1 down - X up
Mickey Mestel
seems like it would be easier to have neutral right at the bottom, and shift
everything up. Maybe it's easier to push down with your foot while the other
is on the ground, before you are moving and balanced on the bike. Maybe
years and years ago some engineer fresh in the department, hired straight
from sweeping the floors, didn't quite have a grasp on things like gears,
shafts, forks and dogs, and hence we are all now live with and accecpt a
mistake that was easier to push through the lines then to stop and correct.
Any ideas? Hard facts? Fictional diatribes? Pure nonsense?
Mickey Mestel
...!sun!plx!mickm
"I swear it's faster, or is it just louder?"
Arthur J. Byrnes
>Just a thought. Any ideas on why shift patterns are 1 down - X up. Sort of
>seems like it would be easier to have neutral right at the bottom, and shift
>everything up. Maybe it's easier to push down with your foot while the other
And why we are on this subject, let me ask a related question;
Are all shifters now 1 down x up? I (think I) remember owning
a machine during the early 70's that had a different pattern.
I ask because when a bought my Silver Wing in 83, I asked the
guy, "What is the shift pattern?" The look he gave me was as
if I had asked "What is water?".
So anyway, have all shifters been the same for a long time, or
is there a famous date where everyone changed?
>Mickey Mestel
Arthur
Arthur J. Byrnes
UUCP: ...!mcnc!ge-rtp!ge-dab!byrnes
GEnet: byrnes@advax
Disclaimer; These views are those only of the author, Arthur.
--
Arthur J. Byrnes
UUCP: ...!mcnc!ge-rtp!ge-dab!byrnes
GEnet: byrnes@advax
Disclaimer; These views are those only of the author, Arthur.
Scott Perman
> Just a thought. Any ideas on why shift patterns are 1 down - X up. Sort of
I don't have any hard facts, but my guess is that it makes it much easier
^^^^
to find first gear. If your are down shifting for a turn ( or for whatever
reason) you wouldn't want to accidentally shift into neutral. You also want to
make sure you are in first gear when starting from a stop.
Robert Christ
>In article <22...@plx.UUCP>, mi...@plx.UUCP (Mickey Mestel) writes:
>> Just a thought. Any ideas on why shift patterns are 1 down - X up. Sort of
It's the law. The feds mandated it.
Tom Dietrich
Why haven't we heard from Brucer on this?????? As I remember, and it's
been too long since I rode mine, but as I remembered, Norton's were 1
up and three down!!!!!
Tom Dietrich
Chuck Karish
(Arthur J. Byrnes) wrote:
>Are all shifters now 1 down x up? I (think I) remember owning
>a machine during the early 70's that had a different pattern.
I'll bet it had the shifter on the right and the brake on the left,
too. Since 1975, all new bikes sold in the US have the shifter on the
left and the brake on the right, and shift down for first and up to
cycle through the rest. Mandated by the CPSC or the NHSTA or some such
Federal agency. The idea was to make control layouts standard so people
wouldn't crash on a new bike (shift up instead of down, stand
on the shift lever for a panic stop, etc.)
Before then, many combinations of location and pattern were available.
Most British bikes had the shifter on the right, but some shifted up
then down (Norton, Enfield) and some shifted down then up (BSA,
Triumph). I think my 1973 Ducati shifted down then up; I'm sure the
shifter was on the right. My '75 had cross-shafts for the brake and
the shifter to transfer the lever to the other side without modifying
too much of the bike. '75 Triumphs had a similar setup for the
shifter: the shift lever was on the left, but it turned a shaft that
went all the way across the transmission to actuate the shifting
mechanism, which was on the right side of the transmission where it had
always been.
Chuck Karish kar...@mindcraft.com
(415) 323-9000 kar...@forel.stanford.edu
Scott R. Nelson
> Just a thought. Any ideas on why shift patterns are 1 down - X up. Sort of
> seems like it would be easier to have neutral right at the bottom, and shift
> everything up.
>
For dirt bikes it makes a big difference if you can't shift down
past first gear into neutral. My first bike was a Kawasaki 100 that
had neutral on the bottom. I can think of several times on hills
when it was running out of power and I wanted a lower gear but just
found neutral instead. Have you ever tried riding a bike backwards
down a hill?
Later dirt bikes had first on the bottom and I almost never experienced
any unwanted neutrals.
It only makes sense to have downshifts go down and upshifts go up,
so that is a good reason for the direction currently in use.
Having the shifter on the left makes it easier to coordinate with
driving a car. If the right foot mean brake in both cases it
reduces the confusion. I remember test riding an old Bultaco and
braking on a hill by shifting down (with no clutch of course)
because I couldn't adjust to using opposite feet for the shifter and
brake. I figured it would be hopeless to own a bike with opposite
controls like that.
I'm glad that most bike manufacturers have standardized. You can
always spot someone who did most of his riding over 20 years ago
because he'll verify which way the shifter goes. "One down and four
up, right?"
---
Scott R. Nelson ARPA: srne...@sun.com
Sun Microsystems UUCP: <most-backbone-sites>!sun!srnelson
"Proofread carefully to see if you words out."
Gord Broom
(Arthur J. Byrnes) wrote:
>Are all shifters now 1 down x up? I (think I) remember owning
>a machine during the early 70's that had a different pattern.
Then of course there's Vespas, where the shifter is on the left handgrip. They
aren't 1 down - X up; more like 1 back - X forward, if you watch the top of
your left hand.
Flames about Vespas not being motorcycles to /dev/null.
Honda or Yamaha scooter flames welcome :->
Gord Broom
Frank Ball
*And why we are on this subject, let me ask a related question;
*Are all shifters now 1 down x up? I (think I) remember owning
*a machine during the early 70's that had a different pattern.
*I ask because when a bought my Silver Wing in 83, I asked the
*guy, "What is the shift pattern?" The look he gave me was as
*if I had asked "What is water?".
*So anyway, have all shifters been the same for a long time, or
*is there a famous date where everyone changed?
Norton's used 1 up 3 down. Some old Kawasaki's were 5 up, neutral at
the bottom.
The feds made a law that required all new bikes in the US to have
left side shift, up for a higher gear (neutral at the bottom may still
be ok). This law was passed in about '75 or mabye a couple years earlier.
Frank Ball fra...@hpsad.HP.COM
Steven Aucella
he's still typing.....
- steve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Shut up," he explained. ->8-<o
~
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RobinsonB
> In article <12...@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> t...@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Tom Dietrich) writes:
> >
> >Why haven't we heard from Brucer on this?????? As I remember, and it's
> >been too long since I rode mine, but as I remembered, Norton's were 1
> >up and three down!!!!!
> > Tom Dietrich
>
>
> he's still typing.....
>
> - steve
Actually, I don't have any knowledge, just opinions :->.
I don't actually have a lot to contribute to this thread, but ...
I *think* Norton went to 1-down 3-up on the left in about 1970,
prior to that they were 1-up and 3-down on the right. Does this
ring a bell with anyone? Certainly, having a gear at each end
makes sense, especially in the dirt where you might not be certain
what gear you are currently in (which), and would find it easy to
shift into neutral half-way up some egregious hill (ouch!).
Probably there's some techno-mech reason that you have to have
gears on each end, but I don't know it.
--
66
>
^ .................. brucer
Tom Borman
Nortons (Commandos at least) were right side shift with a one up and
three down pattern up thru 1974. In 1975, they changed over to left side shift
with a one down, three up pattern. There was some kind of extra shaft that
brought the shifting input back over to the "correct" side.
Knowledgeable Norton fanatics mumbled something about "standards" when I asked
about it. Hmmm.....
I *still* occasionally find myself applying the rear brake smartly at upshift
time. :-) :-) It's pretty silly to see, the cause of a much red face inside my
helmet. :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Borman
Fully qualified graduate of the Northern Riders Motorcycle Association's
"Pond Scum and Swine Training" - the only such graduate south of
Athabasca, Alberta.
Neener.
Metaphor Computer Systems
Mt View, CA (415) 961-3620
(bor...@twisted.metaphor.com <or> {...}!decwrl!metaphor!borman)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Upchurch
Nortons had the 1 up - 3 down pattern until 1975 when the feds
mandated the change. My '75 850 Mk III is set up like a japanese
bike. My '74 850 Mk II was "backwards" as well has having the shifter
on the "wrong" side. I wanted to keep both bikes but going from
one to the other almost killed me so I sold the '74 to a friend.
I learned to ride on my brother's 750 combat and had a tough time
riding a friend's honda afterwards.
Steve Upchurch
jon.peticolas
> The feds made a law that required all new bikes in the US to have
> left side shift, up for a higher gear (neutral at the bottom may still
> be ok). This law was passed in about '75 or mabye a couple years earlier.
>
> Frank Ball fra...@hpsad.HP.COM
My best guess would be for '76.
This supposition based on the the pictures in my Sportster
shop manuel that show right-shift on Sporties from '71 to '76.
-Jon
Harleys don't leak oil
(they just like to mark their spot)
Chris King
>been too long since I rode mine, but as I remembered, Norton's were 1
>up and three down!!!!!
As Mr. BobW Christ says, the feds mandated this pattern in 1975. Before
that date alot of English stuff and Italian stuff was on the left and
upside down. My `75 Duck they kludged the change by running a shaft from one
side of the gear box to the other. They fixed it right in `76.
Chris
Ross Alexander
The 750, 750 Combat, and 850 Mk II models do in fact shift this way - 1 up,
three down, on the right. I like this pattern a lot; it seems more natural
to prod that lever down, and easier.
Just to screw things up, the 850 Mk III (electric start :-P) models shift
1 down, 3 up on the left. Oh well.
And yes, where the h*ll _is_ Brucer?
--
--
Ross Alexander (403) 675 6311 r...@aungbad.AthabascaU.CA VE6PDQ
Ross Alexander
>Tom Borman
> Fully qualified graduate of the Northern Riders Motorcycle Association's
> "Pond Scum and Swine Training" - the only such graduate south of
> Athabasca, Alberta.
Hey, is this some kind of pointed jab at loveable _me_??
Or are you making fun of Phil Brown and Lashiuk??
>Neener.
ps: Lyndon Nerneberg is talking about getting a bike. RD400 I
think... he's a light guy.
a...@minster.york.ac.uk
I used to (occasionally) ride a friend's Suzuki B120 (120cc 2-stroke single
commuter bike). It was ratty and "interesting" in many ways, but it is the
gearbox that is relevant here. Normal (for a Japanese bike) left hand shift
lever, but four speed box arranged as four down, with neutral at the top.
Made finding neutral easy even with a dragging clutch and poor gearbox
(just keep moving the lever up until it wouldn't go any further), and
you would fall off a B120 before you needed a racing change into 1st
(good for about 15mph?). However, the down-for-up arrangement was a trap
for the unwary: that the bike could survive being wound up in third then
dropped into second when aiming for top was a tribute to something.
Perhaps bore wear and lack of compression, since I don't even remember
it locking the back wheel. And there was no tacho to be damaged by the overreving!
So there doesn't seem to be any mechanical reason that demands
a gear at each end of the shift pattern.
Andy H.
(a...@uk.ac.york.minster)
Scott Baldwin
>In article <22...@plx.UUCP>, mi...@plx.UUCP (Mickey Mestel) writes:
>The most important advantage is that it allows for quicker up-shifts while
>accelerating. Finding neutral isn't that much different than the (now)
Keith Code told me, and I agree, the main advantage of moving the lever up
to downshift is that it's easier to do while braking, as your foot is
moving forward under braking forces.
My personal speculation of the origin of moving the lever up to upshift
is that it came from Honda, who were trying to make things simpler so non-riders
would be attracted to his machines in the early '60s. Sort of "Ah... move
lever up to upshift, E-Z for car people to remember...."
I think it was a mistake. I'm now stuck with bikes that are harder to
shift than they could be; and anyone who needed the help of "up to upshift"
had an increased tendency towards losing control and inflating motorcycle
accident statistics.
I think the shrinking of the industry in the last
few years has been simple readjustment to *riders* owning bikes, and the
car people bailing out. Without the car people crashing their brains out
the motorcycle accident rate has steadily declined. We aren't being shorted
on machinery to ride by the readjustment, either. Sport bikes are faster
than ever, Harleys more reliable than ever, the Italian bike industry is
having a rebirth, and you can even buy a new Norton if you want.
--
Q: So, has success changed you?
Bobby Weir: Yeah, it's changed me. You know how when you're eating pistacios
and you find one that's hard to get the shell open? Well, I
don't bother with them anymore. || Have fun, RoseRunner ||
Tom Borman
>bor...@flamingo.metaphor.com (Tom Borman) writes:
>>Tom Borman
>> Fully qualified graduate of the Northern Riders Motorcycle Association's
>> "Pond Scum and Swine Training" - the only such graduate south of
>> Athabasca, Alberta.
>
>Hey, is this some kind of pointed jab at loveable _me_??
>Or are you making fun of Phil Brown and Lashiuk??
>
Ft. MacMurray (SynCrude, doncha know).
These boys bark at, growl at and crawl on all fours after women. I don't
understand it, but the recipients seemed to enjoy it all.
I, in cultured stupification, merely watched.
They then undertook the task of "educatin'" me. Hmmmm, havta ask my sweetie
whether it worked.
>>Neener.
>
>ps: Lyndon Nerneberg is talking about getting a bike. RD400 I
>think... he's a light guy.
>--
>--
>Ross Alexander (403) 675 6311 r...@aungbad.AthabascaU.CA VE6PDQ
Who are you really ? And what have you done with Ross Alexander ?
And now for something completely different....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Borman
Fully(?!) qualified graduate of the Northern Riders Motorcycle Association's
"Pond Scum and Swine Training" - the only such graduate south of
Athabasca, Alberta. ...but then there's Ross...
Robert Christ
>My personal speculation of the origin of moving the lever up to upshift
>is that it came from Honda, who were trying to make things simpler. . .
ya, and honda had heel-toe shifters too. press with the heel to up-shift,
press with the toe to down-shift. but those shifters weren't very
popular. everyone cut the heel half of the shifter off.
Ross Alexander
]In article <15...@atha.AthabascaU.CA] r...@cs.AthabascaU.CA writes:
]]Hey, is this some kind of pointed jab at loveable _me_??
]]Or are you making fun of Phil Brown and Lashiuk??
]Nah, once upon a BC Ferry I fell in with some disreputable characters - from
]Ft. MacMurray (SynCrude, doncha know).
Ft. McMurray d*mmit. Did they rattle on about getting pissed at the
Peter Pond ?? Otherwise they aren't _real_ Fort Mudder's.
]These boys bark at, growl at and crawl on all fours after women. I don't
]understand it, but the recipients seemed to enjoy it all.
Hah!! Then you're ready for the run up to Ft. St. John; they bark, slaver,
& c. at _sheep_ in that neck of the woods. From there to Dawson City it's
all downhill.
]I, in cultured stupification, merely watched.
]They then undertook the task of "educatin'" me. Hmmmm, havta ask my sweetie
]whether it worked.
If you have to ask, it's toooo late.
]]ps: Lyndon Nerneberg is talking about getting a bike. RD400 I
]]think... he's a light guy.
]]Ross Alexander (403) 675 6311 r...@aungbad.AthabascaU.CA VE6PDQ
]Who are you really ? And what have you done with Ross Alexander ?
Oh, I'm an outpost of Brahms Gang Posting Central (Northern Division).
Modified Henry Spencer AI code, don'cha know??
]And now for something completely different....
Nice .sig; I'm flattered. C'mon up in summer (usually, the snow is
gone by May or so) and we'll all go terrorize the Mudder's. We're
easy to find - draw a big X through the corners of Alberta, then drive
to the intersection of the two lines. I'll be in the Union Hotel.
Look for the red MkII Commando with the interstate tank and Dunstall
exhausts (did you know that you can inspect the exhaust valves by
looking through a Dunstall glasspack muffler?? It's true!! :-).
I'd love to stay and chat, but I have to go to a party or something.