natural gas
zoot
take?
.
> should be clean and cheap. anyone tried to convert yet? what would it
> take?
1. A fearless rider who doesn't mind having a 6000-psi compressed gas
cylinder in close proximity to his family jewels.
2. A special compressor capable of filling the compact pressure bottle
to 6000 psi.
Rick Cortese
> should be clean and cheap. anyone tried to convert yet? what would it
> take?
Not in a motorcycle but a couple of friends did it in trucks. Less dense
then gasoline or diesel and slightly less MPG. Gave up about 1/4 of
their load carrying capacity because the tanks were added in the truck
bed. A bit expensive with new carburetor and tanks. One had trouble with
warm starts, used to leave it idling if he needed to go into a store or
take a lunch break.
Much more suited to fleet use where you can have your own 1,000+ gal
storage tank. Good for warehouse forklift type apps as the exhaust is
fairly clean. I think it is exempt from smog checks in California.
One said he only made his money back by 'cheating.' Avoided paying road
taxes by filling up with fuel that was not meant to go into cars/trucks.
I think he also went 100k between oil changes because it burned so
clean. He eventually gave the truck away when he got tired of the
hassles and bought a conventional gas truck.
Rick
Blattus Slafaly
I'd rather have a turbo diesel bike.
--
Blattus Slafaly ف ٣ :) ⅞
S'mee
> On Sep 17, 9:37 am, zoot <aba...@ns-design.com> wrote:
>
> > should be clean and cheap. anyone tried to convert yet? what would it
> > take?
>
> 1. A fearless rider who doesn't mind having a 6000-psi compressed gas
> cylinder in close proximity to his family jewels.
Only partially correct. The problem is NOT the saftey of the tank but
rather the shape. Currently I'm only aware of cylindrical tanks being
made. None mountable in an aceptable manner. 8^( There was a company
in england attempting to make tanks that are usable on a motorcycle.
> 2. A special compressor capable of filling the compact pressure bottle
> to 6000 psi.
LOL no you pull up to a filling station that delivers CNG with no
problems but good try at being a spoil sport.
--
Keith
.
> LOL no you pull up to a filling station that delivers CNG with no
> problems but good try at being a spoil sport.
OK, so what pressure does the station deliver the CNG to your tank?
And what does it take, about ten gallons of CNG to go 200 miles?
That's a rather inconvenient cylindrical tank to be straddling...
S'mee
> On Sep 17, 6:03 pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > LOL no you pull up to a filling station that delivers CNG with no
> > problems but good try at being a spoil sport.
>
> OK, so what pressure does the station deliver the CNG to your tank?
I'd have to ask. Might later this week as I've two 5gal tanks to top
off.
> And what does it take, about ten gallons of CNG to go 200 miles?
I've never heard data on how far you can go on a CNG fuel motorcycle.
I to would like to know.
> That's a rather inconvenient cylindrical tank to be straddling...
They were working on shapes more plauable to motorcycle usage for just
the reason you gave. It's an akward problem to be sure. I know I don't
have the answers. But I'm sure there is somebody or some corporation
out there that can do it. The question then is WILL they do it. I
think it would be interesting to see if they work it out. Until then
we'll have to settle for gas, diesel, electric or steam.
--
Keith
Rob Kleinschmidt
> On Sep 17, 9:47 pm, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 17, 6:03 pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > LOL no you pull up to a filling station that delivers CNG with no
> > > problems but good try at being a spoil sport.
>
> > OK, so what pressure does the station deliver the CNG to your tank?
>
> I'd have to ask. Might later this week as I've two 5gal tanks to top
> off.
>
> > And what does it take, about ten gallons of CNG to go 200 miles?
>
> I've never heard data on how far you can go on a CNG fuel motorcycle.
> I to would like to know.
It's interesting that you're buying CNG the same way
you can buy propane. A neighbor was happily running
a CNG Honda as a commute vehicle and refueling it
at a local filling station in the bay area.
Apparantly $5-6 grand gets you a home refueling
station if you want it.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/154709/output/print
My understanding is that by volume, a gallon of CNG
gives you roughly 70% of the energy of a gallon of
gasoline.
Any gaseous fuel will run way cleaner than gasoline or
diesel. I put 12,000 hours on a propane powered genset
that was still running strong on the original valves and
rings when we sold the house. No contamination of
the oil or washing it off the cylinder walls. The used oil
comes out clean but somewhat thicker on oil changes.
.
> On Sep 17, 9:47�pm, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > OK, so what pressure does the station deliver the CNG to your tank?
>
> I'd have to ask. Might later this week as I've two 5gal tanks to top
> off.
3,600psi, according to Rob's article.
Do you really *want* a pressure bomb in your crotch?
.
wrote:
> Any gaseous fuel will run way cleaner than gasoline or
> diesel. I put 12,000 hours on a propane powered genset
> that was still running strong on the original valves and
> rings when we sold the house. No contamination of
> the oil or washing it off the cylinder walls. The used oil
> comes out clean but somewhat thicker on oil changes.
We had two propane-powered Cushman three-wheelers to get around the
wastewater treatment plant. They would only be driven 2 or 3 miles a
day and it seems to me like we were only getting about 100 miles on a
5-gallon tank of LPG.
Rob Kleinschmidt
Nice chart of energy content found at the URL below
Fuel Type BTUs Per
Unit Gallon Equivalent
Gasoline, regular unleaded, (typical) 114,100
1.00 gallon
Gasoline, RFG, (10% MBTE) 112,000
1.02 gallons
Diesel, (typical)
129,800 0.88 gallons
Liquid natural gas (LNG), (typical) 75,000
1.52 gallons
Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG or propane) 84,300 1.35
gallons
http://tinyurl.com/2alhb
http://www.nafa.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Resource_Center/Alternative_Fuels/Energy_Equivalents/Energy_Equivalents.htm
.
> Liquid natural gas (LNG), (typical) � � � � � � 75,000
> 1.52 gallons
So you would need 7.5 gallons of LNG to equal the range of 5 gallons
of gasoline...
That's a *huge* gas tank...
S'mee
Read what I said earlier...any way if the tank is certified, has good
reliable saftey valve. Well then I have no problem as long as it fits
in the OEM location of my motorcycle with no modifications to the
frame. It's hard ever get truly scared after you've driven through
minefields in the dark "Sure it's safe the engineers cleared them".
Aint' skeered no mo'.
8^)
--
Keith
.
> It's hard ever get truly scared after you've driven through
> minefields in the dark "Sure it's safe the engineers cleared them".
> Aint' skeered no mo'.
Most people recover from their military experience after twenty years
or so and they usually realize that most people don't care about their
war stories
after only about one year back home.
Mark Olson
> Most people recover from their military experience after twenty years
> or so and they usually realize that most people don't care about their
> war stories
> after only about one year back home.
Upon growing up, most adults cease bragging about what their distant
ancestors have done and they usually realize that most people don't
care ...
Sometimes you really hit it bang on the head, not as good as this one,
but this was a good one, Krusty.
S'mee
And some of get over before we got out and just love tellin' war
stories...the cunts that couldn't cut it tend to piss and moan about
the story tellin'. ;^) I could have said that after you've been punted
by a horse you no longer get scared easy.
--
Keith
S'mee
and some people kiss krustys ass but you don't see me getting on their
case do you?
The Older Gentleman
> Any gaseous fuel will run way cleaner than gasoline or
> diesel.
Depends. A truck diesel, running with a cat and a CRT, actually emits
less NOX, CO2 and even particulate matter than a gas truck running
without.
I've driven both diesel and gas powered heavy trucks. fascinating. The
gas powered trucks run a lot smoother. Range is the crucial problem with
them.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Yamaha XT600E Honda CB400F
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
"What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time
and hassle for no tangible benefit."
The Older Gentleman
> On Sep 17, 9:08?pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 17, 9:47?pm, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > OK, so what pressure does the station deliver the CNG to your tank?
> >
> > I'd have to ask. Might later this week as I've two 5gal tanks to top
> > off.
>
> 3,600psi, according to Rob's article.
>
> Do you really *want* a pressure bomb in your crotch?
Or: do you want thin-wall mild steel, or even plastic, that contains
four or five gallons of high-octane petrol?
S'mee
Gentleman) wrote:
> . <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 17, 9:08?pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sep 17, 9:47?pm, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > OK, so what pressure does the station deliver the CNG to your tank?
>
> > > I'd have to ask. Might later this week as I've two 5gal tanks to top
> > > off.
>
> > 3,600psi, according to Rob's article.
>
> > Do you really *want* a pressure bomb in your crotch?
>
> Or: do you want thin-wall mild steel, or even plastic, that contains
> four or five gallons of high-octane petrol?
>
That stuff will stick to you! DAHIKIJK okay?
--
keith
Rob Kleinschmidt
Gentleman) wrote:
> Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Any gaseous fuel will run way cleaner than gasoline or
> > diesel.
>
> Depends. A truck diesel, running with a cat and a CRT, actually emits
> less NOX, CO2 and even particulate matter than a gas truck running
> without.
Well actually, when I spoke of "cleaner" I was thinking of
mostly of oil and internal engine contaminants, though
I would have expected good emissions as well. I
really like the lack of oil contaminents.
> I've driven both diesel and gas powered heavy trucks. fascinating. The
> gas powered trucks run a lot smoother. Range is the crucial problem with
> them.
And when you speak of "gas", this is CNG or propane or
"gas" as American for gasoline ?
NOX and CO2 would seem to be pretty much a given for
any ICE, though you might expect less CO2 and more H2O
for CNG.
Lower particulates seems surprising.
How about hydrocarbons ?
Rob Kleinschmidt
My current gasoline tank is 6.5 gallons and I'd like larger.
MPG, range and tank size is a legitimate criticism though.
Rob Kleinschmidt
> On Sep 18, 6:31 am, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > 3,600psi, according to Rob's article.
>
> > Do you really *want* a pressure bomb in your crotch?
>
> Read what I said earlier...any way if the tank is certified, has good
> reliable saftey valve. Well then I have no problem as long as it fits
> in the OEM location of my motorcycle with no modifications to the
> frame.
That was pretty much my thought, though I think
I'd want the safety valve pointing somewhere other
than at my crotch. If nothing else, flash frostbite
on the family jewels sounds very unpleasant.
.
Gentleman) wrote:
> Or: do you want thin-wall mild steel, or even plastic, that contains
> four or five gallons of high-octane petrol?
A gasoline tank can catch fire if there's a leak onto the hot exhaust
pipes, but it won't go BLEVE on you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE
S'mee
AND your point being? Seems to me life would be pointless without
risks to life and limb... Saftey is for people who are already dead
inside.
--
Keith
Rob Kleinschmidt
Also seems like there are enough CNG vehicles out there
to be able to talk about real world risk statistics instead of
just hypotheticaly possible accidents.
Explain to me again how riding motorcycles is otherwise
riskless ? How does your risk of a CNG explosion compare
to your risk of becoming a hood ornament on a minivan
driven by a distracted soccer mom ?
S'mee
> On Sep 18, 6:27 pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 18, 6:43 pm, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 18, 11:34 am, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
>
> > > Gentleman) wrote:
> > > > Or: do you want thin-wall mild steel, or even plastic, that contains
> > > > four or five gallons of high-octane petrol?
>
> > > A gasoline tank can catch fire if there's a leak onto the hot exhaust
> > > pipes, but it won't go BLEVE on you.
>
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE
>
> > AND your point being? Seems to me life would be pointless without
> > risks to life and limb... Saftey is for people who are already dead
> > inside.
>
> Also seems like there are enough CNG vehicles out there
> to be able to talk about real world risk statistics instead of
> just hypotheticaly possible accidents.
I dunno, what are the statistics?
> Explain to me again how riding motorcycles is otherwise
> riskless ? How does your risk of a CNG explosion compare
> to your risk of becoming a hood ornament on a minivan
> driven by a distracted soccer mom ?- Hide quoted text -
I never made any speculation but I do think it is safe to say that if
mountes like many gasoline tanks (inside the perimeter of the frame)
the risk would be no greater. But that's mere speculation on my part.
I suggest you ask someone who has done the research.
I do find you question valid and you bring a good point...but I doubt
if anybody has researched the matter without bias against motorcycles.
p.s. you will excuse me for pissing off krusty. It's easy to do.
--
Keith
.
> On Sep 18, 6:43�pm, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 18, 11:34 am, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
>
> > Gentleman) wrote:
> > > Or: do you want thin-wall mild steel, or even plastic, that contains
> > > four or five gallons of high-octane petrol?
>
> > A gasoline tank can catch fire if there's a leak onto the hot exhaust
> > pipes, but it won't go BLEVE on you.
> AND your point being?
A gasoline tank can catch fire if there's a leak onto the hot exhaust
pipes, but it won't go BLEVE on you.
I have seen crashes on the race track where five motorcycles were down
and two of the gas tanks came off and tumbled down the track in
flames. I also saw a crash where the clipon handlebar managed to
puncture the gas tank, spilling all the fuel onto the exhaust header.
But a BLEVE is something else. A BLEVE produces a fireball that rises
way up in the air.
> Seems to me life would be pointless without
> risks to life and limb...
So go out and do something risky, right now, don't delay...
But don't report back, I need to watch South Park now.
> Saftey is for people who are already dead inside.
Tell that to the man with the ticket book...
S'mee
Been there seen that on a Harley...fire made the gas hot enough to
boil and form the vapor cloud. Not something you want to see.
South park? That is so 90's. It sucks also...maybe that's why you like
it.
S'mee
I think that's a given. ;^)
paul c
...
> A gasoline tank can catch fire if there's a leak onto the hot exhaust
> pipes, but it won't go BLEVE on you.
After the arson investigator interrogated me to do with my car going up
in flames, but not in a BLEVE, and after being a little panicked, I had
warned bystanders away from a possible gasoline explosion, he told me
that tire explosions are much more frequent than gasoline tank ones.
The Older Gentleman
> And when you speak of "gas", this is CNG or propane or
> "gas" as American for gasoline ?
'Gas' in the Brit sense. ie: "not petrol:
>
> NOX and CO2 would seem to be pretty much a given for
> any ICE, though you might expect less CO2 and more H2O
> for CNG.
>
> Lower particulates seems surprising.
That's the CRT
>
> How about hydrocarbons ?
Unburnt? Lower.
It surprised me as well. It was one reason why gas-powered trucks didn't
take off here. They started building 'em, and they were nice and clean,
and then CR diesel engines, ultra low sulphur diesel, and the invention
of the CRT all came at the same time.
I was working for the biggest road haulage organisation in the country
at the time: the Freight Transport Association. It surprised them as
well, but the tests showed it was true, and gas truck just faded away.
The only area where gas trucks stilll really score is noise: they're
definitely quieter.
The Older Gentleman
> But a BLEVE is something else.
Lovely, isn't it, when you discover a new term on Wiki and start
blathering as if you'd known about it all your life.
Hans-Christian Becker
. <yefel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sep 18, 11:34�am, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
>Gentleman) wrote:
>
>> Or: do you want thin-wall mild steel, or even plastic, that contains
>> four or five gallons of high-octane petrol?
>
>A gasoline tank can catch fire if there's a leak onto the hot exhaust
>pipes, but it won't go BLEVE on you.
>
not as a liquid. Not that a 200 bar tank blowing up is anything I would
like to be close to, though.
I would also worry about crash damage to the high-pressure vessel and its
fittings.
--
Dr. Hans-Christian Becker
'96 VN750 SM5TLH KG6POK
Uppsala, Sweden
TOG@Toil
> In article <fdc98e33-1903-489e-9324-3d708326f...@a18g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,. <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 18, 11:34 am, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
> >Gentleman) wrote:
>
> >> Or: do you want thin-wall mild steel, or even plastic, that contains
> >> four or five gallons of high-octane petrol?
>
> >A gasoline tank can catch fire if there's a leak onto the hot exhaust
> >pipes, but it won't go BLEVE on you.
>
> But if it really is CNG (and not LPG or such), it is stored as a gas and
> not as a liquid. Not that a 200 bar tank blowing up is anything I would
> like to be close to, though.
> I would also worry about crash damage to the high-pressure vessel and its
> fittings.
>
vessels are incredibly tough: the fittings are designed so that if
they're severed, leaks are cut off, etc etc. Just consider how much
bottled gas is moved around the world by road already. Accidents are
very rare.
You're bound to get more accidents as gas engines are more widely
used, but I'd say that the present high pressure petrol or diesel
fuel systems arguably offer a greater risk. Look at the way vehicle
fires seem more prevalent (no, I have no stats to prove either way)
since the universal adoption of FI rather than carbs.
I'd certainly be interested to see vehicle fire stats figures, if
anyone's got any.
Hans-Christian Becker
TOG@Toil <totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On 19 Sep, 10:52, h...@fki030.fki.uu.se (Hans-Christian Becker) wrote:
>> But if it really is CNG (and not LPG or such), it is stored as a gas and
>> not as a liquid. Not that a 200 bar tank blowing up is anything I would
>> like to be close to, though.
>> I would also worry about crash damage to the high-pressure vessel and its
>> fittings.
>>
>I wouldn't. Gas storage and transport really is incredibly safe. The
>vessels are incredibly tough: the fittings are designed so that if
>they're severed, leaks are cut off, etc etc. Just consider how much
>bottled gas is moved around the world by road already. Accidents are
>very rare.
Point taken. I was thinking of the 200 bar cylinders we handle in the
lab. Apparently these make excellent projectiles if the main valve
breaks off, but I assume anything made for a motorcycle would have
rather different safety features.
.
wrote:
> Point taken. I was thinking of the 200 bar cylinders we handle in the
> lab. Apparently these make excellent projectiles if the main valve
> breaks off, but I assume anything made for a motorcycle would have
> rather different safety features.
A nationwide bottled gas company had an acetylene storage facility in
Kansas City.
Over the years, most of the neighborhood became residential, but the
junkyard-looking acetylene storage facility continued in operation
until one day an acetylene bottle leaked, the gas was ignited, the
ensuing fire heated other acetylene bottles and they started
exploding.
The bottled gas company wanted to rebuild their facility after the
inferno, but were denied a permit...
.
wrote:
> But if it really is CNG (and not LPG or such), it is stored as a gas and
> not as a liquid.
The range of a CNG-fueled vehicle has not been discussed yet, but I
suppose the gas cylinder would weigh more than the gas it contained.
Can you imagine riding a motorcycle with a 10-gallon, 75-pound gas
cylinder mounted in the convential position?
.
Gentleman) wrote:
> . <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > But a BLEVE is something else.
>
> Lovely, isn't it, when you discover a new term on Wiki and start
> blathering as if you'd known about it all your life.
Nope, I didn't learn about BLEVE's from Wikipedia. BLEVE's were a
topic in my firefighter training at the oil refinery.
Hans-Christian Becker
Heh. I think it would be an interesting experience ...
TOG@Toil
So? Petrol stations and oil depots catch fire too.
TOG@Toil
> On Sep 19, 2:52 am, h...@fki030.fki.uu.se (Hans-Christian Becker)
> wrote:
>
> > But if it really is CNG (and not LPG or such), it is stored as a gas and
> > not as a liquid.
>
> The range of a CNG-fueled vehicle has not been discussed yet, but I
> suppose the gas cylinder would weigh more than the gas it contained.
You suppose wrong. Try humping empty and full hot air balloon gas
cylinders around: you soon appreciate the difference.
It's been discussed elsewhere. I've said: the problem with gas-fuelled
vehicles is the relatively limited range. Gas conversions - CNG or LPG
- ar quite common in Britain, chiefly to things like V8 powered Range
Rovers which (a) have the interior space for the fuel tank and (b)
cost a fortune to run on pump petrol. Most of these (if not all) are
duel-fuel: the gas tank is an extra installation.
>
> Can you imagine riding a motorcycle with a 10-gallon, 75-pound gas
> cylinder mounted in the convential position?
Quite a few motorcycles mount their fuel tanks elsewhere. It would be
interesting to see what designs would come out from a gas-fuelled POV,
though. For example, you could store gas inside the frame....
TOG@Toil
> wrote:
>
>
> The range of a CNG-fueled vehicle has not been discussed yet, but I
> suppose the gas cylinder would weigh more than the gas it contained.
>
be heavier.
S'mee
We are in agreement that tires blow first. What I saw was a gas fire
that acted like a BLEVE. It was weird to be sure. The owner over filed
his chopper after a long ride on a hot day. Apparently when the fuel
got boiling hard it was putting out enough vapor to cause a BLEVE.
Didn't take out the gas station but the pump got crispy enough to need
replacement. But that was 1984 and the details are hazy.
--
Keith
S'mee
They don't weigh that much...half that or less.
--
Keith
stop mining me krusty...
.
> For example, you could store gas inside the frame....
Well, that would get you down to the off license store, wouldn't it?
.
> stop mining me krusty...
What, do you feel like your naive ideas are being undermined?
If there was a worthwhile market for CNG-fueled Old Wings, there would
be a plethora of conversion kits on the web.
The Older Gentleman
> On Sep 19, 7:55?am, "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > For example, you could store gas inside the frame....
>
> Well, that would get you down to the off license store, wouldn't it?
<Shrug> It's a start.
Rob Kleinschmidt
> > And when you speak of "gas", this is CNG or propane or
> > "gas" as American for gasoline ?
>
> 'Gas' in the Brit sense. ie: "not petrol:
>
>
>
> > NOX and CO2 would seem to be pretty much a given for
> > any ICE, though you might expect less CO2 and more H2O
> > for CNG.
>
> > Lower particulates seems surprising.
>
> That's the CRT
>
>
>
> > How about hydrocarbons ?
>
> Unburnt? Lower.
>
> It surprised me as well. It was one reason why gas-powered trucks didn't
> take off here. They started building 'em, and they were nice and clean,
> and then CR diesel engines, ultra low sulphur diesel, and the invention
> of the CRT all came at the same time.
>
> I was working for the biggest road haulage organisation in the country
> at the time: the Freight Transport Association. It surprised them as
> well, but the tests showed it was true, and gas truck just faded away.
>
> The only area where gas trucks stilll really score is noise: they're
> definitely quieter.
Found this URL for CRT-diesel vs. CNG busses.
http://www.dieselnet.com/news/2002/04carb2.php
They confirm much of what you say but assert
higher NO2 and NOX for diesel.
You'd expect lower CO2 emissions for CNG just
because of the ratio of hydrogens and carbons
in the two fuels, but I haven't tried to work the math
to confirm this.
Rick Cortese
> On 19 Sep, 15:13, "." <yefelnag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sep 19, 2:52 am, h...@fki030.fki.uu.se (Hans-Christian Becker)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>But if it really is CNG (and not LPG or such), it is stored as a gas and
>>>not as a liquid.
>>
>>The range of a CNG-fueled vehicle has not been discussed yet, but I
>>suppose the gas cylinder would weigh more than the gas it contained.
>
>
> You suppose wrong. Try humping empty and full hot air balloon gas
> cylinders around: you soon appreciate the difference.
>
> It's been discussed elsewhere. I've said: the problem with gas-fuelled
> vehicles is the relatively limited range. Gas conversions - CNG or LPG
> - ar quite common in Britain, chiefly to things like V8 powered Range
> Rovers which (a) have the interior space for the fuel tank and (b)
> cost a fortune to run on pump petrol. Most of these (if not all) are
> duel-fuel: the gas tank is an extra installation.
Not picking on you, just using your post as an excuse to rank.
While this isn't in range of your thought or intent, lucky we don't have
kings in the USA and even more so that I am not him.
The problem in the USA with range is about our class system. The nouveau
riche want private neighborhoods with out having to associate with the
lower classes. I would use Stanford Industrial Park/Palo Alto as a good
example. A starter home, 2 bedroom 2 bath, maybe 1200^2' will go for
over a million dollars. Same house in a commuter city 30-50 miles away
would sell for maybe $240k. Typically each company will have the top 10
or 20 managers living within walking distance of the company while
700-1,000 employees will have to commute ~60 miles a day. You could cut
our energy usage in spots by 30-100x just by getting rid of this crazy
situation. There is nothing else on the table that will reduce energy
usage by 98%. There is nothing else on the table that will make
alternative fuels viable like reducing the range. Heck, lead acid
batteries are good'nuff for 3 miles in a golf cart.
You could solve all the problems with short range alternate fuel
vehicles and huge consumption of energy with one edict: Just like
businesses have to provide enough parking at their facility, they have
to have nearby affordable housing. The rich could still have their
elitist communities, just not right next to a university and high tech
industrial park.
This isn't a new proposal. I remember the Sierra Club proposed something
like this back in the 1960s. I would be happy to commute with something
using one of those 15hp E-tek motor or a pint of CNG, I just don't want
to do it for 50 miles.
Even if you stick with the current status quo, there is no integration
of commuting and mass transit. By that I mean things like feeder routes
and schedules are not tied to other transport like rail. It even gets
down to an unfriendly environment. For 6 months I used nothing but
public transportation to work during the first big energy crisis back in
the 1970s. I think during those 6 months I had 5-7 bicycles stolen. DOH!
Doesn't the parking lot attendant get the least bit suspicious when a
bunch of thugs pile out of a van with bolt cutters and start clipping
chains and loading bikes into the van? I went from paying $100/month in
gas to paying $100/month for public transit plus losing $100/month worth
of bicycles! Who is going to leave their freaking $5,000 Segway at the
train depot if they lose one a month?
Rick
S'mee
> On Sep 19, 8:24 am, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > stop mining me krusty...
>
> What, do you feel like your naive ideas are being undermined?
Nope you've been looking me up...
> If there was a worthwhile market for CNG-fueled Old Wings, there would
> be a plethora of conversion kits on the web.
No it just means nobody has tried. There are supercharger kits
available and all sorts of other goodies, like real brakes.
Now be a good bitter old man and fuck off.
--
Keith
Rob Kleinschmidt
> Even if you stick with the current status quo, there is no integration
> of commuting and mass transit. By that I mean things like feeder routes
> and schedules are not tied to other transport like rail.
Part of the problem I think is fractured jurisdictions. In the bay
area, there are multiple counties which voluntarily participate
in BART. I am absolutely amazed that Santa Clara county has
paid into BART but you still can't take a BART ride up the
penninsula to San Francisco. Eventually, you may be able to
get there by way of a long detour through the east bay
and Oakland. Even within the county, there are glaring
problems getting to the airport.
Two more of my favorite crackpot solutions:
More telecommuting. Why bother to leave home ?
Multi-passenger van sized jitneys. San Francisco
used to run these down Mission street and they were
way quicker than Muni at a competetive price. I've
also seen similar in Mexico City.
The Older Gentleman
> They confirm much of what you say but assert
> higher NO2 and NOX for diesel.
Ah. I may have been mistaken on that point, then.
It was 10 years ago.
.
> Now be a good bitter old man and fuck off.
Well, OK, if you feel that way. But I'm cutting you out of my will,
you're not getting my 1957 Moto Guzzi V8. 8-P
S'mee
So? Who cares? Yours hasn't had maintince since it was
assembled...you've already proven to me you haven't a clue on
maintaining vehicles.
ignorant cunt I want a new one anyway.
Dr Ivan D. Reid
<totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote in <226a74ba-3d50-4a63...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>:
> So? Petrol stations and oil depots catch fire too.
...even in Britain! <gd&r>
--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
GSX600F, RG250WD "You Porsche. Me pass!" DoD #484 JKLO#003, 005
WP7# 3000 LC Unit #2368 (tinlc) UKMC#00009 BOTAFOT#16 UKRMMA#7 (Hon)
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
Dr Ivan D. Reid
<totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk>
...for extra-strength frames, like those pressurised-frame Bimota
GP racers years ago. IIRC they had a pressure gauge so the rider could
see if the frame had cracked and leaked, so he could stop riding _before_
it collapsed.
Miss Anne Thrope
months ago a guy was filling up and his work van's fuel tank burst at
the seam and then ignited for a few seconds.
I ran out to see what the noise was and this guy was staggering towards
me with his jeans torn to shreds (like a demin hula skirt.) and his hair
all burned off.
At least with gasoline, when you overfill the tank, it just runs out on
your Reeboks.
The Older Gentleman
Not if there's an ignition source (as there obviously was here)....