Another Bike Repair Page
Road Glidin' Don
actually managed to get some work done on my bikes. And even had time
to document it on the Web site.
The one below has to do with diagnosing the cause of a weak clutch on
the Street Bob (over-heated):
http://www.xidos.ca/Technical/RepairitYourself/ClutchRepairStreetBob/tabid/191/Default.aspx
Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
appreciation, of course.
TOG@Toil
> With all the extra time on my hands during this holiday season, I
> actually managed to get some work done on my bikes. And even had time
> to document it on the Web site.
>
> The one below has to do with diagnosing the cause of a weak clutch on
> the Street Bob (over-heated):
>
>
> Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
> appreciation, of course.
That's quite the finest 'special tool' bodg^h^h^h workaround I've ever
seen. Who cares if it's a chunk of timber? It did the trick.
Excellent.
(I thought Harleys were belt primary drive these days?)
Gaidheal
> Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
> appreciation, of course.
Do some research to see if there's a stronger diaphragm spring
available for competition use.
Or maybe somebody makes a coil spring setup to replace the diaphragm
spring?
Deglaze the friction plates with wet/dry sandpaper and use them again
if they are within specification.
If not, install new friction plates, possibly higher friction
competition plates, if available.
Re-use the steel plates if they aren't warped. Check them for flatness
using a sheet of glass and a feeler gauge.
Mark Olson
I usually don't respond to your bullshit but you're giving bad advice.
Don't reuse steel plates or friction plates that have overheated. In
some cases you can get away with reusing the steel plates but I would
never advise it if they've gotten blue.
The cost of new stuff isn't unbearable and reusing plates that have
severely overheated is false economy at its worst.
I don't know whether the Street Bob's clutch is as heavy as the '02
Sportster I rode, but the last thing a street Harley needs is a
heavier clutch pull or competition parts in the clutch.
Steve Mackay
I'm surprised the compensating nut torque is only 155-165 ft.lbs.
The Buells were 190-210 ft.lbs and 2003 and later, they changed it to
240-260 ft.lbs
According to my buddies who build Buell race bikes, Ignore the screamin'
beagle & barnett clutches. They don't work any better than modern stock
ones. And, IIRC, the Buell and Big twins use the same clutch packs.
It seems odd that your clutch would be slipping already. My 1998 Buell
S3T had numerous drag launches, and nearly 40K on the clock when I sold
her a year ago, and the clutch worked as well as when it was new.
Granted, it is a much lighter bike(by about 200LBS), but I'm sure it saw
far more abuse than your HD does.
I *THINK* HD's( I know Buell did) switched to lighter clutch spring and
different ball ramp system in 2006, and use a different primary fluid
now to compensate for it. Formula+. It has special friction modifiers.
Much like the old Ford F-Type tranny fluid did.
Gaidheal
> I usually don't respond to your bullshit
I feel so honored...
Stephen Cowell
"Steve Mackay" <mackay...@att.net> wrote
> On 1/3/2010 10:57 PM, Road Glidin' Don wrote:
>> Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
>> appreciation, of course.
...
> Formula+. It has special friction modifiers. Much like the old Ford F-Type
> tranny fluid did.
Were you running Formula+ or synthetic, Don?
I noticed clutch slippage when I changed the
primary over to syn... eventually went back to Formula.
__
Steve
.
Road Glidin' Don
Thanks, though it wasn't a totally novel solution. The Service Manual
had a picture of the proper tool in it; which looked like a simple
steel bar, cut to the right length.
It will be interesting to see how well my wooden tool holds up when I
try torquing the assembly back on. Should be okay, I guess - unless
it requires less torque to loosen a bolt put in at a particular torque
than it does to tighten it to the same value (possible, I suppose...).
> (I thought Harleys were belt primary drive these days?)
You're thinking of the secondary belt there - the one that runs from
the transmission pulley to the rear wheel. The one that runs from the
engine output shaft to the clutch (the 'primary' chain) has remained
as a chain. Enclosed, it can nicely run in an oil bath and
practically never wears out.
One improvement recently made (not on my '98 Road Glide for instance)
with respect to the primary chain can be seen in the top row of
photos. There's an auto-adjusting chain tensioner in there now. Used
to be that, every 30K miles or so, you'd have to adjust the tension to
keep the chain from getting too sloppy (caused mainly by the fact the
nylon pad would get a groove worn into it).
In fact, there used to be a chain adjustment opening in the side of
the primary for just that purpose. New Harleys no longer have that
side hole.
Road Glidin' Don
> Gaidheal wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 8:57 pm, "Road Glidin' Don" <d.lan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
> >> appreciation, of course.
>
> > Do some research to see if there's a stronger diaphragm spring
> > available for competition use.
>
> > Or maybe somebody makes a coil spring setup to replace the diaphragm
> > spring?
>
> > Deglaze the friction plates with wet/dry sandpaper and use them again
> > if they are within specification.
>
> > If not, install new friction plates, possibly higher friction
> > competition plates, if available.
>
> > Re-use the steel plates if they aren't warped. Check them for flatness
> > using a sheet of glass and a feeler gauge.
>
> I usually don't respond to your bullshit but you're giving bad advice.
> Don't reuse steel plates or friction plates that have overheated. In
> some cases you can get away with reusing the steel plates but I would
> never advise it if they've gotten blue.
>
> The cost of new stuff isn't unbearable and reusing plates that have
> severely overheated is false economy at its worst.
Exactly.
> I don't know whether the Street Bob's clutch is as heavy as the '02
> Sportster I rode, but the last thing a street Harley needs is a
> heavier clutch pull or competition parts in the clutch.
Those Sporties have (or had) very tough clutch pulls. That was one
thing my wife didn't like about her '05 as well. The newer Harleys
(the big twin models at least) have some sort of easy-pull clutch.
Definitely lighter than on, say, my '98 Road Glide. Not sure how
they're achieving it though, because everything inside looks the same.
Road Glidin' Don
> On 1/3/2010 10:57 PM, Road Glidin' Don wrote:
>
> > With all the extra time on my hands during this holiday season, I
> > actually managed to get some work done on my bikes. And even had time
> > to document it on the Web site.
>
> > The one below has to do with diagnosing the cause of a weak clutch on
> > the Street Bob (over-heated):
>
>
> > Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
> > appreciation, of course.
>
> I'm surprised the compensating nut torque is only 155-165 ft.lbs.
Yep. And that's what it is for my older big twin too.
> The Buells were 190-210 ft.lbs and 2003 and later, they changed it to
> 240-260 ft.lbs
Yikes. I think that's at the top-end of what my biggest torque wrench
can handle. Must be fun trying to keep the gears jammed, doing that.
> According to my buddies who build Buell race bikes, Ignore the screamin'
> beagle & barnett clutches. They don't work any better than modern stock
> ones. And, IIRC, the Buell and Big twins use the same clutch packs.
Good to know. Very good to know.
> It seems odd that your clutch would be slipping already.
Heh, heh. You probably wouldn't be surprised if you saw how I cooked
it. Hopping down the road with the front wheel locked. Darn. I must
have forgot to take my weight off the seat or something... The bike
wouldn't stay in place for me to get the wheel spinning.
And then I began to feel the clutch slip. Not long, but it slipped
while the bike stood still and the clutch fully out at the end. That
pressure and energy must create tremendous heat, very quickly. Sure
looks like it got hot, looking at those steel plates, huh?
> My 1998 Buell
> S3T had numerous drag launches, and nearly 40K on the clock when I sold
> her a year ago, and the clutch worked as well as when it was new.
> Granted, it is a much lighter bike(by about 200LBS), but I'm sure it saw
> far more abuse than your HD does.
Until now I've had good fortune with clutches too. Cars and bikes
combined, I've never had to replace a clutch in my life before this.
The clutch in the Road Glide, with > 200K kms is still original.
> I *THINK* HD's( I know Buell did) switched to lighter clutch spring and
> different ball ramp system in 2006, and use a different primary fluid
> now to compensate for it. Formula+. It has special friction modifiers.
> Much like the old Ford F-Type tranny fluid did.
I'm still using the same primary fluid I always have (the Formula +
stuff). I did have to replace the clutch spring on the Road Glide
last year, as it was finally getting hard to adjust. The new spring
made work like new again.
Road Glidin' Don
wrote:
> "Steve Mackay" <mackay.st...@att.net> wrote
I'm still using the Formula+ stuff, Steve. Interesting to hear your
experience with the synthetic...
Gaidheal
> The newer Harleys
> (the big twin models at least) have some sort of easy-pull clutch.
> Definitely lighter than on, say, my '98 Road Glide. Not sure how
> they're achieving it though, because everything inside looks the same.
A diaphragm spring is a sort of over-center spring that reduces
operator effort.
First diaphragm spring clutch I ever saw was on an English sportscar.
Even Japanese motorcycles use diaphragm springs.
Steve Mackay
<snip>
> there used to be a chain adjustment opening in the side of
> the primary for just that purpose. New Harleys no longer have that
> side hole.
>
>
I'm pretty sure Sporties still have the manual adjustment. I know the
2009 Buells do. I still adjust mine every 5K. You'd be surprised at how
fast that shoe wears when doing track days :)
don (Calgary)
Wow, you really cooked that clutch. I can only imagine what it smelled
like.
Somewhere someone posted dimensioned sketch for a wooden bar to lock
those two sprockets. I wish I could recall where I saw it. As you
noted they also recommended using a hardwood, Maple, Oak, something
like that.
A couple of questions.
Could you have got to the pressure plates and friction disks without
removing the clutch basket? I have only done two clutch
replacements/upgrades, one on a Honda and one on the Venture. With
both of those I could get to the plates and disks by removing the
pressure plate.
Second, with the Venture the diaphragm spring is crap. It is known to
let the clutch slip long before you would wear out the disks. I
replaced mine [1] with the Barnett pressure plate coil spring
conversion. Of course I replaced the friction disks at the same time.
Huge difference. It was like adding ten HP when I shifted gears.
Is the HD diaphragm spring stronger? Is there an upgrade similar to
the one I put in the Venture available? If you know.
Anyway thanks for posting the write up and the pictures. It is
appreciated.
[1] At around 140,000 kms.
Road Glidin' Don
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 20:57:55 -0800 (PST), "Road Glidin' Don"
>
> >With all the extra time on my hands during this holiday season, I
> >actually managed to get some work done on my bikes. And even had time
> >to document it on the Web site.
>
> >The one below has to do with diagnosing the cause of a weak clutch on
> >the Street Bob (over-heated):
>
>
> >Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
> >appreciation, of course.
>
> Wow, you really cooked that clutch. I can only imagine what it smelled
> like.
Oh yeah. It stunk to high heavens when I took the inspection cover
off.
> Somewhere someone posted dimensioned sketch for a wooden bar to lock
> those two sprockets. I wish I could recall where I saw it. As you
> noted they also recommended using a hardwood, Maple, Oak, something
> like that.
>
> A couple of questions.
>
> Could you have got to the pressure plates and friction disks without
> removing the clutch basket?
Yup. <sheepish grin> In fact, that's what I should have done... Ah
well, I learned something while taking the whole rig-a-ma-roo outta
there.
> I have only done two clutch
> replacements/upgrades, one on a Honda and one on the Venture. With
> both of those I could get to the plates and disks by removing the
> pressure plate.
You can with your Harley too.
> Second, with the Venture the diaphragm spring is crap. It is known to
> let the clutch slip long before you would wear out the disks. I
> replaced mine [1] with the Barnett pressure plate coil spring
> conversion. Of course I replaced the friction disks at the same time.
> Huge difference. It was like adding ten HP when I shifted gears.
I eventually had to replace the diaphragm spring on the Road Glide,
but only after about 180,000 kms. I've measured them and the friction
plates and steel plates are still just fine.
> Is the HD diaphragm spring stronger? Is there an upgrade similar to
> the one I put in the Venture available? If you know.
Yes, I believe you can put a Screamin' Eagle diaphragm spring in there
instead, to get more pressure against the plates. Which will also
result in a hard clutch pull as well, of course. I just stuck with
the stock one on the Road Glide. I think a new one cost around $75.00
at HD.
> Anyway thanks for posting the write up and the pictures. It is
> appreciated.
You're welcome. The pictures might come in handy for myself later,
when I go about putting it all back together.
Road Glidin' Don
Could be. I adjusted the primary chain tensioner on my wife's Sporty
a few months ago - just before we traded it in on a Softail.
On my Road Glide, I think I've replaced the shoe once or twice in the
200K kms. As you know, it eventually gets grooved so deeply that
there's not enough adjustment to tighten the chain anymore.
don (Calgary)
<d.la...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> Wow, you really cooked that clutch. I can only imagine what it smelled
>> like.
>
>Oh yeah. It stunk to high heavens when I took the inspection cover
>off.
>
>> Somewhere someone posted dimensioned sketch for a wooden bar to lock
>> those two sprockets. I wish I could recall where I saw it. As you
>> noted they also recommended using a hardwood, Maple, Oak, something
>> like that.
>>
>> A couple of questions.
>>
>> Could you have got to the pressure plates and friction disks without
>> removing the clutch basket?
>
>Yup. <sheepish grin> In fact, that's what I should have done... Ah
>well, I learned something while taking the whole rig-a-ma-roo outta
>there.
It's not like there was somewhere to ride.
>
>> I have only done two clutch
>> replacements/upgrades, one on a Honda and one on the Venture. With
>> both of those I could get to the plates and disks by removing the
>> pressure plate.
>
>You can with your Harley too.
>
>> Second, with the Venture the diaphragm spring is crap. It is known to
>> let the clutch slip long before you would wear out the disks. I
>> replaced mine [1] with the Barnett pressure plate coil spring
>> conversion. Of course I replaced the friction disks at the same time.
>> Huge difference. It was like adding ten HP when I shifted gears.
>
>I eventually had to replace the diaphragm spring on the Road Glide,
>but only after about 180,000 kms. I've measured them and the friction
>plates and steel plates are still just fine.
>
>> Is the HD diaphragm spring stronger? Is there an upgrade similar to
>> the one I put in the Venture available? If you know.
>
>Yes, I believe you can put a Screamin' Eagle diaphragm spring in there
>instead, to get more pressure against the plates. Which will also
>result in a hard clutch pull as well, of course. I just stuck with
>the stock one on the Road Glide. I think a new one cost around $75.00
>at HD.
With the Venture some folks opted for a cheap fix by just installing a
second diaphragm spring trying to make it last longer. Sounded like a
bandaid and not even a good one to me.
>
>> Anyway thanks for posting the write up and the pictures. It is
>> appreciated.
>
>You're welcome. The pictures might come in handy for myself later,
>when I go about putting it all back together.
>
I took a few pictures of the clutch surgery I did on the Venture. I
posted them once before, but deleted the page after a while. Seeing as
the weather is crappy I figured I could show you what the clutch
innards of the Venture looked like. Just in case you opt for "Royalty"
for a future bike. ;-)
Road Glidin' Don
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 15:26:59 -0800 (PST), "Road Glidin' Don"
> >> Anyway thanks for posting the write up and the pictures. It is
> >> appreciated.
>
> >You're welcome. The pictures might come in handy for myself later,
> >when I go about putting it all back together.
>
> I took a few pictures of the clutch surgery I did on the Venture. I
> posted them once before, but deleted the page after a while. Seeing as
> the weather is crappy I figured I could show you what the clutch
> innards of the Venture looked like. Just in case you opt for "Royalty"
> for a future bike. ;-)
>
> http://www.actualriders.ca/clutch.htm
I remember that page from when you first put it up. Nicely done.
Stephen Cowell
You'll note that I said 'eventually'... I didn't swap out
immediately, and the slippage went away fairly quickly.
Something about the difference in the two... anyway,
I didn't notice any benefit from having syn in the primary,
so I went back.
__
Steve
.
Henry
It's good to see that you don't mind being a little juvenile and
having some fun with your bikes. I always do a long smoky burnout
or two with my Valkyrie or V65 when it's time to replace the tire.
Hate to to throw away a tire that still has some usable rubber
on it. ;-) I found that the key to a good burnout is to commit
when I dump the clutch - let it out all the way and quickly, and
of course, have all my weight off the seat. I want the tire to
break loose quickly and thoroughly.
Drag racing launches are another story altogether. The best
launches are achieved by slipping the clutch and avoiding tire
spin, but those can be hard on a clutch.
You could probably loosen that hub nut by putting the bike in
gear and having someone apply the rear brake, eh?
--
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." --
Albert Einstein.
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://www.journalof911studies.com/
http://www.ae911truth.org
Road Glidin' Don
> Road Glidin' Don wrote:
> > With all the extra time on my hands during this holiday season, I
> > actually managed to get some work done on my bikes. And even had time
> > to document it on the Web site.
>
> > The one below has to do with diagnosing the cause of a weak clutch on
> > the Street Bob (over-heated):
>
>
> > Any comments, criticisms or useful suggestions will be received with
> > appreciation, of course.
>
> It's good to see that you don't mind being a little juvenile and
> having some fun with your bikes. I always do a long smoky burnout
> or two with my Valkyrie or V65 when it's time to replace the tire.
> Hate to to throw away a tire that still has some usable rubber
> on it. ;-) I found that the key to a good burnout is to commit
> when I dump the clutch - let it out all the way and quickly, and
> of course, have all my weight off the seat. I want the tire to
> break loose quickly and thoroughly.
Sounds like the voice of experience there! I hear ya.
> Drag racing launches are another story altogether. The best
> launches are achieved by slipping the clutch and avoiding tire
> spin, but those can be hard on a clutch.
Yeah, the burn-out part is intended for pre-launch (and a bit of
spectacle), to warm up the rubber a bit. Don't want to be doing that
when actually taking off.
> You could probably loosen that hub nut by putting the bike in
> gear and having someone apply the rear brake, eh?
Yeah, I probably could do that. Being a belt drive, so there's a bit
of give. Might not be the best when trying to get the torque right
while putting things back together.
Might wanna try that if that gimpy wooden stick breaks... ;)