCL...@prodigy.com (Dave Stewart) wrote:
>On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
>bikes.
Wonder what percentage ofthem end up in the junk yards at an early age.
I watch the way a lot of those types ride. Dangerous to say the least.
>Why they buy the crotch-rockets might be due to other reasons that
>will change as they get older. When I was their age, I think I might
>have been drawn to those bikes too.
It could be becaue they have no taste and are young and stupid, at least
he ones that buy those god awful UGLY THINGS! I bought my first crotch
rocket when I was 50, but I bought it because I thought it looked nice,
was light, handled good and was quick. But I never rode it as a crotch
rocket! Didn't get rid of it until last year. Miss it at times, but the
tags and insurance on 2 cars and two bikes was eating me alive. Couldn't
justify that much expense for wsitting around most ofthetime. Now I'm
down to the Goldwing and 5 bicycles.
I have to like the way a machine looks before I could EVER consider
owning one. Will never own the 1500 Goldwings either; two reasons, too
much money and they are, IMNHO, ugly. They may ride nice, but I think
they are ugly. My 1200, OTOH, looks much nice than the 1500's.
harle...@my-dejanews.com
owned Harleys all my life 15 to date,,,and have had Jap dirtbikes they make a
hell of a bike too but NOTHIONG beats a Harlet for looks,sound and resale
its well worth the extra monet the last threeI have owned I have resold for $
3,800 in profit between the three try doing that with any other toy,,,and
they have come a zillion years in dependabilty too I have had to do nothing
other than schedualled maintainance to any of them yet,,,I have a 92FatBoy
right now for sale and have had offers of close to what I want which is $
2,000 over what I paind for it new and 20,ooo miles ago,,,Gotta Love it !!!
Harley Vroooooom!!!
>
> In a previous article, langkd_...@worldgate.com (Don) says:
>
> >>I am really, really sick of people here who say that all Jap cruiser
> >>buyers are Harley wannabes who can't afford to put out the big bucks.
>
> I just chose not to lay out the big bucks. I'm picky about how I spend
> my money. I remember when people were lay out $40-60 for Calvin Klein
> jeans. I thought THGEY were idiots too! I own several pair, but I
> didn't pay much for them. Unfortunatley they don't have sales of HD's,
> nor can you find them in Thrift shops.:-)
>
> >You and I were in much the same situation lately; as I also had to
> >make the same kind of choice 'Shad'. I wanted a touring bike and was
> >really set on getting a GoldWing. It's a mighty nice bike.
>
> Goldwing a nice bike, but they are not all they are cracked up to be. I
> hear people all the time tell me how "comfortable they are, just like
> driving a car." What a pile of drivel THAT is!
>
> >start it up to hear it. They want a ride to see what it is like.
> >People commenting while waiting at the stop lights about how much they
> >like your bike. Just going to a coffee shop, you can almost bet
> >someone will start talking to you about your bike (and often
> >digressing into a story about their first Harley way back when). Kids
> >in school buses literally cheering as you ride by. I shit you not!
>
> You're right! Nothing sounds as good as a Harley; unless it is a radial
> aircraft engine! Think they are neck and neck when it comes to sound.
> Of course HD engines are just a piece of a radial engine if you want to
> look at it that way. I propbably like the sound as much if not more than
> MOST people. I often ride close to HD's on the freeway for no other
> reason than to hear that beautiful sound.
>
> >You made a big mistake by letting your bias against Harleys get in the
> >way of your decision Shad. You have removed from yourself the
> >opportunity for so many conversations and interactions with people you
> >could have had otherwise. But then, maybe some people like it better
> >that way.
> >
> But I didn't have to lay out the BIG BUCKS up front. The reason I bought
> my Goldwing was Honda came out with the GL 1500; added two
> cylinders, a lot more cheap plastic, a reverse gear, and double the
> price. That was when I went shopping for leftovers.
> >deeply.
>
> There is no
> doubt about it - Harley makes a beautiful bike.
> >Really like a piece of rolling sculpture, actually. Very pleasing to
> >look at.
>
> Agreed!
>
> >is almost like an investment,
>
> Is this a PROVEN fact or just hype?
>
> >in, it probably costs me less money per year to own than the GoldWing
> >would have anyway. What could be better? One of the truly great
> >values out there, in my opinion.
>
> OH, I don't know about that! I think boats and motorcycles have a lot in
> common; high maintenance bottomless pits for $'s. It costs me a dollar a
> mile to run the Goldwing.
>
> shishi
> --
> "The thing that that impresses me about America is the way parents obey
> their children."
>
> Edward VIII
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Cully
NiteHwk650 wrote:
This makes me want to open a dealership, because I would treat my customers
really well. If I keep hearing stories like this surely there are people who
would want to do business with me....
Don
>
>>On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
>>bikes.
>
>Wonder what percentage ofthem end up in the junk yards at an early age.
>I watch the way a lot of those types ride. Dangerous to say the least.
Yeah. Where I live, I hear of a lot of accidents from young people
riding those things. There are certain areas of the city where they
tend to gather and race. Cops can't catch them. It's kind of a shame
because, for a young rider, some of those bikes have way too much
power. Nothing like a little showing off to create serious errors in
judgment.
I don't hear of many accidents involving people on big bikes (HDs,
GoldWings, etc.). Probably because the people riding are older.
> >Why they buy the crotch-rockets might be due to other reasons that
>>will change as they get older. When I was their age, I think I might
>>have been drawn to those bikes too.
>
>It could be becaue they have no taste and are young and stupid, at least
>he ones that buy those god awful UGLY THINGS!
Heh, heh. Well, like a comedian (Jay Leno?) said, asking an audience
composed mostly of baby-boomers, "You all probaby pride yourselfs in
being pretty good judges of taste, don't you?".
"Now, when you go home, take a look through your old photo albums and
see how you were dressed in the 70's."
He had a good point.
>I have to like the way a machine looks before I could EVER consider
>owning one.
Me too. An aesthetically pleasing appearance usually does follow from
a form properly arising out of function, so the looks shouldn't make a
sacrifice in performance if everything is done right.
Ron Christian
>I recently went to my local Harley dealer to purchase a new Road King. I was
>told by the dealer that I couldn't
>order the bike. A certain day would be picked on which people could put
>down deposits on the bike. I was told many of them "camp out" overnight at
>the dealer to be the first ones in line.
>plunk down $18,000 of my hard earned money is the day I'll go to my local
>Honda or Yamaha dealer and purchase a clone.
>Harley Davison can go to hell.
>Ron
Man, that's annoying.
I'm a Harley owner, and I have mixed feelings about this. One could
say that it's not Harley's fault, it's the current demand for the bikes
and gouging, unpleasant dealers that cause this kind of situation.
On the other hand, one could say it *is* Harley's fault for not keeping
up with demand and/or not exerting more leverage with their dealers.
(If Harley would sell factory direct at MSRP, methinks dealers would
fall in line right quick.)
But either way, it's a really crappy way to treat customers. If you hang
out in the Harley newsgroup, you'll hear a lot of old-timers saying exactly
the same thing. Had this happened to me, I would be riding something else
also. As it happens, (1) I bought mine slightly used (no waiting period)
and (2) I bought it at what appears to be one of the better shops.
People there are extremely cordial, even to my friend who still rides
a Magna and comes with me to the shop once in awhile. My 4 year
old daughter asks when we can go to the Harley shop because she likes to
look at the stuffed animals, clothes, stickers, and temporary tatoos.
(She also thinks the bikes are really cool and insists she will own one
when she grows up.) The employees are all very cordial to her, unlike
the Titan dealership a few miles away that made her stand just outside
the front door while I did business inside. (I never went back there.)
But even for all that, the shop charges significantly over MSRP, which
they will patiently explain is a matter of Supply and Demand. I find
this extremely annoying, as do most Harley owners if RMH is any
indication.
So, yeah, you hit on Harley's big weakness -- crappy dealers,
inflated prices. We all hate it. We all want to see it fixed. I
wonder if Harley is listening?
Ron (1200S)
--
The Christian Coalition boasts about 1.8 million members, or about .5 percent of
the population of the US, approximately the number of people who think they've
met Elvis. Other sources put their numbers at about 310,000, or slightly more
than the number of women who regret having sex with Clinton. -- Oliver
WarpTwelve
>>he ones that buy those god awful UGLY THINGS!
>
Of course, the kids think that a bunch of rugged individualists (tm) wearing
identical leather are pretty unfashionable. Sorta like the motorcycling
equivalent of those 80 year olds who buy a Lincoln with a fake convertible top
and drive in the left and lane at 55 mph and wonder why everyone is shooting
'em the finger.
I dunno. I like the looks of the Jap go-fast bikes. They seem to sell a few
of them, so someone else must like 'em. At least here in FL they do - I was in
some God forsaken place in Kentucky awhile back and found out that they didn't
sell many go fast bikes there. But the average rider in rural KY doesn't have
any teeth and can't read or write so I'm sure that they feel right at home on a
cruiser... <grin>
What I've alwaysfound to be so funny is that most of the kids don't pay any
attention to the Olde Pharts on cruisers. Couldn't care at all. But the
cruiser riders get all bent out of shape whenever they talk about squids. IMHO
a lot of the reasons why cruisers hate squids is that the squids are light
years quicker around corners and make the cruisers look like weaving old
drunks. 'sides, the squids have those cute little girls riding around with
them and the cruiser dudes usually have a middle-aged gal and the Olde Phartes
are jealous.
Personally, I don't have an axe to grind one way or the other. I ride a couple
of BMWs. I'll let you two groups fight it out; I'm too busy riding to be
worried about hurting the feelings of the squids or the cruiser wannabes.
sam mayberry
>
> ZCL...@prodigy.com (Dave Stewart) wrote:
>
> : Sorry to interupt, but my experience with those under 30 all like
> :and want sport bikes. No one wants to be like their parents.Check out
> :the music videos they watch, all crotch rockets. The X-generation is
> :definately growing up without the mistyk.
>
> to my Harley. They drool over my HD and I drool over their Ninjas.
> They will indeed buy a Harley someday, just as I have owned all sorts
> of bikes. You can never have too many motorcycles.
one (at least) of each is just about right. sam
sam mayberry
>
> I recently went to my local Harley dealer to purchase a new Road King. I was
> told by the dealer that I couldn't
> order the bike. A certain day would be picked on which people could put
> down deposits on the bike. I was told many of them "camp out" overnight at
> the dealer to be the first ones in line.
> Give me a break. The day I have to "camp out" at a Harley dealership to
> plunk down $18,000 of my hard earned money is the day I'll go to my local
> Honda or Yamaha dealer and purchase a clone.
> Harley Davison can go to hell.
> Ron
Rich Ireland
wrote:
> harle...@my-dejanews.com whiled away the hours on Mon, 09 Nov 1998
> 13:20:30 GMT with the following:
>
> > NOTHING beats a Harlet for looks, sound and resale
>
> Well, I don't know about the resale...
If you are making a 'For Sale' post, please put 'FS:' in the subject.
And for Ged's sake, it's 'Harlot'.
--
Rich (Just a little truth in advertising. Is that too much to ask?)
EOA#001 BWOB#42
Randy Davis
|In article <F22BB...@scn.org>, shi...@scn.org (SCN User) wrote: I have
|owned Harleys all my life 15 to date,,,and have had Jap dirtbikes they make a
|hell of a bike too but NOTHIONG beats a Harlet for looks,sound and resale
Agreed. However, you have to be aware that a lot of us don't ride for
"looks, sound, or resale", but instead for the thrill of actual performance...
Randy Davis
DoD #0013
(to mail, replace nospam with randy)
"But, this one goes to *eleven*!" - Nigel Tufnel, _Spinal Tap_ (paraphrased)
Kawaone
>From: langkd_...@worldgate.com (Don)
>Message-id: <3645f60a...@news.worldgate.com>
>I'm guessing that I am not the only one that is not quite clear on
>what you said, so I'll ask. You say that you too would probably get
>the 'real deal' if you wanted a cruiser. What, in your opinion is the
>'real deal'?
>
Sorry, I mean if I was going to get a cruiser it would be a Harley. I just
wish they made something besides big twins. Polaris promises they will
someday. It's personal bias, I guess. But, I just don't see what makes people
think cruisers look cool. It's like buying a ferrari without the bodywork.
But, then I never really "got" hot rods either. I think they are pretty but
not as cool as the above mentioned ferrari. Is it the shinyness of a cruiser
that people find pleasing to the eye? The semetry? To me you can just do so
much more with plastic than frame tubes, fork, wheels, and an engine. Now I'm
getting way off topic. I better stop now.
Some Guy on a Bike
13:20:30 GMT with the following:
> NOTHING beats a Harlet for looks, sound and resale
Well, I don't know about the resale...
Dave Stewart
> GoldWings, etc.). Probably because the people riding are older.
Wolfe Axe
>it's value for the forseeable future. In that respect BMW's are the
>best.
You sir are way...way....too intelligent & practical to be a part of this
discussion. You have completely avoided the "posing with fringy cheap
(curiously all foreign made) unsafe leather accessories & $20 beanie helmets(if
you have a $20 head- wear a $20 helmet) & "chicks" with skin like leather
part of the "Ride To Live"(?) crowd.
Hell, not once do you even mention eagerly shelling out hard earned cash
for cheaply made chrome bolt-on accessories that will make your howg look like
everyone elses.
You really don't get it! You are the type that would opt for accessories that
would actually improve stupid stuff like: brakes, handling,
performance.............sheesh! You just don't get it!
JW
Don
Exhibit 'A':
>Sorta like the motorcycling
>equivalent of those 80 year olds who buy a Lincoln with a fake convertible top
>and drive in the left and lane at 55 mph and wonder why everyone is shooting
>'em the finger.
<snip>
>But the average rider in rural KY doesn't have
>any teeth and can't read or write so I'm sure that they feel right at home on a
>cruiser... <grin>
<snip>
>the Olde Pharts on cruisers.
<snip>
>make the cruisers look like weaving old drunks.
<snip>
>Olde Phartes are jealous.
<snip>
Exhibit 'B':
>Personally, I don't have an axe to grind one way or the other. I ride a couple
>of BMWs. I'll let you two groups fight it out; I'm too busy riding to be
>worried about hurting the feelings of the squids or the cruiser wannabes.
Oh no. YOU don't have an axe to grind one way or the other. <g>
dog...@michiana.net
> I'm a Harley owner, and I have mixed feelings about this. One could
> say that it's not Harley's fault, it's the current demand for the bikes
> and gouging, unpleasant dealers that cause this kind of situation.
> On the other hand, one could say it *is* Harley's fault for not keeping
> up with demand and/or not exerting more leverage with their dealers.
The Motor Company could EXCEED demand with production, if they wanted to
do so. They've chosen, instead, to limit production to keep demand
strong for their bikes and to keep used bike prices high. It's
psychology--if you can't just go buy one, then they must really be worth
having, or some psycho-BS like that. Whatever. It's working. Frankly
I've got no desire to own a Harley, but I'm by far in the minority. So
HD gets away with its marketing philosophy (unlike Yamaha, which really
can't make R1s fast enough) and we motorcyclists get gouged. There, of
course, is a solution--don't buy Harley Davidson motorcycles.
I have a theory that when the yuppies bail out on motorcycling (and they
will--they never stick with anything very long) there will be a glut of
HDs all over the map, the demand for new bikes will decline, and
eventually the used bike prices will plummet. Then it will be only the
hard-core HD riders who own them, just like it was for more than 50
years.
JC
michael
>
> Ron Christian wrote:
>
> > I'm a Harley owner, and I have mixed feelings about this. One could
> > say that it's not Harley's fault, it's the current demand for the bikes
> > and gouging, unpleasant dealers that cause this kind of situation.
> > On the other hand, one could say it *is* Harley's fault for not keeping
> > up with demand and/or not exerting more leverage with their dealers.
>
> The Motor Company could EXCEED demand with production, if they wanted to
> do so. They've chosen, instead, to limit production to keep demand
> strong for their bikes and to keep used bike prices high. It's
> psychology--if you can't just go buy one, then they must really be worth
> having, or some psycho-BS like that. Whatever. It's working. Frankly
> I've got no desire to own a Harley, but I'm by far in the minority. So
> HD gets away with its marketing philosophy (unlike Yamaha, which really
> can't make R1s fast enough) and we motorcyclists get gouged. There, of
> course, is a solution--don't buy Harley Davidson motorcycles.
My understanding is that HD has been increasing production as fast
as they can, but they don't want a repeat of the AMF days...
> I have a theory that when the yuppies bail out on motorcycling (and they
> will--they never stick with anything very long) there will be a glut of
> HDs all over the map, the demand for new bikes will decline, and
> eventually the used bike prices will plummet. Then it will be only the
> hard-core HD riders who own them, just like it was for more than 50
> years.
Nah, I imagine a lot of non - HD types ( like myself ) will
jump on any surplus... hell, I'd love to have a Road King.
I'd even pay $4K for a nice one.... ;-)
-- Michael
John
You are James Wolstenwhatsit and I claim my five free laps of
Silverstone in a DB5.
Quinkman
Cully
Don wrote:
> >I am really, really sick of people here who say that all Jap cruiser
> >buyers are Harley wannabes who can't afford to put out the big bucks.
>
> You and I were in much the same situation lately; as I also had to
> make the same kind of choice 'Shad'. I wanted a touring bike and was
> really set on getting a GoldWing. It's a mighty nice bike.
>
Aye. That it is.
> The reason I am replying is because I also felt alot like you
> regarding all the Harley bigotry. I heard so much of it while
> examining brands that I began to resent it and began simply writing it
> off as hype.
>
> But, in my experience, you know who 99% of the hype really comes from?
> Not bikers. It's from almost everyone else. My wife. My friends.
> Relatives. Women are maybe the worst, as they seem especially
> infatuated with HDs. My wife simply would not stand for my buying
> anything other than a Harley. Even women that have no knowledge about
> bikes and maybe have never even ridden one will still say they LOVE
> Harleys. They really do.
>
I've heard this as well. And yeah, it seems a lot of the hype comes from
non-riders. I have to say that in MODO, most bikers don't care about
brand...just that you ride. My girlfriend has spent some time on
Harleys....she doesn't particularly like them, and doesn't understand why
so many women do. She's a Ducati fan, though...whole 'nuther can o'
worms....
> I bet that all just pisses ya right off, doesn't it Shad? <g>
>
> And, now that I own a Harley (98 Road Glide, Annivery Edition), the
> 'hype' comes from people on the street too. It's really wierd - even
> up here in Canada, which is definitely not Yankee country. It seems
> everyone LOVES those bikes. They ask to see it. They want you to
> start it up to hear it. They want a ride to see what it is like.
> People commenting while waiting at the stop lights about how much they
> like your bike. Just going to a coffee shop, you can almost bet
> someone will start talking to you about your bike (and often
> digressing into a story about their first Harley way back when). Kids
> in school buses literally cheering as you ride by. I shit you not!
>
Pretty bike. Glad you like it. I hate kids in school buses though...maybe
I'm just insecure....
> You made a big mistake by letting your bias against Harleys get in the
> way of your decision Shad. You have removed from yourself the
> opportunity for so many conversations and interactions with people you
> could have had otherwise. But then, maybe some people like it better
> that way.
>
I agree with this partially. I think one can limit oneself to experiences,
yes, but that isn't to say that there aren't DIFFERENT experiences that
can be had with another brand. BMW owners tend to be fiercely loyal, as
are Ducatisti and others. I've seen plenty of old Beemers and Trumpys
attract plenty of attention. It's not bad or good...just different. I
think it has more to do with an eye-catching motorcycle than whether it's
a HarTriumHonKawaYamaZuki.
> So, from experience and from someone who, by almost a fluke of fate,
> took a slightly different turn down the road than you did, let me tell
> you: The Harleys simply strike a cord in people that resonates
> deeply. There is no doubt about it - Harley makes a beautiful bike.
> Really like a piece of rolling sculpture, actually. Very pleasing to
> look at. As I said, being from Canada, this is not just because it is
> 'American made'.
>
I think that chord is something of a yearning...it's representative of a
conceived notion about America, or at least, an America they THINK used to
exist. I can't debate the accuracy of their belief, but if they dig it and
it makes them feel good, then more power to them. There's already a glut
of depression in this country.
> There is also another factor that affects some people that I have
> spoken to; those that like the 'look' of a Harley and contemplate
> buying a Japanese bike that is designed to copy the Harley look.
> There is some mildly shameful involved in doing that. It's sort of
> like buying one of those fiberglass body kits that you can put on a
> Volkswagon frame to make it look like a Ferrari. When I pull into a
> parking stall and some teens walk by and (as does occassionally
> happen) ask, "Is that a Harley?", I respond "You bet!".
> With a look-alike, I would always be saying "Not really" (to which
> they would say, "Oh" and walk away right?). In fact, I think I would
> eventually become very bigoted against Harleys after a bit of that and
> feel the need to get into arguments about why my bike is just as good
> - or better.
>
You had me up until here. There is nothing shameful in buying what you
want. In the case you cite above, the outcome is entirely dependent on
your positive/negative response. Sure, they might walk away, but does it
really affect your decision? I don't need a stranger to validate my
decision to purchase an 1100 Shadow or a Vulcan. If someone asked me,
standing in front of my Shadow, "Is that a Harley?" I would have to say,
"No, it's a Shadow" and leave it at that, or "I love this Shadow" and
leave it at that. I think half the brand-loyalty debates stem from people
needing to justify or defend their purchase and it simply is a moot point.
You buy what you like. I"m glad you like your Harley. I hope to see ya on
the road one day whenever I own a bike again.
> I think it is this overwhelming, on-the-street type of reaction that
> causes some people (like you) to react with such vehement dislike for
> Harleys, actually. If you've got one, it's no problem, but if you
> don't you get tired of the obvious preference ordinary people feel
> towards them.
>
If this is the case, it's more of a personal problem for him.
> I know this sounds sort of like an argument for posers, but the
> statements above are not intended to be arguments at all. It is
> simply the way it is. People react to Harleys (probably also
> influenced by the mystique too) and, if the reader is perfectly honest
> with him/herself, that is always a factor in human affairs. After
> all, even though we buy clothes for their utilitarian value, the style
> certainly plays into the decision-making and add to the pleasure.
>
Functional value works in here, too. Thus my cheap-ass work boots and
t-shirt/jeans wardrobe....hehehehe
> Another thing. I know the "If you have to ask..." Harley rationale
> might sound a little thin but I think there is something distinct
> about the way Harley owners feel about their bikes and I suspect this
> may be partly due to their much touted high resale value.
IMHO, the stock "If you have to ask..." answer is a loose translation for
A) I don't know how to communicate effectively, verbally or otherwise or
B) I want to be a snob, and feel the exclusivity of the brotherhood, but
rather than welcome you into a traditionally open "group" I'm going to
shun you with a disdainful remark. The resale value is a nice perk, but I
firmly believe that if RESALE value is a major factor in your bike
decision, you've missed the point entirely. Motorcycles are emotional,
passionate, things. Resale value puts a dollar value on those emotions. It
shouldn't matter. It does, but it shouldn't.
> The Harley
> is almost like an investment, whereas other bike makes are more like
> cars in the way they get 'used up' and eventually delegated to the
> scrap heap (it's hard to become attached that way). With a deceased
> owner, it's not hard to believe that some people at the grave side
> will wonder, "I wonder who got his Harley?".
I dunno. Dan and Adam are pretty attached to their respective rides. I was
pretty emotionally attached to mine before it was stolen, and I still have
a little hole in my heart for it. The graveside analogy can be equally
applied to a set of sought-after golf clubs, a rare coin collection, or
anything else where passion has been a factor. The term "investment" is
typically used as an analogy to "expensive and hard to acquire." In that
case, yes, a Harley is an investment, but a $500 rat bike is no less
emotionally appealing to its owner than an $18,500 Fat Boy. Investment is
in the eye of the checkbook holder, I think.
>
>
> Alot of people don't save money in the bank, own homes etc. For such
> people, the bike itself may be their only possession of real
> consequence. With HD, you can always turn it into cash if necessary.
> You HAVE something (I know that doesn't mean anything to big-bucks
> guys like you). That makes it a bigger issue than the result of some
> technical magazine product review.
>
This might be true, but if you're financially strapped, a bike might not
be the best decision for you, or it might even be the CAUSE of the
financial distress. That's why I'm still without a bike...ownership is not
an option, because I need a roof and food and clothing and some other
necessities. A bike may be necessary to maintain sanity for some people,
but no matter how much we romanticize it, bikes are luxuries, just as cars
are. We CAN live without them. Sure, you can turn it into cash. But you
can turn a LOT of things into cash. If the bike is my only asset, I need
to focus on some other things in life.
> This message is long enough, so I won't go into all the reasons why I
> decided on the Harley in the end vs. the GoldWing. Suffice to say,
> that I would have been very happy owning a GoldWing, but not nearly so
> much as having an HD. It rides great, handles like a dream and the
> service from the dealer is excellent. I hardly ever drive my car
> anymore (although, with winter coming, I guess I will have to again
> pretty soon).
> I'm happy. My wife is happy. And I don't feel the need to post
> messages like yours. Hey, maybe buying a Harley even helped to make
> me a better person than I would have been otherwise! <tongue firmly in
> cheek>
>
Excellent that you are happy. Congratulations.
> So, I wound up with a nice bike and, with the resale value factored
> in, it probably costs me less money per year to own than the GoldWing
> would have anyway. What could be better? One of the truly great
> values out there, in my opinion.
Thank you for a well-thought and well-written post. I don't agree with
you on several issues, but it's nice to see discourse without flames from
time to time.
<joke>And how much oil does that sucker leak?</joke>
-Cully, shooting for motorcycle solidarity, baby!
dod#2095 bwob#001 eoa#02
Cully
> T509s than they do at Ninjas and Katanas these days...
>
I saw the Monster Dark yesterday for the first time, and that was the first
thing I thought of...the second was Mike's post on "Why don't Goth Chicks Dig my
Ducati?"
Seen this bike? Matte finish, all blacked-out frame and wheels. Mean-looking.
Darth Vader's Hooligan Bike.
Cully
Don wrote:
> On 8 Nov 1998 05:56:03 GMT, ZCL...@prodigy.com (Dave Stewart) wrote:
>
> > Sorry to interupt, but my experience with those under 30 all like
> >and want sport bikes. No one wants to be like their parents.Check out
> >the music videos they watch, all crotch rockets. The X-generation is
> >definately growing up without the mistyk.
>
> That's what I would have thought too Dave (it comes up again in a
> reply I made to SCN User).
>
> On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
> bikes. But, on the other hand, I get more favourable feedback from
> that crowd than any other. Go figger. There is definitely a strong
> appreciation for Harleys from that generation.
>
> Why they buy the crotch-rockets might be due to other reasons that
> will change as they get older. When I was their age, I think I might
> have been drawn to those bikes too.
Speaking as a Gen Xer, on the younger side...
People identify with their contemporaries...I STILL remember the first
moto-mag I ever bought. It was the now-defunct "Cycle"...and it was a test
between the Hurricane and the Paso on the cover. I look at a Paso now (saw
one yesterday, matter of fact) and I get that "classic" feel that reminds
me of a being a kid. It has to do with identity...lots of people my age
like Harleys, too (I'm 24) but that faraway smile and look come with the
bikes that came up when they were kids. Not always, but often enough that
I can make an almost general statement about it.
Dan Nitschke
> You are James Wolstenwhatsit and I claim my five free laps of
> Silverstone in a DB5.
How about a Capri kitted up to *look* like
a DB5?
/* dan: The Anti-Ged -- Scary Git, IY (tm) #1, YJP #1, LCDB (tm) #1 */
Dan Nitschke *)(* peDA...@best.com *)(* el...@redbrick.com
=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=::=
Cherish well your thoughts, keep a tight grip on your booze; 'cause
thinkin' and drinkin' are all I have today. -- The Grateful Dead
Mike Gleavy
writes
>John wrote:
>
>> You are James Wolstenwhatsit and I claim my five free laps of
>> Silverstone in a DB5.
>
>How about a Capri kitted up to *look* like
>a DB5?
>
>
Don't you mean a bog standard escort RS into which you have dropped a
full race kit with Roll bars and harness? Or do you mean the turbo-
charged Metro?
--
Mike Gleavy
You must look out in Britain that you are not cheated by the charioteers
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 - 43 BC)
For info about sidecars see:
http://www.sidecars.demon.co.uk
Don
> Speaking as a Gen Xer, on the younger side...
>
>People identify with their contemporaries...I STILL remember the first
>moto-mag I ever bought. It was the now-defunct "Cycle"...and it was a test
>between the Hurricane and the Paso on the cover. I look at a Paso now (saw
>one yesterday, matter of fact) and I get that "classic" feel that reminds
>me of a being a kid. It has to do with identity...lots of people my age
>like Harleys, too (I'm 24) but that faraway smile and look come with the
>bikes that came up when they were kids. Not always, but often enough that
>I can make an almost general statement about it.
>
I was hoping a Gen-Xer or two would reply to 'theory' Cully. Maybe I
should down-grade my statement by a step: Seeing that almost all you
see on TV races and alot of other media is the speed bikes, it's
surprising that ANY Gen-Xers are interested in Harleys at all.
Don
>
> Thank you for a well-thought and well-written post. I don't agree with
>you on several issues, but it's nice to see discourse without flames from
>time to time.
Your welcome. I'm glad to see that, so far, no one has taken my
remarks to be too offensive. I like to explore ideas and the Harley
phenomenom is kind of intriguing in it own right, it seems.
><joke>And how much oil does that sucker leak?</joke>
Heh, heh. I looked underneath it in the showroom before buying. No
newspapers under it was a good sign right away! Besides, bikes don't
really leak - they just mark their territory, right?
>My girlfriend has spent some time on
>Harleys....she doesn't particularly like them, and doesn't understand why
>so many women do.
Maybe the other women were riding on Harleys that had the
rubber-mounted engine. But, then again, the vibra... Naw, I'm not
going to go there. <g>
>Pretty bike. Glad you like it. I hate kids in school buses though...maybe
>I'm just insecure....
No! I think it's always great if you can find common ground with the
young-uns. Bikes, in general, are good ice-breakers. Of course, our
age difference (I'm 43) maybe makes a difference here. Kids just
might treat guys my age a little better than a Gen-Xer because (I
suspect) they want to encourage people the age of their parents to be
a little more like them.
>I agree with this partially. I think one can limit oneself to experiences,
>yes, but that isn't to say that there aren't DIFFERENT experiences that
>can be had with another brand.
Agreed.
>> There is also another factor that affects some people that I have
>> spoken to; those that like the 'look' of a Harley and contemplate
>> buying a Japanese bike that is designed to copy the Harley look.
<snip>
>You had me up until here. There is nothing shameful in buying what you
>want. In the case you cite above, the outcome is entirely dependent on
>your positive/negative response. Sure, they might walk away, but does it
>really affect your decision? I don't need a stranger to validate my
>decision to purchase an 1100 Shadow or a Vulcan.
<snip>
True. Nobody has to be shackled with buying to please others. But
people are mean sometimes. I would not have bought a Shadow or Vulcan
anyway but, if I had, it would bug me that people indicated that they
thought I was trying to 'pretend' to have a Harley. I think that is
how some non-bikers view it. Sure its not fair, but it is a draw-back
that applies to any product where one manufacturer appears to be
copying another. When armed with little information, people generally
make judgments by following common rules like that. It's a big hurdle
for the Japanese to overcome.
Personally, I get some pleasure out of the fact that there is
something that the powerful, Japanese manufacturing system cannot seem
to take over. They have been so successful in dominating other market
niches that this is something of a testament to the deep roots of the
American biking culture. A little back-lash is at work perhaps?
"They conquer worlds and we fall back. They conquer whole galaxies
and we fall back. This far and no farther. The line must be drawn
here!" (Picard in that last Star Trek movie talking about the Borg)
<g>
>IMHO, the stock "If you have to ask..." answer is a loose translation for
>A) I don't know how to communicate effectively, verbally or otherwise or
>B) I want to be a snob, and feel the exclusivity of the brotherhood, but
>rather than welcome you into a traditionally open "group" I'm going to
>shun you with a disdainful remark.
After thinking about it some more, I partly agree. That is, I agree
that the "If you have to ask" slogan might be a little arrogant. In
my opinion, it's either:
a) Carefully calculated to achieve that effect or
b) Intended as just another way of saying, "How do you persuade
someone to like something like a particular kind of ice cream? You
either like it or you don't."
But, good or bad, slogans like that help to give a company an
identity. Any good marketing person would like to have a strong,
clear image for their product in the public's mind. Like the beer
commercials try to do right? Come to think of it, is there a phrase
out there that really 'says it' about Hondas, Triumphs, BMWs, etc -
and is firmly fixed in the public mind? If not, I'll bet the
marketers for those companies wish that there was.
>> Alot of people don't save money in the bank, own homes etc. For such
>> people, the bike itself may be their only possession of real
>> consequence.
<snip>
>
>This might be true, but if you're financially strapped, a bike might not
>be the best decision for you, or it might even be the CAUSE of the
>financial distress.
<snip>
I hope you understand that - unlike trying to propose a single,
magical 'answer' - some of my arguments are just little bricks that go
into making a larger wall. No single one is good enough by itself,
but they tend to build (I hope).
Lots of different types of people out there. Who's to say that making
a lot of money and buying a house is more important than buying a bike
and travelling all over the place with it? Word never heard by
someone on his/her death bed: "Gee, I sure wish I was able to spend
more time at the office.".
Not that I want to lead a young (24 yrs, right?) fella like you
astray! <g>
John
<Mi...@sidecars.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3649DA...@best.com>, Dan Nitschke <peDA...@best.com>
>writes
>>John wrote:
>>
>>> You are James Wolstenwhatsit and I claim my five free laps of
>>> Silverstone in a DB5.
>>
>>How about a Capri kitted up to *look* like
>>a DB5?
>>
>>
>
>Don't you mean a bog standard escort RS into which you have dropped a
>full race kit with Roll bars and harness? Or do you mean the turbo-
>charged Metro?
Any of 'em would be real neat....hey I could tell everyone about it
then :)
"Hey guys....guess who got to go around the field on an old bulldozer
today....yup, you guessed it ...me!!!"
BTW, where is the aforementioned dork at the moment?....I feel the
need to vent <G>
______________________
John T509
Some Guy on a Bike
10:19:05 -0600 with the following:
> I saw the Monster Dark yesterday for the first time, and that was the first
> thing I thought of...the second was Mike's post on "Why don't Goth Chicks Dig my
> Ducati?"
> Seen this bike? Matte finish, all blacked-out frame and wheels. Mean-looking.
> Darth Vader's Hooligan Bike.
I WANT. It's me, all over.
Where can I see one?
Peckham
>Don wrote:
>> On 8 Nov 1998 05:56:03 GMT, ZCL...@prodigy.com (Dave Stewart) wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry to interupt, but my experience with those under 30 all like
>> >and want sport bikes. No one wants to be like their parents.Check out
>> >the music videos they watch, all crotch rockets. The X-generation is
>> >definately growing up without the mistyk.
>>
>> That's what I would have thought too Dave (it comes up again in a
>> reply I made to SCN User).
>>
>> On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
>> bikes. But, on the other hand, I get more favourable feedback from
>> that crowd than any other. Go figger. There is definitely a strong
>> appreciation for Harleys from that generation.
>>
>> Why they buy the crotch-rockets might be due to other reasons that
>> will change as they get older. When I was their age, I think I might
>> have been drawn to those bikes too.
> Speaking as a Gen Xer, on the younger side...
>People identify with their contemporaries...I STILL remember the first
>moto-mag I ever bought. It was the now-defunct "Cycle"...and it was a test
>between the Hurricane and the Paso on the cover. I look at a Paso now (saw
>one yesterday, matter of fact) and I get that "classic" feel that reminds
>me of a being a kid. It has to do with identity...lots of people my age
>like Harleys, too (I'm 24) but that faraway smile and look come with the
>bikes that came up when they were kids. Not always, but often enough that
>I can make an almost general statement about it.
The bikes I pine for today are all the bikes that I didn't wad when I was
young. I guess that would be standards, mostly. Anything with balls I
twisted around one lamp post or another.
Peckham
Antony Espindola
>
> BTW, where is the aforementioned dork at the moment?
> ....I feel the need to vent <G>
Dunno, but he always posts his phone number if you fancy giving
him a ring ;-)
--
Antony. Far Up! Far Out! Far More!
RVF400RR :-) Nobody Does it Better
----------------------------------------------------------
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather,
than screaming in terror like his passengers.- Jim Harkins
----------------------------------------------------------
---------> I find your lack of faith disturbing <---------
-----------> http://www.Horrible.Demon.co.uk/ <----------
Kelvin Craig
> John wrote:
> >
> > BTW, where is the aforementioned dork at the moment?
> > ....I feel the need to vent <G>
>
> Dunno, but he always posts his phone number if you fancy giving
> him a ring ;-)
>
>
Maybe he just got bored and decided to go and wind up another NG.
Jonathon Green
>
> How about a Capri kitted up to *look* like
> a DB5?
Or, even more frighteningly a body kit to make a DB5 look like a Capri
:-)
--
Jonathon "JayGee" Green
"Death to all fanatics!"
Cully
Some Guy on a Bike wrote:
Well...the one I saw was at Al Lamb's Dallas Honda/Ducati on Tuesday, but I imagine
you can find a pic on the web. I'll hunt for one and see if I can get it to you.
Cully
Don wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:21:49 -0600, Cully <Cul...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Speaking as a Gen Xer, on the younger side...
> >
> >People identify with their contemporaries...I STILL remember the first
> >moto-mag I ever bought. It was the now-defunct "Cycle"...and it was a test
> >between the Hurricane and the Paso on the cover. I look at a Paso now (saw
> >one yesterday, matter of fact) and I get that "classic" feel that reminds
> >me of a being a kid. It has to do with identity...lots of people my age
> >like Harleys, too (I'm 24) but that faraway smile and look come with the
> >bikes that came up when they were kids. Not always, but often enough that
> >I can make an almost general statement about it.
> >
>
> I was hoping a Gen-Xer or two would reply to 'theory' Cully. Maybe I
> should down-grade my statement by a step: Seeing that almost all you
> see on TV races and alot of other media is the speed bikes, it's
> surprising that ANY Gen-Xers are interested in Harleys at all.
Not so surprising. I guess "kids" my age are just as conscious of what they
want in a motorcycle as anyone else. To say it was an image thing would be to
bring up a moot debate on Why People Purchase And Pose...
I would be a liar if I said that a lot of guys my age didn't purchase bikes to
attract women (I can think of two off the top of my head) but one went Ninja
and one went Heritage Softail. Wanna hear ironic? My sort-of-little-brother
(he's 20) is drooling for an old Norton Commando. Doesn't want anything else.
Cully
Peckham wrote:
> Cully <Cul...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >Don wrote:
>
> >> On 8 Nov 1998 05:56:03 GMT, ZCL...@prodigy.com (Dave Stewart) wrote:
> >>
> >> > Sorry to interupt, but my experience with those under 30 all like
> >> >and want sport bikes. No one wants to be like their parents.Check out
> >> >the music videos they watch, all crotch rockets. The X-generation is
> >> >definately growing up without the mistyk.
> >>
> >> That's what I would have thought too Dave (it comes up again in a
> >> reply I made to SCN User).
> >>
> >> On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
> >> bikes. But, on the other hand, I get more favourable feedback from
> >> that crowd than any other. Go figger. There is definitely a strong
> >> appreciation for Harleys from that generation.
> >>
> >> Why they buy the crotch-rockets might be due to other reasons that
> >> will change as they get older. When I was their age, I think I might
> >> have been drawn to those bikes too.
>
> > Speaking as a Gen Xer, on the younger side...
>
> >People identify with their contemporaries...I STILL remember the first
> >moto-mag I ever bought. It was the now-defunct "Cycle"...and it was a test
> >between the Hurricane and the Paso on the cover. I look at a Paso now (saw
> >one yesterday, matter of fact) and I get that "classic" feel that reminds
> >me of a being a kid. It has to do with identity...lots of people my age
> >like Harleys, too (I'm 24) but that faraway smile and look come with the
> >bikes that came up when they were kids. Not always, but often enough that
> >I can make an almost general statement about it.
>
> The bikes I pine for today are all the bikes that I didn't wad when I was
> young. I guess that would be standards, mostly. Anything with balls I
> twisted around one lamp post or another.
>
> Peckham
That had to hurt. While I was looking at that Monster Dark on Tuesday there
was a 750 Paso on the floor that really wrenched my heart. Heather was with me
and didn't quite understand why I was caressing and staring at this thing. I
had to explain the story to her, all the while thinking that a little paint,
and a little love would make that a nice, garage-appealing bike to own.
Chris Schachte
> langkd_...@worldgate.com (Don) whiled away the hours on Sun, 08 Nov
> 1998 08:24:41 GMT with the following:
>
> > On the one hand, Generation X is definitely choosing the racing-style
> > bikes.
>
> Big-bore hooligan standards, thanks.
I'm Gen X, and I'm with Adam. Give me a big torquey standard. Seriously,
someone please give me a big torquey standard. (ba-dum-bum!)
I'm excited about the new standards that are finally starting to show up in the
US, like the Bandits, the SV650 (mmMMmm!), and the Eddie Lawson replica. All
nice bikes, though I think the little fairing on the Bandit is pretty ugly.
--
Chris Schachte Grain Service Corporation/GSC Energy
mailto://ch...@hedger.com http://www.hedger.com/
Cully
>
> Maybe the other women were riding on Harleys that had the
> rubber-mounted engine. But, then again, the vibra... Naw, I'm not
> going to go there. <g>
>
Hey, Dr. Drew said that causes numbness....sure wouldn't want that to happen.
> No! I think it's always great if you can find common ground with the
> young-uns. Bikes, in general, are good ice-breakers. Of course, our
> age difference (I'm 43) maybe makes a difference here. Kids just
> might treat guys my age a little better than a Gen-Xer because (I
> suspect) they want to encourage people the age of their parents to be
> a little more like them.
>
Naw, I'm just insecure. There was a Sniglet for that once. "Brattled: The fear
that the kids in the school bus next to you are making fun of you." Lord knows
I dished out a fair amount of abuse, mostly because I resented being stuck in
the Great Yellow Fun Wagon.
> True. Nobody has to be shackled with buying to please others. But
> people are mean sometimes. I would not have bought a Shadow or Vulcan
> anyway but, if I had, it would bug me that people indicated that they
> thought I was trying to 'pretend' to have a Harley. I think that is
> how some non-bikers view it. Sure its not fair, but it is a draw-back
> that applies to any product where one manufacturer appears to be
> copying another. When armed with little information, people generally
> make judgments by following common rules like that. It's a big hurdle
> for the Japanese to overcome.
>
I still don't see ignorant disdain from other riders as a drawback. If they
really want to think I'm "pretending" to own a Harley then they are going to be
content in their little narrow view. It doesn't affect me one way or another,
and at least I'm out riding (metaphorically: I'm without a bike right now)
instead of sipping spritzers at the local Yuppie Watering Hole and TALKING
about the guy who has the imitation Harley. Fuck em'....I'm riding.
> Personally, I get some pleasure out of the fact that there is
> something that the powerful, Japanese manufacturing system cannot seem
> to take over. They have been so successful in dominating other market
> niches that this is something of a testament to the deep roots of the
> American biking culture. A little back-lash is at work perhaps?
>
> "They conquer worlds and we fall back. They conquer whole galaxies
> and we fall back. This far and no farther. The line must be drawn
> here!" (Picard in that last Star Trek movie talking about the Borg)
> <g>
>
A good point, and no one can question the loyalty. However, we must remember
that Japanese companies excel at taking someone else's technology and making it
at a higher quality for a lower price. Philips invented interactive CD-ROM, but
damn near every CD-ROM device is of Japanese manufacture. The same goes for
TONS of consumer electronics. I believe that motorcycles are just an extension
of this. And they, like HD, are making money. They don't have the image and
mystique, but I don't think you can find a single rider of HD or otherwise who
can tell you that Japanese motorcycles are unreliable and clunky. Face it, most
of the criticism of Japanese cruisers comes from people saying they are copying
HD...this may be true but I don't hear anyone screaming that a Shadow or a
Vulcan or a Virago is a "bad" motorcycle....just that it's a copy. That's not
enough to dissuade me from buying one. Indeed, if Buell was making a
super-kick-ass competitor to, say...the R-1, you can bet your ass I'd give it a
second look.
> After thinking about it some more, I partly agree. That is, I agree
> that the "If you have to ask" slogan might be a little arrogant. In
> my opinion, it's either:
>
> a) Carefully calculated to achieve that effect or
> b) Intended as just another way of saying, "How do you persuade
> someone to like something like a particular kind of ice cream? You
> either like it or you don't."
>
> But, good or bad, slogans like that help to give a company an
> identity. Any good marketing person would like to have a strong,
> clear image for their product in the public's mind. Like the beer
> commercials try to do right? Come to think of it, is there a phrase
> out there that really 'says it' about Hondas, Triumphs, BMWs, etc -
> and is firmly fixed in the public mind? If not, I'll bet the
> marketers for those companies wish that there was.
>
I agree with you. Since it's a marketing coup, let us also congratulate
Japanese designers for marketing a similar product, and making money at it
despite their detractors. A slogan is nice and sticks in people's minds, but I
think the slogan carries less weight dropping $10 to $20k on a bike than it
does on a soft drink or pack of cookies.
> >> Alot of people don't save money in the bank, own homes etc. For such
> >> people, the bike itself may be their only possession of real
> >> consequence.
> <snip>
> >
> >This might be true, but if you're financially strapped, a bike might not
> >be the best decision for you, or it might even be the CAUSE of the
> >financial distress.
> <snip>
>
> I hope you understand that - unlike trying to propose a single,
> magical 'answer' - some of my arguments are just little bricks that go
> into making a larger wall. No single one is good enough by itself,
> but they tend to build (I hope).
True. Sorry if I sounded a bit alarmist. I see your point. I just see (and I
think that Peckham will have something to say about this) that a lot of
consumerism and image-building encompasses not only motorcycles but cars and
houses...and too many people live way beyond their means (I used too...got me
in trouble...no more) in the quest for some perceived status in the eyes of
their peers.
>
>
> Lots of different types of people out there. Who's to say that making
> a lot of money and buying a house is more important than buying a bike
> and travelling all over the place with it? Word never heard by
> someone on his/her death bed: "Gee, I sure wish I was able to spend
> more time at the office.".
Good bloody point. Priorties do vary from person to person. Ever read the story
about the Norwegian guy who has been riding his Beemer for 10 years all over
the world? THIS is a guy with a single-minded devotion to his hobby. I doubt
he's carrying a mortgage, too. <grin>
>
>
> Not that I want to lead a young (24 yrs, right?) fella like you
> astray! <g>
Nonsense. I found temptation all by myself....
-Mike Hardcore-
: I saw the Monster Dark yesterday for the first time, and that was the
They should have just called it 'Monster Goth' or 'Monster Crow' instead
of 'Dark'. Why state the obvious when you should be Stating The Obvious.
I personally didn't like it. I like the contrast between the bronze trellis
frame and the black/silver of the engine, all offset by that oh-so-sexy
red. Every time I whip the cover off me Monster and -really- admire it
I see it's jewel-like quality. The black-on-black-on-black-on-black
does not allow your eyes to see all that beautiful attention to detail.
: first thing I thought of...the second was Mike's post on "Why don't
: Goth Chicks Dig my : Ducati?"
Squidly's has been hanging out at the clubs and doing more 'research'.
It's about time for a follow-up post.
: Seen this bike? Matte finish, all blacked-out frame and wheels.
: Mean-looking. Darth Vader's Hooligan Bike.
It'd look great with some fire-roasted open-end cans and a set of
black-chrome 'T509' bugeye lights. I can just hear
MM's 'the beautiful people' in my head...
-Mike-
--
-Mike- DoD 5010 - AFM 805 - http://www.squidlys.com
99 ways to phone in a pizza order:
7. Give them your address, exclaim "Oh, just surprise me!" and hang up.
Chris Schachte
> Cully <Cul...@hotmail.com> whiled away the hours on Wed, 11 Nov 1998
> 10:19:05 -0600 with the following:
>
> > I saw the Monster Dark yesterday for the first time
>
> I WANT. It's me, all over.
>
> Where can I see one?
http://www.ducati.com/img/bikes/98/bike16_394x259.jpg ?
http://www.ducati.com/html/bikes_98_main_uk.html ?
Unfortunately, it seems to be only available in the M600.
Luckily for me, I think I prefer the silver M900.
Or the M900 Monster Cromo. Oooooh.
http://www.ducati.com/img/bikes/98/bike09_394x259.jpg
Have you seen the MH900e? Kind of a cool retro concept, but I don't think I'd buy
one, even if it were possible.
http://www.ducati.com/html/bikes_mh900e_main_uk.html
andy the pugh
> The black-on-black-on-black-on-black
> does not allow your eyes to see all that beautiful attention to detail.
Sounds like it would suit me, I once painted my Z250 in three-tone
black, metallic black with matt black and graphite stripes.
Unfortunatly it sounds a lot better than it actually looked.
--
ap
Cully
-Mike Hardcore- wrote:
> Cully (Cul...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> : I saw the Monster Dark yesterday for the first time, and that was the
>
> They should have just called it 'Monster Goth' or 'Monster Crow' instead
> of 'Dark'. Why state the obvious when you should be Stating The Obvious.
>
> I personally didn't like it. I like the contrast between the bronze trellis
> frame and the black/silver of the engine, all offset by that oh-so-sexy
> red. Every time I whip the cover off me Monster and -really- admire it
> I see it's jewel-like quality. The black-on-black-on-black-on-black
> does not allow your eyes to see all that beautiful attention to detail.
Kinda like Buick did with the Regal GNX. I'm partial to the yellow color for the
Monster, though...
>
>
> : first thing I thought of...the second was Mike's post on "Why don't
> : Goth Chicks Dig my : Ducati?"
>
> Squidly's has been hanging out at the clubs and doing more 'research'.
> It's about time for a follow-up post.
>
Can't wait to read it. If Dallas would stop doing its best impression of Seattle
the bikes would come back out of the woodwork on the weekend and I could give
you the Texas Perspective On Goth Chicks And Their Respective 2-Wheeled Mating
Attractors.
> : Seen this bike? Matte finish, all blacked-out frame and wheels.
> : Mean-looking. Darth Vader's Hooligan Bike.
>
> It'd look great with some fire-roasted open-end cans and a set of
> black-chrome 'T509' bugeye lights. I can just hear
> MM's 'the beautiful people' in my head...
>
They actually protested the MM concert here. I couldn't believe it. Of course,
to really make that bike look streetfighter, buy a spent LAW launcher from the
local Army surplus store (they have them here all over the place) and mount that
somewhere on the bike.
> -Mike-
> --
> -Mike- DoD 5010 - AFM 805 - http://www.squidlys.com
> 99 ways to phone in a pizza order:
> 7. Give them your address, exclaim "Oh, just surprise me!" and hang up.
Cully -DoD 2095 - BWOB 001 - EOA 02
Rick Damiani
<ch...@SPAMMOFF.hedger.com> wrote:
>Have you seen the MH900e? Kind of a cool retro concept, but I don't think I'd buy
>one, even if it were possible.
>
>http://www.ducati.com/html/bikes_mh900e_main_uk.html
It looks like it isn't all there. A very strange looking bike.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast ..................... Rick Damiani
and no one will talk to a host that's close .... ri...@nospam.paton.com
Unless the host (that isn't close) ......... ri...@nospam.earthlink.net
is busy, hung or dead .................................................
John
<Ant...@Netscape.net> wrote:
>John wrote:
>>
>> BTW, where is the aforementioned dork at the moment?
>> ....I feel the need to vent <G>
>
>Dunno, but he always posts his phone number if you fancy giving
>him a ring ;-)
That's already been done hasn't it? Fuck, I laughed about that!
Hohohohohohoho hohohohohoho poor Jamie :)
________________
John
John
<jonatho...@virgin.net> wrote:
>Dan Nitschke wrote:
>>
>
>> How about a Capri kitted up to *look* like
>> a DB5?
>
>Or, even more frighteningly a body kit to make a DB5 look like a Capri
>:-)
Oooh yeah....a MK1 1300L would be reeeaal coool! Will it have furry
dice and rear window louvres too.....and crossply tyres?
_______________________
John T509
Trevor Dennis
>Dunno, but he always posts his phone number if you fancy giving
>him a ring ;-)
Give it to Rax the newbie. He
likes a nice chat on the phone.
--
Trevor Dennis /`\ .(o~)-(o~). /`\ tre...@tdennnis.demon.co.uk
The Polite Brit / , \( _______ )/ , \ tden...@ford.com
OGH #1 BS #1 ___/ /_\ /`"-------"`\ /_\ \__ Southern England
TL1000R jgs`~//^\~_`\ <__ __> /`_~/^\\~`
`~//^\\~`~//^\\~`
Trevor Dennis
>John wrote:
>
>> You are James Wolstenwhatsit and I claim my five free laps of
>> Silverstone in a DB5.
>
>a DB5?
You're taking this Honoury Brit thing a bit far Dan.
I mean how the hell do you know about Capris and DB5s
Neil Murray
> Trevor Dennis said in <cDlXfkBR...@tdennis.demon.co.uk>:
>
> >Antony Espindola said about JW
> >
> >>Dunno, but he always posts his phone number if you fancy giving
> >>him a ring ;-)
> >
> >Give it to Rax the newbie. He
> >likes a nice chat on the phone.
>
> ROFL....
>
>
> It's easy to find Rax's number it's all over his www site and at his old
> one at www.tla-net.demon.co.uk/
>
> Silly old Raxxykins.
I'd describe him as a bear of very little brain, but BB has already got
dibs on that.
Amazing how some people can be so immature, isn't it?
--
Neil B120 750S S GT750 CB400F CD175
The Older Gentleman
BOF #30 GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1
Rambling free
John
(Simon Atkinson) wrote:
>Neil Murray said in
><1dii0me.g9...@host5-99-47-200.btinternet.com>:
>
>
>>>
>>> Silly old Raxxykins.
>>
>>I'd describe him as a bear of very little brain, but BB has already got
>>dibs on that.
>>
>>Amazing how some people can be so immature, isn't it?
>
>
>Don't you start abusing him, he's mine.
(looking around) Who the fuck is Rax?
I must have missed something somewhere.
Little novel information there :)
____________________
John
Neil Murray
> Neil Murray said in
> <1dii0me.g9...@host5-99-47-200.btinternet.com>:
>
>
> >>
> >> Silly old Raxxykins.
> >
> >I'd describe him as a bear of very little brain, but BB has already got
> >dibs on that.
> >
> >Amazing how some people can be so immature, isn't it?
>
>
> Don't you start abusing him, he's mine.
Come on, Simes. Share & share alike.
Michael Conner
tell right away because there leathers are not even broken in yet and they
ride like crap.
I do love em I just cannot afford one yet
Uralholic
Harleys over the past 30 some years. No offense ment to Harly owners at all,
but it seems that at least around here, there are an aweful lot of Harley
owners that have never owned a motorcycle previous to a couple of years ago,
do'nt seem to know much about them and will probably sell them as soon as the
fads over. I know this is not true of all H-D owners but it's kind of hard to
sort them out.