Clutch noise?
Willie The Wimp
Older CBR600, lo-miles.
Engine warm, accelerate up hill, maybe 35 mph, in 3rd gear. Reach
top, dis-engage clutch, coast down hill in 3rd. with clutch lever
actuated. When I hunker down, I can hear a sort-of growling/grinding
noise.
This is "normal operating noise" for a bike with a wet clutch?
Willie
Shantideva Upasaka
wrote:
> Older CBR600, lo-miles.
>
> Engine warm, accelerate up hill, maybe 35 mph, in 3rd gear. Reach
> top, dis-engage clutch, coast down hill in 3rd. with clutch lever
> actuated. When I hunker down, I can hear a sort-of growling/grinding
> noise.
Wet clutch baskets will make a low frequency clattering clunking noise
at about 1/3 the engine RPM with the clutch lever OUT.
If you pull the clutch lever IN and the noise goes away, that's the
clutch basket
flopping around a liitle bit on its bearings which ride on the
transmission mainshaft.
If there is still a lot of clattering and clanking with the clutch
lever pulled IN all the way, the two other suspects are a loose or
worn out cam chain, or a starter clutch that's flopping around on its
shaft.
The Older Gentleman
> If there is still a lot of clattering and clanking with the clutch
> lever pulled IN all the way, the two other suspects are a loose or
> worn out cam chain, or a starter clutch that's flopping around on its
> shaft.
Wrong again. Different type of noise entirely.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes!
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
The Older Gentleman
> Older CBR600, lo-miles.
>
> Engine warm, accelerate up hill, maybe 35 mph, in 3rd gear. Reach
> top, dis-engage clutch, coast down hill in 3rd. with clutch lever
> actuated. When I hunker down, I can hear a sort-of growling/grinding
> noise.
That'll be the chain and transmission.
>
> This is "normal operating noise" for a bike with a wet clutch?
>
It's not the clutch. Not if you have the lever pulled in..
Willie The Wimp
wrote:
>Willie The Wimp <Cadilla...@screwmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Older CBR600, lo-miles.
>>
>> Engine warm, accelerate up hill, maybe 35 mph, in 3rd gear. Reach
>> top, dis-engage clutch, coast down hill in 3rd. with clutch lever
>> actuated. When I hunker down, I can hear a sort-of growling/grinding
>> noise.
>
>That'll be the chain and transmission.
>>
>> This is "normal operating noise" for a bike with a wet clutch?
>>
>It's not the clutch. Not if you have the lever pulled in..
OK.
A 2nd scenario. I go out the garage, start the bike cold, hold the
clutch lever in whilst in neutral gear, hear a very similar sort-of
growling/grinding noise. By the time I roll the bike out the garage
(maybe 15 seconds), the noise stops. I always try to wait for this
before shifting to 1st gear (less clunk).
Normal clutch noise?
Thanks,
Wille
The Older Gentleman
>
> OK.
>
> A 2nd scenario. I go out the garage, start the bike cold, hold the
> clutch lever in whilst in neutral gear, hear a very similar sort-of
> growling/grinding noise. By the time I roll the bike out the garage
> (maybe 15 seconds), the noise stops. I always try to wait for this
> before shifting to 1st gear (less clunk).
>
> Normal clutch noise?
>
Hard to tell without listening, but all transmissions and clutches make
a noise somewhere or other. Just ride it. I don't think anything at all
is wrong with it.
Shantideva Upasaka
wrote:
> A 2nd scenario. I go out the garage, start the bike cold, hold the
> clutch lever in whilst in neutral gear, hear a very similar sort-of
> growling/grinding noise. By the time I roll the bike out the garage
> (maybe 15 seconds), the noise stops. I always try to wait for this
> before shifting to 1st gear (less clunk).
>
> Normal clutch noise?
As I said previously, the clutch basket itself has to ride on a
bearing that allows it to turn at a different speed from the
transmission mainshaft.
If this bearing is worn out, the clutch basket can flop around
radially and it will make a rattling sound until you pull the clutch
lever in.
Part of the noise is also due to slight misalignments of the primary
gears, which are usually straight cut gears.
Straight cut gears are generally noisy anyway.
If the big nut that holds the clutch center hub onto the transmission
mainshaft is really loose from drive train slop over the decades, the
clutch basket can also walk sideways, along the axis of the mainshaft.
Pulling the clutch lever on a Honda will usually push a loose clutch
center hub towards the centerline of the motorcycle, because the
clutch is build Honda-screwy, it's inside out, compared to Suzuki,
Yamaha, and some Kawasaki clutches.
Pushing on a loose clutch by pulling the clutch lever will quiet down
the clutch.
On Suzukis, Yamahas, and some Kawasakis, pulling the clutch lever will
push a loose clutch center hub away from the centerline of the
motorcycle, stopping some of the clutch rattle.
Then there is the transmission itself, which has 5 sets of noisy
straight cut gears, which are all meshed with each other, all the
time, even when the tranmission is in neutral.
These gear sets don't have any bearings inside the gears, so they tend
to be noisy when the engine is cold.
Also, cold engine oil is thicker than warm engine oil, so the gear
sets will try to turn the rear wheel, even when the transmission is in
neutral. It's the thick oil and high idle RPM when cold that causes
the transmission to clunk when you
put it in gear.
You might try putting the transmission into 2nd gear first, to reduce
the clunk, and then put it into 1st gear.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to "TOG", who calls himself "The
Older Gentleman".
He's not older, and he's NO gentleman. He hangs around on Usenet all
day to start arguments with people. He'll tell you that he's "just
trying to help", and that it's all your fault for being too stupid to
describe your problem accurately.
He will insult you and argue some more, and try to get you to admit
that you're the one who's wrong and you'll have to apologize for
"wasting" his time.
He's a Usenet troll, this is what he does all day.
The Older Gentleman
<snip>
> I wouldn't pay too much attention to "TOG", who calls himself "The
> Older Gentleman".
>
> He's not older, and he's NO gentleman. He hangs around on Usenet all
> day to start arguments with people. He'll tell you that he's "just
> trying to help", and that it's all your fault for being too stupid to
> describe your problem accurately.
>
> He will insult you and argue some more, and try to get you to admit
> that you're the one who's wrong and you'll have to apologize for
> "wasting" his time.
Nope. He's just saying the guy doesn't have a problem. And he's just
said that all transmissions make a noise of one sort or another, only he
managed it in rather fewer words than you just have.
Shantideva Upasaka
Gentleman) wrote:
> Nope. He's just saying the guy doesn't have a problem.
How do you KNOW that?
You don't KNOW whether he has a problem with cam chain tension, worn
out chain and sprockets, a loose clutch hub, bent shifter forks, or a
starter clutch that's about to lock up and throw him onto the
pavement.
You just don't KNOW.
But I think if you go over to ukrm, you can find a whole bunch of
Slimey supporters who will be glad to extend this thread to 90 or 100
off topic messages...
TOG@Toil
> On Nov 10, 11:22 pm, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
>
> Gentleman) wrote:
> > Nope. He's just saying the guy doesn't have a problem.
>
> How do you KNOW that?
>
> You don't KNOW whether he has a problem with cam chain tension, worn
> out chain and sprockets, a loose clutch hub, bent shifter forks, or a
> starter clutch that's about to lock up and throw him onto the
> pavement.
>
> You just don't KNOW.
>
Honda ever built. I'd roll with the percentages. The odds are that Mr
Honda got it right (because he does, mostly), you've got it wrong
(because you do, mostly), and he's worrying unduly (because a lot of
newbies do). So I'll say that none of the above is likely to "throw
him onto a pavement" any time soon.
If that does happen, though, I'll certainly apologise. Oh, and I
mentioned chain and sprocket noise ages ago. I see you've decided to
list it as a possible problem, at last.
[1] Second gear used to go on abused early ones. Reg/rec failure is
well documented, and not confined to the CBR6 anyway.
Shantideva Upasaka
> > Gentleman) wrote:
> You're talking about one of the most tough and reliable[1] bikes that
> Honda ever built. I'd roll with the percentages. The odds are that Mr
> Honda got it right (because he does, mostly), you've got it wrong
> (because you do, mostly), and he's worrying unduly (because a lot of
> newbies do).
It's an OLD Honda, maybe 20 years old, and WHO knows what abuse it's
been exposed to?
Certainly not YOU.
> So I'll say that none of the above is likely to "throw
> him onto a pavement" any time soon.
>
> If that does happen, though, I'll certainly apologise.
A fat lot of good your apology will do him, if he has to take a ride
in an ambulance or has to pay a huge repair bill.
TOG@Toil
> On Nov 11, 6:18 am, "TOG@Toil" <totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Gentleman) wrote:
> > You're talking about one of the most tough and reliable[1] bikes that
> > Honda ever built. I'd roll with the percentages. The odds are that Mr
> > Honda got it right (because he does, mostly), you've got it wrong
> > (because you do, mostly), and he's worrying unduly (because a lot of
> > newbies do).
>
> It's an OLD Honda, maybe 20 years old, and WHO knows what abuse it's
> been exposed to?
It's still incredibly tough, and I see and play with rather more old
Hondas (some much older than this) than you do, so I reckon I know a
bit more about 'em. It may indeed be on the brink of death-dealing
mechanical catastrophe, but I doubt it.
Still, carry on sounding your tocsin[1] if it makes you feel better.
>
> Certainly not YOU.
>
> > So I'll say that none of the above is likely to "throw
> > him onto a pavement" any time soon.
>
> > If that does happen, though, I'll certainly apologise.
>
> A fat lot of good your apology will do him, if he has to take a ride
> in an ambulance or has to pay a huge repair bill.
As opposed to paying a huge bill to a mechanic to be told nothing's
wrong? Think DatesFat.
<Leans forward over desk conspiratorially>
Are you really warning him that his gear selector forks are bent and
about to kill him?
[1] You may need to look this up.
Shantideva Upasaka
> Still, carry on sounding your tocsin[1] if it makes you feel
better.
You are dull and black, Mr. Pot, but I am becoming more and more
mirror-like with every passing day.
Dave Emerson
"Shantideva Upasaka" <macm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:376f76c8-1167-4c4d...@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
Rob Kleinschmidt
wrote:
Take a hard look at the oil next time you change it,
looking for metal fuzz and powdered bronze. If you've
got an oil filter that can be opened, consider disecting
the filter too.
Tear into it if you see metal or if the noise gets louder.
Willie The Wimp
wrote:
You've seen such condition(s)? What caused it?
Dave Emerson
"Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e9c3a57c-f9fc-45bd-8e3e-
>
> Tear into it if you see metal or if the noise gets louder.
>
The only safe approach is to switch off the engine and use one of these...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120494732675.
Otherwise just ride the bloody thing.
--
Dave
ex Motorcycle Maintenance Workshop
http://tinyurl.com/4mhaw
Rob Kleinschmidt
wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:25:24 -0800 (PST), Rob Kleinschmidt <Rkleinsch1216...@aol.com>
My clutch makes noise when it's pulled in. The plates make
light contact and bang around some.
I've also had bearing failures.
When a bearing cage fails, that also makes noise and
gets worse, louder and more expensive very quickly. That
kind of failure shows up as metal in the oil. The metal can
be as fine as flour paste or later on, sharp beebee size
chunks. Steel can be pulled out of the oil with a magnet.
Bronze will stay suspended.
If you're worried, do an oil change and see what you
find in the oil. Easy way to reassure yourself that nothing
really bad has already gone wrong. Then just keep
an ear open for new noises or changes in behavior.
If you don't already have a magnetic drain plug, you might
see if there's one available and install it when you change
the oil.
Eventually, you'll be due for new clutch plates anyway
and you can have a better look then.
Rob Kleinschmidt
wrote:
> "Rob Kleinschmidt" <Rkleinsch1216...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:e9c3a57c-f9fc-45bd-8e3e-
>
>
>
> > Tear into it if you see metal or if the noise gets louder.
>
> The only safe approach is to switch off the engine and use one of these...http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120494732675.
Awesome!!
I'll bet you get tremendous savings on fuel too.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
wrote:
> You've seen such condition(s)? What caused it?
When engine parts don't get enough oil, they start wearing out. Once
the wear gets through the hardened outer layers of steel parts, they
start wearing really quick.
But we still don't know whether the noise you described has to do with
the
chain and sprockets, or if you still have the noise when the
motorcycle is not in motion.
An old mechanic's trick is to listen to various areas of the engine by
touching it with the tip of a long screwdriver and then putting your
temple against the plastic handle.
If you don't happen to own a large screwdriver like that, a piece of
hardwood dowel
about a foot long works well.
Willie The Wimp
>On Nov 18, 12:52�pm, Willie The Wimp <Cadillac.cof...@screwmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> You've seen such condition(s)? What caused it?
>
>When engine parts don't get enough oil, they start wearing out. Once
>the wear gets through the hardened outer layers of steel parts, they
>start wearing really quick.
Uh-huh.
>But we still don't know whether the noise you described has to do with
>the
>chain and sprockets, or if you still have the noise when the
>motorcycle is not in motion.
You missed part of it:
>>It's not the clutch. Not if you have the lever pulled in..
>
>OK.
>
>A 2nd scenario. I go out the garage, start the bike cold, hold the
>clutch lever in whilst in neutral gear, hear a very similar sort-of
>growling/grinding noise. By the time I roll the bike out the garage
>(maybe 15 seconds), the noise stops. I always try to wait for this
>before shifting to 1st gear (less clunk).
>
>Normal clutch noise?
>An old mechanic's trick is to listen to various areas of the engine by
>touching it with the tip of a long screwdriver and then putting your
>temple against the plastic handle.
>
>If you don't happen to own a large screwdriver like that, a piece of
>hardwood dowel
>about a foot long works well.
I've often used a long socket extension.
Willie The Wimp
wrote:
>> You've seen such condition(s)? What caused it?
>
>My clutch makes noise when it's pulled in. The plates make
>light contact and bang around some.
>
>I've also had bearing failures.
>
>When a bearing cage fails, that also makes noise and
>gets worse, louder and more expensive very quickly. That
>kind of failure shows up as metal in the oil. The metal can
>be as fine as flour paste or later on, sharp beebee size
>chunks. Steel can be pulled out of the oil with a magnet.
>Bronze will stay suspended.
>
>If you're worried, do an oil change and see what you
>find in the oil. Easy way to reassure yourself that nothing
>really bad has already gone wrong. Then just keep
>an ear open for new noises or changes in behavior.
>If you don't already have a magnetic drain plug, you might
>see if there's one available and install it when you change
>the oil.
>
>Eventually, you'll be due for new clutch plates anyway
>and you can have a better look then.
Oil has < 1k miles of use.
For maybe $10 I could replace the filter, dissect the old.
Perhaps I'd better do that.
Thanks,
Willie
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
wrote:
> I've often used a long socket extension.
OK, so you're familiar with the concept. Listen to the sounds coming
from
the clutch cover, the cam cover and the left hand side of the engine
where the starter clutch is located.
Wherever the noise seems to be coming from, pull that cover off and
inspect the mechanisms inside.
The only thing you cannot easily get to is the transmission.
Rob Kleinschmidt
wrote:
> >If you're worried, do an oil change and see what you
> >find in the oil. Easy way to reassure yourself that nothing
> >really bad has already gone wrong.
> Oil has < 1k miles of use.
>
> For maybe $10 I could replace the filter, dissect the old.
> Perhaps I'd better do that.
Do it only if it makes you fell better. Otherwise, just
listen until it's ready for an oil change or something
changes. When you do change the oil, definitely
see what you can capture with a good magnet.
I do disect oil filters, but figure I'm probably a little
obsessive that way. Haven't found anything interesting
in a long time.
Willie The Wimp
wrote:
>> For maybe $10 I could replace the filter, dissect the old.
>> Perhaps I'd better do that.
>
>Do it only if it makes you fell better. Otherwise, just
>listen until it's ready for an oil change or something
>changes. When you do change the oil, definitely
>see what you can capture with a good magnet.
>
>I do disect oil filters, but figure I'm probably a little
>obsessive that way. Haven't found anything interesting
>in a long time.
But you get some peace of mind, having eliminated a multitude
of potential problems.
Thanks,
Willie
Willie The Wimp
>On Nov 19, 1:26?pm, Willie The Wimp <Cadillac.cof...@screwmail.com>
Working solo (only), I can get to anything on the left side while
holding clutch lever in. Worth investigating.
Thanks,
Willie
The Older Gentleman
There is nothing wrong with your clutch. Said it when you first started
bleating; saying it again now.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:56:54 -0800 (PST), ??? ??? ????? ??? <macmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Working solo (only), I can get to anything on the left side while
> holding clutch lever in.
You can always wrap a bungee cord around the clutch lever after you
pull it in, yannow...
Then you will be free to move around the bike. It won't hurt anything
to bungee the lever for a minute or so.
If a seriously loud rattling noise goes away when you pull the clutch
level in, the ball bearing bearing (or bushing) inside the clutch
basket is worn out or the big nut holding the clutch center hub to the
transmission shaft is loose.
However, a certain amount of noise is normal in this design.
Air-cooled clutches are really noisy. If you ever heard a Ducati
clutch rattling, you'd
wonder how the rider could stand all that noise.
Willie The Wimp
wrote:
>There is nothing wrong with your clutch. Said it when you first started
>bleating; saying it again now.
I'm actually inclined to agree with you.
But I'm damned if I have a clue why folks here are failing to suggest
plausible explanations for the conditions I've described.
And there's been some confusion about the precise conditions, so I
here repeat both for clarity:
1.):
Engine warm, accelerate up hill, maybe 35 mph, in 3rd gear. Reach
top, dis-engage clutch, coast down hill in 3rd. with clutch lever
actuated. When I hunker down, I can hear a sort-of growling/grinding
noise.
This is "normal operating noise" for a bike with a wet clutch?
2.):
A 2nd scenario. I go out the garage, start the bike cold, hold the
clutch lever in whilst in neutral gear, hear a very similar sort-of
growling/grinding noise. By the time I roll the bike out the garage
(maybe 15 seconds), the noise stops. I always try to wait for this
before shifting to 1st gear (less clunk).
Normal clutch noise?
In each case, I'm hearing the noise with the clutch lever fully held
in (clutch disengaged). The other day, when I replicated 2.), it
took only about 5 seconds before the noise ceased. If I wait another
maybe 10 seconds, it won't clunk shifting into 1st.
Willie
The Older Gentleman
> And there's been some confusion about the precise conditions, so I
> here repeat both for clarity:
<snip>
Without hearing the damn bike for ourselves, there's no sure way of
knowing. But the former could be clutch rattle or just chain noise and
the latter just clutch rattle.
No worries. It's not a buggered camchain, or a knackered starter motor,
and your transmission isn't about to blow up. Just ride the damn thing.
And when/if it breaks, fix it. In the meantime, stop worrying.
M.Badger
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:16:00 +0000, totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk (The
> Older Gentleman) wrote:
>
>>There is nothing wrong with your clutch. Said it when you first started
>>bleating; saying it again now.
>
> I'm actually inclined to agree with you.
>
> But I'm damned if I have a clue why folks here are failing to suggest
> plausible explanations for the conditions I've described.
>
> And there's been some confusion about the precise conditions, so I
> here repeat both for clarity:
>
> 1.):
> Engine warm, accelerate up hill, maybe 35 mph, in 3rd gear. Reach
> top, dis-engage clutch, coast down hill in 3rd. with clutch lever
> actuated. When I hunker down, I can hear a sort-of growling/grinding
> noise.
>
> This is "normal operating noise" for a bike with a wet clutch?
It isn't unusual to get noises like that. Try snicking neutral. Is the noise
the same?. If so, its final drive. Try 4th. Different noise?.
It may be as simple as the chain/sprockets alignment or tension.
>
> 2.):
> A 2nd scenario. I go out the garage, start the bike cold, hold the
> clutch lever in whilst in neutral gear, hear a very similar sort-of
> growling/grinding noise. By the time I roll the bike out the garage
> (maybe 15 seconds), the noise stops. I always try to wait for this
> before shifting to 1st gear (less clunk).
>
> Normal clutch noise?
Yeah, my Bandit does similar.
<fx:wavy lines of time>
Many many years ago, during a prolonged period of sub zero temperatures, I
left my girlfriends and started my bike up with it on its centrestand
whilst I had a cigarrete. The rear wheel was merrily rotating away when an
elderly gentleman sidled up. 'Oh shit, here goes another 'when I were a
lad' type monologue. 'Nice to see you take the time to warm the oil up.
When the back wheel stops turning, your oil is warm enough for you to
ride.'
Cold oil causes a lot of drag. Cold clutch plates stick to the metal plates,
effectively only giving partial disengagement, hence the clunk. Let
everything warm up a bit before setting off.
</fx>
> In each case, I'm hearing the noise with the clutch lever fully held
> in (clutch disengaged).
The clutch is riding on its release bearing. Some of these are a bit noisy.
> The other day, when I replicated 2.), it
> took only about 5 seconds before the noise ceased. If I wait another
> maybe 10 seconds, it won't clunk shifting into 1st.
>
>
> Willie
Someone up there said about magnetic sump plugs and cutting the filter.
Can't argue with that. You will get some very fine metal particles adhering
to the magnet. Almost a powder. Nowt to worry about. In your oil filter,
you may find some clutch material. Again, nowt to worry about.
Bronze coloured metal not good. Shavings not good. If it really bothers you,
get someone else to ride it whose opinion you hold in high regard. If the
clutch disengages OK, rides in its friction zone OK and doesn't slip with
the lever all the way out and all the gears engage smoothly when the engine
is warm and the oil fresh, just wear earplugs.